back to top17 Comments to “Abortion: Always with us?”

1. BY Frank in Phoenix 10.23.07 AT 9:06 AM

   Kristin: Do you think it would ever be possible to have a completely abortion-free society?

   Frank: Not this side of the Second Advent. Until the consummation of time, the judgment and reconciliation of all things at Christ’s coming, we are a sinful race, and sin will always be with us. (And Ginsberg seems to be saying “abortion will always be with us” as if it’s a good thing.) But that doesn’t mean that Christians shouldn’t work to do something about it: first, in the hearts and minds of people by living and preaching the Gospel; and second, by re-criminalizing abortion. (And probably in that order.)

   Being an optimistic postmillennialist, I do think that we could see a time in history (maybe not our lifetimes, but in history) when sin and crime — including abortion — is tremendously reduced.

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2. BY Amphipolis 10.23.07 AT 9:27 AM

   I fail to see Ginsburg’s point. If a law is passed criminalizing any bad behavior, it is with the expectation that the bad behavior will take place. We don’t take down stop signs because people might run through them. Nobody is saying that making murder illegal eliminates murder. We are saying that murder is such a heinous wrong that the government should punish murderers. Justice is an end in itself. We don’t punish murderers to prevent murder; we punish murderers because they have committed murder.

   The primary pro-life objective is to show people that the fetus is a human life and as such should be respected like any other human life. Punishing abortionists would be a secondary objective. We need to keep this in mind, because our opponents will use the latter to obscure the former.

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3. BY metanoia 10.23.07 AT 9:28 AM

   Abortion may only be available to those with means, but birth control is available to pretty much anybody and much of the time it is given free in the form of condoms and now birth control to 11 year olds.

   Much of the povery that Ginsburg cites is due to irresponsible behavior. Unprotected sex is a very real part of the problem. But you can’t legislate personal responsibility. You can only create legal loopholes for irresponsibility under the guise of a non-existent privacy provision of the a subjective interpretation of the Constitution.

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4. BY Night Train 10.23.07 AT 9:28 AM

   She’s right. I’ve often made the same points. Roe most likely isn’t going anywhere, but if it were overturned, it wouldn’t be “the law of the land” for very long. Congress would never pass a nationwide ban on abortion, and several states will move quickly to legalize it.

   And gay marriage is pretty much a done deal, too.

   BTW Frank, I used to be an optimistic postie, too. Looking back, I have a hard time believing some of the things I used to believe and say. There’s no reason for optimism. If anything, we’re headed for a new dark ages.

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5. BY Frank in Phoenix 10.23.07 AT 11:21 AM

   TO THE ATTENTION OF LYNN VINCENT: Suppose WMB had a “side thread” somewhere — a daily or weekly one, perhaps — where people could take side discussions like the one I’m getting ready to launch with Night Train right now, in order not to divert the thread from its intended topic. At the main thread, a poster could say something like:

   “Night Train: Please see my post at today’s Patio thread re. optimistic postmillenialism …”

   (I suggest the name Patio as sort of a party metaphor … 8 people are in the living room talking about “A,” then 3 people swerve off onto “B,” and they take it out to the patio, which serves both dicussions much better.)

   Just a thought …

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6. BY Frank in Phoenix 10.23.07 AT 11:33 AM

   Night Train (4): BTW Frank, I used to be an optimistic postie, too. Looking back, I have a hard time believing some of the things I used to believe and say. There’s no reason for optimism. If anything, we’re headed for a new dark ages.

   Frank: From what I understand of postmillenialism, one of its characteristics is it takes the loooooooong view of history.

   Thus, while we will often see dips, setbacks … dark ages … in the short trerm, the broad, overall trajectory is one of the spread of the Gospel and the fulfillment of God’s purpose in history.

   Consider the history of Israel as portrayed in the O.T. At the start there’s paradise, then paradise lost, but with God’s promise of a redeemer and the victory of righteousness over evil. Israel suffers — nay, brings about — scores of real, historical setbacks, but the remnant carries on, and God brings about His purpose for Israel, which is to bring the Messiah to the Nations.

   We live about 2,000 years after the time of Christ. Now suppose He does not return until (strictly hypothetically, now) the year 15,976! We (God’s people, the Church, the true Israel) still have a looooooooooooooooong way to go. We will certainly not see the comsummation of history in our time, nor should we even expect/hope to. We should instead be fulfilling the great commission — in our families, in our communities, in our nations, and around the world.

   Doug Wilson once said something along these lines: Imagine some poor theology student in the year 10,000, and he’s taking a test on the early church fathers. And he’s trying to remember, “Who came first? Augustine or Van Til?” That remark really put things into perspective for me!

   A new Dark Ages? Sure. It really could happen. But God calls us to be faithful, and obey the great commission. And thus the remnant carries on into the distant future, and God’s purposes in history are fulfilled.

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7. BY lewjeffrey 10.23.07 AT 11:44 AM

   overturning roe will not stop abortion, just like any sin, it will never be come to a complete end until Christ returns.

   The hope that we have in the possibility of Roe being overturned is the hope found in the law. It creates a restraining power to lessen the influence of evil.

   Even though there may never be an abortion free society, we can at least seek to minimalize abortion as much as possible.

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8. BY Luke 10.23.07 AT 12:27 PM

   “There’s no reason for optimism. If anything, we’re headed for a new dark ages.”

   Amen!

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9. BY Anlir 10.23.07 AT 1:26 PM

   I don’t think it will ever be outlawed again. The main reason I say that is because most people have learned to live with it and moved on. They may not like it, but they aren’t enthused about making it illegal. The idea of turning doctors and women into criminals just isn’t going to fly anymore.

   Even if the Supreme Court were to overturn Roe v Wade, it would just result in a 50 state battle, where it would be legal in some states and not legal in others. Those fights could go on for decades. Even if you were to somehow outlaw it in all 50 states, you’ve still got Canada and Mexico, who will take up the slack. I predict you would see clinics sprout up just over both borders.

   You will always have your radicals, but most Americans are just plain tired of the fighting and wish people would just let it drop.

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10. BY Frank in Phoenix 10.23.07 AT 1:48 PM

    Anlir (9): … most Americans are just plain tired of the fighting and wish people would just let it drop.

    Frank: Then the people on the wrong side of this issue should stop fighting uw who are on the right side.

    

    But seriously, it’s as I’ve said for decades: The law won’t change until there’s been a broad-based heart change of Americans.

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11. BY Kristin Chapman 10.23.07 AT 2:02 PM

    Frank in Phoenix: The powers that be have conferred to weigh your suggestion about a tangent thread. Since that was the purpose behind “Whirled Views,” we aren’t going to create a new daily feature, but you can feel free to direct any thread tangents to the “Whirled Views” thread of the day.

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12. BY Frank in Phoenix 10.23.07 AT 2:14 PM

    Kristin: Makes sense to me. (Don’t know why I didn’t think of that …)

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13. BY Frank in Phoenix 10.23.07 AT 2:17 PM

    Night Train,

    Gotta love the internets!

    I did some Googlin’ for the Doug Wilson remark I cited at (6), and stumbled across this interesting discussion, “Are we the early church?” at:

    http://p207.ezboard.com/Are-we-the-early-church/fenjoyinggodnetworkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=127.topic

    Some food for thought there …

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14. BY Anlir 10.23.07 AT 2:29 PM

    Frank, you’re dreaming if you think either side is going to capitulate. It’s a fundamental disagreement that people at both ends are never going to agree on. But I think the vast majority of Americans are somewhere in the middle. They don’t like it, but they don’t want it outlawed.

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15. BY Night Train 10.23.07 AT 6:06 PM

    Thanks, Frank. Again, that’s what I used to believe. I remember when I first discovered PM by reading Marcellus Kik’s book. I think it was called Eschatology of Victory. Read all the PM books I could get my hands on, and was in love with David Chilton’s work.

    But it’s wrong. All of it. Largely because it’s based on a myth, the idea that biblical prophecies have any predictive value. They don’t.

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16. BY Xion 10.23.07 AT 9:24 PM

    So is abortion primarily an economic issue according to Ginsburg? Should we allow access to crack too if the rich are unfairly able to obtain it? What kind of socialistic thinking is this?

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17. BY Random Name 10.24.07 AT 8:40 AM

    On my optimistic days, I think we are headed for a “Mad Max” collapse of civilization. On my gloomy days, I predict the end of human civilization by 2099.

    Night Train chastises me for repeating myself. Now that he is repeating me, I don’t have to do it as much.

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