Comments on: When Christians and conservatives diverge http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/ A forum for discussion of news that arises at the intersection of Christianity and culture. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:12:29 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Amphipolis http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-226559 Amphipolis Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:23:58 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-226559 Coyote: Yes we should do so! I thought I made my opinion on that clear with my previous posts. I'm just pointing out the history of it. As you implied, what Hitler did changed everything and made people aware of the horror of it as a crime against humanity. That does not mean that similar things did not happen before. By odd I meant historically odd, not wrong. Coyote:

Yes we should do so! I thought I made my opinion on that clear with my previous posts. I’m just pointing out the history of it. As you implied, what Hitler did changed everything and made people aware of the horror of it as a crime against humanity. That does not mean that similar things did not happen before.

By odd I meant historically odd, not wrong.

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]]> By: CoyoteBlue http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-226501 CoyoteBlue Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:50:36 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-226501 Amph The fact that we condemn human rights violations today, is what is different -- something that began after World War II. If your point is that we should not do so, then it is you who are out of step with modern trends. Amph

The fact that we condemn human rights violations today, is what is different — something that began after World War II.

If your point is that we should not do so, then it is you who are out of step with modern trends.

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]]> By: Amphipolis http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-226366 Amphipolis Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:18:21 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-226366 American Indians practiced genocide. They attempted to completely exterminate other tribes. The Mongols did the same to the Assassins and others. Millions died, even their pets were killed. The Romans fought the Third Punic War for similar reasons. The destruction was so complete that until recently we didn't even know precisely where Carthage had been. I could argue that the worshippers of Kali almost made it a religion in India, giving us the word thug. Genocide is probably as old as humanity. The fact that we condemn it today is what is odd. American Indians practiced genocide. They attempted to completely exterminate other tribes. The Mongols did the same to the Assassins and others. Millions died, even their pets were killed. The Romans fought the Third Punic War for similar reasons. The destruction was so complete that until recently we didn’t even know precisely where Carthage had been. I could argue that the worshippers of Kali almost made it a religion in India, giving us the word thug.

Genocide is probably as old as humanity. The fact that we condemn it today is what is odd.

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]]> By: DR http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-226263 DR Tue, 16 Oct 2007 01:36:51 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-226263 Genocide wasn't even in use back when the Armenians were attacked. What Turkey did does fit the current definition, however. As horrible as what happened was - as others have ably shown - this is congress wasting time when there is real work to be done. The best move would be to table the resolution and get on with the business of legislating (ie what we sent these guys to DC to do). As Christians, we can speak the historical truth, but this resolution really should just be ignored; its one side playing politics with history and wasting time, potentially alienating an important ally in the process (Turkish airspace has been pretty handy in our recent endeavors). But if congress does wind up passing the resolution, I have a list of historical atrocities for them to condemn. Genocide wasn’t even in use back when the Armenians were attacked. What Turkey did does fit the current definition, however.

As horrible as what happened was – as others have ably shown – this is congress wasting time when there is real work to be done. The best move would be to table the resolution and get on with the business of legislating (ie what we sent these guys to DC to do).

As Christians, we can speak the historical truth, but this resolution really should just be ignored; its one side playing politics with history and wasting time, potentially alienating an important ally in the process (Turkish airspace has been pretty handy in our recent endeavors).

But if congress does wind up passing the resolution, I have a list of historical atrocities for them to condemn.

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]]> By: CoyoteBlue http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-225587 CoyoteBlue Sat, 13 Oct 2007 23:00:41 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-225587 Amph There is a real power in just acknowledging a thing. It makes a difference for both descendants of victims and perpetrators. It may be hard to understand. Think of it as when there is a rotting corpse of an elephant under the rug and you think you are the only one who sees it. Then someone says they see it too. For action the first step actually is acknowledging the problem and then taking steps. Can genocides be stopped without force? Probably not, but then I'm not sure anyone at this point in our history advocates military force in such situations. Though with R2P we are getting closer. Amph

There is a real power in just acknowledging a thing. It makes a difference for both descendants of victims and perpetrators. It may be hard to understand. Think of it as when there is a rotting corpse of an elephant under the rug and you think you are the only one who sees it. Then someone says they see it too.

For action the first step actually is acknowledging the problem and then taking steps. Can genocides be stopped without force? Probably not, but then I’m not sure anyone at this point in our history advocates military force in such situations. Though with R2P we are getting closer.

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]]> By: Amphipolis http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-225569 Amphipolis Sat, 13 Oct 2007 22:14:47 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-225569 It’s a feel good thing, this condemning of a far away country for something that happened a long time ago. It makes us feel so righteous. We proudly speak the truth. People should take notice, people should respect us. It all feels so good, it is a pity that it really changes nothing. No – it makes our words ring even more hollow. If we wish to stop genocide, or atrocities that are virtual genocide, then we will do something about it. Talking and visits do nothing except make us look like impotent fools. Sanctions and other financial actions are not much better. All these things are cheap. They require no sacrifice. Not one thug will think twice for fear of contributing to an unborn grandchild’s diplomatic incident. Nonbinding resolutions promote cowardice, not human rights and democracy. If we wish to stop genocide, we now have the power to do it, power we did not have 100 years ago. What is lacking is the will. If we had the power back then to save the Armenians, should we not have done it? What would we say today about those that held back? Why not just be honest – pass a resolution saying that we don’t like genocide but we will not use our power in any meaningful way to stop it because we are afraid we might hurt someone. It’s a feel good thing, this condemning of a far away country for something that happened a long time ago. It makes us feel so righteous. We proudly speak the truth. People should take notice, people should respect us. It all feels so good, it is a pity that it really changes nothing. No – it makes our words ring even more hollow.

If we wish to stop genocide, or atrocities that are virtual genocide, then we will do something about it. Talking and visits do nothing except make us look like impotent fools. Sanctions and other financial actions are not much better. All these things are cheap. They require no sacrifice. Not one thug will think twice for fear of contributing to an unborn grandchild’s diplomatic incident. Nonbinding resolutions promote cowardice, not human rights and democracy.

If we wish to stop genocide, we now have the power to do it, power we did not have 100 years ago. What is lacking is the will. If we had the power back then to save the Armenians, should we not have done it? What would we say today about those that held back?

Why not just be honest – pass a resolution saying that we don’t like genocide but we will not use our power in any meaningful way to stop it because we are afraid we might hurt someone.

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]]> By: CoyoteBlue http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-225460 CoyoteBlue Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:49:43 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-225460 Tony Genocide always presents this problem because the genocide prevention is thought by many experts to require a response to the perpetrators. Rwanda was not declared a genocide until after it was done for just that reason. The question of what to do with a genocide is not just for Christians but also for moral people everywhere. You and readers might be interested in the debate surrounding the concept of the responsibility to protect if you have not explored it. R2P is a second generation thought on what to do when there are massive humanitarian and human rights violations. On Turkey though the reaction from the Turks is more likely a tempest in a teapot. They have had similar reactions to Congress before on the genocide issue, however, no Administration that I know of has gone on record whether it has a Republican or Democratic bent. Quite frankly this resolution will not affect Turkish reaction to the PKK in Iraq one way or the other. But buying into the notion that nothing must be said to maintain national interests is an argument that mitigates against promoting human rights and democracy in the first place. There is a tension between human rights and democracy promotion, geopolitical strategy and national interests that is a much more interesting debate than the narrow confines of blind support for Conservative positions (I even take issue with that though as many Conservative politicians did support the measure.) I disagree with the points above on why the Congress should not address such issues particularly those which state the Congress should do something about present human rights and humanitarian problems -- Congress is doing something namely through appropriations but also by visiting Sudan, for example in person to express to the regime views that are in sync with the Administration. What is striking to me is the criticism without real knowledge -- it's a kneejerk reaction that those libs who run Congress are up to no good. Tony

Genocide always presents this problem because the genocide prevention is thought by many experts to require a response to the perpetrators. Rwanda was not declared a genocide until after it was done for just that reason. The question of what to do with a genocide is not just for Christians but also for moral people everywhere. You and readers might be interested in the debate surrounding the concept of the responsibility to protect if you have not explored it. R2P is a second generation thought on what to do when there are massive humanitarian and human rights violations.

On Turkey though the reaction from the Turks is more likely a tempest in a teapot. They have had similar reactions to Congress before on the genocide issue, however, no Administration that I know of has gone on record whether it has a Republican or Democratic bent. Quite frankly this resolution will not affect Turkish reaction to the PKK in Iraq one way or the other. But buying into the notion that nothing must be said to maintain national interests is an argument that mitigates against promoting human rights and democracy in the first place. There is a tension between human rights and democracy promotion, geopolitical strategy and national interests that is a much more interesting debate than the narrow confines of blind support for Conservative positions (I even take issue with that though as many Conservative politicians did support the measure.)

I disagree with the points above on why the Congress should not address such issues particularly those which state the Congress should do something about present human rights and humanitarian problems — Congress is doing something namely through appropriations but also by visiting Sudan, for example in person to express to the regime views that are in sync with the Administration. What is striking to me is the criticism without real knowledge — it’s a kneejerk reaction that those libs who run Congress are up to no good.

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]]> By: Tony Woodlief http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-225414 Tony Woodlief Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:54:11 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-225414 Coyote, I didn't intend to imply that a small-c conservative wouldn't support such a resolution, but rather that a big-C Conservative (someone whose positions stem more from his identification with a political coalition, rather than a philosophical grounding) would be unlikely to support the resolution. My larger point is more a suspicion, really, that we white, evangelical Christians are prone to adopt a Conservative, and even Republican, view on policy, and to give undue allegiance and deference to national figures who wear those labels. With regard to this specific resolution, it struck me that we end up supporting the notion that a truth -- that the Turks committed genocide -- should not be spoken. Amphipolis and others here have made some good points about why the House resolution is a bad idea, but it still makes me feel queasy (and I think it should make us, as Christians, feel queasy) that we are in a position where we argue that a truth should not be declared. Coyote,

I didn’t intend to imply that a small-c conservative wouldn’t support such a resolution, but rather that a big-C Conservative (someone whose positions stem more from his identification with a political coalition, rather than a philosophical grounding) would be unlikely to support the resolution.

My larger point is more a suspicion, really, that we white, evangelical Christians are prone to adopt a Conservative, and even Republican, view on policy, and to give undue allegiance and deference to national figures who wear those labels. With regard to this specific resolution, it struck me that we end up supporting the notion that a truth — that the Turks committed genocide — should not be spoken.

Amphipolis and others here have made some good points about why the House resolution is a bad idea, but it still makes me feel queasy (and I think it should make us, as Christians, feel queasy) that we are in a position where we argue that a truth should not be declared.

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]]> By: CoyoteBlue http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-225390 CoyoteBlue Sat, 13 Oct 2007 04:14:56 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-225390 For good measure here is the entire list of House co-sponsors: Rep Abercrombie, Neil [HI-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Ackerman, Gary L. [NY-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Allen, Thomas H. [ME-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Andrews, Robert E. [NJ-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Arcuri, Michael A. [NY-24] - 7/18/2007 Rep Baca, Joe [CA-43] - 1/31/2007 Rep Bachmann, Michele [MN-6] - 3/1/2007 Rep Baird, Brian [WA-3] - 3/12/2007 Rep Baldwin, Tammy [WI-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Barrow, John [GA-12] - 6/20/2007 Rep Bean, Melissa L. [IL-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Becerra, Xavier [CA-31] - 1/31/2007 Rep Berkley, Shelley [NV-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Berman, Howard L. [CA-28] - 1/31/2007 Rep Berry, Marion [AR-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Bilbray, Brian P. [CA-50] - 3/12/2007 Rep Bilirakis, Gus M. [FL-9] - 1/31/2007 Rep Bishop, Sanford D., Jr. [GA-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Bishop, Timothy H. [NY-1] - 4/19/2007 Rep Blumenauer, Earl [OR-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Bono, Mary [CA-45] - 1/31/2007 Rep Bordallo, Madeleine Z. [GU] - 6/21/2007 Rep Boyd, Allen [FL-2] - 6/28/2007 Rep Brady, Robert A. [PA-1] - 3/12/2007 Rep Braley, Bruce L. [IA-1] - 4/19/2007 Rep Butterfield, G. K. [NC-1] - 6/28/2007 Rep Calvert, Ken [CA-44] - 1/31/2007 Rep Camp, Dave [MI-4] - 6/7/2007 Rep Campbell, John [CA-48] - 1/31/2007 Rep Cantor, Eric [VA-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Capps, Lois [CA-23] - 1/31/2007 Rep Capuano, Michael E. [MA-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Cardoza, Dennis A. [CA-18] - 1/31/2007 Rep Carson, Julia [IN-7] - 6/28/2007 Rep Christensen, Donna M. [VI] - 7/10/2007 Rep Clarke, Yvette D. [NY-11] - 4/16/2007 Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy [MO-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Cleaver, Emanuel [MO-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] - 1/31/2007 Rep Costa, Jim [CA-20] - 1/31/2007 Rep Costello, Jerry F. [IL-12] - 1/31/2007 Rep Courtney, Joe [CT-2] - 5/14/2007 Rep Crowley, Joseph [NY-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Cummings, Elijah E. [MD-7] - 6/28/2007 Rep Davis, Artur [AL-7] - 6/26/2007 Rep Davis, Danny K. [IL-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Davis, Lincoln [TN-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Davis, Susan A. [CA-53] - 1/31/2007 Rep DeFazio, Peter A. [OR-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep DeGette, Diana [CO-1] - 2/5/2007 Rep Delahunt, William D. [MA-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep DeLauro, Rosa L. [CT-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Dent, Charles W. [PA-15] - 1/31/2007 Rep Diaz-Balart, Lincoln [FL-21] - 1/31/2007 Rep Diaz-Balart, Mario [FL-25] - 1/31/2007 Rep Dingell, John D. [MI-15] - 1/31/2007 Rep Doggett, Lloyd [TX-25] - 1/31/2007 Rep Doolittle, John T. [CA-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Doyle, Michael F. [PA-14] - 1/31/2007 Rep Dreier, David [CA-26] - 1/31/2007 Rep Ellison, Keith [MN-5] - 2/5/2007 Rep Engel, Eliot L. [NY-17] - 1/31/2007 Rep Eshoo, Anna G. [CA-14] - 1/31/2007 Rep Farr, Sam [CA-17] - 1/31/2007 Rep Fattah, Chaka [PA-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Ferguson, Mike [NJ-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Filner, Bob [CA-51] - 1/31/2007 Rep Fortuno, Luis G. [PR] - 10/4/2007 Rep Frank, Barney [MA-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Frelinghuysen, Rodney P. [NJ-11] - 1/31/2007 Rep Garrett, Scott [NJ-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Gerlach, Jim [PA-6] - 1/31/2007 Rep Gillibrand, Kirsten E. [NY-20] - 7/18/2007 Rep Gonzalez, Charles A. [TX-20] - 1/31/2007 Rep Green, Al [TX-9] - 3/1/2007 Rep Green, Gene [TX-29] - 2/5/2007 Rep Grijalva, Raul M. [AZ-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Gutierrez, Luis V. [IL-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Hall, John J. [NY-19] - 8/2/2007 Rep Hare, Phil [IL-17] - 1/31/2007 Rep Harman, Jane [CA-36] - 2/8/2007 Rep Herger, Wally [CA-2] - 7/18/2007 Rep Herseth, Stephanie [SD] - 1/31/2007 Rep Hinchey, Maurice D. [NY-22] - 1/31/2007 Rep Hinojosa, Ruben [TX-15] - 1/31/2007 Rep Hirono, Mazie K. [HI-2] - 6/20/2007 Rep Hodes, Paul W. [NH-2] - 5/9/2007 Rep Holden, Tim [PA-17] - 1/31/2007 Rep Holt, Rush D. [NJ-12] - 1/31/2007 Rep Honda, Michael M. [CA-15] - 1/31/2007 Rep Hunter, Duncan [CA-52] - 4/16/2007 Rep Israel, Steve [NY-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Issa, Darrell E. [CA-49] - 1/31/2007 Rep Jackson, Jesse L., Jr. [IL-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila [TX-18] - 1/31/2007 Rep Johnson, Henry C. "Hank," Jr. [GA-4] - 2/8/2007 Rep Jones, Stephanie Tubbs [OH-11] - 1/31/2007 Rep Kagen, Steve [WI-8] - 6/28/2007 Rep Kennedy, Patrick J. [RI-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Kildee, Dale E. [MI-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Kilpatrick, Carolyn C. [MI-13] - 1/31/2007 Rep Kind, Ron [WI-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Kingston, Jack [GA-1] - 6/26/2007 Rep Kirk, Mark Steven [IL-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep Knollenberg, Joe [MI-9] - 1/30/2007 Rep Kucinich, Dennis J. [OH-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep Kuhl, John R. "Randy", Jr. [NY-29] - 6/20/2007 Rep LaHood, Ray [IL-18] - 8/2/2007 Rep Lamborn, Doug [CO-5] - 2/8/2007 Rep Langevin, James R. [RI-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Larsen, Rick [WA-2] - 6/28/2007 Rep Larson, John B. [CT-1] - 5/24/2007 Rep LaTourette, Steven C. [OH-14] - 3/1/2007 Rep Lee, Barbara [CA-9] - 1/31/2007 Rep Levin, Sander M. [MI-12] - 1/31/2007 Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Lipinski, Daniel [IL-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep LoBiondo, Frank A. [NJ-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Lofgren, Zoe [CA-16] - 1/31/2007 Rep Lowey, Nita M. [NY-18] - 1/31/2007 Rep Lungren, Daniel E. [CA-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Lynch, Stephen F. [MA-9] - 1/31/2007 Rep Maloney, Carolyn B. [NY-14] - 1/31/2007 Rep Marchant, Kenny [TX-24] - 2/8/2007 Rep Markey, Edward J. [MA-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Marshall, Jim [GA-8] - 6/26/2007 Rep Matheson, Jim [UT-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Matsui, Doris O. [CA-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep McCarthy, Carolyn [NY-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep McCarthy, Kevin [CA-22] - 2/5/2007 Rep McCaul, Michael T. [TX-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep McCollum, Betty [MN-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep McCotter, Thaddeus G. [MI-11] - 1/30/2007 Rep McDermott, Jim [WA-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep McGovern, James P. [MA-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep McHugh, John M. [NY-23] - 8/2/2007 Rep McKeon, Howard P. "Buck" [CA-25] - 1/31/2007 Rep McMorris Rodgers, Cathy [WA-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep McNerney, Jerry [CA-11] - 2/5/2007 Rep McNulty, Michael R. [NY-21] - 1/31/2007 Rep Meehan, Martin T. [MA-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Meek, Kendrick B. [FL-17] - 6/21/2007 Rep Melancon, Charlie [LA-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Michaud, Michael H. [ME-2] - 2/8/2007 Rep Millender-McDonald, Juanita [CA-37] - 1/31/2007 Rep Miller, Candice S. [MI-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep Miller, Gary G. [CA-42] - 3/29/2007 Rep Miller, George [CA-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Mitchell, Harry E. [AZ-5] - 6/21/2007 Rep Moran, James P. [VA-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Murphy, Christopher S. [CT-5] - 5/21/2007 Rep Musgrave, Marilyn N. [CO-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Nadler, Jerrold [NY-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Napolitano, Grace F. [CA-38] - 1/31/2007 Rep Neal, Richard E. [MA-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes [DC] - 1/31/2007 Rep Nunes, Devin [CA-21] - 1/31/2007 Rep Olver, John W. [MA-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Pallone, Frank, Jr. [NJ-6] - 1/30/2007 Rep Pastor, Ed [AZ-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Payne, Donald M. [NJ-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep Perlmutter, Ed [CO-7] - 3/29/2007 Rep Peterson, Collin C. [MN-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Pitts, Joseph R. [PA-16] - 6/7/2007 Rep Porter, Jon C. [NV-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Radanovich, George [CA-19] - 1/30/2007 Rep Rangel, Charles B. [NY-15] - 1/31/2007 Rep Reichert, David G. [WA-8] - 4/16/2007 Rep Renzi, Rick [AZ-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Richardson, Laura [CA-37] - 10/4/2007 Rep Rodriguez, Ciro D. [TX-23] - 6/26/2007 Rep Rogers, Mike J. [MI-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Rohrabacher, Dana [CA-46] - 1/31/2007 Rep Roskam, Peter J. [IL-6] - 5/21/2007 Rep Ross, Mike [AR-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Rothman, Steven R. [NJ-9] - 1/31/2007 Rep Roybal-Allard, Lucille [CA-34] - 1/31/2007 Rep Royce, Edward R. [CA-40] - 1/31/2007 Rep Rush, Bobby L. [IL-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Ryan, Paul [WI-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Ryan, Tim [OH-17] - 1/31/2007 Rep Salazar, John T. [CO-3] - 4/16/2007 Rep Sanchez, Linda T. [CA-39] - 1/31/2007 Rep Sanchez, Loretta [CA-47] - 1/31/2007 Rep Sarbanes, John P. [MD-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Schakowsky, Janice D. [IL-9] - 1/31/2007 Rep Schwartz, Allyson Y. [PA-13] - 1/31/2007 Rep Scott, Robert C. "Bobby" [VA-3] - 6/28/2007 Rep Sensenbrenner, F. James, Jr. [WI-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Serrano, Jose E. [NY-16] - 6/26/2007 Rep Shays, Christopher [CT-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Sherman, Brad [CA-27] - 1/30/2007 Rep Sires, Albio [NJ-13] - 1/31/2007 Rep Smith, Christopher H. [NJ-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Solis, Hilda L. [CA-32] - 1/31/2007 Rep Souder, Mark E. [IN-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Space, Zachary T. [OH-18] - 3/12/2007 Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] - 1/31/2007 Rep Sutton, Betty [OH-13] - 3/29/2007 Rep Tauscher, Ellen O. [CA-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep Thompson, Bennie G. [MS-2] - 6/20/2007 Rep Thompson, Mike [CA-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Tierney, John F. [MA-6] - 1/31/2007 Rep Towns, Edolphus [NY-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep Udall, Mark [CO-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Udall, Tom [NM-3] - 5/14/2007 Rep Van Hollen, Chris [MD-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. [NY-12] - 2/5/2007 Rep Visclosky, Peter J. [IN-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Walberg, Timothy [MI-7] - 6/7/2007 Rep Walsh, James T. [NY-25] - 2/8/2007 Rep Walz, Timothy J. [MN-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Wamp, Zach [TN-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Waters, Maxine [CA-35] - 1/31/2007 Rep Watson, Diane E. [CA-33] - 1/31/2007 Rep Watt, Melvin L. [NC-12] - 6/28/2007 Rep Waxman, Henry A. [CA-30] - 1/31/2007 Rep Weiner, Anthony D. [NY-9] - 1/31/2007 Rep Weller, Jerry [IL-11] - 1/31/2007 Rep Wilson, Joe [SC-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Wolf, Frank R. [VA-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. [CA-6] - 1/31/2007 Rep Wu, David [OR-1] - 2/8/2007 Rep Wynn, Albert Russell [MD-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Yarmuth, John A. [KY-3] - 7/10/2007 More than one conservative in that list, including a popular pick around hereabouts for President. For good measure here is the entire list of House co-sponsors:

Rep Abercrombie, Neil [HI-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Ackerman, Gary L. [NY-5] – 1/31/2007
Rep Allen, Thomas H. [ME-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Andrews, Robert E. [NJ-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Arcuri, Michael A. [NY-24] – 7/18/2007
Rep Baca, Joe [CA-43] – 1/31/2007
Rep Bachmann, Michele [MN-6] – 3/1/2007
Rep Baird, Brian [WA-3] – 3/12/2007
Rep Baldwin, Tammy [WI-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Barrow, John [GA-12] – 6/20/2007
Rep Bean, Melissa L. [IL-8] – 1/31/2007
Rep Becerra, Xavier [CA-31] – 1/31/2007
Rep Berkley, Shelley [NV-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Berman, Howard L. [CA-28] – 1/31/2007
Rep Berry, Marion [AR-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Bilbray, Brian P. [CA-50] – 3/12/2007
Rep Bilirakis, Gus M. [FL-9] – 1/31/2007
Rep Bishop, Sanford D., Jr. [GA-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Bishop, Timothy H. [NY-1] – 4/19/2007
Rep Blumenauer, Earl [OR-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep Bono, Mary [CA-45] – 1/31/2007
Rep Bordallo, Madeleine Z. [GU] – 6/21/2007
Rep Boyd, Allen [FL-2] – 6/28/2007
Rep Brady, Robert A. [PA-1] – 3/12/2007
Rep Braley, Bruce L. [IA-1] – 4/19/2007
Rep Butterfield, G. K. [NC-1] – 6/28/2007
Rep Calvert, Ken [CA-44] – 1/31/2007
Rep Camp, Dave [MI-4] – 6/7/2007
Rep Campbell, John [CA-48] – 1/31/2007
Rep Cantor, Eric [VA-7] – 1/31/2007
Rep Capps, Lois [CA-23] – 1/31/2007
Rep Capuano, Michael E. [MA-8] – 1/31/2007
Rep Cardoza, Dennis A. [CA-18] – 1/31/2007
Rep Carson, Julia [IN-7] – 6/28/2007
Rep Christensen, Donna M. [VI] – 7/10/2007
Rep Clarke, Yvette D. [NY-11] – 4/16/2007
Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy [MO-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Cleaver, Emanuel [MO-5] – 1/31/2007
Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] – 1/31/2007
Rep Costa, Jim [CA-20] – 1/31/2007
Rep Costello, Jerry F. [IL-12] – 1/31/2007
Rep Courtney, Joe [CT-2] – 5/14/2007
Rep Crowley, Joseph [NY-7] – 1/31/2007
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. [MD-7] – 6/28/2007
Rep Davis, Artur [AL-7] – 6/26/2007
Rep Davis, Danny K. [IL-7] – 1/31/2007
Rep Davis, Lincoln [TN-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Davis, Susan A. [CA-53] – 1/31/2007
Rep DeFazio, Peter A. [OR-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep DeGette, Diana [CO-1] – 2/5/2007
Rep Delahunt, William D. [MA-10] – 1/31/2007
Rep DeLauro, Rosa L. [CT-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep Dent, Charles W. [PA-15] – 1/31/2007
Rep Diaz-Balart, Lincoln [FL-21] – 1/31/2007
Rep Diaz-Balart, Mario [FL-25] – 1/31/2007
Rep Dingell, John D. [MI-15] – 1/31/2007
Rep Doggett, Lloyd [TX-25] – 1/31/2007
Rep Doolittle, John T. [CA-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Doyle, Michael F. [PA-14] – 1/31/2007
Rep Dreier, David [CA-26] – 1/31/2007
Rep Ellison, Keith [MN-5] – 2/5/2007
Rep Engel, Eliot L. [NY-17] – 1/31/2007
Rep Eshoo, Anna G. [CA-14] – 1/31/2007
Rep Farr, Sam [CA-17] – 1/31/2007
Rep Fattah, Chaka [PA-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Ferguson, Mike [NJ-7] – 1/31/2007
Rep Filner, Bob [CA-51] – 1/31/2007
Rep Fortuno, Luis G. [PR] – 10/4/2007
Rep Frank, Barney [MA-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Frelinghuysen, Rodney P. [NJ-11] – 1/31/2007
Rep Garrett, Scott [NJ-5] – 1/31/2007
Rep Gerlach, Jim [PA-6] – 1/31/2007
Rep Gillibrand, Kirsten E. [NY-20] – 7/18/2007
Rep Gonzalez, Charles A. [TX-20] – 1/31/2007
Rep Green, Al [TX-9] – 3/1/2007
Rep Green, Gene [TX-29] – 2/5/2007
Rep Grijalva, Raul M. [AZ-7] – 1/31/2007
Rep Gutierrez, Luis V. [IL-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Hall, John J. [NY-19] – 8/2/2007
Rep Hare, Phil [IL-17] – 1/31/2007
Rep Harman, Jane [CA-36] – 2/8/2007
Rep Herger, Wally [CA-2] – 7/18/2007
Rep Herseth, Stephanie [SD] – 1/31/2007
Rep Hinchey, Maurice D. [NY-22] – 1/31/2007
Rep Hinojosa, Ruben [TX-15] – 1/31/2007
Rep Hirono, Mazie K. [HI-2] – 6/20/2007
Rep Hodes, Paul W. [NH-2] – 5/9/2007
Rep Holden, Tim [PA-17] – 1/31/2007
Rep Holt, Rush D. [NJ-12] – 1/31/2007
Rep Honda, Michael M. [CA-15] – 1/31/2007
Rep Hunter, Duncan [CA-52] – 4/16/2007
Rep Israel, Steve [NY-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Issa, Darrell E. [CA-49] – 1/31/2007
Rep Jackson, Jesse L., Jr. [IL-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila [TX-18] – 1/31/2007
Rep Johnson, Henry C. “Hank,” Jr. [GA-4] – 2/8/2007
Rep Jones, Stephanie Tubbs [OH-11] – 1/31/2007
Rep Kagen, Steve [WI-8] – 6/28/2007
Rep Kennedy, Patrick J. [RI-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Kildee, Dale E. [MI-5] – 1/31/2007
Rep Kilpatrick, Carolyn C. [MI-13] – 1/31/2007
Rep Kind, Ron [WI-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep Kingston, Jack [GA-1] – 6/26/2007
Rep Kirk, Mark Steven [IL-10] – 1/31/2007
Rep Knollenberg, Joe [MI-9] – 1/30/2007
Rep Kucinich, Dennis J. [OH-10] – 1/31/2007
Rep Kuhl, John R. “Randy”, Jr. [NY-29] – 6/20/2007
Rep LaHood, Ray [IL-18] – 8/2/2007
Rep Lamborn, Doug [CO-5] – 2/8/2007
Rep Langevin, James R. [RI-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Larsen, Rick [WA-2] – 6/28/2007
Rep Larson, John B. [CT-1] – 5/24/2007
Rep LaTourette, Steven C. [OH-14] – 3/1/2007
Rep Lee, Barbara [CA-9] – 1/31/2007
Rep Levin, Sander M. [MI-12] – 1/31/2007
Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] – 1/31/2007
Rep Lipinski, Daniel [IL-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep LoBiondo, Frank A. [NJ-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Lofgren, Zoe [CA-16] – 1/31/2007
Rep Lowey, Nita M. [NY-18] – 1/31/2007
Rep Lungren, Daniel E. [CA-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep Lynch, Stephen F. [MA-9] – 1/31/2007
Rep Maloney, Carolyn B. [NY-14] – 1/31/2007
Rep Marchant, Kenny [TX-24] – 2/8/2007
Rep Markey, Edward J. [MA-7] – 1/31/2007
Rep Marshall, Jim [GA-8] – 6/26/2007
Rep Matheson, Jim [UT-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Matsui, Doris O. [CA-5] – 1/31/2007
Rep McCarthy, Carolyn [NY-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep McCarthy, Kevin [CA-22] – 2/5/2007
Rep McCaul, Michael T. [TX-10] – 1/31/2007
Rep McCollum, Betty [MN-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep McCotter, Thaddeus G. [MI-11] – 1/30/2007
Rep McDermott, Jim [WA-7] – 1/31/2007
Rep McGovern, James P. [MA-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep McHugh, John M. [NY-23] – 8/2/2007
Rep McKeon, Howard P. “Buck” [CA-25] – 1/31/2007
Rep McMorris Rodgers, Cathy [WA-5] – 1/31/2007
Rep McNerney, Jerry [CA-11] – 2/5/2007
Rep McNulty, Michael R. [NY-21] – 1/31/2007
Rep Meehan, Martin T. [MA-5] – 1/31/2007
Rep Meek, Kendrick B. [FL-17] – 6/21/2007
Rep Melancon, Charlie [LA-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep Michaud, Michael H. [ME-2] – 2/8/2007
Rep Millender-McDonald, Juanita [CA-37] – 1/31/2007
Rep Miller, Candice S. [MI-10] – 1/31/2007
Rep Miller, Gary G. [CA-42] – 3/29/2007
Rep Miller, George [CA-7] – 1/31/2007
Rep Mitchell, Harry E. [AZ-5] – 6/21/2007
Rep Moran, James P. [VA-8] – 1/31/2007
Rep Murphy, Christopher S. [CT-5] – 5/21/2007
Rep Musgrave, Marilyn N. [CO-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Nadler, Jerrold [NY-8] – 1/31/2007
Rep Napolitano, Grace F. [CA-38] – 1/31/2007
Rep Neal, Richard E. [MA-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes [DC] – 1/31/2007
Rep Nunes, Devin [CA-21] – 1/31/2007
Rep Olver, John W. [MA-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Pallone, Frank, Jr. [NJ-6] – 1/30/2007
Rep Pastor, Ed [AZ-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Payne, Donald M. [NJ-10] – 1/31/2007
Rep Perlmutter, Ed [CO-7] – 3/29/2007
Rep Peterson, Collin C. [MN-7] – 1/31/2007
Rep Pitts, Joseph R. [PA-16] – 6/7/2007
Rep Porter, Jon C. [NV-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep Radanovich, George [CA-19] – 1/30/2007
Rep Rangel, Charles B. [NY-15] – 1/31/2007
Rep Reichert, David G. [WA-8] – 4/16/2007
Rep Renzi, Rick [AZ-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Richardson, Laura [CA-37] – 10/4/2007
Rep Rodriguez, Ciro D. [TX-23] – 6/26/2007
Rep Rogers, Mike J. [MI-8] – 1/31/2007
Rep Rohrabacher, Dana [CA-46] – 1/31/2007
Rep Roskam, Peter J. [IL-6] – 5/21/2007
Rep Ross, Mike [AR-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Rothman, Steven R. [NJ-9] – 1/31/2007
Rep Roybal-Allard, Lucille [CA-34] – 1/31/2007
Rep Royce, Edward R. [CA-40] – 1/31/2007
Rep Rush, Bobby L. [IL-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Ryan, Paul [WI-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Ryan, Tim [OH-17] – 1/31/2007
Rep Salazar, John T. [CO-3] – 4/16/2007
Rep Sanchez, Linda T. [CA-39] – 1/31/2007
Rep Sanchez, Loretta [CA-47] – 1/31/2007
Rep Sarbanes, John P. [MD-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep Schakowsky, Janice D. [IL-9] – 1/31/2007
Rep Schwartz, Allyson Y. [PA-13] – 1/31/2007
Rep Scott, Robert C. “Bobby” [VA-3] – 6/28/2007
Rep Sensenbrenner, F. James, Jr. [WI-5] – 1/31/2007
Rep Serrano, Jose E. [NY-16] – 6/26/2007
Rep Shays, Christopher [CT-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Sherman, Brad [CA-27] – 1/30/2007
Rep Sires, Albio [NJ-13] – 1/31/2007
Rep Smith, Christopher H. [NJ-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Solis, Hilda L. [CA-32] – 1/31/2007
Rep Souder, Mark E. [IN-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep Space, Zachary T. [OH-18] – 3/12/2007
Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] – 1/31/2007
Rep Sutton, Betty [OH-13] – 3/29/2007
Rep Tauscher, Ellen O. [CA-10] – 1/31/2007
Rep Thompson, Bennie G. [MS-2] – 6/20/2007
Rep Thompson, Mike [CA-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Tierney, John F. [MA-6] – 1/31/2007
Rep Towns, Edolphus [NY-10] – 1/31/2007
Rep Udall, Mark [CO-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Udall, Tom [NM-3] – 5/14/2007
Rep Van Hollen, Chris [MD-8] – 1/31/2007
Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. [NY-12] – 2/5/2007
Rep Visclosky, Peter J. [IN-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Walberg, Timothy [MI-7] – 6/7/2007
Rep Walsh, James T. [NY-25] – 2/8/2007
Rep Walz, Timothy J. [MN-1] – 1/31/2007
Rep Wamp, Zach [TN-3] – 1/31/2007
Rep Waters, Maxine [CA-35] – 1/31/2007
Rep Watson, Diane E. [CA-33] – 1/31/2007
Rep Watt, Melvin L. [NC-12] – 6/28/2007
Rep Waxman, Henry A. [CA-30] – 1/31/2007
Rep Weiner, Anthony D. [NY-9] – 1/31/2007
Rep Weller, Jerry [IL-11] – 1/31/2007
Rep Wilson, Joe [SC-2] – 1/31/2007
Rep Wolf, Frank R. [VA-10] – 1/31/2007
Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. [CA-6] – 1/31/2007
Rep Wu, David [OR-1] – 2/8/2007
Rep Wynn, Albert Russell [MD-4] – 1/31/2007
Rep Yarmuth, John A. [KY-3] – 7/10/2007

More than one conservative in that list, including a popular pick around hereabouts for President.

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]]> By: CoyoteBlue http://online.worldmag.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/comment-page-1/#comment-225387 CoyoteBlue Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:55:31 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2007/10/12/when-christians-and-conservatives-diverge/#comment-225387 Amph, Randy, et al Let me reiterate that this is not the first time this resolution has been brought to the fore in the House. There have also been Senate resolutions. As for Darfur, North Korea, China and Sudan both chambers have expressed views and in the case of the later four both chambers have appropriated funds directly aimed at human rights violations and directly aimed at improving the situation. Both Darfur and North Korea have special envoys also working on just the situations mentioned. The fact that you are only noticing this because the right wing bloggers have erupted into a how dare the (democratic) House challenge the Administration only means that they have not been paying attention. To Tony's questions, first I would ask why recognition of a genocide is not a conservative position. Last Congress the following Senators (among others) co-sponsored the measure: Sen Allard, Wayne [CO] - 2/8/2006 Sen Allen, George [VA] - 12/12/2005 Sen Brownback, Sam [KS] - 5/8/2006 Sen Coleman, Norm [MN] - 12/15/2005 Sen Dole, Elizabeth [NC] - 1/30/2006 Sen Santorum, Rick [PA] - 2/14/2006 Sen Sununu, John E. [NH] - 12/13/2005 Correct me if I am wrong but Allen, Brownback and Santorum aren't exactly moderates. Where was conservative outrage then? I take issue with the notion that the resolution is in conflict with conservativism. It does present geopolitical issues, but that is a different argument. No you all have confused a position taken for important geopolitical reasons by the Bush White House with "the" conservative position. I guess it is true that conservativism has lost its way. Now, is there a Christian position on recognizing a truth for what it is? Amph, Randy, et al

Let me reiterate that this is not the first time this resolution has been brought to the fore in the House. There have also been Senate resolutions. As for Darfur, North Korea, China and Sudan both chambers have expressed views and in the case of the later four both chambers have appropriated funds directly aimed at human rights violations and directly aimed at improving the situation. Both Darfur and North Korea have special envoys also working on just the situations mentioned. The fact that you are only noticing this because the right wing bloggers have erupted into a how dare the (democratic) House challenge the Administration only means that they have not been paying attention.

To Tony’s questions, first I would ask why recognition of a genocide is not a conservative position. Last Congress the following Senators (among others) co-sponsored the measure:

Sen Allard, Wayne [CO] – 2/8/2006
Sen Allen, George [VA] – 12/12/2005
Sen Brownback, Sam [KS] – 5/8/2006
Sen Coleman, Norm [MN] – 12/15/2005
Sen Dole, Elizabeth [NC] – 1/30/2006
Sen Santorum, Rick [PA] – 2/14/2006
Sen Sununu, John E. [NH] – 12/13/2005

Correct me if I am wrong but Allen, Brownback and Santorum aren’t exactly moderates. Where was conservative outrage then?

I take issue with the notion that the resolution is in conflict with conservativism. It does present geopolitical issues, but that is a different argument. No you all have confused a position taken for important geopolitical reasons by the Bush White House with “the” conservative position. I guess it is true that conservativism has lost its way.

Now, is there a Christian position on recognizing a truth for what it is?

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