Boy Scout rent hike
The city of Philadelphia has hiked the rent paid by the Boy Scouts’ Cradle of Liberty Council — by $199,000 per year. City officials notified scout leaders that the chapter must pay “fair-market rent” for its city-owned headquarters because the chapter refuses to admit homosexual scouts. The Cradle of Liberty council in 2003 adopted a nondiscrimination policy, but was ordered to rescind it by the National Council, which said local councils cannot deviate from national rules. The Washington Times reports:
The organization’s Cradle of Liberty Council, which pays $1 a year in rent, must pay the increased amount to remain in its downtown building past May 31, Fairmount Park Commission president Robert N.C. Nix said Wednesday. City officials say they cannot legally rent taxpayer-owned property for a nominal sum to a private organization that discriminates. The city owns the land on which the council’s 1928 Beaux Arts building sits.
Scout officials will ask the city solicitor for details on the appraisals that yielded the $200,000 figure, said Jeff Jubelirer, spokesman for the Cradle of Liberty Council. The higher rent money “would have to come from programs. That’s 30 new Cub Scout packs, or 800 needy kids going to our summer camp,” Mr. Jubelirer said. “It’s disappointing, and it’s certainly a threat.”
There’s a bizarre point of constitutional law involved in this case. The Supreme Court ruled in 2000 that the Boy Scouts, as a private group, have a First Amendment right to bar homosexuals from membership because homosexual practice violates the group’s beliefs.
But the Scouts in 2004 lost another case, BSA v. Wyman, at the circuit level. The Supreme Court let stand a 2nd Circuit decision holding that it was constitutionally permissible to exclude the Scouts from a state charitable program because the Scouts excluded avowed homosexuals from leadership positions. (Meanwhile, homosexual activist organizations such as the Lambda Legal Defense Fund are allowed to participate in the state charitable campaign.)
The Boy Scouts appealed, arguing that the court was penalizing them for exercising a right that the Supreme Court said they had the right to exercise. But the high court declined to review the case. Constitutional attorney Walter Weber told me the 2nd Circuit’s opinion, which is now the prevailing precedent, says, essentially, that “there’s a difference between forcing someone to do something that violates their beliefs and making them pay a price for refusing to do it.”
A fine difference, indeed.

















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back to top30 Comments to “Boy Scout rent hike”
I once belonged to the cub scouts. I flunked square knot tying. They never asked me if I was a queer (I knew I wasn’t) or if I was an atheist (I knew I was).
The good old days weren’t as good as you think.
I think the Scouts should be allowed to discriminate. I think the Scouts should pay through the nose for the use of public facilities.
The good new days aren’t any better.
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#1:I think the Scouts should be allowed to discriminate. I think the Scouts should pay through the nose for the use of public facilities.
I completely agree. Children have to taught who to hate. Otherwise, they pick on cripples the mentally challanged. The need to channel that feeling of superiority into hating people they will probably never know. It’s much less harmful.
I was a Boy Scout. Didn’t make Eagle, we moved. Loved it though. Never talked about sex, gays or God. Talked about camping, merit badges, playing games and just having a good time. Scoutmaster Hale, where ever you are, thank you. You were the best.
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Children have to taught who to hate. Otherwise, they pick on cripples the mentally challanged. The need to channel that feeling of superiority into hating people they will probably never know. It’s much less harmful.
Not sure of your tone here, but you’re missing the point, possibly. This is about one (albeit not foolproof or overarching) way to protect our kids.
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I agree with Random here.
The Scouts can certainly argue that as a private group they should be allowed to discriminate.
This, however, puts them in a difficult position regarding dealing with organizations which have clear anti-discrimination policies.
I was also a scout. It was where I began my mountaineering activities. We actually had many known homosexuals involved at the time and it did not detract from the overall experience.
As RDEAN says we focused on skills of varying typices, camping, hiking, knots, first aid, morse code etc, many of which I remember and still use to this day.
It is a shame that such an excellent organization has taken such a regressive position here.
They possibly have the right to do so, but they also then have the right to reap the rewards of such a discriminatory policy.
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There’s are two important principles that must be upheld:
1. The Boy Scouts are a private organization. The Supreme Court ruled that they can discriminate.
2. Public accommodations which are taxpayer supported should not be in the business of discrimination. They are prohibited from doing so.
Personally, I don’t think the Boy Scouts should be able to use taxpayer supported property to practice their discrimination at all. But if they are going to use it, they should pay the same rate as everyone else.
Why should the gay citizens, their families, and everyone else who objects to discrimination against gays be forced to hand over their tax money to a private group, who uses that money to turn around and practice discrimination against them? It’s immoral and in Philadelphia it’s illegal.
Look, if the KKK were renting city property for $1 a year to have Klan meetings, would ya’ll object?
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This type of prejudice about the boy scouts drives me crazy. As I’ve mentioned before, all three of our sons are Eagle scouts, so we’ve spent a lot of time with five different troops owing to all our moves. And I was a den mother for seven years.
I can’t remember a time when homosexuality was discussed or kids were discriminated against. I remember, instead, adults bending over backwards to help boys find a place in the troop and master some skills. I remember one kid in particular, the skate boarding son of Mendocino county druggies, who needed a ride to meetings, needed help with his uniform, needed money to go to camp and needed some decent friends. I think the Boy Scouts saved his life. But all we ever hear about is how the BSA discriminates against homosexual potential leaders.
You know what? The boy scouts already ran that exercise and had to pay out a lot of money in the 1970s and 1980s to boys harmed by homosexual leaders. They had to completely revamp their adult training system–to the better–to ensure it would not easily happen again.
With two-deep leadership, troops probably could have gay leaders without too many problems. They just don’t want a person’s sexual activities to be their defining character trait. And I don’t think that’s healthy either.
It’s a shame Philadelphia choses to look at a narrow opinion of people who mean harm, rather than at all the positive good Boy Scouts do in their communities. And what sort of a lesson do these Philadelphia folks think they are passing on to the youth of their community?
That someone’s sexual orientation is more important than positive youth programs.
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Michelle post 6,
but of course the solution is simple.
In sist in two deep leadership as you described.
Stop making sexual orientation an issue in troops.
And the situation resolves.
The Boy Scouts can, with the use of an eraser (pen not even required) eliminate this problem. It is the Boy Scouts who insist on making this an issue.
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There are many gay and pedophiles involved in scouting even at the highest national levels. There was a gay leader of our pack as a kid that tried his best to get into the boys pants while camping or away from their parents. He was also the leader of our Explorer Troop later and was my Civics teacher in High School. He retired but is still, active in scouting.
My old head of Risk Management, Health and Safety holds a like position nationally in scouting and he is gay. I asked him why he was involved in scouting and he said “you have to go where the boys are.” I told him I would read about him in prison and he said that was highly unlikely with the all the gays involved in scouting. I demoted him for other reasons and he eventuially left our company.
He too is still actively involved in scouting and I believe him too. If I know two gay men who have been involved in scouting for many years, how many could there be? I am guessing the Scouts have a problem similar to gay Catholic priests. But I don’t have a boy in the fight.
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Like Random, I once was a scout. However, it was a very positive experience for me, as it has been for millions of young men who have benefited from the many character building aspects of their programs.
The Scouts are right in prohibiting pedophile organizations like the Lambda group from using the Scouts as their “happy hunting ground.” The Scouts are far more concerned about protecting young boys from predators than they are about simply exercising their right to discriminate, as Random puts it.
In the history of this country, the contributions of the Boy Scouts to our society are beyond counting. As a society we benefit by helping them. It costs the city of Philadelphia virtually nothing to allow the Scouts to use their facility. The city gains incalculable benefits in return. Yet, now they are throwing all that away. And for what? — to cave in to the homosexual lobby that stubbornly refuses to recognize the rights of others.
People like the Lambda group, vindictive as ever, seek to make the Scouts pay for snubbing them. They, like Random, “…think the Scouts should pay through the nose…” for what they have done.
Random thinks that, “The good new days aren’t any better.” I believe he is partially correct in that assessment. Our new day is bad and getting worse when we reject the good and favor the bad.
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Michelle,
The Boy Scouts made their bed. They said “we want to practice discrimination against gay people”. They took it all the way to the Supreme Court, and they won. Bully for them.
Now they’re going to pay the price for their discrimination.
Look – you can’t have it both ways. You get yourself declared a private organization with the right to discriminate. But you can’t then turn around and demand taxpayer support to practice your discrimination.
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“Meanwhile, homosexual activist organizations such as the Lambda Legal Defense Fund are allowed to participate in the state charitable campaign.”
Well yes, Lambda Legal has very comprehensive non-discrimination policies going well above and beyond most legal or programmatic requirements. Why would any non-discrimination policy bar them from participating in city programs.
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As in most situations ADULTS ruined a perfectly good organization for children. I know a family that pulled their children out of all sports activities because of the way the adults behaved. I was in a girls youth organization and the girls got along ok but the adults were something else. I would love for my daughter to know the lessons taught by this organization but I refuse to expose her to the adult leadership that is in place now. I am thinking of dragging out my old “ritual” and teaching it to her myself, but it sure would be prettier if she could see other girls involved.
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The courts seem to have gotten this one bang-on perfect.
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llama post 8,
I think it is important to separate the concept of gays and pedophiles.
Most peodphiles do not appear to be gay.
Not all who are gay are pedophiles.
So I suggest you have over generalized here.
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My demented kick of this week is about risk and precision in law enforcement.
Every so often a child goes on a scout activity and breaks a limb or dies in an accident.
Sometimes such a tragedy is the result of an unavoidable accident and sometimes it is the result of negligence or incompetence. When such a mishap occurs, it should be investigated. If someone’s fault, action should be taken. If we can learn how to prevent such accidents in the future, changes such be made. But especially in a laissez faire cult like wmb, no one would say stop letting children learn skills and have adventure because risk is involved.
The same thing is true about molestation and rape and seduction. These are wrong and sensible steps to prevent them should be taken. The fear and panic about them is much more exaggerated in a group such as this than in other groups, just as fear of racial prejudice would be exaggerated in a black organization.
Probably it would be sensible (though most unlikely) for the scouts to sponsor homosexual troops led by homosexual scout lealers working in pairs of opposite sex.
Probably, also atheist scout troops as well.
I have many calm, sensible ideas. People should listen to them and pay me well for them, instead of chasing me with sharpened sticks and flaming faggots.
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One of the best things we can do is tell our children when they are small that anything their bathing suit covers is private. No one can touch you without your permission. If someone makes you feel funny tell me. NO ONE can hurt mommy and daddy and if someone tells you they will don’t believe them and tell me or tell some other adult. I was molested as a child. My dad somehow got clued in and it was stopped before it really got started. I trust myself. When I was in the girls youth group there was an older man who brought his granddaughter. I was known to run from him. I could not stand for him to even try to shake my hand. Many times I hid in the restroom to keep him from trying to hug me. The Mother Advisor knew that he made me uncomfortable and ran interference for me. About 5 or 6 years ago she called me to tell me it had finally come out that the whole time he was molesting his granddaughter. Children are perceptive little buggers and if we teach them to trust themselves they will be better. My daughter has had urinary tract problems. Her pediatrician and her pediatric urologist have both told her ” I can examine you in your private area because I am a doctor and there is a nurse in the room and your mom and dad are in the room. No one else can do this.” Pedophiles don’t have a neon sign on their forehead identifying them. Parents have to be vigilant.
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It sounds like the local Scout council in Miseodelphia, in 2003, tried to cave into homosexualist intimidation and the National council had to remind them that Scouts have high standards for safety, autonomy and decency.
Perhaps this particular local council actually needed to see how mean and judgmental the homosexualists could be.
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Mumsee,
I don’t think I said that gays were pedophiles or the other way around either – because this is obviously not the case. But, I did not generalize either. The two cases I mentioned and personally know to be true – these men were both gay and pedophiles.
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As city officials increasingly bully the Boy Scouts and as Scouts are met with more and more unfriendliness from public sector social engineers, perhaps the Scouts will turn more and more to churches for mutually respectful and friendly associations and space usage.
For years, our church let the Scouts use our facilities for free.
So sue us.
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#8: I asked him why he was involved in scouting and he said “you have to go where the boys are.” I told him I would read about him in prison and he said that was highly unlikely with the all the gays involved in scouting.
Come on. You made that up. Pedophiles hide their stuff. They don’t go around crowing about it. Someone’s nose has grown.
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Is there not a church in Philadelphia that can step forward and offer them space? I’m sure there is.
Conflict resolved.
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Rdean, you’re kind of new but let me tell you how it works around here.
We just ignore llama! When he’s ranting and raving or when he’s stealing Monkey’s bit and pretending to be a real llama, it doesn’t matter, we just ignore him.
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Should the Girls Scouts be forced to allow men to take little girls on camping trips. Isn’t this the same thing?
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I just noticed that Joel is back. I should probably do the same thing with Joel Mark that Luke suggests for llama, when Joel pretends to be a real preacher and political insider for the Radical Right.
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Welcome back Joel. Your insightful comments and logical arguments are sometimes ignored by Random, et al, when they have no good answers.
I have to give Random credit though, he has courage. Even when he has no good answers he will occasionally go out on a limb and propose something preposterous to see if it will stick, such as his suggestion for sort of an apartheid Boy Scout program — separate troops for homosexuals and atheists. Wow, was that off the wall!
For a dedicated liberal to suggest such a thing seems totally out of character — kind of like Bill Clinton telling the truth, or Hugh Heffner joining the Salvation Army. However, I momentarily forgot the liberal penchant for relativism. They can often support or oppose contradictory things at the same time. When all else fails, their primary logic has a default position of, Whatever I want at the moment is OK.
Your suggestion of the Scouts using church facilities makes a lot of sense. My scout troop, 50 years ago, did just that. The church supported the Scouts because they recognized the outstanding contributions the Scouts make to our society.
On the other hand, the City of Philadelphia, (ignoring logic, ignoring the Supreme Court, ignoring what is good for the community), chooses to pursue the homosexual policy of vindictive retaliation when they don’t get their way.
OK, they have their distorted agenda and we have our good agenda. We will continue to support the Scouts with our churches because we have the best interests of the community at heart. And we will continue to resist the destructive agenda of people like the Lambda group, and other homosexuals, whose only interest is to turn the Boy Scouts into a perverted sexual playground.
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On the other hand, the City of Philadelphia, (ignoring logic, ignoring the Supreme Court, ignoring what is good for the community), chooses to pursue the homosexual policy of vindictive retaliation when they don’t get their way.
The city of Philadelphia is following the law, which says “no discrimination”. What is good for the community is that all of it’s citizens be free from discrimination. Why should the gay citizens of philly, their families, and others have their tax money taken from them and given to a private organization that actively discriminates against them? It’s immoral, illogical, and bad for the community.
The city of Philadelphia is still permitting the Boy Scouts to continue using the building. They have to pay fair cost, just like everyone else. There is no violation of any Supreme Court ruling.
The Boy Scouts went all the way to the Supreme Court to uphold their right to discriminate based on the fact that they are a private organization. To turn around and demand taxpayer support is pure hypocrisy. They made their choice, now they should live with it.
Philadelphia is the “city of brotherly love”. It’s good to see them upholding that.
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Is a rent hike like a rent party?
Or did the city say, Boy Scouts, go take a hike?
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#18: I don’t think I said that gays were pedophiles or the other way around either – because this is obviously not the case. But, I did not generalize either. The two cases I mentioned and personally know to be true – these men were both gay and pedophiles.
And you’re right about that. Pedophiles often take jobs or engage in hobbies where they will be around potential victims. Scout leaders, teachers, etc.
The Scouts would be totally in the right to step up their screening of leaders to try to weed out pedophiles and support the vigorous prosecution any man who takes advantage of a child. I assume they do this, in fact.
But that has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. Most homosexuals are not pedophiles. So the ban on homosexuals (which applies to the Scouts themselves) is not about protecting anyone, it’s about discrimination. One group of teenagers does not have access to the group that others do … clearly discriminatory.
As a private organization they have the right to do that, but they do not have the right demand the taxpayers support it.
So the ruling is right.
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There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims flying around here:
There are many gay and pedophiles involved in scouting even at the highest national levels. There was a gay leader of our pack as a kid that tried his best to get into the boys pants while camping or away from their parents. He was also the leader of our Explorer Troop later and was my Civics teacher in High School. He retired but is still, active in scouting.
How many is many? Concrete numbers please. If there are so many, then i’m sure they will soon vote to allow gays into the BSA.
If you are so sure that this guy is a pedophile trying to molest children, then why aren’t you trying to STOP HIM?? If this was for real, you’d have a story about how you tried to warn other people and blah blah blah. I would like to tell my story about this kid mikey who ate poprocks and drank a 2-liter bottle of cola….
Joel: As city officials increasingly bully the Boy Scouts and as Scouts are met with more and more unfriendliness from public sector social engineers
How is this a case of city officials bullying the scouts? You mean because they are applying their policies uniformly instead of making an exception for the BSA? Are you a public sector social engineer with your wanton mis-characterizations?
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