When people look at us, do they see Christ?
A few weeks ago the Barna Group conducted a survey of 16- to 29-year-olds (Christians and non-Christians) to assess their impressions of Christianity. The findings, especially as Christians once again find ourselves poised to descend into the muck of national politics, ought to be troubling.
Researchers offered respondents 20 perceptions of Christians — 10 positive and 10 negative — and asked which apply. While considerable majorities perceive that Christianity has good values and principles, and is friendly, an even greater majority think it teaches the same basic ideas as other religions — and that this is a good thing. Still greater percentages of respondents, meanwhile, perceive Christianity as judgmental and hypocritical.
Lest anyone conclude that this is simply the assessment of heathens, half of the Christians surveyed say that Christianity as practiced today in the U.S. is not only judgmental and hypocritical, but too political. It’s hard to write off the opinions of the non-Christians regardless, because the average non-Christian respondent to the survey has five Christian friends, while four out of five regularly attended church themselves (probably as children) in the past.
Most disturbing is that the perception garnering greatest agreement among respondents is that Christianity means hostility to homosexuals. More than any other image, this best defines what Christianity is to young non-Christian Americans (80 percent of young Christians, meanwhile, confirm that it is an accurate perception of Christianity).
I can sense some commenters to this post already thumbing their way to Leviticus. My goal is not to provoke an argument about what Christ does or doesn’t say regarding gays. My point is that our words and actions shape how others see Christ, and a highly-respected research organization reveals that a great many young people perceive Christians not as a body of grace-filled believers, but as a crowd of angry, hypocritical politicos. It puts me in mind of a vignette in Philip Yancey’s The Jesus I Never Knew, about a woman whose life has been destroyed by drugs and prostitution. When someone asks her if she’s thought of going to a church for help, she replies: “Church! Why would I ever go there? I was already feeling terrible about myself. They’d just make me feel worse.”
Regarding the homosexuality finding, when researchers delved deeper, respondents told them that Christians not only hate the sin, but make clear their contempt for the sinner. A majority of young Christians, further, say that their churches have elevated the sin of homosexuality so that it is somehow a greater sin than others, all while failing to offer meaningful guidance about how to interact with gays in a manner reflective of Christ.
All of this — the perceptions of how Christians behave toward homosexuals as well as the general perceptions about Christian hypocrisy and mercilessness — can be summed in what the researchers say was one of the most common unprompted perceptions, that “Christianity in today’s society no longer looks like Jesus.”
We get overwrought, especially in election years, about the state of the country, and the evils of politicians (who almost always come, it seems, from one party and not the other). What if we took four years off from national politics, and devoted them instead to the politics of our own hearts? It seems that — in the eyes of young Americans, at least — many of us Christians are decidedly unchristian in our behavior.
Perhaps the silver lining in this cloud is that non-Christians seem to sense that Christ would not approve. Maybe, despite our sins of anger and hatred, despite our forgetting that we are forgiven as we forgive, and our overlooking that we are saved by grace alone, so that no man may boast — perhaps we may at the very least not sully the name of Christ in our zeal to condemn.
I’m going to try to think less about what Jesus is going to say to other sinners on judgment day, and more about what he will say to me, and to all of us who claim to represent him.



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back to top62 Comments to “When people look at us, do they see Christ?”
There are many who do not have a problem with Jesus, but many who have a problem with the church and “Christians.”
The greatest people I have ever known have been followers of Christ, but they all in their own way seem rare, precious. They have been broken, rough edges chipped off and yet they shine. At some cross section of their lives I’m sure they could have been rightly accused of being judgemental or hypocritical(can’t we all). But in wrestling with God they are no longer the selfish schemers they were and have become princes. If we miss that character development in the story–and just point out bizarre verses in Leviticus;)–they we are trying too hard to avoid the real imparative,
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Most disturbing is that the perception garnering greatest agreement among respondents is that Christianity means hostility to homosexuals.
What is disturbing about this to a Christian? Is this not exactly the message American Christendom preaches when it rails on endlessly about homosexuals tearing apart the fabric of our society?
“We think you are leading to the destruction of everything important, and we will fight tooth and nail to make sure you remain second-class citizens… but we do not dislike you.”
It is good to see, however, that not even the Christians with that mindset are so dimwitted as to believe their own disingenuousness, (“(80 percent of young Christians, meanwhile, confirm that it is an accurate perception of Christianity)”)
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“What is disturbing about this to a Christian? Is this not exactly the message American Christendom preaches…?”
Uh, that’s the whole point, dude. Tony is trying to be somewhat introspective and self-critical here. Miss nuance much?
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Christianity never appealed to me, even as a small child. I don’t remember exactly how the prejudice and attitude was formed, as I’m thinking about a time more than fifty years ago. Of my four siblings, all younger, three are religious believers. One is a fundamentalist of some sort, one belongs to an eccentric sect (a bit cult-like to my eye), and one had a “death-bed” conversion after a heart-attack, though he is still alive (recovered from his heart attack).
I grew up learning about the history of Jews and their persecution throughout history, often by Christians. Although my parents were not practicing Jews, they were uncomfortable about their identity and sent me for a little instruction in Judaism around the age of 10. I didn’t feel oppressed by it as some of the atheists here do about their Christian upbringing, but I was uninterested and uninspired by it.
When I learned something about Roger Williams around the same age, I was interested and inspired. I felt then (as I do now), here is a good man in spite of his being a Christian, particularly how he dealt with the Indians. His story was something like the fable of “Androcles and the Lion.”
I have been in churches of various sorts at various times in my life, and I have known quite a few Christians, and I had at various times read much of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. I regard Christians as varied people, and my experiences did not bring me to regard them as either bad or good in general.
Even before I knew my daughter was gay (or bi-sexual), my attitudes about homosexuals and how they were treated had changed dramatically through various experiences and observations and reading through my life. Although I am white and Jewish and not a world traveler, I have been involved with people of many races, cultures, and religious beliefs all my life. I don’t advance myself as a person of remarkable tolerance, but I am a bit of a fanatic and zealot about trying not to be a prejudiced person.
When I accidentally came across worldmagblog by accident, I realized that I had always been a little superficial in my knowledge of Christianity, and as World and its blog represented a world that was about as Christian as one is going to encounter, I should study and experience it a bit. It allowed a combination of distance and intimacy that sort of worked for me. I also began to read about Christianity quite a bit more extensively than I had in the past.
My interactions with Christians over the last few years have not led me to feel any urge to convert to being a Christian. Some of the people I encounter at wmb are very appealing; some are rather appaling. I was rather surprised by how deeply evangelical Christians cling to the idea that the Bible is inerrant, and how deeply they abhor and fear the theory of evolution. I am appalled by their fear and loathing of homosexuality, which strikes me as based in part on prejudice and a willingness to believe nonsense.
I recently ordered by interlibrary loan the complete works of Roger Williams so I will (as I have time) encounter his writing (which I will find difficult to read because of language) first hand rather than second hand. I still admire him, I think in part in spite of his being a Christian. I have somewhat similar thoughts about the contemporary writer and historian Garry Wills, a person who considers himself a Catholic in spite of Catholicism.
I am not quite sure how to end this without sounding nasty or condescending, but after several years of interaction with evangelical Christians, I admire some of you as individuals in spite of more than because of your Christianity. You may flame me as much as you want in this thread as I have started out in such a critical fashion.
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“When people look at us, do they see Christ?” Ouch! Sometimes yes and sometimes, no.
My first thought was to think “oh this is just the non believers looking for yet another excuse” but then the thought comes to my mind how as a believer of almost thirty years I still feel this judgemental attitude coming from some Christians. It does happen.
Personally I feel Christianity has become too politicized. However, I see the homosexual issue as something the left looks for to criticize us. They insist Christianity is hostile to them just because it’s taught that it’s wrong. Frankly, I’m tired of this issue taking over so many conversations here and elsewhere. And people “thumbing back to Leviticus” and other OT references, we’d all be better off if we
spent as much time learning what Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians says!
The other day I came across a little note I’ve kept in my Bible for the past 20 years. My son wrote it to me while we were in church – he was only 10 at the time. My husband and I had had a disagreement that morning before church and weren’t overly friendly with one another. My son’s note reads: “Looks like what was going on in our home has carried over here at this church – everyone looks like they’re miserable.” Now in a way that was kind of funny, but boy did it hurt! It still does when I look at that all these years later.
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Random writes:
“how deeply they (evangelical Christians) abhor and fear the theory of evolution.”
Abhor? Yes. Fear? No.
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Let’s keep in mind the age group surveyed will typically be at their rebellious peak. Is that how Mom and Dad do/did it? Then I don’t wany any part of it! It’s also the age where they think they know better, and have a strong urge to do things a new way, not weighed down by the oppressive rituals of old farts.
As far as a church response to misguided “yutes”, the best would be to simply train the youth that are inside the walls, to build up as best as possible a love for Jesus and a heart for worship. With even moderate success at that, then it’s up to the Holy Spirit to guide them. Otherwise, we run the risk of continuing the sad sight of “seeker-friendly” churches and questionable church-sponsored youth-events (Halo 3 tournaments in the church basement?).
If churches can continue to center on worship and encouraging/helping those who desire fellowship, then this other junk is just dross that will flow away. It is frustrating to see Christians beating themselves up over the perceptions of others in and out of the church. We may not be able to control perceptions but we can focus on our reason for assembling together: to worship the Lord.
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I see people that want to create the kingdom of God on earth so much, that they have lost all reason and human sensitivity. They believe that Jesus will come when the earth dies and they want so much to see Jesus that are willing to let the earth die. They are so indoctrinated into their faith that many have lost the ability to reason things out. A couple of simple examples are the bizarre belief in Noah’s Ark and insisting gay is a choice. The worst is seeing everything in black and white. If that is all you see then the slightest imperfection makes everything black. From their rhetoric, they live in a black and gloomy world. Because they feel God is on their side, they have no problem doing terrible things to other people because their “Holy Book” says it’s ok. They shouldn’t feel too bad. Muslims are worse.
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RN,
Thank you for your honest comments. I too am a Roger Williams fan (for lack of a better word). I didn’t find your comments critical in the bad sense. When you said you find some of us appealing or appalling I laughed. Great line. I have been a follower of Christ for 30 years and I find his sheep to be the same–appealing or appalling. Jesus Himself–magnificent.
As for “death bed conversions,” I was already a Christian when I had my heart attack. When I got to the point where I was about to pass out or die–not sure since I’d never had a heart attack before–I sort of had an out of body experience. The Lord’s presence was very real and very near. I was suddenly not afraid and quite at peace. It was all a blur when they announced a code blue and doctors and nurses surrounded me. But Jesus, for a few precisous moments, was right there.
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What makes this even worse is the number of Christian leaders and favorite politicians of the Religious Right who turn out to be gay. Whey the world looks at Christians, it doesn’t see Jesus.
It sees Ted Haggard ranting against the evils of gay marriage while debasing himself with a male prostitute for three years.
It sees George Bush and Dick Cheney railing against gay marriage to get the Christian vote, even though they didm’t mean a word of it, and then allowing a male prostitute advertising all over the internet, Jeff Gannon, into the White House press corps without passing any background checks, and then becoming one of Bush’s favorite “reporters” to call on. It sees the conservative and Christian press and blogs completely ignore this scandal after it’s exposed. And then it sees Jeff Gannon, the very same male prostitute, hired to be the spokesman for the International Bible Reading Association.
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VS
I will be a bit defensive her, adding to the crimes for which I deserve flaming. I think some evangelicals disagree with evolutionary theory and some abhor it.
I had a message I saved for years in which a poster here ranted about how Darwin was burning in hell, etc. That’s unglued. (That’s a rant word.)
The use of the word “Darwinists” to describe people who support evolutionary theory is cheap insulting instead of arguing, like my use of the word “unglued.”
The argument (used primarily by Solon, but also by others) that “Darwinism” produced Hitler and Nazism represents abhorrent thinking (in both senses of the world.)
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RDEAN wrote “I see people that want to create the kingdom of God on earth”
You’re right. The problem is Christians can’t expect non-Christians to “be like Christ” because they don’t even know him. We need to focus on abiding in Christ ourselves, encouraging other believers to do the same and sharing the gospel with non-believers. One example – rather than trying to boycott Disney and trying to force them to change their worldview we should focus on teaching our children how to make good choices concerning what they watch and listen to and how to share with their friends concerning the grace of God. We should never have to focus on one sin over others. If we share the law and grace the way that Christ did, this survey would probably be completely different.
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Let’s remember that Jesus told us that the world would hate us. Many of the perceptions unbelievers have are based on sterotypes & misperceptions.
Having said that, I also strongly believe that if an unbeliever is offended at our message, it had better be the message itself, & not our manner, that is the offense.
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#12: The argument that “Darwinism” produced Hitler and Nazism
Considering the evidence for evolution, the ironic part is that it did produce Hitler and Nazism as well as Christianity and Islam and Hinduism and steel and rockets and everything that man has touched. All the evidence not only supports evolution, but everything manmade is basically a product of man which means it’s a product of evolution.
#14: Let’s remember that Jesus told us that the world would hate us.
I guess he knew how Christians would turn out. Don’t confuse hate with fear. I don’t hate the Christians, but I think they are awfully scary. I wonder what Jesus would think of science? I suspect he would be on the side of common sense.
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And somethings are not misperceptions. On the matter of health insurance, transfer of title and other legal (i.e. controlled by the State not the Church) matters, how does it reflect Christianity to say no to gays and lesbians?
The typical “Christian” reply to this question is that y’all don’t want to give anyone the impression you could approve of the “lifestyle” so not approving of the legal matters makes sense. Trust me when I say, if you managed to demonstrate just a little compassion on health care etc, none of us would mistake that for approval.
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Random – When I said that yes I abhor the teaching of evolution, it is because I believe it to be a falsehood that is intentional in it’s efforts to lead people away from what I believe to be the Truth. That’s all.
Coyote Blue – I don’t believe all Christians respond (or think) in that way.
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#17: I abhor the teaching of evolution
Hopefully, you have asked your doctor if he or she believes in evolution. If they say yes, you must find a doctor who doesn’t believe. Anything else is being a hypocrite.
You know that corn and cows and many other agricultural products have been bred for maximum yield. This is another form of evolution, only we are taking the place of “natural causes”. Instead of being shaped by the environment, we are doing the shaping. Unless the animal or plant is exactly the same as it was two thousand years ago, there is some hypocritical seepage.
Some think that diseases evolve. Stick to your guns. No vaccines.
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Most disturbing is that the perception garnering greatest agreement among respondents is that Christianity means hostility to homosexuals.
Gee I wonder where they got that idea? Maybe they read WMB or somethin’ …
VS in 17 – You believe a lie taught to you by people you no doubt trust. But it is a big whopper let me tell you!
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Stick to your guns. No vaccines.
Apparently, this is actually becoming an evangelical trend:
ttp://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071018/NATIONWORLD/710180460/-1/LOCAL17
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oops – need an “h” on the front of the link above.
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Wow Tony Woodlief, your thoughts and assessment is 100% aligned with my own. Sounds like something I would have written.
The poll is about how Christianity is perceived, not what Christianity actually is. This is still valuable, but what amazes me is how wrong a vast majority of people are about what Christianity actually is.
I think it is safe to say that every non-Christian does not know what Christianity is. If they did, they would be Christian. Comments here demonstrate this in spades. Ultimately, they all believe Christianity is what Christians do.
Many Christians have this same misunderstanding. Some think the mission of the church is political, i.e. creating heaven on earth. Some think it is to go around rebuking sinners. Some think it is 5 minutes reading the “Daily Bread” in the morning or going to church on Sunday or doing penance. All of those things are self-centered. Christianity is Christ centered!
Christianity is not really about what Christians do. Christianity is about what Christ has done. Christians are merely recipients of his grace (i.e. undeserved kindness) through faith. We try to do good, with some success, but that is merely a shadow of real Christianity.
Paul summed this up best. “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” That is true Christianity. It is not a self help program. Our response should be one of gratitude and good works (Eph 2:8-10), but that is merely a reflection of what Christ has done for us. The good fruit that is produced is the visible work of God in our lives. The fact that so many look at us and see rotten fruit is a reflection of our own hearts getting in God’s way. This does not impugn true Christianity any more than a rotten tree impugns the sun.
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I think it is safe to say that every non-Christian does not know what Christianity is. If they did, they would be Christian.
Not really. Some of us non-Christians used to be Christians. The main problem is that most Christians have never actually read the bulk of the Bible. If they had, they wouldn’t be Christians. Because an honest reading of the Bible does not support the Jewish or Christian conceptions of “God” which those religions claim to find in the OT.
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Coyote Blue, I hope you are still reading messages in this thread, as I’m not sure I have your email.
Last week I announced the winners of my “Race to the Top” contest, and you are one. The details, and my reasons for choosing you as one of the winners–I think you won as one of the “loyalists” (outstanding for her “straight” commitment to heterosexuality, or something like that) are in Whirled Views of I think it was 10/17 (last week.)
I will donate $100 to your favorite charity as long as it’s accepted by IRS criteria.
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#23 ditto here – I was an evangelical prosyletizing zealot that led scores of people to conservative Christianity. The sincerity of my testimony was never called into doubt. I fail to see anything in Christian testimony here on WMB that is not familiar to my past experience.
But I discovered that 1) we evolved, 2) there was no literal Adam, 3) literal substitionary atonement is a fiction, 4) biblical studies argue against Jesus virginal conception and resurrection were invented by the church.
So, I’m not a Christian. But please don’t tell me I don’t know what Christianity is. I do!
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While I’m digging the hole for myself bigger and deeper wile making myself shallower and less thoughtful.
One of the traits I find less than appealing about “conservative Christians” as i call them is there identification of themselves with right wing conservatism. As soon as anybody questions right wing conservatism they are accused of being a “liberal” which is sort of like cotton candy discourse, if you can imagine cotton candy that is very hard and very sharp, but lacking in much nutritive value.
It’s hard to provide a brief answer to people who consider that saying “Demoncrat” speaks volumes of intellectual substance.
First, there are many types of conservatives and many types of liberals.
Second, there is a considerable amount of hypocrisy and double standards on both sides.
One point in this not very productive discussion I’ve been trying to formulate for years is that there is probably a difference between principle and ideology.
For example, an point of principle would be opposing theft. I think most “liberals” and most “conservatives” would agree on this as a principle.
However, conservatives tend to regard taxation as “theft.” (Again, there are many variations among conservatives.)
Liberals, tend to regard free enterprise, particularly big business, and particularly examples such as the behavior of Enron (a while back) and the subprime lending market (recently) as theft.
What would Jesus say? What would Roger Williams say?
I have not found the discussions on these issues at wmb particularly informing and inspiring over all, though I have seen some good moments.
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#23 Night Train “…an honest reading of the Bible does not support the Jewish or Christian conceptions of “God” which those religions claim to find in the OT.”
Case in point!
#25 Spinoza “But I discovered that 1) we evolved, 2) there was no literal Adam, 3) literal substitionary atonement is a fiction, 4) biblical studies argue against Jesus virginal conception and resurrection were invented by the church.”
Case in point, again! You didn’t “discover” anything. You simply changed your BELIEFS.
“So, I’m not a Christian. But please don’t tell me I don’t know what Christianity is. I do!”
Everyone who hates Christianity claims to know something about it. Otherwise what is there to argue about?
You may understand that belief in the resurrection is the central tenant of Christianity. What you do not understand is that it is true.
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#27 You didn’t “discover” anything. You simply changed your BELIEFS.
I “discovered” for myself the overwhelming evidence – from nature and biblical studies – that evangelical Christian theology is false.
You may understand that belief in the resurrection is the central tenant of Christianity. What you do not understand is that it is true.
I no longer believe Christianity is “true,” in a literal metaphysical sense. But I know what it is like to believe in it very deeply, i.e., to leave all for Christ (I literally did), and to want it to be true. I know a lot more than just “something about Christianity.” I know what it is like to be part of the club that thinks only those on the inside “truly” understand. Of course, that’s a typical sentiment with most cults.
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Random
Why thank you. Favorite charity, should I be provocative or kind? I’ll be kind: Native American Rights Fund.
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Exactly, Spinoza. I went through the very same things. I was “on fire” for Jesus, and led several kids in high school to the Lord. I believed deeply in the reurrected Jesus, and that he and the God of the Bible were one and the same. But Xion has the gall to tell us that we never believed in Christ, or understood Christianity.
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You know, if there were more Christians like Tony and the other Tony (Campolo), ya’ll would get a lot farther along with gay people.
As CoyoteBlue so ably pointed out, simple things like opposing health insurance and legal matters, makes life for gay people difficult, when it need not be.
Gay people have something going for them that conservative Christians don’t: the American people’s sense of decency and fairness. More and more Americans are coming around to the belief that gay people should be treated just like everyone else when it comes to benefits, legal matter, etc. As more gay people have become visible, it’s made a big difference in people’s views. It’s kind of hard to express negative attitudes and actions toward gays when your own child or sibling is gay.
Well, the times are changing. We aren’t going back to the days when gays hid in the closet and lived their lives in fear.
One hopes that Christians will get over their obsession with gays. I want to thank Christians like Tony W. and Tony C. for their efforts in that regards.
So, c’mon WorldMag readers – I know you can do better
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My impression has always been naive stubborn and incapable of thinking outside of the box. They also lack the ability to view issues from differing prespectives.
Interestingly the article states that the non-Christian population is increasing in proportion every generation. This contradicts the frequent scenario here in which the evangelicals will out populate the non-Christians with larger families.
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Interestingly the article states that the non-Christian population is increasing in proportion every generation. This contradicts the frequent scenario here in which the evangelicals will out populate the non-Christians with larger families.
Yes, that’s another silly Christian rejoinder with no basis in fact. I often see it when I state that the peak of evangelical political activism has reached its zenith, and will be less and less of a factor with every election, largely due to the increasing racial diversity of America. But Christians “rebut” me by repeating two fantasies over and over like talismans: 1, that blacks and hispanics will soon “wake up” and realize that the Dems are using them, and they’ll suddenly start voting for pro-life socially conservative pols in massive numbers and 2, that the tiny number of Quiver Full Christians are going to outbreed the tens and tens of millions of people who don’t share their concerns, values, politics, lifestyle, or religion.
They’re both fantasies, but an evangelical Christian is by definition living in a fantasy world anyway, so I really should stop being surprises that so many of them prefer these two fantasies over raw demographic and political reality.
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Mo$$$$$$t people do $$$$$$$ee con$$$$$ervative Chri$$$$$$tian American$$$$ and find it ea$$$$$$y to $$$$$$pot their real intention$$$$$ in the public $$$$$phere.
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You cannot fall away from something you don’t have. If you aren’t a Believer then you couldn’t “fall away” it would be impossible. Those spoken of in Luke 8:13 Believed for awhile, but the verse says they “FALL AWAY” you cannot fall away if you didn’t believe in the beginning.
I have read here that some have said that those who once professed to know Christ Jesus, really never believed but that simply isn’t true, the verse below proves the point that they did “for a while believe.”
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Thank you, Victoria!
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Nothing surprising in this story. A cursory reading of the Bible shows people ‘who ought to be or know better’ had a very hard time at it. Read the letters of Paul to the churches. Much of them deal with backbiting, pettiness, immorality, schisms..then go to Jesus’ evaluation of the seven churches in Revelation. A lot of hard words. A big yawn to Barna’s findings.
“Jesus would not approve.” Our hearts are a perpetual factory of idols. Funny how Jesus’ approval or disapproval mostly jives with our world views. Great caution is in order here.
As for political involvement. What a straw man! Is not what we try to cultivate here, a robust interchange of folk with differing world views, a paradigm for what we would like to see in the general society? Why should anyone be excluded or intimidated into silence? “Let Truth and Falsehood grapple in the public square!” Someone’s ideas will prevail for good or ill.
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“Someone’s ideas will prevail for good or ill.”
-from #37
This statement seems to reflect a large part of the problem. Too many Christians believe that they need to wrestle in the public square and ensure that “Christian” ideas prevail. Such thinking is entirely foreign to a gospel-centered worldview.
There is no doubt who will prevail. Christ has already secured victory for Himself and for His Church. He doesn’t need us to wrestle in the public square. He hardly benefits from having us as advocates for His “ideas.” We are to worship Him, make regular use of the means of grace, and live lives of quiet obedience. All the while we trust in Christ as the sure Redeemer of His elect. But instead of this, evangelicals want something more engaging.
Political evangelicalism should be a stench in the nostrils of any true Christian. It is methodolical, not confessional. It is man-centered, not Christ-centered. It plays on fear and doubt, rather than trusting in the sure redemption wrought by Christ for His people. In short, political evangelicalism is nearly the antithesis of the gospel. And yet theologically ignorant American evangelicals drink in that poison of political evangelicalism over and over again.
“There are many who will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord….”
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When people see me, do they see Christ?
Well, I’m a 6′ 4″ 270lb. blond Gentile for starters. I’m guessing he had black curly hair and a big nose. On top of that, I’m ornery, impatient, self-absorbed, proud, greedy, hateful, angry, and a low down dirty liar. I could go on for quite a while with these traits. All I’ve got goin’ for me is that for some reason Christ loves me. Other than that, I got nothin’!
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I just watched a History Channel documentary on the antichrist. Secular ‘theologians’ were called scholars. “Believers”, (i.e. the opposite of scholarship), were represented by such fringe voices as Benny Hinn and Ted Haggart. This is the sort of hooey that fuels a warped perception of Christianity.
This poll was about perceptions. We live in a culture driven by perception and belief. It is becoming increasingly difficult for this culture to discern between reality and imagination. There is an increased lack of civility about differences of belief. Even the mention of ‘belief’ brings guffaws, the very word being tainted, as though they believe nothing at all.
Modern secular zealots claim to know more about Christianity than even Christ’s enemies did. Modern man feels more than qualified to lecture others on how life came to be. Not being content with the natural world they pontificate on heaven and hell, the resurrection, the virgin birth and even substitutionary sacrifice. Listening to secular theologians you realize that they place more faith in their own imagination than history or eye witness testimony. This same intellectual dishonesty is extended to the knowledge of life the universe and everything.
Nevertheless, in the face of near universal ridicule, Christians should continue to strive to become more like Christ — especially me!
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XION – 39
You don’t know what Christ looked like, and neither to I. I have enjoyed your posts, but this one is rather puzzling, due to your statement:
Not all Jews have black curly hair, some have light brown, straight and red. Kind David had red hair, did you know that, and he was fair? Big noses don’t always belong to the Jews, not all Jews have big noses, anymore than the Italians all have big noses, or the Russians.
We know next to nothing about the way Christ looked. The only passage of Scripture which gives any inkling as to Christ’s appearance is in Isaiah 53.
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53
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Sorry Victoria! I was trying a little humor, but I forgot that some people do not laugh!
Just kidding again (hoo boy, I’m in trouble now). Little help please!
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XION – 42
You don’t need help with your comments, they weren’t kind or deserved.
I too love humor, but when you make comments about “big noses” and Jews, you lose whatever funny moment you thought might result from your comment –
I don’t laugh at jokes about Jews, I don’t find any humor in the way they are treated by the masses. I have lived in areas where the Jewish population far out-weighted the Gentile. When working within the medical community I met so many Jewish people who would do anything for anyone, and they care deeply. The NOSE jokes, and the comments are insulting, not to mention un-educated. I don’t want to make an enemy of you XION, but I won’t be SILENT, if you think humor = (equals) making comments directed at the Jews.
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I can’t help but ask; when Jesus performed his “miracles” did he wave his hands? Were there any magic words? Did he have stars and moons on his robes? Were they always white? Did they sparkle?
Did his hands ever glow? Was his eyes open or closed when he performed? Why didn’t he grow back any arms or legs?
As a carpenter, I always wondered why there is not a single bowl or spoon or chair made by him. He didn’t start preaching until 30. He had twenty years of making stuff. If he were the Son of God, you would think that there would be at least one item someone would have saved as a momento. We have Babe Ruth’s glove.
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Donato, maybe he wasn’t a carpenter? Read some books by Sir Laurence Gardiner for a different perspective on the carpenter claim. Also, a man named William Henry says that Jesus always used a wand when performing his miracles.
http://www.williamhenry.net/art_domme.html
Take it with a grain of salt.
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#43 Shalom!
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Tony Woodlief
Christians in MOST Evangelical Churches are eager to share the Gospel with anyone, no matter who they are. It’s not the sin which will send them to hell, lost without Christ for Eternity, what will send them to hell ….. is their NOT BELIEVING in Jesus Christ as Savior. Every single person who turns their back on Christ will never go to Heaven – The next thing is ‘turning from sin’ …… this is especially hard for some who are caught up in whatever sin makes them happy. That could be living with their girl friend/boy friend, stealing, lying, cheating, those who are married having sex with others.
The article talks a lot about homosexuality:
The above quote is old, not only is it old, but its untrue. We are affiliated with a large Church which preaches the Gospel, and makes every effort to reach the lost, whoever they are, in whatever sin they find themselves. The first thing which is paramount, is leading the person to Jesus Christ. Without knowing Christ, no one will EVER be convicted of their sin …… the Holy Spirit convicts us when we don’t obey the LORD.
It isn’t the Church who first became hostile to sin, it was God - looking back all the way to Genesis we can see that God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, but what did they do ……. they ate it anyway, and they sinned, they were cast from the garden, and were made to live an entirely different life. Cain killed Abel, and Cain reaped the results of sin –
We act today, as if sin has no repercussions, as if there is nothing that will happen when we sin. The Bible doesn’t say that, we as Born Again Christians can get away with sin. However we now have a group of people who DEMAND that their sin NOT BE considered sin, namely the homosexual, after all, they claim “they were born that way” – And if we don’t coddle them when they arrive in our Churches, they feel unloved, even though they believe they can be Christian homosexuals, and tell us so, no matter how much we try to reason through the Scriptures – it doesn’t work that way –
Now here we have another quote by the author of this article:
What Christ says about sin is everything, why would anything else have any value? If you take God the Father and God the Son, and what they say about sin out of the equation, what difference does it make what others say? NONE! ….. This is probably one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever read – What you or I think about sin isn’t the question, its what the Bible says that ends the debate – if the Bible doesn’t have the first and last word regarding sin, then why bother reading it, or believing it?
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that ends the debate – if the Bible doesn’t have the first and last word regarding sin, then why bother reading it, or believing it?
That’s a good question.
Why should worldmagblog have endless debates if there is no debate?
Which raises once again the question I often wonder about, so I will post it in Victoria Bold:
Why do people keep posting messages on this forum?
What do you think you are accomplishing? I have yet to see anyone change their mind about any significant issue.
Albert Einstein has been credited with saying:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I can’t afford to sponsor another contest, but it is quite tempting to sponsor one. The winner in of this contest would explain why their continuing posting on worldmagblog does not meet Einstein’s definition of insanity.
I realize I also meet the definition of insanity, but I am going to swear off the stuff by the end of the year.
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You could offer digital prizes Random.
I enjoy the interaction with 99.7% of the people on this blog so that’s why I keep coming back and posting. At first it was intimidating to me because I realized I’m not of the same intellectual caliber as many who participate but then I figured I’m not here to impress anyone.
I’ve learned alot on many issues from the commenters on this blog. I enjoy all the little personal stories (even if Night Train doesn’t) and I have had opinions either strengthened and sharpened or reformed by reading and considering other points of view.
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I mean virtual prizes.
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Why do people keep posting messages on this forum?
For many of us, it is an opportunity to engage intelligent people on the issues of the day. Bouncing ideas off others helps to hone one’s thoughts and hopefully to learn something in the process. Plus we develop some virtual friendships with other thinking people in a forum that is rarely available in our day to day lives.
For others, as you point out RN, it is a crusade to recruit people to one’s own position. This is true for Christians, of course, but FAR MORE for anti-Christians. Their purpose appears to be to persuade people to abandon Christianity, which at the least they say is stupid and at most is pure evil. Their tactics range from intellectual self aggrandizement to vicious ridicule.
It is easy to see why people who think similarly would gather together. My question is, “What motivates people to spend countless hours seeking out and attacking people whose beliefs differ from their own?”
For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. Prov 4:16
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#48 “explain why their continuing posting on worldmagblog does not meet Einstein’s definition of insanity”
1. Their expected results are not to change the minds of most people, but to state clearly what they believe to be true. Firstly, because it is good to say what is true, especially in response to falsehood. Secondly, because there are people reading this blog who do not post comments, but who may come to think differently as a result of what they read here.
2. One goal is learn from others who post here. This requires carrying on some kind of conversation, because as we respond to each other we restate what we mean in different ways to make a point better, or to add examples, cite an authority, etc. Even if I do not expect my statements to sway the person I respond to, they are a necessary part of furthering the conversation that lets me understand better what that person thinks.
3. In the case of some people, I agree that continued arguing would be fruitless. Most regulars here stop responding to people like qwerty or donato who seem to ignore most of the points made and simply jump back on their favorite bandwagon.
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#42 XION
“Most regulars here stop responding to people like qwerty or donato who seem to ignore most of the points made and simply jump back on their favorite bandwagon.”
I don’t know what to say to Victoria. If I knew her personally I would just stay away from her. I have thought and tried to figure out a way to tell her that she is not showing a good testimony but I can’t figure out how. I am sure she has been told but “in one ear and out the other.” Since I can’t say anything nice, I have decided not to say anything at all.
Other than that, I got nothin’ either.
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As to the reaction of Christians to evolution and homosexuality, I have been amused at the many threads here on WMB that are taken over by the “true believers” in evolution and homosexuality.
My answer. If you poke me with a stick (evolution or homosexuality) I will flinch. Now that I am back in high school playing FLINCH! I remember the rules. No more reaction to getting socked in the shoulder! (Is this sexist? A boy’s game?)
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#51: “What motivates people to spend countless hours seeking out and attacking people whose beliefs differ from their own?”
This is a great question to ask the Christians. Especially concerning evolution and gay rights. It was the Christians who tried to destroy the institution of science. It only starts with evolution, then follows the slippery slope to astronomy, biology, paleontology, geology and other sciences. To threaten the scientific foundation of this country is immoral.
Second are the gays. Except for outed church leaders and disowned children, most Christians don’t even know any gays. To say gays threaten their marriage, but not how is bearing false witness. If you are going to discriminate, at least make logical sense.
Remember, when you are pointing one finger at someone, there are three pointing back at you.
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Hmm, I don’t see Christ here. I see the Church Lady. And Mel Gibson.
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#55 It was the Christians who tried to destroy the institution of science.
Huh? You know that is false, yet you persist. This is what I was talking about back in #40. Let’s set agendas aside and speak honestly for a change.
Christians are wrong to treat homosexuality differently than any other sexual sin. It is no threat to actual marriage, since that is instituted by God between a man and woman, but it is a threat to the definition of marriage.
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#57: Christians are wrong to treat homosexuality differently than any other sexual sin.
Being gay is not a sin. You people constantly try to force your Bronze Age religion on innocent Americans. When you judge, you get judged. The problem is you assume you are right.
And let me say it again, “It only starts with evolution, then follows the slippery slope to astronomy, biology, paleontology, geology and other sciences. To threaten the scientific foundation of this country is immoral.”
You can’t pick and choose science. When you start denying entire areas of science for purely occult and mystical reasons, you are heading down the slipperly slope right back into the Bronze Age. For hundreds of years after the Bible was written, people believed that disease was caused by God or demons. Do we want to return to those dark days?
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“homosexuality … is … no threat to actual marriage, … but it is a threat to the definition of marriage.
Didn’t know you were so keen on lexical purity! Never heard of “multiple” definitions? You and yer tribe are free to keep yer own unaltered and far away from me.
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Religion is a threat to the definition of science. That is a fact.
Not a single hetro marriage can say how a validated loving relationship between two other people can affect their marriage in any way whatsoever. Much ado about nothing at all.
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Speaking of tribes, I noticed a little tiff earlier on the thread. Not that it makes any difference on anything other than interpreting scripture, But I think the word gentile is probably the most horribly misused word in the Bible. You can’t possibly understand some passages in the OT, by taking it to mean non-Israeli. I honestly do not understand why the word is ever used in the OT.
It is alomost always translated, rightly, nations. You can’t get to any other meaning with the word goy. A couple of examples:
In Gen 17:4, God said this to Abraham,
“behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father on many nations.(goy).
In Gen 25:23 this was what the LORD said to Rebekah about Jacob and Esau;
“…Two nations (goy) are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thee..”
So here is a clear example where Israel, the patriarch is called a “goy” .
Gentile, therfore cannot mean non-Israeli. It just means nation(s).
Makes no difference, other than interpretation, but that is a pretty big difference when reading passages like;
“..and thy seed shall inherit the gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited”.Is Ch 54.
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When people look at us, do they see Christ?
When I see Christians showing off how holy they are, they look to me like they have been taking some illegal drugs. They look spaced out and crazy. I don’t see Christ. What I see is people who seem to have a disease.
Random Name, your comments in #5 were the most interesting I have seen from you.
You said: I was rather surprised by how deeply evangelical Christians cling to the idea that the Bible is inerrant, and how deeply they abhor and fear the theory of evolution.
When I found this strange but interesting blog, I also was surprised by how anti-science everyone was, and even more surprised they actually believed the Bible stories I never imagined a sane person would take seriously.
What I have learned is many or most Christians think evolution is the biggest possible threat to their religion. It’s very interesting they think the survival of Christianity completely depends on evolution being false.
To me this is wonderful news. It means Christianity, which I am convinced is a terrible curse on America, that has caused massive bigotry, ignorance, and immorality, depends entirely on the denial of a proven beyond any doubt fact. This insistence of Christians that evolution must be fought constantly, the teaching of it suppressed, lies spread about it constantly, is excellent evidence Christianity is in big trouble. The denial of this proven fact has become a big business in America. For example the Discovery Institute and AnswersInGenesis exist only to spread lies about evolution. These liars for Jesus might think they are helping their religion, but lies can’t be believed forever.
I am convinced evolution is what will eventually kill Christianity. If only I could live long enough to see it completely wiped out.
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