Atheists…not so much
Today, some 5 million Americans claim to be atheists — and they’re coming out of the closet. Throw in the agnostics, and you have 20 million godless. In this week’s WORLD, Gene Edward Veith notes that though the number of declared godless is increasing, their standing has not increased: A University of Minnesota poll last year found that atheists were America’s most distrusted group. According to a recent Newsweek poll, 62 percent of Americans would refuse to vote for an atheist running for president.
As a result, atheists allege a whole host of slights, hostility, and civil-rights violations. And so many atheists are trying to do what homosexuals did when they pulled off one of the biggest public-relations coups in history, in part by rebranding themselves as “gay.” Atheists are calling themselves “brights.”
When people start talking about their religion and some say, “I’m a Christian,” or “I’m a Muslim,” an atheist may say, “I’m a bright.” We can then anticipate “equal rights for brights” and measures forbidding discrimination against “bright Americans.”
The problem for atheists, though, is that the term may not do them much good. That they think of themselves as “bright” grows out of their self-image. If atheists think they are bright while the rest of us are stupid, their opinion will probably alienate the public more than their views on God.




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back to top166 Comments to “Atheists…not so much”
I’d like to see more of them BeRight in their views of God.
(BeRight is another way of saying bright. I figured it out all by myself.)
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I’m not going to claim any direct expertise on this, but I do imagine it must be difficult to find a like-minded atheist gal to marry up with if you’re an atheist dude. I’m sure there are dating services out there for the nontheisticly inclined, but I suspect most atheists are quite lonely folks.
Some years back I heard a radio talk host named Tom Lykis boast of his atheism. He seemed insincere to be honest. He boasted about having lotsa of girlfriends and perhaps he was able to do that, but I doubt any one gal would ever be his partner for life (ie wife).
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Lynn – Your original heading to this thread got me all excited – I see you had a change of mind.
“…their opinion will probably alienate the public more than their views on God.”
I think that’s already happened.
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Bright Atheists…
World MagBlog reports:
Today, some 5 million Americans claim to be atheists — and they’re coming out of the closet.
Quoting from a linked-to article:
As a result, atheists allege a whole host of slights, hostility, and civil-rights violat…
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Hey, WorldMagBlog is open to trackbacks. Neat-o! (I wonder how long that will last.)
VS, do you remember the original post title. I noticed it was different but can’t remember how it used to be. Maybe something along the lines of Not So Bright Atheists?
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I do remember it, but don’t want to give it away in case Lynn changed it for a particular reason!
What are trackbacks?
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Atheists lonely? Even if it’s true, is that a reason to become a Christian? Maybe it’s equal to the type of suffereing that Christans like to do. I have dated plenty of people who beleived in god. I don’t think mere beleif in god is a deal breaker whatsoever. Maybe that’s just my circle, I dunno. I have also dated a republican from time to time, in fact, dating one right now.
I find that many Christians, maybe not the right winger type, don’t read the Bible or understand any of the tough questions, they just believe becuase it’s all they’ve ever been exposed to thoughtout their lives. If you want to count them amongst your team members, please do. Most atheists on the otherhand, were not raised atheist, but rather, rejected religion for whatever reason.
Any ideas why atheists, smart well educated articulate atheists, don’t beleive? Do you think they are stupid? If possible, don’t use scripture in your arguement. It’s like using the word in the defination of the same word.
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While the more militant atheists make more noise, I’d posit there are many more who sit in the pew each Sunday;p folks who are ‘functional unbelievers.’ The faith they profess has little or no impact on how life is lived or choices made. Bits and pieces of biblical teaching is chosen to support an essentially atheist world view.
As for dating and marriage; the ‘princess’ of one congregration was going to marry a young man who said he was not a Christian and had no intent of exploring Christianity. The pastor did not want to marry them, but was forced to under the threat of losing his job.
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Hard to imagine a self respecting atheist calling him or herself a “bright”. Absolutely new categories of silliness.
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Hey, CoyoteBlue, I’m with you.
And BTW, re the dating and marriage thing–I know lots of married couples who are at least agnostics. I don’t get how being a Christian per se would make you any more attractive to anyone but another Christian, and it would be only one of many factors. For example, I’ve known a lot of Christian guys I’d never have considered marrying.
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Atheists are calling themselves “brights.”
Actually nobody is doing that. This was one of Dawkins’ dumber ideas. Nobody else thought it was a good idea.
Most atheists don’t call themselves anything. Most of them never waste their time (like I do) talking about the fact there is no magic man. Most atheists ignore religions because they think it’s a waste of time to pay attention to nonsense.
If atheists call themselves anything, they call themselves an atheist, which means “not a theist”. Atheist also is another word for “not insane”, and “not insane” would be a good substitute for the word “atheist”.
Holy Roller: “Do you believe in God?”
Atheist: “No, I’m not insane.”
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Just when you thought they couldn’t get more condescending, they call themselves “brights.”
I suppose that makes us “dims.” I’ll take it; after all, the Bible does talk about “the foolishness of preaching.”
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Stubob, please see the comment just before yours. The “Brights” nonsense, invented by Dawkins, is ignored by everyone else. I’m a frequent visitor of atheist blogs and science blogs, and not once have I ever heard the word “Brights” being used. Atheists call themselves atheists.
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I learned long ago, whenever some stranger starts babbling to me about jesus stupidity, to never tell them I’m atheist. If I told them I’m an atheist (which means “not insane”) they would ask me “what happened to you?” and then they would start lying to me about evolution and everything else. Instead of getting into boring discussions with insane holy rollers pushing their jesus myth, I just say “excuse me, got to go”.
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Pfft, and that 62% is made up of Christians who irrationally distrust anyone who doesn’t share their worldview.
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“As a result, atheists allege a whole host of slights, hostility, and civil-rights violations.”
That would be very rare. Virtually all atheists keep quiet about their non-belief in stupidity. If nobody knows they are an atheist, they are not likely to be a victim of discrimination. It’s likely some of the current candidates for president are atheists who have enough sense to pretend they are magic man believers. They don’t want to lose the votes of the vast number of insane holy rollers in god-soaked America.
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The atheists I have known usually describe themselves as “not religious”.
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#7 “Any ideas why atheists, smart well educated articulate atheists, don’t beleive?”
Based on personal observation of people I’ve known over the years, I’d say that at least one reason some people don’t believe is because they don’t want to, often because of stuff from their past. Since kids tend to picture God as being like their parents, it’s not surprising that some people choose not to believe. Most of the atheists and agnostics I’ve been exposed to had problematic relationships with their dads (although this wasn’t always obvious on a surface level) or came from very chaotic families. Some came from very legalistic backgrounds (”rules without relationship breed rebellion”). I don’t know that childhood environment is the main reason for everyone, but it does seem to be a major factor in those people I’ve known–and these people aren’t necessarily a representative sample.
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I personally turned away from God for a while. I had been to a hellfire and brimstone Christian school where everything was evil, music was backmasked, rosaries and crucifixes were possessed of the devil, we had to sign a contract not to go to movies and not to listen to certain radio stations. Do you realize what is left to do if you are a teenager and can’t listen to music, can’t go to a movie, etc. Thousand wonders only two girls I went to school with got pregnant. Eventually I found the Episcopal church where they told me God loved me. What an interesting concept. You mean God isn’t some white robed white haired old cuss moving us around like pieces on a chessboard and tripping me up so that my life is hell???? Oh my God (literally) tell me more???? I think sometimes Christians make it too hard to share the love of God. I eventually came back to God and have a stronger belief than I ever had before.
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Most atheists I know:
1) had parents who were believers and who were either a) way to the right like Kim describes, or b) were total hypocrites who claimed to be Christians, but who were horrible parents
2) had parents who were atheists and never taught their children differently. Then, when the person went off to college, their belief shifted to include “being better” and “being more educated” than theists. But, the honest truth is that they’ve never even examined the issues fairly.
3) are mad at God for some reason (an unfair death, a terrible illness, the loss of a child….)and are “atheists” only because they are so mad at God that they “pretend” He isn’t there.
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Oh TRS I am so glad you mentioned the ones who are angry with God. I recently ended a relationship with a man who was a Christian, sang in the church choir etc. Until his father died. (the guy I dated was 19 when his dad died). He is still angry with God that the father died and there were unresolved issues. After we broke up he asked me to go to councelling with him and I agreed thinking I could at least get him in the door and let the therapist take over after we got there. It never happened.
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I have a theory that multi-paragraph posts are blocked by the blog so this will be one unbroken paragraph. Sorry about that. On this subject I can only speak from my own experience. I’ve never known any atheist or agnostic who referred to him/herself as a “bright.” I remember reading about this new pop term a few years ago. It never caught on as far as I can tell. Silly to write about it so long after the fact. As for being distrusted, I haven’t experienced that at all. On the contrary. My religious neighbor lady who knew full well that I don’t believe in God chose me over every one of her church friends and relatives to execute her large estate after her death. She thought they wanted her money. She knew I was a friend. My religious mother calls me, not my religious sister and her husband, when she really needs help. She knows she can count on us. My wife’s Catholic brother and his very Catholic wife chose us to take guardianship of their 3 young daughters should something happen to them, in spite of us being the only un-believers in our large family. We are far from lonely and isolated. We have good friends from many backgrounds and religious traditions. Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, Protestant, Buddhist, and Muslim. Probably others. One who went through a voo-doo phase after spending some time in Haiti. We don’t scoff at them, and they don’t try to preach their mysticism to us. It works out fine. There are so many other things in life that we have in common that it seldom comes up. Occasionally we have really fun discussions about religion in general. I have faith that they are learning. We even host a big Christmas party for our friends and family every year. Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate. I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough.
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On this subject I can only speak from my own experience. I’ve never known any atheist or agnostic who referred to him/herself as a “bright.” I remember reading about this new pop term a few years ago. It never caught on as far as I can tell. Silly to write about it so long after the fact.
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I had a longer post that was blocked. I will submit it in tiny bits. I apologize if it looks like I am posting many comments. It was supposed to be in one easy to scroll past comment.
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As for being distrusted, I haven’t experienced that at all. On the contrary. My religious neighbor lady who knew full well that I don’t believe in God chose me over every one of her church friends and relatives to execute her large estate after her death. She thought they wanted her money. She knew I was a friend. My religious mother calls me, not my religious sister and her husband, when she really needs help. She knows she can count on us. My wife’s Catholic brother and his very Catholic wife chose us to take guardianship of their 3 young daughters should something happen to them, in spite of us being the only un-believers in our large family.
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We are far from lonely and isolated. We have good friends from many backgrounds and religious traditions. Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, Protestant, Buddhist, and Muslim. Probably others. One who went through a voo-doo phase after spending some time in Haiti. We don’t scoff at them, and they don’t try to preach their mysticism to us. It works out fine. There are so many other things in life that we have in common that it seldom comes up. Occasionally we have really fun discussions about religion in general. I have faith that they are learning. We even host a big Christmas party for our friends and family every year.
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Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate. I had several religious girlfriends who wanted to get married before I finally met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection for Xmas
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough. We send our kids to a top notch secular private school. We don’t take them to church, although they sometimes get to go with their grandparents or with a friend. We talk about it afterwards. A broad experience base is essential to raising a well rounded person.
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Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate. I had several religious girlfriends who wanted to get married before I finally met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection for Xmas
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough.
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Now the posts are getting blocked or eaten by the blog-monkey.
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Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate. I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough.
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Someone up above said it must be difficult for an atheist to find a mate.
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I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection
No thanks. Over the years she has come to describe herself as agnostic. I’m proud of her for being able to admit that she doesn’t know. Many people aren’t strong enough.
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I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene! All that incense and up and down wore me out and gave me a sinus infection
No thanks.
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I had several girlfriends who wanted to get married before I met my wife, who was Catholic at the time. I even went to Mass with her family once. What a scene!
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#18, can’t you say the same thing about Christians, they believe because they want to beleive? They can’t exist without thinking that there is some purpose here on earth, some reason to be here. It’s scary to think you could be here alone, I agree.
I know you’re only talking from your experience, but I can tell you that from my experience, an atheist makes the tough decision in his/her life, to go against the tide, to speak out at the risk of being shunned by society. It’s not easy being an atheist if you care about getting ahead in a Christian(ish) nation.
On the otherhand, I find most Christians (I am talking about the non-right wingers) who merely believe in God because this is what their mom told them to do (You do agree that MOST Christians are like that right?), have not taken a hard look at their faith. They don’t know how to answer the question “Where did God come from”, which to me is the simpliest reason not to be a religious person. Most Christians don’t REALLY understand why they are Christians or why they beleive what they beleive, which is part of the reason why I like to read up here on World Mag.
In regard to #20, part 2, do you teach your children “differently”? Do you teach your children about Muhammad and let them make a choice. Really think about that one before you answer it because it’s a little tricky.
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Before I met my wife, I had several long-term girlfriends who wanted to get married. My lack of religion was not an obstacle. I went to Mass with my wife’s family once at Christmas. It was a lot of work with all the ups and owns, and the incense gave me a sinus infection. No thanks!
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Before I met my wife I had several religious girlfriends who wanted to get married. My wife was Catholic when we were married. She now self-describes as an agnostic. I’m proud of her for having the strength to admit that she doesn’t know.
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We send our kids to one of the top secular private schools on the west coast. We don’t take them to church, although they sometimes get to go recreationally with their grandparents or with a friend. We talk about it afterwards. A broad experience base is essential to raising a well rounded person.
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I’d write more, but the blog is to annoying to continue.
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I would like to take a shot at answering how I teach my child. I am raising her to believe in God. I firmly believe the only reason she is hear is because of all the people who prayed for me to have her. (I travelled quite a bit for work when I was going through infertility, so everytime I flew into a city I called the local prayer hotline and requested prayer. There truly is no telling how many people prayed for me to have her). I am raising her to be Episcopalian because I am. She is baking bread this afternoon for communion as part of her first communion class. I am raising her to be straight because I am. I am raising her to be kind and gracious because I TRY to be. I want her to be what I want her to be BUT I realize she is going to be who she is going to be. If she turns out to be atheist I am going to love her more and pray even harder for her. I am not going to lock her out of my life. If you turns out to be gay I am going to love her more and pray harder for her because I know she will have chosen a difficult way of life. All parents have a vision of what they want their children to be when they grow up and we all try to raise them that way. If she can justify her beliefs to me when she is an adult I will respect them. I will not believe them also, but I will respect them. Now if she brings some loser home whether male or female I will put my foot down. I only say this because I have a friend who has a family she is quite close to and the daughter wants to marry her girlfriend and the girlfriend is the most childish loser anyone one of us has ever been around. Talk about a “marriage” that is doomed from the beginning. Her mother said at least they won’t have to go through a legal divorce.
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scott and hamachi – Some might beleive “because they want to” but that was not the case with me. I was raised in a household with RC parents who didn’t do much pushing of faith (they were fairly good examples in their lives though). When I stop attending church (not having developed any faith while going), I would have preferred to gothe “enlightened” route of my peer network and not believe. Over time, with examination ofvarious positions, I came to believe more against my wishes that in line with them.
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I kind of resent Lynn lumping atheists and agnostics in the same basket. I think it’s an unfair characterization. Not that I consider atheists to be bad or anything – I just think we’re two distinct groups.
As a questioning agnostic, I consider both atheists and religious believers to be the two extreme poles. Both groups claim their particular beliefs to be absolute.
Then there is those of us who just don’t know. I think there are more of us than the polls indicate. I suspect their are Christians who have their doubts and their are atheists who have their doubts.
As for what people want to call themselves, I have no problem with whatever they chose. It’s no skin off my back.
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Ok, my spelling and grammar are off today…must be the drugs
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I’m on drugs too, Anlir. The Vicodin is great stuff, but makes me itchy
If I counter that with Benadryl, it’s lights out! I think the antibiotics are working, thank Doc.
How are we defining the term atheist here.
a) someone who believes there are NO Gods.
b) someone who lacks belief in Gods.
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Atheists do need a more positive spin. Of all the silly things, why do they pick on God? They could do worse than call themselves by the name that William James gave such a good reputation to: pragmatist.
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whoah…vicodin and benadryl should put a horse out of commission
Glad it’s working for you.
I know very few atheists, but they seem just as dogmatic to me about their lack of belief in God as the Christians do about their belief in God. I’m very comfortable being in the middle.
I try not to be prejudiced toward either group. I have sympathy for atheists though, just because they are a minority and the way they’re treated by other people.
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Scroop, I love your avatar! The elephant seems to have a pretty wide stance
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KRM, did your parents push you to question god (especailly not RC’s who don’t read the Bible)? Did you do the typical RC thing, like go to church, fill the basket with cash, get baptised, receive commuion and get confirmed? If so, it’d be pretty hard to say that your parents didn’t push it. How is that not pushing? krm, also, can you show me an atheist or a christian who will say that they beleive what they beleive because it fulfills some type of predisposed desire to be one or the other? I doubt it, but if you find one, let me know.
#36. I doubt that many atheists pick on god. That’s like picking on the boogie man or the tooth fairy. The more apt description is that they pick on your faith, which is particularily troublesome to most religious people becuase it’s so scary to them. That’s why we temper the “love” of the bible with the scariness of hell and gods fury and killing the children of bethel and on and on and on.
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A couple of remarks about atheists being lonely, made me think of the following
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
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A couple of comments about atheists and marriage and loneliness made me think about think of this recent article.
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
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TRS #20: Most atheists I know: 3) are mad at God for some reason
A person who is mad at God is NOT an atheist. That person is an idiot. No person can be mad at something he doesn’t believe exists.
Atheism is simple. It means not theism. Atheists have figured out all gods are inventions, invented by primitive science-ignorant people who were looking for an easy explanation of things they did not understand. Instead of saying “I don’t know” or “who cares?” these ancient know-nothing people invented magic and they called their magic “God”. Atheists have figured out magic is nonsense. It’s interesting the percentage of atheists in the scientific community is much higher than for non-scientists. There’s a good reason for that. The more a person understands science, the less likely he is to believe in a god, which is just another word for magic.
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A whole whack of assumptions, guesses and even a few Freudain like analysis of atheists childhoods. Infact a whole load of needless speculation permeates this thread.
Since our brain structure determines our response to the socio-environmental stimuli, the nature of our personal beliefs is in all liklihood predetermined. All Calvinists can now jump in and claim their faith was always based on science. The strength or lack of beliefs is based on the hardwiring of our brains.
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A whole whack of assumptions, guesses and even a few Freudain like analysis of atheists childhoods. Infact a whole load of needless speculation permeates this thread.
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God does not believe in atheists!
The word agnostic, means ‘without knowledge’. So how can they be called ‘bright’? Atheists aren’t ambivalent about God, they are specifically against him. This means they are against something they say doesn’t exist. Not very bright!
The word Lucifer means ‘bright one’. Can we call these bright ones the lucid ones?
Romans 1:18-22 states that there is no such thing as agnostics, i.e. people who don’t know about God. God has presented himself to everyone. You can test this theory by asking anyone on the planet what they think of God. Everyone will immediately have an opinion, meaning they have thought about him. Atheists simply deny it. Not very bright.
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Sure are a lot of posts by atheist agnostics, or is that agnostic atheists?
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Mr. Buckles, An agnostic is a wishy-washy person who is unable to make decisions. An agnostic claims he doesn’t know whether or not there is a magic man. An atheist has made a decision. He or she has completely ruled out the possibility gods are anything more than inventions of people who are too lazy to try to understand the natural world.
Mr. Xion, atheists are no more against God, than they are against the tooth fairy. Both creatures are imaginary and it would be pointless to be against something that doesn’t exist.
I know of at least one atheist who is against something (me). I’m against the idea of teaching children about the invented magic man before they are old enough to think for themselves. It’s just not fair to a child to drill nonsense into him when he is young and gullible and likely to believe any insanity.
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A couple of comments about atheists and marriage and loneliness made me think about think of this recent article.
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
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#20: Actually, TRS, I recently heard of a study being done at an Ivy League school (Princeton maybe?) which seeks to see if there is a correlation between atheism and a poor family life/upbringing (in particular, a poor relationship with one’s father). Of course, there are some well-known precedents for such a hypothesis (e.g., Freud, Marx), although one would not want to be guilty of making a sweeping generalization on the matter.
At any rate, this is pretty much old news. I heard of the so-called “brights” several months ago, and it amounted to a PR move to lend palatability to a few acid-tongued/penned militant atheists (Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc.). They are preaching to the choir and getting cheers from their own ranks, but one wonders why they think that poor research coupled with mockery and ridicule will win them any allies.
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Hmmm. Someone spends their every waking hour attacking Christians for their beliefs and says it is pointless to be against something that doesn’t exist. Very bright indeed! This deep routed rage against the things of God is founded on vanity. I feel sorry for these people so full of unfounded hatred.
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Anlir –
Is #38 a tap? Watch my left foot!
Xion –
Where in the world did you get #41 for a definition of agnostic?Personally, I think the distinction between “atheist” and “agnostic” is academic, so you might as well call yourself “agnostic” in order to receive better treatment. Atheism requires almost as much energy as theism and for what?
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Xion, Your sky daddy only lives in your imagination, but christians exist, muslims exist, and jews exist, and these 3 religions are costing me, an American taxpayer, plenty of money to support their religious wars. That’s what I’m against, religious violence, and religious stupidity that makes people lie to children about science.
I agree it’s probably a waste of time to talk about it, but do you really think rational people should ignore muslims flying airplanes into buildings, and Christians lying to children, and Christians yelling at science teachers?
Isn’t it interesting that Christians are constantly attacking science and scientists? Christians, including you Xion, know the biggest threat to religious insanity is science. That’s why Christians are constantly spreading lies about science, especially science that conflicts with the stupidity of Genesis.
So you see, Mr. Xion, it’s not your man-made magician I have a problem with. The problem is the huge mass of strange people who are letting their strange god beliefs cause much harm to human progress, with their violence and their anti-science lies.
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“Where did God come from”
******Why in the world would that be an important question?
If it is, then please tell me: where did matter come from? Where did the tiny dot of infinitely compressed matter come from that started the Big Bang? What was there before the Big Bang? What is our Universe stretching into beyond its borders?
If you can’t answer those things, then I guess you can’t be a scientist either.
See how silly that is?
We can ask the questions, but there are many things we simply can’t yet answer. Where God came from is one of them.
There are FAR more important questions, such as what do you now do with your life if you discover He is actually there?
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Scott,
Of course I teach my children the Christian world view. That is what parents do…teach their children what they have discovered to be true.
So, of course atheists do the same thing thinking they are teaching “truth.” I was simply answering the question where do atheists come from?
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Qwerty,
Sometimes, you need to read more carefully.
As I said in #20, third part: Some people are so mad at God for some reason that they PRETEND to be atheists, even to themselves, when all they’re really doing is running away from Him in anger. There’s a fair number of those people.
Just listen to the first question that comes out of their mouths when religion comes up…”how can a good God allow ______________?”
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Anlir writes: I kind of resent Lynn lumping atheists and agnostics in the same basket. I think it’s an unfair characterization. Not that I consider atheists to be bad or anything – I just think we’re two distinct groups.
I didn’t do the lumping, Anlir…just quoting Ed’s op-ed
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TRS #49, ok, I stand corrected.
TJ, in #44 you were talking about Dawkins’ idea to call atheists “brights”. Back in #11 I pointed out nobody uses that word. It was a dumb idea and everyone ignored it.
Xion, I replied to your comments in #45 but they disappeared. They may appear again, this blog is unpredictable. The point I was trying to make before my comments vanished, is I’m not against imaginary magicians (because they don’t exist), I’m not necessarily against the strange people who believe in the magic man, but I am against religions when they affect me, either directly or indirectly. For example, even you might not have liked the result of the heaven belief on 9/11/2001. I also don’t much care for Christian attacks on science and scientists. Christians spread lies to children about science. That does not affect me directly, but it does affect the future progress of the human race, and I’m against that. Perhaps you think I should ignore religious violence and religious stupidity that harms our country. You might be right. By myself I can’t change anything, but it’s difficult for me to be quiet about what looks to me like intentional lying about science, all because of ancient myths, like the stupidity of Genesis.
Especially annoying is the big business lying about science has become. There are people who make a living doing nothing but spreading lies about science. I am talking about the Discovery Institute which exists only to disguise God Did It to look like science, and they do nothing but lie, lie, and lie. All this just to make money from gullible people. They don’t care what harm they cause to science education and human progress, they only want to make easy money. This immoral behavior, constant lying, makes religions difficult to ignore.
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A whole lot of nonsense being spouted here including some Freudian analysis. An agnostic is indeed without knowledge however this does not imply a lack of intellect rather an admission of humility. Agnostics did not arrive at this conclusion because of some silly Freudain-style father complex nor any other psycho babble. Our brain structure combined with socio-enviro determines our level of scepticism, gullibility, and desire for certainity etc — all character traits which determine our life choices.
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wow it worked this time
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“an admission of humility”
And if somebody said he could not be sure whether or not there is a tooth fairy, would that be an admission of humility?
I just don’t think agnostics have any value. Just because a large number of people believe there’s an invisible man in the sky, that does not mean it’s a virtue to pretend that’s possible.
There is actually more evidence for tooth fairies than there is for any god that was ever invented.
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Querty
Your answer which makes no sense “There is actually more evidence for tooth fairies than there is for any god that was ever invented.”
The problem with you is, YOU don’t want God to be real, and that includes His Son Jesus Christ –
You are afraid that if you really looked at who God is, who is Son is, and studied Prophecy you wouldn’t be able to stand on that ‘cardboard box’ of yours anymore -
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#47, TRS. I don’t know. See how simple now? Now, explain your answer to me. If you can’t answer the question as truth then the basis for everything else is suspect. Remember, this is what you base your life on, you should at least have it right. Don’t you agree? If you don’t think it’s an important question then IMHO, you have not examined your faith. Also, where did the “Dust” that made Adam came from? Was dust here BEFORE man? Can I teach your children about Islam and how M rode up to heaven on a horse? You are NOT letting your children decide, let’s get that straight, you are indoctrinating them into Christianity. Nothing wrong with that, but lets call a spade a spade. I am sure you have lovely children, keep up the good work.
I am an atheist. I don’t believe in God or Allah or blah blah. I don’t, for one, call myself a bright nor have I heard ANYONE I associate with call themselves a bright. Some Christians are bright, some atheists are not so bright. I call myself an atheist because that’s the word that best represents what I am.
If it comforts anyone here, I don’t believe in Allah either! He/She is another sky pixie.
And as for “being mad at god”, sorry you just don’t have it right. I can’t dislike Santa for leaving me coal as a child… he’s not real. I can’t be made a Allah for being so cruel he’s not real.
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#51: Actually, qwerty/ed, you are misinformed (once again). The “Brights” were actually founded three years ago by Mynga Futrell and Paul Geisert (not by Richard Dawkins), they are an actual organization (as the article the thread referenced pointed out), they have a website/group, and even the editor of Skeptics magazine considers himself to be a “Bright.” Of course, that all could have changed in the last few months (perhaps other atheists have realized that a constant barrage of arrogant, hateful, mocking, insulting, factless, fallacy-riddled speech is not the best rhetorical tool for getting one’s point across, but your mileage may vary), so it is entirely possible, I suppose, that many have subsequently discovered that it really was a bad idea all along.
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oh boy.. qwerty, you’ve asked for it now, let the insanity begin! Heathen
The wrath of Jesus Christ and God and Ra and Allah and the holy ghost are upon you!
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#47, TRS. I don’t know. See how simple now? Now, explain your answer to me. If you can’t answer the question as truth then the basis for everything else is suspect. Remember, this is what you base your life on, you should at least have it right. Don’t you agree? If you don’t think it’s an important question then IMHO, you have not examined your faith. Also, where did the “Dust” that made Adam came from? Was dust here BEFORE man? Can I teach your children about Islam and how M rode up to heaven on a horse? You are NOT letting your children decide, let’s get that straight, you are indoctrinating them into Christianity. Nothing wrong with that, but lets call a spade a spade. I am sure you have lovely children, keep up the good work.
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I am an atheist. I don’t believe in God or Allah or blah blah. I don’t, for one, call myself a bright nor have I heard ANYONE I associate with call themselves a bright. Some Christians are bright, some atheists are not so bright. I call myself an atheist because that’s the word that best represents what I am.
If it comforts anyone here, I don’t believe in Allah either! He/She is another sky pixie.
And as for “being mad at god”, sorry you just don’t have it right. I can’t dislike Santa for leaving me coal as a child… he’s not real. I can’t be made a Allah for being so cruel he’s not real.
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So far I’ve been unable to post today. (Shrug)
A couple of comments about atheists and marriage and loneliness made me think about think of this recent article.
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
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Re: #50 (Lynn),
I happily stand corrected – it is indeed Ed Veith, and not Lynn who lumps agnostics in with atheists.
I need to learn to read more carefully. I hate it when I do that.
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“YOU don’t want God to be real”
When I saw the characters in bold in #55 I knew it was my friend Victoria.
I have to agree the world is a better place without some invisible bloodthirsty man in the sky who likes to murder babies like your man-made Bible God. However, it’s not a question of me not wanting this make-believe creature to be real. I just don’t believe in ancient myths.
Let’s compare the evidence for tooth fairies to the evidence for gods, for example, the Bible God.
Many children have noticed cash or coins under their pillow after leaving their baby tooth there. How else could that be explained unless there was a tooth fairy visiting during the night?
OK, that was not very strong evidence. The money could have been left by mom or dad. Still, it’s at least some evidence.
Now let’s look at all the evidence for the Bible God. Oh, right, there isn’t any evidence, is there? Not one shred of evidence.
Another little problem with this invisible man in the sky you call God, is this whole concept is nuts. There’s too many questions that can’t be answered, like what makes it invisible, what made it, what’s it for, and why would a sane person believe in this nonsense?
Childhood brainwashing and/or extreme gullibility would explain why people believe in it.
Perhaps the most important question is what is it for? Why should there be a god that isn’t needed for anything? This is why there’s a very high percentage of scientists who could never believe in the invisible man. The more knowledge a person has about science, the more likely he will understand magic is not necessary for anything. That’s all God is, just another word for magic.
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TJ #56, ok, there’s an “actual organization”, they have a website, and they call each other “Brights”. Thanks for the information.
When I first heard of this Brights nonsense, I thought it was nuts. Apparently almost everyone else thought it was nuts, because I frequently visit atheist blogs and not once have I heard the word “Brights” being used. Never. Not ever once.
The word atheist works for me. In a perfect world the word atheist would not be necessary, because in a perfect world there would be no theists.
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In #47 TRS asks the question that may never be answered, how did the universe begin.
TRS and other theists love this question because this is still a safe place to hide their magic man of the gaps.
The theists are saying “I don’t know the answer, therefore the answer is magic.”
The correct answers are “We don’t know yet, but let’s work on it” or “Who cares?”.
It’s pointless to answer questions with God Did It. There is no evidence for God Did It, and God Did It does not solve any problem. It’s just a lazy excuse to give up finding the real answer.
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Actually, qwerty/ed, what I’ve found, in reading various atheists (notably, Harris) and seeing what the various atheists on blogs (who, in most cases, are simply repeating what the “Bright Bunch” says), is that evolution functions more like a “god of the gaps.” That is, when something cannot be explained according to naturalistic presuppositions, then the “evolution did it” mantra is carted out. Such a “lazy excuse” used to avoid “finding the real answer”, mixed in with a few statements of ridicule (the ol’ ad hominem approach) does wonders if one does not actually wish to engage in honest, critical thought. Such has been noted by atheistic colleagues of Dawkins: he does not actually wish to honestly engage the Christian religion, so he resorts to ad hominems, straw men, etc. to “boost” his argument (sound familiar). As I stated previously, it might sound good to the masses who eschew critical thought, but it lacks any real intellectual firepower.
Take your “magic man” and “tooth fairy” comments. They are nothing new (just warmed over examples of Russell’s “celestial teapot” and Dawkins’ “flying spaghetti monster”), and they are bad analogies and straw men to boot. Simply stated, being in these fictitious things does not provide the epistemological, metaphysical, and ethical presuppositions for making sense of the world. To make a comparison with God is, once again, not only fallacious but also intellectually lazy.
Finally, before casting stones at theists, you might want to take into account that the atheistic viewpoint (even adding in the agnostics) is a decidedly minority viewpoint. In other words, taken from a strictly statistical perspective (if we want to be “scientfic”), yours is the anomaly in terms of world views. Now, if some such as Dawkins wished to be consistent, it might be hypothesized that atheism is some sort of mental disorder that needed to be researched in order to find a cure (at least the possibility would need to be considered). What happens instead? More insults. What do I expect from you in response? The same.
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I am still a Christian in spite of all the supposed logic against it because you can’t argue with personal experience. When you convince me that 40 years of seeing answered prayer, changed lives and healed bodies, receiving comfort in my lowest moment and pulling off feats that required talents and character that I don’t have, didn’t happen, then I might start to listen to your “logic”.
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sounds like I believe in kBellis more than kBellis does. I am going to pray to god that I have the ability to finish up this post and show the world with the strongest proof ever that god answers prayers. Now, I just hope this blog supports it.
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See, she does exist. Proof positive! Stupid Atheists.
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Kbells, please notice that unlike Scott, I spelled your name correctly.
You are giving credit to the wrong place for “healed bodies”. It’s not magic that makes people healthy again. This a major problem god-believers have. They are way too quick to claim a miracle happened. They would be better off if they understood there have never been any miracles and there never will be any miracles. There’s a reason for everything and magic is not one of those reasons.
Another problem god-believers have, which Scott was talking about, is this prayer nonsense. It’s just talking to yourself. It’s usually just a waste of time, but sometimes it can be harmful, because people should be looking for real solutions to problems, instead of hoping for a magical solution.
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kBells, please forgive me, you name is like an optical illusion to me for some reason. I look at it and see an “i” there, like an oasis in the desert!
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So far not letting me post.
A couple of comments about atheists and marriage and loneliness made me think about think of this recent article.
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
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You are NOT letting your children decide, let’s get that straight, you are indoctrinating them into Christianity. Nothing wrong with that, but lets call a spade a spade. I am sure you have lovely children, keep up the good work.
******WHY oh WHY can’t you READ???? I have never said that I am NOT teaching my children Christianity. In fact, I explicitly said I was.
BUT WHAT HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH THE TOPIC WE WERE DISCUSSING? Nothing, of course. Talk about a “red herring.”
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qwerty
there is a virtue in realizing the limits of your knowledge, intellect and ability. Agnosticism does not necessarily mean admitting the possibity of god rather its the admission that atheism can be be like talking to yourself or arguing against the existence of the tooth fairy quite clearly what’s the point.
Most agnostics refuse to enage in the debate since it has limited value others enjoy it as a logical exercise. Some of the best treatises in philosophy have to do with logical arguments for or against god’s existence.
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TRS. I don’t know. See how simple now? Now, explain your answer to me.
*****My answer about where God came from is EXACTLY THE SAME AS YOURS. I don’t know. It is not an important question to me, and nothing I believe hinges on it.
I can NOT know, and it doesn’t affect belief in God at all, just like not knowing how the Universe actually began does not preclude you believing in science.
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OK TRS, if you don’t want to discuss we don’t have to discuss. However, when the basis for your agruement and your “moral compass” is the bible and you can substantiate the authors authenticity then it’s difficult to pass that off as “truth” (as what you teach to your children in an earlier post). Also, there is something space between god and science. I have to admit, the scales of evidence do clearly point to science and not god. Even in a court, the standard of conviction is never “without a doubt”. But, god doesn’t even get “more likely than not”. Also, I don’t use a science book to direct my morals or my life.
Red Herring? No. Maybe off topic. Withdrawn. Sorry.
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“what’s the point”
I choose to not ignore the god-belief because we are in 2 wars right now because of it. As an American taxpayer, I am helping pay for 2 religious wars. Also, it’s obvious the god-belief slows down human progress when millions of children are lied to about science.
“logical arguments for or against god’s existence.”
There is a “logical” argument for an invisible man in the sky?
Let’s call god what it really is. This is a belief in magic. It’s insane, lazy, and has proven to be extremely harmful. It should be obvious to any sane person this invisible man doesn’t exist for the simple reason it’s impossible. Considering all the religious violence in the world, and all the religious attacks on science, it would be immoral to ignore it.
“realizing the limits of your knowledge”
How much knowledge is required to figure out there is no such thing as magic? That’s what every man-made god is, a magician.
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In America we have monuments to stupidity (churches) everywhere. There are millions of people who believe some long ago decomposed man-god is going to come here and end the world. There are millions more who lie to their children about science and scientists. From other countries we have people flying airplanes into our buildings because they want to go to heaven.
The agnostic sees all this, and he says “I realize the limits of my knowledge, so I’m not going to tell anyone there couldn’t possibly be an invisible magician in the sky. I will just ignore the violence, stupidity, and dishonesty I see everywhere.”
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The agnostic sees all this, and he says “I realize the limits of my knowledge, so I’m not going to tell anyone there couldn’t possibly be an invisible magician in the sky. I will just ignore the violence, stupidity, and dishonesty I see everywhere.”
It’s too true, Qwerty. You certainly have too many friends and allies at wmb; you should strive as mightily as you can to jettison the ones you have.
I do have to say that a person who goes on about “people following him around,” on a bulletin board (apparently still stuck in unpleasant childhood playground experiences) does provoke some mirthful regarding as he chastises agnostics for their lack of courage and unwillingness to take a stand against “violence…” etc.
Posting indignant BB messages is indeed taking a stand. You should be walking into high school biology classes and standing should-to-shoulder with the benighted biology teachers as they confront the creationist mobs brandishing flaming faggots. (Testing current filtering.)
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Not only that, I am unable to post to this topic. Must be a message from “Not God.”
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qwerty
given the scientific method you seem to love, the existence of god cannot be proven or disproven both are a matter of faith. The lack of complete information allows individuals to doubt the athiests conclusions as well as the theist convictions.
Read Anselm, Hume, Kant and Aquinas. The arguments pro and con in this debate is fascinating and demonstrates both the stregth and limits of human intellect.
Violence has less to do with religious beliefs than the desire for power which seems to afflict the athiest and theist alike.
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The agnostic does not ignore the stupidity of the world rather he works with what is pragmatically possible to limit the idiocy of man
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Can’t disprove gods? So what? I can’t disprove the tooth fairy either.
Matter of faith?
Let’s remember we are talking about a magical being that is a man-made invention. Is it really a matter a faith to not believe in nonsense?
Let’s say I claim I am a god. If you disagee is it a matter of faith? It’s just crazy to say it’s matter of faith to not believe somebody else’s delusions.
“Anselm, Hume, Kant and Aquinas.” Well, thanks for the suggestion, but what might be fascinating to you would bore me to death.
I’m not suggesting getting rid of religions will eliminate violence, but it’s likely in a world without god nuts who wish to go to heaven (whatever that is), the World Trade Center would still be standing. The heaven belief is the most powerful weapon ever invented. Religion makes normal people violent and it makes people of average intelligence stupid. The god invention was the biggest mistake the human race ever made.
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Qwerty’s obsessive infatuation with “science” is akin to Hinckley’s infatuation with Jody Foster,both delusional and unrequited.
There is no flexibility for intuiting hypotheses and no rigorous and methodical thinking to apply in testing those hypotheses evident in any of his posts. There is simply a tiresome argument by definition. Emotionalism triumphs over rationality and a vicious animus toward historical evidence and epistimological reflection that subverts his logical positivism (or more accurately negativism?)is offered as incontrovertible proof.
I don’t believe in a magic man in the sky. I believe that historical documentation and personal experience remain important foundations from which conclusions can be logically inferred.
Not all true things that we know can be tested by repeatable experiments. But we can be confident enough in historical evidence that we willingly test those truths with our very lives. And there is nothing in any of this that is in opposition to the scientific method.
There is probably nothing more hostile to scientific thought than a philosophy that distorts its purposes and ignores its limitations in a clumsy personal vendetta against a religious caricature.
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Theism does not necessitate the existence of heaven nor does it motivate its beleivers to be stupid. Humans create all sorts of reasons and motivations to be idiots, not all involve heaven some just involve alcohol. Blaming beliefs that you yourself do not share distracts you from the responsibililties all humans have. On a pure rational basis any proposition needs faith as factual systems are inherently contraidictory. Beyond that any type of post modernist discussion of narrative and power can disqualify any “fact” from certainity.
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“Not only that, I am unable to post to this topic. Must be a message from “Not God.””
Random, I am going to do a test. I think I know what’s happening. We may need to close all comments with a special phrase. A secret handshake, if you will. If it works, try adding it to you posts.
Praise the Lord!!
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There you have it. I’m a believer.
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Hallelujah!
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I wasn’t trying to convert you. I was just trying to explain why you are not likely to convert me. I guess you have experienced it to understand. Other than your wife have you ever “converted” anyone?
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Kbells, you were talking to somebody else, I don’t know who, but I would like to jump in.
I write comments here explaining why theists are wrong about everything, but not once have I ever expected anyone here to agree with me. If a theist ever did say “you’re right, God is a nutty idea, creationism is worse, science is the only thing that makes sense” I might have a heart attack from the shock. I would not consider the now ex-theist to be “converted”. I would call him or her “cured” of a serious and very harmful disease called theism. However, it will never happen because theism can’t be cured. It’s a permanent disease. There is some hope for the person if he is young enough, and if he has what it takes to recover from intense brainwashing, but once a person becomes an adult and still believes the weirdness that was shoved into his brain, then nothing can be done for that person. His life is totally wasted, and he has no hope of ever being normal.
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See?
PTL!
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Querty – 76
It’s not a matter of whether you can prove the ‘tooth fairy’ or any other fairy, what it amounts to is your time spent in trying to disprove God Almighty, which you do every day -
Querty, I read some of your posts, not all, I just don’t have the time with all my other research, but it does seem rather silly that you spend so much time on something you don’t believe in –
If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ
If you don’t believe in Hell or Heaven
If you don’t believe in the Saving grace of Jesus Christ
Why Querty do you spend the time here on this blog? Who are you trying to convince? If I were to guess, which is exactly what I am doing it is yourself –
Querty, you aren’t sure what you believe, if you were, this blog wouldn’t interest you, since you don’t believe in the statement which World Magazine prints regarding their stance – Given this piece of information, you being here, day after day after day trying to get a ‘rise’ out of just about any Bible Believing Christian is proof of your sitting on the fence -
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kBells (got it right this time) i have not yet converted, personally, a right wing christian. I am still working towards that. I have, however, swayed many people from a beleive in god. Just today, in fact, i had a “staunch beleiver” questioning beleif in god. It’s natural and frankly, should be required. The basic question from my perspective is ALWAYS the same, where did god come from. You see, my dear, it’s a trick question because I KNOW, you do not know. But, since it the basis of your faith (god’s word is the bible) it leaves no other choice by to deny beleif. I understand that people will not likely abdicate their belief in god overnight, but if my probe is the wedge, then so be it.
God is just a figment of your imagination and has no basis in reality. I don’t call myself a bright nor do I think I am more intelligent that anyone else, necessarily becuase they believe in god, but heck yeah it gives me a great leg up.
Peace and love, even with the grace of the sky pixie. Hopefully she lets me live another day… wanna bet on it? I will.
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Scott
God doesn’t need to tell you nor I where He came from, it is ‘little man’ who needs these answers because he can’t cope with God -
God in His power has given us many Prophecies, which to date, more than 360 have come to pass, from Scripture in the Old and New Testament – yet man still bangs his fist on the floor of dirt demanding more, more, more, where is the proof? And God in all His glory watches as ‘little man’ continues his child like ‘tantrum’-
Scott, your question has no answer because God is Eternal, from Everlasting, even if YOU cannot understand this –
I would, in all meekness ask you to call upon ALMIGHTY God, ask Him to show you the way, and then follow Him -
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85 – Scott
God doesn’t need to tell you nor I where He came from, it is ‘little man’ who needs these answers because he can’t cope with God -
God in His power has given us many Prophecies, which to date, more than 360 have come to pass, from Scripture in the Old and New Testament – yet man still bangs his fist on the floor of dirt demanding more, more, more, where is the proof? And God in all His glory watches as ‘little man’ continues his child like ‘tantrum’-
Scott, your question has no answer because God is Eternal, from Everlasting, even if YOU cannot understand this –
I would, in all meekness ask you to call upon ALMIGHTY God, ask Him to show you the way, and then follow Him -
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Is it imagination or reality Scott?
God doesn’t need to tell you nor I where He came from, it is ‘little man’ who needs these answers because he can’t cope with God -
God in His power has given us many Prophecies, which to date, more than 360 have come to pass, from Scripture in the Old and New Testament – yet man still bangs his fist on the floor of dirt demanding more, more, more, where is the proof? And God in all His glory watches as ‘little man’ continues his child like ‘tantrum’-
Scott, your question has no answer because God is Eternal, from Everlasting, even if YOU cannot understand this –
I would, in all meekness ask you to call upon ALMIGHTY God, ask Him to show you the way, and then follow Him -
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Atheists
Scott
God doesn’t need to tell you nor I where He came from, it is ‘little man’ who needs these answers because he can’t cope with God -
God in His power has given us many Prophecies, which to date, more than 360 have come to pass, from Scripture in the Old and New Testament – yet man still bangs his fist on the floor of dirt demanding more, more, more, where is the proof? And God in all His glory watches as ‘little man’ continues his child like ‘tantrum’-
Scott, your question has no answer because God is Eternal, from Everlasting, even if YOU cannot understand this –
I would, in all meekness ask you to call upon ALMIGHTY God, ask Him to show you the way, and then follow Him -
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Scott if you don’t believe in God, why do you spend so much playing on a Blog where so many to do believe in Christ?
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Bravo HRW! I hope I don’t tarnish your reputation by agreeing with some of your posts!
An agnostic is someone who pretends they ‘don’t know’ (look up the Greek) and an atheist is someone who pretends that they do.
For all an atheist’s bluster, he cannot disprove the existence of God. All he’s got is a hatred of the idea of God. Like Jean Paul Sartre he cannot bear the thought of an all-seeing one to whom he is accountable. However, the cost of not being accountable is that his life does not count. In the end it will all have been for naught, a meaningless blip in a cavern of emptiness.
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So Scott, are you waiting for an explanation from God?
God doesn’t need to tell you nor I where He came from, it is ‘little man’ who needs these answers because he can’t cope with God -
God in His power has given us many Prophecies, which to date, more than 360 have come to pass, from Scripture in the Old and New Testament – yet man still bangs his fist on the floor of dirt demanding more, more, more, where is the proof? And God in all His glory watches as ‘little man’ continues his child like ‘tantrum’-
Scott, your question has no answer because God is Eternal, from Everlasting, even if YOU cannot understand this –
I would, in all meekness ask you to call upon ALMIGHTY God, ask Him to show you the way, and then follow Him -
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Scott, “converted” is the wrong word to use. That’s like saying somebody could be converted from having cancer. The correct word is “cured”. Theism is a disease that wastes away a person’s brain.
We are talking about a belief in an invisible man in the sky. This is a mental illness. Unfortunately for the victim, there is no cure.
Xion: “he cannot disprove the existence of God.”
Translation: “he cannot disprove the existence of an invisible man in the sky”.
It’s not necessary to disprove stupidity.
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“an all-seeing one to whom he is accountable.”
Like I said before, theism is a disease the rots the brain. This “all-seeing one” garbage is just pure insanity.
Xion, if you really think something is watching you, you should get some help from a professional mental health expert. That’s a very serious disease you (and most others here) have, and even though it probably can’t be cured, you should at least try to do something about it, because it’s a horrible way to waste a life, believing you’re being watched by an invisible man.
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#85 “Just today, in fact, i had a “staunch beleiver” questioning beleif in god. It’s natural and frankly, should be required.”
I will admit that I have questioned God, which has caused me to looked at Him more deeply and from different perspectives. And I still come up with the same answer. There is a God and He cares about me.
Also I was not brain washed as a kid. My parents didn’t start taking me to church until my late childhood and had stopped by my mid teens. After that my father became very bitter towards God for some silly reason and did his best to push us away from the church.
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Does wmb feel like working today? Will prayer help? Does the Pope you know what?
A couple of comments about atheists and marriage and loneliness made me think about think of this recent article.
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
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Long posts still don’t work. Here’s a truncated one.
A couple of comments about atheists and marriage and loneliness made me think about think of this recent article.
From The Wall Street Journal, 9/14/2007, page W11, “Elaine and Puddy: A Match Made on Earth”
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Just like old days. Break it into pieces.
In an episode of “Seinfeld” that lays bare the characters’ secular sensibilities, Elaine is shocked to learn that her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Puddy, is a believing Christian. “So is it a problem that I’m not really religious?” she asks him upon realizing their differing worldviews. “Not for me,” he answers. “I’m not the one going to hell.” Though Elaine herself acknowledges that she doesn’t believe in an afterlife, she becomes increasingly angry with Puddy for not caring more about her eternal damnation. Finally, she explodes: “You should be trying to save me!”
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However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
Remainder at
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB118972337437226915.html
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However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
Christians generally trace the prohibition against dating nonbelievers to this passage from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?” But many young evangelicals wonder whether there might be exceptions. An advice column in Today’s Christian Woman tackles the question, “Is it a sin to marry a non-Christian?” And a Christian teen magazine called Brio advises girls on “what to do if someone you know is missionary dating.”
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However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.” Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
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However unlikely, the “Seinfeld” writers seem to have nailed one of the essential problems of evangelical Christians dating outside their faith community — what some jokingly refer to as “missionary dating.”
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Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
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Hell is trying to post on the new wmb.
Lisa Ann Cockrel, the managing editor of Brazos Press, a Christian publisher, writes in an email that “hell is a good barometer for what a Christian will think about missionary dating.” In other words, if Puddy really thought Elaine was going to experience such a fate, could he really date her, let alone marry her, without trying to save her?
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#93 I’ve known people who have tried “missionary dating”. It usually involves a Christian looking for an excuse to date the “hot” pagan against his or her better judgment. It almost always ends badly.
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#85, a couple reasons… it’s MY church. IT’s where I learn how Christians operate. Also, the safest place is in the mouth of the wolf. Plus, you’re all such smart people and I love reading all about what you have to say in any given day.
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Huh, Scott, you’re quite flip and all here with all your insults to and about the lack of intelligence among Christian believers but I can’t help but notice all of your spelling errors you continue to make.
You and Qwerty (what a queer name anyway) can run your mouths off all you want, but God, the one you claim you don’t believe in, still says that you are a FOOL. Doesn’t matter if you believe it or not. Truth doesn’t change. It’ll be standing long after you’re dead and gone.
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Proving a negative is impossible. The closest you can arrive at is a near perfect probablity. Saddam Hussian couldn’t prove he didn’t have WMDs, after all he could have been really clever and hid them well and then as a conspriacry bluffs have claimed smuggled them to a friendly third party like Syria. However, the liklihood or probablity this is correct is nearly nil.
Similarly, proving the non-existence of god is impossible. He or she could be good at hide and seek or we humans are just lousy at finding, perceiving or logic. the possibility does exist, however similar to the existence of WMDs the probability is extremely low.
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Did I say Christians lack intelligence? If so, I retract that.
Also, your god has smitted with with very serious eye condition. I don’t see very well and it has greatly hampered my ability to see the small type. I try my best, but sometime I miss things. Did I write something you didn’t understand or did you just want to pick on me? Some Christians are very intelligent, especially those on this blog.
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I just wanted to pick on you a little bit Scott. Forgive me?
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I have to ask (and as a public service announcement, I’m ignoring qwerty from now on). If Christianity is an incurable disease, then why is qwerty trying so hard to convert us? Why bother arguing if we have a disease that rots away our brain? I would tend to think that the opposite is true. “The fool says in his heart that there is no God.”
By the way, Atheism does not mean “not theism.” It means no God. Monotheism is One God, Polytheism is Multiple Gods, Pantheism is Everything is God. So “theism” is a meaningless term. It’s amazing all the mistakes these apparently “enlightened” individuals (”brights” if you will), constantly make, even when talking about their own beliefs.
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No problem VS, no problem at all. If I can deal with what your god dishes out to me, I can certainly deal with what you dish out! (Just kidding!)
Not that I am defending qwerty, who is completely able to defend him/herself, I don’t think he/she said it was an incurable. I think he/she said it was permanent and “probably incurable”. Praise the lord.
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Uncommon, for somebody who is trying to ignore me, you sure talk a lot about me.
“why is qwerty trying so hard to convert us?”
Like I said before, “convert” is the wrong word. The correct word would be “cure”, as in cure an extremely harmful disease that causes the decomposing of the brain while the victim is still alive. I’m not even trying to cure anyone. It’s just a hobby of mine to give deranged people a hard time. Nothing personal, it’s just for fun.
I am sorry I sometimes sound like I’m singling out people. My intention is to speak about all theists as a group, and this very large group, about 4 or 5 billion people and growing, has a very serious problem. This invisible man in the sky stuff is just not normal, even if the majority has the same disease. God garbage is just too goofy to take seriously, especially now in the 21st century when our scientific knowledge is advancing so rapidly. It’s interesting that most god nuts actively deny scientific facts. They know the worst enemy of their god delusion is science.
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Scott wrote:
“If I can deal with what your god dishes out to me…”
My God – Every good and perfect gift is from above, Scott.
He dishes out love, mercy (new every morning) and compassion (it fails not).
In Him, we live and move and have our being. Every breath is a gift from Him.
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134: Atheism does not mean “not theism.” It means no God.
Not theism, no God, what’s the bloody difference? Some people just like to nitpick for no reason.
Another good definition of atheism would be anti-stupidity. I could never imagine any idea more dumb than the invention of an invisible man in the sky. The magic man invention was the worst mistake humans ever made, and today we are still living with the consequences, including the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and millions of people with damaged brains who deny proven scientific facts.
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So is a young lady obtaining an abortion is a gift from God? Or is that mercy? Maybe compassion? Love? Hummm, now I’m more confused. Also, the day AFTER I don’t wake in the AM, did god stop being mericful to me? I simply don’t understand how one can consider the death (what God dishes out) of an “unborn” compassion…not to the mother and not to the “child” not to society, but those are your words/perspective, not mine.
To stay on topic, I will reiterate, I have never heard an Atheist call him/herself a bright. Sounds pretty obnoxious to me.
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I just finished an excellent biography of Mao. It was interesting to me how he did not really care about anything but what served Mao – he was willing for half the population of China to die if it served his interests. He did not accept the idea of self-sacrifice, only self-benefit.
He systematically and deliberately destroyed Chinese culture on a scale that goes beyond anything else ever. This was all linked to his atheism – he just didn’t care, because HE HAD NO REASON TO.
He absolutely had no concern for future generations, including his own children, because he had no reason to.
They will say that Mao was not an atheist, he worshiped himself. But that’s not what Mao claimed, and I fail to see how that is any different from atheist belief. In the end, self is worshipped.
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So is a young lady obtaining an abortion is a gift from God? Or is that mercy? Maybe compassion? Love? Hummm, now I’m more confused. Also, the day AFTER I don’t wake in the AM, did god stop being mericful to me? I simply don’t understand how one can consider the death (what God dishes out) of an “unborn” compassion…not to the mother and not to the “child” not to society, but those are your words/perspective, not mine.
Yes, the young lady is a gift from God, as is her baby. We all are. Just because she is making a mistake does not change that status.
She would find mercy and compassion at any crisis pregnancy center, if no other place.
Mercy is undeserved. However, we all deserve death, for we are all sinners. Each day we live is mercy, our death is what we have earned, apart from Christ.
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Amphipolis, you were talking about Mao in #140. There’s millions of atheists in America, and as far as know, not one of them has murdered millions of people lately.
There are virtually no atheists in our prisons.
Atheist countries like Japan have much less crime than the very religious America.
Mao was a communist. That was his problem. His other problem was he was an (can’t use that word here).
I never met an atheist who didn’t have strong moral values, values they got from their own common sense, not handed down to them by some worthless preacher man or even more worthless holy book. Even if atheists enjoyed eating babies for breakfast, that would be no reason to pretend there’s an invisible man in the sky, which is a nutty idea that has caused a lot of violence that continues today.
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Mao was an atheist. His values came from his common sense. His morals were based on what he perceived was best for him. No other consideration was necessary.
Do you believe Mao was wrong? Why? What universal law did he violate, and where did it come from?
Moral values require sacrifice. Please explain how personal sacrifice is inherent to atheism.
Bad Christian X was a Y. That was his problem. He obviously was not following Jesus when he behaved like that.
There are virtually no atheists in our prisons.
This is good news to me. Jesus came to save sinners.
pretend there’s an invisible man in the sky
Your own existence is as tenative as God’s. The existence of anyone outside you may be your fantasy. You have no way of knowing that there is anyone else. Life, love, justice, and truth are also assumed.
that has caused a lot of violence that continues today
All communists were atheists. Don’t talk to me about violence.
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“Do you believe Mao was wrong? Why?”
Why? Are you trying to waste my time?
Why is genocide wrong? Only a person with ZERO common sense would ask why was Mao a bad person.
“The existence of anyone outside you may be your fantasy.”
That’s bull and you know it.
Atheists don’t fly airplanes into buildings. Atheist don’t deny proven scientific facts because they prefer to pretend everything is magic like the god nuts. Atheists don’t yell at, harass, and threaten science teachers like Christians do.
The god invention is reponsible for 2 wars we are in right now and I have to help pay for them.
The childish insane belief there’s an invisible man in the sky has caused nothing but ignorance, violence, and genocide (including the holocaust thanks to the Christian Hitler and the thousands of Christians who helped murder 6 million Jews).
If you ever tried thinking, and if you were able to think, you could figure out a god magician is just a man-made invention, something dreamed up by ancient know-nothing people. In today’s modern world, with new scientific discoveries being made every day, it just plain stupid to use magic to explain anything. That is all God is, just another word for magic. Magic is for 2 year olds, not sane adults.
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qwerty, every point I made stands in spite of your tirade/tantrum. Your science is not science, it is atheist magic.
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Qwerty/Ed,
Ignoring Amphipolis doesn’t raise your credibility. We’re trying to work your worldview backward to its origin, to no success.
We know what we believe and why we believe it. There are inconsistencies in your worldview that Amphipolis is pointing out that you refuse to address.
What makes something wrong in your worldview and why?
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There are virtually no atheists in our prisons.
Interesting observation, but not so significant. There are virtually no atheists in our country. That the prison population mirrors the society at large should come as no big surprise.
Furthermore, I would surmise that there are a lot of people in prison, who live (or lived) as if there is no God, despite whatever they later profess to believe.
It does remind me of the bumper sticker saying, “As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school.”
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“There are virtually no atheists in our country.”
That’s either a lie or you don’t know what you’re talking about.
10% of Americans don’t believe in your invisible magician, and it could be a lot more because most atheists keep their mouths shut about it, because they don’t want to disappoint their insane relatives. 10% of 300 million is 30 million atheists in America. Please tell me how you figure 30 million = virtually no atheists.
Our prisons are full of god nuts, and almost no atheists, because atheists are, in general, more educated than the “everything is magic” god weirdos. Educated people are less likely to wind up in prison. Also, unlike Christians, atheists have moral values from their common sense, and not from the bloodthirsty bible god who kills babies for the fun of it.
“As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school.”
As long as there are children who were brainwashed by their idiot parents to believe there’s an invisible man in the sky, there will be children as stupid as their parents who talk to that invisible man.
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“Your science is not science, it is atheist magic.”
That says it all. A god-infested mind, who doesn’t even know what science is.
The god weirdos are afraid of science, because they know the worst enemy of the stupidity of Christianity is science.
They know that the proven fact humans are just animals of an ape species, completely blows apart everything stupid thing they believe in, from the Jesus-god-man to humans-go-to-heaven to the-magician-created-people.
All the insanity and stupidity the god believers believe in is threaten by modern science, so the god nuts say science is “atheist magic”. That’s pathetic and disgusting. It’s for a good reason America is the laughing-stock of the world. We got more everything-is-magic creationists than every other advanced country in the world.
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I miss the preview button.
I meant “every stupid thing”, not “everything stupid thing”.
I meant “is threatened by modern science”, not “is threaten by modern science”.
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In #149 I talked about “the proven fact humans are just animals of an ape species”. This is the biggest ever threat to the god belief. It proves the magic man is not even needed to explain something as complicated as the diversity of life. It really proves the god invention was an unnecessary mistake.
Any Christian want to see why it’s a proven fact they are apes? Christians have never shown any evidence they have the ability to understand anything, but here it is anyway, from the recent “Creationism = anti-science” thread. This is a brief explanation of the smoking gun proof all humans, including the worthless preacher man Jesus, are apes.
From the book “The Making of the Fittest: DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution” by Sean B. Carroll:
Particular chunks of junk DNA, called long interspersed elements (LINES) and short interspersed elements (SINES), are very easy to detect. Once a SINE or LINE is inserted, there is no active mechanism for removing it. The insertion of these elements marks a gene in a species, and is then inherited by all species descended from it. They are really perfect tracers of genealogy. These insertion events are very rare; therefore, their presence in the same place in the DNA of two species can be explained only by the species sharing a common ancestor. The inheritance of variable markers in DNA is the same principle applied to paternity testing in humans. By surveying the distribution of a number of elements that arose at different times in different ancestors, biologists have sufficient forensic evidence to determine species’ kinship beyond any doubt.
The number of unique shared SINES is evidence of kinship and, when plotted, yields the tree shown in figure 4.4. The tree depicts chimpanzees are our closest relatives, bonobos as the chimps’ closest relative, and the gorilla and orangutan lines diverging before the last common ancestor of chimps and humans. There is no doubt about the accuracy of this tree.
Anyone who is able to understand the lead-pipe genetic evidence for evolution, has no reason to believe in the incredibly stupid idea there’s a magic man in the sky. The god nuts are either too lazy to understand the evidence, or they are not able to understand the evidence. In most cases the magic man believers have both problems. They are both lazy and dumb, which is exactly what I would expect from people who prefer the easy worthless god-did-it solution for everything. God-did-it is called the philosophy of ignorance, because only ignorant people invoke Mr. God.
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We got more everything-is-magic creationists than every other advanced country in the world.
Which basically supports what I said in #147 that precipitated your vitriol in #148.
So which is it?
BTW, even if it’s 10%, I’d consider that a small fraction, and I’d be willing to bet that a similar fraction of the prison population would claim there is no God. Do you have any evidence to support your belief that there are no atheists in prisons?
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“I’d be willing to bet that a similar fraction of the prison population would claim there is no God.”
You’re going to lose your money. Look it up if you want. The 30 million atheists in this country (and there is nothing “small” about 30 million), are way underrepresented in prisons. It’s almost impossible to find an atheist in prison.
In “The New Criminology”, Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said “Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character,” adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from penitentiariers or nearly so.
It took google less than a second to find this information. I have read it from other sources many times. Atheists rarely go to prison because they are much more likely to be normal citizens than holy rollers.
I myself have observed many times, and have read about, the immorality of Christians.
Dumb people are more likely to wind up in prison, and what could be more dumb than a belief in an invisible man in the sky?
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Qwerty,
#146, please…
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Qwerty is a Dawkins wannabee. Basically everything he spouts is either copied and pasted or just a paraphrasing of something Dawkins has stated.
They are good at accusing Christians of child abuse – but here’s a good thought – and to show I can do copy and paste too – from Charles Colson:
By “child abuse” Dawkins …means that teaching a child about Christianity can damage them psychologically and emotionally.
The “mental abuse” Dawkins refers to is the result of teaching children that nonbelievers will spend eternity in Hell. Dawkins calls this doctrine “an extreme threat of violence and pain” and “mental terrorism.” He rhetorically asks, “If you can sue for the long-term mental damage caused by physical child abuse, why should you not sue for the long-term mental damage caused by mental child abuse?”
Obviously, what Dawkins writes about Catholicism is equally true about any Christian tradition whose teaching is grounded in Scripture.
Dawkins’s accusations of child abuse are so absurd that it is hard to take them seriously. But someone will, so it is important to correct the record.
Yes, Christianity teaches that there is a Hell and that the unrepentant wicked will spend eternity there. But it also teaches that through His death and resurrection, Jesus freed those who believe in Him from that fate. To leave Jesus’ saving work out of any discussion of Hell is a distortion of Christian teaching.
What is also unfair is to criticize Christianity for its teachings on the afterlife without discussing the atheistic alternative presumably preferred by Dawkins and the other “new Atheists”: that is, when we die, we become worm food, and the universe soon forgets that we ever existed.
Now, that’s the stuff of real childhood nightmares! The idea that there is nothing beyond the grave is the stuff of countless anxieties. And, as Dostoevsky wrote, without belief in a God who judges us, human evil goes unchecked—that is, there is no justice.
In addition, Dawkins’s account of the effects of religion on children is, to put it mildly, incomplete. Surely, there is more to religion and children than teaching them about Hell.
There certainly is: Sociologists Christian Smith and Melinda Lundquist Denton studied the impact of religious practice on American teenagers. They found kids who were described as “devoted” or “regular” participants in religious activities did better than their un-churched counterparts. They did better at school; they were more active in the community; and, contrary to what Dawkins says, they scored higher on measures of “emotional well-being.”
In other words, Dawkins is completely wrong about the impact of faith on our kids—so wrong that, if he were consistent, he really might call atheism a form of “child abuse.”
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qwerty’s faith in science is touching. New discoveries are made every day, revealing how much we think we don’t know according to current theory.
“We think we understand the universe, but we only understand four percent of everything,” said James Watson Cronin, who won the 1980 Nobel for physics by proving that certain subatomic reactions escape the laws of fundamental symmetry.
http://www.physorg.com/news109658311.html
I don’t wish (or have time) to duplicate the debate I assume is on the other thread, but I will throw out a link critical of Carroll’s theory:
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Luskin_EvolutionaryGospel_030107.pdf
Scientists observe and make tentative theories. It takes an atheist to magically transform them into facts.
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According to qwerty, Christians are responsible for Hitler, but Atheists are not for Mao. This is a great example of atheist self-righteousness.
Atheists think they are perfect, because they can’t violate their personal moral standard – which basically amounts to doing whatever they want to do. Thus atheists like Mao disclaim all responsibility for others.
Atheism has no answer for those who are honest about their moral failures. Maybe that explains why so many sadly commit suicide.
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303
One more thing – Mao harmed more atheists than anyone. Then there was Stalin and Pol Pot. Atheists torturing and killing atheists is called a purge.
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Good posts by Amphibious and VS!
I especially liked the way VS points out that teaching our children they are meaningless and will one day simply become worm food is more akin to child abuse. I would add, though, that if the naturalistic theory that we are only advanced apes (or quasi-apes, as I believe Hitchens puts it), then why should we believe anything the naturalist says? Most folks I know don’t go around asking chimps for research analysis. If we really are only advanced goo formed by cosmic accident, then why does your bio-chemical reaction thought process mean anything more than mine?
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154. by Cameron 10.10.07 at 11:19 pm Qwerty, #146, please…
Sorry Cameron. I think you are nitpicking about something I’m not even very interested in. I don’t have time to respond to everyone, so when I think somebody is wasting my time, even if it’s not intentional, I ignore it.
Something must be done about the criminal who keeps sending spam to this blog (Crazy Gift Ideas, etc.) I would be in favor of hunting this person down, torturing him, and executing him, just to teach him a lesson.
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TJ said …teaching our children they are meaningless and will one day simply become worm food is more akin to child abuse.
Who said anyone is meaningless? I sure never said that.
Telling children the fact that they have only one life so they better not waste it, is not child abuse, it’s called telling the truth.
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#156 Amphipolis, the anti-science article you linked to was written by Casey Luskin.
Casey Luskin works for the Discovery Institute. Everybody who works for the Discovery Institute is a liar. Being a liar is a job requirement for anyone who wants to work there. They don’t discover anything. All they do is lie about science and lie about scientists, just to make money off of gullible god-did-it creationists.
On the evolution thread I explained why creationists love liars.
For many of these people, their entire lives revolve around their church. That’s where their friends are, and their religion is a major part of their life. Of course they are not going to be too willing to throw that out, even if there’s powerful evidence their most important belief, magical creation, is a fairy tale. This would explain their eagerness to believe any lie about evolution. This is why they love people like Behe, the other Discovery Institute clowns, the insane Ken Ham, etc. There is no way they are going to let some scientific fact completely change their entire lives.
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I did not endorse the link. I offered it to show that there are reasonable questions. It’s easy to call someone a liar. It’s harder to respond to what they say. If we put our faith in theories, there is no reason to test them and scientific progress stops. Science becomes magic.
You are not a scientific authority. If you were, you would not throw around so much certainty regarding it. It is illogical to assume as you have done that we will understand everything (or even most things) via science. Science is based on trial and error with a merciful dose of serendipity. We may never encounter the observations we need to understand the universe, and our minds may not be able to grasp it if we do. Our instruments may not be able to detect it. Science is based on reason, not blind faith even in science. Science is limited. Any reasonable scientist knows this. That is why they do what they do – trying their hardest to understand more, because we understand so little. Your faith is misplaced.
You don’t practice science, you worship it.
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It’s easy to call someone a liar.
I call every clown who works for the Discovery Institute a liar, because they are liars. It isn’t just me who has noticed this. Ask any biologist in the world. The entire scientific community knows the Discovery Institute exists only to spread lies about science and scientists.
I did not endorse the link. I offered it to show that there are reasonable questions.
There is nothing reasonable about the Discovery Institute. If you expect anyone to take you seriously, you need to understand that.
If we put our faith in theories, there is no reason to test them and scientific progress stops.
Evolution is a theory just like gravity is a theory.
Evolution is also a proven fact, proven beyond any doubt.
You, Amphipolis, whether you are willing to admit it or not, are an animal of an ape species. Your closest living non-human relatives are the chimpanzees. Your next closest living non-human relatives are the bonobos. These are all Great Ape species. Humans are also a Great Ape species.
These are all proven facts. Deny modern science all you want. It won’t do any good. Facts are facts, whether or not you want to face those facts.
“there is no reason to test them”
Evolution is being tested every single day. I’ll let the biologist PZ Myers explain it for you.
My point here is that there is an incredible amount of evidence for evolution, far more than any one person can digest, and that it is a vital field, still growing and still producing new results. All those papers don’t get published unless they contain some new observation, a new experiment, a new test of the idea…and evolution has weathered them all.
You also, for some strange reason, said “Science becomes magic.”
God is another word for magic. Scientists never invoke God because invoking God accomplishes nothing.
The worthless clowns who work for the Discovery Institute invoke God for virtually everything. Because they are dishonestly trying to disguise god-did-it to look like science, they call God the Designer. They are fooling nobody. Everybody knows they are trying to disguise god-did-it creationism to look like science in a pathetic and failed attempt to force public school science teachers to teach the stupidity of Genesis, which is a religious belief, and which has absolutely nothing to do with science.
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Re: posts 165 and 167…looks like even registration isn’t enough to completely eliminate the blog spammers.
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qwerty, namecalling is not an argument. Labeling an opponent a liar without responding to his argument makes you look like a fool. You need to show how his argument is wrong, and then maybe claim he is deliberately lying – which is harder to prove.
Evolution is a theory just like gravity is a theory.
Yes. Can you explain one of the competing gravity theories? I’d like to see you try.
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Amphipolis, I stand by my statement. The Discovery Institute hires only liars.
You don’t have to believe me. Ask any biologist in the world.
About your question – you have as much interest in gravity as I do, none. I really don’t much care for when people try to waste my time.
“Labeling an opponent a liar without responding to his argument makes you look like a fool.”
This is just another attempt to waste my time. Your suggestion I waste time responding to a known liar would accomplish what?
I suggest you take what I said about the Disco Institute seriously. I said “ask any biologist” because I know what every biologist knows. The Disco Institute is famous for their lying. Lies are the only thing they are there for. That’s their business, lying about science and they make their money from the gullible creationists who believe them. So do you want to listen to me, or do you want to be sucker?
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