Turkey worship
A church in Austin, Texas, cancelled an “interfaith” Thanksgiving service when church leaders realized “interfaith” meant that people from other faiths were coming to their church to worship: “The event, now in its 23rd year, invites Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Bahais and others to worship together.”
Every year, a different faith group hosts the Thanksgiving event, which typically includes food, prayer, song and dance. Last year, St. Louis Catholic Church hosted. This year, because the Muslim groups did not have their own space that was large enough, they decided to rent the Quarries, a 58-acre property [...] that the church has owned since 1984.
The director of the interreligious group that sponsors the event, Simone Flowers, was upset. She said, “As a Christian, my first response is, what would Jesus do in this situation?’”
Okay, okay. Let’s have a rational discussion about this. What would Jesus do? I think he wouldn’t want to worship with people who were worshipping someone other than God. He might hang out with them. He might eat Turkey with them. But I don’t think he’d want to worship with them.
My take: The church sounds like it was foolish not to investigate more closely the request to use its property, but it’d also be foolish to allow the worship of false gods on its property. Earlier today, I posted on the difference between blind pagan tolerance and Christian hospitality. In this case, if there was not going to be a worship service, I think the church should have let the event take place. But knowing that worship would be taking place, it did the right thing to refuse the event. The church might be catching heat from the world over and from the hip residents of Austin, but it will maintain its integrity all the same.














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back to top68 Comments to “Turkey worship”
How dumb do you have to be not to know what “interfaith” means? If that’s the sort of leadership the church has, it doesn’t have any integrity to lose.
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Ha! Stephen, you beat me too it.
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Disappointing and sad. As I pointed out in another blog last week, why does it always seem to be conservative Christians who raise a fuss about everything? It makes me wonder if there is anyone that conservative Christians can get along with? Why must y’all argue and fight with everyone? This is another fiasco like the church who denied the family a funeral in Texas a few months back because the guy was gay.
Here we’re supposed to be celebrating a holiday on thanksgiving. Now it’s been turned into an uproar in Austin, TX. I’m sure before it’s over, Bill-O will have a special on “The War on Thanksgiving”. Fox News will have Ann Coulter on screaming that we should kill the Muslims instead of worship with them…sigh!
Finally, how could these people not know what “interfaith” means?
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Yep, they shoulda known what “interfaith” means, and made themselves look foolish for not.
But Anlir, if you believe something is right, and are offered the opportunity to celebrate it alongside something that you consider its very antithesis so that the distinction is blurred, would you not say, “thanks for thinking of me, but no”?
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My friend and I are both dog lovers, but he owns a pug, and I own an, um, mixed breed. He and his family love their pug, and have even (so they tell me) attended a pug-o-rama (a sort of PugCon).
Imagine me showing up with my mixed breed and attempting to enter her in the dog show. “Nice dog,” they might say, “and we mean that. But she’s not a pug. So no.” Now imagine me kicking and screaming about how intolerant those pugians are.
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RR,
Like the funeral I mentioned, this is something (as I understand it) that was scheduled. The interfaith service was not a surprise. It was not sprung on them at the last minute. Common decency says you go ahead with it. As Ms. Manners would say, it’s “tacky, tacky, tacky” to back out now”.
There have been plenty of things in my life that I have been invited to, where I made a commitment to go. Then I found out the details and I was between a rock and a hard place. Sure I could have lied and feigned sickness or a pre-existing engagement. But that would be wrong. So I was stuck going. I grinned and beared it. Sometimes I said “I will never do this again!”
For example, someone invited me to their graduation from college once. I told them I would come. Then I found out it was in a church, which was going to have a service and the whole deal (preaching, offering, etc.). I could have backed out or refused to go, but I didn’t. I survived the experience.
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Anlir,
But what about something you feel as strongly about as “conservative Christians” do their faith and their worship services? Funerals and graduation ceremonies hardly fall into that category – each being more of a social obligation, which may or may not have religious content. I’ve been to both kinds but always attended more as a friend offering condolences or congrats than as seeking an opportunity to worship.
I’m presume the church in Austin felt that their “Thanksgiving service” fell into the worship category rather than an interfaith holiday festival of some sort.
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Anlir: it sounds like you handled the awkward situation graciously.
I think a different response is called for by this church, however. A Christian church’s whole reason for being is to point people to Jesus Christ, and when this one recognized that it was involved in something that radically strayed from that purpose it was right to put on the brakes.
We already agree that they shouldn’t have found themselves in this predicament, and we might also agree on ways they could ameliorate it (perhaps by apologizing for the confusion and helping the interfaith group find a suitable location for their event) but this is not a time for them to go along with something that violates everything they are supposed to stand for.
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RR,
I understand your point about what the Christian church’s mission is. But that isn’t the point of the Thanksgiving service. It’s a time to be thankful, without regard to one’s particular faith. It was scheduled and advertised as an interfaith gathering for the Thanksgiving holiday. It’s not a time for any one church to put forward their religion. That isn’t the purpose of it.
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OK, Anlir, but if you truly understand what the Christian church’s mission is, you will also understand that thankfulness with a proper object IS a violation of that mission.
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aack, that should be “thankfulness without a proper object” …
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RR,
One more point, if you will kindly indulge me:
For Thanksgiving I will be in a gathering that will include both Christians and non-Christians. A prayer will without a doubt be said. Now I don’t pray to a personal God as some of them do. But I will sit there quietly while they pray because it’s the civil and decent thing to do. I could refuse to come into the room while they pray. I could announce to all that I’m not going to pray because I don’t believe in their God. I think that would be rude and unkind to do such a thing.
One doesn’t have to agree with everything that is said and done.
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Right away, as many others have said, what part of interfaith do they not understand. Perhaps interfaith to some evangelicals means Catholic and Protestant.
Any group which claims exclusionary truth can honestly wonder at the rationale behind worshiping with those who deny this truth. However, Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday such as Easter or Christmas. In fact, giving thanks goes beyond cultural barriers, thus giving thanks together is a way for different communities to acknowledge and tolerate each other. Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhist are not denying their truth when they worship together but they are acknowledging the need to give thanks.
By refusing to celebrate Thanksgiving with other cultural and religious communities, the evangelicals create greater barriers than is necessary.
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For example, someone invited me to their graduation from college once. I told them I would come. Then I found out it was in a church, which was going to have a service and the whole deal (preaching, offering, etc.). I could have backed out or refused to go, but I didn’t. I survived the experience.
Aw, doggone it Anlir, you’re a saint!
Anyone ever notice that Anlir, while constantly making snide remarks about the “incivility” on WoW, is always badmouthing Christians and varous WoW regulars? I guess it’s only incivility when people criticize liberals and non-Christian religions.
He’s the same guy who said it’s “treacherous” for gays to have to call a church and find out whether they believe what the Bible says about sodomites, or reject it.
A tad hysterical and overwrought, to say the least.
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HRW, whether or not Thanksgiving is a religious holiday, consideration must be given to how it will be celebrated. Consider a group of people from different religions trying to agree on a prayer they can recite together, for instance. For the Christian, non-Trinitarian prayer is blasphemous; it attempts to refashion God into something He has told us in His Word that He is not. And for the non-Christian with scruples, making such a prayer in the name of Jesus would also be highly problematic (for no other religion believes that Jesus Christ is the sole Mediator between God and man).
I’m not at all against friendships with non-Christians (I do have some!) nor am I against all co-belligerence involving Christians and people of other faiths. But at the level of the “interfaith worship service,” insurmountable problems arise.
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First off, I find it amazing that they didn’t know the clear meaning of the word “interfaith”
Secondly,
“thankfulness without a proper object IS a violation of that mission” ?
How or why is that so?
Personally, though I find most “interfaith” services kind of blandly generic, in practice they seem to consist of little more than a speaker from each denomination or faith getting up, and saying “Thank you, God” or “Thank you, Jesus” or “Thank you, Allah” for the blessings you bestow on us.
How that is in the least offensive, really escapes me. These people strike me as simply being divisive
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I attended a lot of interfaith Thanksgiving services while I was growing up. There weren’t any Muslims, so far as I know – not because they wouldn’t have been welcome but presumably because none lived in that area back then. Churches and synagogues took turns holding the services, and there was nothing specifically Jewish or Christian in the service, simply prayers of thanks to “God.”
I couldn’t tell from the article whether this service would be pretty much like that, or if there would be any elements specific to any of the faiths participating. There was mention of space being provided for Muslim worship, but that could mean an area of the building, not part of the joint service.
I have mixed feelings about such services. On the one hand, that kind of worship of a generic “God” is not particularly different from many public prayers, in places where that is still allowed/practiced. Each person presumably is thinking of it as addressed to God as that person understands God to be. I don’t think that my participation in an event where there is a prayer to a generic “God” means I am promoting idolatry, but it’s not promoting worship of God through Jesus Christ either.
My impression overall from those interfaith worship services I attended as a child was that there was little significant difference between any of the churches or the synagogues. Those that participated, of course, did not think there were significant differences, and that the differences were mostly of style, not substance.
It was not until I attended a fundamentalist Baptist church as a teenager that I found people who thought it really mattered what anyone believed. Unfortunately, they went to the opposite extreme, refusing to have fellowship with any church that did not agree on everything from using KJV only to being pre-trib, pre-mill, etc. (They say that otherwise they would be saying that some truth is more important than other truth.)
The church I thought handled it best was one my husband and I attended in the early years of our marriage. It was part of a ministerial association that was specifically Christian, but included churches from a variety of denominations (those that wanted to be part of such a group, which did not include the local fundamentalist Baptist church). Our Presbyterian church and the nearby African-American Baptist church held joint services sometimes or had a pulpit exchange, and all the churches in the association participated in joint services for Good Friday and Thanksgiving.
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Yep, interfaith worship is unacceptable for Christians to participate in – this church did the right thing in not allowing idolatry on their grounds.
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Anlir-
I appreciate your insight but I think your analogy is off. Would it be rude and unkind for you to ask your host to offer a prayer to an impersonal god knowing their perception of God is different?
I agree that the Austin church was lazy, negligent, and ignorant but it’s similar to saying 2 wrongs make a right. But that is dependent on what you consider worthy of worship.
How about this scenario:
I walk up behind my wife, wrap my arms around her waist and start to whisper my intentions in her ear. The problem is it is (insert other female here: mother-in-law, aunt, wife’s friend, friends wife, take your pick). At that point, is it appropriate for me to continue what I started or would it be “rude and unkind” for me to stop?
If Christians believe they are the bride of Christ and God deserves their worship as the Creator, then their actions are appropriate regardless of Dear Abby’s opinion.
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“’thankfulness without a proper object IS a violation of that mission’ ?
“How or why is that so?”
For the orthodox Christian, it is in God in whom we live, and move, and have our being (Acts 17:28). Everything we could ever be thankful for comes from God by His grace. To not attribute good gifts back to their Giver is to deny God the glory that He is due.
Even many non-Christians have heard can answer what is arguably the most famous catechism question ever:
What is the chief end [primary purpose] of man?
To glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.
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DR’s got it right. Interfaith = Idolatry
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Christianleftist:
Easy question first.
Because genuine thanks requires some giver to whom you are grateful. Genuine thankfulness takes the giver as an object (in the grammatical sense) and is about appreciating the giver. Phony “thankfulness” focuses on myself, the recipient, and my feeling glad that I have this stuff.
Compare:
1) “Thank you for making dinner, honey.”
2) “I’m thankful that dinner was made.”
Your other question –
– has a more difficult answer. And it’s this:
Divisiveness is precisely the point.
It’s ugly, and I’d like to think it’s misguided (I’d much prefer C. S. Lewis’s more inclusive notion that Aslan may credit good done in the service of Tash), but I don’t think I can.
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Well one thing is for sure, I’ll bet other churches will think twice before having anything to do with this particular church again. It’s a perfect example of why many of us don’t go to church. We’re not interested in religious “apartheid”.
It’s a shame that some Christians find it necessary to ruin the holidays like this. Do you speak to your non-Christian family members? Do you tell them that you won’t come to their house for Thanksgiving because they’re not Christians? Do you refuse to welcome them into your home for the holiday because they’re not Christians?
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Some Democrat candidates are avoiding Fox News, claiming they don’t like their views, style, whatever. More comfy with their known, liberal media. Prefer to be safe at home in the Dem ghetto.
These Christians are doing the same. Avoid the other faiths. Don’t like their views, style, whatever. More comfy with folks of their known faith. Prefer to be safe at home in the Christian ghetto.
WWJD? I certainly don’t think he’d “cut and run”, like these folks are doing.
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Anlir, I appreciate what you have written. I really do. At that the church really blew it by not knowing what they were getting into and then by cancelling at the last minute. I hope that another venue can be found in time.
However, I don’t think you understand the convictions that go into the decision that this church made, and that other churches have had to make. It’s not just a matter of preference for the church; it’s a deeply-held core belief. Can you relate to that at all? Is there anything that is so important to you that you would violate the rules of ettiquette for it?
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Anlir,
RE: Religious “apartheid”.
Explain where in the history of man there ever has been a successful religious “gumbo” — a religion or societal-wide belief where anything, and everything, someone–anyone–claims as sanctified, holy and worthy of worship has been treated as such by the masses who are as gracious and all-inclusive as you would have us find you to be? Such inclusiveness you claim even though you choose to marginalize and thereby exclude as a subspecies “conservative Christians” with inflammatory labels such as “apartheid” and “shame”.
I’d suggest that “many of you” don’t attend any form of religious service because you are simply so enamored with yourself that there never could be a god, of any kind, you’d stoop to worship.
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Kyle A.,
Right off, none that I can think of, though I’m sure there is probably something floating out there that would so offend me that I wouldn’t go. Ok – I just thought of one: a NAMBLA meeting. If someone invited me and disguised what it was for, and then I found out – I would flat out refuse to go. But that’s a far cry from an interfaith Thanksgiving service, which is celebrating a national holiday. No one is being asked to forswear their particular faith or denomination to attend. It’s not an endorsement of any particular faith.
Maybe I’m stupid. I liked it better when Americans got along with each other, especially on celebrations. It’s gotten to where I almost wish there were no holidays because everyone just argues and fights over stuff. I’m actually glad when January 1st gets here and it’s all over.
You know what holiday I like? Arbor Day. Who can argue with planting a tree?
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Anlir-
Is there a reason why you ignored post 19? I’m new to the community so I’m not sure about protocol but I offered a more accurate analogy.
KyleA, Austin’s largest synagogue, Congregation Beth Israel, has now offered to host the celebration.
http://www.keyetv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=ec614794-5e96-49ce-b43c-ecf7902974dd
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Hi Panther,
Welcome to the WorldMag blogging community! We hope you will stick around.
I apologize – I didn’t ignore your post deliberately.
Would it be rude and unkind for you to ask your host to offer a prayer to an impersonal god knowing their perception of God is different?
If you mean me personally, yes it would be rude. But I’m not sure what part of “interfaith” this church didn’t understand? Now if this is a brand new church with a brand new minister, one might excuse them for not knowing what they were getting in for. But common sense tells most people that “interfaith” means more than one faith.
In regards to your analogy, it doesn’t hold for a couple of reasons:
1. The word “interfaith” is clearly in the celebration.
2. This is not a new event. It wasn’t “sprung” on the church suddenly without notice.
3. It seems like a “separatist” church would run like the dickens from anything with the word “interfaith” on it.
The gracious thing would have been for the church to have gone forward with the event, while issuing a statement clarifying their stance.
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Oops! I forgot to turn the italics off. It should have ended before “In regards to your analogy…”. Sorry about that!
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Apartheid Arbor Day. A concept whose time has come. The Bible has a lot to say about trees. In fact the Bible begins and ends with one. Without the Bible we don’t even have a reference point for where trees come from, why they grow or what they are. Even Arbor Day, like Thanksgiving, must be thoroughly and unapologetically biblical.
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I don’t think that Jesus would say “Praise be to Allah, the magnificant, the beneficent and Mohammed was his prophet.” Let’s remember that the Muslims say the Bible is a lie. I fail to see why believing Christians must be forced to demean and degrade their beliefs to accommodate the Muslims or any other religions for that matter, certainly not in a country that says it believes in the free exercise of sincerely held religious beliefs. Many of you expect these Christians to roll over on their beliefs to accommodate a secular understanding of the Thanksgiving holiday. You can be generic all you want, but you have no right to expect these Christians to accommodate you. In this country, they can believe what they want to believe. So far, at least.
You may recall that a Lutheran minister was censured for praying with non-Lutherans at an interfaith program right after 9/11 hosted by Oprah. His synod told him he had no business doing that.
I saw the “antidote to the cult of tolerance thread.” The people here who are insisting that these Christians violate their sincerely held beliefs are the ones I see as intolerant.
I will also remind you that Christ said he came as a sword. A sword divides. Christians are not called to accommodate the world, remember? I can’t fault Christians who can stand firm for their beliefs.
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Given the tragic history of religiously motivated warfare throughout the world, I think those who refuse to even listen or sit next to someone of another faith are profoundly irresponsible.
If your god is so all-encompassing that neither he nor you can tolerate merely hearing another message, I think you are most likely insecure enough to send send in the bombs one day.
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Yes, wasn’t it awful the way America came together after 9/11? What was that Lutheran minister thinking?
No doubt, what we need is more imagery of Christians and the sword. I’m sure that will bring reassurances to the people of the world that the two largest religions on the planet are about to make peace. Not.
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This church did not refuse to “even listen or sit next to someone.” They just said the place for prayers by non-Christians to another god is not on this church’s property. In this country, they have a right to do that, Arcadia. They do not have to compromise their beliefs, nor should they give in to people like you who are trying to guilt them into it.
This is the United States. We have a First Amendment. It has a free exercise clause in it, AND it has a free assocation clause in it. One can associate without forcing a compromise of one’s sincerely held beliefs. These people do not believe their church should accommodate prayers to another god (Allah). They have a right to believe that. This does not mean that they won’t associate in another forum with the Muslims. How you make this leap to bombs is outrageous and insulting! Not to mention unAmerican.
It seems to me that the non-Christians here are continually demanding that Christians must compromise their faith and accommodate sin and now you want Christians to worship of a false god. There’s a commandment against that: thou shalt have NO other gods before me. It seems the only way Christians can make the atheists and secularists (and God know who else) happy is if they practice their faith by abandoning it.
Not gonna happen.
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One does weep for the hope of humanity not destroying each other over religious faith.
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Anlir, you misunderstand — as usual — what the sword is. It means you have to make a choice. We all know what yours is. But just because you can’t decide for Christ doesn’t mean no one else can. And you have a right in this country to not believe in Christ if that is your desire. The law says you can do that, and I respect that right as a fellow American. But you don’t want to respect this church’s right to exercise its beliefs.
Jesus kicked the moneychangers out of the temple, angrily telling them that they’d made God’s house into a den of thieves. I think he’d be pretty darn bent out of shape if a church — God’s house — allowed worship of another god.
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God warned us to have “no other gods before me” – He didn’t say we could make an exception and all meet together to worship as a group to everyones god –
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3
Having an Ecumenical/Unity service is: relating to, involving, or promoting the unity of different Christian churches and groups. Many churches who are liberal see nothing wrong with their ‘unity’ but those who are Believers/Born Again would find plenty wrong with it. We all have our own Churches, there is no need to gather in one large group.
Satan would love nothing more than to see us all ‘melt’ into a group of ‘luke warm Churches’ –
Those who are Evangelical would have no reason to participate in a service with those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as Savior, those who worship another god, or gods, those who are in cults. There would be no point to it.
Many families have members and friends who do not believe the same way, but have Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners together. Having dinner with someone, is very different than Worshipping as some sort of ‘UNITY’ –
A Thanksgiving service is to me,…… a service of thanksgiving to our LORD, no one else -
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Don’t believe I’ve said a church doesn’t have the right to do whatever it wants. The church can tell the entire city of Austin to take a flying leap if it wants.
It’s a loss for integrity, civility, unity, and the spirit of Thanksgiving is all I’m saying.
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It’s not a “loss for integrity” to stand for what you believe. When it comes to Worship of God, its a Churches right to stand firmly behind their beliefs -
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For those who think an interfaith service should not be allowed, am I understanding that you think that allowing people to give thanks according to their faith is tantamount to idolatry?
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NJ L – 37
You are RIGHT!
I can’t imagine what the LORD Jesus Christ would do if HE came upon a church that had every cult, religion, god, all represented in a Thanksgiving service – I wouldn’t want to be involved in that service for anything -
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CoyoteBlue
It should be allowed, just not in my Church, which I have no worries over, they would never participate in such a service.
If a church wants to have a dozen religions present for a ‘unity’ thanksgiving, thats their choice, I just want nothing to do with it.
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Looking back over my comments on this particular thread, I believe I have done a good job of “representing” as they say, except for one thing:
Comment #23, where I said “religious apartheid”.
That was unkind and I apologize.
Other than that, I think I made my point as well as I can. So I leave y’all to your own devices whilst I go eat and read that no-good, liberal rag, the NY Times.
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Coyote Blue:
Worshiping the wrong god is absolutely idolatry–by definition. Yes, believers allow others to do it–but not on church property. I personally wouldn’t invite a nonbeliever to offer the Thanksgiving prayer at my home, either, nor to pray at all on my property.
Anlir, why don’t you simply admit you don’t understand this, rather than getting all huffy about it? Would you censure a group of vegetarians for not wanting a group of people on their property eating steak? Or a pro-life doctor not wanting Planned Parenthood to meet in his waiting room?
If you really BELIEVE something, then naturally you don’t want people with opposite beliefs to be “welcome” on your property in a public way. One-on-one interaction, sure, but giving them a public platform, and seeming to condone their wrong beliefs, is losing your own credibility and, yes, integrity.
By the way, with all the stuff about “didn’t they understand about ‘interfaith’?” It’s possible the person who originally received the request didn’t really hear that part, but heard the request to hold a worship service, and assumed that meant worshiping the one true God. Awakward to uninvite people now, yes–but absolutely necessary.
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It’s the HEIGHT of integrity to stand for what you believe!
CoyoteBlue, you miss the point, too. As Victoria noted, if a church wants to do this, who cares? Who really cares? I don’t object to that. Let them knock themselves out.
But THIS church doesn’t want to engage in 1) what is essentially a secular version of a Thanksgiving, and more importantly, 2) the worship false gods.
I really fail to comprehend what you fail to comprehend. Why can’t this church exercise its constitutional rights? Because you don’t like what they believe? What is it?
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We (Radical Agnostics) politely request that you not come to our Thansgiving Service.
As we don’t have a deity that we thank, it would probably be stressful for you.
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Anil,
What if you invited a group of friends over for dinner, everyone was going to bring meat for the grill and all would have a good time. Then you found out your Chinese friends planned on slaughtering a dog to share with everyone. Would you allow something that goes against everything you believe to happen in YOUR HOUSE?
Maybe you should have asked questions before extending the invite but now you have to say no to the gathering.
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Hey, some people walk ‘em and some people wok ‘em.
SCR!
(Sorry, Couldn’t Resist)
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The “Lutheran” issue mentioned above occurred in my denomination, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS). The Pastor, Dr. David Benke, was actually President of the Atlantic District. It was a difficult time for us, for the same reasons as are discussed on this thread. There are two quotes from the letter from the President of the Synod that I think are helpful:
“Not every occasion where worship takes place is necessarily a manifestation of
church fellowship. There are situations where discretion is appropriate…”
“Situations such as those that have confronted us in recent days often call for difficult
decisions. While not everyone would make the same decisions, I encourage you, as the
above statement indicates, ‘to let charity prevail.’”
blessings
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Very funny, Random. What is it George Washington said in his first Thanksgiving proclamation? That we often forget the Source of our blessings? You seem to miss the whole point behind Thanksgiving, so why have the dinner at all?
For people who always remind the Christians here that there is a Constitution in this country, I’m surprised we haven’t read the opposing constitutional argument from the RAs. Nor is there a concession post hat they don’t have a constitutional leg to stand on. What we get is this snarky little post “politely” disinviting us to their non-thankful thanksgiving.
The RAs seem to have forgotten that it was the CHRISTIAN soldiers, the farmers, etc., in the colonies who actually fought the Revolution, and did the dying, to ensure our freedoms. At least be grateful for that.
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The prize for the best use of analogies and metaphors goes to Travis. The most pertinent observation award goes to Arcadia for noting the demand for exclusivity and isolation originates in insecurity. The radical agnostics should file a lawsuit claiming discrimination for not allowing them to participate by thanking their fellow beings and not acknowledging any other factors. Random you really should trademark the phrase, licensing fees may someday cover our membership fees.
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HRW, what you RAs always fail to comprehend about Christians is that we are secure in the knowledge of who Christ is. Christians do not demand anything. You either choose Christ or you don’t. Your choice. No one forces you.
Read your history, HRW. Look up Pilgrims. Maybe it will humble you.
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HRW
Anyone can worship as they wish, or not at all, the US has complete ‘FREEDOM of RELIGION’ and that means we can all do it our own way.
What’s your problem? – can’t you accept this freedom which the US has fought for? There are no silly prizes for anyone -
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One of my seminar papers in graduate school had to do with the descriptive language used by the Puritans in founding the Plymouth colony. The metaphor of darkness and the imagery of the savage is everywhere in the literature. As a result, they felt a need to destroy and conquer that which they feared. Not only were they physically afraid but spiritually. They wrote and acted on a fear of losing their community, especially the youth, to the carefree less stringent native religion. “Going native” was a constant fear of the leadership as they sought to control the colony. They far from secure in their faith.
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Victoria — We’ve been down this road before — you don’t seriously think I’m advocating a civil suit nor do you seriously think I would deny the right of this church to bar their doors to the unclean. However, my statements were a lead-up for the argument that agnostics are thankful and can thank somebody ie their fellow humans. All this in reference to a debate occurring over several threads this week-end. Style, metaphor and satire all used as literary devices to achieve a certain message. Attack the message not the device.
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HRW writes: “One of my seminar papers in graduate school ….”
Now I get it. Humility isn’t in your dictionary.
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Now personal attacks are not the means to communicate a difference of opinion. Quite clearly I have read the Puritan literature and quite clearly I have argued for a reading of fear. When savagery, darkness and going native are the some of the most frequent expressions, fear is a simple conclusion to make. Now based on your knowledge of the Puritans please demonstrate the strength of their faith and their willingness to test their faith through exposure to other faiths in the Netherlands beyond merely fleeing at the sight of tolerance.
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NJLawyer,
Thanks for reminding the others why Thanksgiving was instituted in the first place. It is NOT a secular holiday in the sense that it is without religion.
It is NOT a celebration of the thanks given by the Pilgrims to the Indians, as revisionist historians want us to believe.
It IS a day set aside for thanking the God worshiped in the Christian faith, for His provision & protection, etc.
Coyote Blue #41 – Christians are often attacked on this blog for using terms that reflect their beliefs. One such term is “idolatry.”
But Christians are not the only faith group who hold such a belief. Judaism & Islam also believe that to worship any other deity than what they worship is idolatry.
So, yes. If an interfaith ceremony, if it were not limited to different Christian groups, would certainly be a place where idolatry is practiced.
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After reviewing the website of the Austin Area Interfaith Alliance, I note the following:
1. The name of the sponsoring organization has the word “Interfaith” in it’s name.
2. The name of the event is called the “Austin Interfaith Thanksgiving”.
3. The event is in it’s 23rd year.
4. The event was to be held in a sports complex of Hyde Park Baptist Church, not it’s sanctuary.
The claim that Hyde Park didn’t know what they were agreeing to is preposterous.
This is like inviting the College Republicans to meet in your home and then claiming you didn’t know there would be college students present.
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Anlir
Do you not understand what Bible Believing, Born Again Christians stand for? I’m sure you don’t since you are not one of us.
We as Believers don’t believe in any other god, except the God of the Bible, so in essence, we would not worship with, nor would be pray to, or celebrate a Thanksgiving service to God Almighty with others praying to false gods.
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The church did the right thing. Interfaith gatherings intended to dialog are one thing, gatherings to worship are another. Interfaith worship is idolatry, pure and simple.
Anlir, your analogy doesn’t fit the realities and significance of worship. In my view, the movie “Crimson Tide” is a better analogy because the issues are the same. The question is, who is the true captain of the ship? To whom shall the crew give their allegiance?
Interfaith worship is an oxymoron because each faith gives their allegiance to a different captain. Muslims give their allegiance to Allah, Christians and Jews give their allegiance to Yahweh.
I pray for a day like 1Kings 18.
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HRW – 56
NJL, FP
Easy now. I asked for clarification of what some people are saying. Never said that the church was not within its rights, nor would I say that. I was asking to see if I understood the position correctly. So NJL, stop assuming that you think you know what I think before you ask. (Which incidently is what I was trying to do — so sorry to ask people if I understood them correctly.) Asking a question should not imply criticism. I think folks on this blog have seen my writing well enough to know that when I wish to be critical, I have no problem so stating.
Victoria and Cheryl D
Thank you for clarifying without assuming non-existent underlying meanings.
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Given the claims of divinely endorsed exclusivity and sacred ground, does anybody here want to take a shot at solving the problem of the Temple Mount, which is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths so far?
“You shall not pray on my sacred ground” is a pretty shallow concept on which to hang a single life or a war.
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The muslims owe the baptists an apology for putting them in an awkward position, while really the baptists should be praised for making a “discovery” about the world and its sad customs.
NJLAWYER and FP make excellent points about the Pilgrims. At the First Thanksgiving, the Pilgrim Fathers prevented the Indians from offering thanks at the feast tables to their Great Spirit (so called) and chased them a godly distance away into the woods until they concluded their heathen cries, after which the Pilgrims welcomed the Indians back in Christian hospitality.
On the other hand, the Pilgrims were far too shrewd to breach a contract when that required them to forfeit income. Money is good. The Pilgrims would have understood that payment of money or other consideration by the muslims cleansed the baptists of providing material support to heathen worship. The Pilgrims could have pointed to Scripture: “My house shall be a house of prayer for all qualified renters.”
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This is a hilarious thread to read. ANLIR, of all posters, presumes to understand what an evangelical church should or should not allow on their property (whether it’s a sanctuary or gym, it’s still church-owned property — the “church” is a group of people, not a set of buildings).
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don’t care about ’satire’ or its many literary contradictions with twisted words as to the meaning of a statement, OR a weak answer to survive the truth – It’s not the device, it’s the contradictory words, which any educated person recognizes, which can take a statement, then refuted, and make it something else – GET IT?
No
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