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Become a Better Me
In Become a Better You, Pastor Joel Osteen wants you to have good posture and smile more. He wants you to be you, only better. Stop me if I sound nuts, but I’m going to make the call now: in five years or less, Brother Osteen is going to have his own talkshow, and it’s going to be syndicated, and it’s not going to be on TBN. He’s going the way of Montel, and going quickly. He may be preaching the Theology of the Smile to mothers out of wedlock on afternoon TV, telling them to walk tall and be proud and get their teeth whitened. You know your preaching’s gone south when Slate reproves your theology:
There’s, of course, nothing inherently suspect or dishonorable about seeking uplift and consolation in the Bible. But the point of those “deep theological doctrines” that Osteen seems to deride is to leaven that quest with the less agreeable features of life-pain and suffering, the persistence of evil, the fleeting quality of all endeavor, the cosmic insignificance of the human self, let alone that self’s subordinate chosen modes of expression in body posture or a near-pathological penchant for smiling. After all, the same Bible that Lakewood’s arena full of believers champion as a handbook for what they can do and be also contains these words, in Revelation 3:17: “Thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing: and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.”
Oh, he’s an easy target. I’m not hating on him. But how many earnest believers are being confused by this nice man?
back to top49 Comments to “Become a Better Me”
Unfortunately, quite a few.
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Osteen = heresy in a three piece suit, feel good while going to hell.
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Too many.
Ivan, the charge of heresy is pretty strong. The suggestion that his followers are going to hell is even stronger.
While I agree that Osteen is in grave error on many doctrines, I have no doubt that both he and most of his flock have saving faith in Jesus.
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If any “believer” is being confused by Joel Osteen, they’re not much of a believer. Most Bible believers have read at least a little bit of the Bible. Anyone who’s ever cracked the Bible knows that Osteen is lying through his teeth.
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Kyle wrote: “I agree that Osteen is in grave error on many doctrines”
Kyle, that’s what heresy is: “grave error” that leads people astray. Mike Horton nailed it several weeks ago on ‘60 minutes.’
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For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires. (2 Timothy 4:3)
Joel Osteen is part of the Word-Faith movement whether he admits it or not – he learned it from his father. Larry King asked Joel – “What is the prosperity gospel?” and Joel said – “I don’t know. I hear it too. It’s just all about money. But prosperity to me, Larry, is not just money, it’s having health.” His definition of prosperity is wealth and health. And the way he makes his wealth is by manipulation just like all the other Word-Faith teachers. The following is an excerpt from a ministry letter:
“God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us. One of the most important Biblical principles that shows us how to prosper is the principle of sowing and reaping…God works by laws. You can’t expect to reap a harvest without first planting your seeds. If you will be faithful and do what God is asking you to do, God will do His part. Don’t let the enemy deceive you into holding on to your seed–get it into the ground! …Trust that He will direct you how and where He wants you to sow your seed. If you are moved to send a seed gift in the enclosed reply envelope…”
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I have no particular feelings either way on Osteen. I see him as another in a long line of TV preachers. He lives a nice, comfortable life and is enjoying the perks of success. I also take comfort in the fact that if you are dishonest, a crook, a charlatan, karma has a way of coming back on you.
But I do wonder why WorldMag focuses so much on him? I’ve lost count if the number of blogs about Joel Osteen. Is it jealousy of his large church? Is it bitterness that he’s not your typical angry Christian? Is it the judgmentalism that seems to be inherent in reformed theology? Or is it a continuation of the theology “wars” between Calvanists and Armenians?
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ANLR -
Jealousy? hardly!
What, exactly, is “your typical angry Christian?” As a Christian am I angry by definition of just being a Christian?
Is it judgmental of you to infer that as a Reformed Christian I am judgmental? Am I certain of my doctrine? Yes! Am I charitable to those who differ? Yes! Am I willing to call those who teach false, as opposed to bad, theology heretics? Yes! As for the “wars” between Calvinists and Arminians, I think John Wesley and present day Arminians will also judge Joel O as one who preaches a false gospel.
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Please people do get over it. If his gospel helps his congregation to live happier and fuller lives, why not be happy for them. Not everyone minister feels it is their duty to guilt their parishioners every Sunday. If his gospel is wrong, it joins the list of all the many other christian denominations that other denominations think have the gospel wrong. You guys need to find some common ground and stop the church warfare.
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To Address Your Questions, Anlir (#7):
“But I do wonder why WorldMag focuses so much on him?” He’s the most prominent personality preaching a kind of milquetoast spirituality, the kind many of us have heard at churches across the country. He’s just the biggest target, and so his books and articles about him become windows into the phenomenon.
“Is it jealousy of his large church?” A loaded question. But a good one. The size of his church and the success of his books do merit discussion of him. Clearly, his words affect people.
“Is it bitterness that he’s not your typical angry Christian?” Another unfair question that doesn’t invite discussion. Yet, he’s clearly a happy man, and that’s much of his attraction. However, sound, rigorous theology doesn’t necessarily make one angry.
“Is it the judgmentalism that seems to be inherent in reformed theology?” Another fallacious question. All belief systems make distinctions between right behavior and wrong behavior, making them judgmental. Your questions imply severe judgments. But I think you are meaning to say that he’s more inviting than many reformed pastors. This would probably be correct, although I’m not sure one should be invited to that particular location.
“Or is it a continuation of the theology ‘wars’ between Calvanists [sic] and Armenians?” Probably some of that, yes.
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Mike Wallace – And what about Mitt Romney? And I’ve got to ask you the question, because it is a question whether it should be or not in this campaign, is a Mormon a true Christian?
Joel Osteen – Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that’s what I believe, so, you know, I’M NOT THE ONE TO JUDGE THE LITTLE DETAILS OF IT. So I believe they are.
Mike Wallace – So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?
Joel Osteen – I probably don’t get hung up in them because I HAVEN’T REALLY STUDIED THEM or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know. I certainly can’t say that I agree with everything that I’ve heard about it, but from what I’ve heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that’s a common bond.
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Anlir,
I can’t really speak for anyone else, but for me, it’s that as another in the “long line” that you mentioned, he reinforces a distorted, Americanized version of Christianity in the eyes of the general public. If Osteen is vapid and self-serving, then people will think that I am, too. It’s also troubling because there are many people who attend his church who get lulled into thinking that they’re doing fine (because Joel tells them so), when in fact they’re still in need of a genuine spiritual rebirth.
The church should definitely serve as a place of encouragement for its members, a refuge within a troubled and sinful world. But to pretend that we can change that sinful world on our own, just by being more positive, ignores the role that Christ plays in renewing all of creation.
It particularly sticks in my craw as a resident of Houston. I once traveled to see some clients in Omaha; my client was really thrilled to hear that I was from Houston, and her next question was whether or not I went to Lakewood Church. I found a clever way of answering the question, but it really took me off guard. Apparently all we’re known for down here is Enron, Joel Osteen, Yao Ming and oil. One out of four ain’t bad.
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Anlir — If WMB posts too many stories like this, they get criticized as in your post. If they post too few, someone else puts up a link and says, “Why isn’t WMB talking about this charlatan? I bet it’s because he’s a Republican.”
Editorially, WMB can’t win.
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Fusion- There is no way for one serious about their Christian faith to ‘get over’ heresy. Joel O is helping happy and fulfilled people on the road to perdition. Frankly, a healthy sense of real moral guilt is what the culture needs, not the pablum of self affirmation.
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Harrison,
Thanks for the reply. A few points from the perspective of those (like me) who are “outside the fold”. Our perception is that:
1. Christians fight a lot with each other. We see you fighting over the most minute specks in each other’s eyes. The Church “wars” have been ongoing: Catholics and Protestants, Calvinists and Armenians, Pentecostals and non-Pentecostals, Pre-mill’s and A-mill’s, not to mention all the denominational wars.
2. Christians are angry a lot, particularly the conservative ones. When they aren’t railing against feminists, gays, or liberals, they’re railing against their fellow Christians. I remember once that a friend who was a Christian told me that Christians are the only one’s who shoot their own soldiers. He was walking away from a church that was in a huge ongoing fight over something the minister said.
3. Christians are lacking in mercy and grace toward each other and toward people who aren’t Christians. Face it – y’all have got a bad record of coming across as judgmental, unkind, and harsh. Sadly, one can see that on display on WorldMag.
Given all that, why would people who aren’t Christians, have any incentive to join this particular faith?
Don’t get me wrong – there are plenty of mean, angry people who are not Christians. And certainly us heathen fight just as badly.
What’s the advantage of exchanging one group of angry fighting people for another group? How are Christians a better choice?
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“a continuation of the theology ‘wars’ between Calvanists [sic] and Armenians?”
Shouldn’t you have sic’ed both of those, HSK? Calvinists, to my knowledge, don’t have a problem with folks from Armenia. Arminians, however, are another matter.
I only comment on this because I remember while back, on a completely different blog, someone (an Arminian, whose first language I don’t believe was English), commenting on the Calvinistic slaughter of Arminians. No one could figure out what he was talking about, until someone asked if he was talking about the massacre (by the Turks) of Armenians. Seems he had confused the two.
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re: #14,
I guess I can see your genuine cause for concern about the souls marching to perdition. But a lot of people have different beliefs about God, even within the Christian faith alone. I believe a lot of people go to his church because his concept of Christian faith matches theirs. Should the idea be all or nothing, or should we be grateful for small mercies; at least he is in some way trying to improve society, rather than trying to ripping it apart like the Fred Phelps church. Each minister has their own way of interpreting the Bible, and it is up to God to figure out which people best represent Him.
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ANLIR,
I would say, and I hope Harrison would agree, that not ‘choosing’ Christianity has eternal consequences.
One more thing – Christians are not perfect, just forgiven.
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FUSION,
I believe “Mere Christianity,” as defined by C. S. Lewis, is an all or nothing issue. I do thank God for all the small mercies but compromising the Gospel is not mercy but fraud.
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Ivan the terrible,
J O comes off to me as not knowing all the religious answers (but then again who does), but he feels some psychology 101 with the help of the bible gives you a better life. The beginning chant is a little disconcerting but most ministers have their own idiosyncrasies. Does his theology hurt the faith, I don’t know, I simply believe he refrains from preaching subjects he isn’t sure of (if this is a crime, I’ll let God be the judge) at least it is safer move than Pat Robertson’s radical prophesies that never come true.
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Anlir (#15),
I would concede just about all of your points, as you are describing the world’s perceptions of Christians and Christianity. I’ll say this in reply:
It’s easy to spot someone being hateful. It’s not so easy to spot someone being not hateful. I would argue that for all the mean Christians out there, there are many more who are just doing the thankless, quiet work of redeeming creation by: praying, planting gardens, tending their elderly parents, etc.
Also, I’d like to say that most Christians aren’t really in the business of selling Christianity to others. Most of us expect the world to dislike us to some degree, and (while we don’t want to be hated), we are not surprised when we are. If we really wanted to recruit people into our churches, we’d look more like Joel Osteen.
Finally, many Christians understand that it takes the Holy Spirit to open up someone’s eyes to the truths and realities of God. Without that, God (and everything that goes along with him), looks pretty ridiculous. I will concede that.
But, alas, you are right. Christians, as a group, are perceived very negatively by the world. But I might wonder if many individual believers are perceived very positively by those around them. Maybe not, but I can tell you that there are lots of folks that I’ve worked with who hate Christians in general but have said they liked me. I remind them that I believe most of the things all those crazy Christians believe, but they don’t seem to mind.
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FUSION – “it is up to God to figure out which people best represent Him.”
It is also up to us.
Matt 7
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits …
1 John 4
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
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Fusion (#20),
I’d agree @ Robertson. Yes, I believe JO’s theology hurts the faith and while my idiosyncrasies as a preacher are one thing, his refraining from a clear preaching of the Gospel is eternally harmful.
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A few random thoughts. . .
There is a difference between error and heresy in my opinion, and I’m not entirely sure which term best applies to Osteen. Perhaps he does have some heretical views. I don’t know enough about him to say, although I do know enough to say that he is in error on some doctrines.
Anlir, one reason that Christians fight is that what they believe is extremely important to them. It’s a sign of commitment to their principles, although I agree that it looks bad to others.
I’m more Arminian than Calivinist, but I certainly disagree with many of the teachings of Osteen and others in the “faith” movement. I know that many Arminian believes would also disagree with him strongly.
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Anlir: Christians are angry a lot, particularly the conservative ones.
Conservative Christians hold firm views about their religion and the social, economic, and political principles that derive from that religion. It doesn’t follow from this that these folk are angry a lot. This is a rather false assumption on your part.
It is true that evangelical and orthodox Christians are frequently criticized and attacked for not subscribing to the secular-liberal pieties of our time. Strong Christian men and women when under attack have every right to defend their position with strong though not necessarily angry language. We don’t subscribe to the syrupy theology of the smile.
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Re #20 Saved,
Our abilities to discern spirits is so we are not deceived, not to judge others. If I don’t agree with him I simply avoid his church, his book might be helpful in its secular content.
#23 Ivan,
It hurts the faith in heaven (maybe), where the judgment isn’t up to us. On earth his parishioners see themselves as Christians and so I don’t see it hurting the faith, numberwise. Isn’t belief in Jesus’ sacrifice the central theme of Christianity (this I know he preaches) and love for God and fellow humans the two main commandments (principles, I haven’t seen him diverge from). The rest then is up to God. To me he gives God some more positive exposure. If there is fault in the other parts of his doctrine, I believe J O’s intentions and heart should be put into consideration in the harsh criticism.
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Fusion (#26),
for what it’s worth: The old saying still stands: “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
Christians are called to ‘earnestly,’ not angrily, contend for the faith. JO does not talk of sin, the need for true repentance, the substitutionary atonement of Christ (it is more than a sacrifice), and other cardinal doctrines that form the core of basic (mere) Christianity. I’m not sure God needs JO’s ‘positive’ exposure, he is quite capable and well known without it.
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To all the servants of the Lord Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 5:8-14 implies that as Christians we should progress to the point where we become teachers of the Word.
Indeed, that is the Great Commission:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you . . .
Note that the last thing He taught is “go and teach”.
He was able to teach His disciples everything in about three years. How long would it take Joel Osteen? What about you? Are you teaching all things yet? If not, how long have you been being taught? If so, how long did it take the person who taught you?
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From perusing Osteen’s written stuff (not super-deeply) and a few watchings of his televised performances, I can’t say with any conclusiveness that he is a heretic, but if he isn’t he is coming pretty close far too often.
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See, I’m not so sure that labeling Joel Osteen as a “heretic” is the best way to go about things. Fighting amongst yourselves and declaring each other “heretics” is not the way to attract other people to your faith. That I know of, no one faction of Christendom has obtained exclusive rights to the word “Christian” and/or the power to decide who is or isn’t a Christian. Though I suppose God could have died and left somebody else in control of these matters. Perhaps the New York Times missed that story.
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A strong and rigorous defense of the faith is hardly fighting. What is outside to bounds of accepted belief is heresy and has been ‘labeled’ such by God himself. The vast majority of Christians (Catholic and Protestant), Anlir, have a set of core beliefs. Going beyond those core beliefs is denying the faith. Claiming to be a Christian and yet not teaching the core beliefs is ‘false advertising’ of damnable sort.
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Anlir, very much like Joel Osteen, argues for a live and let live philosophy and an easy conscience. “Why can’t we all get along.?” This would be fine if we take the position of relativism on moral issues. However, Christians have been taught for millennia that we live in a world of moral truth, variously called the Law, Tao, Satyagraha and other names. We try as best we can to understand and live by this truth. this truth.
Both the Bible and classical reason explain that in order to be good and happy it is necessary to conform our lives to moral truth, while understanding that we are fallen and incapable of succeeding in the effort; hence the need for compassion and forgiveness of our sins. This is something quite different from doing one’s own thing according to the passion of the moment.
At any rate, one offers these thoughts humbly and without anger.
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Re:#31
Ivan,
I appreciate your intent, but not your execution.
What did Paul mean when he said, “I have fought the good fight”? Wasn’t he referring to a strong and rigorous defense of the faith? You seem to have capitulated to the nannies who insist all fighting is bad.
Reasoned discourse among believers and between believers and unbelievers is is not the same as say, the fighting between the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, which is not a battle over theology, but a property fight spawned when the English gave Scots Protestant settlers land conquered from the Irish Catholic natives.
Reasoned discourse is a fight with no malice on our part, even when our opponents are malicious.
Also, I think you need to be a bit more careful with your wording. “Going beyond those core beliefs is denying the faith.” ??
Two High School girls were struggling with a physics problem after a Church youth group meeting. I explained the concepts and formulas to them, delighted to see their faces light up as they understood and were able to solve their assigned problems. (Sounds funny to say I was “de-lighted” seeing them “light up”)
So in that instance I taught them things (the physics of centrifugal force) outside the core beliefs , but I was certainly not denying the faith.
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An other in long line of Gospel of Wealth and Success in America — why the fuss
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And I bet Ivan is just the person to decide who’s a “heretic”.
Seriously, who gets to decide who the “heretics” are? The Catholic Church? PCA? SBC? GARBC?
Seeing as how God didn’t leave us a “Heretic Meter”, how do we determine who they are? Torture? Throw them in the river and see if they float?
Who gets to claim that they speak for God when it comes to deciding who the “heretics” are? What happens if people reject their authority? Will they too be labeled as “heretics”?
Is any Christian allowed to label another a “heretic”? Does it carry any authority, or is it just symbolic? What if the other person labels his accuser as a “heretic”? How will we decide if one or the other (or both) are “heretics”?
Will we have tribunals where we drag whole churches and denominations before it to determine if they’re “heretics”? What if a counter-tribunal declares them to be the “heretics”? What if a Southern Baptist Church refuses to hand over a minister to the Catholic Church for trial as a “heretic”.
What will the punishment be for being declared a “heretic”? How will it be enforced? Who will enforce it? What if the “heretic” escapes to a neutral country? Can the Church hire bounty hunters to drag them back to serve their sentence?
It seems to me Christiandom went through this before, trying to sort out who was a “heretic” and who wasn’t. As I recall, it ended very badly. How will this time be any different?
Or we could just let every person worry about their own soul, and let God sort out who is or isn’t a “heretic”. Nah! What fun is that?
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John Denny – When Ivan uses the term “outside of” he is using it in the sense of “contrary to” rather than simply “not addressed by, but not inconsistent with”.
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Anlir,
It’s good to consult the scriptures.
The only reference to “heretick” is in Titus 3:10-11 , rendered in King James as:
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
What does the word translated “reject” mean? A very polite refusal, as it’s rendered in Luke 14:19 where a man is declining a wedding invitation:
And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
So, Anlir, their is no imprisonment, torture, or execution to be meted out to a heretic.
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Let’s see:
#36, thanks for clarifying me on what I meant
#35, the power of the church is declative and spiritual, not secular, hence heretics are to be excommunicated not executed.
#33, you taught them the core beliefs of physics.
Thanks all for a good discussion, as Tigger says:”TTFN.”
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KRM,
I’m glad you understood what he meant. However, couldn’t critics take that out of context to make the case that, “Christians have the same mindset as the conquering Moslem who burned a great library saying that if the books repeat what is in the Koran, they are redundant and if they say what is not in the Koran, it is evil.”?
BTW, it’s “Denney”, not “Denny”
Yeah, yeah, details, details. Sorry to have to be so pedantic.
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John Denney,
So how does this “rejection” work exactly? Does one say “I reject thee” 3 times, and the person is so ashamed that they go home and never come out again?
Specifically, how does it work for Joel Osteen? Does it mean he can’t go to church anymore? Does he lose his driving privileges? Can he still shop at Macy’s or does he have to shop at Dollar General now? Does he lose his seat at the next Franklin Graham crusade? Does he lose his hospital visitation privileges in the greater Houston area?
Living in a democratic society, I’m not sure exactly how “rejection” works these days. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
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Anlir Or we could just let every person worry about their own soul, and let God sort out who is or isn’t a “heretic”. Nah! What fun is that?
The problem with Let every person worry about their own soul is the hard Judeo/Christian reality that God through the Word of Christ has instructed we fallen humans to follow the truth of God as revealed in the Bible and taught thrugh the Naturalf Law of wise Christian thinkers including Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Niebuhr.
The idea that every person has the wit and wisdom to de novo set standards for their soul would quite probably be the advice of some Devil.
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Well, when I got to “in five years or less, Brother Osteen is going to be…” I thought the next words would be along the lines of “embroiled in a sex scandal”, or “convicted for tax evasion” or the like.
I was going to say, “what a relief”, but in a way that scenario might be better, if, as a result, he misled fewer people.
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Anlir,
A good question. You might also ask, “who’s responsible for giving the first and second admonition?”
The Apostle Paul wrote to Titus saying, “For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:”
So it seems in context that Titus is being instructed not to ordain a heretic as an elder, if the man disregards a first and second warning.
Translating to today – who ordained Joel Osteen? What is his opinion of Joel now? It seems to me that critics can raise issues for discussion (as is happening here) but no one here (I think) has the authority to remove Joel from his position even if he were the most egregious heretic. That would be up to whomever ordained him in the first place.
Apart from that, we’re always free as Christians to say “Joel Osteen says . . ., but the Scriptures say . . .”
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One should note that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Neibuhr were fallible human beings just like the rest of us, and were therefore just as capable of being wrong as any of the rest of us. I’m sure they were fine fellows and learned men, but they had no more of a “direct line” to God than any other human being does. I don’t think they’re considered deities.
As far as I know, Joel Osteen’s church is an independent congregation. And Joel is not answerable to any ecclesiastical body. So I’m curious how “excommunication” would work? The bottom line is that there is nothing anyone can do about him or Lakewood Church. Churches are free to organize and ordain whomever they wish if they don’t belong to a denomination that controls the process. All this talk about labeling him a “heretic” and “excommunicating” him is just that – talk.
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He is just as honest and believable as any other pusher of mysticism.
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Ivan the Terrible,
You said: “What is outside to bounds of accepted belief is heresy and has been ‘labeled’ such by God himself.”
Please quote your scriptural proofs for this statement “‘labeled’ such by God himself.”
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Anlir:I’m sure they[Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Neibuhr} were fine fellows and learned men, but they had no more of a “direct line” to God than any other human being does. I don’t think they’re considered deities.
Of course, none of these Christian thinkers claimed to be deities; in fact they humbly offered their poor thoughts to the world, which nonetheless over time has regarded them as exemplary men.
Excuse me, if I take the word of these acknowledged great Christian thinkers over Osteen or Anlir’s claim that it is best to let people on their own figure out the sweet mystery of life and ignore such authority as the Bible or the reason of natural law.
Basically Anlir is arguing for the anarchic position that everyone should do their own thing, except, of course. for those pesky Christians who live by the Word of the Bible.
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In case I haven’t been clear enough:
I’m no supporter of Joel Osteen and whatever message he’s selling.
*****
I would be remiss if I didn’t respond to Harrison’s post #21:
I agree that it’s easy to spot the hateful people. One of my biggest gripes is that people spend so much time kicking the darkness that they forget about the good. In my humble opinion, WorldMag spends too much time kicking the darkness. Why not focus on the good things that Christianity does? We all know who and what you’re against. Oh boy, do we know!
I know many fine Christians, though my fellow WorldMag bloggers would probably not want anything to do with them since they aren’t CCR’s.
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Anlir,
If Joel is independent, then no one can excommunicate him; there’s nothing to excommunicate him FROM.
However, if we talk about it, and there are indeed flaws in Joel’s theology, eventually it will get back to Joel or members of his flock. Joel may change his position, or (at least some of) his flock may reject him and leave for greener pastures.
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