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Disciple, discipline, etc.
Attention: This is another post that may be abused by our unBelieving readers. But as the papal commissioner Johann Tetzel said, indulge me.
Church discipline is making a comeback. To many, Believers and unBelievers, the idea of excommunication from a church body smacks of hypocrisy and hate and generally being a Pharisee. After all, if we’re all sinners, how can we kick people out of church for sinning?
But for those who know something of formal church discipline, this is not quite what it means. It’s less about getting rid of sinners and more about getting rid of those who habitually commit public, known acts of sin and are unrepentant, or whose repentence is highly suspect. In other words, the faithful Believer is defined less by his sin and more by his reaction to it.
The Protestant reformers named three “marks by which the true church is known” – the preaching of the pure doctrine of the gospel, the pure administration of the sacraments, and the exercise of church discipline to correct faults.
Christianity Today has a series on church discipline here, where various minds apply themselves to discussing its disappearance from church life, and why it’s essential.
back to top37 Comments to “Disciple, discipline, etc.”
You can kick me out of your church any time you please. My fee is very reasonable. Travel expenses, a meal or two, and 25 cents, and I will kneel on the steps of your church and beg for re-admission in front of the cameras.
For 50 cents I will complain to the ACLU.
I’m easy and cheap.
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This was clearly a case of abuse by an unbelieving reader. I am a very bad person. I am going to exercise on my treadmill as penance.
Yesterday our power went out. That was clear evidence that God disapproves of me. Probably even qwerty agrees with that.
Though our power is back on.
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It’s much easier to get kicked out of Llamadome. One false spit and the next thing you know you’re a sweater:-)
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I read this in Harrison’s quote above: “the exercise of church discipline to correct faults.”
And here I read this: “The Protestants rejected a disciplined church of voluntary disciples, and defended a mass-church of baptized infants. Calvin did operate a limited church discipline, but through the power of stocks, whippings, mutilations, and the gallows for transgressions (such as gambling, swearing, etc.).”
Perhaps both quotes are broad enough to be accurate.
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Well excommunication used to be a condemnation to hell. I don’t think it is going to me quite the same things when it is brought back. Churches have been asking certain members to leave for all this time, that the word “excommunication” is making a revival doesn’t mean the churches are behaving any differently; it just means that romanticized zealotry is on the up-swing. They’ll be dressing up in little crusader outfit next and declaring war on the “liberal media.”
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I have never understood the concept of joining an organization, where you willingly give them the authority to punish you. Especially, given the church’s history of show trials, torture, and even putting people to death, that just seems totally crazy to me.
But that’s just me. If people want to do that, that’s their choice.
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This is a long post. It is the overview of Church Discipline from the Presbyterian Church in America’s (PCA) Book of Church Order. I am posting it so the discussion might be a bit more informed as to what the church believes rather that what people think the church believes. Discipline is more that the idea of excommunication, and always has as its goal the restoration of the erring brother or sister.
PART II
THE RULES OF DISCIPLINE
CHAPTER 27
Discipline – Its Nature, Subjects and Ends
27-1. Discipline is the exercise of authority given the Church by the Lord
Jesus Christ to instruct and guide its members and to promote its
purity and welfare.
The term has two senses:
a. the one referring to the whole government, inspection, training,
guardianship and control which the church maintains over its
members, its officers and its courts;
b. the other a restricted and technical sense, signifying judicial process.
27-2. All baptized persons, being members of the Church are subject to its
discipline and entitled to the benefits thereof.
27-3. The exercise of discipline is highly important and necessary. In its
proper usage discipline maintains:
a. the glory of God,
b. the purity of His Church,
c. the keeping and reclaiming of disobedient sinners. Discipline is
for the purpose of godliness (1 Timothy 4:7); therefore, it
demands a self-examination under Scripture.
Its ends, so far as it involves judicial action, are the rebuke of offenses, the
removal of scandal, the vindication of the honor of Christ, the promotion of the
purity and general edification of the Church, and the spiritual good of offenders
themselves.
27-4. The power which Christ has given the Church is for building up, and not
for destruction. It is to be exercised as under a dispensation of mercy and not of
wrath. As in the preaching of the Word the wicked are doctrinally separated from
the good, so by discipline the Church authoritatively separates between the holy
and the profane. In this it acts the part of a tender mother, correcting her children
for their good, that every one of them may be presented faultless in the day of the
Lord Jesus. Discipline is systematic training under the authority of God’s
Scripture. No communing or non-communing member of the Church should be
allowed to stray from the Scripture’s discipline. Therefore, teaching elders must:
a. instruct the officers in discipline,
b. instruct the congregation in discipline,
c. jointly practice it in the context of the congregation and church
courts. 88, 91
27-5 THE BOOK OF CHURCH ORDER
27-5. Scriptural law is the basis of all discipline because it is the revelation
of God’s Holy will.
Proper disciplinary principles are set forth in the Scriptures and must
be followed. They are:
a. Instruction in the Word;
b. Individual’s responsibility to admonish one another (Matthew
18:15, Galatians 6:1);
c. If the admonition is rejected, then the calling of one or more
witnesses (Matthew 18:16);
d. If rejection persists, then the Church must act through her court
unto admonition, suspension, excommunication and deposition
(See BCO 29 and 30 for further explanation).
Steps (a) through (d) must be followed in proper order for the
exercise of discipline.
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The Bible does discuss church discipline, but i admit I have a hard time understanding why “those who habitually commit public, known acts of sin and are unrepentant” would WANT to keep coming to church. They couldn’t possibly be comfortable there or value what’s going on.
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Anlir (#6):
You could have ended your comment with the first four words:
“I have never understood…”
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“They’ll be dressing up in little crusader outfit next and declaring war on the ‘liberal media.’”
What a great Halloween idea… Hey who wants to dress up like the liberal media? (And what would that look like?)
Obviously church discipline isn’t going to look like it used to. I’ve been in several churches that exercised discipline, and it usually boiled down to telling the person they could no longer attend. So they just go down the street to another church…
It’s more a matter of principle than effectiveness.
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I once was the Sunday School teacher of the unmarried adult class. There was a lady in there who kept accusing different people of “coming on” to her. Eventually the church fathers asked her to stop attending.
I wonder if she accused me? Hmm.
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Personally I’m opting for the Ananias and Sapphira model of church discipline. Let the Holy Spirit rule and we’ll just carry out his judgments (pun intended).
All kidding asside, as long as the next church down the street is willing to accept someone else’s rejects, church discipline doesn’t do much good.
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To many, Believers and unBelievers, the idea of excommunication from a church body smacks of hypocrisy and hate and generally being a Pharisee.
People are mystified by Matthew 7:6 – “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.”
It’s no coincidence that this verse appears after the section on judging.
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The failure to engage in proper church discipline is one of the greatest failures of the church over the last half dozen or so decades.
Without proper discipline all manner of heresies take hold and fester, leading to a decline in all areas.
I emphasize the “proper” above. A church must work to enlighten the siner as to the substance of teh sin and educate him/her as to why it is contrary to the greater good God has designed for him/her; and to work to aid in his/her repentance. In the event of wilfull refuse to repent, discipline such as excommunication is a necessary following step.
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For those unfamiliar with the concept of church discipline, it is based on all of scripture and summarized in Matthew 18. The entire chapter applies, but verses 15-17 outlines the procedure.
Church discipline is one of the marks of a faithful church. God gave elders the authority to acknowledge the work of salvation God has done in a person’s life by bringing them into the membership of the church. He also gave the elders the authority to discipline and remove those members who have rejected Christ. The church is for Christians, and Christians make up the church. There is no ordinary hope of salvation outside the church. Thus excommunication is a way of stating that a person’s stubborn unrepentance is evidence that they do not belong to Christ. An excommunicated person is no longer considered a Christian. He can be a friend, but he is a friend in need of the gospel. The ultimate goal in excommunication is repentance and restoration in Christ into the fellowship of the church.
It is easy to forget that there are several important steps to take before excommunication. Matthew 18 lists the steps of church discipline, which is the pattern established by the Holy Spirit to restore someone to the fellowship of the church. First, bring the matter to your brother individually, then bring the matter to the elders, then bring the matter to the congregation, then remove him from your midst. Most matters of church discipline never reach excommunication, because the LORD is gracious to restore repentant sinners.
Even when church discipline doesn’t seem to do much good, because the person just goes down the street to an unfaithful church, remember that Christ still reigns over men’s hearts. He does grant repentance. I’ve seen it happen with dear friends who were excommunicated and then returned.
One more thought: Church discipline is only for the members of the church. The session cannot exercise church discipline over mere attendants, since they have not covenanted with Christ and the church. The best the elders can do in that case is give a stern warning and send the wolves in sheep’s clothing out the door.
I’ll close with a word of warning: If you are not a member of a congregation that would lovingly correct you when you stumble and remove you if you refuse correction, then, for the good of your own soul, find a faithful congregation of believers. And don’t even consider being a solitary Christian without membership in the church.
“But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, ‘I have no need of you’; or again the head to the feet, ‘I have no need of you.’ ” — I Corinthians 12
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Church discipline has been swept under the carpet in some Churches, but its not what the Word of God tells us. As you read from Corinthians 5 below, we are told “not to eat” or “keep company with anyone who is a brother who continues in sin.
Verse 12 talks about those who are without, – those would be un-Believers, those who are “within” are Believers –
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. 1 Corinthians 5
These are HARSH words concerning Believers accepting the sinful, willful lifestyles of those who either ARE, or WANT to be members of their Churches, but still live knowingly, in an unrepentant sinful lifestyle -
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#16 Cool! I think y’all should kick each other out en masse. Be good for everybody!
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Maybe discipline’s primary purpose isn’t to kick people out of the church but to deny them the sacraments as a way of encouraging their repentance? The church doesn’t relish the idea of people being damned to hell, despite what the bigots here think. And it’s not about putting distance between us good people and that dirty person no one likes. As if the church were a middle school lunchroom. Faithful pastors want the souls under their care to be humble and obedient to their Savior.
When a church practices discipline (never, by the way, on the whim of one pastor, but as a long, drawn-out process involving many, many people), the object of that discipline should recognize that he is in a state of rebellion against God, not just on the bad side of the pastor’s opinion on a particular day.
But, thanks to our democratic mindset and our hatred of authority we aren’t able to see God’s hand in anything other people do or say any more. God only speaks to us privately, quietly, in our hearts, whispering only sweet nothings to us to comfort and encourage us. As the book said, our God is too small.
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Maybe discipline’s primary purpose isn’t to kick people out of the church but to deny them the sacraments as a way of encouraging their repentance?
So you don’t want them to repent then?
Seriously, though, I can buy grape juice and crackers at any grocery store.
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deny them the sacraments as a way of encouraging their repentance?
Oh – I think I parsed this wrong – sorry …
I always thought of the sacrements as encouraging repentence, so if you deny them …
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Spinoza,
Preparation for receiving the Lord’s Supper should involve repentance. But for those living in unrepentance, it’s one method to encourage repentance.
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Well, Spinoza, if a person really values the sacraments, that person feels the loss and wants to become reconciled with God. A person who does not value the sacraments, someone who does not understand what they are, will write a snarky little post such as yours in No. 20.
There are some people who actually want to become what Christians call the new creature in Christ. That requires discipline to overcome the old Adam. Perhaps these, too, are concepts with which you are unfamiliar just as you do not understand the need for discipline.
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Well, Spinoza, if a person really values the sacraments, that person feels the loss and wants to become reconciled with God. A person who does not value the sacraments, someone who does not understand what they are, will write a snarky little post such as yours in No. 20.
Actually, hun, I valued the sacraments so much that, at one time, I left protestantism and became a Catholic. Now THEY do sacrements right! But the entire universe is a sacrament, if you will, and if there is a God, He/She is available to anyone and needn’t be “dispensed” by a particular religious organization, especially not an icky evangelical wacko one!
There are some people who actually want to become what Christians call the new creature in Christ. That requires discipline to overcome the old Adam. Perhaps these, too, are concepts with which you are unfamiliar just as you do not understand the need for discipline.
The “old Adam” is a mythological concept that shouldn’t be given much credence, since we actually evolved and there is no such thing as a literal “fall” or literal “original sin.” Ah, I remember it well, hours with Thomas ‘a Kempis mortifying the flesh. I’m quite sure I know more about this than you could ever imagine. I now consider it to be not quite psychologically healthy. Which is not to say that I believe a 60’s version of sexuality is healthy either – I just don’t.
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I once heard the phrase “ordinance of the keys” as a catchall for deeming certain people or beliefs to be unwelcome in a fellowship.
I know of a church which embraced homosexuality and sought to be a “welcoming and affirming” fellowship. What this meant in a practical sense was the church became a platform for what Dr Laura terms “the gay agenda”. (Noticed a lot more rainbow decor in the sanctuary!)
The entire church was booted out of the convention and all their donations for missions were returned back to the “heretical” pastor and his like-minded congregants.
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26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1 Corinthians 11
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From the article: A sense of the importance of church discipline has a lot to do with the church’s sense of separation from the world.
That is a good point. The “church” has historically struggled defining exactly what separation means, which is what causes such confusion about what to discipline. There is a difference between biblical separation and the typical series of artificial traditions handed down through the decades.
These standards are adopted in an attempt to act differently than the world, and become a “peculiar” people, forgetting that sanctification is a work of God. We impose artificial constraints and then discipline those who violate them.
Christians are the only army who shoot their wounded. Because of this people are reluctant to confess their sins one to another. We are reluctant to be completely transparent about who we really are. This can only occur in an atmosphere of grace, where there is a trust that you won’t be rejected for honesty about sin. Instead, we maintain artificial standards and then shoot anyone who slips up and let’s their real personality show.
True biblical separation has to do with right doctrine and changed hearts, sinners becoming more like Christ. When a brother falls, we should restore him. If he refuses to be restored, then that is when he should be asked to leave until he comes to his senses. We should be willing to forgive 7 x 70 times. (Matt 18)
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I forgot to mention that Roger Williams was a victim of church discipline.
Much as I like and admire TJ, what he dislikes about Roger is what I admire about him. In fact, truth be told, I admire Roger in spite of the fact that he was a Christian. I consider both his beliefs and his behavior as the best example of “We shal overcome,” I know since MLK.
I do tend to get my chronologies and sequences mixed up. This is one of the many signs I am getting old, another being that I participate in this web site.
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Xion – Over 5 years ago, my husband (a professing Christian) was arrested for DUI. It was a shock to me, who didn’t even know he was drinking.
As he sat for 3 hours alone in a cell, he felt greatly ashamed & repentant, spending the time praying for forgiveness & deliverance.
Even though he had been able to hide his drinking from me (telling me the beer smell I detected at times was from non-alcoholic beer), I knew him well enough to know that he had a repentant heart. I knew that when he walked in the door that night, I needed to greet him with a loving hug, & not recrimination.
The following Sunday, during a special prayer-&-fasting time after morning service, Lee confessed to those gathered that he was an alcoholic, had been secretly drinking for a few years, & had been arrested. Several months later, he spoke at a service about how God had gotten his attention by letting him be arrested (an act of God’s mercy), had helped him through various problems related to that, & had delivered him from the desire for alcohol.
Both times, he was greeted with hugs, acceptance, & love. As one lady said, we are all sinners, it’s just that some sins get you in more trouble than others.
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Karen, your husband is blessed with a good wife and a good church.
My experience is different. Can I come to your church?
Our church disciplines only one sin: adultery, which includes looking at smut on the Internet. However, you will be shunned and asked not to serve for a myriad of offenses including shorts that are too short or listening to music with a backbeat while driving in your car. A teacher was fired for attending a Christian music festival. Another teacher was fired for wearing jeans at a supermarket on the weekend. My son was a very talented teen music leader, but was canned for not attending every service during a missions conference. My daughter was asked not to do children’s church any more because they required her to attend every service and she preferred Sunday school with her age group.
At another church in our area, a pastor friend of mine was asked to step down for disagreeing with the head pastor on grace. The head pastor taught legalism from Romans while my friend taught grace from Galatians. It got so nasty my friend resigned and started his own church which is growing and thriving in a different community. The head pastor has become vindictive, publicly renouncing my friend and is about to hold a “church discipline” ceremony in absentia against his former close friend which hasn’t even been there for months.
My question is “Where is the love?” All of this nonsense is a scourge against the cause of Christ.
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Xion – It grieves me that your church, & some others, are so legalistic & harsh, lacking in grace. But there are plenty of churches besides mine that are loving, forgiving, & gracious.
Do you have the freedom to talk about grace & forgiveness with individuals in your church? If so, how open are they to your thoughts?
BTW, sure, if you’re in the area, come to my church! (It’s in Vernon, Conn.)
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Wow, what a coincidence Karen! I work in Vernon, CT several days a week, though I live about 3 hours away. What’s the name of the church?
As for talking about grace, I am an adult Sunday School teacher at our church (off and on). Most people who take my classes appreciate it, though there are always a few contentious types. We show them grace too!
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Xion – Wow!
The name of the church is Vernon Assembly of God.
We live about 1/2 an hour away in Stafford Springs, but continue to go there because we feel it is the church home God wants us in.
(And yes, we have prayed about it.)
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Well, as you know I am not a charismatic, but I absolutely love visiting churches and worshiping in a variety of styles. If you see a big ole’ blond 6′ 4″, 270 lbs, 47 yr old snowboardin’ dude with a Hebrew Bible lumbering up the aisles, you should shout “Xion!”.
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Xion,
LOL! I’ve always wondered: Do you pronounce it in your head as “Zion” or “Christian”? It might make a difference as Karen O hollers after you in church!
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Cameron – Good point.
And, “Hey, you!” wouldn’t be polite.
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#34 I’ve always pronounced it Zion in my head. If it were Christian, I would have spelled it Xian and in that case it would be somewhat derogatory by removing Christ.
If I bring my daughter to Karen’s church, maybe she would shout, “Hail, O daughter of Zion!” Otherwise she could shout, “Hey ya big lug, down in front!”
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Hey you, you really should try to fit in a visit to Karen O’s church. That would be kind of cool!
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