Morality test
The study of morality, once only the province of people who actually believed in it, is now the new new thing in the materialistic universe of science. This is a good thing (science should study everything it can study, knowing its limitations) and a bad thing (science can only let itself make proclamations about material causes, and so can be counted on to be wrong much of the time). Anyhow, at least the author of this leviathon piece from the Times magazine understands the difficulty of saying that every moral judgment is a matter of evolution and chemical reaction: “If morality is a mere trick of the brain, some may fear, our very grounds for being moral could be eroded.”
Indeed. After some interesting thought experiments and facts and non-facts, the author, Steven Pinker, gets down to brass tacks about the origins and purposes and operations of morality. In the passage below, when he says “the scientific outlook,” he’s talking about the worldview that refuses to consider any non-physical phenomena as actually real. In other words, love, joy, right, and wrong are chemical reactions and nothing more. Notice how he dances around the implications of what he’s suggesting, all the while seeming to acknowledge it:
The scientific outlook has taught us that some parts of our subjective experience are products of our biological makeup and have no objective counterpart in the world. The qualitative difference between red and green, the tastiness of fruit and foulness of carrion, the scariness of heights and prettiness of flowers are design features of our common nervous system, and if our species had evolved in a different ecosystem or if we were missing a few genes, our reactions could go the other way. Now, if the distinction between right and wrong is also a product of brain wiring, why should we believe it is any more real than the distinction between red and green? And if it is just a collective hallucination, how could we argue that evils like genocide and slavery are wrong for everyone, rather than just distasteful to us?
His answer is not very convincing. What do we do when we recognize (as materialists, which I am not) that everything is meaningless matter and that morality is nothing but a vapor? According to Pinker and just about every other materialist since the Enlightenment, we can do nothing but ignore the implications of the horror of the idea we won’t let ourselves not believe.




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back to top42 Comments to “Morality test”
Good post Harrison. It is good to think about morality. If done honestlyk, the more we do, the more likely we are to come to the point of considering a place for faith in God in our lives.
“Do away with religion and everything is acceptable.” Fyodor Dostoyevski.
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I am reminded of Plato’s analogy of the cave. Materialists (experiential reductionists) are like the prisoners stuck in a cave only able to look in one direction–their gaze is fixed to a wall with shadows cast upon it. The materialists are those who categorize and name those shapes presuming they are the sum of all reality. They idolize their own observations and their own restricted frame of reference.
When an outside source of awareness and knowledge tries to reveal a higher truth to some prisoners, they don’t want to be set free. In fact, it seems to the materialists like the higher form of knowledge is a lower form of knowledge (like reductionist scientists who ridicule more open-minded scientists who can respect a place for a transcendent deity in their view of reality).
The tangible world is the cave. The things which the materialists perceive as real are actually just shadows on a wall. We need to open our minds to a view of reality that can transcend our own observations and experiences.
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So tired of being beaten with the sledgehammer known as religion.
Once again, there is the suggestion that those not attuned to the occult don’t really have very good morals.
It’s too bad that want to use Mother Teresa as an example. She was known to have spent much time staying with dictators and accepting their illicit money. There were constant complaints from the families she took care of that they weren’t allowed to visit their “loved ones” after they entered her “care”. There were complaints that she withheld medicine and pain killers from the sick because she believed that the more you suffered on earth, the more likely you would find “paradise”. Where did these stories come from? Other sisters she worked with. Many reports that the money meant for the poor ended up in fancy convents. This is the type of “moral” person the Catholic Church wants to make a “saint”. Why doesn’t that suprise me? Gold chalice anyone?
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For secular materialists, the only trascendent, objective reality is that there absolutely are no absolutes. This self-contradicting presupposition is the foundation for their epistemology, metaphysics and ethics.
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Notice how he dances around the implications of what he’s suggesting, all the while seeming to acknowledge it:
Yes, maybe in that paragraph it appears as though Pinker is dancing around implications. But not in the next:
PS I wouldn’t normally cut and paste so much of a linked article but this paragraph seems to “un-dance” around those implied implications.
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For secular materialists, the only trascendent, objective reality is that there absolutely are no absolutes.
When you get a secular materialist to tell you that there are 99 centimetres in a metre, I’ll consider that secular materialists believe there are no absolutes. Until then, stop making up codswallop.
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Heh heh…
100 cent. in a metre eh? I should have my son who is/was a physic major and tutors folks in calculus explain something about infinite area in a triangle sometime. Or something like that. If you can show me in the real physical world something that is exactly 100 centimeters (0 margin of error) sometime, then we’ll talk about whether scientists believe in absolutes or not.
Everyone believes in absolutes Flaming, everyone. They may say they don’t believe in absolutes, but they do. Of course one must specify what absolutes one pretends not to believe in though…
Moral absolutes?
Absolute Meaning?
Absolute temperature?
For the first two, one must admit to an absolute integration point, or infinite Creator being.
Harrison is not making up codswallop which you would know if you’d stop muddying the waters and think just a second.
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Heh, heh. Interesting post, MiM. Along the same lines, I can show very simply, mathematically, that .9 = 1 as well (I have 3 degrees in mathematics and not science, and I am not “secular” in my worldview, so this may not count).
The paragraph quoted is also problematic, as it seems that the author is unaware that there is an ontological distinction between the god of Plato and the God of the Bible. Perhaps Mr. Pinker has been reading too much about Flying Spaghetti Monsters and other strawmen.
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Make it Man,
…real physical world something that is exactly 100 centimeters (0 margin of error) sometime…
You’re moving the goal posts, but I suspect that you got my point anyway.
Of course one must specify what absolutes one pretends not to believe in though…
And that’s where the disagreements exist. Are the things people claim to be absolute actually absolute? Also consider, to what degree will human perception override absolutes anyway.
Harrison is not making up codswallop…
I didn’t specify who I was quoting in that post…it wasn’t Harrison. I accused Fulcrumprime (#4) of manufacturing codswallop for blanketly declaring that secular materialists don’t believe in absolutes.
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It’s a logic error anyway. To categorically state “there are no absolutes” is an absolute.
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Now, if the distinction between right and wrong is also a product of brain wiring, why should we believe it is any more real than the distinction between red and green? And if it is just a collective hallucination, how could we argue that evils like genocide and slavery are wrong for everyone, rather than just distasteful to us?
These are important questions (realizations?) for Pinker to ask. Even if one disagrees with his answers, he seems to have his finger on the pulse of the problem.
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RDean,
No such thing, but your response is a common red herring. I guess you have to do something to divert attention since you can’t rationally address the real problem.
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Flaming Icarus,
I have to admit up front that I haven’t read the article, but if that’s where he stops, he’s being a little disingenuous. There is disagreement about how to solve the Euthyphro dilemma, but it’s not like philosophers and theologians have been sitting on their hands since the time of Plato. This difficulty is in a different category than the one faced by atheists.
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To say that material secularists say they don’t believe in absolutes is a little imprecise. What I mean when I say that kind of thing, is that a material secularist’s world view does not allow for moral absolutes or absolute meaning. In fact most of them will tell you they don’t believe in it.
I re-assert that they do though…
I agree with Harrison, the empericist, atheist, agnostic, material secularist etc. who claims that what we see is all there is, and makes no allowance for the supernatural or even claims that there is no supernatural, is left with a relative morality) and relative meaning (since morals and belief systems just evolved.
There aren’t any moral or ontological absolutes if there isn’t a God. It’s very illogical to claim that there are if there is no God. And as Steve G points out, to say that there are no absolutes is a statement which begs the question.
I think that there are moral and ontological absolutes for quite a few reasons. That human beings cannot live as thought there are no absolute morals or meaning is an indication to me, that there is a God who defines these things by his relationship with his creation.
(Someone please tell me if I’m using the word “ontological” correctly in place of “meaning absolutes”. “Meaning absolutes” just sounded clumsy and “absolute meaning” wasn’t really the way I wanted to put it.)
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Does the believer in God have moral absolutes, though? We often hear this claimed, but no one ever demonstrates just how.
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HARRISON –
Try this experiment. While sitting calmly in a chair, momentarily turn OFF your moralization switch. With the switch back on, ask yourself, “Did the stars look like they were about to fall in the ocean?” Good. Now wait for something bad to happen, and try again to turn OFF your moralization switch. See what happens. Do things get worse? Do they get better anyway? Check your pulse. If it’s lower, you may want to turn OFF your moralization switch in more and more difficult situations.
Knowing you have the switch and can turn it off and on may be a good thing for you and those around you. As Pinker says, “the science of the moral sense can . . . be seen as a way to strengthen those grounds, by clarifying what morality is and how it should steer our actions.”
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“Does the believer in God have moral absolutes…”
I think it would be more correct to say that moral absolutes are logical in a Christian world view, and are not in an Atheistic world view.
- given that Christianity is true, then yes the believer in God has moral absolutes. God establishes moral absolutes.
I’m not quite sure what you mean when you say, “but no one ever demonstrates just how.”
Could you elucidate how you think this should be done?
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MIM #17:
There are two divergent points.
Point One: What are the moral absolutes and how do we know them? Is abortion wrong? Some Christians say it always is; some say it usually is not; some say it depends on the specific circmustances. All of them, when pressed to explain the diverging opinions on this supposed absolute, will say it’s because those who disagree don’t “really understand” what God wants.
Point Two: “Absolute” implies there are certain core moral principles that are always true all the time with no exceptions. Is that even possible? I’m not sure.
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Underlying all of my answers to your questions is the fact that God is the creator of all and thus the owner of all. Without that underpinning, none of what I say will make any sense. Again, I recommend this study of the Ten Commandments:
http://doulomen.tripod.com/sermons/sermons_10command.htm
After following these sermons, the ten commandments made much more sense, even to myself, who has been attending church since infancy.
Point One:
Perhaps Jesus answer is the best one we could give. The greatest commandment is this: Love God, and the second is like it: Love man. This sums up the intent and purpose of the law.
What he had in mind was at least these 10 commandments. These are a concise summary of all that the law was based upon. Notice that all of these hinge upon God being the creator and owner of all of creation.The first half of the commandments directed us to respect and love the Creator. All of the commandments that had to do with love of your fellow man are stated in the negative, but are meant in the positive to protect our “rights” as a creation of God.
Point two:
I would assert that these absolutes (Ten Commandments) are principles, and must be taken as such. Are they always true with no exceptions? The classic attempt to disprove God given absolutes is the assertion that “Thou Shalt Not Kill” is not adhered to with no exceptions. The next assertion will be that the Hebrew annihilation of other peoples proves this is not an absolute.
First of all, it is better translated “Thou shalt not murder”. (I refer you again to the study linked above.) The indiscriminate use of “kill” in this commandment does not do justice to the meaning of the hebrew word. If you use the word “kill”, then you’ve just made nonsense out of the rest of the law in which God perscribes death for murder. Second of all, if God owns all life, does this not give him the right to use it as he sees fit? The commandment is not directed toward God after all….
No exceptions? You tell me… is it always best to love God and love your fellow man?
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I would assert that these absolutes (Ten Commandments) are principles, and must be taken as such.
The problem is, some of the Ten Commandments are unconstitutional.
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MIM at #19: I would assert that these absolutes (Ten Commandments) are principles, and must be taken as such. Are they always true with no exceptions? The classic attempt to disprove God given absolutes is the assertion that “Thou Shalt Not Kill” is not adhered to with no exceptions. The next assertion will be that the Hebrew annihilation of other peoples proves this is not an absolute.
First of all, it is better translated “Thou shalt not murder”. (I refer you again to the study linked above.) The indiscriminate use of “kill” in this commandment does not do justice to the meaning of the hebrew word. If you use the word “kill”, then you’ve just made nonsense out of the rest of the law in which God perscribes death for murder. Second of all, if God owns all life, does this not give him the right to use it as he sees fit? The commandment is not directed toward God after all….
Would you murder Hitler to prevent the Holocaust? It would be murder if you did it before he actually did anything. For all you know, he might change his mind just before killing the first Jews, and your murdering of him would take away the chance for a personal redemption. But would it be the wrong thing to do?
Would you steal in order to provide food for your children? Bear false witness if you knew you could “frame a guilty man” who might otherwise never get just penalty for his crimes?
How do you know whether you are coveting? Capitalism is to some extent based on stroking people’s envy, to get them to want to buy things they feel give them status or security. If you support an economic system that includes that principle, are you undermining obedience to the 10th commandment?
Even the 10 Commandments are not as clear-cut as they seem at first.
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“The problem is, some of the Ten Commandments are unconstitutional.”
And why are we dragging constitution into the discussion?
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Steve…
Would I murder Hitler to prevent holocaust? I probably would.
Does that mean that there are no moral absolutes? I don’t think so… I think it means that it’s wrong to murder, but more wrong to let Hitler murder millions….
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As for the coveting commandment… I would like to point out that there are several commandments taht folks don’t really interpret well. Again, I refer you to the study I linked above. It is well worth reading even if you aren’t a Christian. At least you won’t have fundamental misunderstandings about the ten commandments.
The one I’ve already partially dealt with; “Thou shalt not kill”, is better translated “Thou shalt not murder”. Granted you bring up a good point, and I’m not entirely sure how to answer it other than the one I gave you above.
Another commandment:
Thou shalt no lie, would be better interpreted (and should be) “Don’t steal your neighbors good reputation.” It actually “Thou shalt not bear false witness”. Which has quite another connotation than mere lying.
Another commandment:
Thou shalt not covet.
I believe we should define “covet”. Covet is nothing more than improper desire. Now get this. Desire in and of itself is not improper. If I desire to have property, it’s not wrong. If I specifically desire my neighbor’s property, and do everythign I can think of to take it from him, that’s covetousness. Capitalism may give rise to some covetousness, and may have some other problems, which I won’t deny, but it’s far from being as evil as the socialists would have us believe.
I will again point out Jesus summary of the law.
Love God, love man. The commandments are the principles behind that intent.
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Jesus’s summary is good but it’s a statement of two principles that sound easier than they are. Once we start talking about just what they actually mean in practice, the picture gets muddy fast.
However, there is a much bigger problem with the idea that God is the center of moral absolutes, and it’s this: Do you believe that everything God does is good because God does it? Or do you believe that everything God does is good because God cannot do what is evil?
This matters because if we define “good” as whatever God does, then we have to accept that things attributed to God (if we believe the revelation, as most Christians here do) are good even when they seem to our understanding hard to comprehend. God can behave capriciously and inconsistently, but we have to hold that be good.
On the other hand, if we say God is good because God can do no evil, that implies God is not the source of the absolute truth. The statement measures God against an existing standard.
Either way, I think, leads to a philosophical difficulty.
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I think there is a reason that God’s name is “I AM”. He is the source of all existence.
You say that “God can behave capriciously and inconsistently and that we have to hold that to be good.” I say that as finite imperfect beings we don’t have a whole lot of perspective to say or demonstrate how God is capricious and inconsistent. It may seem so to us, because we have such a shallow understanding of the whole of the universe, much less the earth and all that is in it. If we knew all the details of every situation, then perhaps we might be able to apprehend whether God is indeed capricious and inconsistent. But suffice it to say, that it can be demonstrated just in the last few posts how poor our understanding of God is. We don’t even understand the ten commandments well, and they’ve been around for thousands of years. How do you think we stack up against God?
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Obviously I reject the second notion that God is only good because he can do no evil. I’d say he does no evil because he is good.
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#26: So good is defined as whatever God says it is?
#27: The point of the second notion is that anytime we speak of God being good, we’re alluding to a standard that defines good that is apart from God.
How would we know God is good unless we already have an understanding of what good is?
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#19
The next assertion will be that the Hebrew annihilation of other peoples proves this is not an absolute…
…Second of all, if God owns all life, does this not give him the right to use it as he sees fit? The commandment is not directed toward God after all….
Part of my issue with the Christian take on morality is the dance around things like genocide or infanticide.
God ordered the killing of an entire race, wiped out most people on earth and killed a whole bunch of firstborn lads. If God is good then He cannot do evil. It is therefore impossible to declare that genocide, mass killings and infanticide are absolutely evil. It doesn’t matter if these are “judgements” or “purposeful acts” because, even if they’re random acts done by God, they must be considered good acts if God is good and can do no evil.
And no, this doesn’t mean that we humans are permitted to behave as God does and enact genocidal judgements on other people. But what kind of template of morality does that leave us with? “Do as I say and not as I do”? “X is always wrong unless I, your God, do it”?
The unfathomable, mysterious ways of an unimpeachable God may sound like a good explanation, but it does nothing for the fact that the unfathomable, mysterious, unimpeachable God has left us with mass-infanticide as something that’s not always bad.
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Harrison, little buddy, can you possibly understand the difference between ‘mere matter’ and ‘matter’?
Do you think that everyone is as stupid as you wish to sound? ‘Mere matter’? The only people who say this are Poof-believers and other occultists that have absolutely no evidence for their ethereal spheres or humours or ethers, yet declare that they exist and anyone who does not admit that the emperor has the finest of all clothes is not only evil but immoral and probably beats puppies or has sex with dodo birds.
Oh, how ignorant the world seems when you have your head buried in the sand, Dear Harrison.
When you come up for air, a snack or a bathroom break, consider that you are hungering after ‘mere’ matter. Tell me then dear Harrison, if that delicious steak (dead, cooked, for all the world looks like ‘mere matter’ to both you and a materialist, O Sophist) is just ‘mere’ matter then.
I can only wonder if you aware that you perpetuate dishonesty, or if you are simply a victim of a mass dumbing.
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I started reading the article but was called away to escort my daughter to ballet practise. In coming back I have discovered the NYT has restricted access. Its too bad since I enjoy reading Pinker’s work — he’s extremely readable.
Pinker is a well known intellectual in the field of linguistics and psychology. Most of his work centers on the impact of heredity, biology and evolution upon the operations of the mind.
The ethical or the moral demand for a God is a poor argument for the existence of trandscendence as SteveG points out some of the numerous contradictions and problems which arise. God is then seen as an anchor or an external justification for the moral internal judgments we make everyday. Once morality has been externalized , humans can critique and assess it. Looking for coherence and continuity, we can quickly sense the lack of absolutes and the ad hoc process of moral decision making. We are then left with a whimsical God, an incomplete God or God and Good as separate entities. The argument that its our vision which is limited is an appeal to ignorance. As humans we make decisions and our decision making focuses on the known. To use the unknown to make decisions is to rely on guesswork and improvisation. We work with what we know and adjust as our knowledge changes.
Joel started the thread by arguing for a dualistic approach and a separation of the material and spiritual. Very post-Cartesian and neoplatonic of him but not necessarily good theology (its not reformed or Kuyperian). In this view, he claims Pinker limits himself to the material, the shadows in the cave. However he also limits himself as do others on this thread with the idea of a separation of the transcendental and the material. Perhaps the transcendental is not out there creating the shadows we see but instead it is part of the material created within the neurological connections of our brain.
The means by which what we traditionally consider transcendental is infused within what we refer to as the material is something for people like Pinker to explore. Until we either distinguish the two concepts entirely or integrate them as one, we can only assured of one thing and that is our knowledge of the world around and how we interact with it. Starting with what we know, we can make moral decisions based on nothing more than what our mind has taught is right. In this way, we don’t dismiss the possibility of the transcendental by either means but we also continue to decide on the basis of the known factors, causes and effects as opppossed to a hypothetical created merely to serve as anchor or to place responsibility outside of ourselves.
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#12: I guess you have to do something to divert attention since you can’t rationally address the real problem.
What problem?
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Steve G says:
“So good is defined as whatever God says it is?”
In a nutshell. Yes. I know you think that presents a problem, but I do not.
This shall be an answer to both your question and to Flaming Icarus.
Flaming Icarus says that Christians dance around the issue of genocide and infanticide and wiping out the whole population of earth. I admit it is a thorny issue, but exhort you all to keep a few things in mind… bear with me if I repeat myself.
1) God is creator of all.
2) God is owner of all.
3) God is infinite and righteous.
4) Man is finite and not righteous.
5) All men die.
6) All men are condemned by God already. (I think we should limit the discussion to personal rather than original sin OK? I can’t debate every point you can bring up. I gotta sleep sometime.)
So if God is creator and owner of everything, God can do with his creation as he pleases. Also as creator then what he defines as good, is good. If he has created us “in his image”, then we naturally would have a concept of good and evil.
Also as finite and imperfect beings, our knowledge and judgment are impaired both by our inherent evil, and our limited knowledge. It would be hard to make an accurate judgment about the “questionable” actions of God based upon our limited perspective. If the annihilation of people by God is so bad, then why not complain about death also? Don’t we all die? Do you not expect that you will die also? Hey! Be an equal opportunity complainer…
One other thing I would point out as an aside. I would remind you that the infanticide of the Egyptian first born sons was in the context of God pointing out that all of Egypt’s gods were in fact, powerless in the face of the one true god. The plagues were all directed at a particular god in Egypt. The blood in the Nile? The river God was powerless to stop it. The locusts and frogs? Same thing. As the pharaoh was considered a god in Egypt, God had something pertinent to say about that too. Pharaoh’s son was no different than anyone else’ son.
It’s been nice debating with you guys today, and you brought up some good points. I’d like to stay up and see your responses, but I’m for bed. Catch y’all tomorrow.
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MIM,
…Also as creator then what he defines as good, is good. If he has created us “in his image”, then we naturally would have a concept of good and evil.
But this also begs the question; why would God create beings that are averse to His definition of good?
You can put it down to our “limited perspective” of God’s plan, or to sin having corrupted our views, or our free will to disagree. But why should our aversions be patronised as “fallible human understanding” just so God can be exhonerated? Why did He imbue us with a sense of fairness that we’re required to repress, or switch off, when contemplating, and only when contemplating, His actions?
I’m not railing against God here, by the way, I’m just pointing out that there are other possible reasons for why we find biblical genocide a “thorny issue”. For example, morality does not come from the God of the bible.
If the annihilation of people by God is so bad, then why not complain about death also?
Death isn’t immoral. Maybe you disagree but, as you say, let’s steer clear of original sin for the time being.
I would remind you that the infanticide of the Egyptian first born sons was in the context of…
Yes, there was a reason. Yes, it had a purpose and yes, the consequences of the action were a great benefit to God’s chosen. But you still can’t have non-infanticide infanticide. It was still an act of large-scale infanticide, therefore it remains that large-scale infanticide is not always wrong.
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MIM at #33:
Thanks for the lengthy response, and I’ll know to not look for a reply before tomorrow.
I realize you don’t see a problem with good being whatever God says, but it sounds to me that what you’ve described is essentially a might-makes-right argument.
God can do whatever he pleases — we want to believe God is always good — so whatever God pleases to do, we must call that good.
To me the problem with that isn’t portrayals of God ordering genocide and the like. (Although some of those are indeed troubling.) It’s that “good” in that view is not objective, unchanging principle, it’s the whim and will of an omnipotent being.
The God of the Bible makes choices, deliberates over courses of action, renders judgment, grants mercy and so forth, and not always consistently. The book of Job shows a God who is cavalier enough about his people that he’s willing to make a bet with Satan about how much crap Job can take before losing his faith. The book of Exodus, in a sharp contrast to Job, shows a god who is faithful and merciful and patient with his stiff-necked people.
It is hard to see how a Christian can argue that the Bible’s God is the source of absolute moral truth.
But as I noted, the alternative is to say that God is always good based on some other measure of good. If we do that, however, then God is not the source of moral truth, but just another being to measured against it.
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Flaming Icarus –Part of my issue with the Christian take on morality is the dance around things like genocide or infanticide.
Roger — One thing to keep in mind is the fact that terms like “genocide” and “infanticide” already presuppose evil intent and culpability. But, not all homicides are murder.
While it is true that God ordered the killing of an entire race, we must not automatically assume that his killing an entire race is genocide. Theoretically, it may have been genocide or it might not have been genocide. To judge God’s killing of an entire race of people as genocide, we must know for a fact that God was acting with malicious aforethought.
If I understand MIM, his point is NOT to suggest that genocide is acceptable if God does it, but rather, in the case of God’s killing a race of people, it isn’t genocide. He isn’t saying God gets to do evil because he is God. He isn’t saying God gets to commit genocide because he is God. I believe the point is that if God kills off a race of people, it isn’t in fact genocide when he does it. In order to convict God of genocide, we must prove that he did it with “malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification.”
MIM speaks to the second issue when he suggests that God is the creator of all. The right over life is the logical implication of creating life in the first place; if he didn’t create us we wouldn’t exist.
Secondly, by analogy, murder is a violation of God’s “author rights”, in which he has “the right to be identified as the author of the work and the right to object to any distortion or mutilation of the work which would be prejudicial to his or her honor or reputation.” (Wikipedia) MIM brings this out when he lists God as the “owner” of all things. When one man murder’s another man, he violates God’s exclusive right to protect his work from mutilation, distortion, or destruction. God, however, has the right to destroy his own work as anyone has the right over his own property to dispose of it any way he sees fit.
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Roger,
Thanks for the response. I believe the semantic issues are just part of the dance. Genocide requires no malicious intent. Genocide refers to “…acts committed with [the] intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious groups…”
No mal-intent required.
We can semanticise (I know semanticise is not a real word but it works!) God’s behaviour beyond the reach of any culpability. But that only serves to remove any act, or behaviour, from the realm of moral judgement and leaves only the circumstance of the act up for moral judgement.
For example, God wipes out a race and it’s good. Some dictator wipes out a race and it’s bad. So, wiping out a race can be good, or it can be bad. The difference is in the circumstances (and consequences) of the act, not the act itself. Which means that the morality, or immorality, of an act, is relative to the situation. Uh-oh, did I say relative? Um, yes.
God, however, has the right to destroy his own work as anyone has the right over his own property to dispose of it any way he sees fit.
Personally, I’d avoid making parallels between God’s sovereignty and human property ownership. I’m sure peoples’ sense of moral revulsion would hit the roof if I started throwing kittens through a garden mulcher.
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Hmm, that should be “a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,” not “groups”.
Mea culpa.
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Flaming — Personally, I’d avoid making parallels between God’s sovereignty and human property ownership. I’m sure peoples’ sense of moral revulsion would hit the roof if I started throwing kittens through a garden mulcher.
Roger — What would they say if you CREATED the kitten?
You see, the fallacy we make is to compare ourselves to the creator as if we could be like him: if we were just a little more powerful, a little bigger, a little smarter, etc. We aren’t his peer and we will never be his peer.
Flaming — We can semanticise (I know semanticise is not a real word but it works!) God’s behaviour beyond the reach of any culpability.
Roger — I’m not suggesting that God is beyond judgment. We judge the creator based on whether his creation was fitting, and whether it displays his righteous character or not.
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Roger: A cogent question was raised earlier, though. If we are created in God’s image, then our sense of what is right and wrong must derive from God, right?
So why does so much of what the Biblical God is portrayed as doing repel us? Even apologists who argue that God was right to wipe out a race of people, or to kill infants, or to flood the entire world, have to admit that those acts demand justification, because they are horrifying to our own sense of right and wrong.
Why would the ultimate Source of our moral sense behave in ways that contradict what we inherently know is right?
(My answer as a Deist is somewhat different than those that come from the Christian/atheist divide, but the question remans nevertheless.)
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#39: You see, the fallacy we make is to compare ourselves to the creator as if we could be like him…
That’s why I said I personally wouldn’t compare God’s sovereignty to human property ownership. If I did anything to a kitten it’s not a parallel to God doing something to His creation because, as you pointed out, I didn’t create the kitten.
The real question is: do the kittens think they’re getting a raw deal, and do you think it really matters what they think?
I’m not suggesting that God is beyond judgment. We judge the creator based on whether his creation was fitting, and whether it displays his righteous character or not.
But not by how He treats His creation?
I ask this because links in with that earlier query, which SteveG has reiterated in #40: why does so much of what the Biblical God is portrayed as doing repel us?
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Except Gods did not flood the entire world.
That did not happen.
Kinda silly to talk about whether or not that would make God a bad guy, since if he even existed he is already a liar. It’s obvious that it didn’t happen.
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