The Burger Kingization of Christianity
I was having lunch with a friend whose relationship with his wife is incredibly strained. I told him that his wife seems to have a fantasy that he will be dragged off into the woods by a bunch of idealized Pilgrim men, who will proceed to make him into the man she really wants. “That would be great,” he said. He really did mean it.
I think it’s a wish many men have, that a group of men will draw close and rescue us from ourselves. It’s what made John Eldredge’s Wild at Heart so successful, in part, because he appealed to wide swaths of men who have the sense that we have not received an induction into Christian manhood. We could catalog the causes in the failures of recent decades: rising divorce rates, the proportion of children born without a father in the home at 25 percent and rising, a generation of men reared by the fantastically self-obsessed Baby Boomers, a culture that elevates personal satisfaction over all other standards.
In the face of these trends the Church has proven largely impotent, such that the practice of faith has become marginalized and atomized. Churches have little authority to discipline members or their children. If you aren’t happy with your pastor’s tie color, let alone any discipline your session might try to mete out (assuming you’re in a church with that kind of conviction and mettle in the first place), there are any number of congregations happy to receive you with no questions asked. It is the Burger Kingization of Christianity: have it your way.
The consequence, too often, is every man for himself. I have another friend who was on the brink of divorce, who practically begged the elders and seeming leaders in his church for help, with barely a phone call in return. That church is planting churches. They’re thriving, at least according to whatever meaningless measures we apply to church growth. Our buildings and finances seem far stronger than our spines, than the bonds that are supposed to unite us one to another.
I’m blessed to be in a church with many strong and faithful men. My friend, the one with whom I had lunch, will have help if he’ll take it. He will have men who come alongside him, and his wife will have women do the same with her. This ought to be the measure, I think, of a church. Does it care for those in need, and discipline those in sin, all with a spirit of love? Is it a community of faith, or a clearinghouse for faith-based activities?
I don’t think we can afford much more of the latter. We have a great deal of work to do. Too many of our parents have failed us, and too many of us are failing our own children. There is so much work to do, and so little time, and it’s one of the reasons that I, at least, couldn’t care less about what some fool of a Democrat or Republican has to say about the state of the GNP, or our national greatness, or whatever other snake oil they’re peddling this week.
The real work, I think, begins in our churches, shoring up one another’s weaknesses, and giving our children the foundation many of us were denied. We need to show our sons how to be men, and our daughters how to be women, and for many of us that means figuring it out as we go. It certainly means so for me, and for many men I know. We are trying to learn how to be real men in a world that devalues and mocks the very notion of manhood, yet which cries out for it.
Nobody is going to drag my friend or me into the woods to make us into real men. We’re learning as we go. Hopefully our children will have an easier time on their paths. Hopefully they’ll have less repair work to do, and can take part in the true building — not of church buildings, but of communities — that desperately needs doing in a country that is increasingly rich in wealth, and increasingly impoverished in life and hope.



WORLD Magazine Library powered by Amazon
Term Life Insurance at Savings up to 75%!
Logos Bible Software for Bible Study
Learn it! Speak it! Live it!
Free Hardcover ESV Study Bible!
















back to top49 Comments to “The Burger Kingization of Christianity”
Tony,
Be the church to your friend.
Too often we look to government, churches, schools, whatever, when what we need–as you intimate–is strong community. Hillary, and the Africans that originated the proverb, were right, “It takes a village.”
If your friend’s marrigae is in trouble he cannot wait for the church or the culture to change. He needs you and he needs an old man. Not all the Baby Boomers are self-obsessed. Find one in your church who has a good, long marriage and connect this couple to them.
You are right about the church in many ways. If we just look at it as buildings and finances. The church is people; you are quite mistaken if you don’t see your friend’s crises as an opportunity for you and a few others to be the church.
(Read the quote Lynn posted on Whirld views).
Report comment to moderator
Tony – absolutely – I totally agree with you.
***
Adios – have you ever been in a place where you needed the church to be there for you? where your life changed in such a way that you needed their support and strength? I have. And as much as the people IN THE CHURCH told me there would be those IN MY CHURCH who would be there for us, it has not been true. From the top on down, as soon as our lives forced us out of the “church-mold,” we were left on our own. And it’s not just me … it’s so many more.
Tony’s church, if it is what he states it is, is rare.
***
“I’m blessed to be in a church with many strong and faithful men. My friend, the one with whom I had lunch, will have help if he’ll take it.”
Tony – will you still be there if his marriage ends? Will your church still be there if his marriage ends? Or are you only there for couples who stay together?
Report comment to moderator
I wonder if a divorce occurred in Tony’s church how the leadership/everyone else would handle the wife that was abandoned? How would this particular PCA allow itself to help a woman who could not support a family? Do you know, Tony?
Report comment to moderator
I go to a church that welcomes me without insisting I do anything more than come and worship with them. That is what I need right now. It is not my preference. My story is way too long to go into, but I just want to say that what your friend needs right now is not what everyone needs. I have been in very liberal churches and very fundamentalist churches. I have been in churches that ignore all sin except giving to the poor apparently and in those that rail against rock music. I have seen churches shame women for becoming pregnant in front of the whole congregation, while quietly letting the pastor off the hook for his 3rd adultery. I have attended a church that the pastor ended up being a pedaphile and another where the pastor made advances toward a woman he was counseling. That makes it pretty much impossible for me to have some elders or a pastor tell me what it means to be a good woman or my husband to be a good man. I will listen to what comes from the pulpit and then carefully examine the word. Actually this pastor wants that. At the same time, I have learned that most churches say they want you to do that and even bring truth forward, but if you do, you are usually drummed out sooner or later. I have been extremely active in church and so has my husband. This is very hard for both of us. As I say, my story is way too long for here and boring, no doubt, to boot. My only point is that the church is no doubt in much turmoil and trouble. We need lots of prayer for our boards, elders, pastors, and teachers etc. We need lots of prayer for ourselves. We need to avail ourselves of the scriptures which will tell us how to be good parents, good woman and good men. We need our minds renewed by the Word and Spirit. Yes, we need good teachers and mentors too and God does provide in some amazing ways there. I am very leery about church discipline and accountability groups, because of what I have experienced. Every cult has great accountability sooner or later and lots of discipline. Preach the truth; live the truth; love one another and you will find the Spirit growing each one. I know we don’t tickle ears from the pulpit or with one another also.
Please don’t tell me I just havn’t found the “right” church. I have never found a church that is perfect and never will. It is impossible, because people are not perfect and they are what makes the church. I have found what I need right now; the kind of church Tony is speaking against. Maybe their are lots of me out there?
Report comment to moderator
AME,
Believe me when I say I have experienced the worst organized religion has to offer. A church we attended used “discipline” like a rod of iron. And if Tony’s friend was attending and his marriage ended he would have been excommunicated with very few questions asked.
The church we attend now is quite different. It has been an incredible support group so to speak “from the top down” for many. While we are trying to divorceproof our church, we have a divorce recovery network.
When a kid in our church committed suicide the senior pastor–its a church of about 4000–was there before the coroner was gone. There was a pastor at their home for the first 72 hours. The children’s ministry director cared for the kids when the parents needed to be alone. There was enough relationship there to make this seem natural, not uncomfortable. I’m not sure how you ever get over something like that, but this couple have gone through the darkness and are once again very involved in minstries in the church and credit the whole body with helping them through so far.
But that being said, we are a large church. There are times when the whole church responds to a crisis and times when individuals in our itimate sphere are the best ministers. Our church doesn’t spereate the scared from the secular much, nor do we make a big difference between clergy and layity.
Report comment to moderator
#4 “welcomes me without insisting I do anything more than come and worship with them”
KI,
That’s not what I need right now – but I did wonder if you could expand a little on what you mean by “insist.”
One of the best churches I have been part of was the one we attended before my husband was ordained a pastor. If people chose to just come worship, so far as I know no one badgered them about being more active, and everyone who came was welcome, even the man with some mental problem who would occasionally stand up in the middle of a service and start talking.
But for people who wanted to become members, it was made clear during the “Inquirers” class that there were certain expectations for members. No coercion, but you would understand why an elder might contact you if you hadn’t come in a while, out of concern for your well-being. (Expectations were regular attendance, some level of giving financially, and participation in at least one program besides Sunday worship. And to make sure there were programs that had a place for people of various abilities, interests, and schedules, they attempted to have one “program” – which could be a regular activity or a once-a-year event – for every seven people in the church.)
I found it very difficult to continue participating in the ways I was used to when my first son was a toddler. My husband was gone pretty much all day, every day, between seminary and a part-time job and his internship at an inner-city church, so I felt like a single parent. I was working full-time myself to support the family and a part-time student (getting an MBA) which I hoped would help me get a job wherever we ended up moving to once he became a pastor. So our son spent quite a bit of time with good friends of the family who enjoyed watching him. But there were few church activities where he could participate with me, and I didn’t like to get a babysitter yet again.
The church did help in some ways, and probably would have helped more if I had been more comfortable asking for help.
The church we attend now seems to have a similar approach, though they are so large (at over 1000) that it’s hard for the pastors and leaders to get to know everyone. There are lots of opportunities to get involved if people want to, but people who don’t want to are welcomed as warmly as anyone and not pushed to do more. (I know someone from a very small church who complains that when she has visited our church she is ignored, but she doesn’t exactly try to be friendly either since she’s expecting to be ignored just because it’s so big.)
Report comment to moderator
Good things said above.
We’ve attended a number of churches as well, mostly 300 or so regulars, and while we like the intimacy, sometimes congregations that small can’t mount up all the resources a larger church like Adios’ can. And I think some people are afraid to exercise leadership/discipline because they’re afraid of potential lawsuits.
A church is a place for sinners bungling along our faith walk together. The good Samaritan was not out looking for people to help when he stumbled over the beaten man on the side of the road. If God puts someone in our paths, we need to respond to then, listening as close to the Holy Spirit as we can, just as Adios indicated.
God never allows us to be tempted beyond what we can endure, and he always provides a way out. When the church we’ve attended has not been able to meet a specific need in our lives, God always has provided another brother or sister, parachurch ministry or book to help. I’ve walked through enough valleys of shadows to know God always places someone along the way to help. SomeONE, not necessarily a large group.
Report comment to moderator
Sorry, I probably went too much out on a tangent. I guess I have seen too many people hurt by churches. I meant by “insisting” that there is a place for churches to allow people to just sit, listen, learn and “be entertained”. It isn’t all churches should do, but it is one level or type of ministry. Yes, I think if one wants to become a member, they should know what the church believes and it’s expectations of them. Not everyone should be forced to be a member, though, IMO.
God has always provided my family with someone to help us when we severely needed it. We have had major crisises. That has come sometimes from a church, but more often from individuals, He has put in our lives. We look to be that for others also.
I do pray for good mentors for my sons-in-law. I do want good, Christian men who will model what it means to be the same. I don’t think this will always come out of their churches, but often in their neighborhoods, places of work etc. Usually, people look to several different individuals to provide this. Some have parents who modelled well for them. Unfortunately, many don’t. I see the need, Tony is speaking of. I was more reacting to the church discipline aspect.
Report comment to moderator
3–
I wonder if this church with an otherwise fairly open approach to communion would suddenly and without any explanation of what this means, say something like, “You can come here, but don’t take communion until WE figure out what is going on with you?!”
Would it be obvious to everyone in the congregation that I was all of a sudden now not allowed to take communion as we all file up front each Sunday?
The answer is, yes, they would say that, and yes, it would be entirely obvious to everyone what was happening.
Report comment to moderator
Tony, I really find your opening sentence demeaning. Talk about your own marriage, not that of others.
Report comment to moderator
Adios and AME, I think we are in agreement that the church is in large part its people, and that therefore we have an obligation to act accordingly toward the needs of others. AME, he is my friend, and yes I will be there for him.
That, KI, is perhaps where we might disagree. Your personal story and current needs notwithstanding, I think our membership in the church of believers (not ecclesiastical bodies) places certain obligations on us at all times.
Pauline, I think you offer a helpful distinction between church attenders and church members.
Report comment to moderator
Tony & KI-
Our church urges every believer to be involved in some way, but also recognizes that there are times when a person, for whatever personal reason, may need to take it easy for a while.
As one who was in that position myself, I appreciated the occasional encouragement from a particularly concerned friend (who also happens to be our pastor’s wife) to make sure I didn’t pull away too much from church activities.
Report comment to moderator
My opinion on churches.
God bless ‘em. It must be wonderful to be able to enjoy fellowship with other Christians.
My problem with churches stems from the fact that I can’t find any that teach any thing other than what I consider to be heresy, in subjects relating to echatology. To me, this is one of the most important issues that the Bible deals with.
Of course most churches steer clear of even discussing the topic, and the ones that do, IMO, have it wrong, to the point of being dangerous.
(maybe it shouldn’t be a “deal-breaker, but it is)
As far as everyday life-problems, I think it’s kind of sad that a man would have to rely on the advice of someone officially “schooled” in some particular doctrine, to make important decisions.
I’ve found that the official doctrines of many (maybe all) denominations tend to either add to, or take away from what the Bible suggests we do.
The best advice is to learn scripture, with reverence for the LORD. That is how you become wise.
Why trust the judgment of someone who did what you should have, in regard to studying.
Learn it yourself, and you might find that what you get out of it yourself, is more meaningful than what you were told about it.
Report comment to moderator
13-thank you on everyday problems
When it comes to marriage, it doesn’t matter how talented of a writer you are; why don’t you go back to political science? It only matters what you do.
When it comes to looking up to someone for their marriage/family life, find someone you can look up to locally, someone that you really know!! Remember Frank Schaeffer–Crazy for God?
Report comment to moderator
Mr. Meaner,
I’m not sure how to reconcile your individual stance on eschatology with the charge of heresy, since the latter is a departure from church orthodoxy. I suppose you could nail them with being unbiblical, but they probably get to call you the heretic.
I think you are right that we should each endeavor to learn what the Bible teaches, but I think there’s room for instruction and mentoring, as the epistles make abundantly clear.
Report comment to moderator
From Tony’s post: “This ought to be the measure, I think, of a church. Does it care for those in need, and discipline those in sin, all with a spirit of love?”
This is a good statement. I am not disagreeing with Tony or anyone above in this comment.
But for the sake of responding with other thoughts of my own, as a pastor, I know first hand that a church can care deeply and actively for those in need and still get harshly measured by people with their own selective measuring standards. A church can sincerely discipline those in sin and then get excoriated for it with stories spun in the worst way for the church leaders who tried to help. A church can exude a genuine spirit of love only to have it taken wrong by the very ones they tried to love. You all know what I mean because this dynamic applies far beyond the church.
Still, I have seen too many Christian people talk various churches down in order, perhaps, to feel righteous for having such high standards of love and concern for a church–standards no church can live up to all the time.
I have seen ministers devote themselves to try never to miss a hospital visit opportunity and after some fifty visits, they miss one and never hear the end of it. Some wolves are ever ready to pounce with criticism over how the man of God should do a better job of caring for the people. This often drives good men out of the ministry.
I just know that the harshest critics are almost always the ones who do the least in authentic ministry or are the least supportive of those who do the work. Those who do most of the work know all too well how it feels to be criticized unfairly.
So, don’t love your ideal of the church. Love your actual church! And cut it some slack once in a while when it actually drops the ball. The game is not over. Pick up the dropped ball and run with it yourself. Or block for the guy who is carrying it.
Just wanted to get that on the table.
Report comment to moderator
Oh, there is no doubt that I would be, and am, labeled heretic.
I have to be content with knowing that my interpretation Biblical account of the end of this age is completely consistant with scripture.
I haven’t been able to find anyone who can defend most eschatological (or lack thereof) beliefs (that I claim to be heresy) woithout contradicting other scripture.
I’m open to being convinced otherwise..but .
( On judgment day..if you believe in one)I would still prefer to be judged on beliefs derived from my own deliberations, rather than having to explain how (whichever) doctrine, as dictated by humans, guided my actions in life.
If I’m wrong, at least I cared enough about the Word to want to know what God instructs.
I agree about assistance in instruction regarding Biblivcal matters.
The best assistance is showing someone how they can understand God’s Word without any assistance from those who have no more access to learning material than any of us.
Sadly, the easiest way to make sense of alot of the mistaught (IMO) aspects of doctrine, is to scrap a big portion of that doctrine.
There are undeniable, universal, Christian truths. There are also a lot of added, or deleted (depending on the denopmination) details that are passed on as gospel. This turns people who depend on those in the clergy to get it right, away.
Christianity isn’t a religion. It is a reality.
My experience tells me that in many cases, religion diminishes the intent of Christianity.
Not always..I’m sure.
Report comment to moderator
Joel Mark,
Thanks for the reminder, especially that those who do the least complain the most. I have found that quite true.
Report comment to moderator
Mr. Meaner,
Did I miss something? On judgement day are we not judged by what we have done and our reliance on the the blood of Christ?
How can eschatology be heretical?
Report comment to moderator
“Did I miss something? On judgement day are we not judged by what we have done and our reliance on the the blood of Christ?”
Which judgment day?
The one on in Rev. 19:4-6, or the one in 19: 11-15?
That’s what I’m talking about.
If your not up to speed on what’s happening (around us as we type) You’re not going to realize that the one you want to make is the first one. Things are going to happen that will require decisions on your part that will make that choice for you. It’s important to know what to do (more importantly..what NOT to do) during those times. Doing the wrong thing would be the ultimate heresy
No preacher can save you.
Belief in Jesus will give you eternal life.
Belief, alone will not make you a priest for 1000 years.
The decisions you make at the end of this age will decide whether you are “naked” or whether you wear white linen, and reign with Christ.
Many will be discovered naked..playing the whore with another “god”. They are the ones who still face the possiblity of the Second death
My guess is that these are the same ones who will say to him, in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?…And then I will profess to them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that worh iniquity.”
That pretty well sums it up.
Lemme put it another way that will probably win me even less friends:
It is the incorrect order of events yet to unfold, that is taught by the vast majority of most treachers, that is heretic, and very dangerous.
Most assume that the church is absent during these events. When they’re not “raptured” they’re not going to be prepared for the worst part of what will happen. And my guess is..they will be easy prey.
Report comment to moderator
Joel Mark,
Much-needed words. I’m often extremely critical, and it’s only recently that I’ve begun to really empathize with pastors and elders. There really is no getting it right in the eyes of all men — something I’m learning as a writer as well. The difference is that when someone doesn’t like what I write, they stop reading (usually), and I don’t hear from them again (usually). When someone doesn’t like what you preach, or that you danced at a wedding reception, or that your unpleated pants bespeak an overconcern with fashion, they (mostly) stick around your church and complain to anyone who will listen.
Mr. Meaner,
I’m with you on the importance of proper biblical exegesis, but I have two thoughts for you to ponder (I’m in the midst of pondering them as well). The first is that, in the history of doctrine, a great deal of heresy has sprung from gnosticism, which is fueled in part by the notion that a few select people have special insight into the ways of God. I understand that your point of view is that it’s all right there in plain Hebrew and Greek, but do you ever worry that perhaps your point of view has become a point of pride? Not an accusation, because I don’t know you, but a question, from someone who has held (and still holds) many points of pride in his own self-image bucket.
The other thought is that it seems clear that the Lord has made his word discernable to his sheep, and confusing to the goats. Doesn’t it seem odd, therefore, that very few self-professing Christians really get those sections of the Bible you’re talking about? Are you thinking that they (I should probably put myself in there with them; eschatology has always confused me) are all really goats in sheep’s clothing? Again, not an accusation, I’m just curious.
Report comment to moderator
Tony, I am not very clear in my writing apparently, as I don’t see myself saying we have no obligation to other believers. I will go further in saying we have an obligation to believer or unbeliever as God puts them in our paths and to the extent He desires. I also believe in anthority in a church and the obligation of everyone to submit to that authority unless one see gross error.
I will also agree with Joel Mark, that it is usually those who do the least that complain the most.
I do believe though, that there are times to allow a person to just listen, watch, learn and worship in a church without having to “be involved”. Most people want to be involved. Some will find it impossible. I think here of people who are geniunely paranoid, for example. For them to be able to go out and worship with others may be all they are able to do.
I believe God does call us to assemble together. He does call us to love one another, exhort one another etc. I don’t believe that can only be done in a formal church setting. I do not advocate anyone to not be in a church. I think one is losing out by not being in one. We are in a country where that is usually possible without a lot of effort. I especially don’t believe mentoring of other believers is in any way confined to a formal church, although, it certainly should be being done in one.
Report comment to moderator
“do you ever worry that perhaps your point of view has become a point of pride? Not an accusation, because I don’t know you, but a question, from someone who has held (and still holds) many points of pride in his own self-image bucket.”
All I can do it put my opinion out there, and see what response it gets. I’m still waiting for someone to change my mind on that subject.
I hope that I am wrong about a couple of things. But, until those things can be disproven by scripture, I still have to believe it as I read it.
I like to think that I give everyone ample opportunity to challenge any notion I put forth.
I actually wish some would. Goading with controversial comments doesn’t seem to work. (except in this case)
I think we had one rapture thread back in Nov.
If I remember correctly, as soon as I gave my opinion, the thread died. (with a couple of exceptions, like Chas, etc)
It just seems that no one wants to really discuss it.
Report comment to moderator
KI,
I think I misread what you intended earlier, and agree with what you say in 22. I’ve certainly been in that place myself, where I needed to simply sit and be in the body, and had no strength to do more.
Report comment to moderator
Mr. Meaner,
I’m afraid I’m one of those people who is pitifully uneducated in this area. I’m only up to the 5th century or so in Christian doctrine. At this rate, I should be current in another couple of years!
Anything I ought to be reading on this particular topic?
Report comment to moderator
“Doesn’t it seem odd, therefore, that very few self-professing Christians really get those sections of the Bible you’re talking about? Are you thinking that they (I should probably put myself in there with them; eschatology has always confused me) are all really goats in sheep’s clothing?”
Actually, I tend to believe that they are confused sheep that should stop listening to the goats.
Not understanding Rev. isn’t going to send anyone to hell. But it may effect how you spend those next thousand years, upon his return.
Doesn’t mean they are “hell-bound”.
It may mean that they will not reign with Christ.
“many are called, but few are chosen”
JMHO
Report comment to moderator
Mr Meaner,
I am not a pretribulationist. And I think there is quite a danger in that teaching. But I do not think those who teach it are heretics. I am well versed on the first and second resurrections. Unfortunately, I learned this doctrine from one of the most vile preachers I think Christianity has produced. And I’m not saying his teachings were without merit–he plagerized them from some good men–but he wholly lacked love, joy, peace, patience, you get the picture. I’d say for him the millstone around the neck is looking pretty good. As you intimated, there will be folks with letter-perfect doctrine gnashing their teeth on judgement day.
When we read prophecy, the application is always holiness of life to the glory of God. That is lived in loving relationship to the living God, not in clinging to doctrine.
Report comment to moderator
I’ve got to head to work. But I can give you a link to a pastor whose eschatological views are fairly close to mine.
http://www.shepherdschapel.com/
I don’t agree with some things this fellow teaches, but IMO, he has the end-time scenerio down pretty close to the way I see it.
You can also view his 24 hr. satellite feed for free.
Or, listen to the previous week’s live broadcasts..also free.
Report comment to moderator
MR. MEANER,
I learned in seminary the Biblical evidence for the posttrib position and believe it is well supported. I agree that there will be many Christians caught off guard when the rapture does not occur before the great tribulation. I believe that could lead to the apostasy within the church that occurs during the tribulation – many will turn away from the church because pretrib teachings were wrong. My professor said he would be very happy if the last trumpet blew early but it’s not what he believes the Bible says will happen.
Report comment to moderator
It isn’t really about politics, as you said, Tony, or the church, or things that haven’t happened yet.
It is about your integrity at home.
Report comment to moderator
MR_MEANER,
I would encourage you to find a church that is post-trib – not all are pre-trib and most don’t even talk about it unfortunately. You don’t even necessarily have to become an official member of the church you go to because you are already a spiritual member if you are in Christ. But – “Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” – Heb 10:25. Don’t give up on the fellowship of the church just because some like to read the Left Behind series.
Report comment to moderator
What a great article Tony. I agree whole-heartedly. It can be hard to step in and help married friends who are having trouble, but it’s the loving thing to do. I’ve been in a few churches where adultery was openly and unrepentantly practised. We begged the leadership to discipline the offenders, but they were afraid to for fear of offending and losing tithes.
Praise God we now have a fellowship with an eclectic group of believers that care about God, His Word, and each other. Us wives encourage each other to love our husbands, and the guys encourage each other to be better husbands, fathers and providers too. It’s amazing to see how the Holy Spirit teaches us to love each other more even though we are so different culturally and socio-economically. Families are strengthened when they are in a strtong community of believers who care enough to help, both practically, and with admonishment when necessary.
Report comment to moderator
Mr-Meaner, I’m sorry you’ve only found pre-tribbers to fellowship with so far. We have the same problem. But we remain in this local church, and hope that if the tribulation happens in our lifetimes, we can be a voice of truth, reason and encouragement to the pre-tribbers around us so they won’t lose their faith when the time of testing comes. I hope you can find some post tribbers to fellowship with, but in the meantime, don’t discard local believers who just happen to have it wrong on this one thing.
Report comment to moderator
All wonderful comments.
I may take another look around, and see if I can find a post-trib church.
I’d love to be able to go to church, but I just can’t pay tithes to a ministry that is teaching what I feel to be a dangerous message.
As far as engaging someone on that subject, I try to “feel people out”, usually, before bringing it up. Some of those who already have an opinion on it, have made up their minds. You have to be careful, in that situation.
Then you have the problem of people (whether Christian or not) who just couldn’t care less about that kind of thing
It’s hard to know how to best reach people.
It’s even harder to discern who doesn’t want to be “reached”.
Report comment to moderator
32-
“Step in and help married friends who are having trouble.” Well, first you have to be able to listen to both partners for long enough to determine if one is being abused, or if one has been “put away”–if one is living in unfaithfulness as a pattern, and there is no love in the relationship, and the man/woman (?) is controlling, manipulating, and abusive, then the loving thing might NOT be to “help” them stay together. How does Tony’s church handle adultery?
Report comment to moderator
REG
That’s one of those little things that bother me about some denominations.
No one should be forced to be a second-class citizen, just because their spouse turned out to be a cheater/liar/abuser.
I can’t speak for any one other than myself, but I know what I would do if I had a spouse that cheated. There wouldn’t be any possibility of staying together.
God divorced Israel when they cheated on him.
Jer. 3:8
Report comment to moderator
And I can say that as one who has never been divorced.
Report comment to moderator
Meaner,
And no one should be “forced” to stay as a second-class citizen in a marriage that is unhealthy (not to mention the need for STD testing and how unhealthy is that??)simply because the “helping” church community decided that divorce was not in order. How often are the attitudes like one pastor (gatekeeper of doctrinal purity in the PCA–where is the real purity?)from the PCA who said to me, “Don’t tell anyone in the church what is going on with you, getting divorced, don’t talk about your life to anyone here. We didn’t have a policy in place for dealing with a situation like this, we simply don’t know what to do.” OR how about this otherwise exceptionally brave man, a layMAN in another PCA “I don’t know what is going on with you, and I don’t want to know (I just want to feel the thrill of letting you know that I am praying for you!)
Where is Tony? Please enlighten us on your particular PCA, is it not Heartland?
From your article:
“My friend, the one with whom I had lunch, will have help if he’ll take it. He will have men who come alongside him, and his wife will have women do the same with her. This ought to be the measure, I think, of a church. Does it care for those in need, and discipline those in sin, all with a spirit of love? Is it a community of faith, or a clearinghouse for faith-based activities? ”
What kind of help specifically, AND how much input does the woman actually get with the real leadership? Does she get to speak at all? Do they listen? Or do only the men’s words matter? Or is she relegated to the women’s section, knitting, homeschooling, potlucks, lots of chummy friends and homey activities, etc.
Does the leadership look at the wife, and tell her that if she would submit, then he would stop being unfaithful? These attitudes are not uncommon, but are dead wrong.
Report comment to moderator
38-
Lots of chummy women friends who don’t know what she is going through and won’t hesitate to tell her how to feel in her distressed marriage, who won’t hesitate to tell her how to submit to her particular husband based on their own experiences, which are totally different from hers, who won’t hesitate to authoritatively tell her about her own husband based on their own husband, or on their sister’s husband, etc. Do these women have any listening skills, or is the depressed (due to husband’s adultery) wife MORE depressed after being with her Job friends? Let’s hear from the wives.
Report comment to moderator
Reg,
Since you mention my church, I’ll tell you that they handle these matters in a biblical manner, loving and supporting the wounded, holding each partner accountable for sin, and always working toward reconciliation while protecting the wife. They have never, to my knowledge, told a spouse that he/she must stay in a marriage where the other spouse has been unfaithful, but their first goal is always restoration of the marriage.
Report comment to moderator
I do have a question about members “being involved” in the church. I believe that all members should be using their spiritual gifts to build up the body, but must that always be in an “official ministry” of the church?
Here’s my own current situation: I stopped teaching Sunday school a couple years ago to be ready to take in foster kids, and had kids for several weeks last year. It looks like I may not have future foster kids (I’m looking at renting out the bedroom instead), so technically I could go back to teaching Sunday school. But, though I’ve taught a good part of my adult life (since 13) and even written a book about it, I don’t particularly want to teach right now. I’m not interested in being on the “worship team” and don’t have the superb gifts of cooking and decoration that half the women of my church have, so I leave them to work on church dinners.
Technically every adult member of my church is supposed to take turns in the nursery, but I’ve begged off for several reasons, the biggest ones being: (1) I don’t believe in a church having a nursery, and if I ever have children of nursery age, they’ll be with me in the service and (2) I work from my home and don’t see people much, and I need to be part of the public worship of God.
I do attend prayer meeting, and only a small group of us does, so I sort of consider myself as part of the church’s “prayer team.” In addition, I help out sporadically, doing things like helping make cards for someone who’s sick when the women get together to make cards, helping two or three days when the church has VBS, etc. But mostly I see my “ministry” as being less official. One of my spiritual gifts is encouragement, for instance, and I don’t see that as a “public” gift, but as a private one–sending cards or e-mails to hurting people, hugging and listening, encouraging the children and young people as they find their own niche, etc.
Anyone have any thoughts about when “ministry” came to mean “an official position” like Sunday school teacher or choir member, and whether it’s valid to say not all members will have such positions–and not all members need to have such positions to be active parts of the body?
Report comment to moderator
“One of my spiritual gifts is encouragement, for instance, and I don’t see that as a “public” gift, but as a private one–sending cards or e-mails to hurting people, hugging and listening, encouraging the children and young people as they find their own niche, etc.”
Is this a gift or something that God expects of his children?
Report comment to moderator
Reg, it’s both, as is true of nearly all the spiritual gifts.
Report comment to moderator
It might involve listening and not having the answers.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl – I believe that the gift you are using is indeed a ministry & should be recognized as such. And I think your pastor should know that you are doing that, so he knows you are involved, & also because there may be times he could let you know of someone you may not be aware of who needs a word or note of encouragement.
About church nurseries. I semi-agree with you.
I kept my babies & toddlers with me. But I was blessed with pretty quite & good-natured babies. Sometimes a baby gets in a loud crying jag cuz they’re hungry or over-tired or whatnot, at which time a nursery is a blessing. Our nursery has a speaker which “pipes in” the sermon.
(I do not in the least mind “baby babbling” noises, though some parents get nervous when their little one is making noises.)
Report comment to moderator
Karen O.,
Churches used to have “cry rooms” for just that reason. (A few still do.)
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl – I’d never heard of that, but it’s a good idea. Do they have rocking chairs & changing tables, too?
(I’ll be copying this to the other thread that this discussion is on, so you can answer me there, if you choose.)
Report comment to moderator
2–AME
It makes me mad when I see words that don’t match reality.
“Tony – will you still be there if his marriage ends? Will your church still be there if his marriage ends? Or are you only there for couples who stay together?”
Tony says “Adios and AME, I think we are in agreement that the church is in large part its people, and that therefore we have an obligation to act accordingly toward the needs of others. AME, he is my friend, and yes I will be there for him.”
It is one thing for Tony to sit at a computer and write words about how he imagines things to be/about what HE would do.
Ame wants to know about Tony’s church.
Reality is altogether different.
I went to Tony’s church. My marriage came apart. I can tell you that in this particular church they have no idea how to handle a legitimate divorce. I was not welcome. And as long as that is the case, they will not LEARN how to “be there for those” whose marriages fall apart. You have to learn some things by doing them. And from what I hear in that church, I dare say, it probably has not been done. The sad reality is that churches create the culture they want and then nurture the ones they want to keep and starve the ones they don’t want.
I was not the only one. Close to the same time period, in the same church, another woman, who chose to divorce her husband for his adultery was told to leave the church so that they would not have to excommunicate her. You see, some men place so great an emphasis on words, so that if the adulterer gets up in church and “repents to the church in words” (but the wife doesn’t know if it is yet real–and ONLY she knows what has gone on for years) that these men decide FOR the wife if she may divorce her adulterous husband!! What we don’t seem to understand here is the NATURE of adultery/lying. It doesn’t just go away with a simple apology. It is not like discovering that you accidentally stepped on your spouses toes. Adultery and the lying that goes with that lifestyle runs deep. If it does change, it is a long process not to be ignored, like, “Oh, he apologized, thank God! It is all over with now, we can go back sports and recreation.”
Report comment to moderator
I’m with Night Train on his conclusion that Celebrities are the only ones that Christians cannot accuse of being hypocritical. And to be a Christian Celebrity is the best of all!
Report comment to moderator