I am currently reading Garry Wills’s book Head and Heart Jon Rowe has mentioned this book also. Garry Wills is an unorthodox Catholic and an interesting historian.

There is much of interest in this book. As an immediate reaction to your message about absolutes, I was stirred by the beginning of Will’s book where he describes the hanging of Mary Dyer in 1660: A Quaker woman in her 40s, the mother of six.

Her crime was refusing to stop preaching in Massachusetts. They had taken her to be hung previously along with two younger Quaker men. The Puritans didn’t want to hang her. They forced her to watch the hanging of the other Quakers, in the hope it would convince her to repent and at least stop preaching (and stay in Rhode Island with her husband).

She continued to return to Massachusetts and to preach. Eventually the Puritans thought they had no other choice but to hang her, which they did six months later.

There is much more that is disturbing about this historical event that Wills covers in more detail than I can here.

The Protestant Puritans believed they were acting on the basis of their absolute values.

I have said, that the purpose of conservative Christians and people of various other flavors talking to each other should be to make each other uneasy.

I am uneasy about the problems of an ethics that is not based upon absolute values from God.

I think conservative Christians should be uneasy about how Christian belief in knowing absolute values led them to actions such as the hanging of a Quaker woman who insisted on speaking her mind, and many other disturbing actions by Christians over the centuries and to this day.

You are courteous in speaking to me, which is one of the reasons I continue this conversation. There are courteous people here and people who are not courteous in their postings. I weary of those who are not, and shortly I will cease to post sarcastically to them (which may or may not be as discourteous on my part as I find them in their communication to me).

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Merry Christmas to you — Hope your Christmas eve service is something truly special this year and that the congregants come away feeling renewed.

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What is ethical without absolutes? You can dial up anything you want without absolutes, as can anyone else,

You seem to think slavery is wrong, but how can you say so without absolutes? Without absolutes, if you oppose slavery, you shouldn’t own one but can’t criticize anyone else who does own a slave (or many slaves).

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I consider it as part of the pain of being alive in a difficult world.

I don’t believe one can “reason one’s way” to an infallible and impregnable ethical system.

A shortcut is to say that “God gave you one.”

Then people “prove it is the voice of God” by latching on to questionable claims, such as the Garden of Eden.

The argument about slavery is an example of where Christians have struggled. At one time people who considered themselves perfectly good Christians kept slaves. Other people who were against slavery considered black people inferior and advocated sending them back to Africa.

Newton the slave captain who became a Christian and then had the “slapped self” alongside the side of head moment and said, “I should not be doing this.”

And so on. Secularists such as myself struggle to be ethical and lead meaningful lives.

Christians such as yourself adjust your Christianity and behavior and struggle to be moral and lead meaningful lives, while all the while claiming you are following eternal truths and perhaps just discovering how to follow them better.

As Night Train points out, the day will probably come when you work yourself around to learning to live with homosexual people (without trying to deny them the opportunity to live in relationships and families while denying you changed anything in your eternal values).

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Good point and I think it adds to my point in a powerful way.

I wish you a merry Christmas or happy holiday, however you celebrate it. Take care.

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Do you not see this as fairly flawed thinking? I don’t believe in “x” but I will pretend to do so on a moment by moment basis? Why would you consciously decide to live a lie? If you can’t live on a daily basis without absolutes, then perhaps you ought to accept that they exist (at which point you might start to look at identifying them).

“In a similar fashion, I am not sure I believe in “grading on a curve.” If Christianity is the best belief system humans have ever come up with, I would still give it a “D” at best.”

I think that the philosophical/theological foundation of Christianity is comelingly stronger than any other system I have looked at (and I’ve looked at many). It explains everything – even why people do so poorly (remember, Christians as as flawed as everyone else – we simply have the unearned and undeserved gift of grace and a chance to do better with our lives – over the full course of our lives – than those without that gift; our individual milages, as you might say, varies considerably).

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There you go again. There have been many documentaries and news stories but they call it trafficking nowadays.

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Thank you for your reply.

There are two arguments for religious belief:

It is true.

It is good for us.

These arguments are often conflated together, to make them look stronger.

At the start, Judeo-Christianity starts with a myth: human life began with Adam and Eve. As a metaphor, it has some power: I do believe “fallen” describes human beings fairly well. As an inspiration, I find the belief that all human beings are being punished for the failure of an original pair, unattractive. Given abundant evidence of human evolution, this is not a good start for convincing me Christians have a lock on truth, and reading thousands of messages arguing uphill against evolution and for historical claims for Biblical truth over several years on wmb have not persuaded me Christians are in possession of truth about the nature of reality.

If it is not true, than arguing that Christianity is good for us becomes very cynical. As I’ve mentioned, I suspect there are many conservatives–Karl Rove comes to mind–who seem to act as if they think Christianity is a useful myth. If this is true (and I don’t know if it is or not), you are being played for fools by some of your leaders and idols.

In any case, your argument what other belief system has, over a period of no less than a couple of hundred years, been more beneficial to mankind than Christianity? seems to be an argument for “grading on a curve.”

I am not much of a follower or a believer in any “system” that claims to provide guidance on how human society should conduct itself, and as I have gotten older, I have become less of one. One of the books I am reading right now is a history of genocide through the ages. Joseph Conrad summed it up succinctly in Heart of Darkness: The horror! The horror!

I follow Voltaire’s advice in my old age. I cultivate my garden, though I stomp and slice slugs and shoot bunnies with my air rifle.

Most people I know (including Christians) love their children; I think our socio-biological instincts drive our behavior and inspire meaning for us. My granddaughter (though not genetically related) and her two mommies are coming to visit us on the island today. I expect to be cheered up. After a little bout of being a JD at preschool, I hear she is behaving better again.

The history of Christianity strikes me as much less edifying than you find it. Our mileage does vary. Although I have encountered many pleasant people at wmb, as a group, conservative Christians do not make an impressive impression. For example, while I do not argue that Christians “oppress” homosexuals, their words and demeanor about gay people are excessive to any problems they may cause and do not reflect well on your group.

Also, Christianity seems to do best when it is most oppressed; when it gains power, it makes a mess of things, just like all the other groups. The last eight years have been a typical example. However, I don’t think the point has really hit home yet. I am tempted to vote for Huckabee. It would be painful indeed if he were elected, but I think conservative Christians should be forced to clean up the mess they are leaving.

I do not believe that there are “absolute [moral] values” in the universe, but on a daily basis, I act as if there are.

In a similar fashion, I am not sure I believe in “grading on a curve.” If Christianity is the best belief system humans have ever come up with, I would still give it a “D” at best.

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As to the “relatively brief” appelation, I look at it as a few hundred years out of a couple of thousand.

I ask you this – what other belief system has, over a preiod of no less than a couple of hundred years, been more beneficial to mankind than Christianity?

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