Why guys leave the church, Part I
Murrow’s thesis is that the church focuses more on the needs of women and young men are jumping ship. In a video for a John Piper’s Desiring God conference, Mark Driscoll, pastor of
“Most churches,” says Driscoll, “are built to cater to 40-something-year-old women and their children and the guys are nowhere to be found.” A recent Barna study reported that the least likely group of people to attend church are men between the ages of 18 to 29. Murrow offers this explanation:
“Almost everything about today’s church—its teaching style, its ministries, the way people are expected to behave, even today’s popular images of Jesus—is designed to meet the needs and expectations of a largely female audience. Church is sweet and sentimental, nurturing, and nice. Women thrive in this environment. In modern parlance, women are the target audience of today’s church.”
This is most obvious in the “contemporary” music played in many churches today which are nothing more than prom songs and love ballads with “Jesus” inserted in lyrics instead of “baby” or “my darling”. Here’s are lyrics from the praise band Underoath:
Oh sweet angel of mercy
With your grace like the morning
Wrap your loving arms around me
Oh sweet angel of mercy
With your grace like the morning
Wrap your loving arms around me
Yeah, I can just see the men 18-29 years-old flocking to churches grabbing guitars to softly serenade the one from whose mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:15-16).



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back to top91 Comments to “Why guys leave the church, Part I”
Is THAT (with apologies to Victoria) why I don’t like praise songs?
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Most professing Christians are actually practicing Marcionites. They claim to believe that the inclusive/loving/gentle Jesus is the same being as the racist/homicidal/genocidal/pro-slavery Jehovah, but they don’t really believe it. (Who could believe sch a thing?) They’re embarrassed and disgusted at the murderous, racist god of the OT who not only allowed but encouraged slavery, who regularly ordered the slaughter of people of the wrong race, including newborn infants, etc. They can’t be honest about it, and just admit they don’t believe in the OT god, so they just go on about Jesus all the time. And to compensate for Jehovah, they’ve turned Jesus into a wimp who did nothing but go around suffering the children, not judging others, and beholding the lilies. Which is why women love Christianity, and men don’t.
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The thesis that “comtemporary” churches are more offensive to men than more “traditional” ones is easily investigated.
Has the ratio of men to women in churches changed in the past century?
Is there presently a higher ratio of men to women in “traditional” churches than “contemporary” ones?
I don’t have the data, but I’m betting the answer is “no” to both questions. The church has a huge problem with men. It has for a while. Have you not read any Mark Twain? Blaming contemporary worship music not only distracts attention away from more realistic causes, it also places blame for the problem where there is actually a potential solution. Do you really think men would be packing in to churches singing Fanny Crosby songs?
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I didn’t like Fanny Crosby much better than praise songs but at least there was written music and harmonies.
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One of the things that attracted me most on our first visit to the church we attend now, was to look around and see how many men, including young men, were there. The music is contemporary – even when we sing hymns it’s accompanied by guitar and drums (and sometimes piano). I can’t say whether it bears any resemblance to prom songs or love ballads because I never went to a prom or got to like much music other than classical. A lot of what we sing is written by our own worship leader, who is a talented musician but I couldn’t say what his style is (someone recently referred to it as lite jazz-country-rock-gospel or something like that). From working with two of his four sons in the K/1 class, I’d say there is nothing chic-a-fied about him.
There is a small group that meets on Sunday mornings for women who come to church alone, whether due to being single, divorced, widowed, husband who won’t step foot in church, husband who works Sundays or nights, even wives of men busy teaching/leading elsewhere in the building. The group has grown since it started, to perhaps thirty or so – but considering the size of the church (around 1200 weekly attendance) that’s not very many. (Not that there aren’t women who could be in that group but choose another group, but it’s some indication that men are very involved in the life of the church.)
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You guys are suppose to be in charge. If you don’t like it, change it.
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Night Train: that was drivel.
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I disagree, NJL. I thought it was one of Bradley’s better columns so far.
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[i]Here’s are lyrics from the praise band Underoath…[/i]
Are you [i]kidding[/i] me?
Underoath?
A [i]praise[/i] band?
For those of you who remain uninformed, Underoath is a hardcore/screamo band. Christian, yes, but their music involves long hair, headbanging, jarring guitar riffs, and a lot of yelling. (And seriousy virtuoso drum solos, but that’s not the point.)
Casting Underoath as an example of something ‘girly’ that’s wrong with the church is about as half-cocked as that Halo article I saw here a while back.
This is Underoath:
http://www.viewauckland.co.nz/upload/underoath_160.jpg
Sweaty, nasty, and ugly. Now, if you want to incur wrath by suggesting that that is effeminate, then by all means. It’s you who’ll be sleeping on the couch, not me.
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I’ve sung them all–old and new. However, I prefer to sing the songs that Jesus sang. We sing the Psalms, all the verses.
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And maybe a book–The Churching of America– might help shed some light.
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For the record, I don’t like most of the “girly” stuff myself, including most of the stuff directed specifically to women. One thing I like about my current church is relatively strong male leadership. I detest the choruses, for the most part. (My church just suddenly, inexplicably changed from mostly hymns to mostly choruses. Since even during the “mostly hymns” years parishioners said they wished we sang more hymns, the change makes no sense at all to me.)
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It’s not just churches, the whole culture has become feminized, or to use the polite term, gender neutral. Families, schools, churches have fallen for the notion that strong, assertive men are the cause of the wold’s problems. It is true that churches portray Christ as rather feminine, though I suspect he was actually a man’s man, as was the case with the money changers at the temple. One can be a strong and sensitive man. Many Marines are football players are this way.
For some serius insight into this topic, read Harvey Mansfield’s Manliness. A bare summary of his view comes from a Boston Globe review of his book.
Nonsense, Mansfield thinks. For better and worse, men are more willing than women to stick out their necks for causes, ideas, and people. They possess a greater taste for the physical and intellectual combat that has led to mankind’s (yes, mankind’s) greatest achievements. ”I don’t think we need to preserve manliness,” he said in an interview. ”I think there is plenty of evidence that manliness is around us. But women need to come to terms with it-society as a whole does.” The gender-neutral society is by definition a mediocre one, with male greatness viewed as threatening to the social order and men and women crammed into boxes they don’t fit in.
Mansfield is a Harvard professor of political science.
An interesting point in Mansfield’s book is that history provides examples of strong, manly women including Margaret Tharcher. In fact women have a manly side as men have a womanly side.
KBells makes a salient point that if the guys don’t like the present setup, they need to have the nuts to change it. The problem is that many men and boys are buffaloed by the setup and find their ways to avoid it including staying away from neutered churches.
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One of my friends from my Christian era is in management at a Christian music company in Nashville. She tells me that the percentage of CCM musicians who are closeted and not so closeted gays would blow most Christians’ minds.
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Men between the ages of 18 and 29 are ready to take on the world. It is hard for them to believe that they are absolute failures without God’s grace. Once they get married and have kids they realize that the are not a perfect as they thought they were.
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kBells (6): Perfect point.
Back to the music (in the immortal words of Olive Oyle, “This really gets my dandruff up.”):
You want to play the Horrible, Feminized Lyrics Game? Try these:
Safe in the arms of Jesus,
Safe on His gentle breast;
There by His love o’ershaded,
Sweetly my soul shall rest.
Hark! ’tis the voice of angels
Borne in a song to me,
Over the fields of glory,
Over the jasper sea.
That’s from whom? Michael W. Smith? Barlow Girl? No, it’s Fanny Crosby, 1868.
Have another:
In my heart there rings a melody,
There rings a melody with heaven’s harmony;
In my heart there rings a melody;
There rings a melody of love!
That’s Elton Roth, 1924. If you’ve never heard the melody, suffice to say that the lyrics are better. The music and lyrics together make me want to jump under a train.
Given that these are the songs considered good enough to stand the test of time from the 1860’s and 1920’s, I don’t think contemporary musicians have anything to be ashamed of.
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I don’t see why the lyrics “Yes Lord, Yes Lord, Yes Yes Lord” sung about 12 times to the same chord would attract women any more than men, but that isn’t the whole problem is it?
It’s hard to sing the melody to “Immortal, Invisible”, so we sing choruses now – but this issue is about more than music.
“Church is sweet and sentimental, nurturing, and nice.” says a lot. What it doesn’t say is what it should be, if not those things.
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Right on, Stubob. Even when I was a Christian I was embarrassed to sing that stuff.
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In our church/school community, guys leave because from about junior high on up, there are no worthy role models. And the “men” teaching sunday school don’t have any greater priorities than the denominational big ten, in other words, the males in the class are allowed to be rude, and if the male is studious and thoughtful, he is ridiculed in church probably worse than he would be in school, because at least in school he can shine in academics. My son was likened unto a Mormon by his teacher in front of the class (which didn’t help the other students be less rude) instead of receiving compassion for the fact that my son has lost his father to divorce/geography/irresponsibility, and needs a friend. How spiritual would that be? No, it is instead a theological wrestling match. No spiritual discernment, just judgmentalism.
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Another thing I hated was visiting churches only have the guy next to me reach for my hand during a certain part of the service. He’d be like “We always hold hands during the offertory” and I’d be like “Back off, perv!”
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Young men between 18 and 29 are probably not married and hence spend their Saturday night doing something to either change that status or celebrate that status. Suffice to say, Sunday morning comes awfully late for this crowd. Also, I daresay that 18-29 females are also infrequent churchgoers. Its the age group; old enough to make their own decision and young enough to have few responsibilities.
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And this whole thing about gender. I have suffered at the hands of males who are spiritually abusive, so a strong male influence in the church is not necessarily a good thing. I was excommunicated for leaving a church. Our family was humiliated by the mail and the pulpit for two years before the excommunication. The pastor literally took an hour long phone call, took notes from it, and quoted me for an entire sermon the next week. It was unbelievable, invasive and abusive. I was told that I couldn’t leave my husband who had obvious BIG problems, all because that pastor didn’t want to be responsible for a divorce. No, strong male influence is not always a good thing.
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Reg, what denomination/type church did this happen at?
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Peter (#13) makes a lot of sense as does the Mansfield book he refers to.
Murrow in, Why Men Hate Going to Church, arrives at a similar appraisal. The majority of mainline churches are just too feminine to appeal to most men. This is because women have taken over most of the volunteer tasks in the church and dominate in the lay leadership. So, naturally most of the things going on in the church are going to be a reflection of the hands doing the work. Having read the book some time ago, I recall that Murrow’s solution was to add significant elements of masculine appeal to the church—challenging, work oriented programs, men’s gatherings, and the like. However, I don’t believe we can get men to come to church just by dressing it in men’s clothes.
Murrow’s solution seems to beg the more basic question. Does Christianity itself appeal more to women than to men? If it does, then we are presenting it badly. Although I do not agree with NightTrain’s (#2) assessment of the OT God, he has a point in that many people in the mainline churches today have presented Christ as a feminized wimp. They have done so because they mistakenly agree with his opinion about the God of the OT. They are just as wrong as he is.
All humans need Christ, and if men think that He is mainly for women and children, they are disastrously wrong at the personal level. The God of the OT is the same God as the God of the NT. He is a fierce warrior against all forms of evil and, at the same time, a compassionate and loving God, willing to sacrifice Himself for those He loves. He is an absolutely sovereign God who will not tolerate rebellion, but who will lovingly welcome repentant sinners back into the fold. If they persist in rebellion they will be destroyed. There is nothing wimpy about Him or Christ—they are one and the same.
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If they persist in rebellion they will be destroyed.
You mean like the month old Canaanite kids? And the day old Egyptian first born kids?
I guess they were “rebellious”, huh?
And along with not tolerating rebellion, he not only tolerates, but approves of and encourages his people to own other human beings. Even says that if you beat your slave half to death, and they live a day or two before dying, you’ve committed no crime, because the slave was “your money.” How come you left that part out?
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I’m glad Murrow’s book is getting the publicity and review it needs in the Christian community. If you read his book you know that Judaism has similarly seen the men fall away. Yes, there are churches where Jesus is– in the words of Townhall columnist Doug Giles, who is a pastor by the way— merely a bearded lady.
You’d think with all the “Wild At Heart” and other men’s ministry-oriented books (Patrick Morely’s Man in the Mirror) that perhaps church leadership would see the men they are losing.
Some churches are good about tapping into the men’s needs. Gals out there, to get the guys back it might mean you all step back and let the men be men EVEN THOUGH they might not be as good at “doing” church as some gals are.
As others have noted, the women step up to do laity leadership because the men arent there. But there are other aspect of the men problem you all are downplaying: what are men 18 to 29 doing? They work low-end jobs which might entail overnight shifts that END at 7am Sunday morning. They might have no discretion over the hours they work on weekend part-time jobs. I once got off at 11pm and had to be back at a store at 7am on Sunday morning (and Sunday shifts were time and 1/2 pay at a unionized but now long-gone chain store)
And hanging like an everpresent pall over the 18 to 29 yr old male’s church experience is one profoundly distracting ever-changing constant: the 18 to 29 yr old female
I honestly think that gender segregated Sunday school might be a huge selling point in authentic fellowship for the dudes.
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Sadly, Reg (22) describes what often passes for male leadership in some circles. I attended an OPC church in the Midwest where such things occurred regularly. The pastor often shouted people down and blew his stack whenever he couldn’t get his way. He openly mocked church members from the pulpit. He told several families to leave the church because he was “tired of dealing with their problems.” When a dozen families met with the session to discuss the pastor’s conduct, the session said that the pastor was only trying to counteract the feminine influences in our culture. If we all weren’t so feminized, we’d recognize his bullying as God’s chastening. Ironically, almost all of his sycophant elders left the church within a couple of years.
Nevertheless, I agree with Bradley. I dislike most evangelical churches because I dislike their feminized moralism and the soppy emotionalism. I’ve since moved away from that part of the Midwest and attend another OPC church in a different state. I’m happy.
I do find that OPC churches and traditionalist PCA churches have more single men than single women. So maybe Bradley’s on to something. Thank the Lord for churches with dry sermons, dark colors, and pews full of whiskey-guzzling godly men — men who don’t need to bully others to prove their masculinity.
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#25 NIGHT TRAIN
I distinctly remember Charlton Heston being sorry as he told Yul Brenner that it would be as he, the Pharaoh, said; the first born of all Egypt would die…
The Pharaoh chose the punishment.
As for the Canaanite kids, weren’t all the Canaanites to be killed?
Try picking less easily answered objections
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If the praise/worship team seems to be comprised of either unapproachable holy hotties or Girly Men churchboys, lotsa those ordinary dudes out in the assembly will conclude something’s wrong with themselves.
Obviously nothing could be further from the truth in many cases, no??
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As for the Canaanite kids, weren’t all the Canaanites to be killed?
How nice. Christianity is such a loving philosophy. It’s OK to slaughter innocent children as long as it’s part of a package deal.
I’m sure Baby Jesus is smiling at you right now, Bob.
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Why guys leave church? See Simpson, Homer.
“Why do I have to go to church on Sundays? Why can’t I just pray like hell on my deathbed like everyone else?” – Simpson’s Movie
“I’m a good husband, I work hard, and I love my kids…why should I spend half my Sunday hearing about how I’m going to hell?” – Homer the Heretic
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NightTrain (#25):
Rebels will be destroyed, but the children you cite were not rebels in the sense of being accountable adults. Yet they died at God’s direction. Was that cruel, as you seem to think?
No. In fact, it was merciful. They reached the end of their physical lives quickly and without an iota of the pain and suffering most of us endure throughout the span of our earthly lives. They were briefly ushered onto the stage of human existence and just as quickly off again. What happened to them after that? That is the question. The Bible indicates that all human beings will exist forever, the key difference being where and in what condition—heaven or hell. No one but God knows the ultimate destiny of any physically dying infant. He made those judgments before time began.
I know that some Christians will disagree with me on this, but I am not prepared to say that each of those Canaanite and Egyptian children who died in infancy are now in hell. I just don’t know. God’s “elect” come from all times and all walks of life, but with this in common, they all start life from the moment of conception as sinners. So, why does He save some and not others? I don’t know. However, I do know that, even in the midst of His anger at sin, He is also just and merciful. I trust in that.
We ALL die physically, at God’s direction. There is not a single human being who will not die a physical death. You should be just as incensed at the death of a 70 year old as you are at the death of a child.
Death is the enemy of us all, but—in case you are interested—God has a merciful solution to that in Christ.
So there is a significant difference between dying infants and deliberately rebellious adults. There are unanswered questions about the former, but none about the latter—they will be destroyed.
The slavery issue you raise is complex and cannot be fairly discussed except in the context of each incident. You cannot, with any credibility, make sweeping generalities claiming that God approves of slavery or the abuse of other human beings. For example, God disapproved of the slavery and abuse of His people in their Egyptian bondage and He set them free. On the other hand, God later sent these same people into Babylonian slavery as punishment for their wickedness. In the example you cite from Ex 21, the owner who beat a slave to death was to be punished for his crime because he had homicidal intent. However, if the slave died sometime later, the loss of the valuable slave was presumed punishment enough, since the owner only intended to punish the slave and not to kill him.
Slavery was a widely practiced human institution, not a godly one. At times God used it to accomplish His own purposes. In a similar manner, God also allowed murder to be used to accomplish His greatest purpose for mankind—our redemption through the death of Christ on the cross. However, that does not mean He approves of murder, any more than it means He approves of slavery as you maliciously and falsely claim.
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I knew I had another example of the wimpy church, an aspect this female didn’t like, but I couldn’t remember it….
From about the age of eight or ten, I disliked the name “Jesus.” That was the sweet, sappy, Sunday school personage. “Christ” was the real man. I think I had too many old ladies crooing Jesus’ name in a syrupy sweet fashion. As an adult, I had to relearn love for the name of Jesus, very nearly destroyed by flannelgraph lessons.
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I don’t fit in the age bracket, but I quit going to church at age 17 for at least two reasons.
1) I knew from very early on that it was a psychological need for insecure people to get together and reassure themselves. And I didn’t need that.
2) The bible was clearly not what it claimed to be, and neither was the rest of Christianism.
3) Dated all the girls my age already.
4) Went to college so I was free to not attend, while living under the parent’s roof that was the deal. Went to church.
But your mileage may vary (since RN is supposedly on sabbatical).
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People. Seriously. Pick up a good Episcopal Hymnal. Not “Wonder Love and Praise” which is at least 60 percent drivel, but the good honest 1940 Hymnal or even the 1970 something version. Or pick up a Methodist hymnal. There is such a rich tradition of Christian Hymnody. Yes, there are still some good things being written today as in every generation, but I will simply walk out if someone hands me one of these “Jesus is my lover” kinds of songs with a treacly tune. Sorry. I’m just not gonna waive my hands in the air with a lighter and sway in church like its “We are the world.”
You know, if we had some decent classical music education in this country maybe people wouldn’t be intimitated by basic hymns that have been sung by congregations for centuries. “Immortal, invisible” is a hard melody? OMG. You’ve got to be kidding me. Its A-A-B-A. In other words three of the lines of each verse are musically IDENTICAL.
Sigh. Try singing Bach, Mendelssohn, Gibbons, Wesley, Luther, Rorem, Healy Willan, Vaughn Williams. There’s so much good stuff, why settle for the drivel?
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STU BOB: If not “Safe in the Arms of Jesus” (which I thought was a funeral hymn for a child) what lyrics do you like for your time of worship?
DCLAWyeR: Rorem? I sang in the choir for about 5 years, but don’t recall this composer. Don’t tell me he’s in the hymnal!
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You cannot, with any credibility, make sweeping generalities claiming that God approves of slavery or the abuse of other human beings.
Sure you can. The Bible is full of passages where God makes it clear that he has no problem with the concept of one person owning another. Yes, it’s true, that he delivered the Israelites out of their Egyptian bondage. But that’s because he’s a racist, not because he’s against slavery. After he brought them out of Egypt, he told them they could have slave of their own, and they could beat them severely, as long as they didn’t die on the spot, without fear of punishment.
When a practice is encoded in and protected by the 10 Commandments, you can certainly make the sweeping statement that God approves of it. And slavery is encoded in and protected by the 10th Commandment.
What you can’t do is show us one passage from the Bible where God calls owning another human being a sin.
That’s what you can’t do.
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Should start:
Sure you can. The Bible is full of passages where God makes it clear that he has no problem with the concept or practice of one person owning another.
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Rebels will be destroyed, but the children you cite were not rebels in the sense of being accountable adults. Yet they died at God’s direction. Was that cruel, as you seem to think?
No. In fact, it was merciful. They reached the end of their physical lives quickly and without an iota of the pain and suffering most of us endure throughout the span of our earthly lives.
And you wonder why people laugh at Christians? You guys rightly raise all kinds of Cain about abortion, but when it’s pointed out that your God ordered the slaughter of innocent babies, suddenly infanticide becomes an act of loving kindness and mercy. That’s despicable. By the way, that’s the same way Charles Manson talked his followers into committing murders. When they balked, he explained that murdering them was really the kind and loving thing to do, because you’re freeing the person from life’s burdens and hangups. Charlie called it “bringing them to now”; I wonder if Jehovah/Jesus used that phrase?
Murdering children is really doing them a favor. Infanticide is a blessing. Have you no idea how utterly reprehensible that sounds?
And, oh yeah, abortion should be outlawed.
Makes sense to me.
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Thank you DCL. For once we agree on something.
I have enjoyed the Trinity Hymnal in which several of those authors and composers are represented.
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Night Train.
I think that since God created the world and all that is in it, that it all belongs to him. Once you accept that, then many other things fall into place….
The Ten Commandments then begin to make much more sense. The commandment not to steal gives tacit approval to ownership. (At the very least it’s not wrong to own things!) The work of one’s hands then belongs to one. The precedent is seen in God’s ownership of his creation. The commandment not to murder then makes much more sense. Our lives, being the work of his hands, belong to him. He can use that life as he sees fit. It is his right as Creator.
If we as his creation rebel against him, then who are we to say that he is reprehensible in taking our lives, or unfair when he saves some lives but not others?
Which persons would you forgive if they harmed you or treated you badly? Those who were contrite and repentant, or those who actively kept seeking your harm? I suspect you would be more apt to forgive those who wanted your forgiveness.
None of the Old Testament is going to make any sense in any other context or perspective. You’ve heard the explanations before, but I’m just reminding you…
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NT, The specific church was the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North Amercia (still love their Psalm singing book). At least the PCA pastor listened long enough to tell me that I had every Biblical reason I needed to divorce my husband and to get off the fence and do it. Once I filed, however, the pastor insisted that I not say a word to anyone in the church about what was going on, or I would be disciplined. SO I couldn’t even request prayer, let alone what I really needed for my daily existence. Thank GOD there were two women there who knew how to file a restraining order, and apply for food stamps, etc.
which I ended up needing. Applying for a restraining order is one of the most sickening experiences I have ever had. Answering all those questions and reliving everything.
I tried to go back to the other PCA in our town, where I was known, and that pastor said it would be fine but not to take communion until they figured out “what was going on with me.” This church, unlike most PCA’s, practiced open communion which includes infants. A
triangle of reformed churches in that city that I am glad to be free of. I have a friend left there attending now a fourth reformed church in that same city. She finally admitted to me the other day that her husband BEAT her long enough that she realized he could kill her and she couldn’t defend herself. And this guy is studying to become a reformed pastor!!!!
They went to their pastor for counseling over this matter. The pastor met with them once and
never checked on her safety for the next 11 months. He didn’t direct her to help and didn’t provide any. Just led the husband through some sort of simple apology and listened to the abusive man’s minimizing statements, “Did I hit you this way, or did I push you like this?
Another Reformed Presbyterian Church of Noirth America we were in a few years before the divorce, and my husband (if you want to call him that) came home with condoms–he didn’t need these–
in his suitcase after his regular work travels, smashed our closet door to shreds, and I have forgotten what all (thank God) and this pastor just told him that he should say he was sorry.
All this unskilled leadership does is give more power to abusive men.
Read–Why Does He DO That? and
Spritual Abuse
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DCL, 35, “You know, if we had some decent classical music education in this country maybe people wouldn’t be intimitated by basic hymns that have been sung by congregations for centuries. …There’s so much good stuff, why settle for the drivel?”
Well said. Thank you!
I know of a number of schools around here, both public and private, that have excellent music programs, which gives me some hope that the next generation will know how to sing. My nephew’s high school chorus did The Messiah last month, and my aunt does a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta every spring with the middle- and high-school students at the Christian school where she teaches.
Like MiM, I like the Trinity Hymnal for worship.
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Is the Trinity Hymnal going to bring more men into churches?
The topic is about men leaving the church. Oh, classical music, that’ll bring ‘em back by the truckload!
My point is this: The Church presently has, and probably always has had, a “man problem.” The type of music has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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The Trinity Hymnal is used in churches that are oppressive. I know because I have been in many of these churches. I know one man who struggled with pornography said that he struggled with it more while in these very oppressive type churches because he needed a way to minister to people instead of focusing on what worms we all are!! The bible calls us righteous, godly, saints, and attaches all kinds of meaning to these words in the Psalms. I have been in many of them. The Psalms set you free. The hymnal enslaves you to an elite form of religion from what I have observed. Even the tunes in the Book of Psalms for Singing are uplifting!!
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We have a twenty seven year old who has slipped the bonds of church attendance. This topic interests me. I don’t think it is the music though.
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Stubob – How would you define the problem?
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Also, for any who would like to answer -
What do you think a proper church, “manly” but mostly godly, would be like?
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At the start of the new year I decided to start taking my family to a Plymouth Brethren assembly, rather than the contemporary church I had been attending for the past five years. It’s so nice to be back to a gathering that only sings from the hymnals on Sunday mornings.
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Karen O (47)– “Church” isn’t relevant to most men. Look in a concordance and see how many times we’re told to “submit.” We submit to one another, submit to godly authorities, submit to the civil government (godly or not), submit to Christ. Men want to control, not submit. They want to get ahead; giving up control doesn’t seem like a good way to do that. It seems childish, not manly. Then, as if the point was too subtle, we’re flat-out told that we should have a “child-like faith.” The Homer Simpson quotes above are, unfortunately, dead-on.
As an aside, this is why I believe fervently, passionately, in election. This faith goes against everything my natural self wants. But without it I am a puny, pathetic, lonely, and weak. . .man.
I have no short answer for #48, but I’m hoping someone does. . .
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Sure, the feminized thing in contemporary church is a problem, but having grown up Catholic, you see the same thing there. Most men only show up when they become dads or when the get old and time is running out.
IMHO, most Christian churches are authoritarian and phoney. One is expected to knuckle under and be led around wherever the pastor decrees. And you better keep your happy face glued in place at all times and not complain or admit to any struggles, or else the wrath of the faithful will descend on your head.
Most men don’t like being treated like that, and only the docile sheep stick around. Though church discipline is found in the Bible, it’s way too overapplied especially in evangelical churches.
Our church family is small and based on relationships and community. We feel this is more the model of the early church as found in Acts.
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Reg,
The Trinity Hymnal isn’t anything close to the problem. It’s the best hymnal that I’ve seen, and yes, my loving church with godly leadership uses the Trinity Hymnal.
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The Trinity Hymnal is used in churches that are oppressive.
. . .as are hardwood floors. I never worship in a church with hardwood floors. Or steam heat.
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#51 “And you better keep your happy face glued in place at all times and not complain or admit to any struggles, or else the wrath of the faithful will descend on your head.”
JayfromCleveland,
I can’t speak for how men view this, but I know that I would never go to a church like that again, now that I know there are churches that are not like that. Our senior pastor sometimes talks about his struggles with the sin of pride, wanting to appear to have it all together because that’s what people expect of their pastor, but knowing that it’s important for him to be honest about struggling with things just like the rest of us. Our worship leader often welcomes people to church by making mention of the “crap” that we all bring with us, including himself, and how wonderful it is that God loves us in spite of the crap and we can let go of the crap and worship him together. (He probably words it better than I did, but he’s very blunt about it.)
I don’t know how much of that is why the church is growing and has lots and lots of men of all ages active in various ways. While the church family as a whole is large, the big emphasis is on being part of a small group so that you do have the relationships and community that are so important, as well as the solid teaching and the encouragement of corporate worship in a large group.
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DCL,
Yes, Immortal, Invisible is a hard melody compared to Come, Now is the Time to Worship et al. given the intervals in it. The A A B A you refer to is the structure of the hymn not the melody. Most melodies in contemporary worship songs are based entirely on intervals of major seconds or thirds.
But I think we agree, really.
I also would to see an answer to #48 – I made the point last night at #17 that we don’t say what church should be (in order to be what men need), only that it shouldn’t be “sweet and sentimental, nurturing, and nice”.
Or is it, as StuBob intimates, that the problem isn’t about what men need, it’s about what they want.
JayfromCleveland: what church are you talking about that overapplies church discipline? Not any that I know of.
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Night Train – When I would occaisionally be asked a question about the men in my family (lots of hard core Marine vets and roughneck hockey players – and churchgoers), I would reply that we’re a very OT bunch, or remind them that 3/4 of teh Bible is OT.
I didn’t see religion as wimpy, because I knew some of the toughest, most macho men in the world and they went to church.
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Apart from the issue of music, which I’ve addressed. I reject this whole notion that men are staying away because of the “feminization” of the church. I think many of you are using language that suggests a real bias against women. So I reject that.
I think men stay away because church isn’t relevant to their lives. It doesn’t give them sufficient reason to intrude upon busy lives. They don’t find the sermons relevant. They don’t believe a lot of what’s taught. They aren’t sufficiently drawn into the community aspects of church or its social/philathorpic activities.
They don’t feel going to church makes a difference. I think a lot of men would rather volunteer with some organization than go sit there once a week and spend money to hear platitudes.
Why do they go back? Well, tradition. They feel like their kids need to have the same cultural/moral background they had. But do they really have a change of heart on the hard to swallow doctrines they left behind when they learned to think? No.
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It appears that people want to be bottle fed. A lot of talk of switching churches because “I wasn’t getting fed”. Perhaps these young men are not seeing what they would like and rather than put forth the effort to make it more appealing to their ilk, they head off to wherever the ilk are playing. Growth in the Lord seems to come more quickly when we actively participate rather than waiting for things to change. Sort of like expecting to see abs while being a couch potato or going to the gym.
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TRR #55
We were formerly involved in a church affiliated with a movement that heavy-handedly emphasized “submission to spiritual authority” (i.e. the pastor). There are many other churches, hence the market for books on “spiritual abuse.”
Pauline #54
Looks like you know what I’m talking about. We read of the struggles of pastors that begin with isolation and loneliness, and we always hear about “preacher’s kids” who rebel from pressure and neglect. But I think this is all symptomatic of “performance anxiety” in churches. Late in life Paul called himself the “chiefest of sinners.” That’s all I can boast of for my own self as well.
We read where Paul publicly called out Peter for being cowardly and refusing to eat with gentiles in front of the Jews. Peter was Paul’s elder, shouldn’t he have quietly submitted to that, or perhaps pulled Peter aside per Matthew 18? What if someone in today’s church were to publicly confront their senior pastor about sin? Whoa, there would surely be heck to pay!
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27 – Man I miss the OPC.
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Feminization is a serious problem, because when the girls/ladies move into traditionally male roles, the boys/men don’t fight it–they leave them to it, and find somewhere else where what they contribute AS MEN is valued–sports is one of the few remaining outposts.
Masculinity will out. If you don’t demonstrate to boys that the Christian religion is worthy of the respect and devotion of great men bringing all their lives, talents, minds, manhood–if you downplay men and boys’ meaningful and distinctive place in Biblical religion–if stylistically there is no majesty nor glory nor… well…spiritual toughness and sacrifice and “utmost for his highest” excellence, to challenge the whole self and awaken godly aspiration– the guys will go elsewhere to be men.
What commonly happens with altar boys is the classic example of this phenomenon (I speak from experience as an Anglican, but this also holds true of Roman Catholics). If you don’t have enough altar boys, you figure a good remedy is to bring in their sisters as altar girls, and while you’re at it, you can call everyone an “altar server.” But this backfires–because boy acolytes become a rarity.
Why is this especially troubling? Because acolytes are the first rung of sacramental service in a liturgical church, where many a priest first begins to discern his vocation; and down the road, you can look for a shortage of priests.
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57-thanks for this–from a man?
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My church has hardwood floors and steam heat. I haven’t noticed any abuse there.
I agree with kBells and Peter Leavett. And StuBob most of the time.
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62-yes.
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NightTrain:
Your arguments in #37 are not credible. They are simply the products of your own distorted personal views. The most telling of your gross distortions is your claim that God is a racist. You cannot support that view in any objective fashion.
If the Bible really supported the concept and practice of slavery as you falsely and ignorantly claim, then the Christian world would be engaging in the practice. We follow the Bible as our rule of faith and practice. We know what it says and means; you obviously do not. If it approved of slavery, then that is what we would be doing. In reality, Christianity has been the most active force in the world AGAINST slavery. You simply do not know what you are talking about.
Your statements in #39 are even worse. I won’t even dignify them with the label of arguments. You comparison of God with Charles Manson reveals blindness, ignorance, and even a deliberate maliciousness that is truly astounding. To speak evil of God is evil itself.
Is 31:6 “For the fool speaks folly, his mind is busy with evil: He practises ungodliness and spreads error concerning the LORD…”
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Funny that most (not all) of the heros in the Bible were men, and so was Jesus, and God is portrayed as at least more masculine than feminine… and yet we get love songs to Jesus, purple and white Christian books stores, a bunch of Christian fiction about romances on the American frontier featuring country girls as the main characters. And look! Men are leaving! Maybe church has lost touch with its founding document…
That said, I go to church, but would personally like a bit more involvement. My home church is all right at that, but despite its mostly-male leadership, it still somehow feels a little woman-centered. I can’t tell you how good it feels to actually do something at church — setting up tables, stacking chairs, whatever. I’m guessing that offering more opportunities to do stuff beyond sitting still for a sermon or socializing idly with people you don’t have time to know would help keep men around.
I also like smallish churches (50-500 people) better than bigger ones. You feel more like a family than a club.
Also, my pastor for a while has wanted to start a study or group type of thing specifically for all the men in our church, from teens to seniors. Once the new associate pastor comes on and takes some of the administrative duties, I think that’ll help retain young men (that’s what it’s designed to do) and remove the age barriers.
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Cuthalion,
Good to hear, about liking to help. I get a little sad (a lot) when I see eighty year old men setting up the tables (they brush the fifty year old women aside) as the teen boys and girls sit around talking or playing games. Which is why they don’t stay sitting when I see them.
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Well alrighty then!
Let’s move on to why men hate going to church part II
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I don’t think music, feminizing or anything above is why men are leaving. It will be difficult for me to explain it in a small spot like this. I think the cause is a very deeply imbedded tradition, made up by men and maintained by men, all of them very sincere and godly but falling very short of God’s design for His church. My reason is the clergy – laity gap. This has been around so long, most people consider it normal. It is not normal with God. It severely warps His design for His church. It forces the church to behave outside it’s created identity. It is much like the aberration of homosexuality which draws people to feel normal, loving, etc, all the while living far outside their created sexual identity.
The clergy-laity dichotomy severely warps God’s design for male leadership in many ways. One example of many: The professionalized shepherd is pedestalized as a singular spiritually intelligent man and every other male is a degraded, dumb sheep. In the main gathering of believers EVERY WEEK, the pastor will do 99% of the personal expression of truth. 99% of men will sit there for twenty years of “being taught” the Word and NEVER be seen as learned enough to speak for even 5 minutes to all the saints. This is all normal inside the “BOX”. A simple observation of God’s Word shows how warped this is. The main verse that says believers are supposed to “not forsake gathering” is surrounded by what believers are supposed to do that demonstrates they are gathering – “provoking one another to love and good works” and “encouraging one another”. Need I say more? This is obviously a participative gathering that is HIGHLY relational. The pew and pulpit routine is the exact OPPOSITE and is well known as a spectator sport with very little retention or reproduction of truth resulting from the HIGH cost of this event. This does not even qualify as coming even close to what God is asking for.
This is only one scripture and one example. There are may more. Even “preach the Word, in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort” does not say lecture the Word for 45 minutes and only by a hired expert. How can the Holy Spirit convict a man of the “sin of not going to church” when what is happening there is not what the Holy Spirit asked for? Many men do show up at church and feel “guilty” if they don’t. My suggestion is, this is not by conviction of the HS, it’s by fear of violating people’s expectations.
The institutionalized “form” of church is severely broken. God’s grace is able to use it in many ways in spite of it’s severe error. There is too much money to be made be the system to question it. There is too much convenience, comfort, predictability and laziness for rich believers to question it. Men not showing up is only one of MANY symptoms of systemic failure.
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What TIMA wrote in comment 69 resounds exactly with what I believe the problem is.
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TIMA, excellent point.
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69-great job. I said elsewhere that it is like each church designs, defines, and distributes its own brand of salvation, and keeps its members from growing beyond that. Growth beyond “salvation” would threaten our admiration of the clergy, which would threaten growth of the church.
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Young believers and non-believers need to see Christian men who are godly, but not prissy and self-righteous in their actions. Pastors and leading men in the church need to get their hands dirty with “real” work sometimes. I grew up as a preacher’s kid, so I know that pastors really work, but men outside the church (and some inside) don’t see the pastor’s job as real work. I think men in general would much rather be doing something active than singing and listening to a sermon. If, however, they see that the sermon leads to action (helping the widows, poor, getting involved in community activities), then it may make more sense. I applaud some churches that have started a “Men for missions” group. The men in the group help people in the church with home repairs for a small charge. The money goes into a pot which is then used to send men on short-term missions trips.
Men need to spend time doing things with other men. Churches need to develop ways of meeting that need or men will find other groups that meet that need (ie. sports teams, drinking or poker buddies, etc.).
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Tima #69
Yes yes yes.. can others take and expand elaborate on this?
I went to a church where in the couples Sunday school one man opened the gathering with announcemts. He’d then ask another to lead us in prayer and/or solicit prayer requests. Then if we were lucky we’d have a 3rd and 4th man strum guitars and lead us in singing one or two tunes.
A fifth man would finally be tapped to present a “lesson” he’d prepared on a theme/topic class members had solicited.
Since these were young marrieds it often dealt with financial stewardship or child-rearing.
I realize the experience at that church was unique. We had a large university nearby. Many of the newly/nearly wed were from the enormous Singles or Collegiate Sunday School depts. Of those some had been or were on staff of parachurch campus ministries.
Contrast all that with the church near Ft Hood. We file into a room. No singing. No division of tasks. One guy leads or attempts to lead a discussion on a lesson drafted by someone up in Nashville none of us has ever met.
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TIMA reminds me of the cringe-inducing amateur-comedian bop that seems to thought necessary from many a modern pulpit. Pastor Godly-But-Kewl will deliver LAME one liners in a kind of stand-up performance, from PowerPoint song through Close In Word of Prayer.
These jests unfailingly produce a wave of appreciative titter. Not even just a courtesy laugh–no, concerted groupie laugh support. Everything the pastor says is construed as wonderfully witty. Doubtless he begins to think he IS witty.
Cringe inducing!!!!! What guy can stand this?
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73 – Great post! We had a pastor who mentioned once that he’d asked his son if he wanted to be a pastor when he grew up. His answer was, “No, Dad. I want to work”. Yikes.
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Tima (69) — Great post, worth some serious thought. . . .
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I can only speak for myself, although my husband has read Tima’s post and didn’t agree with it, and I don’t either.
The Church Tima speaks of is foreign to our Church. We have as many men as women attending. It is a large church, with three services on Sunday, preaching to a total of 6,000 including all morning services. We have services on Sunday evening, which is an in-depth Bible Study. One of two pastors are in charge, most Sunday mornings and Sunday evenings. The Sunday evening service lasts longer, the Bible study isn’t a short one, but lasts about an hour and a half, that doesn’t count time for singing, etc.
Our services during the week, include other pastors who are part of our church, and preach/speak on different nights. The place is packed. It’s a no nonsense preaching, teaching from the pulpit.
Women do not preach or teach from the pulpit in our church.
If I was going to some of the churches described here, I would find another one FAST.
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Things I see men doing at our church:
Music is led by our worship pastor plus a handful of other musicians (most but not all men) playing guitar, trombone, drums, etc. (The group varies from week to week in size, instruments played, and who plays. One man who plays occasionally is a fiddler.) I realize a lot of people do not care for singing contemporary music, but it does tend to give them musically-talented men a way to participate that they might not have with traditional hymns (especially the percussionists). One of the percussionists is from Latin America; he speaks some English but not as well as Spanish. The worship leader sometimes has him lead the congregation in prayer because he prays fervently from the heart. It’s mostly in Spanish so I don’t know how many people besides me and a few others understand his words, but they know he is leading them in praising God.
A few of these musicians are part of a group, with the worship leader, who play on Friday nights at various places – nothing to do with church, the same kind of places that my co-workers who have bands play in. They don’t play specifically Christian music, but music (written most by the worship leader) that expresses the yearnings of people for what is real and true, or the sadness of dealing with the brokenness of life. People relate to it, and over time they have the chance to share their faith, though they don’t use it as a platform for preaching.
There is a Hunters Banquet once a year that is a big draw. Not just men, of course, but the majority tend to be. There are booths set up by a whole lot of vendors related to hunting (equipment, meat processing, training, etc.), and some instructional seminars. Then a dinner (pot luck, at least the side dishes), and a keynote speaker afterward (a hunter with a faith perspective). I don’t know who does all the planning but I bet it’s mostly laypeople.
There are dozens of small groups (it’s a church of around a thousand) for Bible study, prayer, and fellowship. Some men’s, some women’s, but mostly mixed, which are led by men or couples. So that’s quite a number of lay leaders.
There’s a drama group (of anyone with the interest and ability to participate) that puts on skits occasionally as part of the worship service, and they also help with the children’s curriculum which includes acting out a lot of Bible stories for the children. Bible characters are mostly men, and while sometimes you take who’s available and they act as whoever they need to be, it’s good that there’s a number of men/teenagers willing to do this.
The children’s classes in general take a lot of volunteers. Not just to teach the lesson but as small group leaders, people to handle attendance, “door monitors” (mostly men) to make sure that no one gets in without being properly signed it (for the safety of the children). The teenagers help a lot, both as group leaders and music leaders.
There’s been a bunch of construction going on, since the church purchased a shopping center a few years ago, and only converted some of the areas for church use as funds allowed. As more funds come in, more work is done. I don’t know how much is done by church people vs contractors, but I know some of the work is volunteer. Especially making the “Kidztown” look really cool, with “storefronts” for the different classrooms.
There’s a men’s ministry that went dormant for a while but is getting started again under the leadership of a friend of ours. I don’t know a lot of what they do of course, but it’s not just sitting around talking or studying.
There’s a local group that helps rebuild/repair houses for the elderly/disabled, and a lot of people (not all men but a lot are) from the church participate. Ditto with the Salvation Army red kettle campaign at Christmastime.
I’m sure there’s more I don’t know about.
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One reason men are leaving the church or don’t attend at all is because most preachers gear their sermons to the women and youth. It is rare that I hear men specifically addressed in the pulpit.
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Bianca,
It’s rare that I hear gender-specific anything addressed from the pulpit. (My pastor actually refers to us all as God’s “sons,” though, so there’s not much danger of his feminizing the message!) How can a sermon by a man be mostly geared to women and youth? Sounds tricky.
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#80 “most preachers gear their sermons to the women and youth.”
Bianca,
That’s foreign to my experience also. Like Cheryl, I have only occasionally heard sermons geared to any particular group, and then it is usually on a special day such as Mother’s Day and Father’s Day.
I have never made any attempt to keep track, but I would have guessed that more lessons were geared to men than women. I have heard sermons on the importance of spiritual leadership in the home – aimed at men. I have heard sermons warning people not to spend too much time at work earning money and not enough time at home – both for men and women but workaholics tend to be men. I have heard sermons on anger, and on pride – apply to both men and women but my impression is that they tend to be more of an issue for men.
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Cheryl and Pauline,
I agree with both of you. The messages, teaching and preaching at our Church is geared to giving out the gospel, it isn’t a female or a male oriented message. Our pastors preach from the Word of God, and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The Word of God is to all, therefore the messages are to all, including the youth.
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69-There was an orange pamphlet about 18 years ago that I had called the Open Church that addressed some of these kinds of issues.
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Dang. I don’t know how I didn’t see this when it wa initially posted. Anyway, I’m struggling with the real pain expressed by several here who were caught in spiritually abusive situations and took from that experience the idea that any church with strong male leadership necessarily tends toward abuse and a lack of compassion.
I’ve previously attended a similarly abusive church. All the symptoms were there: despotic, nepotistic pastor, women seen and not heard, single men as 2nd class citizens, and a lackey elder board.
Fortunately, I was able to get out of that situation and into a fantastic PCA church where there is strong male leadership AND a vibrant women’s ministry. I can’t really comment on the quality of the women’s ministry at my church (only on the quality of the women who attend it), but I wouldn’t necessarily see it as an either/or: the presence of a women’s ministry does not mean that men are marginalized. And strong men in leadership must also see themselves as servants first and foremost, otherwise they do become dictators.
I think there’s a lot of looking at symptoms, whether positive (hymnals) or negative (schmaltzy music), and really it’s easy to get into the idea that all this is fixable if we just set upon the right formula. The fact is that the Church is made up of sinful people, some of whom make egregiously bad decisions, and others who just make bad decisions. Until our sanctification is complete, we’re stuck with an imperfect bride of Christ. But just like you’d never insult another man’s wife, so we shouldn’t insult the Church to Christ’s face. That doesn’t mean that the Church is above criticism, but that She’s the only Church we’ve got and we’re commanded to love her and look for her peace.
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Reg – 84
Are you acquainted with Tima?
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For more information about TIMA’s comment, look up books written by Greg Ogden…I had actually taught a class on this several years ago. It’s insightful stuff…about how the church as institution (programs, the lay/clergy divide) should give way to organism (utilizing personal gifts/all are ministers). Here, a church and its ministry is shaped by the gifts of the members and how they meet the needs of the community/ world…and not about pastors squeezing volunteers into pre-existing slots. Sort of a decentralizing of the church. The pastors in turn, lead by mentoring and equipping their fellow ministers, no longer in a position of being sole minister. we are all called to be ministers…it’s biblical.
Is that why men bail? I never thought about that…and if that’s the case, then why would women thus still thrive? Probably because many Christian woman are of the “submitted” culture…but I’ve also learned that many budding “Deborahs” that desire to step out and minister are often treated as Jezebels. So, not only men feel squeezed.
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In #69, TIMA touches upon a concept I’ve mentioned before:
Mat 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
(In computer programming lingo, “Go and teach all I have commanded” is a recursive statement, since it is itself a commandment.)
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
How long should it take before a person becomes a teacher, i.e., one who is able to cogently set forth the fundamentals of the faith?
Going beyond the fundamentals, the Word is deep and rich; part of our “encouraging one another”, as TIMA quoted, is sharing our insights into the Scriptures with one another.
Music? The best experience I had was with a group that had an excellent pianist who could play whatever was set before him. Being a Quaker style worship, there was no set list of songs, but a hymnal and a chorus book for everyone. During the course of worship, anyone could request any song, if it was an expression of their praise and worship. Everyone, out of love for that person, would sing it to the best of their ability. We sang a lot, and the abilities were tremendous.
Now I’m at a different church and find myself leading pre-K to 6th graders in music every Sunday morning. Can’t imagine them belting out, “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God”, or “Rise Up O Man Of God” (I like the Phil Keaggy version), but they love, “Our God is an awesome God!” with both verses.
The adult Sunday school teacher, a carpenter with a Ph.D. in Biblical Greek who has taught in Russia in THEIR native tongue, was bemoaning the feminization of the church one morning. He’s a great guy, and not without a sense of humor, so I couldn’t help but share with him later the passage of Scripture my daily reading presented that afternoon, where Jesus says:
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
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81 and 82 – you both made some good points, but I just have a hard time finding a lot in common with the preaching of men like Spurgeon and most of the men we hear in pulpits today. I see a huge difference.
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Bianca, 89 – I would certainly agree with you that there are not many modern-day Spurgeons in our churches. But I think it’s also good to remember that there weren’t many preachers like Spurgeon in his time!
A “prince of preachers” doesn’t come along every day. There were other men working alongside Spurgeon, faithfully preaching Christ and “making disciples of all nations”, whose sermons weren’t printed for posterity and whose names are not remembered now. They may not have had Spurgeon’s gifts of communication, and their churches were smaller, but God still blessed their faithfulness.
What we need now are godly men who boldly and faithfully preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, as Spurgeon did. We need the consistent, fervent prayers of God’s people to uphold our church leaders, as in Spurgeon’s congregations. And we need faithful obedience from the “people in the pews”, living out their faith every day, sharing the truth and reality of Jesus Christ with those around us.
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Thanks, Rob Hays. Good insights.
I do think that’s one of the strengths of the PCA, to be elder-led (team led), strengthening the pastor and allowing more to use their gifts, and also freeing up women to use their gifts more. (Those outside the PCA would expect to see squashed-down women, but the opposite is the case. We have thriving women’s ministries.)
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