Ushering 20-to-30-year olds to counseling
Raising church kids in the suburbs may be setting them up for psychological distress in their 20s and 30s. A few weeks ago at a youth group from a very large church in a middle class suburb of St. Louis, I asked the following question: “What are your parents doing to you right now that will probably guarantee that you will be in counseling when you’re in your 20s and 30s?”
I knew about the nearly irreversible lacerations of divorce or the nuclear fallout when negative comments about appearance are delivered to daughters. I was shocked by the other laments. Here is just a small sample from that night.
Parents should not say, “I wish I never had.” Parents should refrain from “name calling,” telling their son that he’s “not manly enough.” The following is ushering kids right into counseling later in life: “Babying,” “over-punishing,” “not accepting their [child's] preferences” (meaning that children should be free to have different interests than parents), “putting a lease on a child”(literally), “showing favoritism with other siblings,” “living their lives through their children,” and “spoiling their kids.”
The mood in the room grew even more gloomy as students mourned “being ignored,” parents “being absent from home,” “giving up on difficult kids,” offering “negative comments about physical appearance,” fathers being “too passive,” parents “overprotecting” their kids, “pressuring to be the best among [our] peers,” “not saying ‘I love you,’” having “too high of expectations,” “constantly fighting,” girls not hearing that “[they] are beautiful.”
Once this dam broke the youth pastor had to cut it off so he could give his talk about how the Gospel addresses all of their issues related to past pain. Many hands were still up in the air. It was sad. Dr. Madeline Levin, in The Price of Privilege: How Parental Pressure and Material Advantage Are Creating a Generation of Disconnected and Unhappy Kids (2006), summarizes new national data saying, “America’s newly identified at-risk group is preteens and teens from affluent, well-educated families. In spite of their economic and social advantages, they experience among the highest rates of depression, substance abuse, anxiety disorders, somatic complaints, and unhappiness of any group of children in this country.” It seems that this is no different in churches of affluence. What happened?




Learn it! Speak it! Live it!
Special Student Discount for WORLD!








Click to Print
Include Comments










back to top82 Comments to “Ushering 20-to-30-year olds to counseling”
A few weeks ago at a youth group from a very large church in a middle class suburb of St. Louis, I asked the following question: “What are your parents doing to you right now that will probably guarantee that you will be in counseling when you’re in your 20s and 30s?”
Remember when churches and ministers, instead of using church services to invite people to publicly trash their parents, instead taught them that they should honor their father and mother?
Report comment to moderator
Perhaps these children need to be taught that their parents are not God. I’m not trying to ignore or dismiss the problems today’s youth face, but it seems to me unrealistic to expect parents to always do and say “the right thing.” It is an impossible expectation. Most of us strive for it and then realize when they grow up that we sure never achieved it and that in fact no human being could. These children will not achieve it either when they have children; even with all the counseling in the world.
Report comment to moderator
It takes some seriously internalized privilege to label privileged little kids the new “at risk youth.”
Report comment to moderator
Or maybe, instead of attacking the semantics or the premise, parents can take a moment, look inward, open themselves to the conviction of the Lord…and ask themselves, “What am I doing in the lives of my child/children that might make them offer similar answers to the same question?”
I have worked for years in my job with “at risk” poor kids and volunteered in my free time with affluent church kids. This article caught my eye because of my experience, in particular, with the well-to-do youth. It broke my heart to see the high incidence of cutting, eating disorders, premarital sex and depression among my affluent girls. These girls may be able to afford nice clothes, but those clothes are empty fillers for the void left by their absentee, distant, socialite, overly-involved-in-the-Church-for-the-sake-of-appearance parents.
Report comment to moderator
What NT said. I wonder if Christian parents will ever start pulling their kids out of church the way they have public schools for brainwashing their kids in the same way? One can only hope.
Report comment to moderator
#4 makes a good point, but…….I was thinking the same thing Bianca just posted – this is the same as the public school system and it’s not right.
It’s making life all about “me, me, me!”
Report comment to moderator
Why the h do we have youth pastors, youth groups and youth conferences anyway?
Sorry for the rant, but that “youth” emphasis in the church schtick is really a pet peeve of mine.
Report comment to moderator
And to think that Bradley is a professor at a seminary. He’s teaching future ministers, and he thinks it’s fine to use church services to invite people to publicly trash their parents? Whatever happened to churches teaching young people to honor their father and mother?
Report comment to moderator
NT, that’s in the Old Testament when a wrathful God of Law reigned. Jesus abolished the law and his grace lets us complain about our folks now.
Report comment to moderator
Thank goodness these poor children weren’t beaten by their parents when they messed up like we were – they probably wouldn’t be able to have children of their own or something rather than the horrible deep seated mental health issues
Wossies comes to mind for some reason.
Report comment to moderator
Jeez Night Train,
I know I cal Lynn a liar and find cheeky ways to imply that she uses Botox. So I’m not really one to talk, but you have some serious gripes with Anthony that maybe the two of you should work out in private emails.
The hostility that you have brought toward him personally on every thread he has posted in the last month is become annoying to read and in this case is kind of a stretch.
You have in post 8 literally repeated yourself from post 1, and that to me how you are seemingly approaching this from a pissed off, irrational perspective.
Report comment to moderator
It doesn’t seem to me that these children are necessarily trashing their parents, but are answering the question asked. They may not even be speaking about their own parents. Honoring our parents does not mean we agree with everything they say or do. It does not mean that we never question or look at what ideal parents should do. My only concern is that we are giving these young people the idea that any of us are going to be living with perfect parents or perfect people at anytime. That in turn makes us harder on ourselves when we realize that we are not perfect. We are called to be perfect as God is and we are, “in Christ”, but we are not in this world. This reality should drive our young people to Christ and the hope that is in him. It should drive them to prayer to God for themselves and each other and their parents. It should also, of course, cause us to uphold each other in other ways and to newer understanding. The expectation of being happy all the time is unreal.
Report comment to moderator
Calls to mind the old Paul Harvey cliche about being “down in the dumps” on the 29th floor.
Report comment to moderator
The only thing I can conclude is that there are fewer churches than we realize that actually follow what the Bible teaches – so many fewer that I wonder if Christians can even go to church without committing the sin of idolatry anymore.
Report comment to moderator
Worry about yourself, Luke, and stop spreading lies about me. First off, you repeat yourself over and over constantly. Second, it’s simply not true that I’ve shown hostility toward Bradley on every post of his in the last month.
Yes, I’m appalled at this guy’s playing fast and loose with the truth. I’m even more appalled that he’s not only using church services to invite young people to trash their parents, in direct contradiction to everything the Bible teaches on subject of relationships between parents and children, but he’s also proud of it.
Get a grip, Luke. Go insult Lynn, or call somebody a racist.
Report comment to moderator
It doesn’t seem to me that these children are necessarily trashing their parents, but are answering the question asked.
Was the question “What are some wonderful qualities about your parents that are under appreciated?” or was it an invitation, by a “miniser of Jesus Christ”, to flagrantly disobey the command to honor your parents?
Is it honoring your parents to discuss their faults in public when they’re not around to defend themselves, simply because a stranger asks you what you’re parents are doing that is so bad you’ll probably need counseling for it?
That’s honor? I thought Christians believe love covered a multitude of sins, and that backbiting and gossip are wrong, too. But no, backbiting, gossip, and exposing your parents’ faults publicly are now considered ways of “honoring” your parents.
Report comment to moderator
Lets take a poll! I very seriously doubt that I am the only one who has seen this pattern.
Though I like how you are defining “getting a grip.” I’m quite sure that I will have an opportunity to call Lynn a racist AND say she uses Botox in the very near future, but so far today she is only talking about John Edwards.
Report comment to moderator
So “honor” now means “not tell people about their flaws”?
Report comment to moderator
First off, generally speaking, yes, when it comes to parents, honor means not telling them about all their faults. They brought you into the world, they spent thousands of dollars and countless hours raising you, when they could’ve been spending that money on themselve or working on The Great American Novel. They chose not to do that, and instead chose to spend the time and money on you. Show them a little respect.
Second, they weren’t telling their parents about their flaws. They were telling Bradley -a guest speaker, a stranger- and a room full of other people their parents’ faults.
Report comment to moderator
For the most part, I agree with Night Train on this thread.
I think the pastor has a responsibility to give parents guidance on how to deal with their children, I don’t see how publicly soliciting complaints from the children on their parents’ is going to help anyone.
On a specific example, I’m glad that Leopold Mozart didn’t give Wolfgang the freedom to “pursue his own interests” but rather pushed to him to perform on the piano with his sister at a young age.
Report comment to moderator
And his music is playing even now on KING-FM, but what kind of a life did Wolfie have?
Report comment to moderator
HONOR our parents, that is what the LORD commanded!
Report comment to moderator
LOL
I hope he got counseling.
Report comment to moderator
If that question were posed to my children, my husband and myself would be visiting the Senior Pastor’s office first thing in the morning. A phone call would not suffice. I would call other parents to alert them to the question too.
When did ‘Youth Pastors’ or anyone else get the idea that they have a right to extract personal information from children. It’s a sly way of getting children to ‘gossip’ about their parents, . . perhaps not realizing they were doing it. There are many adults who want nothing more than to delve into the lives of other peoples children. I have witnessed this first hand, and its not ethical, nor is it Biblical.
Parents aren’t perfect, there isn’t a parent in the world who hasn’t made mistakes. We are to ‘honor our parents’ not find public ways to find fault with them.
Kids have ‘grip’ sessions with their friends, complaining they can’t stay out late enough, to many chores, not enough freedom, etc., etc.
Counseling has become a way of life for many people, adults and kids. No one has ever had a perfect life, some have had a hard life. I have observed some whom I grew up with, who were the most deprived, (emotionally, financially) end up better than some who had much more.
Night Train said it very well in post 8. I don’t agree with you to often NT but on this, you are RIGHT. I’m surprised that a ‘professor’ would pull such a trick on kids, and think nothing of it, then put it up here as a TOPIC.
Report comment to moderator
It was reported a few years ago that a Jr. High was doing the same sort of questions. As I remember the parents were very angry that the public schools were trying to get any information they could from their students.
Report comment to moderator
“the Gospel addresses all of their issues related to past pain”
I have a real problem with this. The point of the Gospel is NOT primarily to make us feel better about our past or anything else. Telling kids this just doesn’t ground them the way they need to be grounded. That’s how we lost Night Train.
Report comment to moderator
No, that’s NOT how you lost Night Train.
And you mean this song isn’t true?
But let’s stay on topic, please. Worry about my salvation, if you wish, on Whirled Views. But on here let’s focus on Bradley’s strange “interpretaton” of the fifth commandment.
Report comment to moderator
Teaching mysticism isn’t the way to avoid therapy, but the way to “ensure” therapy will be needed. Teach children to “pray” and tell them that will get help from Heaven, IF they are worthy and then when it doesn’t happen, they will believe they are not even loved by the supernatural.
You have to teach children to face problems head on.
Another huge problem is parents who try to keep their children “innocent” and “protect” them from the evils of the world. What you end up with is an ignorant “victim”. No one admires “dumb”.
People need to be realistic.
Report comment to moderator
I found this very informative. As I said earlier, I had read about verbal questions which teachers ask their students, which are encouraged to start discussion within the classroom.
Report comment to moderator
How did we lose Night Train?
Report comment to moderator
I have no idea what he’s talking about. But this isn’t the thread for talking about me. Let’s try to stay on topic.
Report comment to moderator
Oh, you know what he’s talking about.
Report comment to moderator
Night Train: I have no idea what he’s talking about.
TRR: Oh, you know what he’s talking about.
Is this still the regular World on the Web, or did it somehow mutate into Bizarro World on the Web?
Report comment to moderator
I agree. This is about the fifth commandment, not anyone’s salvation. What’s interesting to me is that Night Train thinks more biblically than a lot of Christians on wow.
Report comment to moderator
Just looking at that book makes my skin crawl and makes me want to break something.
Report comment to moderator
NT,
He was referring to Christendom “losing you” to, less mainstream belief systems, shall we say. Had I emphasized the “DID” more it might have been apparent that I still want to know what caused you to reject Christianity while maintaining a belief in a God, as I asked yesterday.
I believed that it was apparent to you that that was what he was referring to, but that you wished to avoid the question.
Report comment to moderator
Anyhoo, I don’t see this kind of stuff in the church being any different than public school. I’m sick of it.
Report comment to moderator
It sounds to me like the question was a well-intended but unwise way to introduce the youth pastor’s topic, “how the Gospel addresses all of their issues related to past pain.” Instead of just having the youth pastor start talking in generalities about issues they might be dealing with, or guessing what the issues might be, Bradley solicited actual issues that kids in that group felt they had to deal with.
Since Bradley doesn’t tell what the youth pastor actually said, I don’t know what overall impression the youth were likely left with regarding their issues. It sounds like it hadn’t occurred to Bradley that his question would set off such an outpouring of unhappiness, which of course spread as each person heard others’ complaints and thought about his/her own problems.
I can’t say the complaints surprise me. I’ve heard since I was young that having stuff doesn’t make anyone happy, because no matter how much you have you generally want more. No doubt there are kids there whose parents do pressure them unduly in certain areas, or who give them plenty of stuff but not time and attention, or who let them do whatever they want not realizing that what they need is boundaries. I don’t know that their problems are any worse than those of a group of young people in a less affluent community, but they have perhaps been raised to have higher expectations (of themselves, of being able to find happiness, etc), so their problems can seem worse to them in comparison.
Report comment to moderator
I read this post looking and looking for the tongue-in-cheek ending to show that the leaders turned it around so the kids got a lesson about honoring and appreciating their parents. I mean bringing up the idea of something “guaranteed” to send them to counseling almost pleads for that sort of “get real, kids, and we’re sorry we brought this up.”
I do think it’s helpful for adults to help teens learn to communicate with their parents. When I was 19 or 20 and told my youth pastor that I still had a 10:30 bedtime (Mom had told my sister that I would have it as long as I lived in her house, and by 20 I had saved enough to move out), he shouldn’t have acted outraged and shocked, but he shouldn’t have acted as though it was “normal” either (as he did); he should have helped me figure out how to respectfully tell my mom that I was working, paying rent, being a responsible citizen in the outside world, and doing the housework, and simply didn’t need to be treated like a child anymore. Was that something for which I should need counseling? No, but I did need to learn how to communicate with my mother, and it took me a good many more years before I had the courage to be an adult with her.
One-on-one discussions like that with young people can be helpful. Public lists of gripes are not. I had a professor in college who seemed to have as her goal to get most or all of her students into counseling. Bad idea, but young people are vulnerable to this concept that most or all people need counseling and that most or all parents mess up their children’s lives.
Report comment to moderator
One can’t help but wonder if the answer to the question is “sending the kids to youth group”. Speaking strictly from experience, the youth group at a former church did little to encourage parental authority and in many ways usurped it (such as through building group identity activities (such as encouraging the “kids” to all sit together in the service rather than with their parents, showing movies with objectionable material, having discussions that were about feelings than about substance, and doing little to break up cliques).
I do agree that it is typical of the day that parents abdicate their responsibilities to others – but in the church, one would think that the demand for parental involvement would come from the youth program.
Report comment to moderator
He was referring to Christendom “losing you” to, less mainstream belief systems, shall we say. Had I emphasized the “DID” more it might have been apparent that I still want to know what caused you to reject Christianity while maintaining a belief in a God, as I asked yesterday.
I believed that it was apparent to you that that was what he was referring to, but that you wished to avoid the question.
I KNOW what he meant by “lost Night Train”. And you know very well that I know what he meant by that. But he didn’t just say “we lost NT”. Here’s what he said:
I have no idea what he’s referring to by “that”. THAT was your question, and that’s the question I answered. And when you replied, it wasn’t obvious you were using sarcasm, (especially since I DON’T know what he’s referring to), and I assumed you’d fallen into the bad WoW habit of sloppy reading.
Now, can we please get back to the topic at hand?
Report comment to moderator
The scary thing is, I know for a fact that churches more conservative than that large church in St. Louis are employing tactics like this. And the kids behave reprehensibly. That’s why I say, where the heck do we go? It’s getting so that churches that take biblical and covenantal living and thinking seriously are cults. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but it really isn’t.
Report comment to moderator
I wasn’t using sarcasm. I was too brief, though, which allowed for misunderstanding.
I do think he was assuming too much about you and your spiritual journey. I tried not to. That’s why my question started with “how”, and as I said, I was thinking when I wrote it, the “did” was important. It was meant in part as an invitation for you to tell us yourself, but if you don’t want to, that’s OK.
Report comment to moderator
Bianca,
“SEEM like cults to most people”, not “are cults”.
Report comment to moderator
Yeah, I guess, but you get the idea.
Report comment to moderator
I guess what gets me is that this is such a flagrant violation of the commandment to honor your parents, and yet Bradley felt absolutely no compunctions about doing it, the host youth pastor had no problem and didn’t rebuke him, none of the kids said “Hey! You can’t talk about my parents like that!”, none of the parents evidently complained about this outrage, WoW editors have no problem with it, and, judging by the paltry response, most WoW readers don’t have a problem with it, either.
Report comment to moderator
It’s just further evidence that Western Civilization is near death, and Christianity played a big role in its fatal sickness.
Report comment to moderator
I know, I know – totally. We’re in deep kimchi.
And even for kids who are respectful, someone talking to youth like that plants doubts in the kids minds – well, our parents aren’t perfect, they’re sinners, so maybe the guy has a point. And after all, he does have a college degree, he’s handsome, looks nice in a suit, I’m friends with his kids, yada yada.
Report comment to moderator
47 – Well, I know you don’t agree, but I’d say that it’s not Christianity itself that has played a big role, but perversions of Christianity that has. The Christianity in our culture today has nothing to do with the Christianity that our founding fathers believed or even Christianity practiced in the South before Lincoln’s war. Those men loved Deuteronomy and the rest of the law of God (The whole Bible!) and knew a free country couldn’t be governed without it. I’m glad they don’t have to see what all their work, sacrifice and pain has come to.
Report comment to moderator
How naive can you get. You ask an open ended question inviting children to complain about their parents and you expect it to be a short day????
No matter what social economic background kids will complain. Its what kids do.
The real question is the degree of validity. Do suburbia kids have the same “real” complaints or problems as kids from the projects? In most cases no. A simple solution, just tell them “life’s not fair, get used to it” or any other cliche ridden flippant line. Once you’ve cut out the whiners you can focus on the serious problems kids encounter.
Report comment to moderator
But kids’ problems are their parents’ responsibility – not the Church’s. This is politically incorrect to say, but the Church’s main job is to preach to and teach men, husbands and fathers – not women, not wives, not mothers, not preschoolers, not junior highers, not highschoolers – men. And then the men are equipped to teach their families. Too many churches have all these programs for women and children, so we shouldn’t be surprised that the Church has all the theological and practical problems it has.
If this sounds twisted, it’s because the Church has been this way for so long, we’re used to it.
No elder or anyone besides my husband or me has the duty or the right to discipline my child. That’s our job as a family.
Report comment to moderator
Yeah, what ever happened to the idea that “children should be seen, but not heard”? Those were the good old days. Not!
Boy, I sure wish someone had asked me the question when I was a teenager. Maybe I would have spoken up and told them about getting abused every day for 17 years.
I find the lack of empathy for teenagers on here to be simply appalling and sad. If you’re a young person and reading this blog please know that not all adults think like this. There are many adults who do care about your lives and the difficulties you face. Above all, don’t be silent. Speak up, especially if you need help.
Do middle-class suburban teenagers have it more rough than other kids? No. But it doesn’t make their problems any less real. We should do what we can to help every teenager become a healthy adult so they aren’t sitting in a psychologists office in their 20’s and 30’s.
Report comment to moderator
#52 ANLIR, wow, you’re one of the only voices of compassion on this entire thread. It’s good to know that someone cares about teenagers. I wish someone had asked me those questions two so I wouldn’t now be in counseling at 36.
Report comment to moderator
Boy, I sure wish someone had asked me the question when I was a teenager. Maybe I would have spoken up and told them about getting abused every day for 17 years.
You couldn’t speak up about that? You waited and waited for someone to ask you in a public setting what your parents were doing to you that would make you need counseling in the future? I guess you’re different, but I think most people don’t want that sort of setting to reveal that sort of thing.
There’s a time and a place for everything, Anlir. You hardly needed to wait for some youth pastor to come around, tell everyone in the group that their parents were messing them up without knowing a thing about them, and then asking if they wanted to talk about. There are lots of good and decent parents, but Bradley’s loaded question makes every parent out to be bad.
I find the lack of empathy for teenagers on here to be simply appalling and sad.
Saying that “Christian” preachers shouldn’t go around goading teens into badmouthing their parents publicly is in no way a lack of empathy for teenagers, and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to twist it into that. Have you no empathy for parents doing their best to raise teens only to have some preacher tell the kids that their parents have screwed them up and they’ll need counseling for years?
Report comment to moderator
Anlir
Legitimate complaints against bad, neglectful or abusive parenting are not made in a mass setting. Normally valid complaints reach me or other teachers in very small groups usually two or three as many take a friend for support. At that time I don’t use any of my flippant lines that I am quite famous for.
Report comment to moderator
#52 ANLIR, wow, you’re one of the only voices of compassion on this entire thread.
Yes, the lonely voice of compassion on a Christian blog is the openly gay person. How tired and predictable.
It’s good to know that someone cares about teenagers.
Here we go. What Byron is saying is “Anyone who disagreess with me is a moral monster who doesn’t give a rip about teenagers.” Yeah, nobody but Anlir cares about teenagers. The rest of us all hate them and wish they would die and go to hell. You’ve got our number, Byron.
I wish someone had asked me those questions two so I wouldn’t now be in counseling at 36.
What did your parents do to you that requires you to be in counseling at 36?
And if it’s none of our business, or you don’t feel comfortable talking about it, then how in the world was it appropriate for Bradley to ask teenagers the same question in a public setting?
Report comment to moderator
#52 – LOL
I love offending PC people.
Report comment to moderator
HRW,
No doubt, what you say is correct. However, I’m looking at Anthony Bradley’s question in context of the situation. It was designed to get teenagers to talk in a group setting. I don’t think it was inappropriate at all. And you know what – I think it also gives an opening for a teenager who may be facing a difficult family situation to speak to him privately afterwords. I don’t think it was meant for some teenager to blurt out “My dad is having sex with me”.
Parents can say and do some awfully cruel things to their kids. Sometimes it’s done out of anger, sometimes it’s done out of ignorance, sometimes it’s done out of just plain old meanness. Sometimes parents don’t realize that the words they are using are hurting more than the child is letting on. And sometimes kids misunderstand the language their parents are using.
What I see from this article is a group of kids who are saying that what their parents are saying or doing (or not doing) is having a more profound effect on them than their parents realize. That’s all I’m saying
Report comment to moderator
From my experience, posing open questions to teens results in a litany of complaints that one should be hard pressed to accept.
Its not the willingness to ask open questions or listen to complaints which draws kids in your confidence but honest open discussion on sensitive topics. I believe you would agree health classes focused on topics which parents avoid (sex, abuse, drug abuse etc) do more to help the hesitant introvert who needs assistance than a mass gripe session.
Report comment to moderator
HRW,
I Agree.
Now, if you will excuse me, I’m going to watch a documentary about Canada:
“The Adventures of Bob & Doug McKenzie: Strange Brew”
Report comment to moderator
#49: law of God (The whole Bible!)
Maybe people didn’t know. The Bible is a collection of stories and letters written by people and what they “assumed” the word of their occult diety might say. No one in their right mind has ever actually talked to supernatural spirits. If they don’t do it today, they didn’t do it then. Of course, to those that wrote the Bible, a 747 would most certainly appear to be of a mystical nature. Hope I helped.
Report comment to moderator
An other good Canadian documentry is Men With Brooms and Slapshot (even though its set in an American town its really about a Canadian pasttime). Finally if you really want to know what’s really behind the polite facade watch any Cronenburg films.
Report comment to moderator
#61
Rdean,
Tonight at a friend’s house, one of the women there told about seeing an angel. She says that she and a friend were looking at a Polaroid photo, and suddenly a cloud appeared in the photo, and then the cloud cleared and the photo showed an angel. She and her friend had trouble believing what they were seeing, so they called another friend. She took one look, said “That’s an angel,” and left it a hurry, as it evidently made her uncomfortable.
I don’t know quite what to make of the story. My acquaintance (I’ve only met her a few weeks ago and I don’t know her well) certainly seems to be in her right mind. She says she was not smoking pot or drinking, and I don’t have a reason to think she is lying. She is quite convinced of what she saw. I’ve never heard of anyone else seeing a photograph change – particularly so that three different people agree on what appears – but is that a reason to assume that she is either lying or losing touch with reality?
Report comment to moderator
Anlir
You break my heart, as you write:……..
So many kids, be they very young or teens have been inflicted with sexual abuse or other abuses since they were young.
Many school authorities try to make it plain, as do others, that children should report any abuse, either physical of sexual or sexual touching, be reported to an adult, either a teacher, pastor, or a trusted adult. So many times it hasn’t been.
Many adults don’t realize that children don’t report abuse to adults, either school, etc. Children are afraid of reporting. TO be sure they wouldn’t make their complaints known in a group of young people complaining about adults or parents.
Anlir, I pray for you. Your comments have concerned me since I read this post. Seventeen years is a long time, it makes my heart weep for your boyhood.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria moves to the head of the class.
Report comment to moderator
#63: and then the cloud cleared and the photo showed an angel.
Sounds delusional. Did she save the photo? Did it have “wings” and a “halo”? How did she know it wasn’t a “devil”? Or “Casper”?
I suspect she isn’t “losing touch with reality”. I suspect she’s passed that point.
Report comment to moderator
#66
Rdean,
She didn’t say if she had saved the photo. I didn’t catch the details about the angel’s appearance, because I was still trying to process the whole idea and see if I had missed something that would explain what she was saying “rationally.” I remember she mentioned the angel’s long hair, and that the angel obviously appeared female, which is how people in our culture think of angels but quite different from how they are depicted in the Bible.
As I said, I don’t know her well (I’m new to the group, the rest of them already knew each other when I joined). But I’ve been in the same group with her for over a month now, eating dinner, discussing personal and spiritual issues, making small talk. Wouldn’t you think that someone who had lost touch with reality would show it in some way that would be noticeable?
Report comment to moderator
Bianca – 57
“#52 – LOL I love offending PC people.”
What is your comment supposed to mean?
Report comment to moderator
It’s an interesting observation.
NT is partly right. Harboring such attitudes against one’s parents is a sin. Nevertheless, we cannot lay those sinful attitudes before Christ in forgiveness if we are not permitted to name the sin.
Also, I find Bradley’s post refreshing compared to the right-wing political spin that generally dominates threads on WoW. But it seems clear that some members of the “either/or crowd” have little appreciation for the opportunity to reflect on whether we evangelicals indeed possess the practical moral superiority that we generally claim for ourselves.
Report comment to moderator
Nevertheless, we cannot lay those sinful attitudes before Christ in forgiveness if we are not permitted to name the sin.
What does that mean?
Nothing. It’s just a bunch of gibberish, Christianese, double talk.
If we’re not permitted to sin, we can’t “lay those sinful attitudes before Christ in forgiveness”?
What? You don’t lay your sinful attitudes before Christ in forgiveness. You repent of them and then ask him to forgive you. At least that used to be what Christians believed about sin. Now we’re being told that we must be permitted to dishonor our parents so that we can “lay our dishonoring our parents before Christ in forgiveness.”
Was Bradley admonishing them that they were in sin and needed forgiveness for dishonoring their parents? No, he was the one encouraging them to dishonor their parents. Naming the sin? Backbiting, gossip, dishonoring your parents. That’s naming the sin. It’s those who have rebuked Bradley who are being told they’re not permitted to name his sin.
Like I said it’s gibberish that makes no sense. To the degree that’s it’s possible to interpret it, it’s turned the whole situation completely on its head.
Report comment to moderator
69 – We don’t have moral superiority. The Bible does, and it’s our rule for faith and practice. That’s what ticks people off.
Report comment to moderator
68 – just laughing at his post, saying I enjoy offending PC (politically correct) people.
I probably should have just said in 57, “I’m offended that you’re offended.”
Report comment to moderator
Bianca – 72
Thanks, wasn’t sure what you meant.
Report comment to moderator
Bianca:
You probably won’t see this, as this thread seems about dead. But some points you’ve made have continued to bother me. One, you’ve made several comments about maybe not going to church at all. Well, that simply isn’t an option for a Christian, sorry.
Second, you say that the church should be teaching men, not women and children. Based on what Scripture? Here, briefly, are several problems I see with that. Biblical: Scripture keeps the whole community in view quite often, with nursing babies specifically noted as part of some Old Testament assemblies. Older women are specificially told to teach the younger women. Jesus Himself taught women (Mary and Martha, for instance), though He was not their husband. Paul taught Aquila and Priscilla (not just Aquila).
Further, if only men are to be taught, not women and children, then churches might as well send all the kids to children’s church (and not teach them anything there) and send all the women home. Nope, that’s not at all the biblical pattern. Obviously the worship service is for more than “teaching,” but teaching is definitely one of its purposes. Should we have classes and Bible studies for men only? And what about single women, women married to unbelieving husbands, and women whose husbands can’t or won’t teach them–are we all “out of luck”? We don’t need to be taught, or it’s actually wrong to teach us?
Again, I think you’re basing this on tradition, not Scripture–but whose tradition I don’t know, since this falls outside the range of any denominations I’m familiar with! But churches should be formed based on Scripture and not on tradition, and Scripture distinctly says to teach everyone. “Go and teach all nations” doesn’t seem limited to men, nor do the pastoral epistles.
Report comment to moderator
Hi, Cheryl! I responded to you on today’s Whirled Views.
Report comment to moderator
Bianca, …… Cheryl is right. Scripture doesn’t say that women should not teach, or that they should not have a place within the Church.
Cheryl makes some excellent points.
In Romans we see Phebe who worked in the Church Paul has much to say here, there are 35 people mentioned by name in Romans 16. Phebe is a woman, so is Priscilla, and she in never mentioned WITHOUT her husband. The women were involved in spreading the Gospel.
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
Romans 16
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. Acts 18
(Notice in verse 26 that it was both Aquila and Priscilla took Apollos and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Report comment to moderator
Bianca
I would like an answer to my post, if it isn’t to much trouble -
Report comment to moderator
I never said that women should not teach women and children. The Bible teaches this clearly. However, I personally do not believe that women should be leading heavily doctrinaire bible studies, exegeting scripture and teaching redemptive history, the Law of God, etc. That is the job of the elders of the church and husbands, and that type of bible study by women shows a deficiency in the male leadership of the church. I also do not believe in these women’s conferences that are so popular today. They encourage careerism in women; and I believe that these types of things in our reformed and presbyterian churches will eventually lead to the installation of women and deacons and elders. Satan is very subtle.
My point was that pastors need to preach sermons that emphasize instruction to the men so that those men may teach their wives and children. Most churches are feminized and juvenile, because they emphasize instruction to women and children. Most sermons today do not honor the patriarchal nature of the scriptures. Women and children thrive in a church where the men are equipped as heads of households. The Bible has plenty to say to women as it does all types of saints. But the main message is to heads of households, because the Word of God is a covenantal document.
Report comment to moderator
Oops, that should have been the installation of women AS deacons and elders.
Report comment to moderator
Bianca,
Aquila and Priscilla are always spoken of ‘together’ its also evident that when they took Apollos into their home they both “expounded unto him they way of God more perfectly.”
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. Acts 18:24-26
All Church women’s seminar’s, retreats, etc, are not the same. They can be very uplifting, giving women an opportunity to ‘fellowship together’ -
There is nothing sinful in a woman having a career. Women should be educated if they want certain positions, there is nothing wrong with this. Often times women work before having children, and then after the kids are off to college, they return to their professions.
Report comment to moderator
Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I have to do that a lot here.
Report comment to moderator
God bless you Bianca
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDonTheWeb.com to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!