Smugness as theology
I went from atheist to believer to Christian between the ages of 16 and 29. I became a Christian in a Presbyterian church, and the resulting combination of Reformed theology and new faith made me want to set straight everyone who was not a Calvinist. I made sure to bring up the baptism of our children around my wife’s grandmother, a Baptist. I read lots of dour texts. I congratulated myself on my righteous theological precision.
I confess that I recoil from such people now — not only zealous predestination-obsessed Calvinists but all theology-besotted wagon-fixers. Perhaps this is simply projection — I see now the unkindness that was in my heart in those early years, and assume that it lurks in the hearts of some people I encounter today, in blogs and through email and sometimes in the flesh. I think I detect a stridency and smugness lingering in the throats of some who labor so strenuously to point out the errors of others. We are to speak the truth, always, but in love, no? We are to be salt, yes, but also light, remember? Perhaps it was only me who needed to be reminded of that. But maybe some others among us need to hear it, too.
The thing that gets me about the vituperation some Christians aim at the likes of Christopher Hitchens and other outspoken atheists is — and this may surprise you, given my opening brief against theology-as-fetish — well, the bad theology of it all. By grace we are saved through faith, that no man may boast. None of us has pulled himself up to salvation by dint of his intellectual or moral bootstraps. Dead in trespasses and sins, no man sees the truth.
To lord it over people who don’t share our faith, then, or to look down on them as if our exalted position has something to do with our own superiority, seems not only unkind and anti-Christian, but rooted in a misperception about the origins of faith. Christopher Hitchens is better educated than most people I know, and more articulate, and more thoughtful. But he is lost in a land of unfaith, a stranger and alien to God, and no amount of reasoning or debating will bring him into the kingdom of heaven.
We Christians, on the other hand, will gain entrance through no wisdom of our own. It’s a humbling thought, isn’t it, to know that we are saved in spite of — certainly not because of — ourselves? To know that some people with superior intelligence and reasoning capacity will not be saved? It seems that our attitudes ought to reflect this reality. We ought to proclaim the truth, yes, but in humility rather than smugness.
I had lunch a few months ago with an elderly man who was instrumental in my early theological education. When I first joined the Church he gave me scores of books from his imposing library, and fielded my questions about the Bible, and Calvinism, and the Reformation. He has imposing eyebrows, and a gruff manner, and is fond of that verse about how we are worms in the sight of God. He is the quintessential reformed American Christian. It had been years since we’d last broken bread together. I asked him what God has been teaching him, expecting an answer about holiness, or righteousness, or the importance of daily prayer (he spends over an hour a day on his knees). But he looked at me, his eyes welling up, and said, “God is teaching me that nothing I do — not one thing — is worthy. But He loves me anyway.”
I wonder what might be accomplished, were we Christians more inclined to confess our own sins than to point out the sins of others. Not to ignore wickedness in the world, but to start with the wickedness that dwells in our own hearts — to say: See? I am just like you, but I have been forgiven. To say: Let me help you with that burden, brother. To say: Here is a water that quenches all thirst.












back to top104 Comments to “Smugness as theology”
Nice try, Tony, but it’s too late for you to win one of my awards.
Seriously, I appreciate your sentiments, and your style of expressing them is easier to take then the more self-righteous style you are separating yourself from. I just plain remain in disagreement with you on your belief system.
As long as the self-righteous strain remains so widespread and visible on worldmagblog in particular and in conservative Christianity in general, the rather tepid efforts to separate themselves by those who express themselves as you do, at best only gains my tepid approval.
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So Random,
If I and so many others were to lose our smug self-righteousness you’d convert?
Tony,
Well said. Unfortunately, I remain a self-righteous, unloving person. There are temptations that continually trip me up, but none are so bad as not loving my fellow man…
Keep reminding us.
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I think many Christians–like agnostics and atheists–go through a smug period. Mine was especially ugly. And when it rears its ugly head again and again it is still quite ugly. Self-righteousness is part of human nature, not just a symptom of poor theology. Lord have mercy on us. We are straining at “truth” so hard we miss Jesus. When we try so hard to be a good Christian thinking others will be so impressed they’ll become Christians we miss the point of the cross. The only person that so impressed me that I abandoned my father’s atheism was Christ Himself.
One of our hardest lessons in life is that smugness begets only smugness.
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Paul said it best, “Knowledge puffs up.” To correct those who are wrong is probably the hardest thing in the world to know how to do, aside from correcting those who think they’re right.
I believe there’s also to be a certain aloofness from the idea that we must convert everyone. Jesus said to leave the Pharisees alone, they are blind guides, let em fall into a ditch. He told the Canaanite woman she was a dog and ignored her until she pursued more.
He didn’t seem at all concerned with His conversion stats one bit. He was confidently humble, waiting for the breaking of the hearer’s ego required for faith before He even bothered. Only a man with the Holy Spirit could pull that off.
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Would I convert?
No.
Bribes don’t work that well.
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I had a thought on a topic related to this.
Leaving aside the issue of whether “global warming” is true or not, there is a phenomenon called “carbon credits.”
Many ECs say to moderate atheists, why don’t you “speak up” against evangelical atheists instead of criticizing us for not speaking up against militant and self-righteous Christians?
The dumb idea that popped into my mind was that we should have “self-righteous credits” (need a better term) that religious posters and atheist posters can trade.
OK, needs work.
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#2 Make It Man: Thank you for your honesty. I, too, struggle with a legalistic, condescending heart. Far too quick to judge; far too slow to love. It comes from defining being a Christian by how one acts (and trying to live up to that standard). Failure comes all too quickly and often; creating a need to harden yourself even more to try again. Dear Lord, break this heart of mine … and flood it with grace, freedom … and love.
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Random,
I was not implying a bribe.
You just seemed to indicate that Christian’s self-righteousness was at least a partial barrier to belief:
The very symptom you decry is evidence of the truth of our world view… Man is sinful.
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But he is lost in a land of unfaith, a stranger and alien to God, and no amount of reasoning or debating will bring him into the kingdom of heaven.
Translation: “But he is lost in a land of reason, a stranger and alien to magic, and no amount of reasoning or debating will bring him into the kingdom of stupidity.”
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I went from atheist to believer to Christian between the ages of 16 and 29.
No REAL atheist becomes a Christian. At age 16 it’s unlikely he knew much about science, and it’s obvious he still knows almost nothing about science. Nobody goes from a real atheist to believing in Christian insanity.
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To know that some people with superior intelligence and reasoning capacity will not be saved?
Saved from what? It’s so obvious Christianity depends on this fear of an idiot god who will throw people in hell for not believing in stupidity.
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Of course Christianity could never exist without massive ignorance of simple scientific facts like evolution. Why else would Christians waste so much time lying about science and denying it?
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Not to ignore wickedness in the world, but to start with the wickedness that dwells in our own hearts
wickedness: The quality or state of being wicked; departure from the rules of the divine or the moral law; evil disposition or practices; immorality; depravity; sinfulness.
Christianity, which I am convinced was the dumbest and most harmful invention in history, depends on this disgusting myth that people are wicked. This is a lie and it’s childish to believe it.
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Qwerty,
Are you sixteen or seventeen?
Do you have Christian parents whom you hate?
Are you related to the owners of this blog?
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I like the bit about “…theology besotted wagon fixers.” One could, also, say Darwinian besotted crusaders. A pox on all of them.
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No. The self-righteousness is not the barrier to belief. It’s just an irritation.
I don’t believe because I consider Christianity a myth. As myths go, it’s not as bad as many. About on a par with atheism and “Darwinism.”
How many carbon credits would I get if I flamed qwerty, or he flamed me?
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From the thread topic: “Christopher Hitchens and other outspoken atheists”
From Roger on another thread: “Hitchens is a theist”
#14, you want to explain to WMB why you think Hitchens is a theist?
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From the Onward, Atheist Soldiers thread:
ROGER: Mr. Hitchens must believe God exists
ROGER: Clearly, Mr. Hitchens is a theist
Anyone else here want to lie about Hitchens?
Tony Woodlief of WMB calls Hitchens an atheist. Why don’t you two sort it out?
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RN,
Not sure about carbon credits; I thought we were starting to hand out self-righteous-nobody-is-right-except-me credits?
I would say Qwerty is already in the hole on that score, but then I’d have to surrender some of my own, eh?
Smugness begets smugness, sigh.
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Wonderfully stated Tony!
I struggled early on in my faith with Calvinism too. Though I was weak in faith, reformed theologians made sure to let us Baptists know we were heretics. I had to look up the word Armenian. Even within the last year, one of the WMB contributors called me a heretic. (He no longer contributes)
It has been three decades since those early years studying and teaching the Bible and have come to appreciate Reformed thought. Some of my favorite theologians are Reformed. But, Calvinism only tells half the story. It is a wonderful two-dimensional set of arguments that are air tight. However, God is not two-dimensional.
The Bible teaches both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. The Bible teaches both election and personal responsibility – “whosoever will come”. The Bible teaches both limited and general atonement – “for God so loved the WORLD” etc.
And so, I can read covenant theologians and appreciate their work and agree with them. Yet, I realize that it is only a partial view of an infinite God.
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I can be more humble than you!
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Over the years I have mellowed and I have come to realize that it is OK for Christians to disagree. There are a few fundamentals, such as belief in the resurrection, that can’t be compromised and still be Christian. However, so many other topics that we quibble about, won’t keep us from the kingdom and shouldn’t keep us from fellowship.
In necessariis unitas,
In dubiis libertas,
In omnibus autem caritas.
In essentials unity,
In doubtful things liberty,
But in all things charity.
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#22: “There are a few fundamentals, such as belief in the resurrection, that can’t be compromised and still be Christian.”
It’s too bad for your religion it depends on something that never happened, the Resurrection. It’s also too bad for your religion it depends on the denial of proven scientific facts like evolution. Anything that depends on lies to exist, can’t survive forever. Lies can be believed for a long time, but eventually all myths become extinct. The death of Christianity is inevitable. The human race sooner or later will grow up and stop believing anybody who has been decomposing for 3 days could return to life. Christians have been trying to suppress the teaching of the massive evidence for evolution. They can’t get away with this forever. Eventually education will destroy the incredible stupidity of Christianity.
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Amen and well said, Tony.
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Qwerty, you are sounding absolutely Voltairian today.
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Qwerty, in declaring the resurrected Christ bogus you join the many ordinary secular fundamentalists smitten with the fundamentalist faith in empirical science and Darwinism. It couldn’t possibly occur to you that, as both St. Paul and C.S. Lewis remarked, the “foolishness” of the resurrected Christ is real. You might reflect that some of the most astute modern scientists including Francis Collins and Charles Townes believe in the resurrected Christ.
Meanwhile, the question is what in the world are you doing on a basically Christian blog other than torturing yourself and being a rather dim-witted pest.
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#26, Francis Collins, a scientist who accepts the proven fact humans are an ape species, believes a dead decomposing human ape could return to life? If he said he believed that, I suggest he’s lying to sell more books to gullible people. If Collins is not a liar, then how does he accept both science and magic? Is there a switch in his head that he turns on to think, and turns off to believe in stupidity?
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Xion, I don’t think you looked up the word “Armenian,” because that would have simply told you that it referred to a resident of Armenia. I think the word you are looking for is “Arminian.”
Most of those earlier Baptists, btw, would have also been Calvinists as well. And certainly no Calvinist I know of denies personal responsibility.
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The science of how we all got to be here is what it is. The evidence of earth’s history is what it is. The question is, will you interpret the facts with the theories of Darwin et al., or the Bible? Random House and Qwerty, you may be intersted in checking out AnswersInGenesis.org to see another way to interpret the origins of the Universe. You are right in that it is very important as a foundation for how we think about everything else.
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Qwerty: Francis Collins, a scientist who accepts the proven fact humans are an ape species, believes a dead decomposing human ape could return to life?
Actually, Francis Collins view is that evolution is a reasonable hypothesis within the framework of Creation as set forth in Genesis. He, also, views men and women to have been created in the image of
God with the capability of reason and imagination and moral choice, rather distinct from apes. Collins is the head of the International Genome Project who believes that the genome is part of the language of God.
Qwerty, of course, in his naive and fundamentalist belief in a cosmos limited to materialistic empirical science lacks the quality of mind and imagination to understand this.
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rather distinct from apes? How is it Collins knows we are Great Apes just like the orangutans, bonobos, gorillas, and chimps, and can still say we are distinct from apes?
We are apes, and Collins knows we are apes. If Collins thinks we look like God then he must think God is an ape.
“Qwerty, of course, in his naive and fundamentalist belief in a cosmos limited to materialistic empirical science lacks the quality of mind and imagination to understand this.”
Translation: I lack the imagination to accept magic.
JoanneB: “you may be intersted in checking out AnswersInGenesis.org”
Why would I be interested in checking out known liars? Everyone knows they lie about science and scientists. Also, they claim the entire universe is 6,000 years old, so I have to question their sanity.
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“Francis Collins view is that evolution is a reasonable hypothesis within the framework of Creation as set forth in Genesis.”
Then Collins really must be a liar. Genesis is full of god-did-it and Collins, a brilliant scientist, could not possibly honestly say evolution has anything to do with god-did-it.
Collins wants to sell as many books as he can, so he has a good reason to be dishonest. If I’m wrong about his dishonesty, then there is something wrong with Collins. Either way, he’s making good money from gullible people.
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I would like to once again try to explain something I explained before, but nobody seemed to understand it.
The Bible god is an invention and this invention was a terrible mistake. Even worse is all the wishful thinking about the Bible god.
Christians, if they were willing and able to think, might want to consider how vast the universe is and how insignificant the earth is. If our planet disappeared today, that would be equivalent to one grain of sand disappearing from the Sahara desert. This is not an exaggeration. The universe really is that vast, and the earth really is a speck of almost nothing.
It really is wishful thinking that the invented Bible god would give our in the middle of nowhere planet so much special treatment, even sending a human god down here to be executed for the strange reason of saving us from something.
Christians don’t understand how insignificant humans are and how insignificant their planet is, because they have “faith”. Faith is the process of “not thinking”.
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Qwerty, you need to understand that evolution can fit well within a cosmos created by God. It doesn’t necessarily follow from the principles of evolution that the principles themselves came from the mind of God, unless, of course, one takes the metaphysical view that the cosmos is merely a material phenomenon arrived at by some vague process of natural selection via random variation, which on its face is rather implausible.
As to suggesting that Collins is a liar, this is an a crude ad hominem remark unworthy of a decent or serious mind.
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In the above I meant to say that “It doesn’t necessarily follow from the principles of evolution that the principles themselves do not come from the mind of God…
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If Collins is dishonest about his beliefs, then I would respect him more than if he was actually telling the truth. Everything he has ever said about his Christian beliefs is just nutty. If he is just making it all up just to make money, then I have to give him some credit for finding an easy way to be rich. Personally I don’t have what it takes to be so dishonest. I admire someone who is able to throw out all moral values just to make easy money. I wish I could do it myself.
But ok, let’s say Collins is an honest man. Now I have to conclude he’s nuts.
““It doesn’t necessarily follow from the principles of evolution that the principles themselves do not come from the mind of God”
I’m just wondering Solon, do you accept all the facts of evolution, including our very close relationship with chimpanzees?
I have heard this “principles of science come from God” and the “the genome is part of the language of God” many times.
The problem for people who are willing to use any excuse to justify their belief in the Magician or the Inventor, is these things are just the way the world works. For example, natural selection works for the simple reason it makes sense. DNA is something that evolved naturally. No god had to invent it.
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I would like to once again try to explain something I explained before, but nobody seemed to understand it.
It seems that you do not like waiting for their random brain events to comport with your own and you write as if you can think and others ought to, yet it seems that you only think that you are thinking. Do you cause your thoughts or are your thoughts brain events that ultimately rest on a causal chain defined by natural selection operating on worms?
Christians, if they were willing and able to think…
Do you think that you have a will that allows you to be willing or unwilling? How have you escaped your genes and so on?
…consider how vast the universe is and how insignificant the earth is.
Yet here you are, even smaller than the earth that you argue is insignificant with even smaller brain events that you want others to treat as significant enough to define a position of transcendence from which you can apparently judge God, the whole Cosmos as well as other people.
How about this, one ought to apply their own philosophy to themselves first of all and so I agree with you, the supposed information and text of symbols and signs which you write here contain knowledge of our whole world is really quite insignificant. It is, after all, small.
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Qwerty,
I have three requests:
1) Please stop derailing the discussion.
2) Please consider the comeliness of limiting repetition of the same thought or contention to something less than ten. 1 or 2 repetitions would be downright elegant, but baby steps may have to do for now.
3)Please reconsider #1.
Take care,
SG
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For example, natural selection works for the simple reason it makes sense.
Hypothetically natural selection only works to build function after the origin of self-replicating life has taken place, not before. So it can be said that natural selection cannot make sense out of nonsense. The very term is a pollution of language which attributes intelligence/”selection”/life to death by citing differential rates of death as the creative force governing all life.
DNA is something that evolved naturally. No god had to invent it.
Actually we should begin by saying that your own text evolved naturally and your own intelligence is an illusion, especially given that you have emerged from DNA and so on.
But it’s important to note exactly what you are saying in a rather unintelligent way:
(Nature’s Destiny: How the Laws of Biology
Reveal Purpose in the Universe
By Michael Denton :147-148)
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On a similar note:
(Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
By Michael Denton :337-338)
So it would seem that the technology which you rely on to think that you are thinking is far deeper and greater in its nature than anything that mankind has yet been capable of. Indeed, our technology chases after it and only proceeds when we imitate it enough to see with microscopes that it goes deeper or with telescopes that it goes farther.
Then here you are by the very small and ultimately insignificant meanderings of the brain events by which you assume a mind of the synaptic gaps by which you can make puerile arguments about magic.
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
–Arthur C. Clarke, Profiles of The Future
Ironically the impression that a physical artifact is evidence of “magic” may itself be evidence that the artifact in question is actually an instance of an intelligent mind using logic to create technology which mediates the imprint of its intelligence in physical mechanisms.
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Serious George,
Thanks for trying to get this thread back on track.
Qwerty is one of those who subscribe to the “brain event” that if someone doesn’t agree with him they either didn’t hear or understand him. So he repeats himself beyond all logic.
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In message #27, qwerty asked:
Is there a switch in his head that he turns on to think, and turns off to believe in stupidity?
That a colorful way of putting it, but I think that in effect describes how humans often behave, and have behaved throughout history.
For example, in secular movements such as the French Revolution and Communism, many people believed they were working to build a better society by killing and torturing people.
In Christianity, many Catholics and Protestants were sure they were acting as Jesus wished them to act as they killed and tortured people, sometimes for being Moslems (Crusades, for example), sometimes for being “witches” (which happened widely in Europe long before the Salem witch trials (which were carried out at by both Catholics and Protestants), and–my special favorite–for being the wrong kind of Christian.
Christianity has cleaned up its act quite a bit, but even in the Twentieth Century, the Irish in Ireland and the Greek Orthodox in Serbia have kept some of the old traditions alive.
Of course, Moslems have kept such traditions alive as well. Nothing like competition to bring out the best in people.
George Orwell referred to such thinking as “doublethink.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink
In that context, for Collins to be able to simultaneously believe in evolution and what you refer to as the “magic man” is pretty small time stuff.
Believe in the impossible
Lewis Carroll
“I can’t believe that!” said Alice.
“Can’t you?” the queen said in a pitying tone. “Try again, draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.”
Alice laughed. “There’s no use trying,” she said. “One can’t believe impossible things.”
“I dare say you haven’t had much practice,” said the queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
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In that context, for Collins to be able to simultaneously believe in evolution and what you refer to as the “magic man” is pretty small time stuff.
There’s little reason for Collins to engage in the sort of “absence of thinking” typical when people want to give themselves over to their own desires. And if we agree to philosophic naturalism then whatever he does comes naturally to him anyway, it is simply a brute fact of Nature. He may change his mind tomorrow and by some happy happenstance just happen to know the truth of his own brain events, yet his supposed rationality was always an insignificant illusion anyway.
There is little to engage in an absence of thought about given that the principles of “evolution” are seldom clearly defined and often rely on blurred imagery or naturalistic narrative instead of a more specified code such as: “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” There are few ways out of that other than willfully refusing to think words with meaning, yet there are many paths out of the hypothetical goo typical to evolution. Even a leading proponent of “evolution” like Dawkins still argues that we can and ought to somehow rebel against evolution and that we can disregard the natural selections of our own “selfish genes” when if Darwinists are to be believed one might as well try to rebel against the law of gravity as rebel against evolution. Yet he will most likley be able to imagine some path out of his own reasoning because he began with hypothetical goo that wasn’t specified in the first place because it was all images and imagination.
The simple fact is that no one really believes in the philospohic naturalism sometimes masked by the term “evolution” as the be all, end all. That is not because they willfully engage in an absence of thought in order to follow their own desires but because that philosophy clearly isn’t true. Yet on the other hand, given Darwinian reasoning one can more easily rationalize and justify following brutish and criminal desires than the “unnatural” acts of civility upon which civilization/language rests.
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I am a former fundamentalist who really believed and tried to practice what Tony says here. But as I learned this kind of belief was just wrong, it also dawned on me that a theology in which one belongs specially to the “chosen people” (with perks either in this life or the next) is inherently and irretrievably smug, no matter how thickly you try to sugar-coat it with your own claimed “unworthiness.” No doubt fundy disciples have various degrees of temperamental smugness, but even the humblest of them can’t escape if they believe the truly smug theology of evangelicalism.
To paraphrase, “It’s the theology, stupid.”
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In essentials unity,
In doubtful things liberty,
But in all things charity.
And of course, the “essentials” – wherein you think I go to Hell while you go to Heaven, simply for believing a certain way – are incredibly smug.
I’m temperamentally smug, but at least I don’t think my beliefs merit eternal reward and yours, eternal damnation.
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p.s. please no lectures about “merit” vs “grace.” It’s all semantic lunacy.
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I used to be smug. But I’ve moved past that now, and pity anyone who hasn’t {:~)
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It strikes me that the only One who got it all right was anything but smug. Confident, yes. Content, yes. But there’s no smugness in a cross.
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TJ #28 “Arminian” correct. As for Baptists, there were many flavors: General Baptists, Particular Baptists, Immersion Baptists, Free Will Baptists, Old Lights, New Lights, American, Northern, Southern and on and on.
General Baptists tended to be Arminian and Particular Baptists were Calvinistic. BTW I don’t consider myself a Baptist. I am a Christian. I just happen to attend a Baptist church for now.
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#44 How smug of you!
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The rewards for NOT believing in Jesus Christ, amount to NO REWARD, and THEY DO AMOUNT TO eternal damnation.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Corinthians 1
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Theology allow a believer to build a framework to secure his/her belief. The more tents of faith the better; which leads to a competitive race of how many angels they can imagine on a pin. Those who have the most become the most smug.
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Xion, I just “had” to comment, after I read something someone wrote on another website a few years ago. It seems this fellow was appalled at the terrible way that Arminians had been slaughtered, by the thousands, by Calvinists. No one could figure out what he was talking about, until someone realized he was confused by “Armenians.” He had confused the Turkish/Armenian conflict with Calvinism/Arminism.
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The rewards for NOT believing in Jesus Christ, amount to NO REWARD, and THEY DO AMOUNT TO eternal damnation.
Victoria, I give you credit for being honest. That’s what Christianity is all about, isn’t it? The choice is accept Jesus, or be tortured. Nice recruiting tool, the threat of torture, but the problem is it turns off normal people. People just naturally don’t like the idea of being threatened, and that what you just did with your eternal damnation threat.
To be a Christian, a person must deny science, must believe in countless impossible things, and must believe the consequences of doubting any Christian nonsense is torture. For some reason, none of this appeals to me. In fact I thank goodness I don’t have the Christian disease which is obviously a serious mental illness.
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Qwerty,
Normal people don’t like being told they deny science, don’t think or are stupid either.
That is the single most reason no one listens to you.
You use your atheism to justify the most appalling undkindness.
I know, I know, some 16th Century Christian was a twit and now anyone who believes in Christ is a torturer, blah, blah, blah . . . but you don’t have to be held to any moral code because you deny any. No morals, no hypocrisy. That my friend is why many stick with those who at least try.
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Normal people don’t like being told they deny science
Adios, then you don’t deny science? Then you accept the proven fact humans, including Jesus, are an ape species?
It’s a fact many or most Christians deny evolution, which despite what the know-nothing creationists claim, is a proven beyond any doubt fact.
What you claim is my “unkindness” is nothing more than honesty, a quality I notice many Christians lack. I congratulate Victoria for being an exception. She’s an honest Christian who tells it like it is. Her “eternal damnation” threat is exactly what Christianity depends on. Without this threat of never ending torture Christianity could never survive.
Also, evolution is most definitely the biggest threat to all religious beliefs of any religion. Darwin’s idea, which is now a proven fact, shows why the god invention was never necessary. Christians know this and that’s why they are constantly trying to suppress science education, and that’s why they are constantly lying to children about science.
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We don’t deny science, Ed/Querty, we simply deny the theory of evolution — which states that we’re simply animals (apes), that “survival of the fittest” is the “law of the land,” that everything we see today is the result of “random mutation.”
Unbelievable, we say!
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TJ #53 LOL!
But I am trying to see how Arminianism is related to evolution. Well, I think it comes down to the question of the sovereignty of mother nature vs. her free will.
It is fascinating to watch evolutionary documentaries so often use an anthropomorphic language. Nature and creatures are presented as having an evolutionary will, some mystical power that wills new creatures into existence. Mother nature sees an evolutionary deficiency and sovereignly filling it. A fin is needed and a leg becomes a fin. An ear or eye is needed and there it is.
As Ed/Qwerty has explained many times before, wolves or hippos or cows (or whatever it is this week) enjoy the water so much they eventually become whales. Mother nature nurtures her creation along to higher complexity. Of course, we gloss over the millions of years of death, disease and cruel favoritism for the fittest. Gaia answers prayers slowly and brutally, yet look how nice everything turned out. It is as though everything was created especially for us.
How convenient! It turns out that there is nothing scientific about Ed’s religion.
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When man turns his back on the POWER of God he makes a dangerous choice.
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the WISDOM of men, but in the POWER of GOD.
1 Corinthians 2
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“It is as though everything was created especially for us.”
This might explain why many Christians don’t seem to care about the environment and the extinction of other animals.
Whales did not come from hippos, but these 2 species share a common ancestor, which is a fact proven by DNA analysis.
Cetartiodactyla
In addition to DNA and protein sequences, researchers tracked the movement of transposons called SINEs in the genome (see the method at retrotransposon marker). A transposon is a DNA sequence that will occasionally make a copy of itself and insert that copy into another part of the genome. It is considered highly unlikely that SINEs will insert themselves into the exact same part of a genome by chance. The data indicate that several transposons inserted themselves at the same point in the genomes of whales, ruminants and hippos (sometimes referred to as “pseudoruminants” because although they have four-chambered stomachs like true ruminants, they do not chew the cud).
A good explanation of SINES and why they are perfect tracers of genealogy can be found in Sean Carroll’s book The Making of the Fittest, DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution.
Xion, a little education would not kill you. Why don’t you study evolution, instead of spreading lies about it.
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Victoria, you are wonderful. Please keep up the good work.
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#51/57 – Smugness Incarnate
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#30: Collins is the head of the International Genome Project who believes that the genome is part of the language of God.
Make sure you finish that. He believes that the earth is billions of years old and evolution is a fact. He may belive that evolution was guided by a supernatural being, however, he makes it clear he has no evidence to prove that as being true, he just believes it.
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“He may believe that evolution was guided by a supernatural being”
As far as I know he never said that. However he did make some idiotic statement mixing the words DNA and God.
Ever since I found out Collins allowed himself to appear on a holy roller liars for Jesus TV program that lied about evolution, I have zero respect for him. It’s obvious he will do anything for money, even support known liars.
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#62
Adding to my gerund list, I believe this is called smugging the thread.
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It’s a fact many or most Christians deny evolution, which despite what the know-nothing creationists claim….
That’s incorrect. Historical evidence shows that Christian theology has often been used to prop up the hypothetical goo typical to Darwinism because most Darwinists were Christians or Christian apostates. For instance, even “fundamentalists” supported the notion:
(The Post-Darwinian Controversies
by James Moore :72-73)
…is a proven beyond any doubt fact.
That depends on what you mean by “evolution.” Given that Darwinian theory is not just like Newtonian theory, which is why Dawkins believes one can rebel against it, a specified form of information has not been encoded in the language of mathematics and empirically verified or falsified in formations of matter. The notion of evolution was never specified conceptually to begin with, therefore those taken its illusion of conceptual specification feel that they can cite their own imaginations about the past as the equivalent of empirical evidence. It is a simple mental trick that tends to blur imagery together while neglecting logical/mathematical reasoning and empirical evidence.
Ironically if such illusions are done away with and Christian theology is stripped away from the type of arguments that Darwin used as a theologian to prop up a theory that is false in so far as it is specified and unverifiable in so far as it is not, then Darwinism is clearly falsified by the empirical evidence. That is why a critic can justly say: “Neither of the two fundamental axioms of Darwin’s macroevolutionary theory—the concept of the continuity of nature. . . and the belief that all the adaptive design of life has resulted from a blind random process—have been validated by one single empirical discovery or scientific advance since 1859.” –Michael Denton
Despite the evidence Darwinism is still being propped up by Christian theology and “panda’s thumb” type arguments: “I don’t think that God would have made the panda’s thumb like this… so I think that you should treat my theological argument like empirical evidence that natural selection create thumbs.” Negative theology is allowed in “science” to prop up a failed hypothesis, yet positive theology (”I think that God would make a thumb like this.”) is excluded by the same people who hypocritically engage in such arguments:
(Darwin’s God: Evolution and the Problem of Evil
by Cornelius G. Hunter :12-13) (Emphasis added)
It’s curious that someone like Johnathan Edwards use spiders as a metaphor for sinners in the hands of an angry God while someone a bit more prissy and effete like Darwin would simply point out that spiders are not nice, therefore God is distant or does not exist. Perhaps modern atheism has more to do with the feminization of Christianity than any new empirical evidence, certainly it’s always been known that Nature is red in tooth and claw despite its natural harmony and the music of the spheres playing in the background.
Ironically some of the organisms cited by the theologian Darwin can be advanced as evidence against his hypotheses if his theological arguments are stripped away:
(Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
By Michael Denton :223)
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This might explain why many Christians don’t seem to care about the environment and the extinction of other animals.
Historical evidence shows that is false, it seems that those who speak for the New Atheism borrow Christian values to condemn Christianity. Note that given paganism or Darwinism there is nothing wrong with things like fighting lions for sport against gladatiors or extinction, granted Nature based religions such things are just exemplars of the brutal truth.
Ironically one of the reasons that you adhere to non-pagan values that are not Nature based is the Christian view that Nature is in some sense unnatural and Christianity’s impact on Western history:
(Six Modern Myths About
Christianity & Western Civilization
By Philip J. Sampson :84-85)
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mynym, only an everything-is-magic creationist would call evolution “Darwinism”. Whenever I see the word darwinism I immediately know the writer doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
“Evolution: A Theory in Crisis” is just plain lying. Your dishonesty and/or your trust in liars proves your comments are meaningless.
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You should consider responding to the content of Mynym’s post, Qwerty. This is your chance to shine on your pet topic. You might even want to put some effort into showing how he doesn’t know what he’s talking about instead of just saying it and expecting folks to take your word for it.
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It’s obvious he will do anything for money, even support known liars.
Yet you’re once again assuming a position of transcendence, this time to make a judgment about good and evil. Even taking what you say as true, given Darwinism why shouldn’t he try to accumulate resources for his family? Isn’t DNA made of “selfish genes” or some such?
I don’t expect answers. It seems that your mind lives as a spiritual parasite on Christianity and/or some notion known in Christianity as “general revelation” or Natural Law. If separated from such things the spirit of your words dies and everything you say has no meaning/spirit. In fact, given a philosophy of naturalism one may as well say that your words are an artifact of brain parasites:
(Fatal Attraction in Rats Infected with Toxoplasma gondii
By M. Berdoy; J. P. Webster; D. W. Macdonald
Proceedings: Biological Sciences, Vol. 267, No. 1452. (Aug. 7, 2000), :1593) (Emphasis added)
The benefits of focusing on brain parasites would be that it might explain a few things about the French as well. At any rate God knows that we can’t treat a bit of language and code for what it really is, so the last thing one ought to do is read your text as such.
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Whenever I see the word darwinism I immediately know the writer doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
A conditioned reaction isn’t actual knowledge but your ignorance with respect to what Darwinism specifies isn’t necessarily my responsibility.
“Evolution: A Theory in Crisis” is just plain lying.
About what?
Your dishonesty and/or your trust in liars proves your comments are meaningless.
It’s not clear how you assume enough meaning/spirit in your language to define anything as meaningless anyway. There is no way to define meaning but by admitting to it first. It seems that there is only one way, so to speak. As to Collins he is admitting to the obvious in his own field even if he is taken in by the illusions and charlatanism typical to Darwinian reasoning in others, DNA is a code/language and therefore it operates based on abstract principles. Information is supreme and metaphorically governs the formation of things, atheists typically have a problem with the “existence” of the metaphoric and symbols and signs, yet ironically the Word of God may yet govern them. Physicists sometimes say that they seek or have come to know the Mind of God without admitting to the nature of all minds that we know. Try thinking without words, can a mind exist without language? In so far as we know logic if there is a Mind of God, then there is a Word of God.
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You might even want to put some effort into showing how he doesn’t know what he’s talking about instead of just saying it…
I wouldn’t mind if he could show that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I could be wrong. Yet if I am wrong fundamentally and he is right that matter is all that matters, then I need pay him no mind.
…and expecting folks to take your word for it.
Ironically it seems that if you take him at his word, then his words are meaningless.
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qwerty,
Why are you so angry?
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#69 SG – Mynym has clearly invented his own little world and is living happily in it. Why would Qwerty or anyone else want to step inside such a hallucinatory delusion?
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#72 Whatever. I don’t always agree w/QWERTY either, but posts 66 and 67 contain so many unjustified, ignorant, and incorrect assertions that legitimate response would require publishing a small book.
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Mynym has clearly invented his own little world and is living happily in it.
Perhaps you can join me in a world in which empirical evidence is more important than searching through Nature for opportunities to imagine stories about the past.
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Smugness as theology as the topic seems to have evolved to smugness as science.
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“Evolution: A Theory in Crisis” is just plain lying.
About what?
It’s not in crisis.
I could spend the next several days writing about why it’s crazy to say evolution is a theory in crisis. I can’t imagine why anyone would say a proven beyond any doubt fact is a theory in crisis, unless for example they were lying to defend a belief in magic.
Tell you what, I’m going to save myself some time and also make it easier for you. I’m going to cheat here and just point to some information, ok? My time is limited because I have better things to do, and also because the thought police has promised to throw me out of here as soon as technically possible.
My point here is that there is an incredible amount of evidence for evolution, far more than any one person can digest, and that it is a vital field, still growing and still producing new results. All those papers don’t get published unless they contain some new observation, a new experiment, a new test of the idea…and evolution has weathered them all.
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While I understand that the Christian world is awash in “theology-besotted wagon-fixers”, and I agree with the bulk of this article – I must confess that it seems a little too simplistic. There simply has to be a fine line. It’s easy to bash the book-absorbed Calvinist or the legalistic Baptist and then determine that the correct response is to simply focus of the light and life part.
Problem is – 1 Timothy 4:16 says, “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.” Other translations say “watch your life and your doctrine…” The emphasis is on both.
It is certainly easy to get absorbed with the doctrine part. Study the books. Go to the conferences. Grow in arrogance. But it’s also equally easy to adopt a simple-minded “life” position of “Jesus unites, but doctrine divides” or “no doctrine but Christ” which I think is equally wrong and misguided. These seem to be the very folks that are tossed to and fro by every new wind that blows their way – because they have no solid doctrinal foundation of truth. Co-Pastors divorcing because they don’t “love” each other anymore? Don’t judge! Right? (Just an example)
I think it’s possible to grow in “wisdom” AND “stature” and not lord your knowledge over others. I think we are commanded to do do both. It is tough – there is no doubt about that. The further you get away from the “life” part the more arrogant you can become. The further you get away from the “doctrine” part the more the good sounding speaker “tickles your ears” irregardless of the truth of what is being said.
How can you dig into the wickedness of your own heart if you don’t know how to find out what that is? The Bible tells us our hearts are deceitful above all things – so how do we root that sin out? By studying Scriptures. It has to be both. Some of the people I know who are the most solid in doctrine are also the ones who are getting the life part right as well.
Good thoughts, Tony.
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I’m almost half way done reading this book: “The Making of the Fittest: DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution” By Sean B. Carroll
A lot of it is technical, but mostly it’s easy to understand. Nobody could read and understand this book and still be an evolution denier. I knew the genetic evidence for evolution was powerful. I knew it was massive, but before reading this book I didn’t know how massive and how powerful it really was.
For example, there are landmarks in specific places in DNA, produced by accidental insertions of junk DNA sequences near genes. These insertion events are unique to a species and can be found in every species descended from it. For example if a species branches into 2 different species, the same insertion event in the exact same place in the DNA of these 2 species will be there, in both species, proving beyond any doubt the 2 species share a common ancestor, and a common ancestor, not a common designer, is the only possible explanation.
I suggest read the book. If you already accept the proven fact of evolution you will find this book to be very educational. If you don’t accept evolution, you get the added benefit of finding out you have been wrong all your life.
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I could spend the next several days writing about why it’s crazy to say evolution is a theory in crisis.
Only if you never specify the pollution of language known as “evolution” in the first place because then you could be talking about anything from every change that has ever happened in the Cosmos to a change in the size of bird beaks. As it is popularized in State funded channels such as PBS the term evolution is used to mean all change, as it is rather vaguely specified by biologists it means (neo)Darwinism known by natural selection operating on random mutations. It’s important to note that biologists tend to use the term random as a science stopper, a place where they stop in the chain of cause and effect, an uncaused cause. It shouldn’t be up to critics to specify the term evolution and then point out that it is a theory in crisis, yet it is common for those with the Darwinian urge to merge to avoid specification. For example, you even have trouble with the definition and specification that comes with the term Darwinism so you attempt to reduce evolution back to hypothetical goo.
How about this, what is the specified theory of evolution and how has it been encoded in the language of mathematics and verified on a par with the theory of gravity?
I can’t imagine why anyone would say a proven beyond any doubt fact is a theory in crisis, unless for example they were lying to defend a belief in magic.
You attempt to use the term magic as a stigma word in your puerile arguments, so what do you ultimately mean by it? Are you referring to magic as an illusion or power to transcend Nature? If the latter then it is little wonder that people tend to view technology that they don’t understand as a form of magic, just as Clarke points out.
Tell you what, I’m going to save myself some time and also make it easier for you. I’m going to cheat here and just point to some information, ok?
As even Myers says: “…you’re also going to get some number of false positives, because ‘evolution’ is a word used in other contexts than evolutionary biology…”
So it’s up do you to specify what you mean by the term evolution. Do you mean Darwinian evolution, a theory that only applies after the origin of life?
Myers: “Perhaps you aren’t a scientist yourself, and you really don’t want to wade through stacks of technical papers to find out what scientists say about evolution. There’s a shortcut, if you’re willing to accept the authority of professional organizations of scientists.”
If you followed his advice only a short time ago then you would have generally come to support the eugenics movement instead of rightly criticizing it for its pseudo-science and proto-Nazi tendencies. Note that the professionalization of science occurred around the time that the Darwinian creation myth was accepted and it has clearly become fused to scientists’ professional identity to the point that arguments of this structure emerge: “All scientists believe in evolution, in fact that is what defines them as scientists!” which echoes the sentiment: “I’m a professional scientist, not an amateur natural theologian.”
Yet people like PZ Myers are still amateurish natural theologians to this day with their inane “panda’s thumb” arguments and so on, to the point that one may as well read a theodicy written by some ignorant school boy. For example, in one puerile argument Myers condemned the Creator for our excretory system: “It doesn’t make sense from a design standpoint to have our reproductive and excretory systems so intimately intermingled, but it does make a heck of a lot of sense from a purely historical point of view. In a sense, reproduction is an excretory function…” (Link
Once again he’s simply imagining things about the past instead of actually predicting a trajectory of adaptation conceptually and verifying it empirically in a group of organisms. For all the talk of biologists, apparently the pseudo-science of Darwinian reasoning isn’t on a par with Newtonian reasoning so it isn’t “just like” physics and generally their hypotheses having to do with biological evolution are not an a par epistemically with the theory of gravity.
Taking Myers on some of his theological terms he seems to be looking at the empirical evidence and judging it against an abstraction in his own mind of what a good clean reproductive system would look like given the theology of a God that does not garden or get dirty. (The cold toads who set themselves up as the high priests of knowledge have always liked to keep things clean, clean!) According to Myers things are all so unclean when contrasted with the abstraction in his own head and his theological views become part of his theological justification for treating imagining things about the past on a par with empirical evidence/”fact.” Note the irony typical to the claims of charlatans like Myers who set themselves up as the Policemen of Knowledge, although we clearly don’t really yet know what is responsible for the self-organization and development of an embryo based on current empirical observations, (A morphogenetic “field”? What’s that, and where does it reside? Epigenetic processes, which are based on what natural laws?) he knows without a doubt what happened millions of years ago which “explains” every single organ that unfolds in the development of every single mammalian embryo. Not only does this little fellow supposedly know what happened millions of years ago but his supposed knowledge is a scientific fact that cannot be questioned lest all of science just crumble away while civilization collapses. His type of scientism undermines people’s faith in science as a limited pursuit of truth through systematic thought as applied to empirical evidence that’s humbly aware of some of its own myopic limitations.
Supposedly he could design a better reproductive system and it is too close to other systems, yet I wonder where he would put the excretory system in the abstraction of his own mind? Maybe Myers could put it closer to his brains and then what is already true of him metaphorically could be closer to the truth literally? Perhaps an out of the way spot like the upper leg, and just let the excrement run down it? You know that if it was there then evolution would explain that just as well as it would “explain” every other position because its supposed explanatory power is an illusion, correct? At any rate, when Myers designs an self replicating automata that can run on some plants and animal products, has teleological principles written into it as a matter of fact, self-replicates in ways that approach an infinite diversity while maintaining typological unity in a specified species that sometimes sings and dances in joy, writes Mozart, etc., perhaps then he can set himself up to judge the design of Homo sapiens. As it is one may as well imagine that his ideas have more to do with natural selection operating on the mating habits of ancient worms than any intelligent selection of his own doing.
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Note again that the biological systems that Darwinists cite in their theological arguments can often be justly advanced against the falsifiable aspects of Darwinian theory:
(The Hidden Face of God
By Gerald L. Schroeder :77-78 )
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So it’s up do you to specify what you mean by the term evolution.
Biological evolution.
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“Taking Myers on some of his theological terms”
Are you sure you want to use the name Myers and the word theology in the same sentence? Myers is a biologist, not a preacher.
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What does The Hidden Face of God have to do with biological evolution? We are talking about science here. Let’s leave God out of it.
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“If you followed his advice only a short time ago then you would have generally come to support the eugenics movement instead of rightly criticizing it for its pseudo-science and proto-Nazi tendencies.”
You’re changing the subject. We are talking about biological evolution. We are not talking about idiots who have been dead a long time.
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“the Darwinian creation myth”
It’s called “evolution”. Did you even bother to look at the tons of evidence for it? See #77.
Why don’t you read the book I recommended (see #79) and get back to me. Or get back to somebody else because I was told I’m not welcome here.
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“You attempt to use the term magic as a stigma word in your puerile arguments, so what do you ultimately mean by it?”
What should a call a belief in a supernatural creature who created people instantly out of nothing? You can call it anything you want. I call it magic.
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“Not only does this little fellow supposedly know what happened millions of years ago but his supposed knowledge is a scientific fact that cannot be questioned lest all of science just crumble away while civilization collapses.”
You call Myers a little fellow? What does that have to do with anything?
mynym, you can question anything in science all you want, but if you want to be taken seriously you’re going to need some real evidence.
Any real scientist, who found something wrong with evolution, and had strong evidence for his claim, would be instantly famous. Every scientist dreams of proving something wrong, and they do that all the time. That’s what science is all about, disproving things.
Unfortunately for the wishful thinking creationists, Myers was correct when he said “All those papers don’t get published unless they contain some new observation, a new experiment, a new test of the idea…and evolution has weathered them all.”
Even though any scientist, who could demonstrate there’s some problem with evolution, would become rich and famous, this has never happened for the simple reason there is no evidence against evolution, despite the lies of the creationists who prefer to believe in magical creation.
“what happened millions of years ago”
If you read the book I recommended in #79 you would understand how scientists can see the entire history of life in the DNA of animals and plants.
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Are you sure you want to use the name Myers and the word theology in the same sentence? Myers is a biologist, not a preacher.
Myers still relies on theological arguments, just like the amateur natural theologians that professional biologists emerged from historically. There’s nothing inherently wrong with theological arguments but Gould and Myers are hypocrites to allow their own amateurish negative theology in “science” while at the same time arguing that no one should be allowed to answer them because theology/”religion” must be kept separate from science.
You are the same type of hypocrite: “We are talking about science here. Let’s leave God out of it.” You let the negative theology of Darwin and Myers stand, yet if they are answered with positive theology then suddenly science has nothing to do with God and so on. Schroeder’s arguments is just as good as Myers’. It’s only according to some that science tends to falsify the existence of God, yet then the same people turn around and say that scientific verification/falsification is utterly impossible and totally separate, the problem for hypocrites is that if you argue that scientific falsification is possible in some sense then verification is equally possible.
It’s called “evolution”. Did you even bother to look at the tons of evidence for it? See #77.
Apparently you believe that one can assemble “tons of evidence” merely by finding references where the term evolution is used. If every time the term is used it is being used to refer to naturalistic stories that are imagined about the past then it is not a term generally defined by and supported with empirical evidence. If you used the term in that way it would mean that you just told a story about the past, perhaps a mythological narrative of naturalism that fits with the Darwinian creation myth. It might be fun to imagine things and thousands of people might do so and hundreds of others may peer review such imaginary “evidence” but it still isn’t on a par with empirical evidence and logic.
For example, many half-wits seem to like this sort of argument: “I think evolution is true because I’m being scientific right now just like gravity. I did just say the word gravity so that means I am being scientific…. and so disagreement with me is just like disagreeing with science.” Given propaganda of this sort one is supposed to begin to assume that Darwinism is “just like” gravity or some other well established knowledge/scientia. Darwinists seem very fond of shifting into “just like” argumentsinstead of dealing with the application of systematic thought and empirical evidence to mythological narratives of naturalism.
But very well, if Darwinism is “just like” physics or some other form of science that actually comports with the empirical evidence instead of either mutating to fit itself to it or forming the evidence to fit to itself, then what is the well established metric for natural selection? What is the equation for Darwinism’s most basic and foundational tenet and what falsifiable predictions can be gleaned from it? Shouldn’t such equations be learned by every student of biology? Is Darwinism “just like” a form of knowledge that is so well established by empirical evidence that any anomalies ought to be fit to the theory, at least for now? These “just like” associative arguments that Darwinists are so fond of seem to reveal that they actually can’t track and predict the destination of an adaptation in a group of organisms “just like” the trajectory of a physical object can be traced given gravity and physics, instead they are content with mere “change,” any unspecified change. What is the mathematical language that represents natural selection and makes predictions that can be falsified or verified, about as sure as gravity? Are Darwinian principles as sure as gravity and as verifiable as tracing the trajectory of an object before it is set in motion? Do Darwinists think that physicists sit around after an object comes to rest and then write an equation or perhaps a little story about how Nature selected it to be there by supposed “natural selections” operating in ways that are unverifiable? Is Darwinism on the same epistemic level as theories that make predictions and have been repeatedly tested and encoded in the precise language of mathematics or not?
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What should a call a belief in a supernatural creature who created people instantly out of nothing? You can call it anything you want. I call it magic.
Ironically, materialist’s chain of reasoning always reduces to nothing because at the end of a chain of cause and effect sits nothing, blindness, a metaphoric Blind Watchmaker, an oblivion “before” the Big Bang and so on and so forth. In contrast, at the end of teleological reasoning sits Aristotle’s unmoved Mover, an infinite Being, and infinity of ultimate Being, God and so on and so forth. You shouldn’t keep trying to make much ado about nothing because it is your own philosophy, after all.
One could just as easily describe Darwinism as “magical” or miraculous as any other creation myth on its own terms:
(Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing
The Miracles of Darwinism, Le Recherche :49)
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You call Myers a little fellow? What does that have to do with anything?
Plenty.
I’ll write about the empirical evidence and so on because that’s the important issue but it’s clear that the real reason that some people argue as they do is their psychological dynamics. For instance, in Myers’ case he will argue whatever is necessary for him to crawl back into the womb of Mommy Nature no matter what facts, logic and evidence indicate.
“…you can question anything in science all you want, but if you want to be taken seriously you’re going to need some real evidence.”
It’s ironic that you would try to place any type of burden of evidence on me given that I’m not arguing that State funded channels like PBS support a certain creation myth or that it be promulgated in schools, etc. There’s a certain irony to a demand for “real evidence” from those given to citing their own imaginations as evidence.
Any real scientist, who found something wrong with evolution, and had strong evidence for his claim, would be instantly famous.
Unfortunately it seems that natural selection operating on worms just selected for you to write a bit of excrement. Do you really believe that science is some perfect process devoid of human beings? History indicates that it is not. For example, do you suppose that a scientist with valid questions about the racial theories of Nazis would have been “instantly famous” or censored, mocked and ridiculed? If the latter, then how could such a thing come about within the perfect processes of science that naturally leads us on to progress and so on?
That’s what science is all about, disproving things.
Not exactly.
For instance, a historical example:
(Hitler’s Professors: The Part of Scholarship in
Germany’s Crimes Against the Jewish People
by Max Weinreich
(New York:The Yiddish Scientific Institute, 1946) :7) (Emphasis added)
So what is your answer to a common feature of biologism? Is it possible for philosophic naturalism to be falsified, or not?
Myers was correct when he said “All those papers don’t get published unless they contain some new observation, a new experiment, a new test of the idea…and evolution has weathered them all.”
Such drivel, it’s obvious when you have people like Myers suggesting that students not be allowed to graduate if they disagree with the Darwinian creation myth that peer review will also be abused to prop up it.
Even though any scientist, who could demonstrate there’s some problem with evolution, would become rich and famous….
Where in the world did you get that idea, Myers? You certainly did not get it from an accurate view of history. For example:
(Review: Zealous Advocates
The Case of the Midwife Toad by Arthur Koestler
Review author: Stephen Jay Gould
Science, New Series, Vol. 176, No. 4035.
(May 12, 1972), :623)
Given the combination of human nature and the nature of established organizations cases could be multiplied, yet you’re apparently naive enough to think that a creationist could come along and publish some of the empirical evidence falsifying Darwinian evolution and biologists would make them rich and famous for it or some such drivel.
…this has never happened for the simple reason there is no evidence against evolution…
It’s never happened in your own mind because you’ve apparently never bothered to read any of the critics.
If you read the book I recommended in #79…
How many books critical of Darwinism or “evolution” have you read?
If I had more time I would point out a few things about DNA and what you seem to be imagining about it but I don’t. Besides, the most important issue here is put to you in this question: “Is it possible to scientifically falsify the philosophy of (atheistic) naturalism or not?”
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mynym, there’s a lot to be said for being brief. I think you could have said the same things with much less words. I shall return later.
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“Is it possible to scientifically falsify the philosophy of (atheistic) naturalism or not?”
Not sure what that is, and I’m certain I’m not interested in it. I thought we were talking about science, not philosophy. Philosophy, like theology, is a bunch of words about nothing. You might disagree, but philosophy bores me to death.
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“If I had more time I would point out a few things about DNA and what you seem to be imagining about it but I don’t.”
You just wrote 3 very long comments and you don’t have more time? Too bad. I would have liked to have known what I was imagining.
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I would have liked to have known what I was imagining.
As you said:If you read the book I recommended in #79 you would understand how scientists can see the entire history of life in the DNA of animals and plants.
The only way one can “see” such a history is by (once again) looking through Nature for similarities and then imagining things. That is almost the epistemic equivalent of ancient creation myths and far from the theory of gravity, which is why you don’t offer any support for the claim that the theory of evolution is like the theory of gravity. Yet there is no reason for biologists’ failure to study trajectories of adaptation empirically given that the creative powers of random mutation and natural selection they imagine in history can be modeled and tested:
(The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism
by Michael J. Behe :142)
In contrast, you cite your own imagination as evidence: For example, there are landmarks in specific places in DNA, produced by accidental insertions of junk DNA sequences near genes. These insertion events are unique to a species and can be found in every species descended from it.
The only way that one can make conclusions about descent based on perceived “landmarks” is by assuming they are such markers and imagining historical scenarios based on questionable assumptions, the notion of “junk DNA” being the most questionable. Yet history shows that if a function is found then that will be incorporated in the hypothetical goo that you’re overwhelmed by just as easily as supposed “junk.” The history of science also shows that if people are allowed to cite their own imaginations as evidence then the evidence will seem quite “overwhelming” to them. In fact, it will seem that a theory based on such reasoning can never be contradicted because that is how elastic the human imagination is, not that it really cannot be contradicted with evidence or has not been. Here is an entirely too charitable summary of a form of such “reasoning” as it is commonly practiced in biology:
(Points of View
Species and Neo-Darwinism
By C. S. White; B. Michaux; D. M. Lambert
Systematic Zoology, Vol. 39, No. 4. (Dec., 1990), :400-401) (Emphasis added)
Similarly, the only observation that you require to begin imagining things is that a similarity exists. Again, there is no reason for biologists to sit around imagining things instead of demonstrating them empirically. It almost seems that they fear that foundation which they have built the Darwinian creation myth will crumble if random mutation and natural selection are put to the test.
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http://www.newsweek.com/id/62337?GT1=10450
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It’s rather ironic for those who rely on citing their own imaginations about the past as the equivalent of empirical evidence (”fact”) verifying patterns to try to set themselves up as iconoclasts who condemn all the false pattern/image recognition that is so typical to mankind. After all, they are the charlatans trying to make use of that very fact!
It’s also ironic that virtually every judgment that New Atheists make is reliant on Judeo-Christian history, including much of their skepticism. It’s as if Protestantism evolved to protest its own history, yet it seems that some protest too much. For what God was it that condemned all graven images/patterns and declared that they were just wood and stone and so on?
Christian theism undermined false pattern recognition historically, yet New Atheists try to pretend that skepticism of this type is reliant on atheism. Or they pretend that iconoclastic truths which do away with false gods and ghosts can somehow be perverted to do away with belief in the God that forbid graven images:
(God’s Undertaker: Has Science Buried God?
by John Lennox :49)
Philosophy can lead to similar conclusions, as the rather theistic Xenophanes said of the superstitions of his day: “The Ethiops say that their gods are flat-nosed and black, while the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair. Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw,
And could sculpture like men, then the horses would draw their gods
Like horses, and cattle like cattle; and each they would shape
Bodies of gods in the likeness, each kind, of their own.” Yet he also concluded that there is “One God, greatest among gods and men…” because that is the conclusion that philosophy logically leads to if one seeks the truth.
As Chesterton noted, when people stop believing in God they generally do not start believing in “nothing”/oblivion like good atheists, instead they’ll believe anything. I.e. polytheism which in modern times it can take many forms, even reptilian alien “gods” capable of transfiguration that came down from their UFOs to help build the pyramids and other wonders, etc.etc. As history shows only a small minority of atheists insist that they ultimately believe in nothing/oblivion, the general population begins to believe anything as Chesterton said. For example, leading Nazis said things like:
(The German Churches Under Hitler: Backround, Struggle, and Epilogue
by Ernst Helmreich
(Detriot: Wayne State Univ. Press, 1979) :303)
Yet generally they would fall into paganism and their association with the occult is fairly well known. For them science was the equivalent of naturalism, which turned out to be a form of Nature based paganism which led them to try to kill the “biological substance” of the Jews through which a message that condemned Nature based idolatry, superstition and false images had come.
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Mynym: As obnoxious as the late Qwerty was, he did make a good point in this thread that you failed to address in any of your following lengthy posts.
You also have a LOT of misconceptions about the state of evolutionary science, and your citation of multiple anti-evolution books as sources explains why you do.
Consider this: Darwin created his theory long before DNA was discovered. but in the 60 or so years since the discovery of DNA, science has made great advances in understanding both the genome (the arrangement of genetic material on the chromosomes) and genetics (the identity and function of individual genes.)
Every discovery in genomics and genetics has supported evolution and none have challenged it.
What Qwerty quoted in #60 is an excellent example. The odds that a SINE would appear in the same spot in the genomes of different organisms by chance is astronomical. When multiple SINEs appear in the same places, the odds against that happening by chance only increase.
That confirms Darwin’s idea of common descent. The SINEs appeared in the common ancestor of whales and hippos and other species. Once there, they propagate through successive generations.
This is confirming evidence of Darwin, and it is only one of many.
How much evidence do you need before you will admit that Darwin was right?
Unlike Qwerty, I don’t hold that evolution demands atheism. It’s entirely possible that God created the heavens and the earth and evolution was the mechanism God chose to work through to create and diversify life. Francis Collins is one very intelligent scientist who does not see a need for a conflict. Even Michael Behe, whom you cited, accepts evolution in most cases, though he holds out cases he insists must be exceptions.
But evolution does demand that the Genesis myth cannot be literally true. And those who continue to argue that it is look increasingly silly and irrelevant as the rest of the world goes on with discovery and learning.
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Back on topic, the subject of the original post reminded me of one of my favorite Christian rock songs, “Smug” by Steve Taylor.
Strike this little pose
Chin up in the air
Lips together tightly
Nostrils in a flare
Now look like you care
Very nice!
Practice in the mirror
Brushing back a tear
Very sincere
A promising career could begin right here at home
If you’ve got that smug…
That smug…
chorus:
Hey mama hey mama lookee what your little babies all have become
Hey mama hey mama don’t it ever make you wish you’d been a nun?
Vain and fickle, were we weaned on a pickle?
Is it in our blood?
Rome is burning
We’re here turning smug
Strike another pose
Power politics
Swallow their conventions
Get your power fix
We love to mud wrestle
We love to be politically Koreshed
Practice that smug
Post it like a man
One part Master Limbaugh
Two parts Madame Streisand
Now pretend you’re in a band
My, my, we’re looking smug
Very very very very
(chorus)
All you smug-starved millions in the thick of the search
Welcome to our church
Whatcha wanna solve?
We can help you evolve from merely self-righteous
To perfectly smug
Strike the proud pose of our country club brethren
Friendly as a tomb
Fragrant as the bottom of a locker-room broom
Now what’s the matter?
Hey…get off your knees…that part don’t come ’til later…
God will not be pleased…
(chorus)
Hey mama hey mama lookee what your little babies all have become…
Rome is cooking
My, we’re looking smug
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At the risk of sounding smug, I have to say that this whole article sounds smug to me. Though theologians often get a bad rap, I have met far more “to each his own” Christians in my day who suffer from an attitude of smugness. Their thoughts are simply that no one needs to correct them, and that anyone who studies the Word diligently and finds that mainstream theology differs tragically from what they find in its pages is “smug”. This would make Christ smug. He had a lot of ideas about a lot of things that the mainstream “church” in that day did not agree with. He chose to say what He thought anyway. Like it does today for those who follow in His footsteps, it gave him a bad rap.
A lot more people will like what you have to say if you keep this up, but that doesn’t make it right. I might go around saying I saw Tony Woodlief and he’s a short and chubby blonde. Since this is far from the truth, you may not appreciate it – I am not speaking truth about you. In the same way, I think God appreciates those who care enough to study the details He decided to reveal about Himself in His Word. True theolgians know they are not saved by works or their intellectual thoughts, but grace alone, so this should not be an issue with them. I’ve been a Christian for over twenty years, and hands down the smuggest people I’ve met are those that judge theologians simply because they see things differently – maybe more black and white – than most.
On the other hand, let it be said that no one has perfect theology and he who thinks he does has deceived himself. We are all equally sinners, equally incapable of pleasing God. Just don’t bash theologians simply because your theology didn’t make you a good person. Theology makes no man good – but that doesn’t mean that theology itself – the study of a perfect, holy God – isn’t good. Most Christians studying it are simply living in obedience to the principle to “meditate on the Word day and night.” You are not in a place to judge them.
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#98 and similar before – could someone please disable MYNYM’s “paste” command?
What a load of nonsense!
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Every discovery in genomics and genetics has supported evolution and none have challenged it.
The fact that you believe that you can say that shows that the term evolution is being used to mask unfalsifiable pseudo-science which made no specified predictions to begin with. Such a pattern shows up time and again in anything from the Darwinian habit of simply imagining things to cases in which critics have to try to define what was never defined in a conceptual way in the first place, e.g.:
Behe, on Amason
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What is actually observed is the principle of Genetic Entropy.
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