The hopeful monster
Even though evolution is Fact and Proven and True, evolutionary scientists somehow keep wanting to come up with a new idea to prove it, even resurrecting old ideas that have already been discredited, scientists like Olivia Judson, writing for the Times. She writes about The Hopeful Monster Theory.
Anyone familiar with the problems of evolution should know the phrase “hopeful monster,” coined in the 1930s as a way to explain how evolution might happen instantly, rather than gradually. The idea here is that for most complicated genetic changes to occur in a creature, the creature needs to have billions of mutations, all occuring in his favor. What ends up happening is that evolution produces lots of hopeless monsters and only a few hopeful ones that go on to live and reproduce. The problem here is that we’ve never found the billions and billions of fossils in the ground that would show these billions of hopeful and hopeless monsters. This is one of my favorite arguments against evolution.
Here’s how it works: to get from, oh, a fish to a mammal – say a catfish to a cat – we need billions of changes over many generations. I mean, so many changes that one out of a million might be good mutations, rather than bad. All those mutations and changes over eons and ages should produce quite a lot of missing links, and that’s just for one type of fish evolving into a single other type of mammal. So when the Omniscient Narrator on the Discovery Channel says, “We may have found the missing link,” he’s lying to you. He’s really looking for millions and billions of missing links between every known creature and every other one. And we haven’t found any. Any. At all. Oh, we found old fishes with flippers that looked like fingers, and old birds with scaly skin like dinosaurs, but science always eventually determines that these creatures belong to this or that species and aren’t, in fact, linking anything to anything.




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This is great. I get to post the first comment on what I predict – will be the week’s most active post. Courageously put out there Harrison.
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Norm P.
The most active post? It could be a close call between this post or Andree Seu’s piece “A Time to Speak”… but I think this one’ll win out.
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>>>Oh, we found old fishes with flippers that looked like fingers, and old birds with scaly skin like dinosaurs, but science always eventually determines that these creatures belong to this or that species and aren’t, in fact, linking anything to anything.<<<
Examples, please?
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Harrison, you apparently didn’t read the article past the headline, or if you did, didn’t really understand it.
It is most emphatically NOT about how “billions of mutations” can happen at once. It’s about how a single gene mutation can in some cases produce a fairly significant change in morphology. (The form of an organism.)
The reason the idea is coming back (and Judson is careful to note that most scientists don’t use the term; she as a science writer is free to do so) is that the new science of genetics is revealing information that scientists in the 1930s didn’t have available. As she writes:
The reason for the comeback is accumulating evidence that, in nature, some of the big changes in morphology that we see appear to be underpinned by changes to single genes. For example, one of the big differences between insects and their close relations, the crustaceans, is that insects usually have six legs (some butterflies have only four) whereas crustaceans are typically leggier, sometimes having more than twenty (lucky they don’t have to buy shoes). The difference seems to be due to a mutation in a gene known as Ultrabithorax. In fruit flies, this gene represses leg growth: in the parts of the embryo where the gene is turned on, you don’t grow legs. In crustaceans, the gene doesn’t repress leg growth. A series of elaborate experiments involving man-made gene products that are part-insect and part-crustacean has shown that the insect version of Ultrabithorax has acquired the ability to repress legs.
Finally, it would be nice if people who want to uphold Biblical Creationism would come up some evidence for Biblical Creationism rather than just trying to poke holes in evolutionary theory. Those efforts are almost always as misinformed as this one here.
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GALADRIEL:
http://www.dinosaur-world.com/feathered_dinosaurs/archaeopteryx_lithographica.htm
AND
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/tran-nf.html
—————
STEVEG,
In rhetoric, destroying the evidence of the opponent is a fine way to win an argument
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In rhetoric, destroying the evidence of the opponent is a fine way to win an argument
If you were actually doing that, sure.
But what you’re doing is snickering over “oh they’re bringing back this old idea that was discredited long ago” and not noticing that the reason it’s being talked about again is that a new set of discoveries has yielded significant new information.
That is not so much “destroying evidence of the opponent” as making your side look uninformed. Which is a great way to lose credibility.
But by all means, carry on.
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Hi Harrison
You sure are proud of being ignorant.
I’d like to invite you somewhere. I’ll sure invite those folks here. What fun! Smear the…. Well how about ‘educate the willfully ignorant’.
On a less snarkier note… it should be noted that the discovery of material inheritance utterly destroyed Goldschmidt’s hypotheses. GG Simpson reviewed some of Goldschmidt’s claims w.r.t. horse evolution in the classic ‘Tempo and Mode of Evolution’ and shows that his idea of determined or directed evolution to be inconsistent with the fossil record. Again, this was his pattern. The process was soon proven untenable by the discovery of chromosomes. There was no ‘place’ that genetic material might be ’stored’ for future speciation or radiation events.
Goldschmidt’s view does not support the blinkered dinosaurs-in-the-garden-of-eden and eight-people-and-a-boatload-of-animals idiocy either. i presume from the tone of your post and your previous dribbling attempts to formulate a coherent idea about biology that these views are likely representative of your own, which are (prove me wrong) religious views and completely ignorant of any and all pertinent scientific knowledge.
Go look up Zeno’s Paradox, then perhaps we can have a discussion about scale and ’sudden’ or ‘gradual’.
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Oh, we found old fishes with flippers that looked like fingers, and old birds with scaly skin like dinosaurs, but science always eventually determines that these creatures belong to this or that species and aren’t, in fact, linking anything to anything.
You misunderstand the nature of transition. Every creature that ever existed belongs to some species or other. Human beings categorize thing and any individual organism can be placed in a phylum, genus, species.
But at the same time, every organism that exists is a transitional form because life is always undergoing changes. You demand to see a transition D between species C and species E. But what you don’t grasp is that species C is already a transition between B and E. If eventually another species were determined to be species D, you’d demand to see the transitions between C and D and D and E.
A million years from now, there may well be a new species of mankind and today’s homo sapiens will be seen as the transitional form between the higher apes and that future-man.
If you could take a snapshot of life on earth at any specific point, you’d see existing ecosystems populated by organisms that thrive in those ecosystems, just as you see now. But if you could compare two such snapshots 100 million years apart, you’d see very different ecosystems and very different organisms … because life is always in transition.
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No one is destroying evidence. Evidence is the one thing that creationists and materialists all agree on. We only disagree on the interpretation of the evidence and the faith based systems that derive from that interpretation.
The most frustrating thing for evolutionists is the lack of a smoking gun. And so they must fend off pesky unbelievers whom they regard as Neanderthal dolts. There are no mutant life forms walking around, with partial organs and limbs becoming something grander. There are none (indisputably) in the fossil record either.
Pointing out a lack of evidence for someone’s belief system is not destroying evidence. It is simply being honest and helpful. Rather than receiving truth gladly, as any scientist should, evolutionists get defensive and abusive. Calling unbelievers stupid is pretty much all they’ve got to try and win the argument.
A gene that acts like a switch that turns on an elaborate mechanism to make a leg or not make a leg, means that the mechanism for making the leg is already present. This does not explain how pond scum evolved a mechanism for creating legs. After you wade through the mountains of literature written on the subject, it all boils down to the assertion, “Since we have legs, therefore they evolved”. That isn’t much to stand on.
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Galadriel asked: Examples, please?
Outkast says: Harrison’s point exactly. There are no (nada, zero) examples of transitional creatures.
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#8 …every organism that exists is a transitional form because life is always undergoing changes.
Your argument s goes like this: “Every organism is transitional, because it is”.
You organize fossils along a morphological continuum and then declare that a continuum exists. You declare that each fossil is merely a snapshot in time along a grand scale.
Well, that’s fine, but you haven’t proven anything. You’ve merely made an assertion. People who point this out are simply stating the obvious.
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OK, I’m going to propose we do something totally and uncharacteristically scientific here. Instead of, ahem, devolving into a discussion about the relative merits of Intelligent Design, how about we actually get some posts on the actual topic of “The Hopeful Monster”?
Why don’t some of you scientists tell what you believe and why? “Creationists are stupid” is boorish, boring, and leaves the real subject unaddressed.
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Xion, another testament to your wishful ignorance? half formed creatures huh? Why are there still monkeys? What about pygmies and dwarves? I know that you aren’t really that foolish, I wonder why you posture that way here.
Yesterday i was looking at some insects I had collected. Under my microscope was one such beast. I suppose I imagined it. Since such a beast does not and can not exist, I suppose I won’t bore you with the details (I know you would rather be harrumphing about the state of the world and flagellating yourself in your prayer closet).
I have seen big morphological changes in insect genitalia like this several times. Of course, I’ll be honest (try that sometime, HSK and Xion), I have no idea if this is evolutionarily important. But it’s clear that it COULD BE.
What you misunderstand is that observing a morphological continuum is AN OBSERVATION. the continuum exists, as YOU even implied in post 11. the mechanism proposed to EXPLAIN the continuum is evolution by speciation.
Your mechanism is POOF. An open invitation to stupidity and reality denial. You are welcome to it, my knowledge denying friend. Smoking gun indeed. Walks, talks, smells, swims, quacks, genes, lives in places, tastes like a duck. What more do you need, O Solipcist?
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Stubob excellent idea.
There is a long history of the debate regarding gradual vs ’sudden’ evolution. It stretches to before Darwin’s time and in some sense even today.
Please note that none of this discussion is consistent with the notion of a Young Earth, or Duh Flud. May as well go home if that is your view.
The most famous debate predated the re-discovery of Mendels genetic work. See W Provine ‘Origin of modern population genetics’ or something similar for a brief thorough and enjoyable read.
another aspect of this debate has centered around a particular eastern european philosophy of determinism that postulated that evolution was the inevitable consequence of natural laws. no such laws have been discovered, except in the trivial sense that living things are alive etc. Goldschmidt was a proponent of the determined view, which is ultimately a mechanical mysticism that was quite impotent when faced with the challenge of supporting contentions with empirical data. See SJ Gould for more regarding these issues (under topics orthogenetics, formalism, saltation, etc. His last book, Structure of Evolutionary Theory is the best treatment but rather long and big).
Punctuated equilibria is viewed by some (essentially those who misunderstand it) as a saltational view. It is not and has never been such an explanation, instead it is a recognition that parapatry is very likely the most important mode of speciation and that this by definition will be unlikely to be captured in the fossil record at any one place. things happen much more quickly and dramatically in small populations for a large number of reasons, none of which have to do with POOF.
It’s hard to understand what HSK’s point in all of this was, except that it was obvious that he wished to trumpet to the world that he is proud of his ignorance. I don’t get that.
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No, really. The topic has to do with the statistical implausibility of evolution resulting from random mutations.
So far, we’ve got “Xion’s a poop head.” That’s one approach, but it doesn’t really support random mutations adding up in a positive direction. So, where is the support?
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Xion: My point about the transitional nature of life forms is that Creationists are forever demanding “where are the transitional forms” as if they think there should be some obvious half-dinosaur half-bird fossil if birds really evolved from dinosaurs.
But it doesn’t work that way. The changes are subtle and gradual for the most part, and any individual you examine is a functional species in its own right. It’s only when you pull back and consider a very long span of time that you can see the changes in a larger context.
What sort of “smoking gun” do you imagine there should be? We know genes can mutate or change their function. We know that changes in genes lead to changes in the organism. We know that organisms that are well adapted for an environment survive to reproduce more often than competing, less well adapted organisms. We have a fossil record that accords, in terms of where in the geological strata fossils are found, with what evolutionary theory predicts. (The continuum is not made up, as you suggest. We don’t find fossils willy nilly at all layers and organize them on paper. They’re already organized, in the wild, because the creatures lived and died at different points in time.)
As has been said, find a fossil of a modern mammal in the same geological stratum as dinosaurs, and you’d disprove evolution. It’s never happened. If it does happen, the scientific world will have to deal with it, but until and unless it does, the theory is safe.
Evolution has all the elements of a very well supported scientific theory. The way to overturn it would be to come up with a better theory. Creationists have NO evidence for their ideas, so they act as if poking very small holes in evolution is somehow vindication for Creationism, even though most of those efforts are based in misinformation (as Harrison is doing here) and even though NONE of them constitute positive evidence for Creationism.
Where is your evidence that all life forms appeared suddenly at about the same time? Where is your evidence that the Universe is only a few thousand years old? Where is your evidence that there was ever a time when there was no death in the world? Where is your evidence that the various human cultures were spread around the Earth suddenly and miraculously (after the Tower of Babel?)
You have NONE … and yet you think a pinhole or two in evolutionary theory is enough to allow you to declare victory.
How do you justify that?
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Stubob at #12: OK, I’m going to propose we do something totally and uncharacteristically scientific here. Instead of, ahem, devolving into a discussion about the relative merits of Intelligent Design, how about we actually get some posts on the actual topic of “The Hopeful Monster”?
I suggest that that conversation should start with everyone reading the article that Harrison linked to. It doesn’t say what Harrison says it does.
The point of the article is that sometimes a change in a single gene can cause significant changes in an organism. One example the author presents is a gene that codes for the number of legs an organism has. In insects, it creates six legs. In aquatic creatures, the same gene codes slightly differently and the organisms have different numbers of legs.
This does not mean evolutionary theory is “wrong.” It is an illustration of how science progresses. Where scientists might once have assumed that such a morphological difference would require a large number of mutations, we know now that it’s simpler than that. It’s a textbook case of how scientists take new information — in this case from a relatively new field of study, genetics — and modify their ideas to take it into account.
Ironically, this actually strengthens evolutionary theory, because it means that such changes are easier to accomplish than was previously believed.
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There is a problem I have with the idea of gradual change leading to speciation, and I’m seriously asking here, not attacking.
Gradual changes in species result from random mutations, some of which are selected ‘out’ and some remain. I find a problem with this theory that I cannot explain.
If these changes are so gradual, how can the advantageous traits be consistently selected by evolutionary pressures from the less advantageous traits?
A limb that will eventually become a wing seems like it would be of little/no advantage until it reaches the point where it can achieve some sort of lift, at least for gliding or such. Why should that trait remain until it is large enough to be of use? That question is similar to the idea of “irreduceable complexity”, but I think it is more basic. And I really am curious what you guys think, I’m not trying to ’start something.’
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My personal favourite to counter both the “there are no transitional forms” and “irreducible complexity” arguments is the evolution of the eye.
Although I wouldn’t cite wikipedia, it’s a good jumping off point to get a basic understanding and citations for better sources.
Here is a link to evolution of the eye
The irreducible complexity argument, as I understand it, is that they eye has to have been created all-at-once. Partial eyes are not seen (pun intended) as being useful. But, it appears that there are a gamut of useful light-detection schemes ranging from simple light-sensitive spots, through pinhole-camera types, on through lens-less and finally fully developed vertebrate eyes. So much for irreducible complexity.
For transitional forms of creatures with these varying forms of “vision”, note that planaria have simple “cup” eyes, and the nautilus has a “pinhole-camera” eye.
So, and as SteveG points out at #8, the transitional forms that creationists demand aren’t something that existed only in the past, but are in fact all around us. Evolution isn’t an event that happened, it is a process that is happening, an important distinction in verb tenses.
Also, it means that Xion in #9 is just plain wrong, in stating, “There are no mutant life forms walking around, with partial organs and limbs becoming something grander.” But in fact, there are clearly organisms with partial eyes, along the continuum as listed above. Not walking, true, but they are definitely around.
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“The topic has to do with the statistical implausibility of evolution resulting from random mutations.”
That has nothing to do with the topic of ‘hopeful monsters’ and nothing to do with the article. The ’statistical implausibility’ is a function of an inappropriate statistical model.
There is a great deal of evidence regarding evolution by simple mutations. nylon polymerase. disease resistance. I’m not sure what caused the insect genitalia to be so dramatically different in the specimens I was referring to, but I am rather certain what species the insect is (genitalia is a diagnostic) and it is clear that multiple things were different from the type specimens. Mutation or development? those are not mutually exclusive.
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Jack Stowage at #18: Gradual changes in species result from random mutations, some of which are selected ‘out’ and some remain. I find a problem with this theory that I cannot explain.
If these changes are so gradual, how can the advantageous traits be consistently selected by evolutionary pressures from the less advantageous traits?
A limb that will eventually become a wing seems like it would be of little/no advantage until it reaches the point where it can achieve some sort of lift, at least for gliding or such. Why should that trait remain until it is large enough to be of use?
There are a couple of different reasons. For one, the selection isn’t always for positive changes. Purely neutral changes — things that don’t help but also don’t harm — likely would persist because the organism can do just fine with them.
The other reason is that a structure may have a use even before it has reached the form we’re accustomed to. While the specific evolutionary sequence leading to the modern wings of birds is not precisely known, some birds that can’t fly — either ever or when young — can increase their running speed by flapping their wings.
So a partial wing in the distant past could have allowed predators to more successfully capture prey, by allowing them to run faster than competing species without the proto-wings. As they succeeded and thrived, a few more slight modifications could have allowed the wings to provide sufficient lift for flight.
The evolution of the eye, which ChristianLeftist mentioned in #19, is another case. It’s true that the modern eye and its linkae to the brain that makes it possible to perceive imaes and understand what they are is quite complex. But a simple ability to sense to the difference between light and dark would have aided survivability in an ancient organism. It’s not necessary to have the whole assemblage in place right at the start.
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Even a primitive light/dark sensor would require the synthesis of dozens of specific proteins in a specific sequence, without which the whole thing is useless. Primitive eyes don’t disprove irreducible complexity. Rather, the retinol/Vitamin A cycle supports it.
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22 posts and no answers to the question: Where is the evidence?
It’s not a hard question and I do appreciate all the educated dancing around with eyes, wings, running faster, etc., but where is the evidence?
A became C because of changes to A. Supposedly there is a B between because the significant changes didn’t happen all at once—or maybe they did because a significant gene went dead or whatever—but we still have no B. We have A and we have C, but B just isn’t there. Why not? A and C are significantly different enough to expect the changes between A and B to be at least discernible as should be the changes between B and C, but without B we have nothing.
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ROND
If we had B, you’d demand to know where are A1 and B1 to get to C.
And if we had those, you’d demand to know where are A2 and B2.
People who ask this question will not be satisfied unless we could somehow produce the fossil remains of every individual organism from A to Z, and maybe not even then.
It’s a bogus question. Maybe you don’t understand why it is, but it is.
Where is your evidence — ANY evidence — for Biblical creationism? The evidence for evolution is not complete. The evidence for Creationism does not exist at all. Which makes the stronger case?
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What sort of “smoking gun” do you imagine there should be?
How about the half man/half ape creatures Evolutionist have celebrated over the years as the “missing link” that were later found to be frauds?
Why would they have gone to such great lengths to create (pun intended) such frauds if it wasn’t necessary to produce one?
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If we had B, you’d demand to know where are A1 and B1 to get to C.
Whatever. We should have millions and millions of failed transitional fossils if Evolution truly occurred. Where are they?
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SteveG, are you saying that we already see transitional forms, or that transitional forms are unnecessary?
BTW, this statement, For one, the selection isn’t always for positive changes. Purely neutral changes — things that don’t help but also don’t harm — likely would persist because the organism can do just fine with them is flatly contradicted by evolutionary theory. You’re positing that certain “neutral” mutations may appear, persist, and prove useful after combining with some future, random mutation?
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SteveG, are you saying that we already see transitional forms, or that transitional forms are unnecessary?
Every form IS a transitional form. Including the forms that exist today. ChristianLeftist put it very well in #19: Evolution isn’t something that has happened in the past; it IS happening now.
The more fossils we find, the more gaps we can bridge. Unfortunately that means that where we once had species D and species F with one gap between them, we now have species D and E and F with two gaps for the nabobs like Outkast to demand to know where are those TWO missing transitions?
And if we find them and have D and D1 and E and E1 and F, well, where are those FOUR missing transitions?
flatly contradicted by evolutionary theory. You’re positing that certain “neutral” mutations may appear, persist, and prove useful after combining with some future, random mutation?
How is it contradicted?
Evolutionary theory, at its simplest, just says that organisms change over time and when they change in ways that increase their ability to survive, those species that survive best thrive and become dominant. A neutral change that doesn’t help or hurt survivabilty might or might not be retained–it won’t be selected FOR, but it won’t be selected against either.
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Alright, I over-spoke on the “flatly contradicted” bit. Given how much of each species’ DNA is never expressed, I suppose there’s room in there for all kinds of presently unexpressed variation.
BUT, I don’t buy that the mutations necessary to get from “no organ of sight” to “primitive eye,” minus one more mutation, were ever hanging around awaiting one individual with the mutation that made the whole thing work.
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SteveG, you are right, and I’ll go further. If evolution was gradual, then you’ll have to show me that A1a, A1b, A1c, etc. really existed. Instead the existing fossils show quite distinct species. As other people have pointed out, you are still asserting without proving. You are basically saying that transitional forms exist because they exist.
Erasmus is getting close when he talks about mutated insects, but will those mutated specimens thrive and will they reproduce? And if they do, will they eventually form a new species, or will they be just a subspecies? (I realize the distinction is arbitrary but it is important, because lots of Creationists readily accept the fact that species have changed.)
So, SteveG, historically speaking, which museums hold the millions of fossils of obvious in-between creatures that gradual evolution produced? And if those fossils don’t exist, then we are back to the topic of the thread: Punctuated Equilibrium.
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Kyle A: If evolution was gradual, then you’ll have to show me that A1a, A1b, A1c, etc. really existed. Instead the existing fossils show quite distinct species.
OK, you tell me then: What characteristics would distinguish a “transitional fossil” from a “quite distinct species?” In what way should a transitional form differ from a distinct species?
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And while you’re at it, show me where to find the evidence for the sudden appearance of all life forms a few thousand years ago. It must be obvious, right? Where is it?
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I guess the heart of my objection is twofold:
that if evolution is limited to gradual changes, those gradual changes seem likely to fall below the level of general ‘background noise’ of general predator/prey relationships and other potential sources of evolutionary pressures and selection is a great part ‘chance’
and regardless of that first point, it seems very likely that many traits that appear advantageous in a mature state may physically ‘had’ to have been disadvantageous in some theoretical less-mature state. The eye example was good. As a thought experiment, if you attempt to ‘devolve’ an ‘advanced’ version of an eye, I can imagine how it’s predecessors may have ‘had’ to pass through stages where (for at least some length of time) worked ‘worse’ than the prior model… kinda like XP and Vista…
Now, I realize that I use this example without fully looking into the eye (or other examples) to see how the evidence really looks, but I intend to, now that it’s been raised.
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“It’s a bogus question. Maybe you don’t understand why it is, but it is.”
I demand no A1, A2, A3, or B1, B2, B3, or C1, C2, C3 or starting from/going to any specific level of A, B, or C. Just any one individual clearly identified as B will be fine—you choose which one. Whatever level it is, as B it will show changes easily identified as coming from A and will explain how C came to have it’s characteristics which are radically different from those of A.
That’s not hard, it’s not bogus and it should be there in your freezer, rock box or whatever.
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“Evolution isn’t something that has happened in the past; it IS happening now.”
That makes it even easier. Produce a live or recently deceased link between A and C and there’ll be no need to explain why your rocks all look alike.
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Rond:
I demand no A1, A2, A3, or B1, B2, B3, or C1, C2, C3 or starting from/going to any specific level of A, B, or C. Just any one individual clearly identified as B will be fine—you choose which one. Whatever level it is, as B it will show changes easily identified as coming from A and will explain how C came to have it’s characteristics which are radically different from those of A.
The bolded part is part of why it’s bogus. Here is a sequence of species showing the path taken in bird wings, but due to the incompleteness of the fossil record, there are gaps of several millions of years in between each example.
You are asking for a species that clearly fits in between an A and B? The archaeopteryx fits in between the velociraptor and modern birds. It’s a B. There even are some A1s and B1s on this page.
But I already know that won’t satisify the “gaps” people. Because there are gaps, and due to the realities of science, there always will be gaps. And the more examples come to light to fill in the gaps just create more gaps. Smaller gaps, but more of them.
But while I’m at it, Here is a link to a few more sequences.
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I’m just posting to run up the total for Harrison. I have been pretty hard on him and hope to make him a winner for mosts posts this week. His poetry still is still ‘just fair prose’
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Another “all or none” example is reproduction. There are several kinds of asexual reproduction and one kind of sexual reproduction (more or less).
In order for a sexual species to arise from an asexual species, dozens of complimentary mutations would have to occur in two individuals at exactly the same time in exactly the same place. Doesn’t this present some challenges for the “evolution by chance mutation” theory?
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SteveG: “But I already know that won’t satisify the ‘gaps’ people.”
Right, and it shouldn’t. It’s like telling me to believe in the Yeti without showing me the actual Yeti. You want us to believe in evolution without there being physical evidence of evolution (actual physical evidence that the process occurred). Talk about faith!
There’s no qualitative difference between accepting evolution on fatih and accepting creation on faith.
Here’s a clumsy analogy. If you showed me a horse cart and told me that the automobile evolved from it, I might be willing to consider the possibility, but I would not be convinced until you showed me the various stages that were in between. I think that would make it clear how the evolution occurred and prove that it did.
It’s a bad analogy because horse cart to automobile is like chimpanzee to human, but you want me to believe in something like worm to human. It’s also a bad analogy because the horse cart and the various transitional stages to the modern automobile were designed and built by intelligent people, and you want me to believe that organisms far more complex just appeared and developed on their own.
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“Evolution isn’t something that has happened in the past; it IS happening now.”
That makes it even easier. Produce a live or recently deceased link between A and C and there’ll be no need to explain why your rocks all look alike.
Rond, your challenge is too easy.
Go back to my post #19, and please do check out the link. They pinhole-camera eye of the nautilus is an intermediate link in eye development between eye-spots as in planaria, and fully developed eyes.
The transitional forms aren’t just in the fossil record, they’re all around us. In fact, they are us.
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Kyle A: Right, and it shouldn’t. It’s like telling me to believe in the Yeti without showing me the actual Yeti. You want us to believe in evolution without there being physical evidence of evolution (actual physical evidence that the process occurred). Talk about faith!
Yep, see? You asked for a B in an A-B-C sequence. I showed it to you. Now you say no, there must be more.
It’s more like my showing you a photograph of the Yeti and you insisting on seeing a movie .. and then being shown a movie and demanding to see one in a zoo … and then seeing one in a zoo and demanding to be allowed to dissect it … and so on.
Where is evidence for the sudden appearance of all life forms in a span of a few days? You keep going on on about weaknesses in the evidence for evolution but you can present NO evidence for sudden and special Creation. If you could, you would have. Instead the Creationists somehow never even seem to see the question, no matter how many times I ask it.
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Oh, and just so I can tweak the noses of the pure materialists, the more I learn about evolution, the more awed I am by God’s power and creativity.
Evolution seems to me an incredibly complex and beautiful mechanism that He’s created, so that He can continue creating (or allowing evolution to create, same thing) new species. Even better, He has given us the ability to understand, in part, how He creates.
Changing slightly what I said in 19, “Creation isn’t an event that happened, it’s a process that is happening”
I’ll have my cake, and eat it too, thanks!
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It is difficult to resolve any particular perspective of reality with the platonic essentialism that is at the heart of this issue.
Christianists and others believe are essentialists. This is evident by the high frequency of arguments here on worldblog advanced in favor of human exceptionalism, ie that we are different from other animals by intrinsic characters that define human-ness.
the most amazing insight of darwin’s work was that this is an incorrect hypothesis. populations species and communities change: there can be no essence if there is change.
it is true that those who demand ‘missing links’ to fill ‘gaps’ see each link as constructing two gaps. It is also true that these people are misrepresenting, albeit perhaps in their ignorance of biology, what evolution really entails. talking about speciation and the development of wings in the same sentence is sloppy thinking.
punctuated equilibria suggested that major morphological changes occurred during speciation. the mode of speciation that fit fossil record best was the parapatric mode envisioned first by Darwin but fully extended by Mayr. IT IN NO WAY IS A THEORY OF POOF, Kyle.
Kyle, evolution is not accepted on faith, unless by faith you mean the sort of ordinary mundane faith as that the light will come on when you flip the switch or that your rear end is clean when the toilet paper is dry. You know, the faith that causes you to swing at a ball or to close your eyes when you shave? That is hardly faith akin to believing in Sky Beast with no evidence, the kind of faith it takes to ‘believe’ in evolution is the sort of faith that causes one to check the battery when the car doesn’t start (and not pray about it). It works. organisms have similar DNA. evolution suggests why that is the case. no other theory does (i use theory lightly here, for there ARE NO OTHER THEORIES).
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Christianleftist, you’re moving the goalposts. Is the pinhole eye a transitional form or a debunker of irreducible complexity?
In a comic book sort of way, I suppose you could call it a transitional form. But it’s irreducibly complex. Again, the inexplicable jump is from “no organ of sight” to “some light-sensing organ.”
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What would the transitional forms look like?
On a large scale, you would be able to line them up side by side and it would be clear that small changes occurred that caused the first to evolve into the second, the second into the third, and so on. You can’t convince me by just showing that certain organisms are similar or speculating that one could have evolved into the other.
On a microscopic scale you would have to show me how a genetic mutation caused the changes that occurred as each specimen evolved into the other. Showing me two organisms with hundreds of differences in their DNA sequences doesn’t convince me that those differences came about gradually.
Some of you are using circular reasoning. You are basically saying that you know transitional forms exist because you know that evolution is occurring and you know that evolution is occurring between transitional forms exist. But you haven’t shown that any obvious transitional forms, in an unbroken sequence, exist. So much for science being based only on observable fact!
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Did you even bother to follow the links I provided in #36? Many good examples of transitional sequences there.
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So basically Kyle A, you won’t believe evolution unless you can see it happen in real time with your own eyes?
That’s basically level of proof you’re demanding.
Where is your evidence for sudden special Creation? Find any yet?
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Who cares about “the hopeful monster.” This is an obscure debate about changes in life form that will never really be settled by either side. The important point is to distinguish between the truths of the narrow field of evolution and the metaphysical claims of naturalism and materialism that most of these Darwinists are trying to prove in order to justify their various forms of pelvic freedom.
I have no problem with the truly empirical claims of evolution, though these claims don’t begin to establish any Darwinian philosophical claim of naturalism or materialism. Evolutionary theory has no compelling proof of the origin of organic life including even a single cell, to say nothing of the creation of life, mind and the soul.
I’m afraid that Harrison has involved himself in the weeds of a dubiously interesting field of evolution and allowed some of the obsessive and humorless Darwinists to parade their dismal scientific knowledge.
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Evolutionary theory has no compelling proof of the origin of organic life including even a single cell, to say nothing of the creation of life, mind and the soul.
evolutionary theory isn’t about the origin of anything. It’s about change in what already exists.
No matter how often this is pointed out, it never seems to sink in.
Darwinists are trying to prove in order to justify their various forms of pelvic freedom.
Right.
Where is your evidence of special Creation?
Or do you just insist on Creation in order to justify your various forms of repressing and controlling other people’s pelvic freedom?
Why don’t you leave the cynical dismissal of imaginary motives aside and deal with the facts?
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Solon, speaking of dismal and humourless, you sure are a dour old bird. I’ll agree with you that Goldschmidtian evolutionary biology is dubious. There are some important points that he and the other formalists were right about, especially the notion of constraints.
But I’m just curious as to what pelvic freedoms you mean? Surely you are not so foolish as to suppose that support for good science is driven by sexual desires (I know you well enough to know that no rhetorical tactic is too dishonest or underhanded for you to use in ad hominem broadsides).
I’ll go you one further. Evolutionary biology has absolutely no compelling evidence regarding the origin of the sun, why water should be made of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, or (believe it or not, this is true: note that psychologists are not biologists) why you have chosen to believe in Sky Beasts.
Kyle if one were to extend the same burden of proof to anything else in the world nothing would ever be done. It’s called s**t or get off the pot. All you are doing is justifying your denial of science because it conflicts with what you perceive to be revealed knowledge from Sky Beasts. Circular reasoning indeed.
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evolutionary theory isn’t about the origin of anything. It’s about change in what already exists.
If that was true, there’d be very little debate. Unfortunately, the science of evolutionary biology got its start in a little book called The Origin of Species.
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by SteveG 01.24.08 at 2:45 pm
Did you even bother to follow the links I provided in #36? Many good examples of transitional sequences there.
All I see are animals already fully formed and functioning. It is only a theory that links them together. Arguing from the theory of Creation, we will not see transitional fossils in the fossil record. We don’t need to create elaborate theories to show what the fossil record already shows – no transitional fossils.
We have no problem with small changes over time – that is certainly observable and undeniable. It’s just a stretch to say that major changes occurred over time just because it is conceivable.
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#51: you are showing a glimmer of understanding. quick, i’ll blow on that tiny spark.
Darwin wished to understand how one species may become another species. Hence the origin of the title of the book.
Note it was not ‘The origin of life’. Nor ‘God doesn’t exist so hump what you will’ (that is for grimfaced doddering old solon. cheer up old chap! Wheel of Fortune at 7!)
#52 what ‘Theory of Creation’ are you referencing? the theory of Poof!? The theory of Allah Did It? The Theory that we live in the matrix and nothing is real? The theory that the universe is contained within the mind of a sleeping giant? There IS NO THEORY OF CREATION.
But prove me wrong, I’d love to see it.
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A prominent evolutionary biologist has weighed in on the misunderstandings promoted in this article.
http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/01/24/hopeless_monstersa_guest_post.php
Good read, although I disagree with Coyne regarding Gould and PE and also about the importance of hybridization and gene flow wrt to speciation, I recommend this article to those who are interested in biology.
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SteveG evolutionary theory isn’t about the origin of anything. It’s about change in what already exists.
Then why is it that Darwin’s magnum opus was titled Origin of the Species and many of his leading followers including Huxley, Dawkins, Dennet et al prattle on incessantly about Darwin’s theory of evolution as a proof of naturalism, materialism, and atheism?
Why is it, also, that most scientists outside the field of evolutionary biology are content to do work within the proper empirical and theoretical domain of science without engaging in theological or philosophical controversy? Also, there is a significant number of theistic evolutionists, though there voices are made null by the cacophony of the fanatical Darwinists.
The fact is that the fanatical Darwinists, as opposed to the empirical evolutionists, have involved themselves involved themselves in polemical metaphysics way outside of their depth. The whole thing is risible.
Or do you just insist on Creation in order to justify your various forms of repressing and controlling other people’s pelvic freedom?
We insist on Creation both on Biblical and philosophical grounds, including the reality of God’s moral law that regards forms of pelvic freedom outside marriage between men and women as a disorder of human nature and as grave sin that leads as a fact of life to human misery.
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StuBob at #51:
If that was true, there’d be very little debate. Unfortunately, the science of evolutionary biology got its start in a little book called The Origin of Species.
The origin of species from other species. Not the original start of life, consciousness, mind, etc.
Stop being deliberately thick. You have to know that you’re mixing up two entirely different things here.
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SteveHu at #52: All I see are animals already fully formed and functioning. It is only a theory that links them together. Arguing from the theory of Creation, we will not see transitional fossils in the fossil record.
To call it “only” a theory tells me you don’t understand the meaning of the word “theory” as a term of art (as opposed to its common usage.)
Animals “fully formed and functioning” ARE TRANSITIONAL FORMS!! What else do you think they should be? How many times does it have to explained to you that there is no such thing as a “transitional form” that is different from any other organism? It is a false concept that doesn’t exist in the science.
It does not even seem like a particularly complicated idea to me.
There is no “theory of Creation.” Further indication you don’t understand the word.
If God did create all lifeforms at once over the span of a few days a “theory of Creation” would predict that we would find their remains in the earth all jumbled together. They would all have lived at the same time so there would be no separation of distinct groups into different layers of the Earth based on how many millions of years apart they lived.
That, however, turns out to be completely wrong. Poof goes your “theory” of Creation.
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Steve,
OK, I’ll accept that it’s hard to produce a B—apparently impossible as your links and others to them complain—but I’m not asking for two or more, just one out of all that must exist from any genus. If you don’t have one, then I’m sorry—life is hard and sometimes you just don’t close the sale.
I am curious though . . . your link showing the transitional timeline of the wing from the Sinosauropteryx to the modern bird wing of present runs right through the KT boundary in which life on earth was apparently impossible because the heat thrown up by the asteroid, which engulfed the atmosphere, was likened to a broiler unit in an oven baking the earth to the point of melting rock for a decade. Also it seems that the debris thrown up encapsulated that heat against the earth, trapping it, as well as not allowing any sunlight to penetrate to the surface thus killing all plant life that might have survived—i.e. food for the food of birds.
If the earth was void (oops, a mystical Biblical term) of life 65 MYA how did the continuum of this ever progressing wing happen? Wasn’t there a life “reset” 65 MYA to any progress evolution had made up to that point—meaning that we were back to the primordial soup waiting for a lightening strike since no evidence of anything before made it through the KT boundary? And, if so, wouldn’t that compress recent evolutionary transition making change more apparent between A and C as it lost a couple of hundred million years of working time yet caught back up? But, yet here we are—as Erasmus would say—steeped in change. How about one of those Bs, or are they just too hard as well?
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Stop being deliberately thick. You have to know that you’re mixing up two entirely different things here.
You flatter me, thinking my thickness is deliberate. BUT, I’m NOT mixing up two different things if, as evolution apologists on wmb constantly assert, there is no distinction between “micro” and “macro” evolution.
Besides, when SteveG says “evolution isn’t about the origin of anything,” I’m assuming he means “anything,” including species.
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StuBob (#59) … the assertion was that evolution doesn’t explain the “origin of organic life including even a single cell, to say nothing of the creation of life, mind and the soul.” (#48)
I replied that it doesn’t even attempt to explain those things because it’s not about the origin of things … by which I meant, it’s not about the origin of organic life, or the mind or the cell … it’s about how things develop and change. (#49) … I figured my meaning would be clear since I was directly responding to #48.
But then you and Peter Leavitt both pounced on the word “origin” in the title of Darwin’s book … but that, of course, specifically refers to the origin of species. That is, it refers to the way a species arises from another species through natural forces … NOT the origin of life in the first place.
So if your thickness was not deliberate, then I stand corrected. However, you are most certainly confliating two separate things based on the cheap rhetorical trick of identifying a word in common and failing to notice the different ways in which it is applied.
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Rond at #58: I am curious though . . . your link showing the transitional timeline of the wing from the Sinosauropteryx to the modern bird wing of present runs right through the KT boundary in which life on earth was apparently impossible because the heat thrown up by the asteroid, which engulfed the atmosphere, was likened to a broiler unit in an oven baking the earth to the point of melting rock for a decade. Also it seems that the debris thrown up encapsulated that heat against the earth, trapping it, as well as not allowing any sunlight to penetrate to the surface thus killing all plant life that might have survived—i.e. food for the food of birds.
If the earth was void (oops, a mystical Biblical term) of life 65 MYA how did the continuum of this ever progressing wing happen?
Hmmm … I don’t remember the event as having been quite so apocalyptic. If I recall right, something like 50 or 60 percent of the organisms that were known to exist immediately prior to the event apparently didn’t survive it. That means 40 or 50 percent did.
This was the event that is widely believed to have caused the dinosaurs to finally go extinct, clearing the way for smaller animals including mammals and modern birds to become far more dominant.
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“Evolutionary biology has absolutely no compelling evidence regarding the origin of the sun, why water should be made of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, or … why you have chosen to believe in Sky Beasts.”
Well actually, there are a few prominent atheists who would disagree with you. Evidently, according to them, our moral beliefs are an evolved thing. So cannot metaphysical beliefs be evolved as well? Time will only tell whether one belief system will benefit the species or not… I imagine some of us are in for either a rude awakening or an abrupt end of knowing anything.
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As I follow this “debate” here on WMB, I find it rather humorous that so far the argument of the anti-evolutionists largely goes unanswered except for “everyone who disagrees is a poophead” or the “you just don’t understand the theory” type of comment.
That’s not much of an argument… I remain unconvinced for some reason.
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SteveG, Darwin in titling his book Origin of Species must have known that this would be a provocative title. In fact it was a sly way of implying that he was a writing a book about Genesis. His colleague, the scientist Sedgewick, in fact talked to him that in writing a supposedly scientific alternative explanation of Creation he had placed himself on precarious and controversial ground.
While Darwin professed to be an agnostic, the fact is that virtually every atheist cites Darwin’s theory of evolution as the alternative explanation for evolution. Also, the contemporary advocates of sexual “freedom,” especially Foucault, cite Darwin for proof that men are mere descendants of ordinary animals. While men do have common physical descent from animals, they, also, have qualities of mind and spirit that make them qualitatively quite distinct from animals. We know this from both the Bible and practical reason.
Personally, I agree with scientists including Asa Gray in Darwin’s time and Francis Collins today and many other Christian scientists that a credible case can be made for both Genesis and empirical evolution.
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OK, ignoring original origins for the moment, what about those random mutations and photosensitive organs? Or sexual reproduction?
I did well enough in biology to get accepted to medical school, but I remain unconvinced that the jump from photo-insensitive to photosensitive or from asexual to sexual can be explained on the basis of random mutations.
But then, I’ve never solved a Rubik’s Cube, so I have no confidence in random events.
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Didn’t you mean; ….the fact is that virtually every atheist cites Darwin’s theory of evolution as the alternative explanation for creation?
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If God did create all lifeforms at once over the span of a few days a “theory of Creation” would predict that we would find their remains in the earth all jumbled together. They would all have lived at the same time so there would be no separation of distinct groups into different layers of the Earth based on how many millions of years apart they lived.
Why, according to evolution, should there be distinct groups in different layers? Shouldn’t it be a gradient of change in these layers, not distinct groups? But perhaps that’s only a miswording on your part, and things do in fact look that way.
Anyway, we certainly would expect all creatures to be jumbled together in the same area, with the extinct ones not appearing as close to the surface. However, this idea has a problem. This problem is the global flood described in Genesis. If the earth had no such disasters, we should not expect to find many fossils after only 6,000-10,000 years. But a flood of such magnitude would disturb vast amounts of sediment and thereby bury billions of creatures, sealing them off from air. This would also result in a layered effect, as more aquatic creatures would be at the bottom, with fast-moving land-dwellers at the top. This would be expected from the flood’s movement from the oceans to the mountaintops and back. Or so I understand it.
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Incidentally, I object to the theistic evolutionist’s portrayal of evolution as “beautiful”. Evolution is a hideous, cutthroat process. Why would God use that to get to humankind rather than just creating humankind? But then, I suppose the assumption is that we’re still changing. But why would God make things that way at all? It’s clumsy and relies on lots and lots of death. Death before sin in itself raises obvious moral objections, though moral objections don’t really determine fact.
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Make It Man, thanks for correcting that error.
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Peter Leavitt at #64 (amended): While Darwin professed to be an agnostic, the fact is that virtually every atheist cites Darwin’s theory of evolution as the alternative explanation for [Creation].
That is true. Most atheists, or at least the ones who think about the question at all, accept evolution. Since they don’t believe in any gods, they can’t really appeal to magical creation, and there are no other viable scientific theories, so evolution is pretty much it.
But the converse is not necessarily true. That is, while most atheists accept evolution, most of those who accept evolution are NOT atheists. Or at least, that has not yet been proved.
As for the title of Darwin’s book, it doesn’t matter? The theory of evolution does not now and never has addressed the ultimate start of life. Biologists do of course think about that and there are some hypotheses about it, but they are separate endeavors from evolution.
To use an analogy, evolution is about cars developed from Model Ts and Model As into today’s diversity of makes and models. It doesn’t address the original invention of the car.
My statement that evolution isn’t about the origin of “anything” was directly in response to the allegation that it can’t explain the origin of life, or the cell, or the mind or the soul. I would have thought that was clear from the context, but in any event I’ve explained it clearly now multiple times.
I will gladly defend any position I take, but I’m not going to be pressed to defend positions that others have invented for me.
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Make It Man at #63: As I follow this “debate” here on WMB, I find it rather humorous that so far the argument of the anti-evolutionists largely goes unanswered except for “everyone who disagrees is a poophead” or the “you just don’t understand the theory” type of comment.
Funny. I see the exchange as going more like this.
Creationist: You can’t show me a single transitional form.
Evolutionist: Here are several examples.
C: No they aren’t.
E: What do you mean? It’s right there.
C: I don’t see it.
E: Have you looked at the link?
C: Yes. I just see animals. No transitions.
E: They’re all transitions.
C: No they’re not. Transitional forms would be pink with purple spots.
E: Huh?
C: So there are no transitional forms.
E: Who said they would be pink with purple spots?
C: That’s what they would be if they existed.
and so on
Make It Man, it’s legitimate to tell people they don’t understand the theory if they’re repeatedly demanding to be shown something the theory never said would be there and refusing to accept that they have a mistaken expectation.
The transitional forms issue is a case in point. Evolutionary theory holds that life is always undergoing changes, and that any form that exists at any given time evolved from and earlier one and will evolve into a future one. But while it is the current form, it’s a functioning organism in its own right.
To be told repeatedly that a “real” transitional form would have half-formed structures or be half one thing and half another is frustrating … those things really don’t exist, but no one who understands the theory would agree that they should. It just doesn’t work that way.
The archaeopteryx is the oldest known bird, and it still has a beak full of sharp teeth left over from its ancestors. It’s about as close to the kind of transitional form that the Creationists are expecting as we have, but still they say “it’s a bird with teeth.”
Meanwhile, the Creationists are smugly insisting that they know evolution can’t be true because of this or that weakness they point out. Therefore they say Creationism must be true … even though they can produce no positive evidence for Creation whatsoever.
So to recap: Evolution has a lot of supporting evidence with a few weaknesses — it must be false. Creationism has zero evidence — so it must be true.
I don’t understand how people can’t see the glaring logic error there.
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SteveG, the problem with Darwin is that some of the the “others” whom you talk about have wreaked havoc in the world using his proposition of the survival of the fittest. Richard Weikart has written a recent scholarly volume, From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany, that traces a clear line of thought from Darwin to the eugenics movement of past years. The following is from a dustjacket of this book:
In this compelling and painstakingly researched work of intellectual history, Richard Weikart explains the revolutionary impact Darwinism had on ethics and morality. He demonstrates that many leading Darwinian biologists and social thinkers in Germany believed that Darwinism overturned traditional Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment ethics, especially those pertaining to the sacredness of human life. Many of these thinkers supported moral relativism, yet simultaneously exalted evolutionary “fitness” (especially in terms of intelligence and health) as the highest arbiter of morality. Weikart concludes that Darwinism played a key role not only in the rise of eugenics, but also in euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial extermination, all ultimately embraced by the Nazis. He convincingly makes the disturbing argument that Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian principles rather than nihilistic ones. From Darwin to Hitler is a provocative yet balanced work that should encourage a rethinking of the historical impact that Darwinism had on the course of events in the twentieth century.
You and other fundamentalist followers of Darwin seem blithely unaware of the consequence of Darwin’s thought.
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Peter Leavitt at #72: ,i>You and other fundamentalist followers of Darwin seem blithely unaware of the consequence of Darwin’s thought.
I’m aware of it. But what relevance does it have to the question of whether it is true?
The only criterion for accepting or rejecting idea should be whether it’s true, or on the right track to truth. A lie may be prettier, but it’s still a lie.
The fact that evil people can take an idea and use it to justify evil acts doesn’t make the idea factually wrong. I don’t buy the argument from consequence as a reason to perpetuate a falsehood and suppress the truth.
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Cuthalion at #67; Why, according to evolution, should there be distinct groups in different layers? Shouldn’t it be a gradient of change in these layers, not distinct groups? But perhaps that’s only a miswording on your part, and things do in fact look that way.
Well there are gradients but the point is that there are identifiable epochs. The lifeforms do not appear to have all lived at the same time. There are clearly those that lived earlier and those that lived later in the Earth’s history. And they are separated by millions and billions of years, not a matter of days.
Anyway, we certainly would expect all creatures to be jumbled together in the same area, with the extinct ones not appearing as close to the surface. However, this idea has a problem. This problem is the global flood described in Genesis. If the earth had no such disasters, we should not expect to find many fossils after only 6,000-10,000 years. But a flood of such magnitude would disturb vast amounts of sediment and thereby bury billions of creatures, sealing them off from air. This would also result in a layered effect, as more aquatic creatures would be at the bottom, with fast-moving land-dwellers at the top.
The problem with that, apart from the fact that there is no sign of a global flood anywhere, is that that’s not an accurate description of what we find either.
The earliest life was aquatic, yes. But once land life appeared, it went through eons of evolution and the early forms are different from the later forms. The distribution of fossils in the strata would still have the land animals at least roughly mixed together. You’d find dinosaurs and mammoths at random points, and you’d see a lot of fossils of modern animals too (because modern tigers and sabre-tooth tigers would have been contemporaneous under this idea.)
Instead we still find a progression of forms and we don’t find fossils of modern animals.
Finally, fossilization is a relatively rare occurrence. If all the land animals had died in the same cataclysmic event, there would be many more fossils.
In addition, fossilization is a relative rare occurrence.
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Oops .. ignore the final sentence there. I meant to delete it.
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Well SteveG,
I’d be a lot more apt to listen to your side of the argument if you could just dispel the notion that your side of it isn’t circular as StuBob and Xion have pointed out.
“The transitional must be what is, because what is, is transitional. Isn’t it obvious?”
No. I’m afraid it isn’t. Please explain why your reasoning isn’t circular.
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SteveG,
I’ve been following this discussion with a lot of interest. I can accept the possibility that God used evolution as a means of creating, or that He created each species directly (over a very long time period – I’m not a young-earth creationist). Perhaps to take Make It Man’s question in #76 and word it a little differently (and I hope, MIM, without distorting your meaning) –
Given animals A, B, and C, where you would consider B a transitional form between A and C, what is it that would look different if B did in fact develop from A, and C from B, than if A, B, and C had all been created directly by God apart from any evolutionary process?
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It should be noted that Weikart’s scholarship is denounced by a majority of scholars. It is trivial to find an equal amount of support for ‘Hitlerism’ from Christianity. Invoking Weikart means that you have departed from honest discourse, for there is a long history of eugenic ideas, many of which can be traced through the bible, but which permeate every single community of humans that have ever felt the draw of social membership. In short, Weikart’s revisionism is not an honest mistake, it is as carefully and deliberately intelligently designed to obscure the truth as is the rest of the pablum ejaculated by the other Discovery Institute Fellows.
This story, and the simple WASP interpretation of history replete with manifest destinies and self-evident truths, appeals to doddering old men who are bitter about their lot, and it appeals to those who have constructed a desire to be perennially comforted by the murmurings of fictions.
Sky Beast Worshippers never consider that if they are going to blame Darwin for Hitler etc, for advancing the notion of evolution ‘without a creator’ then 1) to be honest one must consider causes far more antecedent than Darwin, but Heraclitus, Democritus Diogenes and Epicurus; and 2) Whoever invented the notion of a ‘god’ is responsible for more misery and suffering in the human race than any other faction in the history of the planet earth. In short, it is YOUR kind that has perpetuated undue human misery in the name of an altar to an unknown god that is not there.
You can’t admit this. It’s much easier to accept the sorcerer’s explanation. Solon is such a liar that he will misrepresent Francis Collins as a proponent of ‘Genesis’, when this of course is not true, unless Solon means that ‘genesis evolution’ includes extremely liberal ‘interpretations’ of what is purportedly a revealed and inerrant source. It is impossible to be intellectually honest and logically consistent and also defend the bible as any source of historical or scientific information.
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Pauline the question ‘what would an intermediate look like’ has been greatly facilitated by the discovery and use of population genetics and the sequencing of entire genomes of model organisms.
If one accepts descent via speciation, and therefore that phylogenies may yield knowledge about evolutionary relationships between organisms (species or populations or genera or families), then many features of the molecular data make sense in ways that would be expected if the mendelian hypothesis were true and if evolution proceeded more or less according to the mathematical models of Fisher Haldane and Wright, and many more since the 1950s.
If one does not accept evolution or common descent, then DNA data have no theoretical grounding. Gene duplications (look up how much DNA sequences there are in a yellow onion, versus how much in human sometime. Onion test on google will find it I think). Creationists have no theories to account for these data, they only have negative arguments from incredulity about how 1) evilution can’t have done it because we don’t know much about that sorta stuff, or 2) Evilution Hitler Darwin Homo etc nonsense that you see Solon weakly dribbling on his chin above (arguments from consequences).
Molecular phylogenies have confirmed a great deal of what biologists have suspected to be relationships between groups of living organisms. Sometimes findings have been contrary to the predictions of biologists (for example, the taxonomy and classification of fungi has been dramatically revised since the advent of molecular genetic analyses). To say that these analyses are irrelevant or meaningless is a weighty claim that has not been successfully defended by any science denier, whether by amateurs such as Solon or professional type hucksters like William Dembski or Jonathan Wells.
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Pauline at #77: Given animals A, B, and C, where you would consider B a transitional form between A and C, what is it that would look different if B did in fact develop from A, and C from B, than if A, B, and C had all been created directly by God apart from any evolutionary process?
If there’s a God in the way you envision, God could create organisms in any form He wants. He could create a universe that looks old even though it isn’t. He could, for that matter, have created you two minutes ago and given you a set of memories to make you think you have lived for a much longer time.
Once you start invoking God, there’s really no place for science. Science operates on the assumption that there are natural laws that operate consistently and can be used and investigated. If you ask “Well could an omnipotent God have done it supernaturally,” then you’re tossing those natural laws aside in favor of a miraculous intervention.
On the question of transitional forms, it’s really a misnomer. To demand to see a “transitional form” implies that A is one endpoint and C is another endpoint, and B is something in between. Evolution doesn’t hold that there are endpoints. Evolution doesn’t have a goal.
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For all the criticisms of evolutionary theory that are flying around, when are the Creationists going to come up with any evidence at all for their view?
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Pauline – 77
Would you explain to me how GOD Almighty could use evolution as a means of creating? I’m fascinated as to how you could come to this conclusion. How can evolution and creation define the Bible as the same? As you know Pauline, evolution is a theory of development from earlier forms, how would that stand with the Bible? Either you believe it or you don’t.
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There will be a point where mankind creates its own forms of life. Scientists will begin creating bacteria and then more and more complex organisms.
How will Young Earth Creationists react to this?
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Theo – 83
Mankind will create their own form of life? Are you sure about that? What will you tell GOD Almighty when you stand before HIM and explain your ‘little man’ ideas, your boastful created ideas? How will God react to YOU?
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Erasmus, the majority of Darwinian fundamentalist scholars probably find Weikart an anathema; however, you have no support for saying that a majority of scholars “denounce” him. Weikart is full professor and head of department of history at California State University, Stanislaus.
As to my “lying” about Francis Collin’s belief in Genesis, I should suggest that you read chapter six of his book Language of God, “Genesis, Gallileo, and Darwin,” in which he argues
that God created the universe and the laws that govern it; also that He endowed human beings with the capability of discerning these laws.
As your comment on both Weikart and Collins betray a lack of understanding, I take it that you have not read either of these books.
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SteveG at #80:
I may disagree with Pauline over the age of God’s creation, but your answer to her question amounts to a “Touché!”. Pauline 1, SteveG 0.
Perhaps it is possible to prove evolution with a jpg or a gif, but you certainly didn’t. Pauline is exactly right, and you don’t seem to understand the concept of proof. You are saying, “The street is wet, which is proof it rained last night.” Except that rain is just a possibility among many. It is a fallacy to argue “if a, then b; b, therefore a.”
What you have shown is not evidence *for* evolution, but an imaginary, hypothetical reconstruction *according to* evolution. Fossils don’t speak. There are no labels attached, except for the ones we attach. I see those fossils and I see them as evidence of common design. To paraphrase Bob Dylan, “We always did see the same fossils, We just saw them from a different point of view.”
And as an evolutionist, why do you deduce common descent from the homologies you have shown us? Why can’t those homologies be evidence of convergent evolution? Just curious.
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Theo at #83:
“How will Young Earth Creationists react to this?”
They WILL say: “See? I told you so!”
They WON’T say, “Wow, look at what random processes over time can create after all!”
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Theo (83): Scientists creating a “new form of life” doesn’t exactly disprove creation. In fact, it argues in favor of intelligent design.
So, ASaltyDog has it right.
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“Hopeful Monster”?
If such a “monster” ever did arise, he would have to be hopeful — that he would find a suitable mate to carry on his wonderful new mutations!
But I really think this (ahem) “theory” should be renamed the “Hoped-for Monster” theory, for the evolutionist finds himself hoping for its existence as another possible way to dismiss the existence of the God of Scripture.
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Victoria,
I consider Genesis 1 to teach that God created everything, not a record of the process used. The Bible also says that God sends rain and snow, but that does not invalidate our scientific understanding of how rain and snow are formed. It may be that God took on physical form to literally pick up handfuls of dirt to mold Adam, but there are enough anthropomorphic references to “the hand of God” where it does not mean that God used a physical hand to do something, that I can consider that possibility (that God did it but working through natural processes) for how God formed man also.
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ASaltyDog at #86:
I may disagree with Pauline over the age of God’s creation, but your answer to her question amounts to a “Touché!”. Pauline 1, SteveG 0.
Of course. I have to concede that point. Once you start bringing a God who can and does disrupt the natural laws at his whim, you can claim anything.
However, if you’re going to do that, then you can never really know anything. In reality, almost all of us except the severely insane operate on the assumption that nature follows its natural course most of the time. When we wake up to find snow on the ground, we assume — Christians included — that the snow fell from the clouds to the ground overnight. We don’t spend any time wondering if instead of that happening, God created the snow already on the ground — even though we could argue that perhaps he did, we assume he did not.
When we look at the history of life on Earth, though, suddenly the calculus changes. Considering the natural laws that we understand about natural selection, genetics, geology, paleontology, astronomy, etc., we can see how life forms have slowly changed over time. But some (by no means all!) religious believers have a stake in this one. They fear their theology would crumble if they allow themselves to accept the conclusions that the evidence indicates. So they go into overdrive trying to find any weaknesses they can in the science so they can continue to cling to their folktale of magical Creation … even though they have exactly zero evidence of such.
(I should note that Pauline and I don’t differ all that much … as a Deist, I also believe that God is the ultimate author of Creation, by designing natural laws in such a way to ensure evolution happened. However, I fully understand this is a matter of belief and faith and do not claim it to be science. I do differ sharply from young-Earth Genesis-based Creationists however. Their view is contrary to all observed evidence.)
Perhaps it is possible to prove evolution with a jpg or a gif, but you certainly didn’t.
Actually, no, it’s not. Evolution is a complex science and draws on a multiplicity of disciplines, some of which I named above. a bit of information here or there on the Web can illustrate a principle or fact here and there, but to truly bring a strong understanding of evolution takes a lot more time and information than that.
It’s even more difficult when trying to do it for a hostile audience whose primary goal is to poke holes in it at every opportunity. And the difficulty is further compounded by the fact that I’m no expert myself. I think I have a pretty good layman’s grasp on the main concepts, but Erasmus and a couple of other posters around here are much better versed on the details and the most current research than I am.
Pauline is exactly right, and you don’t seem to understand the concept of proof. You are saying, “The street is wet, which is proof it rained last night.” Except that rain is just a possibility among many. It is a fallacy to argue “if a, then b; b, therefore a.”
Here’s the problem with this statement: Science doesn’t deal in “proof,” it deals in probability. If a Creationist is demanding to have evolution proved, he’s going to remain a Creationist because the kind of proof that will convince a diehard Creationist that evolution is true doesn’t exist. This is partly because Creationists really aren’t interested in the truth. They deny a well-supported scientific theory as long as they can find even one or two small weaknesses that a scientist would understand as simply indicators of where more study needs to be done, and believe a story in a book that they cannot produce the slightest shred of external evidence for. There’s no argument from actual fact that will convince such a person to change his mind.
And it’s partly because even the staunchest supporter of evolution in the scientific community would not think in terms of proof. Scientific theories are by their nature subject to change. Evolution has weathered the test of time and seen every relevant scientific discovery made since Darwin first proposed it support the theory. It’s been expanded, modified and revised as needed, but the basic ideas have remained firm. But even so, something could be discovered tomorrow that would turn it on its ear.
So to use your wet street analogy, if you wake up and find all the streets wet, the most likely conclusion is that it rained overnight. There are other possibilities. Perhaps the fire department went around during the night and opened every hydrant within 20 miles of your house. Perhaps God created the water on the streets to trick you. But in the absence of evidence for any of these less likely alternatives, assuming it rained overnight is the most probable explanation.
And as an evolutionist, why do you deduce common descent from the homologies you have shown us? Why can’t those homologies be evidence of convergent evolution? Just curious.
Perhaps they are. Convergent evolution is still evolution.
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http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/DarwinAndHitler
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Genocide.cfm
As I have said before, it is trivially easy to quote mine Hitler and draw the same conclusions about “Luther to Hitler” or “Christianity to Hitler”. The question is then is there merit to this argument? And the answer is of course not, or at least no more merit than an argument blaming William Harvey for intravenous drug use. Correlation as the old saw goes.
There is no logical connection between the observation that natural selection might lead to speciation, (and the hypothesis that this has been responsible for the diversity of life we see tdoay) and the social-political-military ambitions of eastern european democratic dictatorships.
Interestingly though, there is support for the idea that there is a connection between religious ambitions and beliefs, and social-political-military ambitions of durned near everyone.
Pauline that is a sensible view.
“and the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
The bible clearly says that THE EARTH BROUGHT FORTH LIVING THINGS. The fundagelical world has attempted to twist their scriptures, in defiance of other scriptural commands, to interpret this to mean that GOD CREATED LIVING THINGS. The bible doesn’t say that. It says the earth did.
Now I am not tied to the view that the bible is literally true or even figuratively true. But if I were to believe that the bible is literally true, I would consider creationists to be following a false religion based on the construction of man.
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Of course sour old Solon you cannot deal with the merits of your argument but refer to authorities that, fortunately for you and for the rest of the Christian Reconstructionist movement, are more than willing to Lie For Jesus if it sounds like something that might fleece the flock a bit.
In this soundbite culture, any fool (like Weikart or the Moonie Wells or Harrison Scott Key or Dumbski or Denyse O’Leary or Ben Stein (notice how Steing has contradicted most of the DI Fellows recently?)) can make ridiculously false statements and not be held accountable for them.
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Erasmus, you’ve proved yourself on this thread to argue basically on the basis of ad hominem points. When you use such terms as “sour old Man, Dumbski, and Moonie Wells” you, also, have reduced yourself to argumentum ad ignorantium. When serious arguments are made against Darwinism, you reduce the level of discussion to crude personal attack.
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Pauline: So do you believe in a literal Fall of Mankind? Under that scenario, when did God decide who the first Adam was?
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Solon Wells is a Moonie, no? you are a sour old man, no? Dumbski I shall take credit for. 2 out of 3 ain’t bad. Are you sure you know what ‘ad hominem’ means? You have harrumphed and humbugged enough here to deny my characterization of you, but please don’t take it personal. I like sour old men, someday i hope to be one. Swatting my grand
Are you incapable of understanding that ad hominem is all that Weikart has accomplished? Even if it were true that No Darwin = No Hitler (and of course it is not true, or at least no one has demonstrated this at all), it would not change the solid evidence supporting biological evolution one iota. All that you and he have EVER done is argue from consequences to your perceived religion. One grand Chewbacca defense against biology. Well done.
You of course fail to grapple with the implications that ‘The Earth Brought Forth’ is not the same as ‘God Dun It’. Is the bible a little too pagan for you, my grim faced friend? If you were honest, you would change your tune to “The Bible Says The Earth Dun It, and God Dun’ed The Earth”. Either way it’s the sorcerer’s explanation, but at least it is consistent. Pardon me if I assume that consistency is something that you are concerned with.
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#95
Outkast,
All I can answer to that is, “I don’t know.” Not a really satisfying answer, I know, but that’s my honest answer to the question.
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Pauline – 90
Do you believe that Genesis is accurate as to creation, ALL OF IT?
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But that’s the reason many of us take the Creation story literally, Pauline — because it’s a crucial part of our entire theology. Why would we need a Second Adam, if there was no First Adam?
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SteveG at #91:
You said:
“Of course. I have to concede that point. Once you start bringing a God…”
Well SteveG, it sounds a bit late for you to realize only now what the debate is about, and what your opponents are saying. However, better late than never. And kudos to you for immediately conceding, as soon as that dawned on you, that if God exists then the fossils you showed are no necessary evidence for common descent at all. You only need to quit misrepresenting the God of the Bible as an arbitrary covenant-breaking idol (which is something nobody here is asserting as far as I can tell) and then the debate is over.
Oh, and of course the wet street is “most likely” due to rain only if a certain convenient scenario applies. If it’s May, and the wet street is located in a snow-covered Norwegian town, that’s “most likely” due to the melting of the snow, not to rain. Likewise you can’t say that common descent is the “most likely” explanation for the similar fossils without begging the question. If God exists, the “most likely” explanation for the origin of the universe is that he created it. If God exists, the “most likely” explanation for the homologies is that He designed different animals following some common patterns. It still remains a fallacy for you to argue “if a then b; b, therefore a.”
Then I asked, and you answered: “And as an evolutionist, why do you deduce common descent from the homologies you have shown us? Why can’t those homologies be evidence of convergent evolution? Just curious.” “Perhaps they are. Convergent evolution is still evolution.”
I appreciate your candor. But you don’t seem to get the point. If the homologies are not necessarily evidence of *common descent*, but can be interpreted in several other ways, why do you bring them in as evidence for common descent? Why are you outraged if, say, Kyle doesn’t buy that evidence? You told him, “Yep, see? You asked for a [transitional form] in an A-B-C sequence [of common descent]. I showed it to you. Now you say no, there must be more.” How can you say “I showed it to you”? Why does Kyle’s refusal to go along with your interpretation upset you? What’s in those pictures that DEMANDS that they be interpreted by Kyle as evidence of common descent? Because if there’s nothing that DEMANDS common descent, then why should we believe it? By admitting this point you have lost the debate.
Let me rewrite this dialogue in the light of these recent remarkable admissions of yours:
Creationist: You can’t show me a single transitional form.
Evolutionist: Here are several examples.
C: No they aren’t.
E: What do you mean? It’s right there.
C: I don’t see it.
E: Have you looked at the link?
C: Yes. I just see animals. No transitions.
E: They’re all transitions.
Pauline: Sorry to interrupt, but what is it that would look different if B did in fact develop from A, and C from B, than if A, B, and C had all been created directly by God apart from any evolutionary process?
E: Mmm… Well I guess they are not *necessarily* transitions, yeah.
ASaltyDog: Why do you treat them as evidence of common descent then? Even you admit that homologies sometimes have nothing to do with common descent, like in “convergent evolution”.
E: Yeah, good point.
Creationist: You can’t show me a single transitional form.
Evolutionist: You’re right. But I believe in evolution anyway. Try that. If you *start* with belief in evolution, the links I gave you will look like transitional forms.
That’s your evolutionism in a nutshell, my friend.
You see, you *start* with a framework, with a pattern, with a story, and then you fit the facts into it. You don’t reason from the facts to the framework. The fossils don’t come with labels. You stick the labels onto them.
Now the question I want to ask you then is WHY do you start with evolution. No evidence compels you to be an evolutionist. You *start* with being one. Now why do you do that? Why don’t you start with a Creator?
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ASaltyDog at #100:
it sounds a bit late for you to realize only now what the debate is about, and what your opponents are saying. However, better late than never. And kudos to you for immediately conceding, as soon as that dawned on you, that if God exists then the fossils you showed are no necessary evidence for common descent at all.
Once you start positing a God who can do anything he wants, then nothing is evidence of anything. This was my point, which flew right over your head.
Anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace, COULD have a miraculous explanation, if a person wanted to see it that way.
Does that make sense to do? No. Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened. We don’t sit around challenging people who say A and B happened to prove that God didn’t just cause C by miracle.
But you don’t seem to get the point. If the homologies are not necessarily evidence of *common descent*, but can be interpreted in several other ways, why do you bring them in as evidence for common descent?
Convergent evolution only means that creatures who live in similar environments can (and sometimes, but not always, do) develop similar types of structures as they adapt to those environments.
It is not in any way a contradiction to common descent. Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.
I will somewhat retract what I said, though, becuase in fact the specific examples I pointed to are relatively well-established and widely accepted examples of the evolution of single forms through descent. My point was that if someone pointed to an example of what was convergent evolution, it does no harm to the theory. Convergence is part of it.
In cases where convergence is the operative principle, we find that the exterior functions of systems are the same, but when you look under the hood, as it were, you find the underlying factors are different. Two planes both fly, but one has a propeller and the other is a jet — same function (flying), different mechanics to achieve it.
When two organisms have a common ancestry, the under-the-hood parts match too. The extreme similarly of human and chimpanzee DNA, including genes that have nothing to do with exterior form, shows common descent.
Bats and insects both have wings, but one is not presumed to be the direct ancestor of the other. They adapted to flight through different pathways. Archaeopteryx and the bald eagle both have wings; that is a case of common descent.
Oh, and of course the wet street is “most likely” due to rain only if a certain convenient scenario applies. If it’s May, and the wet street is located in a snow-covered Norwegian town, that’s “most likely” due to the melting of the snow, not to rain.
OK, fine. It’s most likely due to the most proximate natural cause. Rain, melting snow, whatever. We don’t normally invoke the miraculous to explain the natural.
Now the question I want to ask you then is WHY do you start with evolution. No evidence compels you to be an evolutionist. You *start* with being one. Now why do you do that? Why don’t you start with a Creator?
You cannot logically start with the conclusion. Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.
When are you going to produce one shred of positive evidence for Creationism? All we ever hear from Creationists is that “evolution has flaws” or “it is ‘just’ a theory,” or “it can’t be proved.”
Never is there evidence for Creationism, just various pinpricks and efforts at misdirection regarding evolution.
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#98
Victoria,
I do not consider Genesis to be a scientific account of creation. It tells what we need to know about God, about ourselves, and about the world around us.
#99
Outkast,
I am aware of that issue, and have given it lots of thought. I tried for a lot of years to believe in young earth creationism because that was what I was taught I needed to believe, that it was the only belief compatible with the Bible and Christian theology. I eventually discovered Christians who believe and preach the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ, who believe that He died for our sins and that we are saved only through trusting in Him, by His grace – but who did not consider it important to believe in a literal Adam. And I realized that I had never been completely convinced myself, that I had merely tried to accept what I was taught because I was supposed to.
It does’t work well to try to “make yourself believe” something. If the arguments are convincing, you believe it. If they’re not, you don’t. I realize that belief is not all an intellectual thing, that people sometimes believe very irrational things for reasons that have nothing to do with logical arguments.
I have many times examined myself to see if there is something I don’t want to surrender to God, that would cause me to struggle with believing what so many other Christians do. I have sins I struggle with, like other people, but I don’t see anything I am unwilling to repent of that would be a reason for my difficulty with believing.
I think it’s clear enough that sin is a universal problem. I certainly see it easily enough in myself. Whether it came from a literal Adam or not, it still corrupts us and blocks us from God. So we need a Savior.
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SteveG at #101,
I don’t know if you are trying to bluff, or if you are just clueless, or tired, or what, but you have missed all the points I made in my previous post. I don’t mean it as an offence, but with this reply you simply made a fool of yourself. You may want to go back, read my post, think, and reconsider.
Some more points:
- I invited you to quit misrepresenting the God of the Bible as an arbitrary covenant-breaking idol. You insist. Well, go ahead then. But I am not defending the religion you seem to be attacking.
- You write: “Anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace, COULD have a miraculous explanation, if a person wanted to see it that way.” This is precisely the Christian position, if, as I understand you, by “miraculous” you mean “caused by God”. So what?
- In most of your arguing, especially when capital letters appear in unusual quantities, you like to assume what you need to prove.
- “Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened.” That, my friend, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, is a logical fallacy.
- “[Convergent evolution] is not in any way a contradiction to common descent”. You completely miss my point. Read again what I said.
- “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.” If so, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent?
- “Bats and insects both have wings, but one is not presumed to be the direct ancestor of the other. They adapted to flight through different pathways. Archaeopteryx and the bald eagle both have wings; that is a case of common descent.” You are hammering the facts into the preconceived story. You are not making this kind of distinctions by watching the wings, but by consulting the accepted evolutionary tree.
- “OK, fine. [The wet street is] most likely due to the most proximate *natural* cause. Rain, melting snow, whatever. We don’t normally invoke the miraculous to explain the natural.” You *completely* miss my point. And I am sorry, but (following here your red herring for the sake of discussion) as a Christian I most certainly do regularly invoke the “miraculous” to explain the natural. Now what?
- “Why don’t you start with a Creator?” You reply, “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.” Except if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”?
- “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.
- “When are you going to produce one shred of positive evidence for Creationism?” Don’t be silly. Look around. *Everything* is positive evidence for “creationism”.
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Outkast at #99: But that’s the reason many of us take the Creation story literally, Pauline — because it’s a crucial part of our entire theology. Why would we need a Second Adam, if there was no First Adam?
So you choose to not consider the findings of science, not because you think them false, but because you fear their being true would collapse the house of cards that is your theology?
That is a mighty weak faith you have.
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SaltyDog at #103:
I don’t know if you are trying to bluff, or if you are just clueless, or tired, or what
Tired for sure. Not at all clueless and certainly not in any need of a bluff.
but you have missed all the points I made in my previous post. I don’t mean it as an offence, but with this reply you simply made a fool of yourself. You may want to go back, read my post, think, and reconsider.
Did I? I don’t think so.
Some more points:
- I invited you to quit misrepresenting the God of the Bible as an arbitrary covenant-breaking idol. You insist. Well, go ahead then. But I am not defending the religion you seem to be attacking.
- You write: “Anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace, COULD have a miraculous explanation, if a person wanted to see it that way.” This is precisely the Christian position, if, as I understand you, by “miraculous” you mean “caused by God”. So what?
I believe these two points go together so I’ll address them at once.
By “miraculous,” I do not mean “caused by God” in a general sense that God is the author of all things. I mean caused by God’s deliberate suspension of natural laws to do something that would normally violate them.
Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)
If so (and I am not assuming agreement, that is why I ask), then when we observe a natural phenomenon, we assume that it is part of the natural laws. We see the sun rise and we know it is because the Earth’s rotation is bringing our part of the world into the sunlight. We don’t need to spend a minute wondering if this particular sunrise is somehow caused by God suspending the natural laws to do something miraculous.
When the trees begin to sprout new leaves in the Spring, we know it is because that is what trees do as part of their natural life cycle. We don’t need to debate whether God is suspending the natural laws and making it happen.
I am not quite sure what you mean by “covenant-breaking idol,” so please elaborate.
- “Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened.” That, my friend, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, is a logical fallacy.
Huh? How? It’s a logical fallacy to assume the workings of a known cause when we see the effect that the known cause causes?
So let me get this straight … you have to have it proved to you that each sunrise is just the normal effect of the Earth’s rotation, because just knowing that that’s the usual cause of a sunrise is not good enough?
I don’t follow your reasoning here at all.
- “[Convergent evolution] is not in any way a contradiction to common descent”. You completely miss my point. Read again what I said.
- “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.” If so, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent?
Common descent is the linchpin of evolutionary theory. Ultimately, all life comes through it. But in any single example where two organisms have similar adaptive measures, there may or may not be a direct line of descent between them.
I used an analogy of airplanes. Ultimately, all airplanes share a common heritage. The physics that tell us how to shape wings so that the airflow around them will produce lift is common to all of them. But some get their forward propulsion with a propeller and others with a jet engine.
The engines are convergent … they serve the same purpose and for the same reason, but the mechanisms they use to accomplish it are different. The wings are common descent. Without that structure in place, the craft doesn’t get off the ground no matter how fast you make it move.
Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof. Considering all the evidence from the many relevant fields of science, the probability is high. People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.
But then, people who prefer to believe that the sun is actually Apollo’s chariot making its daily trip across the sky probably wouldn’t be convinced of the Earth’s rotation.
- “Bats and insects both have wings, but one is not presumed to be the direct ancestor of the other. They adapted to flight through different pathways. Archaeopteryx and the bald eagle both have wings; that is a case of common descent.” You are hammering the facts into the preconceived story. You are not making this kind of distinctions by watching the wings, but by consulting the accepted evolutionary tree.
See above. You can trace through the fossil record the gradual changes in bone structure that demonstrate the evolution from one species to another. We understand the mechanisms of how subtle mutations or simple changes in gene function can lead to some organisms that are better adapted for survival than others, and it’s just common sense that the animals better able to survive will survive in greater numbers and so propagate more successfully than competing species.
And over many thousands or tens of thousands of generations, those subtle changes and effects of natural selection give us eagles and falcons and wrens and woodpeckers.
But can I prove it in a way that someone who clings to belief in ancient stories will have to admit to being mistaken? No. I never claimed to.
- “OK, fine. [The wet street is] most likely due to the most proximate *natural* cause. Rain, melting snow, whatever. We don’t normally invoke the miraculous to explain the natural.” You *completely* miss my point. And I am sorry, but (following here your red herring for the sake of discussion) as a Christian I most certainly do regularly invoke the “miraculous” to explain the natural. Now what?
I will assume we were talking earlier with differing ideas of what “miraculous” means. If you actually do mean that you regularly assume God is suspending the natural laws in order to do nothing more unusual than make the ground wet, I really do not know what to say.
- “Why don’t you start with a Creator?” You reply, “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.” Except if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”?
Nope. And you are just assuming that I do.
You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.
Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study. Science will never prove or disprove the existence of a Creator, because that’s simply not part of what it can examine.
- “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.
If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet.
Where is the fallacy?
- “When are you going to produce one shred of positive evidence for Creationism?” Don’t be silly. Look around. *Everything* is positive evidence for “creationism”.
And the big finish is … a cop-out.
If God created the Earth and all life in a short span of time, there are certain ways we would be able to confirm it. We’d find the remains of creatures at all levels of the geological strata, because they all lived at the same time. We’d find modern organisms mixed in with the extinct ones, for the same reason.
We don’t find that. We find fossilized creatures at different layers, and we find them consistently distributed that way. That’s evidence that they lived at different times, separated by millions of years.
Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time.
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#81 SteveG – “For all the criticisms of evolutionary theory that are flying around, when are the Creationists going to come up with any evidence at all for their view?”
For the thousandth time, the evidence is the same for creationists and evolutionists!
Billions of animals buried by water all over the earth indicates catastrophism. You don’t get fossils by animals just laying down and dying. But the evidence is there for all.
In this court of ideas we have eye witness testimony and circumstantial evidence. Testimony is not inferior because it is less scientific.
Creationists freely admit their belief is based on biblical revelation. Yet if science contradicted any of it, the testimony would be proven false. Materialists pretend to have the scientific high ground, but face the same challenge in proving their faith is true. This is why they always retreat to their old standby argument of ridicule.
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Theo #83 “There will be a point where mankind creates its own forms of life. Scientists will begin creating bacteria and then more and more complex organisms. How will Young Earth Creationists react to this?
So you’re asking what intelligent people designing something would indicate? Why, intelligent design of course.
To support evolution, new life forms would have to occur spontaneously for no particular reason.
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Pauline #102 I do not consider Genesis to be a scientific account of creation.
If it’s big Latin words you need, try the Vulgate. But do you believe that Genesis chapters 1-3 are true? If not, then does Christianity make any sense? Why send a Savior to reverse the curse if the premise is false?
Without a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Fall, there is no need for a literal Savior. Your faith would be vain (cf 1 Cor 15).
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Xion at 106:
For the thousandth time, the evidence is the same for creationists and evolutionists!
For the thousand and oneth time, no, it isn’t. Read on.
Billions of animals buried by water all over the earth indicates catastrophism. You don’t get fossils by animals just laying down and dying. But the evidence is there for all.
There is no evidence, none, of “billions of animals buried by water.” You get fossils by animals laying down and dying in certain types of sediment (not water), under certain conditions that preserve the bones long enough for the minerals in the sediment to replace the bone without destroying its form.
And there are probably not “billions” of fossils. If we’re lucky, there are a few hundred thousand, maybe only a few tens of thousands, remaining to be found.
Secondly, and more importantly really, if all life forms existed and died at the same time, we’d find them all mixed together. Dinosaurs and dogs next to each other. A modern tiger and wooly mammoth together. We don’t find that. We find that dinosaurs appear in some layers of the earth and mammoths in others. And we find that consistently. This is direct evidence that they lived at different times separated by a long span.
Creationists freely admit their belief is based on biblical revelation. Yet if science contradicted any of it, the testimony would be proven false.
Science DOES contradict it, and it HAS been proven false. But you are never going to see that because of what you say in #108 … your fragile theology won’t let you consider the possibility that scientists today may actually understand more about the way life works than some ancient nomads scribbling down their folk tales.
Xion (and Jeff), I’ve been in that position expressed in #108 and #99 too. When I was a Christian, I reached a point where I realized the truth of what you say. If there was not a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Fall, the traditional understanding of Christianity would not make sense.
The difference is, I decided to follow the facts wherever they led. You choose to refuse to even consider that you might be mistaken because you can’t bear the possibility that your whole faith system might need rethinking.
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Pauline – 102
So science trumps the Word of God?
You say it tells us what we need to know about God and ourselves, …… but it somehow is deficient as to God’s creation?
If Genesis gives such pertinent information about us, and you believe this……why do you believe it tells us about ourselves, but falls SHORT regarding CREATION?
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Because what it says about human nature is pretty clearly true now as then. What it says about Creation, in terms of how it happened, is contradicted by every observed fact.
Science trumps ancient myth, yes. Either your God inspired his human writers to write a story that that conveyed spiritual truth but not literal fact … or else your God planted false evidence in every field of human endeavor to trick us.
The first version is acceptable to many religious believers who don’t feel a need to sacrifice their intelligence in order to have faith. The second version should not be acceptable to anyone. There is no third version.
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Amended: If the God you believe in exists as you believe in Him, there is no third version.
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Let’s let Pauline answer, I’m sure she is more than capable STEVEG!
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I’m very eager to read her answer. She’s got some fascinating thoughts.
But it’s an open forum.
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Victoria,
You ask if “science trumps the Word of God”? No.
There is no conflict between what science discovers and God’s truth. However the Bible was not written with the purpose of explaining things from a scientific perspective. I know that your understanding of Biblical inerrancy means that whatever the Bible happens to comment on, from a scientific perspective, must be true. But as I’ve stated previously (on other threads at various times), I do not believe that accepting the Bible as true and authoritative requires a belief in inerrancy. My husband uses the word “infallible” for this position, which says that the Bible is true in what it teaches – but understands that it’s not trying to teach science.
You ask why I think Genesis “falls short regarding creation”? I don’t. It tells us what we need to know about creation – that God created it, and that He made it good (as opposed to the idea that the material world is somehow bad, and inferior to the spiritual world). I said that God told us what we need to know about creation – and I don’t consider the process by which all of creation happened to be something we need to know. Nothing wrong with trying to figure it out, but not something essential to our lives.
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Xion,
You say that without a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Fall, there is no need for a literal Savior. Not all Christians see it that way. As I said above, our sin problem is obvious. We do need a Savior.
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Pauline, #102, #116. There is no requirement to believe in a literal Adam or a literal creation for salvation. The requirement is only to place your faith in the literal Christ. But how much faith can you place in a liar? If the beginning of the Bible is not true, then Jesus was either a liar or a loon for quoting from it.
Christians should understand the depth and breadth and height of the gospel message (Eph 3:18), but it is not required. Only a grain of faith is required. However, people who choose to remain ignorant of the meaning of the gospel get their wish. You can talk about good news all you want, but it doesn’t make any sense without first acknowledging the bad news. If you aren’t in debt, it makes no sense for someone to pay your debt.
The Bible all holds together from beginning to end as a single unified message. There was a problem in the beginning that is resolved in the end. Over thousands of years God prepared a people, a place and a point in time to save us from the sin of Adam. The genealogies from Adam, the law, the history, the triumphs and trials all point to Christ’s payment for that sin. (Rom 5:14, 1 Cor 15:45). These verses won’t have meaning for people who refuse to understand what they mean.
The Bible teaches that God created all things good and that sin and death are a result of the Fall. Evolution teaches that creation created itself through disease and death.
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Yes, and Pauline, what about all of the NT references to Adam [inc. the ones that Xion has already mentioned]?
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Xion: God’s truth would not contradict what we see with our own eyes. Biblical Creationism does, whether you are willing to let yourself admit it or not.
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Wow, and I had always thought that Biblical creation confirms what we see with our own eyes.
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If you don’t trust one part of the bible, how will you pick out truth from the rest? Most likely in a relativistic, existential manner that ends up as a synthesis of what you like or what resonates with your perception of life. Reading both sides of the argument, you’d think God either lied in Genesis or lied through creation’s residual physical evidence.
When SteveG asserts that there is no evidence for creation, I assume he believes that the factual record cannot be harmonized with Genesis. The maligned AIG crowd believes in the literal interpretation of those first biblical chapters and attempts to decipher the scientific facts as if the Bible were true.
But can the “facts”, unadorned by a materialistic interpretation, be harmonized in a plausible way with scripture? I’m not asking for the most probable hypothesis for life, just a plausible reenactment of creation superintended by God that explains the bare facts while upholding scripture.
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So xion chooses to believe the magical instead of the empirical, for magical and not empirical reasons.
So goes the story of every single sun worshipper, idol maker, chicken entrail studying, hex casting, cargo cult pagan that ever lived.
You are just one of a long line of animal-men groveling in the mud at the feet of your own ignorance. You could be free of your bound allegiance to the image of yourself you have erected in the name of gods, but it is much more comforting to adopt someone elses story than determine your own narrative. This is the secret power of religion and politics, and I will agree, science. The difference lies in what may be seen and shown to be true, with reason as the guiding light. Those of you here who deny the enlightenment sure are fascinating creatures. I simply cannot understand the appeal of the shadows of the cave.
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#121 Xion is already doing that, as is Victoria.
The bible plainly states that the EARTH BROUGHT ANIMALS AND PLANTS FORTH. Not gods.
This is as plain a statement supporting evolutionary history of life as is possible to make from the bronze age narrative of the bible.
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Erasmus: In Gen 1:11, GOD SAID for the earth to bring forth vegetation; in Gen 1:24 GOD SAID for the earth to bring forth living creatures, and Gen 1:25 says that HE made those living creatures. Nice try.
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Norm P. at #121: When SteveG asserts that there is no evidence for creation, I assume he believes that the factual record cannot be harmonized with Genesis.
Right.
The maligned AIG crowd believes in the literal interpretation of those first biblical chapters and attempts to decipher the scientific facts as if the Bible were true.
AIG and the ICR are rightly maligned because they don’t attempt to decipher the scientific facts so much as they attempt to spread misinformation and confusion about what the facts are. They represent about as blatant a case of “lying for Jesus” as there is.
But can the “facts”, unadorned by a materialistic interpretation, be harmonized in a plausible way with scripture?
Not in a literal way. But there are many devout religious people, Pauline being one example, who don’t seem troubled by the need to take Genesis non-literally.
Xion, Outkast, Victoria and Tychicus have revealed that they are not even able to objectively consider the evidence because they believe their very salvation hangs on their believing Genesis literally. There’s an old saying: “You can’t convince a person to believe something if his livelihood depends on his not believing it.” How much more true that is if you live in fear of going to hell for allowing yourself to consider the ancient Scripture might not accord with new knowledge.
Too much is made of the “materialistic interpretation” you mention. Science operates on the principle that if natural laws and processes can explain a phenomenon, then that is the explanation. We know moisture accumulates in the air and when enough of it has gathered, it falls to the ground as rain. We don’t need to wonder if somehow God is miraculously making it rain. Even most Christians would not argue that that’s something that needs to be considered.
That’s all the materialistic interpretation means. The supernatural is not something science can disprove, or even would try to. That is a question beyond its grasp. We can understand a great deal about how life works, and how it has developed over time. Whether or not God created it is a matter of faith, not science.
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SteveG #109:
“For the thousandth time, the evidence is the same for creationists and evolutionists!” “For the thousand and oneth time, no, it isn’t.”
For the thousand and twoth of time … it must be! The alternative is not possible.
Apparently you don’t know the meaning of the word evidence. In a court of law, the physical evidence is on display for all to see. Fossil evidence, DNA evidence, etc. are all undeniable, indisputable. They can be handled and examined. How could either side of the debate deny any of this evidence? It is not possible short of insanity.
“The difference is, I decided to follow the facts wherever they led. You choose to refuse to even consider that you might be mistaken because you can’t bear the possibility that your whole faith system might need rethinking.”
No, you’ve simply traded one faith for another. Your doctrine now consists of popular mythology. You have become comfortable with tautology like “every organism that exists is a transitional form because life is always undergoing changes.” In other words, transitional forms exist because they are transitional. Going with the crowd has become more important than critical thinking.
I have stated many times that truth is more important than religion. If evolution were true I would embrace it. I have been researching it for decades and have found it to be just an elaborate set of interesting circular arguments. No one has proven it true or false. To me, the biblical point of view is easier to believe.
It takes far less faith in my opinion to believe that created things have a creator, than some fairy tale about the kiss of time turning frogs into princes.
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Xion at #126:
Apparently you don’t know the meaning of the word evidence. In a court of law, the physical evidence is on display for all to see. Fossil evidence, DNA evidence, etc. are all undeniable, indisputable. They can be handled and examined. How could either side of the debate deny any of this evidence? It is not possible short of insanity.
Right. The facts are the same. The facts do support the evolutionary view of the development of life on Earth. The facts do not support the sudden-creation view of life on Earth.
I can’t put it any simpler than that.
In a court of law, one piece of evidence might be a letter the defendant wrote to his brother two weeks before the murder, ranting about how much he hates the victim and detailing his plan for killing him. The defense attorney arguing that the defendant never had a malicious thought toward the victim is not going to find support in that piece of evidence.
The evidence is the same for both sides in terms of its existence. It is NOT the same for both sides in terms of how well it supports their respective arguments.
However, if the defense attorney takes your approach, he’ll just deny the letter even exists because his belief depends on not letting himself consider it.
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I have stated many times that truth is more important than religion. If evolution were true I would embrace it. I have been researching it for decades and have found it to be just an elaborate set of interesting circular arguments. No one has proven it true or false. To me, the biblical point of view is easier to believe.
Define what you mean by “proven.”
As I’ve stated several times now, science doesn’t deal in proof. It deals in probability. If we know certain facts, we can theorize the most probable principle that explains those facts. As more facts come in, they will tend to confirm or challenge the theory. Science will refine the theory as needed to accommodate the facts, or if it can’t, it will reject the theory.
Germs cause disease. Nobody really doubts that anymore, but it’s still called the “germ theory of disease” because it’s an explanation for the observed phenomena.
Evolution explains the development of life. It is not circular, but it does depend to some extent on inference. As more information has come in in the 150 or so years since Darwin first articulated it, the theory has been modified as needed, but nothing has been discovered to date that seriously challenges its general correctness. The need for inference has diminished considerably as more of the information gaps have been filled.
However, it will never be proved to the point that it will convince someone who is unwilling to accept it. You could still choose to believe thet disease is caused by evil spirits if you want to. Some people still do, but that doesn’t mean the germ theory is wrong.
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#122 Erasmus So xion chooses to believe the magical instead of the empirical, for magical and not empirical reasons.
I am surprised that you are not glad at least for my consistency. I simply ask Christians to embrace the whole enchilada instead of using weasel words and back peddling. For this you should thank me. Life is magical in a sense — too bad you can’t see it.
Too bad you don’t appreciate how fantastic your own fairy tale is. Animation of the inanimate, frogs becoming princes, pond scum becoming cab drivers — all for no particular reason. That’s quite a big burrito to swallow.
Why not use that dizzying intellect of yours (so says you) to engage in actual debate rather than sophomoric jabs at the wind. Quoting Plato impresses only you, especially since you are so easily distracted with the shadows dancing on the inside of your eyelids.
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whole enchilada … big burrito .. about time for lunch, Xion?
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SteveG #127 I mostly agreed with you right up to that last paragraph. Facts are facts. The facts are the same for both sides. That’s my point and you agree. Great!
How well the facts support the case is a separate issue. You have one opinion. I have another. But neither of us deny the evidence. Therefore your last statement is FALSE and denies what you had just agreed to.
Obviously, it is just an insult, which is pretty much what every evolutionist does when cornered. This simply exposes how little confidence you have in your own faith.
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I have to go, but I had one more point for Theo #83:
As it stands today, mankind has not created life. Someday we may. But for now, the only thing that has successfully created life according to materialists is dirt. All living things came from stardust we are told.
So if man has not yet created life, but dirt has, then wouldn’t that make us dumber than dirt?
Something to think about …
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I’m in the mood for Mexican food for some reason …
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Xion at #131: Obviously, it is just an insult, which is pretty much what every evolutionist does when cornered. This simply exposes how little confidence you have in your own faith.
It is frustrating trying to talk about science and facts with people who avowedly are unwilling to even consider the possibility that they might be mistaken — not because of the facts but because their already-chosen faith system tells them they should not.
In #126 you say you studied evolution extensively before rejecting it. But earlier, in #117, you argued for the necessity to believe the whole Bible literally in order for your Christian faith to make sense. Those two positions seem to be at cross-purposes. (No pun intended.)
You say in #117: There is no requirement to believe in a literal Adam or a literal creation for salvation. The requirement is only to place your faith in the literal Christ. But how much faith can you place in a liar? If the beginning of the Bible is not true, then Jesus was either a liar or a loon for quoting from it.
That may be true (I think it’s rather uncharitable toward Jesus, but nevertheless) … but if the observed facts of the real world show the beginning of the Bible to not be literally true, what then?
You are left with only a couple of options. You can, as atheists do, decide the whole thing is ancient myth that we moderns don’t have to give a thought to.
Or you can, as fundamentalists do, refuse to acknowledge the observed facts of the real world in order to cling to literal belief in a myth. (Which usually entails insisting that the facts are something other than they are, which is what I think you are doing when you characterize evolution as “pond scum turning into taxi drivers for no reason.”)
Or you can, as Pauline and many other Christians and other religious people do, choose to read the Genesis story as the kind of “true myth” that imparts an important spiritual truth without needing to be taken as literal history.
You seem to me to be taking that second option of the three. But please, do correct me if I’m wrong.
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SteveG #128 was nicely stated. I can’t ignore such a reasonable discussion.
Define what you mean by “proven.”
Well, prove that hippos and whales have a common ancestor. Prove that apes and man have a common ancestor. Grouping fossils into an artificial progression that fits a preconceived result doesn’t do it for me.
“Evolution explains the development of life. It is not circular, but it does depend to some extent on inference.”
The evolutionary story is based entirely on inference and some of those inferences are circular. You claim that the transitional continuum is transitional because it is. Fossils are dated primarily by the layer they are found in and the layers are dated primarily by the fossils they contain. Etc.
Now I’ve really got to go. Hit me with your best shot …
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Xion at #135: Well, prove that hippos and whales have a common ancestor. Prove that apes and man have a common ancestor. Grouping fossils into an artificial progression that fits a preconceived result doesn’t do it for me.
And what would do it for you? I suspect nothing would be enough.
There are others far better qualified than I am to undertake this challenge, but briefly, it is possible to trace similarities in bone structure, features in the genetic sequence and other characteristics back through time.
Here’s one example. Most mammals are able to manufacture their own vitamin C. There is a specific gene that causes this to happen. Humans and chimpanzees cannot. Our version of the gene is non-functional, but we do have it.
From an evolutionary point of view, this does two things. It suggests that at some point before the emergence of chimpanzees and humans from common ancestor, the gene stopped functioning as it should. As the progeny gradually evolved down two separate paths, one leading to us and one to chimps, the non-functioning gene was passed on.
It also means that evolutionary theory has made a correct prediction (one of the ways scientific theories are tested.) Knowing that it’s rare for genes to actually be deleted from an established sequence, researchers expected to find a non-functioning version. And that is what they found.
The Creationist has to argue that God deliberately created both humans and chimps with a useless version of a gene that is perfectly useful in most other mammals.
God certainly could have done that, but what sense would it make?
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Proof for you does not exist Xion because anything that does not fit your narrowly interpreted version of the bible must be false. But beyond any reasonable doubt, the molecular phylogenies constructed from the DNA evidence do lend a massive amount of confirmation to the theories derived from the study of morphology biogeography ecology life history and behavior alone.
It is consilient.
You have no explanation for this result. That is telling.
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Further, to deny dating methods you deny nuclear physics.
Sounds like you have been influenced by Feyerabend as well. Very well my postmodernist in fundie disguise, science is all a narrative and each is as good or as true as the other. We all have the same evidence, just different interpretations, and one interpretation is as good as the other and there is no method for parsing different interpretations with respect to truth content.
I am fascinated by this view. Compartmentalizing, cognitive dissonance, the whole ball of wax. Love ya mean it.
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Pauline – 115
Is your belief /theistic evolution?
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#121 “If you don’t trust one part of the bible, how will you pick out truth from the rest? Most likely in a relativistic, existential manner that ends up as a synthesis of what you like or what resonates with your perception of life.”
Norm P,
I would guess you and I mean something different about what it means to trust the Bible. I don’t like to guess at what someone else means, but from your comment #121 you seem to think I don’t trust Genesis 1. I don’t think the purpose of Genesis 1 is to teach the process by which God created all things, but the fact that He did, and that He called them good. I trust that. I do not consider my skepticism regarding the traditional six 24-hour day creation to be distrusting the Biblical account, because I don’t think that is the point of the passage.
If I were to go through the Bible and pick out the parts that I like, as you seem to suggest in #121, I would probably choose Jesus’ humanity over divinity, human free will over God’s sovereignty, and dismiss a lot of other passages and doctrines that are unpleasant or difficult to understand. I would most likely end up with beliefs much like the liberal UCC church I grew up in.
As for “what resonates with [my] perception of life,” I don’t see how that is avoidable. How could I honestly believe something that runs counter to what I know of myself and other people and life in general? That is why I left the UCC church and became a Christian. I had been brought up to believe that people were by nature good, and that “sin” was really just immaturity, not evil to be judged by God. But I looked at myself and I saw sin, and the church I had grown up in gave me no answers on what to do about it.
I went to a fundamentalist church, where I heard the Gospel for the first time, how Jesus died for my sins, and how I could be a new person through faith in Him, and I trusted in Jesus as my Savior.
#117 “However, people who choose to remain ignorant of the meaning of the gospel get their wish. You can talk about good news all you want, but it doesn’t make any sense without first acknowledging the bad news. If you aren’t in debt, it makes no sense for someone to pay your debt.”
Xion,
I am not ignorant of the meaning of the Gospel. I came to Christ because I knew the “bad news” although I had not been taught it in church, and did not think of it in terms of having inherited Adam’s sin nature. I have since studied theology, both formally and informally, including various views of the atonement (of which Jesus paying our debt is one). And I am not convinced that the genuine need for a literal Savior requires that there have been a literal Adam, although I am not dismissing the possibility – simply allowing the possibility that there was not.
#139
Victoria,
I consider theistic evolution a possibility, as I consider direct creation a possibility. As far as I can tell either could explain the world we find ourselves in today, and either would be consistent with belief in a Creator. I do not see a need to figure it out for sure.
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Pauline – 140
So are you saying that you believe in evolution as a possibility, and creation being another possibility? If you believe in evolution in any form, then the creation by GOD of earth and everything in it, becomes false? Do you believe that Genesis is false?
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Victoria, Francis Collins, the evangelical Christian scientist argues in The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief that one can accept the fundamental truth of Genesis and, also, accept the science of evolution. He basically argues from the view of theistic evolution that God created an evolutionary process for the various forms of life.
Collins, the head of the International Genome Project, has become convinced about evolution through his study of the genome, while at the same time he believes strongly that the complexity, bauty, and goodness of life could only exist through the very same Creator of Genesis.
Genesis was not written as a scientific treatise. It is a brilliant and profound basically poetic conception of God’s creation that is not at all contradicted by Darwin’s theory of evolution.
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By your statement you are saying that you believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution, if not then you are doing nothing more than playing a scrambled mix, which has no basis, but in fact is nothing more than gibberish.
So then Genesis is poetic, as you see it? If you believe this then why believe the rest of the OT, or for that matter the ‘Great Flood’ then you could also add Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot.
If God isn’t able to create the World just as the Bible says HE did, how can you believe that Jesus is the Savior? You can tear the whole Bible and Scripture from limb to limb, that’s what many are now doing.
Satan must be having a real barn dance watching this unfold amongst those who purport to be Evangelical.
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I got Collins’ Language of God for Christmas and read it. He’s passionate about his Christian belief while disbelieving Genesis and Jonah. I appreciate his sincerity but how do you know what to believe with the rest of the bible. And why would God muddle it. Granted, God could have used some degree of evolution to bring life to earth, but not to the extent or order that a Darwinist persists is absolute truth. Either there’s some plausible explanation that harmonizes Genesis with the bare facts or the alternate is to turn to SteveG’s deism. If Genesis is untrustworthy, why not argue the truthfulness of every other scriptural tenet, including the means of grace, which – by the way – are being challenged somewhat by the New Perspectives on Paul.
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Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:4
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
Isaiah 44
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hebrews 11:3
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#141 “So are you saying that you believe in evolution as a possibility, and creation being another possibility? If you believe in evolution in any form, then the creation by GOD of earth and everything in it, becomes false? Do you believe that Genesis is false?”
Victoria,
You are asking me about evolution vs. creation, but that is not what I said. I said “direct creation” is a possibility. In discussions of evolution vs creationism, “direct creation” is generally used to refer to God creating each species directly, rather than it having developed from another species.
I do believe in creation. I believe God created everything. The question is whether he used natural processes to do some of it. (The initial creation of something from nothing could only be by His miraculous power.)
So to answer your last question, no. I do not believe Genesis is false. I consider it a false dichotomy to say that the only choices are either young earth creationism or Genesis is false. I would say that it is true but not scientifically accurate, as that was not its purpose.
Norm P.,
I don’t think that “God muddled it.” God used people to write the Bible, people who wrote according to the literary standards of their time. Those standards are different from our own, and did not include the concern for factual accuracy in peripheral details. Examples in the Gospels include cases where the order of events may have been modified, parts of two events told as one, or other aspects of the narrative that did not change the point of what was being taught.
According to Lee Strobel’s A Case for Christ, up to around 40% of a story could be modified by the storyteller, so long as he maintained the central points and crucial details, and he would not be considered to have made the story untrue. And that matches up with the kind of variation seen in the Gospels. Which day something occurred, how many people were present, etc. were details that could be changed. The point of the story – the miracle Jesus did or the teaching he gave – was the central part that remained the same.
That approach does not make Scripture untrustworthy, in my opinion. If the point is to teach that Jesus had to power to cast out demons, to calm the storm, and that He told us we must take up our cross and follow Him, that point is clear regardless of other details in the account. It doesn’t mean we can pick and choose whether we think we have to take up our cross and follow Him, or whether He rose from the dead. Or whether God created us and we belong to Him.
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Victoria, I believe in the essential truth or Word of the Bible, especially that we live in a created rather than randomly evolved universe. However, given the truth of well proved science I don’t believe that the universe was created in six days. More likely the time and space that we know was create by an eternal God who exists beyond time and space. As I undestand it the Hebrew word for “day” could be interpreted variously as twenty-four hours or an eon.
Back in the Seventeenth Century the Catholic Church condemned Galileo for his heliocentric as opposed to the geocentric view. We now know that Galileo was right and that this doesn’t in slightest diminish our view of Creation. Back in the time of Darwin Asa Gray, a devout Christian American biologist, had no problem accepting Darwin’s theory of evolution, as he understood that our Creator was behind this process.
We need to distinguish between evolution, which is a credible empirically based theory, and Darwinism, which the atheists including Steve G and Erasmus claim supports the rather implausible notion that life forms are created by some naturalistic or materialistic form of natural selection by random variation. This blatant myth is quite implausible though it supports their conveniently absurd notion that humans are mere animals with complete moral and pelvic freedom.
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We need to distinguish between evolution, which is a credible empirically based theory, and Darwinism, which the atheists including Steve G and Erasmus claim supports the rather implausible notion that life forms are created by some naturalistic or materialistic form of natural selection by random variation.</i<
Whoa there bucko. I’m not an atheist.
And I am getting a little tired of people assuming I am, as if the only possible options are evangelical Christian or atheist.
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Norm P. at #144: I appreciate his sincerity but how do you know what to believe with the rest of the bible.
That’s precisely why Outkast and some others here are afraid to even look. Because they know (and it is true) that if you don’t insist the Bible is literally true in every regard, you do open the door to those kind of questions.
However, as Francis Collins, Pauline and many many other people demonstrate, opening the door to asking those questions does not automatically mean abandoning the faith. And seriously, if your faith is so fragile that it can’t stand up to questioning, is it really something you want to hang your hat on?
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#147: This blatant myth is quite implausible though it supports their conveniently absurd notion that humans are mere animals with complete moral and pelvic freedom.
again you go with the pelvis.
It would be nice if you would actually bother to understand the points being made before taking issue with them.
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SteveG at #105:
You wrote: “By “miraculous,” I do not mean “caused by God” in a general sense that God is the author of all things. I mean caused by God’s deliberate suspension of natural laws to do something that would normally violate them.”
I do not believe there are any such things as a natural laws as you apparently intend them. I do believe that “anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace” is ultimately caused by God’s deliberate action. I also believe that God keeps His word. This is what makes science possible. You admitted that of course if I bring God into this debate, then homologies can’t be said to be necessary proof of common descent. But you complained that then God can be seen *everywhere*. I answered that this precisely is the position you want to attack. So quit complaining about what your opponents actually believe, quit misrepresenting them, and deal with their arguments.
“Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)”
I have no idea from what pocket you have drawn these natural laws, but of course it must be a trick. I deny your concept of natural laws. I do believe that as a rule God faithfully does things in predictable ways. On what grounds do you believe there are such things as natural laws?
“If so (and I am not assuming agreement, that is why I ask), then when we observe a natural phenomenon, we assume that it is part of the natural laws.”
You do? I don’t. How do you account for the existence of natural laws?
“We see the sun rise and we know it is because the Earth’s rotation is bringing our part of the world into the sunlight. We don’t need to spend a minute wondering if this particular sunrise is somehow caused by God suspending the natural laws to do something miraculous.”
How do you know there is a natural law governing sunrise?
“When the trees begin to sprout new leaves in the Spring, we know it is because that is what trees do as part of their natural life cycle. We don’t need to debate whether God is suspending the natural laws and making it happen.”
Sorry, no neutral nor common ground here either. I don’t believe there are any natural laws governing tree growth. I do believe God makes trees grow. How do you know there are natural laws governing tree growth?
“I am not quite sure what you mean by “covenant-breaking idol,” so please elaborate.”
Sure. Here goes. You wrote somewhere: “it’s legitimate to tell people they don’t understand the theory [of evolution] if they’re repeatedly demanding to be shown something the theory never said would be there and refusing to accept that they have a mistaken expectation.” Now before you give Christians this piece of advice about the theory of evolution, you would do well to avoid writing stuff like this: “Once you start bringing a God who can and does disrupt the natural laws at his whim, you can claim anything. . . Once you start positing a God who can do anything he wants, then nothing is evidence of anything.” I didn’t bring and I didn’t posit. Sorry the God I believe in is different from what you would like Him to be. The God you describe does not exist. The true God is a covenant-keeping God, who promises continuity and uniformity in nature, and whose Word is sure and trustable.
SteveG: “Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened.”
ASaltyDog: “That, my friend, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, is a logical fallacy.”
SteveG: “Huh? How? It’s a logical fallacy to assume the workings of a known cause when we see the effect that the known cause causes? So let me get this straight . . . I don’t follow your reasoning here at all.”
No hope you’ll ever get this (or concede this) any time soon, evidently. But yes, it is a blatant, obvious, really bad logical fallacy, that is absolutely devastating to your argument here.
You said, “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.” If so, I asked, in case you maybe see the light, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent? Your appalling answer: “Common descent is the linchpin of evolutionary theory. Ultimately, all life comes through it. But in any single example where two organisms have similar adaptive measures, there may or may not be a direct line of descent between them.”
Wow Steve, you hang yourself and you don’t even notice it. Please don’t tell me you don’t see that you are left with no argument for evolution based on homology?
“Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof.”
This is not how you speak when not challenged in this way. Or aren’t you the same guy who wrote, “Science DOES contradict [biblical revelation], and it HAS been proven false.” So can you or can you not prove common descent? If you can, isn’t that unscientific? And if you cannot, what’s wrong with being a creationist?
“People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.”
Cheap shot. Watch this: “People who prefer to believe in evolution probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 6000 years, and probably not even then.”
“If you actually do mean that you regularly assume God is suspending the natural laws in order to do nothing more unusual than make the ground wet, I really do not know what to say. ”
There are no natural laws. There is God, and he has habits of doing things in certain ways.
I asked you, “Why don’t you start with a Creator?” You replied, “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.” Except, I asked, if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”? Now you answer, “Nope. And you are just assuming that I do. You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.”
Yeah, right. When have you seen natural laws the last time?
“Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study.”
Wow. And tell me, how does science get to know what the natural laws are in order to get the whole thing started?
You said, “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” I replied, “Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.” Again baffled, you wrote, “If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet. Where is the fallacy?”
Steve, you need to study basic concepts in logic, fast. Google for “affirming the consequent”. Then you’ll find you didn’t need to learn it — you are already a master of it.
“We find fossilized creatures at different layers, and we find them consistently distributed that way. That’s evidence that they lived at different times, separated by millions of years.”
This is one great example of your skill, kindof. If animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years, we would find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Now we DO find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Therefore these animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years. This may be the way evolutionists like to fool themselves into thinking they are whipping biblical creationism big time, but they are only exposing to the world their logical illiteracy.
And finally, you ask: “Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time.”
Easy: the zoological, historical, and soteriological implications of the biblical revelation. In short, if dinosaurs and dogs didn’t live at the same time, I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, so therefore dinosaurs and dogs must have lived at the same time. Now my turn. Find me one shred of evidence that penguins and giraffes share the same habitat.
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Peter Leavitt – 147
With that idea in mind, do you believe God could have created everything in 6 literal days?
Christ arose after three days, could that then mean it was 3 weeks, or three years?
Scripture says in Acts 1:1-5 that Christ Jesus spent 40 days with his disciples, could that then mean 40 months?
Do you think God wanted to mix us up?
Do you think God was/is able to preserve HIS Word so that we would have EXACTLY what HE wanted us to have, or do you think HE wanted to confound and confuse us?
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
30 So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20 NOTICE: the passage in Exodus . . . can there be some doubt to this Scripture as to days, hours, ETC., Is the sabbath a 24 hour day, or is it to last “eons”?
Do you believe that GOD Almighty making His Word available to us, could keep it pure until the LORD returns?
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Salty Dog … wow .. no natural laws, huh? Rain happens because God makes it happen every time, not because there are observable and consistent natural processes that cause moisture to evaporate, condense and fall?
Well, there’s no point in continuing then, since we don’t agree on even the most uncontroversial aspects of reality.
Just curious … before you got saved, did you take a lot of hallucinogenic drugs?
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SteveG Whoa there bucko. I’m not an atheist. Well then just what are you? Though your fundamental views are rather opaque, just about everything you write supports either hard atheism or at the least vague agnosticism.
Victoria, you need to understand that theistic evolution in the context of Creation is a quite compelling view held by many devout Christian scientists. The evidence for evolution is very credible. He, also, writes that the views of young earth creationists, however sincere, cannot be squared with either geological or genetic evidence; further that such a view makes Christians look foolish, just as the Catholic view of Galileo did in an earlier time. Christians who hold to archaic views in the face of convincing evidence are an embarrassment to their religion which places great value on Truth as opposed to narrow minded Fideism. Again Genesis is profound religious poetry and was never intended in the modern sense as a scientific treatise.
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In the above I meant that Collins also writes.
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Peter – 154
Peter, it would depend on whom you prefer to listen to. There are scientists who would not agree with evolution, and the reason is ‘THEY REALLY ARE BELIEVERS’ they aren’t trying to subvert God’s Word.
Interesting that you believe “fideism” which in essence means “faith” is “narrow minded. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Has GOD come down and told you that Genesis is nothing but “religious poetry” ? I believe NOT!
We find much in Genesis, …. Jacob, the 12 tribes of Israel, I suppose you believe that is nothing but “profound religious poetry” as well? Or is it a ‘pick and choose routine’ one that suits particular scientists, or some parts of Scripture that can pass, as they and YOU have decided it’s a ‘clean house’ sort of thing with Genesis?
The embarrassment to the Evangelical Church, are those who hold to evolution and disregard the Word of God, don’t believe the Word, they don’t have “faith” in what it says- Instead, they follow the latest ’so called Christian’ who speaks another ‘message’ as in ’science’ . . it truly is their god …….. one who would, by any crafty way, misdirect the Believers from God’s Word.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15
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Peter, you didn’t bother to answer the questions in post 152, WHY?
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Victoria, Christians, believing in God’s Truth, should welcome it above all from the Bible, though, also, from any source including that of modern science. There is nothing in the Bible that limits the truth to that book in itself. Western Civilization is based symbolically on both Jerusalem and Athens, or on both faith and reason.
I should suggest that you get a hold of Francis Collins’ book The Language of God. and read it carefully. He is fully as devout a Christian as you are and presents compelling arguments for the truth of both evolution and Genesis.
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Peter you still aren’t able to answer the questions is post 152.
Remember the verses in Exodus. Check out Exodus 20 and 31, does that mean we consider this nothing more than “religious poetry” as you quoted earlier, regarding Genesis. We have a problem now, we need to decide what to do with Exodus – so far we have Genesis and Exodus. That must be nothing but “religious poetry” according to you, and who told you this, did GOD?
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Exodus 31:17
So again, we have six days in Exodus 31…..or was that six thousand years for each day, give or take a thousand?
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#154: SteveG Whoa there bucko. I’m not an atheist. Well then just what are you? Though your fundamental views are rather opaque, just about everything you write supports either hard atheism or at the least vague agnosticism.
I generally call myself a deist, but in truth I don’t think I fit into any neat label. I believe God exists and I believe God created everything, but I also believe he did it by creating natural laws and forces that we can discover and understand, rather than by ongoing direct intervention.
I believe God can intervene in the world, but I doubt he does very often.
I believe God revealed what we need to know in the universe itself and in the human sense of morality. I don’t discount the possibility of special revelation, but I think special revelation applies to the people it’s revealed to and not to everyone … the things that we all need to know are in the general revelation I described.
We need to distinguish between evolution, which is a credible empirically based theory, and Darwinism, which the atheists including Steve G and Erasmus claim supports the rather implausible notion that life forms are created by some naturalistic or materialistic form of natural selection by random variation. This blatant myth is quite implausible though it supports their conveniently absurd notion that humans are mere animals with complete moral and pelvic freedom.
This is where you lose me. In speaking of Collins’ book, you seem to accept evolution, but here you speak of evolution and “Darwinism” as if they were different things. If you understand Collins, you know that natural selection operating on random variation is exactly how evolution works.
So I don’t understand how you seem to both accept and reject evolution in the same breath.
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and I also think your obsession with “pelvic freedom,” while a nice turn of phrase, is misplaced.
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STEVEG,
I rarely agree with you BUT: as you POST…”So I don’t understand how you seem to both accept and reject evolution in the same breath.”
It appears to be a ‘created evolutionary malt’-
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I’d like to know what makes SteveG think he’s a “former Christian.”
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Are you suggesting that I still am, or that I never was?
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I am beginning to wonder how many true Born Again Believers are posting on this thread, not to mention this blog.
There are RED FLAGS, and those who are truly Born Again know what they are.
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victoria been there done that took forever to get the smell out.
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Victoria: Concerning the length of the days of Creation, there is a clue in what the Genesis text says about the third day [Gen 1:11-13]. We know how long it takes for fruit trees to grow and bear fruit. So unless we should imagine that happening as in time-lapse photography, then it most likely took much longer than twenty-four hours.
In addition, how can the seventh day be a literal twenty-four-hour time period if it represents God’s Sabbath rest from Creation that still continues today? We are actually living in the seventh day.
At any rate, Christians have a variety of viewpoints on this issue, and it’s not essential to salvation. Please don’t judge whether Christians are born again based on this issue.
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Tychicus
Literal is just what a day means, be it a six day week in which we work, or one day in which we observe the Sabbath, its a day. We observe one day a week for Sabbath, and work six days.
God isn’t a God of confusion as some would like to make it.
The Word of God is either true, or it isn’t, you cannot take one Book like Genesis, and say it is “religious poetry” . . . you are left with Exodus. When anyone tries to tear down the Word of God, I question their belief in Jesus Christ.
What does the Bible say about those who claim to be Believers? Are we to judge those within, or those without?
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I guess the Morning & Evening descriptors can be taken as poetic, but it seems to indicate a single day. I have trouble harmonizing the time sequence between Genesis 1 and 2. In the second chapter, God creates man “when no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up” (vs. 2:5). Perhaps the creation in chapter 1 was in seed form alone?
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See how a discussion about (supposedly) real events suddenly becomes foolishly impaired by trying to decipher the words of bronze age goatherders?
It was pretty simple for me. It’s obvious genesis is bunk, and as some of you have noted that makes the rest of the story bunk. Or at least less authoritate than most christianists claim. Jesus referenced Duh Flud, and I can see that the biblical version of that story never happened. Resolution: God-beasts either don’t know everything or it is all made up. Jesus referenced Adam, a person who likely never existed and at the very least never existed in the way he is described in Genesis (as the first man on earth). Resolution: God-beasts either don’t know everything (contrary to claim) or it is all made up.
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Erasmus: It seems that you’ve already had a few too many too early on a Sunday morning – just lie down for awhile, then come back and talk sense..
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While Erasmus’s language in #170 is harsher than it needs to be, the point is right on target.
Here we see poor Norm P. in #169 struggling to harmonize a clear contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. Genesis 1 says that the earth brought forth vegetation on the third day and God created man on the sixth day. Genesis 2 says clearly that when God made man, no plants had yet come from the earth .
(Not to mention that Genesis 1 says that God created man and woman at the same time, while Genesis 2 says that Adam had to review all the animals first to see if there was already a suitable helper available, before God had the idea to create a woman.)
If you don’t insist on taking the Bible literally, this presents no problem at all, neither scientific or theological. Each account imparts specific theological ideas and the fact that they don’t easily harmonize isn’t an issue. Whether you’re a Christian who believes the theology, or a non-Christian who is interested in understanding the message while not feeling bound to believe it, a non-literal reading works well.
But if you are a literalist, then you have to come up with ideas like, maybe Genesis 1 just refers to seeds (even though it vividly describes the plants coming forth out of the ground), or maybe Genesis 1 tells a condensed version of the creation of man and woman while Genesis 2 goes into more detail (and let’s not notice that it also shows God as actually thinking one of the “beasts of the field” might be adequate before seeing the need to create woman.)
Incidentally, this is not a new debate. Jewish and Christians theologians have always held different views on just how literally the Genesis account was to be taken. Origen, who lived from about AD 185 to 254 and remains one of the most respected scholars of the early church, wrote:
What intelligent person will suppose that there was a first, a second and a third day, that there was evening and morning without the existence of the sun and moon and stars? Or that there was a first day without a sky? Who could be so silly as to think that God planted a paradise in Eden in the East the way a human gardener does, and that he made in this garden a visible and palpable tree of life, so that by tasting its fruit with one’s bodily teeth one should receive life? And in the same way, that someone could partake of good and evil by chewing what was taken from this tree? If God is represented as walking in the garden in the evening, or Adam as hiding under the tree, I do not think anyone can doubt that these things, by means of a story which did not in fact materially occur, are intended to express certain mysteries in a metaphorical way. (De Principiis IV, 3, 1)
In about AD 408, St. Augustine wrote:
It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation. (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])
So Biblical literalists are not even fighting for the “traditional” way of reading Scripture. They just apparently lack the imagination or the courage to think outside of the narrow definitions that literalism affords them.
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SteveG at #153:
He wrote:
“Salty Dog … wow .. no natural laws, huh? Rain happens because God makes it happen every time, not because there are observable and consistent natural processes that cause moisture to evaporate, condense and fall? Well, there’s no point in continuing then, since we don’t agree on even the most uncontroversial aspects of reality. Just curious … before you got saved, did you take a lot of hallucinogenic drugs?”
Hear, hear! Now get this folks.
SteveG, the ever-whining Deist, refuses to debate me, a classical Reformed Christian, because he complains that I am not a Deist. SteveG is prepared to debate evolutionism vs. creationism only with people who have already abandoned the biblical doctrine of God’s sovereignty, and have embraced a deistic view of nature. And if someone is not a Deist, he must be a drug addict, because Deism is “uncontroversial”. Some people really need to get out more. And although it’s a mortal sin to misrepresent and ignore the Theory of Evolution, on the other hand misrepresenting Christians, refusing to answer their questions, and dismissing them as crazy clowns is okay, if it helps diverting attention while he tries to make a quiet escape.
Yes, folks, this is the very same guy who has just accused Christians of lacking courage (#172). This is the very same guy who wrote: “I decided to follow the facts wherever they led.” (#109)
Well, it turns out the facts led him to run for his life. The backdoor is over there, SteveG. Pack your things, and you may safely sneak away from there. How unobserved, though, I really can’t say. Farewell.
I rest my case.
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Salty Dog: Most Christians understand that for the most part, things in nature happen because the natural laws the govern nature cause them to happen. When you drop your keys in the parking lot, they fall to the ground because of gravity, not because God catches them and pulls them to the ground.
Most Christians believe that God intervenes in the world at specific times for specific reasons, not everytime anything happens at all.
This has nothing to do with “Deism,” it has to do with understanding reality. Things happen in nature because the laws of nature — whether they are divinely decreed laws or just happenstance — work in predictable and observable ways. If you drop your keys in the parking lot and instead of falling to ground they hang there in mid-air waiting for you to retrieve them, then you might have an instance where God intervened. If they fall, it’s because of gravity.
If you are not able to agree to even this uncontroversial idea, then either you are playing some sort of game, or you are living in a very different reality than the rest of us.
Either way, we have no common ground to discuss anything.
Don’t hold your breath waiting for me to “make a quiet escape,” however. I have no intention of going anywhere.
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Pauline and Peter Leavitt,
Here is question for theistic evolutionists (not sure if you are in this category, but perhaps you can answer this):
1. Please explain Rom 5:12-14 and 1 Cor 15:22 which says there was no death prior to Adam, according to Genesis 1-3.
2. How do you explain Jesus quoting from Genesis 3 (Matt 19:4, Mark 10:6)?
3. Please explain Christ’s genealogy that goes all the way back to Adam (Luke 3:38)?
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned … nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.” Rom 5:12,14
Someone who cannot or will not reconcile these verses can still be a Christian, however they will remain ignorant about the purpose for a Savior to come and triumph over death. They will remain ignorant of the full meaning of the resurrection: “O death where is thy sting! O grave where is thy victory”.
P.S. I don’t use the term ‘ignorant’ in a derogatory sense. I am simply saying that theistic evolutionists choose to ignore parts of the Bible that explain the purpose of Christianity’s most fundamental fact, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Note that the resurrection was bodily, therefore it is invalid to spiritualize this and say it wasn’t physical death.
Once again it is perfectly fine for Christians to disagree on these issues. I am not asking that we agree. However, I would like to hear your explanation.
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#172 SteveG “Genesis 2 says clearly that when God made man, no plants had yet come from the earth.”
No it doesn’t. You are making a false assumption that Gen 2 is chronological.
“(Not to mention that Genesis 1 says that God created man and woman at the same time”
No it doesn’t. If I say I made a sandwich and a drink, no one assumes they were made at precisely the same instant.
You are applying bogus interpretation that would be ludicrous even for everyday speech.
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SteveG: You may continue imagining that restating the dogmas of Deism “has nothing to do with Deism”, but I remain skeptical. I think I see a connection between the two things.
Uncontroversial, eh? I told you you need to get out more. Laws of nature? How do you know there are laws of nature? The law of gravity? How do you know, given your worldview, that there is a law of gravity? Wow, what a waste of breath. I need some sleep.
“Either way, we have no common ground to discuss anything.”
I get it, I already told you. Farewell then.
Folks, a prerequisite for being accepted to discuss creationism vs. evolutionism with SteveG is that you must abandon the biblical doctrine of God’s sovereignty and accept a deistic view of nature. Otherwise he will not only turn you down, he will also think you must be drug dealers or something. Perhaps he’ll call the police. Or mummy.
“Don’t hold your breath waiting for me to “make a quiet escape,” however. I have no intention of going anywhere.”
You already have. I am breathing normally. I won’t hold my breath waiting for you to come back and face me either.
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Xion, I accept Christ as the Jewish Messiah and as a personal savior. I accept the Bible as essentially though not in all parts the literal Word of God. It is a canon of documents written by fallen human beings under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. that the Catholic Church put together based on its view of the most holy Jewish and Christian documents in its possession.
The following from James Robbins of the Trinity Foundation on C.S. Lewis’ view of the Bible wouls be a fair short statement of my view:
…Nor did Lewis stop with these adjectives to describe what he called “Holy Scripture.” He wrote: “Naivety, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not ‘the Word of God’ in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history. It carries the Word of God….”11 Scripture is not the word of God; it “carries” the word of God. “It is Christ Himself,” Lewis said, “not the Bible, who is the true word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him.”12 The Bible is not the true word of God, according to Lewis. In order to lead us to Christ, it must be read in the right spirit (he did not tell us what that is) and with the guidance of good teachers. It does not speak for itself, but only through its interpreters. Somehow, when we least expect it but truly need it for our “spiritual life,” we will know “whether a particular passage is rightly translated or is myth (but of course myth specially chosen by God from among countless myths to carry a spiritual truth) or history…. But we must not use the Bible (our fathers too often did) as a sort of Encyclopedia out of which texts…can be taken for use as weapons.”13
Every day I read a chapter from both the Old and New Testaments and have been through the whole of it countless times with inestimable profit.
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SteveG #136
Your argument is about supposed vestigial structures. This is a very old argument that has mostly been proven false. Many of these so-called useless parts have been found to be not so useless after all. Darwin said body hair was useless. Apparently he never had body odor or an insect crawl on him. Discover Magazine provides such a list, with lots of weasel words like “may have been”, “may be”, “most likely”. In other words, they don’t have a clue but need to fill space on a page.
As for vitamin C production, you say we have a gene to produce vitamin C, but it is non-functional. This is not evolution, but devolution. Entropy, decay, disease, suffering and death is completely in line with a creationist understanding of life after the Fall of Man. Everything is getting worse, not better.
Evolutionists have yet to prove that mutations and death cause an upward chain of improvements that lead to higher and higher life forms. Creationists say exactly the opposite, that everything was created perfect, but now is on a downhill slope of disease, death and extinction. This explains why there was such a greater variety of species in the past, most of which have now become extinct.
Evolutionists say everything is getting better, while science shows precisely the opposite.
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Xion,
Good questions. I’ll try to answer them. (I did not take “ignorant” as derogatory, necessarily, but as meaning “not knowing” rather than “knowing but choosing to ignore.)
Regarding death prior to Adam, even if I look at Adam as a literal first human (I have said I consider that possibility, I just don’t consider it imperative), I think the earth and plants and animals had been around far longer than 6 24-hour days. I understand the passages in Romans and 1 Cor. to refer to human death, not death of other life forms. There is a good discussion of this topic at reasons.org (which takes the view that humans were specially created by God, but that other life forms had lived for long ages prior to that).
If Adam and the Fall are figurative rather than literal, then the death which we all suffer as a consequence of sin is spiritual death, being cut off from God. And since the ordinary meaning of the word “death” is physical death, to speak of spiritual death is figurative anyway. But that does not in any way negate our need of a Savior to give spiritual life.
Jesus quoted the verse that says “God made them male and female.” No mention of how or when, except that it was “from the beginning.” Since the context is marriage/divorce, the only relevant beginning is of human life, whenever that was. He quoted the next verse also, regarding a man leaving his father and mother and becoming attached to his wife, which likewise says nothing about the means or timing of creation, only that it was God’s purpose from the first for men and women to form these attachments. (And it could hardly be talking about Adam, as he had no mother and father to leave.)
The genealogies in the Bible are often incomplete, skipping over some generations. I remember in Bible school (a fundamentalist school that did insist on believing in 6 24-hour day creation), asking our Bible teacher about Matt. 1:5-6. It says that the mother of Boaz was Rahab, who lived in Joshua’s time. But Boaz also appears to be the great-grandfather of King David, based on these verses. Yet the entire book of Judges, which we were taught spanned 350 years, came between the time of Joshua and 1 Samuel, where David comes in. So I asked just how did Rahab’s son have a great-grandson who lived more than 350 years later (David isn’t at the very beginning of 1 Samuel either). My professor’s answer was that it is common in the genealogies of the Bible to only mention some of the more prominent names, particularly in a case such as Matthew’s where he is trying to use a mnemonic device (3 groups of 14 generations) to make it easier to learn. So saying “begat” didn’t necessarily mean that the next name in the list was the man’s own son, but rather a descendant, possibly multiple generations down the line.
With this in mind, I take the genealogy in Luke to hit the major names known, going back as far as anyone knew, eventually of course going back to Adam as the progenitor of the human race. The point apparently being that Jesus was related to everyone, not just Jews. And I think that point is valid whether or not you think in terms of a literal Adam.
I don’t say any of this to try to convince someone that this is the best way to view those Scriptures, simply to answer Xion’s question about how one can look at them without believing in a literal Adam.
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OK, Dog, I’m having a slow day so what the heck, I’ll engage your arguments from #151.
I do not believe there are any such things as a natural laws as you apparently intend them. I do believe that “anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace” is ultimately caused by God’s deliberate action. I also believe that God keeps His word. This is what makes science possible.
OK, how about this then: Things normally happen in repeatable, predictable ways. If you drop an object, it falls. If you drop an egg into boiling water and leave it there a few minutes, its liquid contents become solid. If you then put the boiling water into a container and keep it a temperature of less than 32 degrees Farenheit for a period of time, the water becomes solid.
I call it natural law. You call it the deliberate action of God. Other than the term used, is there a practical difference?
You admitted that of course if I bring God into this debate, then homologies can’t be said to be necessary proof of common descent. But you complained that then God can be seen *everywhere*. I answered that this precisely is the position you want to attack. So quit complaining about what your opponents actually believe, quit misrepresenting them, and deal with their arguments.
Take your own advice. That is not the position I am talking about at all. Someone who believes the universe has no operating principles at all, just the individual and deliberate actions of God who just happens to prefer to make the same decisions every time except those few times when makes an exception, are beyond the reach of logic and science. If the universe does not operate under predictable rules, then there is no way we can ever really know anything about it. God COULD have created you yesterday and also created a brainful of false memories for you to give you the illusion that you’ve lived for however many years you’ve been around. No way to prove that didn’t happen, but also absolutely no reason to think it did.
This is not the position I’m discussing because there is simply no point in debating a person who believes that way. No matter how much evidence I could present to you, you would shrug off with “God did it that way,” and what can I say to that? Nothing, really. So why bother?
The position I DO seek to engage — it’s a friendly discussion, not a war, so I will decline to use your hostile verb — is that the scientific evidence supports Biblical Creationism. People who are taking that position are rooted in the real-world understanding that when things happen they have effects, and the effects can be analyzed to deduce the cause. They may be mistaken, but they are approaching the question with the same grounding principles that most of us do, so there is common ground to discuss.
How many of your fellow Christians have come to your aid, Dog, to say yes, we do believe there are no natural laws? Zero, by my count. Are you sure you are such a traditional Christian?
“Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)”
I have no idea from what pocket you have drawn these natural laws, but of course it must be a trick. I deny your concept of natural laws. I do believe that as a rule God faithfully does things in predictable ways. On what grounds do you believe there are such things as natural laws?
On the grounds that when I drop my keys in the parking lot, they never hang in midair. They always fall.
But as I said at the top, perhaps we’re talking about the same thing using different vocabularies.
“We see the sun rise and we know it is because the Earth’s rotation is bringing our part of the world into the sunlight. We don’t need to spend a minute wondering if this particular sunrise is somehow caused by God suspending the natural laws to do something miraculous.”
How do you know there is a natural law governing sunrise?
“When the trees begin to sprout new leaves in the Spring, we know it is because that is what trees do as part of their natural life cycle. We don’t need to debate whether God is suspending the natural laws and making it happen.”
Sorry, no neutral nor common ground here either. I don’t believe there are any natural laws governing tree growth. I do believe God makes trees grow. How do you know there are natural laws governing tree growth?
I was mistaken, you’re right …. we do have no common ground. Unless you are playing some elaborate practical joke, which I really hope is the case.
“I am not quite sure what you mean by “covenant-breaking idol,” so please elaborate.”
Sure. Here goes. You wrote somewhere: “it’s legitimate to tell people they don’t understand the theory [of evolution] if they’re repeatedly demanding to be shown something the theory never said would be there and refusing to accept that they have a mistaken expectation.” Now before you give Christians this piece of advice about the theory of evolution, you would do well to avoid writing stuff like this: “Once you start bringing a God who can and does disrupt the natural laws at his whim, you can claim anything. . . Once you start positing a God who can do anything he wants, then nothing is evidence of anything.” I didn’t bring and I didn’t posit. Sorry the God I believe in is different from what you would like Him to be. The God you describe does not exist. The true God is a covenant-keeping God, who promises continuity and uniformity in nature, and whose Word is sure and trustable.
Which would imply that God has established laws by which the Creation operates, except in those cases where He chooses to suspend the normal order of things and do something different.
So you do believe in natural laws, you just refuse to call them by that name?
You continue to be a conundrum.
You said, “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.” If so, I asked, in case you maybe see the light, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent? Your appalling answer: “Common descent is the linchpin of evolutionary theory. Ultimately, all life comes through it. But in any single example where two organisms have similar adaptive measures, there may or may not be a direct line of descent between them.”
Wow Steve, you hang yourself and you don’t even notice it. Please don’t tell me you don’t see that you are left with no argument for evolution based on homology?
I think it’s more that you didn’t understand me. Let’s try again.
Ultimately, every life form is explained by common descent. The issue with convergent evolution becomes the question of just how far back you have to go to find the common ancestor between any two species. For similar creatures, say cats and dogs, it’s not as far back as for dogs and insects.
There may be lineages where two lines develop similar adaptive features that don’t go all the way back to the common ancestor. Insects developed flight long before there were birds. Go back far enough and birds and insects have a common ancestor — common descent — but it is too far back to account for the similar adaptation — convergent.
Of course, I suppose it’s easier to just say God done it, and leave it at that.
“Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof.”
This is not how you speak when not challenged in this way. Or aren’t you the same guy who wrote, “Science DOES contradict [biblical revelation], and it HAS been proven false.” So can you or can you not prove common descent?
Here you conflate two very different things. Let’s imagine that over the next ten years a series of discoveries prove that Darwin was absolutely wrong and evolution has been a red herring all this time.
That would still not prove that Biblical Creationism is true. This is not an A or B choice, where if you prove one false the other must be true. You would still need positive evidence in favor of Creationism (or at least you would in order to show people skeptical of that view objective reasons why they should consider it.)
Those of us who operate it the real world of natural law (or a God who operates consistently if you prefer) understand that the evidence does not support the idea of all life forms appearing at the same time, or within days of each other. There is no evidence of a global flood or a single global extinction. Human beings did not all speak the same language until a sudden catastrophic scattering and gave them all different ones. (And people having different languages doesn’t prevent them from communicating as the omniscient God mistakenly believed it would in the Tower of Babel story.)
Even if we had no idea what did happen, even if our ideas about evolution turned out to be wrong, you would still not have evidence that Creation is the correct alternative.
Before you go around accusing people of misrepresenting others’ views, you should look in the mirror. Thanks to the predictable laws of nature, I am sure you’ll see your own reflection.
If you can, isn’t that unscientific? And if you cannot, what’s wrong with being a creationist?
You are free to believe whatever you want to.
“People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.”
Cheap shot. Watch this: “People who prefer to believe in evolution probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 6000 years, and probably not even then.”
what’s cheap about it? Your converse is also true.
I asked you, “Why don’t you start with a Creator?” You replied, “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.” Except, I asked, if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”? Now you answer, “Nope. And you are just assuming that I do. You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.”
Yeah, right. When have you seen natural laws the last time?
Just now. I press keys on my keyboard and they cause the desired letters and words to appear on my screen. They do this because of known principles about physics and electronics, not because God is making the words appear.
“Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study.”
Wow. And tell me, how does science get to know what the natural laws are in order to get the whole thing started?
Observation. Measurement. Testing. Repeating. If something happens the same way every time when the same conditions apply, you have found a natural law.
You said, “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” I replied, “Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.” Again baffled, you wrote, “If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet. Where is the fallacy?”
Steve, you need to study basic concepts in logic, fast.
Here you actually do have somewhat of a point. I am familiar with the error of affirming the consequent and your if-then series illustrates it; however, the scientific method is not guilty of it.
And importantly, neither is my example. If I had said “When it rains, the ground gets wet. If the ground is wet, it must have rained,” THAT would be the logic error.
I didn’t say that, however. My B statement was, “If the ground is wet, something made it wet.” Maybe rain. Maybe, as you noted earlier, melting snow. Maybe just dew. Maybe the fire department did come open all the hydrants during the night. But something caused the ground to be wet.
As an illustration of natural law, it means the most probable cause can often be deduced. If it is the middle of summer in the tropics, no snow around, and you heard the rain falling overnight, you can be confident assuming the ground is wet because it rained. If there were clear skies all night, then the wetness is likely just a morning dew.
So yes, I did overlook your description of the error, but I did not actually commit the error. So, score one-half point for you. Be proud.
“We find fossilized creatures at different layers, and we find them consistently distributed that way. That’s evidence that they lived at different times, separated by millions of years.”
This is one great example of your skill, kindof. If animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years, we would find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Now we DO find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Therefore these animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years. This may be the way evolutionists like to fool themselves into thinking they are whipping biblical creationism big time, but they are only exposing to the world their logical illiteracy.
Even the most ardent evolutionary theorist would agree this is an inference. It is the most likely inference. It is supported by a host of other evidence beyond the geological distribution.
But yes, if God wanted to distribute the fossils through the geological strata in a way that just makes it look like evolution is the best explanation — to trick us I guess so we won’t get saved and make heaven overcrowded — then nobody can prove that’s not what happened. So please, do go on believing in Creationism, your best evidence being “well nobody can prove it didn’t happen that way.”
And finally, you ask: “Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time.”
Easy: the zoological, historical, and soteriological implications of the biblical revelation. In short, if dinosaurs and dogs didn’t live at the same time, I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, so therefore dinosaurs and dogs must have lived at the same time.
Ha! You accuse me of a logic error and then offer as your evidence a theological claim that is in no way objectively observable.
Quite rich. This is a rocking good joke.
Now my turn. Find me one shred of evi
dence that penguins and giraffes share the same habitat.
Find me anyone who claims they do. Why should I try to provide evidence for claim no one makes?
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Xion at #176:
#172 SteveG “Genesis 2 says clearly that when God made man, no plants had yet come from the earth.”
No it doesn’t. You are making a false assumption that Gen 2 is chronological.
Hmm… Gen. 2:4-7 sound chronological to me.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up — for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground — the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
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The Scripture which we have today was given to men by the Holy Spirit written by those entrusted with TRUTH, writing as they were LED by the Holy Spirit of God. Nor were those who translated the documents so long ago in any way conspiring to delude the world as to the LORD’S virgin birth, ministry, death on the cross, and the triumphant Resurrection from the grave – However, the CONSPIRACY takes shape when those down through the ages, and more importantly in the past 200 years up to TODAY, weave what they consider to be a very cleaver way in which to attack the Bible, either by supposed knowledge or twisting passages of Scripture to meet their ‘agenda’ or ‘cult’ –
Those who wish to weave some sort of conspiracy, or fault as to the Bible’s authenticity have no proof of what they say, as to the accuracy and reliability of Scripture, accusing Old Testament ‘Prophets’ and Scripture as not being the “true word of God”, what proof do these so called ‘CONTRADICTIONIST’S’ have? ….. NONE! They often add Christ’s disciples who were chosen by Him for the preaching of the Gospel into a jigsaw puzzle, . . . . and also those disciples who sat under the Apostles to learn ‘first hand’ about the Savior, OR the accusations are hurled at the translators who worked with the original manuscripts, as not being equal to the task, however the LORD put them in a place to do just that TRANSLATE the manuscripts, and they did.
Those individuals who believe THEY ALONE are capable of reassembling, due to error or negligence, or down right untruthfulness are nothing more than antichrist – The LORD warned us there would be those who would come with ‘false gospel’ and they have been with us forever- There intent is to deceive those who believe in Jesus Christ, to put DOUBT in the minds of Believers, and those who would come to know the risen LORD.
Hebrew and Greek are ancient languages as are Aramaic and Latin – many pretend to have knowledge of these languages, be they in the ‘old form’ or the ‘new’ then becoming the so called ‘teacher’ of any and all who will listen, as though they are now ‘equipped’ with superior knowledge to translate the Scriptures, . .
The CONSPIRACY against GOD’S Word has not worked, those who are steadfast in their belief of the LORD Jesus Christ, and His DEITY are unmoved, those who would try to ‘delude’ the saints are the very ones who have fallen under their own delusion –
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 2 Timothy 4
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Xion at #179: As for vitamin C production, you say we have a gene to produce vitamin C, but it is non-functional. This is not evolution, but devolution. Entropy, decay, disease, suffering and death is completely in line with a creationist understanding of life after the Fall of Man. Everything is getting worse, not better.
Evolution only means change. It’s not always for the better. This is a common misconception.
The gene regulating Vitamin C production is one of the many examples of evidences that suggest common descent. The gene went defective and some point in time before humans and chimpanzees diverged down different evolutionary paths. The fact that the defective version is found in both but not in other mammals — but that it is the same gene — is one peg.
If it were the only one, it might not mean much, but I just offered it as an example.
Why would the Fall of Man also affect the gene in chimpanzees but not in zebras?
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Xion at #179: <i.This explains why there was such a greater variety of species in the past, most of which have now become extinct.
How do you know this to be true? There were species in the distant past that are extinct now. There are species now that didn’t exist in the distant past. I do not know that anyone has shown that there a greater number of individual species in the distant past. In fact, since fossilzation is such a relatively rare occurrence, I would think it’s probably not possible to know how many different species existed in the past. More than we’re aware of no doubt, but how many more? Who knows?
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STEVEG,
It’s interesting that you quote mined from Origen and Augustine since they were both young-earthers. The problem they had was with six 24 hr days of creation – not the age of the earth. Augustine said it all happened simultaneously and the days are just giving a logical order of the events and are not meant to be physical time. Origen believed the days before the sun and moon and stars were created were not real days and that time actually began after the creation of the heavenly bodies on the fourth day. But they both believed that the earth was only several thousand years old.
They didn’t take the six days as 24 hr days but they did believe that God created in the beginning, that the beginning was recent, that man was created in His image and that sin entered the world through Adam, the first man. If the problems with Genesis moved you to reject the entire Bible then I hope you reconsider at some point. The “non-literalists” you quoted didn’t understand every single scripture but it didn’t cause them to reject the whole.
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Victoria, I agree with all of the statements in 1-5, though not one of them argues that every word of Scripture is inerrant. Christ himself taught that He came to fulfill God’s Law, though he said nothing about every word of Scripture being inerrant.
The fact is that for millennia we have had devout Jewish and Christian writers differing in their interpretation of Scripture. To claim that all the men and women who wrote Biblical prose and poetry wrote inerrantly is beyond any sensible comprehension.
The Bible in its essence is the Word of God written by men guided by the Holy Spirit; however, these men are bound to some degree by both time and place- just as you and I are- along with the ordinary faults of fallen men, as the Bible teaches is true of every human being on earth that has ever lived.
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HOW LONG were Adam and Eve in the Garden
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.Genesis 2:8
(Not until Genesis 8 is it mentioned God planted a garden, until this time was there a garden? it appears there wasn’t. This verse also says God put the man (Adam) in the garden.)
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Genesis 2:15
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Genesis 1:3
(Adam and Eve had been in the Garden HOW LONG? None of us know the answer to that question, in fact we aren’t even given a clue. It could have been hundreds or thousands of years. It would make sense that in the beginning when they were in the Garden, they didn’t go even close to the tree they were forbidden to eat, but as time passed the woman was tempted, and as we all know disobeyed God.)
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Genesis 3:24
(The Garden of Eden is obviously a ‘PLACE’ we can see this as God drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden. In this way wouldn’t you be able to see that the whole earth was not covered by the garden? How long were Adam and Eve in the Garden before they were they were driven out? This question, and the length of time they were in the garden is very mind provoking.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. Genesis 1
What was going on in the world at large while Adam and Eve were in the garden? there obviously were life forms, God had made them!
How long were Adam and Eve in the Garden? Thousands of years, or LONGER?
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SBG at #186: It’s interesting that you quote mined from Origen and Augustine since they were both young-earthers. The problem they had was with six 24 hr days of creation – not the age of the earth. Augustine said it all happened simultaneously and the days are just giving a logical order of the events and are not meant to be physical time. Origen believed the days before the sun and moon and stars were created were not real days and that time actually began after the creation of the heavenly bodies on the fourth day. But they both believed that the earth was only several thousand years old.
Sure, but that’s neither surprising nor important. They both lived centuries before the evidence that suggested the great age of the Earth and universe began to be understand. The first dinosaur to be described in scientific literature was in 1824. Astronomers hadn’t even figured out the Earth goes around the Sun rather than the converse in the time of either Augustine or Origen.
There was no Old Earth view to be had in their time.
What’s important about them is that they both articulated reasons for not insisting that the Bible be taken literally in every regard. I offer them as a counter to people such as Outkast and Victoria who believe that reading it any way but literally is somehow heretical.
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By the way SBG, it’s only quote mining if you use a partial or out-of-context quote to make it appear that the writer/speaker meant something different from what he actually did mean. Excerpting an entire passage that illustrates a point the writer/speaker actually did mean doesn’t count.
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Erasmus, first the Bible was written well after the Bronze Age by learned men from the Axial age, roughly 500 B.C.,and afterwards. Second, the Biblical writers demonstrate far more understanding and wisdom about human life than any atheistic Darwinist that I have read.
Actually, we do have some excellent Bronze Age literature from the Akkadians, Egyptians, Hittites, and Indians (The Rig Veda) that would be well worth your perusal.
Your assumption that only modern “scientific” writers are capable of any truth rather reveals a profound ignorance about the wisdom of many people of genius in all ages. Your understanding of world literature is at best about at the sixth-grade level.
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STEVEG,
Point taken. We must be discerning about which parts are clearly literal and which aren’t. But as Luther points out below, we should be careful how much we allegorize scripture. I think what’s most important about Genesis 1-3 is that God exists, He created time, space, & matter (and all the “natural laws”), He created us in His image (significantly different than the animals), and we screwed up so we all need a savior.
Luther,
“I have often asserted that I take no delight in allegories. Nevertheless, I was so enchanted by them in my youth that under the influence of the examples of Origen and Jerome, whom I admired as the greater theologians, I thought that everything had to be turned into allegories. Augustine, too, makes frequent use of allegories. But while I was following their examples, I finally realized that to my own great harm I had followed an empty shadow and had left unconsidered the heart and core of the Scriptures. Later on, therefore, I began to have a dislike for allegories. They do indeed give pleasure, particularly when they have some delightful allusions. Therefore I usually compare them to pretty pictures. But to the same extent that the natural color of bodies surpasses the picture . . . the historical narrative surpasses the allegory” Lectures on Genesis
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Oh, this is funny! I just noticed it.
Harrison in the original post:
Oh, we found old fishes with flippers that looked like fingers, and old birds with scaly skin like dinosaurs, but science always eventually determines that these creatures belong to this or that species and aren’t, in fact, linking anything to anything.
Galadriel in post #3 quotes and asks: Examples, please?
Harrison happily obliges in #5 with links to two resources … both of which argue exactly the opposite of his point.
The link to PBS leads to a page that begins:
In 2004, a field crew digging in the Canadian Arctic unearthed the fossil remains of a half-fish, half-amphibian that would all but confirm paleontologists’ theories about how land-dwelling tetrapods (four-limbed animals, including us) evolved from their fish ancestors. The animal was a so-called lobe-finned fish that lived about 375 million years ago. Named Tiktaalik rosae by its discoverers, it is a classic example of a transitional form, one that bridges the evolutionary gap between two quite different types of animal. Below, see this and four other well-known fossil transitions, which clearly indicate Darwinian evolution in action.
Now maybe Harrison intended those pages to show only the evidence of the claims being made. I surely hope so, because there’s not one word in either of them that supports his original airy dismissal of such claims.
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#188 “How long were Adam and Eve in the Garden? Thousands of years, or LONGER?”
Victoria,
Interesting question. We discussed it recently in an adult Sunday School class at church (doing an overview of the Bible). The teacher (who definitely takes Genesis literally) offered as his best guess (since it obviously doesn’t say how long) that it was probably more than a few days but less than a year. His reasoning:
We may assume Adam and Eve enjoyed each other sexually. Sex is a good gift given by God, not in any way a result of the Fall. But there is no record of them having any children prior to the Fall. (And if they had, those children would not have had sinful natures. So after the Fall, you would have had fallen parents and un-fallen children.) And it seems highly unlikely that a perfectly healthy man and woman would have lived together, enjoying sex, and not having any kids, for a great length of time.
Just his opinion – but I thought it was a sensible one.
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VICTORIA,
The position you are taking means that you believe that Origen and St. Augustine among others were not Christians because they didn’t believe that the six days of creation were six 24 hr days. Does this also mean that anyone who sees that there are missing names in the genealogies and interprets that to mean that the time frame from one ancestor to the next is unsure – is not a Christian? So we all must believe in Bishop Ussher’s date of October 23rd, 4004 BC to be Christians?
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SteveG, I distinguish between the empirical truth of evolution and Darwinism in that any trend of thought ending with an “ism” usually is a sign of some sort of fevered ideology. One doesn’t hear of Newtonism, Einsteinism, or Bohrism. Darwin himself was far from being a Darwinist.
As to “pelvic Freedom” that was a toss off point that a Greek philosophy professor of mine at Harvard College back in the late fifties, by the name of Demos, made in a lecture regarding the tendency of Darwin’s followers to confuse the scientific truth of evolution with proof of metaphysical naturalism or materialism. Prof. Demos elaborated on the “pelvic freedom” bit by saying that going back to the time of Democritus and Lucretius those who advocated hedonism, especially of the sexual type, tended to hope for a material, amoral cosmos. Demos, himself, was a devoted Platonist who first taught me to take John’s interpretation of Christ as the [Platonic] Logos as probably true.
Later, I noted that Aldous Huxley, a devoted Darwinian, wrote that … the sense of spiritual freedom that comes from rejecting God is enormous….We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom….
Interestingly, virtually all of the gays or their supporters on this blog are avid Darwinians.
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Peter Leavit at #196:
SteveG, I distinguish between the empirical truth of evolution and Darwinism in that any trend of thought ending with an “ism” usually is a sign of some sort of fevered ideology. One doesn’t hear of Newtonism, Einsteinism, or Bohrism. Darwin himself was far from being a Darwinist.
I’d like to know better what you mean by it before I say much, because it’s a very loosely used and imprecise in meaning. There is a philosophy called “Darwinism” which argues that Darwin’s biological ideas can also apply to societies. Then there is “Darwinism” used by Creationists as a perjorative, in an effort to suggest that evolution is a belief system or ideology.
And the term can be applied to evolutionary theory the science as well, but then it becomes very easily confused and ambiguous.
As to “pelvic Freedom” that was a toss off point that a Greek philosophy professor of mine at Harvard College back in the late fifties, by the name of Demos, made in a lecture regarding the tendency of Darwin’s followers to confuse the scientific truth of evolution with proof of metaphysical naturalism or materialism.
And again, it may be a fair distinction to make. But I think the term, as clever as it is, paints with a broad brush. Most scientists accept evolutionary theory because they judge the known facts to support it well, not because they secretly think it’s a crock but it gives them license to boff at will so they try to convince themselves.
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Sarah was ninety years old when she had a son.
Does God give children when we think He should? Of course not.
Because God told Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth does not mean that they had children, even for thousands of years. It was after Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden by GOD that they had children. Since sin had not entered the garden, and Eve not bearing children in whatever time frame that was, 2 years or 2,000 years makes no difference.
God has a plan, he always had a plan….even before the foundation of the world, that you and I and everyone else would be born. How can we understand the mind of God? we can’t!
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Psalms 90
So it is with verse four. “A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past” GOD doesn’t say how long Adam and Eve were in the garden, HE doesn’t even give us a clue. Yes they were to multiply, but does that mean within 2 years, 20, 100, 2,000? . . of course not. But we do KNOW what the Bible says regarding creation.
God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31
The verse above is explicit, it talks directly of evening and the morning were the sixth day”- since God had made light, there was a day with light, and a darkness called night. VERY CLEAR, when you think about literal days of creation, light and dark for days is literal!
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1
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SBG – 195
What post are you referring to? Why don’t you quote whatever it is you have a question of?
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SBG – 195
YOU POST…..”Does this also mean that anyone who sees that there are missing names in the genealogies and interprets that to mean that the time frame from one ancestor to the next is unsure – is not a Christian? So we all must believe in Bishop Ussher’s date of October 23rd, 4004 BC to be Christians?
SBG, what I have bolded makes no sense. You are mixing and matching. Whatever point you are trying to make, or stirring up the TOPIC?
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VICTORIA,
168 – “When anyone tries to tear down the Word of God, I question their belief in Jesus Christ.”
This was in reference to six days of creation or maybe I’m wrong.
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SBG – 201
This is what I wrote Post 165, I didn’t write post 168 as you reference above.
The entire post 165 below:
————————–
Post 165
I am beginning to wonder how many true Born Again Believers are posting on this thread, not to mention this blog.
There are RED FLAGS, and those who are truly Born Again know what they are.
—————————
In the above post I didn’t mention six days or creation-
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SBA it was post 168.
______________________
Post 168
Literal is just what a day means, be it a six day week in which we work, or one day in which we observe the Sabbath, its a day. We observe one day a week for Sabbath, and work six days.
God isn’t a God of confusion as some would like to make it.
The Word of God is either true, or it isn’t, you cannot take one Book like Genesis, and say it is “religious poetry” . . . you are left with Exodus. When anyone tries to tear down the Word of God, I question their belief in Jesus Christ.
What does the Bible say about those who claim to be Believers? Are we to judge those within, or those without?
_________________________
SBG, it was a general statement regarding those who want to tear down Scripture.
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VICTORIA,
You refer to Exodus and talk about literal days and then make the statement about tearing down the Word of God. So it would seem from your posts that you think someone who doesn’t believe in literal 24 hr days in creation is trying to tear down the Word. Am I missing something?
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So then Pauline, your position and Peter’s (whom I assume agrees with you) is to spiritualize the first few chapters of the Bible.
I can respect that position even though I don’t agree. In the same way, I respect many great Covenant theologians even though I do not agree with replacement theology.
Scripture is multidimensional. Just as the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, so too we wander through life and one day will enter the promised land. Strict literalism is shallow and ignores the great depth of scripture. But while it is good to see the spiritual illustration, it would be false to say that the Exodus account never happened.
The spiritual aspect of scriptures is its most powerful part, but to ignore the literal meaning is leave it ungrounded in physical reality. To cut out difficult passages is a slippery slope. How does one know when to quit?
According to your interpretation:
1. Rom 5:12-14 and 1 Cor 15:22 refer to spiritual death of some sort of proto man who represents humankind. Yet acc. to Gen 5:5 this proto man lived 930 years, had a wife and children and then died. How can a proto man have such a literal history?
The rest of the Bible is about one of his offspring who would would call himself ‘ben Adam’, i.e. the son of Adam. Unfortunately, this fact is lost in the translation which renders it ’son of man’. The Hebrew word for ‘human’ is ’son of Adam’ and it is used 193 times in scripture. Jesus used the phrase continually.
2. Jesus’ quoting of Genesis was in a spiritual sense. Marriage is certainly spiritual, but what of its physical reality?
3. Calling the genealogies incomplete is not the same as saying the people weren’t real.
The Bible is a spiritual book with a spiritual message, but it is also rooted and grounded in physical reality. To remove that reality trivializes it.
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SBG – 205
Exodus is talking about literal days.
As I recall, no one answered or commented on my posts regarding Exodus, if they did, I missed the posts.
I do question those who tear Scripture apart, especially when it involves more than one book of the Bible, as in Genesis and Exodus……actually one book being Genesis is enough. How clear the LORD was to Moses atop mount Sinai, when he handed Moses the two tablets. Can you imagine Moses not getting the words of the LORD right? Think about it!
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(Notice it is GOD speaking here to Moses. Then God goes on to say “for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 32:16-18
(Here again in verse 18 it is clear that the LORD is giving Moses the TABLETS upon mount Sinai, “written with the finger of GOD”)
How can we dismiss creation in six days in the book of Genesis and then not look at Exodus when Moses was atop mount Sinai? To do so, in light of the FACT that it was at this very time the LORD gave the two tablets to Moses, written by the “finger of GOD” and then say, that the “six days the LORD made heaven and earth” could have been a thousand years each, etc., etc., etc., NO, it clearly says “six days” then the LORD goes on to say “and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed” – - the LORD was clear, speaking to Moses.
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1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Exodus 20
Should this, one of the most RELEVANT parts of Scripture be taken as “religious poetry”, is there some reason why verse eleven (11) should be “religious poetry and the rest be taken LITERALLY?
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VICTORIA,
So back to my original point – would you say anyone who doesn’t believe in 6 24 hr days of creation is not a Christian?
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SBG – 209
I wouldn’t say they weren’t a Christian. However, they wouldn’t be teaching my children in Sunday School. I don’t trust anyone who considers Genesis to be nothing more than “religious poetry”- that in itself is not sound. The entire book of Genesis is very rich, consider Noah, Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, etc.
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SAB
What does one do with Exodus 20?… my post 208.
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P. Leavitt, and Victoria (if you’re willing to stretch a bit),
This is a nice, though brief, description of the Genesis account squared with scientific cosmology.
Regards,
SG
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Xion — So then Pauline, your position and Peter’s (whom I assume agrees with you) is to spiritualize the first few chapters of the Bible.
Roger — I can’t answer for either one of them but I want to point out a few things that may help their case.
First, let me cite her remark to Victoria from two days ago when she said,
I consider Genesis 1 to teach that God created everything, not a record of the process used.
Notice that she restricted her remarks to Genesis the first chapter, which is significant to the observations I want to share next. Also, notice that she defends the idea that God created everything, even affirming that Genesis 1 teaches it. She believes that God created the world, and she believes Genesis 1 teaches this. She disagrees with those who assert that Genesis 1 describes a process.
I want point out a few things for you and the others to consider, and pardon me if you already know this.
A. Some posit that the Bible was not originally written on parchment, rolled up like a scroll, but on tablets of clay, like thick pages of a book. At the top of each “page” one would find the “title” of the page describing the contents.
For instance, it has been pointed out that Moses gives the account of creation twice: once in chapter one and again in chapter two. The two accounts basically teach the same thing, that God created everything. The two accounts vary in scope and emphasis but both are true and neither one contradicts the other.
If this is true, the opening line of Genesis would not be the beginning line of the body of the text, but the title of that page. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”, would be the title. The first line of the body of text would read, “The earth was formless and void.”
The second “page” (clay tablet) would have the title (which is Genesis 2:4 in our Bibles) “This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.” That would be written at the top of the page. And the first line of the body of text would read, “Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.” The phrase “this is the account of” indicates to the reader that what follows is an account of things and as we read we discover that Moses has told the same story again, but from a new angle. Beginning in chapter two we notice that Genesis has become a little more anthropocentric.
In addition, Genesis begins to adopt a narrative structure, which continues to the end of the book. But what about Genesis 1? Granted, Genesis one shares similar characteristics with the narrative form as we imagine God in his workshop making light and earth and sky, etc. However, taking a closer look, I believe we might find elements of poetry.
Now, I have been told that Genesis one is not Hebrew poetry. However, putting aside the scholastic definitions of poetry for the moment, I observe the first chapter of Genesis is both rhythmic and repetitive. In addition to that, the structure of it does not fit with a “scientific” organizational principle. (And I beleive this was Pauline’s point.)
For starters, we notice that Moses has God creating domains in days two and three, and populating those domains in days four, five and six. Many have noticed and rightly pointed out that Moses has God creating light, and the distinction between darkness and light before he creates the luminaries: sun, moon, and stars. This fact helps Pauline’s case that Genesis one does not read like an unfolding process. One would expect the process to begin with the creation of the luminaries, which would in-turn bath the universe in light. If Moses was describing the PROCESS of creation, he has the cart before the horse.
Now, when she says that Genesis 1 does not describe a process, she is NOT, at the same time, suggesting that God didn’t create light or the luminaries. He did. Her only disagreement with the traditional view centers on the first chapter’s organizing principle. Rather than describing the chronological, physical process of creation, Moses has organized his account of creation differently in order to make a more profound point than to merely suggest that God is the author of it, which is obvious but not the only point to make about it.
I could continue to exegete Genesis the first chapter if need be, but I think I made my point already and this post is getting long.
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Serious George – 212
This may surprise you, but what does this have to do with Genesis and Exodus?
Many can’t bear to understand the Scriptures, . . . they aren’t able to cope with anything other than their ‘half whacked ideas’ which have no bearing on Scripture, never mind science, which they never understood from the beginning.
Are you making a point OR making an argument?
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SG 212: Interesting synopsis. Thanks for the link.
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SG: Ditto – good stuff.
Roger: Interesting as well. And how does a literal Adam fit into that paradigm?
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Roger at #213:
The two accounts vary in scope and emphasis but both are true and neither one contradicts the other.
and
For starters, we notice that Moses has God creating domains in days two and three, and populating those domains in days four, five and six. Many have noticed and rightly pointed out that Moses has God creating light, and the distinction between darkness and light before he creates the luminaries: sun, moon, and stars. This fact helps Pauline’s case that Genesis one does not read like an unfolding process. One would expect the process to begin with the creation of the luminaries, which would in-turn bath the universe in light. If Moses was describing the PROCESS of creation, he has the cart before the horse.
Interesting.
It raises a question though … if Genesis 1 is not an attempt to describe the sequence of creation, then what is the significance of dividing it into a succession of days?
Genesis 1 and 2 do at least appear to conflict if the Genesis 1 sequence is intended to read as a sequence. In Gen 1, God creates plants on Day 3 and man on Day 6. In Gen 2, God creates man before the plants had come.
So if Gen 1 is read not as a sequence but as a simple statement that God created domains and also populated the domains, why the “days?”
Roger, as another point to consider, some have argued that the light of Gen. 1:2 could refer to the explosion of energy at the time of the Big Bang, while the matter of the universe didn’t coalesce into stars for a long time.
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Correction: The light of Gen. 1:3, not 1:2.
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VICTORIA,
Just wanted to make sure that we are being careful about judging someone’s salvation based on their view of Genesis 1. I always have in the back of my head the admonition by God in Job 38 – Were you there when I laid the foundation of the earth? So I’m willing to say I’m not sure what God meant by a day in Genesis and I’m not afraid of that effecting my view of the rest of God’s Word. And I wouldn’t be critical of anyone for believing one way or the other about something that is not essential for salvation. If they reject that God exists, that He created plants and animals according to their kind and that He created us different from the animals, then we have a problem.
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Rethinking my 219 post, even God creating according to their kind can have differing interpretations and is not really essential to salvation. I look at the animals and see the incredible designing hand of God and think that’s awesome! But someone else might say its cool how God designed the earth and guided it in order to bring forth life with so much variety. The key is that we are different from the animals in ways that evolution and science can’t explain. Sorry for the rambling thoughts. Don’t worry Victoria, your kids are safe from my teaching in Sunday school.
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SERIOUS GEORGE,
I liked your link. I’ve read “The Science of God” and found it to be quite interesting and explains the problem of star light velocity and six days of creation.
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SBG
I have answered your questions. Are you going to answer mine in post 207 and 208?
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VICTORIA,
My answer to Exodus 20 would be that God is comparing His six days of creation (days from God’s perspective) to man’s six days of work. As I said to SG, I read “The Science of God” and found a compelling scientific explanation that is in harmony with Genesis. Remember that Genesis 1-2:4 could have been written directly by God on a clay tablet like the 10 commandments so the creation account is from His perspective. I’m not dogmatic about this because there are other explanations. I struggle with the light from distant stars and have been trying to find an acceptable explanation – other than God created the light already in transit. He is capable of doing that but it seems unreasonable to me. Of course this is just my humble opinion and enjoy talking to others and reading about how they deal with the issue in case I might learn something from them. As I hit Post, I’m putting my hands over my head to reduce the pain from getting whacked by Bible verses.
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SBG
How much clearer can the finger of GOD be?
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(Notice it is GOD speaking here to Moses. Then God goes on to say “for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 32:16-18
(Here again in verse 18 it is clear that the LORD is giving Moses the TABLETS upon mount Sinai, “written with the finger of GOD”)
We as little ‘finite’ beings, trying to figure out the majesty, the power of GOD Almighty. Man believes that if he can’t understand something from GOD, then perhaps it isn’t true, maybe some finite scientist can enlighten him.
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While God was giving Moses the finger, he could have perhaps explained why God needs to “rest.”
Man believes that if he can’t understand something from GOD, then perhaps it isn’t true, maybe some finite scientist can enlighten him.
Which is a much better approach than deciding that if Scripture and reality conflict, it’s reality that’s wrong.
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STEVEG – 225
YOUR REMARK:
You expect respect, for that SLY remark?
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SBG 223: White holes and relativity?
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SBG,
Thanks for the pointer to Schroeder’s book. I’ll put it on my list.
Regards,
SG
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VICTORIA,
“Man believes that if he can’t understand something from GOD, then perhaps it isn’t true, maybe some finite scientist can enlighten him.”
Thanks, that didn’t hurt too much. You know you are arguing with an ordained pastor not an atheist? You will probably duck away from the above statement as being a general statement but it was prompted by my response. I never said what was written isn’t true and I believe pretty strongly that Gen 1-2:4 was originally written by the finger of God also. And you are right – some finite scientist can enlighten me just as finite pastor friends enlighten me and finite seminary professors too. I just have to remain aware of the presuppositions and agendas that are usually present.
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SBG
You have mentioned many times you are an ordained pastor, that doesn’t mean I agree with you, or that I have studied less of the Bible than you have, nor does it trump TRUTH. I have never laid out my credentials on this blog.
As far as your remark about your not being an “atheist” that’s plain silly. I’m not going to try and make you feel better for making such a ridiculous remark.
If you or anyone can take Exodus 20, lift out verse 11 as though it isn’t “LITERAL” then why not re-arrange the “Ten Commandments” as they can be thought of as not being EXACTLY as written in Exodus?
Tell me what verses are not literal in Exodus 20? GOD had a lot to say in that chapter.
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SERIOUS GEORGE,
It’s the cosmology of “The Science of God” that is interesting to me. He reconciles the red shift of distant star light with six days of creation. An interesting attempt to harmonize science and Genesis. He points out that even one-celled life can reproduce by mitosis and questions how that reproductive system could have evolved over time – without an existing system then one generation wouldn’t survive to try again. But I don’t agree with everything in the book and the author is a Jewish physicist so his theological discussion has a Jewish flavor to it. I can feel the heat rising in VICTORIA already – don’t worry, this book is not in your church library.
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SBG – 231
You seem to take delight in making snide remarks, which are uncalled for, did they teach you this in seminary, or did you skip seminary? All ordained ministers have not attended seminary.
As far as Jewish goes, I have many, many friends who are Jewish, in medicine, science, etc. You have no idea what books are in my library or that of my Church you PRESUME, what you have no knowledge of.
Strange that you can add that comment to your post to someone else and mention my name…… as you ’say’ you are a pastor, but your demeanor doesn’t match.
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Victoria at #226: I don’t expect respect from you for anything I might say, but I will admit my joke was not in the best of taste. No offense was meant, but I understand it probably does offend some here, so I apologize.
However, the point I made in that post remains valid. The verse you cite says God “rested, and was refreshed.”
Now if it just said “rested,” we could take that to just mean stopped. We can speak of a car rolling to a stop and resting in the parking space, and we just mean its motion has ended.
But it specifically says God was “refreshed” by rest. Do you take this as literal also, as you are insisting the six days should be? If so, then why does God need to rest in order to be refreshed?
If not, if you believe that particular point to be non-literal, then why insist the six days must literally be six 24-hour days?
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Steveg – 233
You hold others ACCOUNTABLE to the very book (Bible) you deny. Why would you quote it and hold Believers accountable, thats nonsense!
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Believers believe it. Why shouldn’t I expect believers to adhere to what they say they believe?
I notice you don’t actually address the question I raised. Can you?
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VICTORIA,
I apologize that I offended you. The comment was not about what you read but what is mostly likely not in your church library. Your questioning of my credentials as a pastor is also offensive since I spent 7 yrs in seminary part time while working full time as an engineer and trying to raise a family at the same time. A lot of personal sacrifice involved in attempting to serve our Lord and answer God’s call. Maybe a softer approach from both of us is warranted.
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SBG – 236
I have ignored some of your remarks, but this one was ONE TO MANY. I wasn’t impressed, nor was it warranted.
You may have gone to seminary for seven years . . . However, I have known a great many pastors, and they don’t speak the way you write. Your sacrifice in going to school has nothing to do with, and certainly isn’t an excuse to ’smart off’-
Can you answer post 230? I asked this question several times in other posts, yet you don’t answer, your “atheist” remark sidestepped the question. I have answered your questions, so it would seem you could answer this one.
I accept your apology, thank you.
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Steveg
I’m through discussing the Word of God with you, as you don’t believe it. You use this as a way to make ’sport’ of the Bible, and its disgusting.
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SteveG at #181: “OK, Dog, I’m having a slow day so what the heck, I’ll engage your arguments from #151.”
ASALTYDOG: Hello Steve, welcome back! Hope you’ll have a slow week! The discussion is getting long, but very interesting, so as you can see I have split it in sections with some context for convenience. My newest comments are always preceded by ASALTYDOG in capital letters. Have fun!
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ASaltyDog: “I do not believe there are any such things as a natural laws as you apparently intend them. I do believe that “anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace” is ultimately caused by God’s deliberate action. I also believe that God keeps His word. This is what makes science possible.”
SteveG: “OK, how about this then: Things normally happen in repeatable, predictable ways. If you drop an object, it falls. If you drop an egg into boiling water and leave it there a few minutes, its liquid contents become solid. If you then put the boiling water into a container and keep it a temperature of less than 32 degrees Farenheit for a period of time, the water becomes solid. I call it natural law. You call it the deliberate action of God. Other than the term used, is there a practical difference?”
ASALTYDOG: You bet. How do you account for such uniformity of nature? Have you tested all the eggs of the world? How do you know that tomorrow the eggs will continue to become solid?
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ASaltyDog: “You admitted that of course if I bring God into this debate, then homologies can’t be said to be necessary proof of common descent. But you complained that then God can be seen *everywhere*. I answered that this precisely is the position you want to attack. So quit complaining about what your opponents actually believe, quit misrepresenting them, and deal with their arguments.”
SteveG: “Take your own advice. That is not the position I am talking about at all. Someone who believes the universe has no operating principles at all, just the individual and deliberate actions of God who just happens to prefer to make the same decisions every time except those few times when makes an exception, are beyond the reach of logic and science.”
ASALTYDOG: On the contrary, Steve: that is the only possible foundation for science. It is your position that makes science impossible. And you still can’t use homologies as evidence of common descent.
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SteveG: “If the universe does not operate under predictable rules, then there is no way we can ever really know anything about it.”
ASALTYDOG: That’s exactly your problem. How do you know that the universe operates under predictable rules? Because if you can’t know that, as you admit, there is no way you can have science. Given your world view, then, how do you account for the predictability of nature?
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SteveG: “God COULD have created you yesterday and also created a brainful of false memories for you to give you the illusion that you’ve lived for however many years you’ve been around. No way to prove that didn’t happen, but also absolutely no reason to think it did.”
ASALTYDOG: If God did what you suggest I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, therefore God did not create me yesterday. No way to prove it? There, I proved it. And again, nobody believes in the God you envision. The God of the Bible is not a covenant-breaking idol, so quit building strawgods.
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SteveG: “This is not the position I’m discussing because there is simply no point in debating a person who believes that way. No matter how much evidence I could present to you, you would shrug off with “God did it that way,” and what can I say to that? Nothing, really. So why bother?”
ASALTYDOG: This is vintage whining-SteveG at his best. “I can debate anybody, really, and I can demonstrate evolution to anybody, except to someone who doesn’t believe it. I’m really good at proving Genesis wrong, except if I meet someone who believes it. Why can’t you Christians pretend there’s no God for a minute?” Hilarious.
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SteveG: “The position I DO seek to engage — it’s a friendly discussion, not a war, so I will decline to use your hostile verb — is that the scientific evidence supports Biblical Creationism. People who are taking that position are rooted in the real-world understanding that when things happen they have effects, and the effects can be analyzed to deduce the cause. They may be mistaken, but they are approaching the question with the same grounding principles that most of us do, so there is common ground to discuss.”
ASALTYDOG: Rest assured that I belong precisely to the group of people who believe that the scientific evidence supports Biblical Creationism. Rest assured that you are really “engaging” my position. And for someone who compared me to a drug addict, your complaining now that my word “attack” was hostile and unfriendly makes you sound like you are stuck exactly in the middle between hysteria and hypocrisy.
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SteveG: “How many of your fellow Christians have come to your aid, Dog, to say yes, we do believe there are no natural laws? Zero, by my count. Are you sure you are such a traditional Christian?”
ASALTYDOG: Rest assured I am in very good company. To my aid? For what? For replying to you? By the way I think they are doing such a fine job that they don’t need me to come to their aid either.
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SteveG: “Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)”
ASaltyDog: “I have no idea from what pocket you have drawn these natural laws, but of course it must be a trick. I deny your concept of natural laws. I do believe that as a rule God faithfully does things in predictable ways. On what grounds do you believe there are such things as natural laws?”
SteveG: “On the grounds that when I drop my keys in the parking lot, they never hang in midair. They always fall. But as I said at the top, perhaps we’re talking about the same thing using different vocabularies.”
ASALTYDOG: That’s not the same thing as showing that there are natural laws. You have not seen any natural law walking loose in your parking lot, trust me. You have only seen some keys dropping a few times. Will the keys fall the next time you drop them?
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ASaltyDog: “Sorry, no neutral nor common ground here either. I don’t believe there are any natural laws governing tree growth. I do believe God makes trees grow. How do you know there are natural laws governing tree growth?”
SteveG: “I was mistaken, you’re right …. we do have no common ground. Unless you are playing some elaborate practical joke, which I really hope is the case.”
ASALTYDOG: Knock, knock. Anybody home? I ask questions, I get no answers.
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ASaltyDog: “The true God is a covenant-keeping God, who promises continuity and uniformity in nature, and whose Word is sure and trustable.”
SteveG: “Which would imply that God has established laws by which the Creation operates, except in those cases where He chooses to suspend the normal order of things and do something different. So you do believe in natural laws, you just refuse to call them by that name? You continue to be a conundrum.”
ASALTYDOG: No. That’s still the lie of deism. God is not contemplating from a distance how an engine (or a law) works. There are no laws of nature. There’s nothing impersonal in how nature works. Christ makes it rain. He makes trees grow. He makes the water boil. He keeps the moon rotating around the earth. He commands the wind and it obeys him. He makes your keys drop.
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NOTE by ASALTYDOG: Here, curiously enough, there was a section in my original post #151 which you quite uncharacteristically choose not to quote, for some reason. And I must add that, most definitely, the reason you skipped this is NOT necessarily that you find the section embarrassing when compared to things you’ll say later on in this post. END OF NOTE
SteveG: “Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened.”
ASaltyDog: “That, my friend, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, is a logical fallacy.”
SteveG: “Huh? How? It’s a logical fallacy to assume the workings of a known cause when we see the effect that the known cause causes? So let me get this straight . . . I don’t follow your reasoning here at all.”
ASaltyDog: “No hope you’ll ever get this (or concede this) any time soon, evidently. But yes, it is a blatant, obvious, really bad logical fallacy, that is absolutely devastating to your argument here.”
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SteveG: “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.”
ASaltyDog: “If so, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent?”
SteveG: “Common descent is the linchpin of evolutionary theory. Ultimately, all life comes through it. But in any single example where two organisms have similar adaptive measures, there may or may not be a direct line of descent between them.”
ASaltyDog: “Wow Steve, you hang yourself and you don’t even notice it. Please don’t tell me you don’t see that you are left with no argument for evolution based on homology?”
SteveG: “I think it’s more that you didn’t understand me. Let’s try again. Ultimately, every life form is explained by common descent. The issue with convergent evolution becomes the question of just how far back you have to go to find the common ancestor between any two species. For similar creatures, say cats and dogs, it’s not as far back as for dogs and insects. There may be lineages where two lines develop similar adaptive features that don’t go all the way back to the common ancestor. Insects developed flight long before there were birds. Go back far enough and birds and insects have a common ancestor — common descent — but it is too far back to account for the similar adaptation — convergent. Of course, I suppose it’s easier to just say God done it, and leave it at that.”
ASALTYDOG: I understand perfectly well what you are saying. I also understand perfectly well when my questions aren’t answered. You are left with no argument for evolution based on homology. And so you suddenly point at the sky behind my back and say, “Wow, watch that bird over there!” I am not so easily distracted, Steve.
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SteveG: “Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof.”
ASaltyDog: “This is not how you speak when not challenged in this way. Or aren’t you the same guy who wrote, “Science DOES contradict [biblical revelation], and it HAS been proven false.” So can you or can you not prove common descent?”
SteveG: “Here you conflate two very different things. Let’s imagine that over the next ten years a series of discoveries prove that Darwin was absolutely wrong and evolution has been a red herring all this time. That would still not prove that Biblical Creationism is true. This is not an A or B choice, where if you prove one false the other must be true. You would still need positive evidence in favor of Creationism (or at least you would in order to show people skeptical of that view objective reasons why they should consider it.) Those of us who operate it the real world of natural law (or a God who operates consistently if you prefer) understand that the evidence does not support the idea of all life forms appearing at the same time, or within days of each other. There is no evidence of a global flood or a single global extinction. Human beings did not all speak the same language until a sudden catastrophic scattering and gave them all different ones. (And people having different languages doesn’t prevent them from communicating as the omniscient God mistakenly believed it would in the Tower of Babel story.) Even if we had no idea what did happen, even if our ideas about evolution turned out to be wrong, you would still not have evidence that Creation is the correct alternative. Before you go around accusing people of misrepresenting others’ views, you should look in the mirror. Thanks to the predictable laws of nature, I am sure you’ll see your own reflection.”
ASALTYDOG: How does not-proving common descent prove the Bible wrong? If not common descent, what proved the Bible wrong? You prove to me now that human beings did not all speak the same language. You prove to me now the global flood did not occur. You are the one making the assertion here, not I. “Biblical revelation has been proved false.” “Science does contradict biblical revelation.” And on top of that, how can you be sure I’ll see my own reflection on the mirror?
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ASaltyDog: “If you can [prove common descent], isn’t that unscientific? And if you cannot, what’s wrong with being a creationist?”
SteveG: “You are free to believe whatever you want to.”
ASALTYDOG: In other words you concede here that you can’t prove common descent. But you didn’t come to this forum to announce that you can’t prove common descent, that homologies aren’t evidence for common descent, and that creationists are free to believe whatever they want. No, you came to this forum to announce that “creationists really aren’t interested in the truth” and “refuse to acknowledge the observed facts of the real world” since “they deny a well-supported scientific theory”, and believe instead a view which “science DOES contradict”, which actually “contradicts what we see with our own eyes”, which therefore “HAS been proven false”, and which “should not be acceptable to anyone”, because “science trumps ancient myth, yes”, which means that “AIG and the ICR are rightly maligned” because “they spread misinformation and confusion about what the facts are”, and indeed “they represent about as blatant a case of ‘lying for Jesus’ as there is”, which in turns upsets you because “it is frustrating trying to talk about science and facts with people who avowedly are unwilling to even consider the possibility that they might be mistaken” (all emphasis yours).
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SteveG: “People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.”
ASaltyDog: “Cheap shot. Watch this: “People who prefer to believe in evolution probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 6000 years, and probably not even then.”
SteveG: “what’s cheap about it? Your converse is also true.”
ASALTYDOG: My point exactly. Cheap shot.
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ASaltyDog: “Why don’t you start with a Creator?”
SteveG: “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.”
ASaltyDog: “Except if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”?”
SteveG: “Nope. And you are just assuming that I do. You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.” ”
ASaltyDog: “Yeah, right. When have you seen natural laws the last time?”
SteveG: “Just now. I press keys on my keyboard and they cause the desired letters and words to appear on my screen. They do this because of known principles about physics and electronics, not because God is making the words appear.”
ASALTYDOG: Prove it. Rest assured you haven’t seen — ever — any natural law. You have seen only letters appear on your screen. And the formulas and diagrams you have in mind may describe (tentatively) how things work, not the reason. Nor can the formulas and diagrams tell you in advance what will happen the next time you press a key. So you don’t start with just what you can observe. So you do start with unproved assumptions, and interpret the facts accordingly. So you do start with the theory of evolution. So why don’t you start with a Creator?
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SteveG: “Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study.”
ASaltyDog: “Wow. And tell me, how does science get to know what the natural laws are in order to get the whole thing started?”
SteveG: “Observation. Measurement. Testing. Repeating. If something happens the same way every time when the same conditions apply, you have found a natural law.”
ASALTYDOG: I have? In your scenario, at what point do you quit repeating the test and call it a law? How do you know that testing one more time wouldn’t give a different result? How can you ever reach certainty that your keys will always fall to the ground if dropped? To say that they always fell in the past does not prove that they will always continue to fall. So in short how does “law” in your vocabulary differ from “fallible, unsubstantiated, unjustified, completely irrational generalization”? And since this must be what you mean by “law”, how does science, being based as you say on this completely irrational foundation, be trusted to tell us anything true? Why do you cherish a world view that destroys science? Christianity instead provides all the prerequisites and preconditions for making science possible. Judging from your writings, I thought you love science. So why aren’t you a Christian?
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SteveG: “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.”
ASaltyDog: “Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.”
SteveG: “If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet. Where is the fallacy?”
ASaltyDog: “Steve, you need to study basic concepts in logic, fast.”
NOTE by ASALTYDOG: At this point I can’t help noticing that although you have faithfully and exhaustively quoted me throughout, you again left out the rest of this particular paragraph of mine, which for the record ended with the following words: “Google for ‘affirming the consequent’. Then you’ll find you didn’t need to learn it — you are already a master of it.” Of course, this quiet but careful work of editing is most definitely NOT necessarily related to the fact that the next thing you want to do here is to make sure everybody understands that of course you have always been very familiar, possibly since you were in the womb, with the logical fallacy know as ‘affirming the consequent’. END OF THE NOTE.
SteveG: “Here you actually do have somewhat of a point. I am familiar with the error of affirming the consequent and your if-then series illustrates it; however, the scientific method is not guilty of it. And importantly, neither is my example. If I had said “When it rains, the ground gets wet. If the ground is wet, it must have rained,” THAT would be the logic error. I didn’t say that, however. My B statement was, “If the ground is wet, something made it wet.” Maybe rain. Maybe, as you noted earlier, melting snow. Maybe just dew. Maybe the fire department did come open all the hydrants during the night. But something caused the ground to be wet. As an illustration of natural law, it means the most probable cause can often be deduced. If it is the middle of summer in the tropics, no snow around, and you heard the rain falling overnight, you can be confident assuming the ground is wet because it rained. If there were clear skies all night, then the wetness is likely just a morning dew. So yes, I did overlook your description of the error, but I did not actually commit the error. So, score one-half point for you. Be proud.”
ASALTYDOG: For a moment here the whole world was holding its breath. Is the scientific method guilty of affirming the consequent? Fortunately then SteveG took the microphone and reassured everybody. No, it isn’t, he smiled. Whew! Thanks Steve! No need to bore us with an explanation of why it isn’t, of course. We just trust your word. That you were “familiar with the error of affirming the consequent” was not something you needed to point out, as I am sure most people here have noticed it a long time ago. And finally, the wet street example is MY example, not yours. Call me a drug addict any time you want, but don’t step on my blue suede shoes, and don’t start putting my stuff into your pockets. I won’t even accept “half-points” as payment for something that I don’t want to sell. What you said about the wet street is not your example, but a misrepresentation of my example. Which is also something that should drive me mad.
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SteveG: “We find fossilized creatures at different layers, and we find them consistently distributed that way. That’s evidence that they lived at different times, separated by millions of years.”
ASaltyDog: “This is one great example of your skill, kindof. If animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years, we would find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Now we DO find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Therefore these animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years. This may be the way evolutionists like to fool themselves into thinking they are whipping biblical creationism big time, but they are only exposing to the world their logical illiteracy.”
SteveG: “Even the most ardent evolutionary theorist would agree this is an inference. It is the most likely inference. It is supported by a host of other evidence beyond the geological distribution. But yes, if God wanted to distribute the fossils through the geological strata in a way that just makes it look like evolution is the best explanation — to trick us I guess so we won’t get saved and make heaven overcrowded — then nobody can prove that’s not what happened. So please, do go on believing in Creationism, your best evidence being “well nobody can prove it didn’t happen that way.”
ASALTYDOG: Sorry, but that is not the most likely inference. That may be the most likely inference if the theory of evolution is correct. If biblical creationism is correct, that is by no means the most likely inference. First you choose a world view, and then on the host of assumptions such a preference entails you decide which inferences are most likely. Your gathering a “host of other inference” does not impress me in the least since it is based on the assumption that the theory of evolution is true. If you think facts speak for themselves, and that it is possible to objectively gather, in the abstract, the most likely inferences, period, on such a topic as the prehistory of the world, which is not open to direct investigation, you have the epistemological sophistication of a wet sock. Finally, you certainly haven’t even come close to “proving it didn’t happen that way” (and your original boastful claim, which you were forced to eat, was that it is a fact that science has proved the Bible wrong). But please don’t come and tell me what my claims are. My claim is not that the evidence for believing in the Bible is simply negative (you can’t prove it wrong), although it is also that. I already told you that everything is evidence of the truth of the Bible.
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SteveG: “Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time.”
ASaltyDog: “Easy: the zoological, historical, and soteriological implications of the biblical revelation. In short, if dinosaurs and dogs didn’t live at the same time, I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, so therefore dinosaurs and dogs must have lived at the same time.”
SteveG: “Ha! You accuse me of a logic error and then offer as your evidence a theological claim that is in no way objectively observable. Quite rich. This is a rocking good joke.”
ASALTYDOG: You did objectively observe it, though, didn’t you? You can even dig deeper into it. You got what you asked for. What’s funny about it? Do you mean “drawing inferences” is okay for evolutionists but should be illegal for Christians?
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ASaltyDog: “Now my turn. Find me one shred of evidence that penguins and giraffes share the same habitat.”
SteveG: “Find me anyone who claims they do. Why should I try to provide evidence for claim no one makes?”
ASALTYDOG: I see. Find me then someone who claims that dinosaurs and dogs shared the same habitat. Checkmate.
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SaltyDog … my you are an interesting person.
I will go through this point by point as my time allows … probably tonight but maybe not until tomorrow … but I will make two quick points now.
First, I didn’t call you a drug addict. I asked whether you had, earlier in your life, used a lot of hallucigenic drugs. I was (and still am) rather perplexed at the denial of natural laws (although I will address your specific questions when I am able to put my longer response together.)
That said, it was a quip. A joke. Not a serious allegation. If you and I are to have any meaningful dialogue, you should know that my sense of humor leans toward the sarcastic. Yours seems to as well, so I think you understand what I’m saying.
I will try to refrain from making such jokes in the future, but you should understand to not take them seriously.
Secondly, a quick note on your final thought in the post above:
SteveG: “Find me anyone who claims they do. Why should I try to provide evidence for claim no one makes?”
ASALTYDOG: I see. Find me then someone who claims that dinosaurs and dogs shared the same habitat. Checkmate.
I didn’t say the same habitat, I said at the same time.
This is one of the many ways in which the observed facts do not support Biblical Creationism. See, if God created all the life on Earth over the span of a few days, then all these plants and animals lived at the same time. Some of them have obviously gone extinct in the time since, but they all started at the same time.
If it had happened that way, when we go looking for fossils buried in the Earth, we’d find them scattered all over with no particular order. We’d find the bones of dogs and the bones of dinosaurs at random depths. We’d find ostriches buried underneath mammoths.
Because all the species were created at once, there would be no way, and really no need, to try to figure out which ones lived at what points in the earth’s past because there would be no patterns. We might figure out that one species lived in this part of the world and another species lived on the other side of the world, but that would be all. We wouldn’t see any reason to think that one species lived and died long before another species even existed.
But that’s not the way it is. What we’ve discovered instead is that under the Earth’s surface are distinct layers (called strata) and we find the remains of species within certain strata and not within others. The layer that contains dinosaurs does not contain cats. The layer where we see w