Rules of engagement
A few years ago, after the actor Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn in “The Lord of the Rings”) made some mindless comments on The Charlie Rose Show, I took him to task on my blog. What I didn’t know was that a passel of neo-Nazis are big Viggo fans. Not long after, I discovered from the Web traffic coming to my blog (because I’m vain that way) that the neo-Nazis were having a debate, on their own website, about whether I was a Jew. They’d even posted a picture of me holding my son, so they could examine the shapes of our heads.
You can’t make stuff like this up.
Anyway, I was shocked, and incensed, and so I wrote what I thought would be a biting and hilarious post about it. Well, before long there was a wide-ranging debate in the Comments section of my blog, with a handful of the neo-Nazis weighing in about race and religion, and several of my regular readers arguing with them, and me jumping into the fray from time to time myself.
What sticks with me is that the neo-Nazis, despite their paranoia and the wickedness of their worldview, displayed more civility and logic than some people who post here.
That came to mind Friday, when I decided I was neither going to participate in, nor read, the WORLD webzine comments any more. I don’t have time to spend correcting people who deliberately assume the worst about my motivations, I told myself. I have a PhD in political science, and I worked in Washington, went the internal, preening monologue in my head, and these people want to lecture me about politics?
I got closer to the truth when I admitted that it feels like a wound, to try to make a point in good faith, and to be beset by what seem to be niggling remarks, and sarcastic one-liners, and diatribes about my hypocrisy or ignorance. It takes too much emotional energy, I reasoned. I have to preserve that for the parts of my life where it’s really needed.
Of course that wasn’t really the truth, either. The plain truth of it is that I want to look good to others. I want people to read what I’ve written, hold it up to the light, and celebrate its shimmering brilliance. So while there have been times I felt wronged — believed that a commenter wrongly assessed me as a person, or misread my words, or said something untrue and then failed to apologize when corrected — my indignation still springs from a sinful place, which is my desire to be admired.
Cross it with the fact that I want to see this website become something important, and I have a dilemma. To pull away from comments completely is to forego an opportunity to help make WORLD’s webzine a place where significant and thoughtful discussion — and therefore valuable learning — occurs. But to read them is to end up fuming, because of this nagging self-obsession that I have.
So I prayed about it, and discussed it with my wife. As I grow with her, I am discovering that helpmate means so much more than: someone who will cook your food. She gently confirmed my own suspicions about the matter, which is that I need to get over it, and participate where I think engaging someone might be worthwhile, and not let vanity put me on a path of “setting straight” every person who misperceives or misrepresents what I write, or who is simply mean-spirited.
This wise counsel, in turn, led me to formulate these rules of engagement, which I was going to keep to myself, until some reflection led me to think perhaps some of you might benefit from them as well. At the very least, you’ll know why I ignore some comments and not others.
WOODLIEF’S RULES OF ENGAGEMENT
I will endeavor to exhibit, and will only engage in discourse with those who exhibit, the following qualities:
Civility: Just to be clear, I appreciate an articulate evisceration (Mark Twain’s devastating and hilarious essay on James Fenimore Cooper, for example) and believe that, beneath the right pen, a lampoon or critical essay is a work of art. One usually finds such things written about public figures, who have afforded the critic a sizeable body of words and actions from which to draw conclusions about their motivations, personal qualities, and so on. I think in a Comments forum, however, which endeavors to be something like a roundtable discussion, and where the participants know relatively little about one another’s lives, I ought not to attribute motives, ridicule someone’s point of view, or speak in a generally combative or mean-spirited manner. Civility doesn’t require that I refrain from disagreeing with someone. It means that I begin with the assumptions that: 1) I may be the only Christ someone meets today; 2) the person I’m addressing has good motives; and 3) my responsibility is to make a valuable point, not to score points.
Logic: The Almighty Creator, in his infinite wisdom, bestowed us with a world governed by rules, and with brains designed to grasp those rules. In short: A ain’t B, and there’s not much point in tussling with someone who doesn’t see that.
Humility: If the goal of our discourse is to be understood, we have to be willing to understand, which means we have to — truly, in the deepest part of ourselves — be willing to be wrong. Perhaps it’s possible that one or two of us are never wrong, but the funny thing about such people is that they are indistinguishable from the arrogant errants; there’s no point in talking to members of either group. We should just let them hold forth, and then move on with the discussion.
So there you have it. Feel free to peruse my blog or other published work, find something I’ve written that violates what I’ve said here, and call me a hypocrite. (If you have trouble finding something like that, email me and I’ll point you in the right direction.) Or give me a Bible quote (King James version, please!) that reveals the unrighteousness in one of my proposed rules. Or just call me a big fat stupid doofus, with sugar on top.
But don’t expect a reply.
(PS: I wrote that last sentence with a cheerful countenance. If you don’t believe me, look at my little avatar.)



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back to top71 Comments to “Rules of engagement”
Preach it, Tony! Amen.
BTW–I really liked your piece about the alcoholic homeless guy you prayed for.
(I liked this one, too–my stryggles as well.)
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Hi, Tony. Good stuff.
One question, and yes, it’s niggling: I don’t understand the photo above. Is one of the people in the picture you? Nobody in it looks like Viggo Mortensen, or Charlie Rose; and no one appears to have shaved his head.
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There’s a lot to be learned here. One thing that I have to remember is to be harder on myself than I am on others.
Tony, are you really KJV only?
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tony woodlief post 4,
one technical point. Perhaps the NIV or RSV is more rigorous to the original text than say the KJV?
Nicely written.
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The Law of the Commons prevails here, where anyone with an internet connection can join in. Youths (late teens to mid-twenties) get passionate about their beliefs and some have even had enough “book-lernin’” to put together a coherent (but not necessarily logical) argument. In particular they seem to target people of faith and feel it’s their duty to smote them, thus solidifying their stance of superiority against the “fundies”.
Comments that glorify Jesus would be great to include in your rules, particularly since this site has a Christian foundation. Unless the site manager applies a tight leash to commenters, we’ll continue to get the atheists and god-haters. That’s OK, as we occasionally have the opportunity to witness in unusual circumstances. Losing out on your writing would be most unfortunate, so thanks for putting up with the occasional sling and arrow.
[If you think the backlash was bad with the neo-Nazis, can you imagine what would happen if people knew you were a Tarheel fan? Oops, was I just thinking that or did I actually type that ...]
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marc v post 5,
but as I read the rules for the blog, while it is maintained by a conservatvie Christian entitiy, it is not a conservative Christian only blog.
As such what would appear to be a suggestion of limiting atheists and “god-haters”:
“Comments that glorify Jesus would be great to include in your rules, particularly since this site has a Christian foundation. Unless the site manager applies a tight leash to commenters, we’ll continue to get the atheists and god-haters. ”
dioe not appear to be consistent with the intent fot this blog:
“We yearn for a forum in which participants will be tough-minded in their analysis but respectful toward each other. Debate is a contact sport, so we don’t discourage intellectual blocking and tackling within free and open encounters. But obscene, profane, or racist rhetoric – to cite only some obvious examples – shuts down debate. WORLD reserves the right to delete or edit any posting as its editors determine.”
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I really can understand what Marc V is saying.
While it’s true that Atheists and other God-haters can’t be eliminated from posting, it has always seemed that World Mag Blog has had more of those types of people than what would seem to be their fair share.
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Sorry folks, sometimes I think my sarcasm is more obviously funny than it really is. The King James reference was a joke, based on my observation that sometimes when a person wants to hold forth on someone’s unrighteousness, he uses the KJV, perhaps because the thees and thous sound very serious.
Marc V, I love you, but I side with Musing on this one — we shouldn’t restrict the site to Jesus lovers. And for what it’s worth, the mean-spirited comments that I’ve observed here don’t all come from atheists. I’ll admit (and defend) a higher standard for Christians as well — while we should expect basic civility from non-Christians, we should hope for Christ-like behavior from Christians, which means an attitude of lovingkindness toward those with whom we disagree, not ridicule, or comments which suggest we can see, through the dark glass of a handful of words, the state of their souls.
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which helps to keep things tough-minded…I appreciate that aspect of the boards
Seriously, are you KJV-only?
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oops, simultaneous posting…asked and answered
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RR,
I believe that’s a stock photo. I am not, so far as I know, in that picture, nor is Viggo or Charlie.
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I had a feeling the KJV only thing was a joke, but I didn’t see a little wink smiley or anything, so I thought maybe you were serious! But then I thought that your writing style doesn’t really match that of a KJVeester. I am one myself – interestingly enough though, not so radical that I make a big deal of it. Imagine that?
But seriously, I don’t believe that other versions are satanic. I just don’t recommend the NIV at all.
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Bianca,
My wife uses NIV, which I jokingly call the “nearly inspired version,” in reply to which she sometimes kicks me in my shins. I carry an NASB in my bag, and Sproul’s New KJV at home. And sometimes I actually break out the Strong’s concordance, or cheat and just find out what Matthew Henry had to say about it. It’s fascinating how something textually inaccurate like “The Message” can still speak to the hearts of the unsaved and saved alike, while delving deeper into the actual language of the texts has its own ability to unlock mysteries.
I’m convinced that in the end it is less about what version of Bible one uses, and more about a submissive heart in the face of a wild and powerful God. Oswald Chambers puts it well: “We read some things in the Bible three hundred and sixty-five times and they mean nothing to us, then all of a sudden we see what God means, because in some particular we have obeyed God, and instantly His nature is opened up.”
And to think that right now we only see through a glass darkly…
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I’m curious as to the link for your comments about Viggo Mortensen on Charlie Rose. Is it still available for viewing?
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I must say, Tony, I enjoyed this post a lot. Oh, and I got the KJV joke before you explained it. A guess at least two of us think you’re funny.
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re 11: thanks for the reply, Tony.
A little suggestion (like those offered by commenters on other posts several times since the new format) for whoever chooses these photos: couldja please go easy with the non sequitor photo-and-post combinations?
Simple minds like mine keep getting snared trying to figure how the one corresponds to the other.
I’m thinking this one suggested the concept of “engagement” to your editor, since the two mystery men are shaking hands. Yet it’s clearly a candid photo, which suggests a news event involving actual people. Clip-art could have accomplished the same purpose without making us wonder if we’re supposed to recognize the people in the photo, or connect them to the article in a specific way.
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Expectations have a lot to do with this discussion too. What kind of behavior should we expect from people who comments anonymously? We’re hardly civil with each other even when we see each other face to face.
Though I feel your pain, I’d be somewhat concerned with you need to have rules in a forum where you have very limited control (sovereignty) over the inputs from others. I might infer that you don’t get out enough and mix with people who don’t think like you. I believe we’re all prone to avoid those who don’t think like we do. A blog sort of crashes that view of life and messes with our comfort level. In my view it confirms the truths I find about human nature in the Bible and that I would be naive to believe that people will naturally gravitate to civility.
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Hey, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. It’s age old advice, and it’s good advice.
You need to toughen up a little bit, Tony. I know Victoria can be a handful, but if you can’t handle her then you probably should stay out of the comments.
Well, frankly, that’s very unlikely to happen. Not when you’ve got a writer who runs around telling Christian kids willy nilly that their parents are inflicting serious, long term damage on them, so bad they’ll need in depth counseling into their thirties, and then turns around and criticizes these same cruel and massively negligent parents for not adopting, and inflicting serious damage on even more kids. And when the hypocrisy is pointed out, you defend him. WoW is not going to be “an important place” until it develops some more stringent “hiring” standards, and some internal consistency about just what Christianity means. Honor your father and mother means preachers and WoW columnists should run around to church youth groups and invite the kids to publicly trash their parents? And WoW not only has no problem with this sort of behavior, but thinks so highly of it they put it on their front page?
Well, instead of droppping out of the comments, why not do what at least one WoW writer does, and comment under a phony name?
By the way, I’m not sure what conclusion the nazis came to, but I for one admire the shape of your skull.
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Could this be a return to rational discourse on the web? Let’s hope so.
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night train post 18,
an intersting post. I agree, I think with the basic tenor, but the following caught my attention:
1) shouldn’t we be hoping that we shed light not generate heat?
2) I suggest that there never will be an internally consistent definition of what is meant by a Christian. We have played this discussion many times, and everytime, it seems people describe some form of hyphenated Christian, not the general Christian.
Some words just don’t seem to be want to be defined precisely.
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Re: “shedding light” vs. “generating heat”
Most of the time these are simply empty phrases people toss around. Most of my comments do shed light; any heat generated is usually by my respondents.
Someone points out an embarrassing fact in the comment fields, and another commenter or the author gets mad and flies off the handle. Just like Luke calling me a racist the other day for quoting a fact, easily verified, about black incarceration rates in West Virginia. Just like when I point out that Bradley’s behavior at the youth group flies directly in the face of the Ten Commandments, people get mad. Just like above, where I point out that it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to condemn Christian parents wholesale for scarring their kids for life, and then turn around and condemn them for not adopting more kids. And Tony didn’t like that.
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Night Train,
An alternative to getting out of the kitchen is turning down the heat a bit. Yes, I’m patting myself on the back for tying your kitchen metaphor to your heat/light metaphor. That’s all I’m suggesting with the plea for more civility.
I think you would agree that it’s a good idea to allow people with a diversity of viewpoints to comment here, yes? If so, it probably doesn’t make sense for WoW to require a more stringent orthodoxy screen. And if one of us writers appears to display hypocrisy, surely you’ll be there to catch us, right?
I just used an emoticon. I hate emoticons. But that’s how much I wanted you to see that I’m not being snippy.
Finally, I haven’t read the Bradley piece you’re referring to, about parents raising their children poorly, but assuming he didn’t mean ALL Christian parents, I don’t see any inconsistency between that charge and his subsequent chastising of evangelicals for not adopting more. Think about it as a matter of sets:
Set A = all Christian parents
Set B = Christian parents who are performing poorly
Set C = Christian parents who are doing a good job
Don’t you think, in his essay on adoption, that Bradley was implicitly urging set C to adopt?
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Dick,
It’s probably true that I don’t get out enough. I think people can have widely disparate worldviews, and yet still expect one another to adhere to some basic standards of discussion. Otherwise, discussion breaks down, and learning breaks down, and we settle into tribalism. You’re right that it’s hard to get people to behave that way, of course. I struggle with it myself.
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I’m probably commenting too much now. I’m just worried someone will think I’m giving him the cold shoulder as a consequence of my nifty new rules.
Zanzibar, your eye for comic genius is commendable.
Edsel, the beginnings of the Nazi imbroglio are here: http://www.tonywoodlief.com/archives/000990.html
I wasn’t altogether kind to them. Just goes to show that while a man can suggest rules of civility, that doesn’t mean he’ll always follow them.
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Finally, I haven’t read the Bradley piece you’re referring to
Wow. That’s incredible. What arrogance. You haven’t actually bothered to read the article, but you feel absolutely no compunctions about telling me how I don’t know what I’m talking about when I reference the article.
Well, Tony, maybe you should read Bradley’s article before spouting off that I’m misinterpreting it. I have read it, along with much of his blog, where he rants on the very same them quite often.
Read the article on WoW, and then tell me that Bradley was talking about just a small percentage of Christians parents scarring their kids for life and condemning them to years and decades psychological counseling. He wasn’t.
He went to a church youth group at a large evangelical church and attacked Christian parents across the board. He didn’t say “Now I know this won’t apply to most of you, but what are your parents doing to you that will cause you to need counseling into your 20s and 30s?”. He didn’t say “I know it’s unlikely, but do some of you Christian kids have parents that doing you long term psychological damage?”
No, he simply asked them what there parents were doing that was going to condemn them to years of therapy, if not decades.
Obviously, Bradley believes “Set C” is miniscule or nonexistent.
The assumption is clear. Christian parents, across the board, all over America, are scarring their kids psychologically, and condemning them to years or decades of counselling.
Here’s a link to the article for your convenience, Tony. If you ever decide that maybe you should know what you’re talking about before spouting off (or pontificating if you will) about how badly wrong I’ve got it, you can check it out.
http://snipurl.com/1tw5l
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Tony,
I am a non-Christian, but I appreciate what you have written! I have been calling for civility and decency on here for awhile now.
As a minority on here, I have learned a few things along the way:
1. Ignore the uncivil people. One of the drawbacks to blogging is that it draws in all kinds of people, including some very uncivil ones. I have a personal “ignore” list on here of people I don’t respond to.
2. As much as possible, don’t get bogged down in details and finer points. One can always find something to “nit-pick” about in any writer’s comments. There will always be people who will argue with you if you let them.
3. Address the real issues/the “big picture”. Many times I find that people’s criticism is really about a bigger issue or another issue entirely. When I write on here, I strive to write about the “big picture”.
4. Stand by your principles, but be willing to apologize. A soft answer turns away anger. Even if it doesn’t, you’ll be a better man for it.
I can tell you that there are many fine people on here, both Christian and not. Under Lynn’s guiding hand this has become a much more civil place than it was a year or two ago. I can remember so real screaming matches on here, some of which I’m ashamed to admit I participated in. This has been a real learning experience for me being on here.
I look forward to reading your future stories.
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Night Train – 18 – 25
I agree with you on this.
The Topic which Anthony Bradley wrote, Ushering 20-to-30-year olds to counseling is the one you are referring to. The first post is yours Night Train, and a good one – I believe that anyone who comments on an article should first read it, ….. I agree with you.
Regarding the thread which I ‘think’ not positive, Tony is referring to here in his Topic post – 115,000 souls
My post 36 – on 115,000 souls was an attempt to straighten out a situation which should never have existed, but became a problem because my post to FP post 1 had been misread. It was posted to FP using the word “pontificate” post 23 – However Tony decided to tell me off because I simply do not agree with him in his post 31. Trying to unravel the misunderstanding on my part (36) was obviously fruitless.
The comment below….LOL
“I know Victoria can be a handful, but if you can’t handle her then you probably should stay out of the comments.”
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Thanks Anlir. Good advice all around.
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I stated that “it would be great” to have a rule for comments glorifying Jesus. It’s a rule I try to follow for whenever I feel the urge to post something publicly. And yes, this site would be poorer if non-Christians were banned (somehow) from comments. If we can’t dialogue then the good news will have a more difficult time of reaching unsaved eyes.
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Marc,
I didn’t read your comment (#5) closely enough the first time, and now I see what you mean — not that we should expect everyone to glorify Christ, but that we should endeavor to do so. Sorry I missed that.
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Tony, any plans to read the article?
Any plans to apologize for telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about when you hadn’t even read the article?
Or are you too busy decrying “incivility”?
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Tony does have one more “tool” at his disposal:
Lynn Vincent’s “sceptor”.
She’s been known to use it from time to time as the situation warrants.
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I don’t know how this sceptor gets used, but I’ll be the first to say that I wouldn’t trust me with it any farther than I could throw myself. A powerless Tony is a better Tony, for all concerned.
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I wished I had seen the Viggo interview on Charlie Rose. I watch Charlie Rose fairly regularly because I like the way he interviews people. I also like Tavis Smiley. I can’t stand the “shout-fests” on cable TV.
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Well, Anlir, since Ed/QWERTY got banished, it’s been quite civil here, snide remarks from those who disagree with some of us (i.e. you) notwithstanding.
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Yes, since Ed/Qwerty was hit with the rod now we have to settle for snide remarks from leftists such as Night Train . . .
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Nice points Anlir #26. But how does that square with your comments yesterday that …
“One gets the idea that they [Christians] would, with great glea, blow up all of the public school buildings in this country, just like the Taliban blew up the mountain carvings in Afghanistan.”
Do you consider the characterization of all Christians as the enemies of civilization civil?
I suppose it would be civil of us to allow someone to lecture us on civility while calling us intolerant bigots. I suppose we should just turn the other cheek. But if the purpose of the World blog is to challenge one another’s World views then how about the view that Christians are dangerous enemies of civilization?
I have a theory that behind all of the evil of this world is a lie. The Middle East crisis has to do with lies each side has with their enemies. Most wars begin with a lie. Nazism thrived on lies. If falsehood is the enemy of truth, then Christians should engage it. We should be polite to the person, but unkind to false ideas. Failure to engage falsehood is what allows evil to prosper.
Jesus was full of grace and truth. He was kind to sinners, but bold with the truth.
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Careful Xion — reverse your statement or premise you seem to suggest that a lie is an indicator of evil. Since WMD was a lie, is the people behind the WMD fabrication evil?
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Yes, WMD was a lie HRW. Saddam Hussein lied about having them. It brought ruin and destruction upon his country. The Iraqi war was started by a lie. Daily media about Iraq is mostly lies. Characterization of the war is lies. Characterizations of the religious element is lies. It seems that there is no place on earth that lies are more bold than in the Middle East. But American media holds its own.
Lies are not merely indicators of evil, they are motivators for it.
Jesus told the religious people of his time “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” John 8:44
In other words, all of the evil that exists in the world today is the result of the first lie.
There is nothing I enjoy more than seeing an arrow of truth pierce a lie, unless it is my own of course. I am the least truthful person I know. It is a constant struggle to be honest in all my dealings. When I point out the lies of others, I am constantly mindful of my own. God help us all.
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Tony, it is funny to me that I think of the WMB as angels of sorts, messengers and ministering spirits, as Peter says (1 Pet 1:12) who play a role in carrying God’s words but rarely participate themselves. I sense a bit of envy in the free-for-all that is humanity engaged in idealogical exchange while the messengers themselves mostly keep to the sidelines. We appreciate your role, keep up the good work.
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Should have said “WMB editors” above.
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The quote below taken from the TOPIC is incorrect – We as Believers/Born Again Christians do not come even ‘close’ to being Christ in any way shape or form. We are to be ‘Christ like’ but we are not even close to being anyone who would have the NERVE to say “I may be the only Christ someone meets today”
There is not one verse in the Scriptures that come close to saying we are Christ in anyway, shape or form. I have heard this phrase several times, but never in an Evangelical Church. It might stroke the ego of those who are out and about, but there is NOT one bit of truth in this phrase. We are to tell others about Christ Jesus, we are to be a witness for HIM, we are to be an example, but we are in NO WAY “the only Christ someone meets today” – Christ is God the Son, lest we forget HIS DEITY, to even come close to thinking we are worthy of such an honor as being a ‘christ’ which someone would meet would be unthinkable.
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Yes, since Ed/Qwerty was hit with the rod now we have to settle for snide remarks from leftists such as Night Train . . .
Yeah, I’m really a leftist, Outkast. Your powers of observation never cease to astonish me.
Hey, my sister in law wanted me to ask you what’s the best way to get grape juice stains out of carpet? She figured as a stay at home mom you would know.
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Re #37
Yes, as I’ve pointed out many times, Anlir loves to make all sorts of hateful comments about Christians while simultaneously decrying “the lack of civility” on WoW.
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Did all of this arise out of the fact that you mistakenly thought that I questioned your manhood?
I like the new rules by the way and for me it is the New King James Version, same holier than thou tone without the needless thees and thous.
Keep the faith!
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I like the thees and thous as they are part of our heritage. I especially love it when a pastor prays with thees and thous. I’m trying to get in the habit of doing it. I like the way it sounds.
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Xion,
I wasn’t sure at first what “WMB” stood for, and so I was trying to turn it into something akin to “weapons of mass destruction.” Perhaps “weapons of mass blogging?”
Classical Lib,
I was too touchy with you, even though your logic has more split ends than a 1960’s rock band. I’m with you on the New King James. I read somewhere that there’s an English translation of the books of Samuel that is faithful to the original text, but with an eye to its poetry as well as its literal words. I imagine in the end I’ll have to break down and learn Hebrew.
Bianca,
Thou art entitled to thy Bible of choice, and blessings upon thee in thy reading of it.
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In response to Xion and others, I would ask you to see my comments on today’s (11/20) “Whirled Views”, particularly, post #11.
The “WMB” thing used to throw me. I always think of “WMD” whenever I see it.
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I was just wandering around worldmagblog when I stumbled onto this. I have no idea what you have been through recently, but I can guess from experiences I have had with similar people here a few years ago.
As I recall, I went after one of your articles a few months ago. I hope I was civil and logical. You posted responses, and we had a civil discussion. I hope we both benefited from the experience. I appreciated your humility and willingness to engage me.
I think your arguments are tighter and stronger as a result of the discussions here. I know mine are. The sharpening process can be painful. If we are humble we can always learn from those who may have a different perspective or those who have been exposed to different data. It requires a thick skin to both ignore spurious critiques and admit big blunders. But sometimes we can just be wasting our time with cranks.
I suppose discernment will be necessary to determine when to engage commentors and when to ignore them.
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Amphipolis,
From what I recall, you were quite civil, and I hope I was something approximating that. I think your distinction between sharpening and hate-/crank-avoidance is a good one.
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Thanketh youeth, Tony. You is very kind.
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I go back and forth with your thoughts on the blog. Sometimes I think — I shouldn’t spend my time on the blog. I should spend this energy on people I have relationships with, not anonymous commenters on a blog. But then I read the blog again, get drawn into some compelling debate, and just can’t resist adding my essential (to my mind, of course) input.
For me, the blog is primarily about having fun. A chance to exercise my brain (however small), see if I can write a coherent paragraph, for an audience that might be interested in my thoughts. Also to see how other people think. But personally I don’t think the blog is more than that. I don’t think someone will change their mind on weighty issues based on an anonymous blog comment — I think that would require a personal relationship to go along with the conversation, and an observed life to make the ideas compelling. And then for non-weighty issues, well, they are non-weighty.
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#48 I imagine in the end I’ll have to break down and learn Hebrew.
Absolutely! Of course! I think all Christians should read the Bible in the original languages. You are all invited to my house for a Hebrew lesson and cookies.
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If you only lived closer to me, Xion . . .
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Tony #48 – “…even though your logic has more split ends than a 1960’s rock band.”
Hey, that’s a direct piece of scripture from “The Message”, am I right? Thou is busted, Mr. KJV!
The Walrus was Saul.
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Eaton,
I think you are right about the significantly greater impact of relationships over anonymous words. The discussions here are likely more for edification than conversion of any sort.
Travis,
You busted me. It’s in the section where Paul rolls up with his posse to Ephesus and disses the idol-makers.
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Tony — and I didn’t mean to minimize the meaning or significance of the writing of columnists in the blog or magazine, when I talked about changing minds of weighty issues. I was thinking more of a typical commenter, like myself, and what purpose my commenting serves. I do think consistent writing by a columnist can and does have a meaningful impact on readers.
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“Mark Twain’s devastating and hilarious essay on James Fenimore Cooper”
While it is hard to disagree with Twain the second movie is still one of my favorites. Hawkeye was the first American Superman.
Can you see the British Colonel and the French officer facing each other during the surrender? What a gorgeous scene.
How about when the British General faces the Scots Major (no love lost there) with nothing in between them; each on one end of the wide screen. No way to put that on a TV without a letterbox.
I want to watch it again.
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I wasnt aware that the concept of ROE had entered the civilian lexicon!
Leaving Iraq for Kuwait on Saturday!
Yippee
Back in the States soon.
Are there any Packers fans, Falcons fans out there?
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Tony … I was wondering if you noticed Night Train’s question to you way back in post #25. And if you had any response.
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Hi SteveG,
Train’s #25 post was a series of insults disguised as a question. A civil person might have written: “Tony, you might assume that Bradley didn’t mean ALL Christian parents are failing, but you really ought to read his essay, because I’m not exaggerating when I say that he meant ALL parents. Then let me know if you still hold to your A-B-C sets thing.” Instead, he accused me of telling him he didn’t know what he was talking about. Any level-headed reader of my #22 post would see that I said no such thing to him, and that I admitted up front that I was working from an assumption (and a reasonable one, at that).
I read Bradley’s essay subsequently, and I don’t believe any fair-minded reader could conclude, as Train did, that he was referring to ALL Christian parents. Therefore, Train’s string of logic, such as it is (”Bradley said all Christian parents are failing, so it is foolish for him to tell Christian parents to adopt”) breaks down.
So yes, I noticed his question, but I’m not going to converse with someone who insults people as a matter of course (notice his posts #35, 43, and 44), and who is more interested in picking a fight than having a discussion.
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T%on Woodlief post 62,
did I understand you correctly?
Areyou suggestign that we should actually look at the sources, interpret them logically, and then use logic in our postings?
Thank you so much: please make sure the memo gets out!!!
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Once again Woodlief’s being disingenuous. I never implied or said or even hinted that Bradley was referring to ALL Christian parents. But he obviously thinks this is a widespread problem, and judging by his handling of the matter at the youth group, he must assume that most Christian parents are this way. He didn’t ASK them if any of their parents are screwing them up mentally/emotionally. He simply assumed that it was the case, and then asked them for particulars. And since he made it clear that this was no out of the ordinary congregation, any reasonable person can only conclude that he would assume that the situation is the same in most churches. Woodlief is simply being disingenuous here, because he doesn’t want to admit the truth about what Bradley was saying. So he resorts to insulting me, instead.
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Insulting me and badly misrepresenting my position, that is. I challenge anyone to read that article and find a single indication from Bradley that this evangelical church was in any way out of the ordinary. There isn’t a single one. And yet he assumes that most of the kids in the youth groups have been damaged by their parents, so badly that they’ll require counseling well into their 20s and 30s. Can Woodlief point out where Bradley described what was out of the ordinary about this church that led him to assume that the kids were damaged by their parents, whereas he wouldn’t have made that assumption at other churches? No, he can’t. Because it’s not there. Because the tone and thrust of Bradley’s article is how widespread the alleged problem is. And Woodlief knows it. So he simply creates a straw man, says I was claiming that ALL Christian parents are this way, when he knows very well I said no such thing.
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To clarify, in comment #22 above, I said that while I hadn’t read Bradley’s essay, I assumed he didn’t mean ALL parents. The point was to demonstrate that your logic was faulty, i.e., that it was consistent for Bradley to say that “some” (or even, as you argue, “many”) Christian parents are messing up, and yet still admonish Christians to adopt, because in the latter admonition he is referring to parents who are getting it right. I never said you believed it was ALL parents, nor did I intend to be disingenuous. I used set theory, for crying out loud.
You then said I was arrogant, was telling you that you didn’t know what you were talking about, etc., etc.
So hopefully we agree, right, that my original assumption was correct, that Bradley did not mean ALL Christian parents? If so, I think it’s fair to assume that he wasn’t being illogical when he said more Christians should adopt, i.e., to assume that when he says so, he means those Christian parents who are doing their jobs.
Also, though I haven’t spoken to Bradley about this, I think one could conclude from his essay that while he thinks this is a widespread problem, he doesn’t necessarily think it applies to “most” (your word) Christian parents. Imagine that a third of the kids in that youth group raised their hands. Imagine further, as you suggest Bradley believes, that this proportion holds in all other churches. That would be, I think, a widespread problem. Yet it still wouldn’t be most Christian families.
We don’t know what those numbers are, of course, nor do we know what numbers Bradley had in mind when he wrote the essay.
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I’ll let the readers compare these two quotes:
From #62
I read Bradley’s essay subsequently, and I don’t believe any fair-minded reader could conclude, as Train did, that he was referring to ALL Christian parents.
From #66
I never said you believed it was ALL parents, nor did I intend to be disingenuous. I used set theory, for crying out loud.
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Night Train: To be fair, Tony did say “ALL Christian parents” in #62 and “ALL parents” in #66. I don’t know if that distinction matters.
Tony: I wasn’t trying to be a thorn in your side with my post earlier, but I do think as a general rule, one should read essays before assuming one knows the author’s intent.
I think you two should shake hands and move on, not that anybody asked my opinion.
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Train,
I initially was the one who assumed Bradley wasn’t talking about all Christian parents, and used that assumption to make my point. Subsequently, in your post #25, you seemed to argue that in fact Bradley was referring to all Christian parents — at least, that’s how I interpret your statement here:
“Obviously, Bradley believes “Set C” is miniscule or nonexistent.”
Set C, recall, is Christian parents who are doing a good job.
I didn’t originally say you believed Bradley was referring to all parents (in my post #22), which was what I was talking about in post #66. You are right, I did say in post #62 that you concluded Bradley meant all parents — I forgot about that when I wrote post #66, forgive me.
So do you believe that Bradley meant all, or almost all, Christian parents? I just don’t read his essay that way. At the very least, can we agree that there’s room to interpret his remarks broadly, i.e., that he could have meant 20% of the youth in the meeting he refers to, or 100%? I, of course, assume he leans more to the 20% side, and hence I see no illogic in his subsequent call for more Christians to adopt. That’s the crux of our disagreement, I think.
Steve,
I agree that in general one should read an essay before assuming one knows the author’s intent. I certainly wish I had done so in this case.
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As always, late to the party, or too random on the site…
Tony — I appreciate the original post, and your interaction. In my experience it is often the manner as much as the message that proves winsome. For me, it was the life observed of Christians in my HS oh, 40 years ago, that made the Gospel credible. It’s still the case.
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The Amaerican Standard Version, 1901, would be more interesting since it is the only version which accurately uses the phrase “putting away” and the word divorce.
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