back to top124 Comments to “Whirled Views 10.12”

1. BY Kyle A 10.12.07 AT 8:30 AM

   “The Usual Suspects”

   Well, Al Gore can really strut now. He joins the ranks of Woodrow Wilson, Nelson Mandela, and Mother Teresa as a Nobel Peace Prize winner. Next year they’ll give one to Michael Moore.

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2. BY Amphipolis 10.12.07 AT 8:45 AM

   I wish you had a list of all of the current active threads by name so they can be easily picked like in your expanded most active list. It is difficult to find a post such as Dems vs GOP – Wide Gap in Media Views. I wanted to check comments, but it was hard to find scrolling thru previous posts, and it is not on the most recent lists.

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3. BY Random Name 10.12.07 AT 8:52 AM

   Agree with #2

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4. BY Make it Man 10.12.07 AT 8:54 AM

   Amp,

   I’m not enthused about the new format in general. As you say, it’s too difficult to find threads you want to read because it’s so broken up, and all over the place. Even though the old method was little to my liking, at least it was usable. I think participation is down, and I credit it to this confusing and disjointed format. Maybe a primer on how to navigate is in order…

   The forum software is also too spartan. It’s too much “do it yourself” and even the preview is gone. Most forum software that I’ve used in the past has had not only a preview screen but quite a few other tools such as smiley buttons, text option buttons (italics, bold, underline -as well as text size, style and color), not to mention spell check and PREVIEW. And did I mention that the preview option is gone?

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5. BY Anlir 10.12.07 AT 9:15 AM

   “Shadowlands”?

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6. BY musing 10.12.07 AT 9:17 AM

   amphipolis psot 2,

   try looking in the archives section. I am finding it is a reasonable match to the old presentation format.

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7. BY Lynn Vincent 10.12.07 AT 9:21 AM

   Amphip and Random: I’ll ask the Web Diva if there’s any way we can make that happen using current real estate.

   

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8. BY Lynn Vincent 10.12.07 AT 9:22 AM

   Kyle A. wins! The Usual Suspects is correct. How will you spend your $10,000 digital dollars?

   $$$$

   

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9. BY Kyle A 10.12.07 AT 9:45 AM

   Let’s see. In honor of Al Gore I will buy carbon offset credits. Not.

   I think I’ll go on a tour of Israel. I’ve always wanted to do that. There should be enough money to stop off in Egypt and Greece, too.

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10. BY Night Train 10.12.07 AT 9:46 AM

    I posed this question late last night but got no responses, so I’ll post it again:

    Congress is getting ready to, for the first time, officially recognize the Armenian holocaust at the hand of the Turks years ago.

    But there’s opposition. Guess who’s urging them to not recognize the Armenian genocide? President Bush, that’s who. He’s afraid it will harm our relations with Turkey.

    I see lots of conservatives on here and elsewhere calling the head of Iran a madman because he denies the Jewish holocaust. Do you think any of them will start calling Bush a madman for denying the Armenian holocaust?

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11. BY kBells 10.12.07 AT 9:51 AM

    There is a difference between denying and not officially recognizing. Most of the involved are dead now, why drag up old mess. Why do we always feel it is necessary to make people feel guilty for the sins of their ancestors?

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12. BY Anlir 10.12.07 AT 10:01 AM

    I was obviously disappointed, but not surprised by Bush and Rice wanting America to ignore the Turkish genocide.

    After all, when you’re paying someone to be your friend (as America is doing to Turkey) the first things to go out the window are truth and moral clarity.

    And then we wonder why America has such a low standing around the world.

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13. BY Kyle A 10.12.07 AT 10:04 AM

    Night Train, I responded to you this morning in yesterday’s post.

    The Congress is almost 100 year late in recognizing the Armenian holocaust. I find it disgusting that Democrats are using it in 2007 to foster their political agenda. I personally disagree with the President on this matter, but he’s not a madman.

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14. BY Kyle A 10.12.07 AT 10:07 AM

    KBells, there is some validity to your post, but I have a different perspective. I think the reason for recognizing the genocide against Armenians is to make acknowledge their pain as a people. That pain is very much alive in the generations that survive today.

    Anlir, you are correct in your assessment, but this kind of politicking is not unique to one party.

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15. BY adios 10.12.07 AT 10:09 AM

    The U.S. should pass this resolution and call the Armenian halocuast what it was–genocide. It is important to the ancestors of the dead and it is important to the ancestors of the perpetrators. These issues are always complex and twisted, but there is plenty of evidence that it was genocide. Not the least of which was a Turkish diplomat who said it was not a genocide, “But if it was, this is why. . .”

    History is important. How much less would we be as a nation if we simply justified slavery or the diplorable treatment of Native Americans. The truth should be told and politics be danged.

    “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”

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16. BY momoffour 10.12.07 AT 10:20 AM

    My husband and I just hit the 10 year mark in our marriage yesterday, praise the Lord! When I really think about how He has blessed us, it amazes me. Three children who are already living for the Lord, one who is just learning about salvation, and one waiting in heaven for us, and a ministry we can both be involved in.

    Here’s my silly question–I made reservations for us for dinner tonight. We’re trying something a little more fancy than the few rare dates we’ve been on in the past. When I made the reservations, the man I spoke with referred to it as “white tablecloth dining.” What does that mean? I just don’t want to embarass my husband.

    Also, are there ANY good movies premiering tonight?
    Blessings!

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17. BY Night Train 10.12.07 AT 10:23 AM

    There is a difference between denying and not officially recognizing. Most of the involved are dead now, why drag up old mess. Why do we always feel it is necessary to make people feel guilty for the sins of their ancestors?

    Most of those involved in the Jewish holocaust are dead now, too. And yet we hear about that constantly, and I don’t think you’ve ever called for it to stop, or said we need to quit making Germany feel guilty. So what’s the difference?

    And there may be a difference between not recognizing, and denying. But that’s not what we’re talking about. Bush is denying the Armenian holocaust, and pleading with Congress to do the same by keeping silent.

    If the Iranian legillature was about to affirm their belief in the Jewish holocaust, and their president urged them not to, you’d have no problem with that?

    And Kyle A, why is one man a madman for denying a holocaust, but the other one isn’t?

    And how are the Dems “playing politics” by correcting a long standing injustice?

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18. BY musing 10.12.07 AT 10:50 AM

    kebells post 11,

    of course most people from the holocaust are dead now.

    Why keep bringing it up.

    Come to think of it most people who were victims of any genocide are dead now …

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19. BY michelle 10.12.07 AT 10:52 AM

    I agree with Kyle–while the truth is important, in this instance it feels like a political ploy, rather than an ethical statement. I mean, why stop with the Armenians? Why not clear the plate and label all the genocides: Rwanda, Ukraine, Pol Pot’s Cambodian regime and all the others which went on during the last century. Then we would be over and done with it and could carry on in our holier-than-thou tradition.

    You can check out further information at http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/

    A friend of mine at Manhattanville College has been teaching a course on genocide this quarter, and I went through her syllabus this summer, suggesting additional books–we were quite surprised at how much I know about this subject.

    It also bothers me that only the US seems interested in correcting the historical record. The Holocaust Museum, for example, is important, but why is it in Washington, D.C.? Why not in Berlin where it belongs? Or even Tehran where it could do some good? Why does it seem like our nation–with it’s possible Christian roots (see Jon Rowe)–is the only one willing to state what really happened?

    Or could that be a result of our freedom of speech?

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20. BY Anlir 10.12.07 AT 11:05 AM

    Momoffour,

    “White table-cloth dining” means it’s more up-scale than your average restaurant. Did you ask them their price range? There’s nothing wrong with asking a restaurant for their price range (usually expressed in $, $$, $$$ in the newspaper) or what their average menu price is. That way you aren’t shocked when you open the menu.

    Congrats on 10 years together!

    *****

    Today is Friday – yeah!

    I have a birthday party to attend, which is outdoors at a restaurant. The high today is supposed to be 70, with a low of 44. It might be a little cool to dine outside tonight.

    That means tomorrow is college football Saturday. Big match-up include:

    Tennessee @ MS State – PPV only @ 2:30 (Go Vols!)
    Illinois @ Iowa – ESPN2 @ noon (how about IL?!)
    S. Carolina @ N. Carolina – ABC @ 3:30
    LSU @ Kentucky – CBS @ 3:30 (could be good!)
    Wisconsin @ Penn State – ESPN @ 3:30
    Boston College @ Notre Dame – NBC @ 3:30
    Georgia @ Vandy – ESPN2 @ 6:00
    Missouri @ Oklahoma – FSN @ 6:30
    Auburn @ Arkansas – ESPN @ 7:45
    Washington @ AZ State – FSN @ 10:15 p.m.

    Forget about raking those leaves…

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21. BY mumsee 10.12.07 AT 11:24 AM

    One of the kids said her PE teacher wants them to walk. So she wanted to. I suggested she take a dog and walk to the mailbox (a mile away). She left with one brown dog on a leash and three others of varying colors following. She returned with a black dog on the leash and four dogs follwing. She said she found it loose and it followed her home. We told her if she attaches a leash to a dog she cannot claim it followed her. Hubbie is returning the dog to the neighbors this morning.

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22. BY KevinB 10.12.07 AT 12:14 PM

    Night Train, I still think there’s a big difference. Your original post said:
    I see lots of conservatives on here and elsewhere calling the head of Iran a madman because he denies the Jewish holocaust. Do you think any of them will start calling Bush a madman for denying the Armenian holocaust?

    The difference is that the head of Iran has publicly said that the Jewish holocaust didn’t happen. Bush is doing no such thing with the Armenian holocaust. Asking Congress to not make an issue of it is very different from claiming it didn’t happen.

    I’m not trying to defend Bush, I just think it’s more helpful in discussing issues if we don’t try to equate things that aren’t equal.

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23. BY krm 10.12.07 AT 1:07 PM

    Night Train – The last vestiges of the Ottoman Empire killed the Armeians. THe current government of Turkey wasn’t around then.

    The current government, which is one of the few Muslim governments that is secular and relatively cordial, if not friendly, with the West would be offended by us pushing this now.

    Do the Donks really see a need to crap on one of our only (semi)friends there? Were not the Donks the ones who were supposed to “repair” our international relationships that they were so concerned about – instead of geting even more people mad at us?

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24. BY Kyle A 10.12.07 AT 1:16 PM

    Night Train, I never said Ahmadenijad was a madman. I can’t answer for what others have said. It’s not like we are all following the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy handbook and saying all the same buzzwords.

    If Iran’s president is a madman, it’s not just because he denies the Nazi Holocaust. I think more knowledgeable people could list other reasons, such as denying that homosexual people exist in Iran. Or how about threatening to destroy Israel?

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25. BY Cameron 10.12.07 AT 1:27 PM

    Off topic a little, but is the Most Active list in the upper left-hand box really working? I find it hard to believe those are actually the most read/commented threads…

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26. BY TRS 10.12.07 AT 1:32 PM

    Yesterday, when I went to pick up my daughter from her homeschool science class (Marine Biology) at the local university (she’s 7), the teachers had given all the kids goldfish. So, I had sent her off to learn some science, and she came home with pets!

    Naturally, I couldn’t say “no” to the little face pleading with me to let her keep her “cute” fish. (They’re just plain orange feeder goldfish, but she thinks they’re cute!)

    So, out we went to the pet store, where I dropped a ton of money on a small “mermaid” aquarium for the fish (which came with all the necessary accoutrement’s, including PINK gravel! What more could a little girl ask for??)

    Now, the fish are breathing a big sigh of relief, because they won’t be some reptile’s/bigger fish’s dinner, nor be flushed, nor go to the dissection lab at the college!

    They still seem happy today. My big fear was that — since they were subjected to a few experiments by elementary science students yesterday — the stress would have caused premature death, and premature heartache for a seven year old who is very proud of HER fish (we have pets, but these are the first that are hers alone.)

    Still, the local college offers these homeschool classes as an outreach, and college students teach them to earn a little money and to share their passions. As we were leaving, one of them said to the other, “Do you think we should have warned parents about this first and gotten their permission to let the kids have fish?”

    Ya think??? LOL

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27. BY kBells 10.12.07 AT 1:32 PM

    Musing, I said “those involved”. That could mean survivors as well those who committed the crime. Also I made the mistake of thinking this happened around WWII, I guess because the holocaust was mentioned. Of course if it happened a hundreds years ago everyone is dead. I’m just saying we need more forgive and forget instead of constantly dragging stuff that happened before we were born.

    I have ancestors who may have committed atrocities and I have ancestors who probably had atrocities against them, but there’s not I lot I can do to change the past. At the end of the day I feel more guilty about yelling at my kid than I do about slavery and I’m more annoyed about the price of gas than I am about the Trail of Tears.

    “Most of those involved in the Jewish holocaust are dead now, too. And yet we hear about that constantly, and I don’t think you’ve ever called for it to stop, or said we need to quit making Germany feel guilty. So what’s the difference?”

    Okay let me call for us to stop making those Germans who were not born or who were just childern feel guilty.

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28. BY kBells 10.12.07 AT 1:43 PM

    Actually, since some of my ancestors committed atrocities against other of my ancestors can I call it even and get on with my life.

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29. BY Anlir 10.12.07 AT 2:24 PM

    I guess the conservative position is “What’s a little holocaust/genocide every now and then? It’s not like it’s a big deal or anything. It’s gonna happen and there’s nothing we can do about it. So let’s just move on and forget about it”.

    One more reason why I’m glad I’m a liberal.

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30. BY mumsee 10.12.07 AT 3:29 PM

    TRS,

    One of our kids arrived with a turtle and a little tiny tank. Hubbie spent yesterday afternoon with youngest building a table on which to keep a short stock tank with a turtle in the living room. It is a conspiracy. I am not sure whose.

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31. BY Random Name 10.12.07 AT 4:00 PM

    In regard to Turkey-Armenia (and similar topics):

    I call myself a “radical agnostic” at worldmagblog. In part it’s a joke, but to a considerable extent, I am quite serious.

    Three of my beliefs in this regard are:

    1) Truth is very difficult to discern.

    2) We should try to discern it.

    3) As best we can we should try to speak the truth and learn from it.

    In regard to crimes against humanity, such as genocide, I think the following:

    1) We should acknowledge events that have happened in the past, as accurately as we can.

    2) We should try to prevent such things happening in the present.

    I am not very interested in or motivated by accidental groupings to which I belong. My ancestors were Jews from Eastern Europe. As I am not a religious believer, and I don’t think an ethnic identity is meaningful in terms of intelligence or moral qualities and so on, I don’t find that especially fascinating.

    My uncle (still alive) won a Pulitzer Prize for composition. My cousin (no longer alive) learned Chinese and became a millionaire and had a library in Taiwan named after her. This is mildly interesting to me, but it does not make me special. I don’t know of any of my relatives or ancestors being mass murderers or some other such horrible people. If they were, I should acknowledge it; I should avoid emulating such behavior; I shouldn’t brood about it or feel guilty about it.

    Americans should acknowledge the crimes we committed against Africans we brought in as slaves and the crimes we committed against the aboriginal natives we called “Indians.” To a considerable extent we do; that’s to our credit.

    To a considerable extent, the Germans have acknowledged what happened with the Holocaust. I don’t know exactly how to measure this out, but I think it is good that they have done so to the extent that they have.

    I think it would be better if the Turks would engage in more honesty about their history with the Armenians. I think it would be better if the Japanese would engage in more honesty in regard to their history with the Chinese (rape of Nanking) and their history with the Koreans (comfort women). They have not the slightest interest in my opinions on this matter, I am sure.

    I find it disgraceful that very similar events are taking place right now before our eyes and ears in Sudan, and we are no more able to deal with such mass crimes now than we (human beings in general) in all the earlier horrors we lament.

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32. BY Victoria 10.12.07 AT 4:04 PM

    Mumsee – 21

    That’s one cute story – Every kid wants their own dog -

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33. BY Anlir 10.12.07 AT 4:06 PM

    Sorry to be such a grouch today on here and the other blogs!

    Normally, I reserve Fridays for happy things around here. It’s the end of the work week and I have two days away from the rat-race of work. Yeah!

    I think fall is just around the corner. Last night it got cool and I had to turn on the heat. Today is absolutely gorgeous – low 70’s, low humidity. Friday’s are casual at work and I normally wear shorts. Today I wore jeans. It’s the first time I’ve had them on since last spring. I usually wear shorts until Thanksgiving if I can hold out that long.

    I have two really cool looking flannel shirts that my boss bought me at Bass Pro Shop, just because. I have a good boss. I’m looking forward to wearing them.

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34. BY VS 10.12.07 AT 4:11 PM

    Anlir, I confess I was going to “scold” you for # 29 and express my disappointment that you made such a remark! But after reading # 33, I’ll give you a pass.

    Speaking of flannel shirts, I personally have an aversion to the plaid patterns – solids are ok.

    We went from 80’s and muggy at beginning of week to low 50’s and misty rain here at the end.

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35. BY deb 10.12.07 AT 4:19 PM

    Anlir, do liberals wear flannel? Wow, you learn something everyday! Maybe the game tomorrow will cheer you up. Go VOlS!!

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36. BY Karen O 10.12.07 AT 4:22 PM

    VS – My husband tends to like plaids & stripes in his (non-flannel) shirts.

    But the ones he chooses are not too vivid, so I like them well enough.

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37. BY Anlir 10.12.07 AT 4:39 PM

    Yes, I am a liberal and I wear flannel shirts

    Worse, I wear the good old fashioned plaid ones! I have a preference for blue and green. Sadly, my green one had to be put out to pasture because it was completely frayed in the collar and the elbows were worn through. I shall miss that shirt!

    Believe it or not, I have the flannel shirt that my grandpa wore as a teenager. I’d estimate it’s around 70 years old and still in pretty good shape. I wear it only on very special occasions. The rest of the time it stays in a dry cleaner’s bag hung in the back of my closet.

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38. BY krm 10.12.07 AT 6:03 PM

    Anlir – The conservative position here is more accurately stated as “why are we @#$%ing around over a disaster 100 years in the past, in a way that will handicap in dealing with a present and future disaster by alienating the successor government to the one 100 years ago – all the while ignoring other current similar disasters (e.g. Darfur, Burma, Tibet, Sri Lanka, etc., etc.)?”

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39. BY Hamachi 10.12.07 AT 7:16 PM

    Hot off the press:

    Mom charged with buying guns for son
    Home-schooled boy is suspected of plotting attack on Pa. high school

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21253029/

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40. BY mumsee 10.12.07 AT 7:27 PM

    Hamachi,

    Hot off the press:

    Homeschooled boy heads to China for continuing work on Olympic venues.

    Homeschooled boy continues navigator training at Pensacola NAS.

    Homeschooled girl continues work as RN in ICU at prominent Boise hospital.

    Homescooled boy continues security training at Lackland AB as public school boys steal his computer and credit card.

    What is your point in adding the homeschool part?

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41. BY mumsee 10.12.07 AT 7:33 PM

    Hamachi,

    Understand that I am a little miffed right now with social services closed mindedness on homeschool as we sit and watch our fourteen year old spend hours and hours each day doing absolutely nothing but doodling on paper in his public school classes. Seems like we could find a better use of his time while teaching him to be a little more productive and still finding time to learn what is needed in academics.

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42. BY Pauline 10.12.07 AT 7:48 PM

    TRS,
    Several years ago my son (6 years old) came home from some school function with a goldfish. I didn’t expect it to live long, but I didn’t feel I could tell him we’d just let it die or flush it down the toilet, so I bought the most inexpensive fishbowl I could find at the pet store, and some food. I tried to follow the directions, but the fish died in a couple days.

    My son was naturally disappointed, so I offered to buy another fish, and on someone’s advice got a tetra. That one lasted a week. I think I was more upset than he was when it died. I hate feeling responsible for the death of any living thing.

    Anyway, I told my son no more fish until we moved (which we were planning to do shortly), and were able to get a better tank like Grandma’s, with the air pump or whatever it is that makes all the bubbles, and something to keep it clean, etc. But we never did end up getting it, and he’s never asked about it. When he did want a replacement pet it was after we had to put our dog down (she started biting) and he wanted another dog. (Though now that it’s his job to feed and water the dog and clean up after him, he’s not so thrilled.)

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43. BY Victoria 10.12.07 AT 8:04 PM

    Mumsee

    I respect the way in which you have taken so much responsibility for children who have no home, and your sincere desire to help them. However there are different sides to the story regarding ‘home-schooling’ verses public school –

    There are children who have benefited from home-schooling, and there are many who have not – the whole program isn’t a success story -

    Here is a list of problems which I see and have observed first hand -

    1. Many home-schooled (HS) don’t learn to assimilate and get along with other kids their VERY OWN AGE, instead they spend endless hours with their mom and siblings – The lack of social interaction OUTSIDE the family begins to show – by ’show’ I mean they are used to lots of individual attention from an adult, rather than having to ’share’ the ‘teacher’ with 25 or more other kids –

    2. Many HS kids are MORE than OUTSPOKEN on just about any subject, whether they know what they are talking about or NOT. It probably comes down to the fact that they are used to speaking up whenever they want, because there is little competition, in some instances its just them, a sibling and mom – They get VERY USED to talking to adults as though THEY THEMSELVES were one, instead of realizing they are kids, and they need to learn to wait their turn –

    3. I have witnessed some very bright kids who have lagged behind in subjects such as math, when there was no reason for it – and the mom was a College Grad –

    There are kids who go to school every day who have made up their mind that they are not going to apply themselves, they don’t like school, they don’t listen or pay attention, and that then becomes the TEACHERS FAULT – Parents need to spend time each evening helping their child with homework – having a job during the day doesn’t relieve that responsibility from the parent, whether they are single parents or married –

    One of my dearest friends is a Special Education teacher, she is wonderful with kids – she is very aware of how parents don’t participate in their children’s education – My friend has three kids of her own, and they certainly are made to do their homework, help with chores, etc.

    I know that there are many so called ‘labels’ for all sorts of learning disorders, but ’some’ of this is an excuse, not all, but SOME -

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44. BY mumsee 10.12.07 AT 8:24 PM

    Victoria,

    I agree that that does happen and I am certain we all can see how there are dedicated public school kids as well as the other kind. Our concern with our 14 year old is that, though we are very involved, in daily email contact with his teachers and seeing that he does his homework and correctly at home, we have some difficulties. 1) he lies about everything and as a lifelong habit it will be difficult to break. So he of course lies about his homework, conveniently forgetting books and assignments on a daily basis. We have been given every available extra school book the school has as both the school and we want him to succeed. 2) he has no math foundation. He is supposed to be in algebra (must keep with the peers, you know!) but has difficulty adding 37 plus 12 or whatever. 3) Somebody somewhere taught him to read well but his attention span is so out of training he has a hard time focusing beyond a couple of minutes. This, too, will take time.

    We welcome all suggestions and advice from any of you wise people on how we can help the boy.

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45. BY Hamachi 10.12.07 AT 8:25 PM

    I’m sorry you’re miffed, Mumsee. The homeschool situation is part of the situation surrounding this misguided kid. Some kids do well in public schools, some do not. Some homeschooled kids do well, some do not. Simple as that.

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46. BY Hamachi 10.12.07 AT 8:33 PM

    Mumsee, the boy has been dealt a huge set back in his development by coming from the meth home. It is unfortunate. He is going to have to start from where he is, and that is a challenge he would probably rather not face. Since, as I understand it, he is only in your care temporarily, all you can do is try to be patient and help him develop the basic skills he will base his future skills on. I’m not a teacher. I would never homeschool my kids for many reasons for the sake of their social and academic development. I do, however, take time to work with my kids daily to make sure they are keeping up with their assignments, and to see that they understand the material. That you are in daily contact with the teacher is great. It won’t be solved overnight, but with patience and regular encouragement I’m sure you will make a difference. Perhaps a tutor is an option? Good luck.

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47. BY mumsee 10.12.07 AT 8:47 PM

    Hamachi,

    No, we are adopting him and his sibs. The difficulty is getting beyond his defiance disorders. For example, he finishes his homework at home with close dad supervision and then neglects to turn it in. He does not realize he has met with a deep reservoir of patience, but at the same time, he only has about four more years until he is considered an adult. We are working with all of them on basic math concepts in the hope of making up lost ground. It is sad to see him having no problem developing formulas and understanding the concepts but getting frustrated that the basics are not there. We suspect that is why he won’t ask for help at school, he is embarassed.

    We do see how intense homeschooling, with a parent hanging over his shoulder, could help to get him back on track. We have seen it happen time after time with foster kids in the past. So we are optimistic. I was just hoping for clues from others who might have dealt with similar stubbornness or anybody that has an idea. The kid is fantastic and we would love to see him reach his potential but would be satisfied with seeing him close as few doors as possible before going through.

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48. BY Victoria 10.12.07 AT 8:52 PM

    Mumsee

    My heart goes out to you, I know from reading many of your posts that you care deeply about kids – I am praying for this situation, I know God loves you and your husband and these kids – God knows the situation you are in, and He loves you Mumsee –

    The part you have shared about the ‘lying’ that’s a red flag – Kids who do this could have been involved with drugs, and that would include ‘Meth’ it can also occur with those who have been molested, this is a symptom which you might all ready know about, or maybe it just hasn’t come to light yet –

    The fact that he can read well is a big PLUS – The fact that he is unable to do simple math most likely ‘overwhelms’ this boy, that’s a tough one – As I mentioned earlier, if he has done drugs and especially ‘Meth’ concentration isn’t what it could be –

    You sure have my undivided attention tonight!

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49. BY mumsee 10.12.07 AT 9:10 PM

    Victoria,

    All of the kids tested positive for meth when removed from the home. The mom said she stayed away from alcohol and drugs during each pregnancy but it is doubtful. They all show signs of damage. We appreciate all prayers. And I always try to remember that God loves these kids even more than we do. Being in five different homes has not helped I am sure.

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50. BY Hamachi 10.12.07 AT 9:15 PM

    I confused your situation with Cheryl’s. I apologize for misunderstanding. If they are in your care from now on, I think you have a much better chance of bringing him around simply by remaining consistent and supportive. They are coming from a place where nobody took an interest in their schoolwork, and it will take time for them to adjust. It sounds like you are already doing much more than anyone has ever done for them, and by showing them their work is important to you, it may help them see it as important too. Is there a special education (I know that sounds bad) or tutoring center at the school that might be a useful resource?

    I can see how being behind would be embarrassing for a teen, and how that would perpetuate him falling still further behind because of his fear of clarifying questions in front of the class. Is the teacher trying to help? Is she aware that he is afraid to ask questions? You might ask if she would give him 15 minutes after school each day to clarify things, or perhaps you could hire her as a tutor to work with him privately and one-on-one at regular times? This is kind of like a tutor, but it might be even better since she is his teacher and they already have something of a relationship, hopefully positive. I understand how frustrating it must be to work through the homework with him only to have him not turn it in. That sounds like something a younger child would do, or one that is not used to doing homework, I suppose.

    Sorry I can’t be of more help.

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51. BY Hamachi 10.12.07 AT 9:28 PM

    I’m reading the news on the google news page. It appears the contractors are a bit out of hand. We all heard about the unarmed civilians that Blackwater shot down a couple weeks ago. Last week there was a carload of Christians who received 40+ rounds, killing two of them. Now it comes out that the mercenaries (security forces) have even held our soldiers at gunpoint. This is ridiculous. We’ve privatized the army, and these private mercenaries are not being held accountable.

    Newsweek

    Oct. 15, 2007 issue – The colonel was furious. “Can you believe it? They actually drew their weapons on U.S. soldiers.” He was describing a 2006 car accident, in which an SUV full of Blackwater operatives had crashed into a U.S. Army Humvee on a street in Baghdad’s Green Zone. The colonel, who was involved in a follow-up investigation and spoke on the condition he not be named, said the Blackwater guards disarmed the U.S. Army soldiers and made them lie on the ground at gunpoint until they could disentangle the SUV. His account was confirmed by the head of another private security company. Asked to address this and other allegations in this story, Blackwater spokesperson Anne Tyrrell said, “This type of gossip has led to many soap operas in the press.”

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21163806/site/newsweek/

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52. BY TRS 10.12.07 AT 9:32 PM

    Victoria and Hamachi,

    The two of you sure do have the standard stereotypes about homeschoolers. Of all the homeschoolers I know, NONE Of them are like you described, and I know A LOT. (I do know two that would likely scratch your stereotype to some degree, but I know dozens and dozens who don’t even come close.)

    Do you really think that homeschool kids stay in the house all day locked in the bedroom?

    My kids attend homeschool science classes at the local university (so they know how to raise their hand and share the teacher.) My oldest and middle child attend a literature class for homeschooled students. My boys are Boy Scouts. My daughter is an American Heritage Girl. My middle son plays soccer, basketball, and baseball in season. My daughter plays soccer and baseball in season. My daughter takes dance.

    In addition, they get a FAR better education than they’d ever get in the public school system (I taught there and I know.) In fact, they get a better education than they would in the local private schools (I taught in one of the best of those too.)

    Homeschool kids regularly start taking classes at the Jr. College before graduation. They meet for field trips. They attend social functions.

    Interestingly, they are able to relate to people of ALL ages, rather than just with peer mates of their own age. They are respectful of adults, play well with each other (even though they are four years apart) and include other children in their activities of widely varying ages since they don’t put much store by “grade level.”

    You both need to get out and meet some homeschooled students, rather than spouting out your preconceived stereotypes based on one or two you’ve met (or, possibly, none at all.) Like any group of people, you could probably find a few strange ones, but the vast majority are doing just fine, thank you. (And their test scores and college records prove that over and over.)

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53. BY TRS 10.12.07 AT 9:34 PM

    Oh, and both my oldest kids are in at least one semi-professionally done homeschool play each year which is performed twice with 19 other homeschooled students and in front of an audience of hundreds each performance.

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54. BY Karen O 10.12.07 AT 9:47 PM

    Hamachi – From what I read, the boy was only being homeschooled for the past year or so. I would say his problems didn’t just pop up in that short time.

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55. BY Pauline 10.12.07 AT 10:03 PM

    TRS,
    I remember being very surprised to learn a co-workers opinion of homeschooling, because what I had always heard was what you have described. But then, the only people I had ever heard anything about homeschooling from were in evangelical churches, where it was accepted without question as the best way to go. I had no experience with any homeschooled children myself.

    My co-worker was a Den mother with Cub Scouts, had been doing it for some eight years I think, and had spent a lot of time with a lot of children. She said that of course there were good and bad among both homeschooled and public-schooled children, but on the whole she had developed a negative opinion of homeschooling based on her experience with homeschooled boys in her den. They often had poor social skills, and sometimes poor academic skills as well, because the mother doing the teaching didn’t have a very good education herself. We did live in a fairly rural area, where the kind opportunities you take advantage of were simply not available.

    I think homeschooling can be absolutely wonderful, when done well as you are doing, and as many parents do. On average, I would expect homeschoolers to do somewhat better simply from having had individualized attention from a motivated teacher.

    But I can only try to imagine what an absolute disaster it would have been if my mother had felt obligated to homeschool. Having a bad teacher one year is something you can recover from. But having a bad teacher for 12 years? And unfortunately as the homeschool movement expands there are going to be more parents who are not good teachers but who homeschool because they have been taught that they should because the public schools are so horrible.

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56. BY Pauline 10.12.07 AT 10:09 PM

    I see my previous comment to mumsee did not post. Maybe it’s hiding out in blog limbo somewhere, to pop up later, but as I did get an error message when I tried to submit it, I’ll try again.

    mumsee,
    This is just a small idea, but do you have a computer that he can play “edutainment” games on? There are a lot of fun computer games that teach/review school subjects including math at various levels. Most of them are aimed at younger children, but in my experience older children will often still enjoy games written for younger children, at least on occasion. There are games that are modeled after arcade games, but instead of simply trying to shoot targets, you have to shoot the right answer to the math problem, or something like that. I don’t know how well they do at teaching new concepts, but they can be good for practicing basic skills, and a lot more fun than something like flash cards.

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57. BY Hamachi 10.12.07 AT 10:12 PM

    He is obviously a very troubled kid, KarenO. I’m sure he would be in trouble either way with a mom like that. And I’m glad your kids are so well adjusted, TRS. Good job parenting! I only know half a dozen homeschooled kids, two being my best man’s children whom we have known since birth. They’re nice enough kids, but a bit off in their social skills as they relate to other children. I’m sure they are the exception to the rule and would be weird wherever they were schooled. Like the homeschooled kid plotting to shoot up the school in PA. It probably has nothing to do with his living situation.

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58. BY Victoria 10.12.07 AT 10:12 PM

    TRS

    I can see you are very proud of your children, and you should be, however that doesn’t mean that it works each time.

    When you write snide comments to Hamachi and me, such as:……

    “Do you really think that homeschool kids stay in the house all day locked in the bedroom?”

    That comment is nonsense – No one said that, so you leave the idea of ‘putting words in others mouths’ somewhere outside the door –

    Next TRS, what I wrote is not a ’stereotype’ it’s first hand knowledge, observing those whom I know who home-school -

    As far as the Junior College comment …….

    “Homeschool kids regularly start taking classes at the Jr. College before graduation.”

    I know that many go to the local Junior College, and the reason they do at age 17, they cannot take remedial courses to get into a 4 year University, they need to take classes in math, etc., because they can’t make the requirements for a 4 year school – I’m very aware from those I know and observe as to the whole Junior College thing when it finally comes out that the grades don’t measure up –

    I think its great that your kids are in all sorts of activities and clubs – I used to agree with you about home-schooling, but as of this past summer and the kids I know, and the education they ‘could have had’ but didn’t because they stayed home with mom, has changed my mind –

    You write:………..

    “My boys are Boy Scouts. My daughter is an American Heritage Girl. My middle son plays soccer, basketball, and baseball in season. My daughter plays soccer and baseball in season. My daughter takes dance.”

    All these activities are great, but they aren’t the education that kids need to make the cut for University – That’s not school that’s sports that many kids can be involved in OUTSIDE public school or home-schooling -

    The area in which I live has one of the highest rated school systems in the country – There is no reason to home-school kids who live here – I can understand some people finding it necessary to home-school because of the area they live in, but I believe that home-schooling is VERY ‘over-rated’ and doesn’t give a child the interaction academically, which is needed to compete within a school, either public or private –

    Your last paragraph isn’t correct, you have no idea how many people I know who home-school -

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59. BY Victoria 10.12.07 AT 10:36 PM

    TRS

    I want to add this to what I posted to you -

    I was very impressed when I heard about home-schooled kids going to Junior College in their Senior year of High School, I thought that was really an achievement – - – - – - UNTIL I learned the reason WHY they were there, and it was for remedial classes in math, etc. When I further found out that was the ONLY way they could ‘make up’ the education they had missed at home with mom, I changed my mind OVERNIGHT -

    So when I hear about all the Junior College attendees from home-schooled kids and their parents, I’m no longer impressed, it’s a need which is met through public education in Jr. College –

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60. BY Cameron 10.12.07 AT 11:15 PM

    Victoria,

    Since we’re only going by anecdotal evidence, let me chime in. I used to live in Greenville, SC, which is heavily homeschooled, although excellent public schools are available.
    I know roughly a dozen homeschoolers from our former church. Of the college-age kids, every one of them entered Clemson University on academic scholarship.

    Except one. He was admitted to the Naval Academy with honors.

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61. BY Victoria 10.12.07 AT 11:39 PM

    Cameron

    I think that’s great, but it doesn’t cut it when we are talking about top University’s – I am more than sure that you know a whole bunch of kids who have made Univ. but there are a whole bigger bunch that no one wants to think about -

    Cameron, who says that God wants everyone to go to Yale or Harvard, I sure don’t believe that – But at the same time, lets not lose sight we are talking home-schooling, and I don’t mean to say you haven’t, but we need to recognize the fact that going to Junior College while a Senior in High School being ‘home-schooled’ is not an achievement -

    Kids who are working to get into the really great schools aren’t bothering to even ‘think’ about Junior College when they are seniors in High School, they are busy working to get those grades up, that’s the ticket to the best schools, not Junior College -

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62. BY Lynn Vincent 10.12.07 AT 11:47 PM

    Cameron @ #25: I checked out what you said about the Most Active posts not looking like good candidates. You’re right — the middle three actually are in the single-digits as far as comments. I griped it to Dr. N.O. Thanks for the heads up.

    P.S.: Don’t tell anybody, but I think we’re getting comment-preview soon

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63. BY Victoria 10.12.07 AT 11:55 PM

    HORRAY for LYNN

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64. BY Victoria 10.12.07 AT 11:58 PM

    Rather:

    HOORAY for LYNN

    Sorry, didn’t check my spelling….. LOL

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65. BY VS 10.13.07 AT 8:08 AM

    Just for the record, my own experiences and observations with homeschooling most definitely falls in the same group as TRS and Cameron have described…including one who went on to West Point.

    And….you have no idea how many people I know who home-school.

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66. BY Cameron 10.13.07 AT 8:55 AM

    Victoria,
    Separate your rants, please. I never said anything about homeschoolers attending junior college. Clemson is a four-year university focusing on engineering, which I mentioned above.

    I don’t know a single homeschooler who hasn’t gotten into a four-year university without an academic scholarship–so I don’t know your “whole bigger bunch”.

    I never said God wanted everyone to go to Harvard or Yale. I think we need to increase access to technical schools and decrease the stigma of attending them.

    The only kids I knew who attended junior college/tech schools during their senior years were in public school….

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67. BY Peter L 10.13.07 AT 11:22 AM

    Victoria, TRS and Cameron-

    You are all basing your homeschooling views on anecdotal experience. TRS and Cameron point out the number of students attending jr. college, and Victoria rants about it being for remedial math and science.

    Okay, here is some more anecdotal evidence: It goes both ways! My home schooled children, and those with whom I am acquainted, are generally advanced in math and science knowledge, though lacking in lab experience in science. My son started junior college after taking the GED and ACT. He scored in the high 90s percentile in both tests in math, and started with calculus, usually getting the highest test scores in his classes. My daughter, though not as good in math, got scholarships based on her GED and ACT scores, and is in her last year of a four-year nursing program at an academically challenging university. I personally know of a family that home schooled their boys, at least for jr and sr high, and all three scored at least a 32 on the ACT (36 is highest). Several children we know started at jr college at the age of 16 for dual credit classes, not remedial.

    On the other side of the coin, in the district where I teach, there are a few parents whose children cannot make it in regular public schools who take their children out and supposedly homeschool them. These parents don’t seem to care if their children do well, or they would have done something sooner than junior or senior high. These are children who will be in remedial classes at college if they ever get that far.

    I used to be in the adult education program at a community college, getting students ready for their GED. We had some homeschooled students come through the program. For the most part, these were students who did not really need the preparation courses we offered, who came in, took the pretest, scored almost 100%, then went on and got their GEDs with high scores. Most went on to four year colleges and did well.

    So, Victoria, TRS and Cameron, argue your points all you want. You are all correct based on your experiences. It all boils down to this: If the parents care enough to be involved in their children’s education, the children will do well regardless of where the education takes place. In public schools, the students whose parents are more involved generally do better than those whose parents don’t seem to care. The same goes for homeschooling.

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68. BY mumsee 10.13.07 AT 11:29 AM

    Well said Peter L.

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69. BY deb 10.13.07 AT 11:59 AM

    I’ve “graduated” three children from homeschool. My daughter did great in Advanced Math at home, but lousy on her ACT. She ended up in remedial math in a four year university. Aced it and went on to make dean’s list 3 times. My youngest took classes at the local community college for dual enrollment. My trouble this year of homeschooling only one is the fact I am in the car too much. We attend a homeschool co-op one day at week, she takes Latin two days a week. Our church offers homeschool PE and she takes piano. Add to that youth activites on Thursday night and you have a full schedule. Oh yes, she loves to volunteer w/ Upward Soccer when we can fit in into our schedule.
    I do admit I ahve seen each child struggle at times communicating w/ peers who attend public school — usually this is during middle school age. The public school kids are watching TV shows or movies that our child has not been allowed to see. It seems that’s where communication starts w/ this age. They all managed to find common interests eventually, but it was odd how conversation would always start w/ TV.

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70. BY TRS 10.13.07 AT 1:04 PM

    Victoria,

    You really don’t know what you are talking about. The homeschool kids in Jr. College classes that I know are there from the ages of THIRTEEN to seniors in high school, and they are certainly NOT there for “remedial” work, but to challenge themselves and go beyond in areas like Calculus.

    They are also there to deal with snobs like you who seem to think they can’t handle a “real classroom.” So, to deal with that potentiality, they take a few classes at the Jr. College, get As, and then they can show the few out there who don’t understand homeschooling that they are more than capable of handling the social aspects of classroom behavior. It is simply a way of having some “outside classes” on their high school transcripts.

    As for those of you looking for “objective” evidence, again, I point you to test scores and college records. Homeschool children are consistently doing better overall in such things than either public or privately schooled children.

    Naturally, that is in general. You will always find those that don’t do well, or who aren’t testing or making the grade. But, overall, the homeschooled student still blows away the others on objective testing, and are doing well enough in college that Universities are beginning to really notice and *solicit* homeschooled children.

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71. BY TRS 10.13.07 AT 1:12 PM

    The area in which I live has one of the highest rated school systems in the country – There is no reason to home-school kids who live here

    ******People who say things like this don’t understand that your children are being taught a world view — six hours or more a day — that is not compatible with Christianity. AT BEST, your child is coming out of school “double-minded” — thinking one thing at school and out in public and another at home and on Sunday.

    If you think otherwise, it is because you have not been working or attending at the public school.

    Also, see John Stossel’s report called “Stupid in America” of a year or so ago on the state of public schools in the USA.

    Click here for the article:

    http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

    But I highly recommend that you watch the program:

    mms://sql2.slicker.com:1890/sanfordforgovernor/2020.wmv

    ALL parents seem to think that the public schools in general are not so great EXCEPT for THEIR public schools, which they always claim are wonderful. John Stossel (who was NOT advocating homeschool, btw, but a change in the system) showed that this was absolutely false. Parents consistently called poor schools “great” when they were THEIR child’s school.

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72. BY mumsee 10.13.07 AT 1:14 PM

    Apologies. It was not my intent to start another painful discussion on homeschool/public school. Merely suggesting that the best interest of the child can lie in either area or a combination or throw in private school and tutors. It just seems sad to me that this particular boy, who can not focus for long, must be placed in a classroom and left to drift. We are working on retraining his attention span. As we speak he is out in the carport working on building a table for me of his design. He brought it in a couple days ago and I loved it but he was dissatisfied with some of it so has taken it out for remedial work. Now if we can transfer that attention span to schoolwork..

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73. BY Hamachi 10.13.07 AT 1:45 PM

    Mumsee, that would seem to me a good sign. The boy is able to focus on something that interests him. Sounds as though he may have some perfectionist tendencies as well, which can be both a curse and a blessing. Now, how to get him interested in school subjects. The table construction may present a learning opportunity. Does he realize how much math he is using to build it? You could show him some basic geometry using the table, a tape measure and piece of paper to do do calculations. Just a thought.

    I agree with you about different educational settings lending themselves to different personality types.

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74. BY mumsee 10.13.07 AT 2:12 PM

    Hamachi,

    Yes, we talk to him frequently about how things he is doing are using math. He is beginning to think we are education freaks. Trying not to bore him with the details but explaining how by using math and a plan, improvements can be made. Number three son was shocked when he and husband built a storeage shed to adjoin a previously built storeage shed via a covered breezeway. They were working on the roof when son looked up in shock and amazement and commented that the two roofs were joining just as dad had said they would through mathematical calculations. It is such fun to see the light turn on.

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75. BY Karen O 10.13.07 AT 3:13 PM

    Victoria – My thought about homeschooled kids taking remedial classes at a jr. college is that it can be looked at in a positive way, not just as a negative.

    It shows that the student & the parents realize part of the education at home was lacking, & took steps to correct that.

    There are probably public schooled kids who could use this extra help, too, but their parents don’t realize it. As Peter said, involved parents will make sure their children receive a good education, whether that’s at home or in a school.

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76. BY Victoria 10.13.07 AT 3:46 PM

    TRS – 70 & 71

    We were all giving our views, based on experience – We don’t agree, that’s very plain. But when YOU begin to call me a ’snob’ because I don’t agree with you, it’s obvious that you aren’t able to express yourself without making childish comments, which flame a discussion – What point is made by calling names, what have you gained? – NOTHING!

    Many people disagree regarding home-schooling, its also a fact that it depends where people live in the US and what school district they are in, as to what decision is reached regarding children’s education.

    Public schools vary from area to area, just as they do from state to state -

    It’s been MY observation that children who are home-schooled do not receive the the social skills, as in learning to get along with others different than themselves – learning to compete within an academic environment with other kids their OWN AGE, is a learning experience which needs to be learned BEFORE going on to University –

    There are many ways to learn social skills, in sports, etc., and then hopefully kids are brought up within a Church where they are taught about the LORD Jesus, making friends, learning to get along with others – However, this is not a situation that one experiences on a DAILY BASIS, but usually only twice a week, that being Sunday School and youth clubs, etc.

    Here you quote me which is:…….

    “The area in which I live has one of the highest rated school systems in the country – There is no reason to home-school kids who live here”

    And here TRS you write:……….

    ” ******People who say things like this don’t understand that your children are being taught a world view — six hours or more a day — that is not compatible with Christianity. AT BEST, your child is coming out of school “double-minded” — thinking one thing at school and out in public and another at home and on Sunday.

    If you think otherwise, it is because you have not been working or attending at the public school.” ******

    TRS, those comments which you made are not based upon facts, and FACTS regarding the area in which I live – Children going to public school are not coming out as you say “double-minded” – you simply don’t know what you are talking about when you make that statement – We are affiliated with a very strong Church, which teaches the Word of God, it also has very active youth GROUPS which are geared to teaching children and teens, not to mention many clubs, and camping –

    Children learn from the parents, they learn the Word of God or they don’t – I agree that home-schooling is a very good idea until a child reaches 10 or so, after that they need to be around other children there own age, with a structured school – Some Christian Schools can be a good choice -

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77. BY Cameron 10.13.07 AT 6:46 PM

    It all boils down to this: If the parents care enough to be involved in their children’s education, the children will do well regardless of where the education takes place. In public schools, the students whose parents are more involved generally do better than those whose parents don’t seem to care. The same goes for homeschooling. I agree completely. Plus, we all admitted earlier we were arguing only from anecdotal experience–my #60 for instance.

    Victoria–I give up. While I’ll admit there are kids that are homeschooled that shouldn’t be (unqualified parents, etc), that some kids miss out on socialization (but that’s rapidly disappearing), and that it isn’t the right answer for every family (single mothers, for example), will you admit the converse?

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78. BY Victoria 10.13.07 AT 6:54 PM

    Cameron

    You write:

    “Victoria–I give up. While I’ll admit there are kids that are homeschooled that shouldn’t be (unqualified parents, etc), that some kids miss out on socialization (but that’s rapidly disappearing), and that it isn’t the right answer for every family (single mothers, for example), will you admit the converse?”

    Cameron would you clarify what you mean which I have bolded?

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79. BY Cameron 10.13.07 AT 7:15 PM

    Victoria,
    Will you admit the opposite of my statements are true–that some kids thrive in homeschooling, many are offered myriad ways to socialize through co-ops and other group offerings, and that it is the right answer for some families.

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80. BY Victoria 10.13.07 AT 7:36 PM

    Cameron

    I am sure some children do very well being home-schooled. HOWEVER, I don’t believe that home-schooled kids adequately learn to compete within an academic environment with other kids their OWN AGE – This is an important daily experience, which the HS kids are lacking in –

    I talked to one teen just recently who is trying to go to college – Its not easy for this student – as the remark was made by him “College is sure a lot different than home-schooling” – he wasn’t happy – his mother is a College Grad she has been a wonderful mother, HOWEVER, her son is a ‘fish out of water’ – it would have been much better if he had been allowed to go to public or private school at least for the last few years of High School – This family also participates in limited groups with other parents and their kids, all doing special education in their own fields -

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81. BY Cameron 10.13.07 AT 8:19 PM

    Victoria,

    So you won’t even admit it works sometimes.

    This is my last weigh-in with you about this. I have sat in on a co-op’s weekly English class. There were twelve students in the room, none of whom were related to each other. They were roughly ten years old and diagramming sentences plus working on vocabulary.

    I only had ten students when I taught the same age group at a private school last year. Who had better socialization opportunities?

    Co-op’s recess let several grades play together, as did the private school, by the way, increasing socialization opportunities threefold.

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82. BY Cameron 10.13.07 AT 8:20 PM

    College is also very different than any version of high school.

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83. BY Peter L 10.13.07 AT 9:00 PM

    Victoria- My sister, who used to be an officer in the state home-school organization, started homeschooling her boys back in the early 80s. Every one was concerned about socialization in those early days. She pointed out that the only time a person is stuck with a large group of people of the same age is school and the military. Most of our lives we deal with people of several age groups. Many home-schooled children I know (not all) are better at communicating with people in older generations than I was at school age.

    It is a myth that public school children are better at socialization skills. I remember being teased and taunted beyond my abilities to respond in a positive way. My young mind thought revenge was best.

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84. BY Peter L 10.13.07 AT 9:02 PM

    Oops, hit the submit button too soon.

    I would rather my children learn how to communicate a socialize with adults, in an adult manner, rather than in the uncivilized way I and my classmates “socialized”, or the way I see high school students react to each other every day in my position as a teacher.

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85. BY Victoria 10.13.07 AT 9:07 PM

    Kids should have the opportunity to go to High School, either public or private – Interaction, all the activities which are offered are wonderful for kids to participate – High School football games, proms, eating lunch together with friends, learning to be away from home 7 hours a day without mom and their siblings -

    When kids are raised to be ‘hot house plants’ they don’t really know what the real world is like – then they are thrust into University when they are 17 or 18 – Parents are very excited about their 14 year olds going to Junior College, but MANY times the kids feel strange, almost ALL the other kids are much older – Parents might be proud and tell all their friends, but the kids have a different story – How can a kid tell their mom that they really want to go to a regular high school when mom is going to come back with “I have sacrificed all these years to stay home and give you this SPECIAL OPPORTUNITY to home-school you” – that’s a real guilt trap for the kids –

    Many of the Home-school kids are from families who are Libertarian, of which I am NOT -

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86. BY Victoria 10.13.07 AT 9:39 PM

    Peter

    Kids learn to cope, teasing is part life – I was teased a lot in school, it taught me how to be patient, how to deal with others who were not able to control themselves, and those who wished they had a family like mine, and took it out on me, every chance they had – I learned how to reason with others, when they only wanted to strike out – I learned how to love others who didn’t have what I had been given –

    Some of the kids that I grew up with, who were the meanest, became my friends. If I had not had the opportunity to endure the teasing, I wouldn’t have the skills which I have today -

    We need practice when we are kids on a regular day to day basis to learn how to get along with others – A school either public or private, gives children the opportunity to learn to ‘get along’ – so, I disagree with you regarding socialization skills, if you don’t practice you won’t learn –

    You can bring up Church, siblings, and friends from sports, but school is a daily deal, it means eating lunch with other kids, not mom and your sibling – it means having to respond to other adults (teachers) whom you might not like, and they might not like you either – its all part of ones education -

    Report comment to moderator

87. BY Karen O 10.13.07 AT 9:43 PM

    Someone who used to be on here (maybe it was Pentamom?) once said something along these lines – The socialization kids learn in school is…that the cooler kids rule, how to conform to the rest of the kids to fit in, individuality is not allowed.

    Once, a homeschooled girl that went to college answered my question about adapting to college by saying that it was different at first, but she quickly adapted. Just like my public-schooled niece.

    Also, much has to do with one’s personality & temperament. Kids who are shy will be awkward in a new situation, even if they’re used to a school setting. Outgoing kids will usually adapt quickly to a new situation.

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88. BY Karen O 10.13.07 AT 9:51 PM

    Victoria’s last comment (86) wasn’t up when I started typing mine (87).

    I do see your point there, Victoria. But I wonder about the people who were homeschooled in “the old days”, & then went on to be successful adults, dealing with all kinds of situations.

    I’m thinking particularly of the times of our founding fathers, a time when schooling at home was the norm for many. Or kids that grew up on farms & rarely saw anyone other than their own family, but learned how to cooperate as part of a farming community anyway.

    These are just ponderings. I know our lives are much different today. But I don’t think kids necessarily have to be exposed to other kids each & every day to learn the important lessons of life.

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89. BY Victoria 10.13.07 AT 10:21 PM

    Karen

    You post:….

    “Someone who used to be on here (maybe it was Pentamom?) once said something along these lines – The socialization kids learn in school is…that the cooler kids rule, how to conform to the rest of the kids to fit in, individuality is not allowed.”

    Karen I don’t believe that the so called “cooler kids rule” all the time, some kids are very gifted with leadership abilities, some are great athletes, or students, some make the best friends in the world. Everyone has a place just as they do when they become adults, marry and have kids of their own. There will be the leaders, those who follow, those who go on to do those things which they are gifted –

    Because some kids are ‘cool’ doesn’t mean that the others have to conform to whatever these kids are doing, they have a choice – Individuality is allowed, its all how you go about it, that’s part of the lessons that kids learn when they go to school –

    For your second post –

    Those who were here hundreds of years ago had a whole different life, some walked three miles to school, some didn’t go to school, never learned to read – We don’t live in those days, it’s interesting to think about but we are living in the 2007, cars, planes, electronics which man could never have thought of all those many years ago – there is no comparison, they also didn’t have antibiotics, many suffered and died -

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90. BY VS 10.14.07 AT 8:36 AM

    Karen O.

    Your voice of reason and peacemaking efforts are appreciated. Thank you.

    Report comment to moderator

91. BY Karen O 10.14.07 AT 12:15 PM

    And thank you, VS.

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92. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 1:57 PM

    If I had not had the opportunity to endure the teasing, I wouldn’t have the skills which I have today

    ******Unbelievable! So, kids need to be teased on picked on in order to be well-adjusted adults? Hmmm, wonder why it didn’t work on the Columbine kids?

    That is absolutely the pit of a ridiculous argument. Kids NEED to be tortured and teased in order to be a well-adjusted adult.

    VERY SAD, Victoria.

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93. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:03 PM

    When kids are raised to be ‘hot house plants’ they don’t really know what the real world is like – then they are thrust into University when they are 17 or 18 -

    ******Again, you’re saying you DIDN’T say homeschool kids are locked in their rooms all day, but that is again EXACTLY what you are implying.

    Read my posts again. My kids are exposed to kids and people of all ages ALL through the week. They deal with other kids in Scouts, in drama, in dance, in homeschool groups, in church…all over the place.

    So, you’re telling me that an institution that didn’t even EXIST for the vast majority of the Earth’s history (i.e. school, and especially High School) is now REQUIRED to build great adults?

    Again, do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

    Shoving kids into a “factory” where those who are different are punished and teased, where the work is poor quality, where the rules are not real to the real world, where they interact only with people of their own ages for the vast majority of the day, where their parents’ world view is scoffed at, and so on is now a REQUIREMENT for doing well at college and in life.

    Earth to Victoria…homeschooled children are doing VERY WELL in college and in life. There are plenty of them out there now. Homeschooling has been going on long enough for second generations to be homeschooling their own, and — based on all indicators — homeschoolers are doing BETTER THAN FINE in college and in life.

    So, where are your facts?

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94. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:05 PM

    I was teased a lot in school

    *****And, why doesn’t that surprise me?

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95. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:08 PM

    How can a kid tell their mom that they really want to go to a regular high school when mom is going to come back with “I have sacrificed all these years to stay home and give you this SPECIAL OPPORTUNITY to home-school you” – that’s a real guilt trap for the kids

    ******I’ll tell you how, Victoria. By talking to us. Because we homeschool our kids, they don’t see us as the “enemy” and actually talk with us like people to people. I don’t have “teen problems.” I have a son who speaks with me, speaks his mind, and helps make the decisions about his education.

    The LAST thing my oldest wants to do is go to public school.

    He did go look at a private Christian school last year for part time enrollment consideration, but HE chose not to attend based on the price and when the classes he wanted were offered.

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96. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:08 PM

    Many of the Home-school kids are from families who are Libertarian

    ******And, many are Conservatives, and many are Liberals, and many are Independents, and so on.

    You obviously know very little about the homeschool community.

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97. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:10 PM

    I would rather my children learn how to communicate a socialize with adults, in an adult manner, rather than in the uncivilized way I and my classmates “socialized”, or the way I see high school students react to each other every day in my position as a teacher.

    ******Exactly. Which type of communication is going to serve them better in the “real world?”

    In fact, which children are already participating in the “real world?” The homeschooled ones. Not those stuck in the completely unreal “factory” of public high school.

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98. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:16 PM

    It is a myth that public school children are better at socialization skills.

    ******Absolutely! In fact, in studies, homeschooled children do BETTER at socialization skills than public schooled children.

    http://learninfreedom.org/socialization.html

    “And Shyers, from the secular perspective of his research, looked at how homeschooled children treat other children. Shyers found no significant difference between his two groups in scores on the Children’s Assertive Behavior Scale. But direct observation by trained observers, using a “blind” procedure, found that home-schooled children had significantly fewer problem behaviors, as measured by the Child Observation Checklist’s Direct Observation Form, than traditionally schooled children when playing in mixed groups of children from both kinds of schooling backgrounds. This observational study was reported in some detail in the 1992 Associated Press article. Shyers concluded that the hypothesis that contact with adults, rather than contact with other children, is most important in developing social skills in children is supported by these data.”

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99. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:20 PM

    learning to compete within an academic environment with other kids their OWN AGE, is a learning experience which needs to be learned BEFORE going on to University -

    *****Why? You are not in college with only people of your own age?

    And, you have been given TONS of information that shows that homeschooled kids know how to do deal with people of ALL ages, which is actually an advantage compared to children who can only deal with others of their own age.

    Again, we have the statistics and studies to back us up. Homeschooled children are going on to college in DROVES and are doing quite well.

    Where is your *objective evidence* that they are not?

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100. BY Victoria 10.14.07 AT 2:20 PM

     TRS

     No TRS kids don’t NEED to be teased, they just ARE –

     You write:…………

     “******Unbelievable! So, kids need to be teased on picked on in order to be well-adjusted adults? Hmmm, wonder why it didn’t work on the Columbine kids?

     That is absolutely the pit of a ridiculous argument. Kids NEED to be tortured and teased in order to be a well-adjusted adult.”

     TRS, so you stoop to twisting what I said bringing up Columbine? What you have said makes no sense, you are taking teasing to an extreme which anyone can do – You do like to take things to an extreme –

     You refer to me “deal with snobs like you” in post #79 …….. and now you compare all teasing and my comments about my life to teasing at Columbine and those horrific murders, which is an extreme situation with two boys who were mentally ill?

     Are you unable to have a conversation without being EXTREME and twisting what I have said or calling names?

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101. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:25 PM

     Children going to public school are not coming out as you say “double-minded” – you simply don’t know what you are talking about when you make that statement

     *****Where are your facts?

     Statistically, the vast majority of Christian students — the VAST majority (some say as much as 96%) — lose their faith and are not Christians anymore once they leave their parents’ home.

     http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/06/us/06evangelical.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

     Where are YOUR studies and statistics?

     I’ve posted this and the John Stossel piece.

     All I hear from you is that you don’t believe it is true with *nothing* but your own opinion to back it up.

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102. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:28 PM

     Victoria,

     Ask anyone. You come across as a snob. I’m sorry to have said it, but it is true. I refer you to your “bolding” everything, your comments to Lynn on the La Jolla thread, and just about everything you post.

     However, I probably shouldn’t have said it. I will refrain in the future.

     As for the other comments, I am simply taking what you say to its logical conclusion.

     ALL of the school shootings have been related to teasing in school. ALL of them. So, you say teasing is good for students (with NO evidence to back it up). All evidence points to teasing doing *horrible* damage to children, ending with its most extreme result: shootings and “revenge” in schools.

     Report comment to moderator

103. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 2:36 PM

     Victoria,

     Please show me evidence: objective, real, evidence for any of your opinions on homeschooling.

     I realize that we all have our opinions. And, if you look through the archives, you will notice that I will tell anyone that the decision to homeschool, private school, or public school, is up to the the family and their personal needs and those of their child. There is not an option that is the ONLY option depending on a family’s needs. (Although I *strongly* encourage families to read up and understand what public school means!)

     A good book: *Brave New Schools* by Berit Kjos. I do think she goes a bit extreme, but she is right.
     http://tinyurl.com/yv7z6z

     But, like Cameron pointed out, you seem unwilling to admit the same, and denigrate homeschooling based on a FEW students (maybe one?) that you have known.

     I have been a public school teacher (as are my sister and sister-in-law and as was my mother and father). I have taught in and have had my kids enrolled in a Classical Christian private school. And, I’m now homeschooling.

     So, I have a little *background* for my opinions. In addition, I have study after study, and statistics, and colleges, and homeschooling groups, and my own anecdotes of HUNDREDS of students to inform my opinions.

     But, you continue to belittle homeschooling based on…what evidence other than your own prejudice?

     Report comment to moderator

104. BY VS 10.14.07 AT 3:05 PM

     TRS – Trying to hold a conversation with “Victoria” is about as fruitful as holding one with “Qwerty”.

     I have to wonder if she isn’t a non-believer, posing as a believer, just to make believers look bad.

     Report comment to moderator

105. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 3:13 PM

     Thanks, VS.

     Still, I allowed myself to get a little peeved.

     Again, I shouldn’t have. My apologies.

     Report comment to moderator

106. BY Victoria 10.14.07 AT 4:00 PM

     VS – 104

     You write:……………….

     “TRS – Trying to hold a conversation with “Victoria” is about as fruitful as holding one with “Qwerty”.”

     “I have to wonder if she isn’t a non-believer, posing as a believer, just to make believers look bad.”

     VS, …………………………YOU question my believe in the LORD Jesus Christ because I don’t agree with home-schooling all the way through High School? Having a different opinion than you or others regarding home-schooling hasn’t one thing to do with MY BEING Born Again Christian, WHICH I AM –

     It’s a shame that we cannot disagree over a subject without using such an accusation as you have used against me, it is to YOUR SHAME that you do so – Your personal attack are not warranted!

     Report comment to moderator

107. BY Victoria 10.14.07 AT 4:39 PM

     TRS – 102 and 103

     I used to believe that home-schooling was the correct way to go – However, after the past few months after OBSERVING those who are home-schooled through High School, I NO LONGER hold that belief – I have explained to you numerous times in my posts why I believe this way – I have also told you that home-schooling is a ‘good thing’ up until the age of 10 or so – I have given you all my reasons, which I have witnessed first hand –

     I have been polite in explaining my reasons, but it no longer is a discussion – TRS, when YOU as an adult start making snide comments about my being a SNOB, such as Post number 70, and then bringing the mass murder of Columbine High School as your argument, when I was trying to explain my position, THE CONVERSATION is OVER – Your comments are rude and uncalled for –

     What I said on the La Jolla thread, I posted because I have FIRST HAND knowledge, if that’s a problem for you, so BE IT! Many wonderful people live there, who have given a great deal to San Diego, that would include hospitals, teaching institutions, and medical research, which is beyond explaining on this post, and they certainly aren’t “snooty” they are gracious and they give because they CARE – If you think I’m a SNOB, that’s OK too.

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108. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 5:00 PM

     Victoria,
     I don’t think that VS is thinking what she stated because you *disagree* with us, but because of HOW you disagree.

     Victoria,

     I don’t think VS’s comment is due to the fact that you disagree with us, but rather with HOW you go about doing it.

     Also, despite what most non-believers seem to think, most Christians on this blog generally try to see the other side, have a sense of humor, and debate using logic. Since this doesn’t seem to be the way you operate, I think this might be why VS questions you.

     Again, I am not dogmatic enough to believe that everyone HAS to homeschool, but to go against all objective evidence and spout stereotypes about homeschooling does get my “dander” up just a tad.

     Report comment to moderator

109. BY VS 10.14.07 AT 5:01 PM

     No, Victoria, it’s not just about this issue – it’s an overall attitude from you about almost any issue that you don’t agree with. You tend to come across as very haughty and superior to the rest of us and you talk down to people as if our opinions and thoughts are just ridiculous. It’s a shame we can’t disagree about an issue without such an attitude.

     I haven’t stated that you aren’t a believer, but have wondered if you were in fact an unbeliever posing as a believer just for the “fun” of it.

     Report comment to moderator

110. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 5:03 PM

     Sorry about the extra sentence that more or less repeats. I’m out and using my Iphone, and I still need practice!

     Report comment to moderator

111. BY Victoria 10.14.07 AT 5:56 PM

     VS – 109

     You POST:

     “I haven’t stated that you aren’t a believer, but have wondered if you were in fact an unbeliever posing as a believer just for the “fun” of it.”

     VS – - – - – - this is one of the most insulting and disgraceful comments I have ever read, it isn’t logical ……. it certainly is CONTRADICTORY!

     And you ‘think’ I might be “posing as a believer just for the “fun” of it.” ?

     There isn’t anything left to say to you, there is no excuse for what you posted, no matter what you say. I’ll leave you to your ill feelings towards me -

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112. BY Victoria 10.14.07 AT 6:51 PM

     It appears ALL PARENTS in California who are Believers will be taking their kids out of PUBLIC SCHOOL if this goes through – This ends the argument for HOME-SCHOOLING, there is now no other alternative except Christian School –
     The NEWS BELOW has not been put out yet, its MAJOR NEWS and the NEWSWIRES are not reporting –

     CCF MEDIA: News Releases
     CAMPAIGN FOR CHILDREN AND FAMILIES
     For Immediate Release
     October 12, 2007

     Arnold Schwarzenegger Signs Bills Forcing Schools to Promote Transsexuality, Bisexuality, and Homosexuality to Five Year Olds

     “Every school a homosexual-bisexual-transsexual indoctrination center”

     “Arnold Schwarzenegger has delivered young children into the hands of those who will introduce them to alternative sexual lifestyles,” said Randy Thomasson, president of Campaign for Children and Families (CCF), which helped lead the statewide charge against these bills. “This means children as young as five years old will be mentally molested in school classrooms. Shame on Schwarzenegger and the Democrat politicians for ensuring that every California school becomes a homosexual-bisexual-transsexual indoctrination center.”

     Under SB 777, which will go into effect on January 1, 2008, the following could be eliminated from California public schools because they are deemed to have a “discriminatory bias”:

     • Textbooks and other instruction that portray marriage as only between a man and a woman
     • Textbooks and other instruction that say people are born male or female (and not in between)
     • Textbooks and other instruction that leave out transsexual, bisexual, and homosexual historical figures
     • Sex education and school assemblies that omit the option of hormone injections or sex changes
     • Homecoming king and queen contests that allow only boys to run for king and only girls to run for queen
     • Boys’ and girls’ bathrooms that separate biological boys from biological girls

     http://www.savecalifornia.com/getpluggedin/news_details.php?newsid=89

     Homosexuals brainwashing our children in elementary schools – TWO VIDEOS

     http://www.massresistance.org/media/video/brainwashing.html

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113. BY TRS 10.14.07 AT 7:10 PM

     Yes, Victoria. On this we agree! Yeah!

     I posted about it earlier on a thread, but can’t find it for the life of me.

     Not only that, but Oregon is doing something similar that takes effect in January. It is going through without a vote, and against the people’s wishes.

     We tried a petition to stop it, but they threw out a bunch of signatures, and claimed that the petition wasn’t good by 116 signatures (a false claim, btw.)

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114. BY Victoria 10.14.07 AT 7:22 PM

     VS

     This was just signed Friday the 12th –
     The opportunity to send an email to Gov. Schwarzenegger has EXPIRED. He has SIGNED most of the anti-family bills into law.

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115. BY Victoria 10.14.07 AT 8:41 PM

     “AB 394 infringes on free speech.”

     “For example, because AB 394 fails to define “harassment,” a parent who says marriage is only for a man and a woman in the presence of a lesbian teacher could be found guilty of “harassment.”

     “Similarly, a student who says you’re born either male or female could be reported as a “harasser” by a male teacher who wears women’s clothes.”

     “Schwarzenegger signed AB 14, which requires more California businesses, as well as some churches and nonprofit organizations, to support and promote transsexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality.”

     http://www.savecalifornia.com/getpluggedin/news_details.php?newsid=89

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116. BY TJ 10.14.07 AT 9:07 PM

     Haven’t seen the bill she’s referencing, but I bet it doesn’t affect churches that are not 501(c)–IRS talk for non-profit. I know a couple churches that don’t hold this status primarily so they’re not beholden to the state in any way.

     Of course, this means any donations are not tax-deductible, but if that’s why someone’s giving, he has bigger problems anyway.

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117. BY Cameron 10.14.07 AT 9:08 PM

     Crud. The above comment is mine–I forgot TJ had been on here first.

     Report comment to moderator

118. BY Peter L 10.14.07 AT 11:09 PM

     TRS- At the risk of being boldly reprimanded by you-know-who, I would encourage you not to respond to her with facts. In that way, she is like a liberal, and cannot be bothered with facts.

     To You-Know-Who-You-Are (we don’t): I was teased to no end from 4th through 8th grade, at a Catholic school. It enraged me to the point of violence, though not as severe as Columbine. I even thought suicidal thoughts in junior high, and thoughts of wishing my tormentors were dead in the 4th grade! Don’t tell me my children have to endure the same just to be well rounded adults. I am the “well balanced” adult I am today by the grace of God, not because of teasing!!!!!

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119. BY Victoria 10.14.07 AT 11:45 PM

     Peter,

     Not all children are so severely teased in school. I certainly had no thoughts as you experienced, when I was teased. I also don’t believe that because there are children who are mean and spiteful, that should cause the entire public school system to be vilified. We all have different opinions, based on personal knowledge, we can share them and still disagree with the other person, without ‘name calling’ or ’snide remarks’ which serve no purpose, – - – isn’t that what we teach our children, either in school or at home, and CHURCH?

     There are many single parents who are unable to home-school their children. They have jobs which don’t allow them to stay home, such as:

     Retail, banking, Real Estate, Mgr’s positions anywhere, airlines, medicine, lawyers, waitresses and a host of other jobs which would never allow these people to home-school, no matter what the reason -

     In light of this horrific Bill being passed last Friday, and hidden as to its passing by all MAJOR NEWS, it changes everything – My husband and I have been discussing EXACTLY what we can do to help – we have some ideas which might alleviate some of the burden on ’single parents’ who are FORCED TO WORK OUTSIDE THE HOME. It won’t solve the whole problem, but just might put a dent in this mess -

     Christian schools are most likely going to be the answer with those who are able and willing to help pave and pay the way for this to take place –

     With this taking place in other states, and now the state of California as of January 2008 we have little time to work, but we know that God knows about this, and HE will work this out according to HIS WILL -

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120. BY Victoria 10.15.07 AT 1:01 AM

     Joseph took a great deal of abuse from his brothers, as they sold him into Egypt. It must have been the saddest day of his life. God had had a plan for that family, and although it was impossible to see, Joseph, would be an instrument of God to feed and bring his family to a safe place. The story of Jacob and Joseph, the way God planned the whole event, as painful as it was, should be a lesson to us all to understand trials, which are burdensome, but have a reason - And through all this the 12 Tribes of Israel – have you ever wondered what would have happened if Joseph had he rebelled against his circumstances, had allows himself to sinfully be involved with Potiphar’s wife? This young boy when sold by his brothers, is proof that although these hardships, even to a young boy, can be part of God’s Will – If it were not so, it would never have happened to Joseph –

     20 – But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

     21 – Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.

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121. BY Victoria 10.15.07 AT 1:02 AM

     The above text was taken from Genesis 50:20-21

     “He assures them of his own kindness to them. See what an excellent spirit Joseph was of, and learn of him to render good for evil. He comforted them, and, to banish all their fears, he spake kindly to them. Broken spirits must be bound up and encouraged. Those we love and forgive, we must not only do well for, but speak kindly to.” Matthew Henry

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122. BY TRS 10.15.07 AT 3:56 AM

     Victoria,

     No one even suggested that public schools be shut down. Unfortunately, they are presently necessary for the single parent (not always), the double-income family, and other such cases. So, I have no idea where you got that idea.

     There are many other options, though, that would be well looked into. Vouchers to go to the private school of one’s choice perhaps. Homeschool parents who tutor kids not their own (we have a single parent friend who pays another homeschooling friend to babysit and homeschool her daughter). School co-ops where parents take turns teaching groups of children in subjects of interest. Christian schools and other private schools.

     As to your last few posts, I’m not really getting your point. They seem rather rambling and disjointed to me. If you’re trying to say that God works all things to the good for those that are called according to His purpose, then why not just say that instead of quoting long passages about Joseph?

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123. BY Karen O 10.15.07 AT 12:56 PM

     Victoria – Where I really stand on the schooling issue is that I believe each set of parents must seek God’s will for their children. And part of that is to lay aside our preconceptions of the various forms of schooling.

     As our older daughter was approaching kindergarten age, we considered homeschooling her. Through different ways, God made it clear that it was His will for Emily (& later her little sister, Chrissy) to go to public school.

     Years later, when Emily was in 8th grade, & Chrissy in 5th, God used a question, followed by much prayer, to lead us to begin homeschooling the following year. Initially, I thought His answer would be no about that, but He changed my mind.

     And it was quite a surprise to me that God wanted us to change course. If we had not put aside our preconceptions, & opened ourselves to His will in prayer, we would have missed it.

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124. BY Victoria 10.15.07 AT 1:12 PM

     TRS

     —-“No one even suggested that public schools be shut down. Unfortunately, they are presently necessary for the single parent (not always), the double-income family, and other such cases. So, I have no idea where you got that idea.”—-

     TRS, I haven’t suggested that public schools be shut down either, so what is your POINT?

     —-”Homeschool parents who tutor kids not their own (we have a single parent friend who pays another homeschooling friend to babysit and homeschool her daughter). School co-ops where parents take turns teaching groups of children in subjects of interest. Christian schools and other private schools.”—-

     TRS, not all single parents can afford to pay others for teaching their children. Many public schools offer ‘after school care’ free for those single parents or those unable to pay for babysitting after school.

     Mothers who work a full day, who have shopping marketing, etc., not to mention helping a child with homework have no time to teach other kids after school – I don’t know how many single moms you have known, or know, but I have never met one who could take on another responsibility after a nine hour day at the office, to take turns teaching, not to mention all the responsibilities of running a home –

     I agree about vouchers, but I don’t think the money would be sufficient to pay for private school – I could be wrong -

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