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	<title>Comments on: Whirled Views 11.21</title>
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		<title>By: TJ</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241623</link>
		<dc:creator>TJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You are correct, Pauline. From one perspective, there is no difference (ontologically, we might say) between the Israelites and the pagans around them. The only difference is that God set His faithful love upon one and not the other. Did God behave unjustly in either case? Absolutely not, unless one has a low and twisted view of sin and rebellion against God. To put it another way, the Egyptians and Canaanites got what we all deserve: justice. The Israelites received mercy (btw, the unrepentant Israelites got justice too!). It is only if one makes &quot;demands&quot; of God and attempts to hold God to some arbitrary, anthropocentric, antonymous standard that we become critical of God. That sets us as the judges, which we have no right to be, and pretends that we have suddenly become wiser than God.

The only one in human history who did not get &quot;justice&quot; was the Son of God Himself, who had our sins imputed to Him. He is the only One who had any right to complain, and yet He willingly went to the cross for our salvation (so that God can be both just and justifier, Paul would say). At the cross we see both the justice of God and the mercy of God. Those who reject the cross get what they deserved anyway, and those who come to Christ get what they never deserved, but rather what God freely provides.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are correct, Pauline. From one perspective, there is no difference (ontologically, we might say) between the Israelites and the pagans around them. The only difference is that God set His faithful love upon one and not the other. Did God behave unjustly in either case? Absolutely not, unless one has a low and twisted view of sin and rebellion against God. To put it another way, the Egyptians and Canaanites got what we all deserve: justice. The Israelites received mercy (btw, the unrepentant Israelites got justice too!). It is only if one makes &#8220;demands&#8221; of God and attempts to hold God to some arbitrary, anthropocentric, antonymous standard that we become critical of God. That sets us as the judges, which we have no right to be, and pretends that we have suddenly become wiser than God.</p>
<p>The only one in human history who did not get &#8220;justice&#8221; was the Son of God Himself, who had our sins imputed to Him. He is the only One who had any right to complain, and yet He willingly went to the cross for our salvation (so that God can be both just and justifier, Paul would say). At the cross we see both the justice of God and the mercy of God. Those who reject the cross get what they deserved anyway, and those who come to Christ get what they never deserved, but rather what God freely provides.
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		<title>By: Pauline</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241518</link>
		<dc:creator>Pauline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 02:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>TJ,
My husband certainly is dismayed with the direction Jack Rogers has gone in recent years. From what I remember, discussions of Rogers have primarily been on the subject of homosexuality, and Rogers&#039; change of heart regarding it, so that he supports ordaining non-celibate homosexuals. To support his position, of course, Rogers has to change how he approaches Scripture, though I don&#039;t know details of his current teaching on it.

The difficulty of the approach to Scripture that emphasizes &quot;the point the writer was making&quot; is determining what the point was. I think we agree that paraphrasing Jesus&#039; words does not change their basic meaning, nor does rearranging the order of event. But someone - such as Rogers - could suggest that Paul&#039;s point in Romans 1 is to show how sin has corrupted everyone, not to teach that homosexuality is a sin. 

That doesn&#039;t mean that approach to Scripture is wrong - just that it can easily be misused. I was just reading today through part of Exodus, about the plagues in Egypt, and thinking how it&#039;s hard for us today not to see God as having been unfair to the average Egyptian, who wasn&#039;t responsible for the Pharaoh&#039;s actions (after all, even Pharaoh&#039;s advisers started telling him to let the Israelites go, but Pharaoh didn&#039;t listen to them). What made the average Israelite any better than the average Egyptian?

At which point I remembered that the answer was &quot;nothing,&quot; and turned to the section in Deuteronomy where the people are told to remember that they&#039;re not being given the land of Canaan because of their own righteousness, but because of the wickedness of the Canaanites. Which still doesn&#039;t make the story of the slaughter of whole communities any easier to read, and it&#039;s tempting to say that &quot;the point the writer is making&quot; is about God&#039;s faithfulness to his people, and that what happened to other people in the process is just recording history, not necessarily what God really wanted to happen. But the text doesn&#039;t seem to really leave that option open, no matter how much I might like it to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TJ,<br />
My husband certainly is dismayed with the direction Jack Rogers has gone in recent years. From what I remember, discussions of Rogers have primarily been on the subject of homosexuality, and Rogers&#8217; change of heart regarding it, so that he supports ordaining non-celibate homosexuals. To support his position, of course, Rogers has to change how he approaches Scripture, though I don&#8217;t know details of his current teaching on it.</p>
<p>The difficulty of the approach to Scripture that emphasizes &#8220;the point the writer was making&#8221; is determining what the point was. I think we agree that paraphrasing Jesus&#8217; words does not change their basic meaning, nor does rearranging the order of event. But someone &#8211; such as Rogers &#8211; could suggest that Paul&#8217;s point in Romans 1 is to show how sin has corrupted everyone, not to teach that homosexuality is a sin. </p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t mean that approach to Scripture is wrong &#8211; just that it can easily be misused. I was just reading today through part of Exodus, about the plagues in Egypt, and thinking how it&#8217;s hard for us today not to see God as having been unfair to the average Egyptian, who wasn&#8217;t responsible for the Pharaoh&#8217;s actions (after all, even Pharaoh&#8217;s advisers started telling him to let the Israelites go, but Pharaoh didn&#8217;t listen to them). What made the average Israelite any better than the average Egyptian?</p>
<p>At which point I remembered that the answer was &#8220;nothing,&#8221; and turned to the section in Deuteronomy where the people are told to remember that they&#8217;re not being given the land of Canaan because of their own righteousness, but because of the wickedness of the Canaanites. Which still doesn&#8217;t make the story of the slaughter of whole communities any easier to read, and it&#8217;s tempting to say that &#8220;the point the writer is making&#8221; is about God&#8217;s faithfulness to his people, and that what happened to other people in the process is just recording history, not necessarily what God really wanted to happen. But the text doesn&#8217;t seem to really leave that option open, no matter how much I might like it to.
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		<title>By: TJ</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241449</link>
		<dc:creator>TJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Pauline, I am glad you clarified about your husband and Barth. However, my point still stands about those who will use &quot;infallible&quot; as an end run around &quot;inerrant.&quot; I would much rather you say that your husband has distanced himself from the likes of Jack Rogers! Seriously, though, I know little about Donald McKim, but there is little doubt in my mind that Jack Rogers has apostatized from the Christian faith. I hope I am wrong on that and he is brought to repentance. He has done much to damage your denomination.

I would agree that the gospels are often not chronological in nature (neither are some of the historical events recorded in the epistles, with Galatians 2 being a strong possibility; I would argue that Acts is chronologically driven, however) but are thematically arranged in several cases (though they are, to some degree, chronological on a broad scale -- the birth narratives are at the beginning and the death, burial, and resurrection are at the end!), particularly in Matthew&#039;s gospel. This was a common writing method of the day, and it is silly to insist they confirm to modern Western literary standards. On the other hand, this is a far cry from saying they are not historically accurate (which I know is not what you are saying).

As far as the sayings of Jesus go, in some cases He may have spoken on a particular subject on more than one occasion (I have done this, of course), so there may different wordings because of this. Other times, some of the sayings are summarized (the Sermon on the Mount takes about 10 minutes to read; my own sermons are 3x that, and I&#039;m pretty Jesus would have spoken for longer!). In other occasions, the gospel writers might use different words for theological emphasis in recording the written details in an account (such as recording synonymous words for &quot;Lord&quot; in some of the accounts). Inspiration (and this was our author&#039;s point) does not hinge on any of these things. What is important (which is what I believe you are saying) is that the words of Jesus, the historical narratives, etc. are faithfully recorded (theologically, historically, etc.). Furthermore, the doctrine of inspiration is meant to extend to the documents themselves (i.e., that the Holy Spirit guided the NT authors in the events, word choice, etc.) that they recorded. I am oversimplifying this, of course, but that is the general gist.

To use a somewhat modern analogy: if I read a biography of Abraham Lincoln (or even a combination of biographies), I would not expect that bio to record ever single word that Lincoln uttered during his life or every event he lived through. Even if the bio did not include every word he uttered at the Gettysburg Address, that would not mean I thought it to be inaccurate or &quot;untruthful.&quot; If we do not expect this from literature in our time, I&#039;m sure you would agree that it is an unreasonable expectation for literature 2000 years ago. And this is not taking into account the supernatural aspects of preservation, etc. with the NT documents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pauline, I am glad you clarified about your husband and Barth. However, my point still stands about those who will use &#8220;infallible&#8221; as an end run around &#8220;inerrant.&#8221; I would much rather you say that your husband has distanced himself from the likes of Jack Rogers! Seriously, though, I know little about Donald McKim, but there is little doubt in my mind that Jack Rogers has apostatized from the Christian faith. I hope I am wrong on that and he is brought to repentance. He has done much to damage your denomination.</p>
<p>I would agree that the gospels are often not chronological in nature (neither are some of the historical events recorded in the epistles, with Galatians 2 being a strong possibility; I would argue that Acts is chronologically driven, however) but are thematically arranged in several cases (though they are, to some degree, chronological on a broad scale &#8212; the birth narratives are at the beginning and the death, burial, and resurrection are at the end!), particularly in Matthew&#8217;s gospel. This was a common writing method of the day, and it is silly to insist they confirm to modern Western literary standards. On the other hand, this is a far cry from saying they are not historically accurate (which I know is not what you are saying).</p>
<p>As far as the sayings of Jesus go, in some cases He may have spoken on a particular subject on more than one occasion (I have done this, of course), so there may different wordings because of this. Other times, some of the sayings are summarized (the Sermon on the Mount takes about 10 minutes to read; my own sermons are 3x that, and I&#8217;m pretty Jesus would have spoken for longer!). In other occasions, the gospel writers might use different words for theological emphasis in recording the written details in an account (such as recording synonymous words for &#8220;Lord&#8221; in some of the accounts). Inspiration (and this was our author&#8217;s point) does not hinge on any of these things. What is important (which is what I believe you are saying) is that the words of Jesus, the historical narratives, etc. are faithfully recorded (theologically, historically, etc.). Furthermore, the doctrine of inspiration is meant to extend to the documents themselves (i.e., that the Holy Spirit guided the NT authors in the events, word choice, etc.) that they recorded. I am oversimplifying this, of course, but that is the general gist.</p>
<p>To use a somewhat modern analogy: if I read a biography of Abraham Lincoln (or even a combination of biographies), I would not expect that bio to record ever single word that Lincoln uttered during his life or every event he lived through. Even if the bio did not include every word he uttered at the Gettysburg Address, that would not mean I thought it to be inaccurate or &#8220;untruthful.&#8221; If we do not expect this from literature in our time, I&#8217;m sure you would agree that it is an unreasonable expectation for literature 2000 years ago. And this is not taking into account the supernatural aspects of preservation, etc. with the NT documents.
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		<title>By: Travis Birkenstock</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241421</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis Birkenstock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>75 - Here&#039;s an update.

&lt;blockquote&gt;

Nov 22 &#8212; China reversed a decision today to block a United States aircraft carrier from making a four-day port call in Hong Kong, but the change of heart by Beijing officials came too late to stop the ship from returning to its base in Japan and missing families who had flown to Hong Kong to celebrate the Thanksgiving holiday.

&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>75 &#8211; Here&#8217;s an update.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Nov 22 &#8212; China reversed a decision today to block a United States aircraft carrier from making a four-day port call in Hong Kong, but the change of heart by Beijing officials came too late to stop the ship from returning to its base in Japan and missing families who had flown to Hong Kong to celebrate the Thanksgiving holiday.</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: Victoria</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241387</link>
		<dc:creator>Victoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;b&gt;Late BREAKING NEWS 
China blocks USS Kitty Hawk carrier from Hong Kong&lt;/b&gt;

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2122835820071122?feedType=RSS&amp;feedName=topNews&amp;rpc=22&amp;sp=true

HONG KONG (Reuters) -&lt;b&gt; China has refused permission for a U.S. aircraft carrier and accompanying vessels to visit Hong Kong for a long-planned Thanksgiving holiday visit, the U.S. State Department said on Wednesday.&lt;/b&gt;

Let&#039;s remember them all in prayer, as one child said in the article &quot;I miss my daddy,&quot; said Mark Curry, 14, whose father is aboard one of the vessels. &quot;We thought he was going to be there, but we don&#039;t know what actually happened. I was just depressed.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Late BREAKING NEWS<br />
China blocks USS Kitty Hawk carrier from Hong Kong</b></p>
<p><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2122835820071122?feedType=RSS&amp;feedName=topNews&amp;rpc=22&amp;sp=true" rel="nofollow">http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2122835820071122?feedType=RSS&amp;feedName=topNews&amp;rpc=22&amp;sp=true</a></p>
<p>HONG KONG (Reuters) -<b> China has refused permission for a U.S. aircraft carrier and accompanying vessels to visit Hong Kong for a long-planned Thanksgiving holiday visit, the U.S. State Department said on Wednesday.</b></p>
<p>Let&#8217;s remember them all in prayer, as one child said in the article &#8220;I miss my daddy,&#8221; said Mark Curry, 14, whose father is aboard one of the vessels. &#8220;We thought he was going to be there, but we don&#8217;t know what actually happened. I was just depressed.&#8221;
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		<title>By: pam_w</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241384</link>
		<dc:creator>pam_w</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>HAVE A HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!  :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HAVE A HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!  <img src='http://online.worldmag.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' />
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241376</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Right Cheryl, except that I&#039;m not convinced that proper evidence has been given that it&#039;s &quot;from God to us&quot;.  It&#039;s simply presumed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right Cheryl, except that I&#8217;m not convinced that proper evidence has been given that it&#8217;s &#8220;from God to us&#8221;.  It&#8217;s simply presumed.
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		<title>By: Cheryl D.</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241372</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Um, Stephen, not sure how to answer that. What other possible purpose could it have? Writing to keep Himself from being bored? To practice His writing skills? If it&#039;s from God, to us, then its purpose is communication. Right? If you gave an alternative possibility, I&#039;m curious. (Though I probably won&#039;t be back on here for the next couple days.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, Stephen, not sure how to answer that. What other possible purpose could it have? Writing to keep Himself from being bored? To practice His writing skills? If it&#8217;s from God, to us, then its purpose is communication. Right? If you gave an alternative possibility, I&#8217;m curious. (Though I probably won&#8217;t be back on here for the next couple days.)
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241370</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Haha.  I didn&#039;t even notice your second post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haha.  I didn&#8217;t even notice your second post!
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2007/11/21/whirled-views-1121/comment-page-2/#comment-241369</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Cheryl, on what basis do you declare that the Bible&#039;s &quot;purpose is to communicate to man&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheryl, on what basis do you declare that the Bible&#8217;s &#8220;purpose is to communicate to man&#8221;?
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