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back to top70 Comments to “Whirled Views”
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts and prayers for my wife who had surgery for breast cancer this week. The surgeon is confident that the cancer was completely removed and that there would be no long term effects. Praise God!
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Xion, I pray the surgeon will be proven correct and that your wife will recover quickly.
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A few months ago I mentioned the little girl across the street who comes over with her brother to play with my son. One day she asked for a snack and said there was no food in her house. I didn’t think too much about it, as she has a reputation of fibbing and even the best child will exaggerated when a pop tart is a stake. Still I generally give them a snack when they are over here. Well, the last time after they had gone home, I noticed food missing that I hadn’t given them. My son said the little girl ate it. Now I am worried that they are really are going hungry. Is any one out there a social worker who would know the signs of neglect I should look for?
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Xion, may God bless your wife and the rest of the family.
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Xion, out thoughts and prayers are with you.
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kBells, just note the little girl’s cleanliness level (both her clothes and her hair, etc.), how quickly the general small cuts and scrapes that children pick up from playing heal on her, and her body size proporionate to her age and the size of her parents.
how often do you see her parents around? are they having marital problems? – because being wrapped up in their own problems can cause unintentional neglect
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kBells,
Not a social worker but I have dealt with them and many children. First a warning, be careful of calling in the social workers and child neglect and abuse are very real things. The first part of the warning is because we need to be aware that neglect in one person’s view is not necessarily neglect (not feeding a child hot dogs and macaroni is not neglect, it is personal choice) and in the second part because true neglect does exist in a lot of children’s lives.
Some warning signs (and just because a sign is there, does not mean neglect is certain and the parents need to be hauled off):
hygiene, does the child continually show up reeking of urine or clothes that have not been washed in weeks? Is the child always dirty with unwashed hair (not like she has been playing outside dirty)? Untreated head lice (anybody can get head lice but if left untreated, problems can develop)?
food: Does the child hoard (take food home in case of famine)? Is the child always hungry (for real food as well, not just twinkies)? Is the child lethargic, lacking in energy to be a child?
emotional response: does the child hit other children regularly? does the child cower when there is yelling? does the child yell at others? does the child yell profanities (more than the occasional trial word)? is the child overly affectionate? unwilling to have human contact at all?
sexual acting out: is the child verbally describing things she ought not to know about? is she touching other children or adults in a way we all know she shouldn’t be? is she using terms she ought not to know?
These are all POSSIBLE signs and if there are several, perhaps you need to take further steps. In the meantime, do offer them healthy food and drink (fruit, water, milk, real juice, etc). Do try to get the family over so you can get to know the parents and see how they interact with the kids. Do try to learn if the kids have food allergies that you should be careful not to feed them, or medical reasons not to be eating everything at your house. Actually, that is a good intro into the family, trying to get food issue answers.
Calling CPS at the first sign can cause problems and end any influence you may have with the family. People generally don’t want their neighbors accusing them of child neglect and will not forget it soon. CPS does not generally intervene unless the neglect is significant so if it there is something you can help with, it is better to step up to the plate than to force the children into the emotional trauma of foster care. On the other hand, if there is real concern, the child’s safety does come in.
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kbells is it possible that you are far enough removed from the parents that you could send a gift card to a local grocery store and they would not associate it with you? Or is it possible you could find a way to leave food for them that they wouldn’t know it came from you. Maybe they truly don’t have any food and don’t know who to turn to. I was in a girls club as a teenager with a girl whose family lived off eggs for almost a year because the did not have enough money. No one knew it at the time.
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Thanks for all your prayers. Our first grandchild, Michael Robert, was born last night at 9:12. Mom is doing very well–which is such a relief after a difficult and risky pregnancy.
And we are awed, too, that my daughter-in-law’s sister successfully gave birth to an unnamed daughter in Spokane, two hours before! Talk about excitement for their parents (who were with us)!
We’re humbled and praise God this morning for the miracle of birth. Just hearing those first cries always brings tears to my eyes–even when it’s not my baby–so I cried quite a bit on that labor deck yesterday!
And of course, he’s an absolutely beautiful baby.
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Here is a question for you all. There is a little girl that was in Chloe’s 1st grade class an is now in her 4th grade class. For two yrs she was in the class of a friend of mine’s daughter. The child has ben suspected of stealing and has stirred up trouble among the girls. Two weeks ago my niece came to a rolling stop at a stop sign and pulled out in front of this little girls mother, grandmother, and the child was in the car. When the police got there they arrested the mother on outstanding warrants for public drunkeness, DUI, and drug charges. Last Friday Chloe and this little girl got on the phone and planned a trip to a local bookstore. My ex-husband went to the house to pick the little girl up. No one came out to meet him or anything. He was quite upset and told Chloe she could not go to this child’s house to play that the child would have to come to our house. I personally don’t want the child at my house because Chloe and I live alone and I don’t want the mother to know where I live. I don’t trust addicts and I don’t want her coming to my house looking for money to get a fix. My instinct is to tell Chloe she can’t have anything to do with this child, but I realize this isn’t very kind of me towards an innocent child. How do I explain things to Chloe and how to I protect the two of us. The good news is that I nor my ex-mil nor ex-sil killed my ex-husband over this. (can’t you imangine there will be a lawsuit from the accident?)
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JVP swoops in to nab the cash! Back to the Future is correct. What will you buy with your digital cash?…
$$$$
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Michelle, congratulations. I have a friend who let me go into delivery with her several years ago. I pushed and pushed but was unable to make any progress. When Logan was born I cried and gushed. I called my then husband to tell him how fantastic it was and he said “It’s not like you haven’t had a baby” I had to explain that it is totally different when it isn’t you but you get to be a part of it. I imagine that is how you feel. God’s Blessings on both babies.
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This is a momentary update. I’m with a state-wide Student Congress event — we’re having a lot of fun, and the kids are great. But they’re also using the computer for research, and so — well, if you missed my voice, that’s why. More on bio, later.
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Here’s something fun. Want to know how many people in the US share your name? http://howmanyofme.com/
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So, Michelle, are you a grandmother, grandma, gramma, granny, Michelle, or what?
Congratulations and enjoy!
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Oh I like MeMe.
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kbells – Some of the others comments above have been good on signs.
One I didn’t see yet is the child being innappropriately dressed (shorts and no coat in cold weather or very warm clothes in hot weather).
None of the signs noted are conclusive by any means, but consistently seeing a few of them raises reasonable suspicions.
My son used to get questioned a lot about the bruises (and cuts) he always had. He was regularly explaining that he got them playing hockey.
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krm,
In the circles of children I deal with, talking about “e” is a reference to ecstasy the drug. When my nieces at a family reunion were talking about “e” my antennae went up. I hesitated bringing it up to brother and sis in law as they are both, shall we say, naive about troubled kids. Anyway, I broached the subject with dad, asking if he thought I should ask or drop it. He talked with my brother about it and learned it was the girl’s reference to excedrin, headache medicine. I was relieved and it opened up the communication with brother and sis and nieces, they welcomed my concern and learned a bit about some other ways of life. One does not want to pry but then one does not want to read about a child death in the papers, wonder why nobody intervened, and realize one had been given the opportunity.
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Xion,
I amen the prayers for your wife’s continued healing and to uphold you as well.
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Michelle,
That is SO cool!!!
Imagine both daughters giving birth within two hours of each other. God is so neat.
What will the grandchildren call you and your husband? And the other set of grandparents?
I know one set of grandparents that are “Lolly” and “Pop”. Isn’t that cute? Mimi is popular these days. I wonder if I’ll be Nana. I’d willingly be Nana.
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RN: I just read your post for me from the WV of a couple of days ago. I really appreciate that you have kept your word and are reading Who Made God? – nowadays it’s difficult to find those who actually do what they say they are going to do. I imagine that it must be a neat feeling to read and reflect on Puget Sound Ferries! I look forward to your final thoughts after you finish the book.
In your post to me, were you hinting that you’d like to have my e-mail address?
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#22 Key,
Thank you for your reply. I try not to sweat the small stuff (in between bouts of getting very bent out of shape of trivialities). Whether someone posts under an anonymous name, or whether they list a working email, is not a big matter. However, when I actually do what I say I will (probably about 60% of the time–so when someone catches me on a good day, as you did, I like to be sure I can brag to them), and on wmb it’s easier if they have an email. I keep emails private, and I could list all the emails of people who have told me indiscreet things…except, well, I can’t, can I? This virtue thing is such a drag.
Anyway, if you want to be notified when I finish reading the book and will report on it, you can send me your email to eman_modnar@yahoo.com.
I am impressed by the book so far (though not converted). It’s sort of an all-star team of evangelical Christian apologetics.
I was a little confused at first, not realizing that the names listed on the cover are as much editors of the book as writers of it. So I can see they are pulling out all the stops and I am reading it slowly with careful attention (though my bad attitude is fully present and on alert).
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mumsee – Was your comment addressed to me intended for me?
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krm,
In reference to your son’s bruises being questioned, one often does not know whether to bring up such questions or not. Just relating my own little quandary over that. In most of our lives children with bruises got the bruises in the normal way, there are a few who got them in more violent ways from those who should be doing everything to protect the child. Those of us who have seen both sides hesitate to ask as we do not want to offend but we do know it happens and do not want to be party to letting it continue. Nothing personal, just trying to show the difficulty, goes along with kBells question, one does not want to pry, but neither does one want the child to needlessly suffer. I thought you made good points.
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RN – for your private collection: hkoebele7@yahoo.com
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mumsee – That makes sense to me now.
In our case, the school teachers were always very good at going about their inquiries (keeping the right balance of looking but not going overboard). I think the typical hockey player reaction to such a question helped (”Oh, this one? I got this one against the Leafs. I really got clocked in the corner. But I got him back later!” versus the sort of typical reaction and response from those who were abused)
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Michelle – Congratulations to you and your husband on the birth of your first grandchild. It’s an incredible, indescribable event and I’m so very grateful for having experienced this blessing. There is nothing to compare!
Enjoy!
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I’m no expert, but I’d think that if a child was asked about an injury, whether or not his answer was in keeping with his normal level of volubility would be a good indicator.
For example, if one of my more verbal kids was asked about a certain mark on his body, you’d probably hear an extended narrative about exactly what he was doing, what day it was, how he fell, which of his parents or siblings put the bandaid on, how soon it stopped hurting, etc. And that’s the normal interaction pattern for that child. If you normally have a child who’s pretty talkative, and you ask him, “What did you do to your arm,” and you get an answer like, “Um, I fell and hurt it” followed by an immediate clam up, that would make me more uneasy, I think. OTOH, if you have a more reserved child who normally keeps his answers brief and he comes out with an elaborate, canned-sounding story, I’d worry about that, too.
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Pentamom,
Very true, yet another reason to get to know the child and not take the first clue as absolute evidence.
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When Chloe was small she kept bruises. Her preschool teacher told me that if Chloe didn’t fall and get hurt as much at school as she did she would have called DHR on me. We laughed and she promised not to call them on me and I promised not to call them on her. George and I discussed this and laughed. A few days later he had her in the grocery store when she asked him ‘Daddy, why you beat me?’ Did I mention he wrote a check for what he was buying. When he came home and told me I said great! They have our name and address, so I went to all the neighbors and told them what Chloe had said to her daddy in the grocery store. If DHR ever did investigate me, I never knew it.
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Congratulations, Michelle! So cool.
Just dropping in to see what’s happening today, but as I mentioned a couple days ago, I’m busily preparing to get foster kids on Monday (the same two girls I had a few months ago), so y’all aren’t my first priority right now. Sorry.
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Considering one of the main topics today–the consideration of how signs of “neglect” or “abuse” might reflect the real thing or might have a perfectly ordinary and harmless explanation, I conclude that some of you are likely to convert yourselves to if not “radical” at least “low” agnosticism on your own if I just stay quite (shhhh) and leave you to your own devices.
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Random Name,
Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha. Whew, heh hehhhehehhoooooohhahahahhahhahahh.
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mumsee,
Are you OK? You could hurt yourself doing that.
OK, just as qwerty qualified for very high agnosticism–turbo agnosticism I call it–I think you can join as a very low agnostic–we call this the “Don’t take any wooden nickels” denomination.
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Clueless wonder not meant to reproduce despite high IQ (if theory of evolution is true
MIT Coed With Fake Bomb ‘Art’ Arrested
By GLEN JOHNSON – 1 hour ago
BOSTON (AP) — Troopers arrested an MIT student at gunpoint Friday after she walked into Logan International Airport wearing a computer circuit board and wiring on her sweatshirt. Authorities call it a fake bomb; she called it art.
Star Simpson’s attorney said the charges against her were an overreaction, but authorities expressed amazement that someone would wear such a device eight months after a similar scare in Boston, and six years after two of the jets hijacked in the Sept. 11 attacks took off from Logan.
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Xion, I wish you and your wife luck. That certainly was good news. Thank goodness for modern medicine. By the way I think you meant “Praise the surgeon” or maybe “Praise scientific progress”, not “Praise God!”. Just kidding. Good luck!
It’s interesting how difficult it is to ignore religion in a very religious country like America. At work, the last place I would expect to hear anything about religion, I got reminded about the strange beliefs people have twice today. (I used to make big money designing and coding software, but after a 8 year vacation my skills became obsolete so now I got a low paying job that fortunately I enjoy very much.) At work I process large amounts of mail, process checks that were sent, and assemble the product that was ordered, the whole thing takes one minute per customer.
Today I got in the mail a card that told me Jesus loves me and cares for me. That was a big surprise because I thought the Jesus preacher decomposed long ago.
Then later one of the many Christians I work with asked me some uninvited questions. Here’s the conversation I didn’t want:
What’s your religion?
“I don’t have any.”
What’s your parents religion?
“Mom was Catholic. Dad was a fake Catholic.”
Why aren’t you Catholic? Don’t you believe in God?
“I don’t even know what that is.”
That’s sad. Who do you think made you?
“My mommy and daddy made me.”
But how do explain all your (then she listed a few internal organs including the heart)?
“All that is the result of 4 billion years of evolution.”
Then I tried to end the conversation because we were suppose to be working. Now she’s going to bring to work a book of lies for me to read, some anti-science book about evolution.
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I didn’t see any mention of the speech by the Mayor of San Diego. It was beautiful!
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Xion – I praise God with you!
Qwerty – You’re kind of pathetic you know that?
You have to take something like this situation with Xion and his wife and make it all about you, don’t you?
And what does luck have to do with it? Wishing someone “good luck” is certainly a form of superstition, don’t you agree?
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Ahhh, Ed, be patient with her. She’s trying to be nice, but is obviously misguided. Just politely tell her you’re not interested, but hope you can still remain productive at work. Good luck!
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VS, you deluded, know-nothing, worthless, immoral, disgrace to your religion, person. I wished Xion luck and you find a problem with that. You are worse than pathetic and I wish you would choose another target to harass.
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Hamachi, the Christian who asked me all those questions I consider to be a very good friend of mine. I’m surrounded by anti-science Christians at work and I consider all of them to the best friends I ever had. Most of them don’t know how anti-religious I am and I hope to keep it that way.
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VS, that was pretty snarky, given Ed’s nice comments to Xion. Ed, don’t let her bait you. It isn’t worth it.
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Oh yeah Hamachi, tell me about snarky after you read Ed’s # 41 post to me, which is only a repeat of maybe a 100 other identical posts he’s made to me.
He’s mentally unbalanced and he was totally out of line to say that to Xion – if you or him can’t see that, your failing.
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Well, VS, if you don’t like being reminded about how you use the Bible as a weapon to insult people with, and how you in the past came out strongly in favor of Christian men yelling at elderly female science teachers, then I suggest you simply leave me alone. I certainly don’t intend to initiate a conversation with the most immoral person here – you.
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any exaggerated form of emotions — lethargy, withdrawn or overexhubert is usual a sigh something is amiss. The standard lack of hygiene, dirty clothes etc is the most evident. A look into something children’s eyes causes me discomfort when all I get is a blank dull response.
qwerty
you’re too serious. if someone at work raises religious issues refer to god in the female pronoun. It usually throws them off long enough for you to change the topic or excuse yourself.
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“qwerty you’re too serious”
You would not have thought that if you were there. Me and my good Christian friend were just having fun with each other. I’m lucky to work with such wonderful people. It’s like we are all one big happy family.
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Kim 11,
I have been concerned about your other child all day but leaving it for others to respond to. What I will say, please take it for what it is, my opinion based on years of working with troubled kids and their often addicted parents. It is not an attack on you, I am only responding because God has given me the desire to reach out to children from the womb to the tomb.
Many times, children of addicts have to learn to parent themselves. They make the rules. That may include dishonesty, stealing, eating whenever and whatever they want, dressing however they choose, etc. But they are children and, though they may seem to resent it at first, they are desperate for somebody to trust that will take control for them. Mom and/or dad is usually too ui to notice their needs.
Addicted parents tend to be manipulative and some are violent. Many will ask for money, you decline (the very first time, do not show pity) and then go elsewhere. Some will persist, be firm. They are not usually interested in attacking the people helping their children.
If, and that is only if, God has called you into a new ministry as your Chloe gets older, that of helping the unfortunate ones, then you are in the perfect set up to proceed. But He does not call all to the same ministry. As I have said before, I am called to certain broken ones He brings into my life, Michelle works at a pc clinic, hrw teaches, donato engineers, Cheryl edits and takes foster kids. This may be an opportunity for you to learn something about some folks, teach Chloe about compassion in a different way. It may not. That is between you and God.
If you can open your life to this little one, you will be blessed but it will be difficult. She will need the rules made known and enforced. She will need your acceptance for her where she is. She will need you to follow up on what you tell her. If you tell her she can go with you to the park, make sure it is okay with her folks and do it. Show her you can be trusted and Who knows what she may become as she learns that she too is made in the image of God.
Ex husband is quite right that Chloe should not be there alone and if you can, please try to offer this little troubled one the love you have been given in Christ. But if not, guard your own little one.
It maybe that God will be opening the door for you to minister to the mom as well, are you ready for that? He will provide what you need if He calls you to it.
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Thanks guys, on the advice. Luckily I haven’t seen any of the other signs suggested. I didn’t see much of them today. They usually just show up at the door. They came by this afternoon, but I had to send them home because my son was grounded for trying to following them home yesterday.
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qwerty, I understand the workplace and your friendship feel awkward now. It’s really a shame she introduced it. Not very professional, although I could see it coming up in casual conversation if she thinks of you as a buddy too. It’s a tough situation where you don’t want to hurt your friend’s feelings, but at the same time you need to be honest about your lack of belief in magical beings. Make it clear that you value her friendship. If she is insistent, perhaps you could trade books and discuss them. Then you would be doing your part to at least see why she feels so strongly about her beliefs, and you would have a chance to help her. Just a thought. Keep us posted.
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Hamachi, you misunderstand which is probably my fault. Nothing could harm my friendship with the team I work with. I do try to avoid talking about religion there, but it’s pointless to pretend religion is never going to come up. Most of these people are extremely religious, the exact opposite of me, but I could never feel awkward with them. The pay is terrible but this is the most enjoyable job I ever had. These people who are so much different from me about one subject, religion, are a joy to work with. Nobody there takes anything seriously enough to cause any problem. I actually look forward to reading the anti-evolution book I expect to be loaned soon. I wouldn’t spend my own money on a book of lies, but it will be interesting to see what anti-science authors are up to these days.
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Hamachi and qwerty,
Why do I feel mocked? (Said in a very amused voice)
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I could never mock you mumsee. I have learned you’re an ok person.
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whew!
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Ed,
If you said the kind of things you say to us at your workplace, I believe you’d quickly dissolve your friendships.
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Make It Man, yeah, one thing nice about the internet, it makes it possible to be completely honest. I’m not likely to tell the wonderful team I work with they are nuts. It’s difficult to point out to people they are crazy when they are constantly helping me with problems at work. However, if I was completely honest with them, I don’t think it would matter with these people. They just don’t take anything seriously. I never heard so much laughter, including my own, at a work place before.
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Mumsee, I agree with qwerty. You are ok by me, and I think highly of you. I’m sorry you would feel mocked. Please don’t infer the discussion about a belief system with many variants is directed at you. It isn’t easy being an out atheist in our country. Especially in a workplace where you are there to earn your living, not be converted to a religion, or questioned why you don’t believe in Gods. Often I read about prejudice against Christians on this blog, but the truth is it is much more difficult to be accepted in our culture if you are an unbeliever.
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Anyone seen this speech by the Republican form San Diego?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PrGNhczw9U
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Xion,
May God be with you and yours.
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Make It Man: “… the kind of things you say to us …”
I really don’t have to say anything about the strangeness of Christians, because the entire continent of Europe is doing that for me.
From Ireland: And the Lord didst create idiots, and lo he saw it was terrible…
I especially liked what this article said about the Bible: “Normally, the idea that a book of fairy tales as muddled, meandering and frankly stupid as the Bible is scientifically exact and proper could safely be laughed out of any rational debate.”
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The following material is interesting:
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/study-says-hobbit-not-a-modern-human/20070921215709990001
If it stands up to scrutiny, and it looks like it will this time, then we have yet another case of a different type of humans coexisting on earth with modern humans, in this case only about 18,000 years ago.
The description of the evolutionary development of humans is becoming ever more interesting and elegant!
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Patience is a virtue.
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Thank you mumsee. I am just having a hard time with my personal feelings on this matter. I want Chloe to be open to all different people. I just don’t want to personally deal with an addict. My wants and desires are clouding my judgement.
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Kim,
I certainly understand and I do not advise getting involved with addicts beyond good neighborliness unless God is specifically directing. They carry a lot of burdens and challenges most of us never imagine. Without God’s help and a strong support group, a person could quickly get in over her head.
In a lot of addict homes (at least with meth) porn and sexual mis conduct go right along side. Either because the parents inhibitions are gone or because of the fellow users in the home. I do not know to what extent, if any, this woman is an addict, but unless you know for sure that she is not one, Chloe ought not to be at her house alone.
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Thanks for that information Musing. I have been very interested in this debate scientists have been having about this amazing discovery. For creationists who think every debate is evidence against evolution, they are wrong as usual. The question here is whether or not “Hobbit” is a separate human species. No scientist, who doubts Hobbit is a different species, also doubts humans developed from other animals. It’s a well known fact there were several species of humans and we are the only human ape species to survive. The debate is whether or not Homo floresiensis is one of those many human species. The recent analysis of the wrist bones support the idea this was a separate species and what is wonderful and interesting is this species shared our planet with us only 18,000 years ago. That means before 30,000 years ago when the Neanderthals went extinct, there were at least 3 different human species on earth. Before that there were even more. The Human Family Tree Has Become a Bush With Many Branches
Meanwhile some extremely deluded people believe the entire universe is 6,000 years old, and everything is the result of supernatural magic.
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Not the result of magic, #65, but the result of God’s handiwork. Isn’t it a wonderful thing to observe!
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#45 – I don’t use the Bible as a weapon with you – I’ve used several verses from the Bible to tell you what your Creator says about people who claim He doesn’t exist. He says you’re a fool. So get angry with me; I don’t care.
And your constant ranting about the Christians “yelling at an elderly science teacher” – get over it. Do you know how silly you sound?
Good grief.
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VS post 67,
but of course quoting Bible verses to someone who does not hold your view of the Bible is perhaps akin to shouting down a well.
If one is to have a conversation or discussion, then it needs to be held on mutually accepted assumptions OR it needs to be a discussion trying to understand how ones assumptions differ.
My sense is either we can generate heat or light. Too often these discussion degenerate into generating only heat.
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Well see how it is Musing. Qwerty (Ed) isn’t interested in a discussion with any Christian as he’s too busy calling us stupid morons. (And I have the special label of “most immoral religious person on this blog”).
I happen to believe the Bible is the Word of God, and thus I believe it will not return void. It’s nothing to me to PROVE to Q/Ed that he’s a fool. The Word says it and as far as I’m concerned, in this situation, that’s that. If Qwerty had genuine questions, that would be a different matter entirely but we all know he’s only here to attack and promote his own atheistic agenda. And I personally believe he’s so violently vocal about it because he does know deep down within his heart, that God is true and every man (who says otherwise) is a liar and a fool.
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VSD post 69,
but I suggest your vociferousness is not that low a decibel level either.
So I fully understand what you believe.
And you and qwerty do not believe the same thing regarding the Bible.
I have not enquired of you regarding your beliefs on objecive data so I can not comment directly here.
If you do believe in objective data and evidence (we can discuss what is meant by these terms if you like), then there is a quandry: qwerty is arguing from objective evidence and data, and if you accept objective evidence and data you are in a tough position of arbitrarily rejecting his evidence.
qwerty does not accept the Bible as a valid source, and he is perfectly consistent to reject any arguments you make based on it.
There is possibly an assymetry in the situation, but if there is an assymetry, then it appears to be an assymetry based on your assumption set possibly being more complex and complicated than qwerty’s assumption set.
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