Make your kid shut up, please
Last year, I was walking down the sidewalk, pushing my daughter in the stroller, when a small group of kids approached. They looked to be in junior high: too old to be cowed by the very presence of an adult, and too young to stab me with any mortal force. The kids – about seven or eight of them – were walking home from school. The boys in the group were hooting and screaming and generally acting like they had rabies or Mad Cow. I approached, and they approached, and we approached each other, but they never slowed the screaming. My presence, as an adult, had no effect on their behavior. I thought it might scare my daughter – and I was also offended that my adultness had no effect on them – and so, when our paths converged on the sidewalk, I stopped and said: “Can someone please make your friends hush?”
The kids were shocked. I might as well have been a talking tree. The boys stopped braying for a moment, but quickly shared choice words with me when they were too far for me to correct without looking like an old corkscrew. Granted, there were no parents around, and I was a teacher at a military school for boys, where I regularly made young men do pushups for far less, but still, I wondered: Why do I not do this more? This column from Newsweek explores why we don’t discipline other people’s children as much anymore, and asks if we shouldn’t bring it back. It’s a question of pluralism, of moral authority, and of shared/not shared values.
But, in this culture, moral authority – rather than self-righteousness – shocks Americans of all ages, which is, I think, perfect reason for wielding it.














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back to top36 Comments to “Make your kid shut up, please”
This is something I long to do! But out of what I’m sure is irrational fear (or maybe not) I don’t. There is no longer respect for adults, or very little of it, therefore I anticipate that my attempt would at the very least be sneered at or worse, physically retaliated against.
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We don’t do it more because we’re afraid–of what the kids might do, of what their idiot parents might do of what a gang of them might do.
I picked up my daughter at junior high a couple years ago after the Gideons had been there and while I sat in the car waiting for her, a beefy braying bufoon of a boy ripped apart a green pocket-sized Bible. I debated a minute, then got out of the car with thunder on my face and held out my hand.
Fortunately I was taller than he was.
All I had to do was snap my fingers. He handed me the remains of the book, picked up a couple pieces of Corinthians floating about and turned tail, I presume, for home.
I probably would not have done it had he been a different race, had some friends around or if he hadn’t looked humiliatable. Because I would have been afraid.
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I had my grandchildren (3 & 5) at a park this summer and realized the other kids close to their age were not at the playground section. However, there were a rowdy, loud group of 5 jr hi aged boys and they were climbing all over the equipment which intimidated my little ones.
I asked the boys if they didn’t think they were a bit too big for the equipment and they just looked at each other laughing. I finally told them that they needed to get off of the swings and slide and move to another area of the park. They looked at me as if I’d grown two heads. One started arguing with me and I told them if they had a problem with it, they could take it up with “that man there” – who was my husband who had stopped en route with me and the kids to talk to someone.
They walked away muttering and giving us dirty looks. Shortly after that some of the younger moms and their little ones joined us and said they just didn’t want to deal with those older kids.
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Harrison,
I gotta take issue with you on this one.
1. What’s wrong with boys being boys? It’s hard enough for boys to sit still in a classroom all day. So when they get out of school they tend to let loose. They were out on the street walking home. It’s not like you were in church or even a store.
2. What – are children supposed to tiptoe past your presence? Why do we expect children to be seen and not heard? What’s wrong with letting a kid be a kid? They weren’t hurting anyone or misbehaving. You come across like an old grouch
3. Yes, kids can be annoying and loud. It irritates me sometimes too! But when have kids ever been quite, docile, little angels? I dare say you were just as annoying and loud as a kid.
4. You attempted to pull rank on them, and they reacted like any kid would. It’s not like you had any kind of an existing relationship with them that gave you any standing to collar them. If you did have some kind of relationship and/or know who they were, you could call their parents and talk to them about it, and let them handle it.
Finally, I understand what you’re saying about the lack or moral authority. I grew up in a neighborhood where if I did something wrong one of the neighbors would call my mom and tell her. Everyone looked out for each other’s kids and made sure we behaved. My mom could kick us out the door at 9 a.m. in the summer, and we could roam the neighborhood playing, and not come home till supper. She didn’t have to worry about us. We’d take our race cars to the toy store and they’d let us use their track to race them. If we got out of hand or did something wrong, the store manager would call our mom and we’d lose the privilege. The point is, there were existing relationships (neighbors, store owners, etc.) and an agreement on what was considered acceptable behavior.
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I also speak up to young people (mostly guys but not so unusual to hear the young girls doing the same) who are using vulgar language in public. Most of the time, they seem to be shocked that someone has publicly corrected them – I think I only had a negative reaction once.
Michelle, that is so cool that you did that! Good for you!
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Hush?!? “Make your friends hush”?! I burst out laughing like a junior high kid over that archaic request.
I agree with letting boys be boys. I often find that parents of younger childre or parents of only girls take umbrage at behavior they would not had they older children or boys themselves.
My husband is a teacher and I work with this age all the time at church. And we have seven kids. We are quite used to guiding other people’s children. It spills over into public places. My husband used his “teacher voice” when we walked into McDonald’s and some boys were skateboarding on the seats. The employees thanked him and we scratched our heads that no one said anything.
We have learned a couple of things in dealing with other people’s children. Don’t start with a scold. “A soft answer turns away wrath.” If a kid is goofing up he knows it before you even say anything.
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The best thing to do is to pepper-spray them. Or mace. Either works. Usually.
One of the saddest movies I ever saw was that black tragedy about a flying car manned by some of the most vile villians ever cast on the silver screen, including two absolutely horrifying children. In this relentlessly depressing movie, the incredibly heroic main character known as the ‘Child Catcher’, although fighting gamely to the very end, met a dismal fate. The movie has a very apocalyptic and pessimistic ending; I thought that there might be a sequel where things get straightened out, but I am pretty sure it didn’t happen.
It gave me nightmares for a long time.
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Drill LOL
Love your take on Chitty Chitty Bang Bang!
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I think that it’s the disrespectful attitude behind the loud behavior that we’re objecting to – not boys being boys – at least that’s where I’m coming from. You can sense the difference.
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VS,
How would Harrison (or any of us) know the boys attitude, when they’re total strangers to us? What Harrison didn’t like is that they were being loud and boisterous. That’s not being disrespectful. It’s boys being boys.
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Harrison, While I agree that we should correct other people’s children when they are doing bad things (swearing, fighting, destroying property), along with Anlir and adios, I have to take issue with you here. I teach high school, and it is very difficult for the young (especially boys) to sit still and be quiet for so long. These boys were just releasing 7 hours of being cooped up in a building, having to be quiet. Adolescent boys need time to unwind and make noise, which is one reason I think schools are doing a disservice to the students by having half-hour or shorter lunch periods, or no recess for the 7th-9th graders. Let them get out and run and make noise so they will not disrupt the class so much.
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It might have worked better, Harrison, if you had tried catching the eye of one of them and sotto-whispered, “You’re scaring the little one,” and pointed at your child.
I agree with a lot of the above comments, most teenage boys could understand not wanting to frighten a toddler and might modulate their behavior for 10 steps or so.
We were at a volleyball match last week and inadvertantly sat with a wild group of high school boys, chanting, shrieking, singing and making a lot of noise for the opponents. The refs stopped the game to admonish them to behave and the coach kept trying to hush them.
I squirmed and had to bite my tongue. Sure, they needed to be quiet during the serve, but they were so much fun otherwise, it took great effort for me to remain an adult. High spirits, yes; disrespect, no.
And that includes me.
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Harrison — why didn’t you just command them to do push-ups. They might have obeyed and you would now feel triumphant instead of dissed. After the push-ups, they might have submitted to some additional level of punishment you thought appropriate for their misbehavior.
On the other hand, it seems like you had the opportunity to cross the street or turn up a sidewalk or speed up. And if that woman with the loose skin who repeats the complaints she reads in the NYTimes keeps bothering you, go to a different coffee shop, or make your own.
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I still look a little scary, and learned a little about presence from being raised by Marines and coaching rowdy hockey players. I still pipe up when the kids around me get out of hand (I have a fairly high tolerance for non-dangerous rowdiness, so it is usually pretty egregious for me to inject myself into things).
When I was a kid, the neighbors felt free to swat misbehaving kids. When word filtered back home, dad beat you double for embarrassing hum & mom by misbehaving at the neighbors’. We were good elsewhere because being bad got you a triple shot of punishment.
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Perhaps I misrepresented myself in the original post.
Should boys be boys? Yes.
Does a gentle answer turn away wrath? Yes.
Is an assertive male answer sometimes necessary for young boys? Yes.
Is there a time for screaming like a banshee? Yes.
(As a former teacher at a military school full of banshees, we afforded them a lot of time to bray and beat one another. I am also somewhat of a banshee, if you can discern from my posts.)
Manners is not about not braying. It’s about knowing when to bray and when to shut up. Braying into my child’s stroller with the abandon of an untrained monkey requires something from me, and I supplied it, and the kids shut up when it mattered.
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Harrison,
Oh well – I guess we had to be there, right? It’s difficult to convey a human “interaction” in writing. Those of us who weren’t there probably missed some of the nuance and context.
In any event, leaving aside your incident with the boys, I think you point is well taken. Forgive me if I focused on your example too much to the detriment of your point, which is a valid one:
Why we don’t discipline other people’s children?
In a pluralistic society, I suppose we’re going to have to work harder at finding common ground, and proceed from there. I do think it’s possible to find common ground, though it’s not going to be to anyone’s complete satisfaction.
I’m of the mind we should focus on the basics (do not harm others, do not mistreat others, no fighting, don’t steal, etc.) – the things that nearly all people can agree on. Will there be outliers who won’t agree with even the basics? Sure. There always has been.
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We should all remember that speaking harshly to children can lower their self esteem. For instance, if you should catch a group of youngsters hot-wiring your car in preparation for making off with it, you should not upbraid them or unduly criticize them; certainly do not hit them with your umbrella or shoot them or anything – such behavior can cause youngsters a great deal of internal stress, which is, in turn, clinically related to acne and further criminal behavior.
Instead take a positive modernist approach; compliment them on their technical prowness – after all, it takes skill and confidence and brashness to properly hotwire a car.
And, as another example, if you should see them beating up an old lady on the street; do not lecture them or make any attempt to stop them – they may take this as criticism and it may damage their self image which numerous modern University studies has shown results in clinical depression.
Instead think positive reinforcement; in fact, take the opportunity to praise them for their zeal in doing a job and doing it ao very thoroughly. Perhaps even point out to them that they are preparing themselves for a fine career in journalism or with Move-On Org or some other political organization.
You can’t be too careful with today’s kids: Think of them as little flowers to be carefully tended.
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Harrison — Maybe hearing wild boy noise was good for your daughter’s brain. Young children enjoy loud high-pitched voices. Even if she was scared (which would surprise me), you were there to reassure, a positive learning experience for both. I’d be more concerned about Muzak in the stores, actually. Remember, this only happened a year ago. You’re doing great, sharing this. As time goes by, the memory will become less stressful.
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Thanks, Mr. Scroop. I also complain about Muzak, if that makes you feel better.
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“Braying into” your child’s stroller, Harrison? Your initial telling seemed to indicate that they were already braying and simply chose not to stop as you passed each other by, but if they were truly braying into the stroller then they’ve clearly invaded your personal space and deserved whatever telling off you gave them. If that was simply a bit of hyperbole, however, then what manners do you object to them not having? You were “offended that your adultness had no effect on them”, but why on earth should it?
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Is Harrison suggesting It Takes a Village?
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I’m with Harrison on this one. Letting boys be boys does not mean letting them be disrespectful toward adults. There is a time and a place for everything and letting them be wild is fine, but not anywhere and everywhere.
Our local library had a notice in the town’s newspaper that it was going to start ejecting people from the building who were making it difficult for others to use the place for its intended purpose. my wife tells me its the middle schoolers who come down in packs after school and do nothing you’d associate with library business.
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TRR,
Is walking home from school supposed to be a quiet time for reflection? Good grief – I walked home from school all 12 years. We did everything from seeing who could stomp the hardest in a mud puddle, to playing keep-away with someone’s hat, to acting like monkeys who’d just escaped from the zoo. We yelled at each other, we chased each other, and we even frammed on each other occasionally. The point is, we didn’t do anything wrong. We didn’t harass people or throw rocks or break anything. Was our behavior disrespectful toward adults? After 7 hours cooped up in a school building, what’s inappropriate or disrespectful about boys letting off some steam while walking home from school?
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Children will be children and they should be. They should also be in training to be adults. As such, they should be taught to have a sense of propriety. As is often evident in adults, too few children have been taught appropriate behavior.
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I spend all day disciplining other people middle school kids mainly because they don’t want to. The village scenario so desparently pinned for in some golden age (the irony may be lost on some, Hamachi) does not and probably rarely ever existed.
I agree with Michelle (#12) that a reminder of their effect on smaller children and their role as role model in K-8 schools works much better than “Hush”. Hush would have my students laughing and rememnscing about it for weeks — fairly archaic.
In general, I agree with Anlir and the others, lighten up. You may teach military school but you might have a hard time with the kids from the projects especially if you ask them to hush.
As for the linked article, I detect a certain longing for homeogentiy and an uncomfortableness with pluralism which though not racism was definitely enthocentric.
Drill — I once taught a mentally challenged or general learning delayed child (use label of your choice) who was an expert at using a coat hanger to open a car door and hot wiring cars. We were never sure how to transfer this talent to something legitimate.
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So, Harrison, the boys were yelling directly into your daughter’s stroller? I didn’t get that idea from your original post. If that is the case, you did right. Otherwise, better they are just yelling and braying, instead of stealing cars and/or beating up little old ladies.
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No Anlir, what you described sounds A-OK to me.
It sounds different from what Harrison described though, and different from what’s going on at our local library.
There’s a neighbor boy who plays with my son from time to time, and when I ask him not to do something, when he’s on my property, I should expect him to comply, if reasonable, not to have him look at me like I’m an idiot. That’s the kind of thing I (and I think Harrison) am (are) talking about.
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Sometimes I think people are purposely dense just for the sake of an argument.
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In Chicago, living in an all-black neighborhood, I learned the value of intervening when necessary. Black mothers did it far better than I did. One day two young children were going after a kitten that was hiding under a bush. I don’t think they were being cruel, but one had a stick and the kitten was scared. (They were two young children, and they looked like they were trying to get the kitten to come out so they could pet it.)
I stepped into the scene and said cautiously, “Kids, look, the kitten is scared. Why don’t you leave it alone?” A passing car stopped, and a woman yelled out the window, “Kids, leave that poor cat alone and go home!”
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In Chicago, the middle school and high school students on city busses bothered me the most. If they’d been younger they would have been with an adult. If they had been older, they would have understood social etiquette. At the age they were, they had no constraints.
I’m grateful for my church, where adults are not only allowed, but expected, to gently speak to other people’s children, and children are expected to listen. It helps that we are a small church and we know one another’s children (people would give a little more leeway, and a little more gentleness, to my foster kids, for instance, than to a kid who’s been in the church for ten years and knows all the rules). But it’s one of the reasons that I want to be in that church, especially with kids.
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Harrison,
I remember when I first made the same realization about correcting other people’s kids.
We were at an amusement park. The first incident happened while I was waiting outside the line at a roller coaster, with my cousin’s 3 year old daughter. Two Jr. High school aged kids were kissing and petting pretty heavily.
My young niece (that’s how I view her)couldn’t stop staring. I moved, but we could still see them. Also, she began craning her neck to get a better view.
Finally I thought, “Enough!”
“Excuse me, you two. We’re out in public, and I don’t know how to explain your behavior to my young niece.”
“Oh!” one of them said.
“Besides, as a mom, I’m here to tell you that you’re playing with fire. You might want to reconsider what you’re doing.”
Later that day, we were walking around the same park, when I heard a group of teenagers talking loudly. They were talking about things that would make a sailor blush. (Trust me, you don’t want to know.) Really shocking talk from what looked like nice suburban kids, especially the girls. (I still remember the power of peer pressure and mob mentality).
Finally, I spoke: “Young lady! Does your mother know you talk that way out in public!?”
She looked shocked.
“No, ma’am.”
“That is no way for a lady to act in public! Your language is shocking, and little kids can hear you, too!”
She came up to me a few moments later, pleading, “I’m really not like that. I’m so sorry. Please don’t think I’m like that.”
From that day, I only hoped that if my kids acted out publicly, that some mom or dad would speak sense to them and hold them accountable.
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I should add that we were walking in the same direction, and they were directly behind us in a mob.
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Kids should work be forced to work hard on a farm until they beg to get a chance to go to school.
I keep offering to put my granddaughter at forced labor in our garden, pulling weeds, tossing rocks, and killing slugs, but her mommies don’t take me up on off offer.
Also, she knows she should says “Please,” and “Thank you,” but often forgets. A diet of vegetables and no treats would probably cure that in a hurry, but again I am overruled.
After all, she’s three, and soon will be four. Time to shape up or get sent to hard labor.
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I corrected a young girl who socialized extensively in church one evening, and her father rebuked me for talking to her instead of to him. I was unpleasantly surprised that he didn’t just back me up.
She was sitting on the same pew as her parents, and they didn’t seem to notice at all.
I leave her alone, now.
Can someone give me a scriptural reason to confront or not confront the children of others?
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TRR — “I should expect him to comply, if reasonable, not to have him look at me like I’m an idiot. ”
What fun would this kid be for your son to play with if he didn’t make a face when he heard something that sounded unreasonable — in the middle of play? It’s one thing to require behavior — it’s something else to demand a token of submission in a time and place when it’s not necessary except to gratify an adult’s self-image.
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As a retired educator, I have watched the manners of children deteriorate over many years. Many parents have taken the approach that they had rather defend their child’s obnoxious behavior than deal with trying to correct it. The truth be known – they lack the parenting skills to deal with their child’s behavior at home. They are embarrassed by it and so try to bluff their way through it by being offended by the other adult who points out the problem.
Modern parents are too often distracted by their professions, personal problems, need for “down-time” and stress to give the personal attention to their children that they often need. Some are just too plain selfish and are consumed by their own need to please themselves.
I realize that many single parents have to work long hours, overtime, and sometimes two jobs just to make ends meet. Children are spending a lot of time in day cares. Research has been coming out since the 1980’s about the many negative emotional effects these day cares are having upon the mental health of our children prior to school age. If your child must attend a daycare, choose very wisely. We must remember, however, there is no substitute for a child being raised in the home by his or her natural or adopted parent.
A child with a bad attitude is usually a good sign that the attitude has been modeled for them at home. On the other hand, I have conferenced with parents of three children or more – the majority of whom were well-rounded all-American kids – who had one child that was the holy terror opposite of the others. The parents would sometimes break down in tears trying to understand what they did wrong with this one difficult child. It seems that sometimes they did nothing obviously wrong. I believe some children are just born cranky. It would be good to identify this earlier and perhaps seek professional guidance.
One of the biggest problems children have in our culture is that their parents like to run interference for them. In other words, parents are too quick to try to prevent their child from suffering the natural consequences of bad decisions. The early years are the best times for children to learn these kinds of lessons. I’m not suggesting you allow your child to run out into the street in front of a car. I am suggesting that having to endure the consequences of missed homework, bad grades, poor conduct at school, making a mess, disobeying the teacher, and hitting or pushing others or being disrespectful to anyone are usually good learning experiences in which we should not interfere with the consequences administered by other adults. You also have the right to spank your child and should do so as needed. Some children only require a warning. Others need to experience the consequences of sustained disbelief in your willingness and commitment to follow through.
Television has become a major threat to raising a well mannered, respectful child. Monitor its use carefully. Popular music lyrics are too often a reflection of an emotionally disturbed personality. Listen to what your child is listening to. Monitor peer influence on your child. Don’t allow your child to hang out with bad role models. If you feel that another child in your son or daughter’s class is a bad influence on your child, request the principal to assign them to different classes next year.
There is no such person as the perfect parent or the perfect child. As parents, however, we have a high calling and responsibility to be good stewards of the children God has blessed us with. Pray with and for your children regularly. Read them Bible stories and other children’s stories with strong Christian values. Take them (don’t just send them)to church and Sunday school regularly. Teach them that our first duty is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.
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