The hopeful monster
Even though evolution is Fact and Proven and True, evolutionary scientists somehow keep wanting to come up with a new idea to prove it, even resurrecting old ideas that have already been discredited, scientists like Olivia Judson, writing for the Times. She writes about The Hopeful Monster Theory.
Anyone familiar with the problems of evolution should know the phrase “hopeful monster,” coined in the 1930s as a way to explain how evolution might happen instantly, rather than gradually. The idea here is that for most complicated genetic changes to occur in a creature, the creature needs to have billions of mutations, all occuring in his favor. What ends up happening is that evolution produces lots of hopeless monsters and only a few hopeful ones that go on to live and reproduce. The problem here is that we’ve never found the billions and billions of fossils in the ground that would show these billions of hopeful and hopeless monsters. This is one of my favorite arguments against evolution.
Here’s how it works: to get from, oh, a fish to a mammal – say a catfish to a cat – we need billions of changes over many generations. I mean, so many changes that one out of a million might be good mutations, rather than bad. All those mutations and changes over eons and ages should produce quite a lot of missing links, and that’s just for one type of fish evolving into a single other type of mammal. So when the Omniscient Narrator on the Discovery Channel says, “We may have found the missing link,” he’s lying to you. He’s really looking for millions and billions of missing links between every known creature and every other one. And we haven’t found any. Any. At all. Oh, we found old fishes with flippers that looked like fingers, and old birds with scaly skin like dinosaurs, but science always eventually determines that these creatures belong to this or that species and aren’t, in fact, linking anything to anything.

















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This is great. I get to post the first comment on what I predict – will be the week’s most active post. Courageously put out there Harrison.
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Norm P.
The most active post? It could be a close call between this post or Andree Seu’s piece “A Time to Speak”… but I think this one’ll win out.
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>>>Oh, we found old fishes with flippers that looked like fingers, and old birds with scaly skin like dinosaurs, but science always eventually determines that these creatures belong to this or that species and aren’t, in fact, linking anything to anything.<<<
Examples, please?
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Harrison, you apparently didn’t read the article past the headline, or if you did, didn’t really understand it.
It is most emphatically NOT about how “billions of mutations” can happen at once. It’s about how a single gene mutation can in some cases produce a fairly significant change in morphology. (The form of an organism.)
The reason the idea is coming back (and Judson is careful to note that most scientists don’t use the term; she as a science writer is free to do so) is that the new science of genetics is revealing information that scientists in the 1930s didn’t have available. As she writes:
The reason for the comeback is accumulating evidence that, in nature, some of the big changes in morphology that we see appear to be underpinned by changes to single genes. For example, one of the big differences between insects and their close relations, the crustaceans, is that insects usually have six legs (some butterflies have only four) whereas crustaceans are typically leggier, sometimes having more than twenty (lucky they don’t have to buy shoes). The difference seems to be due to a mutation in a gene known as Ultrabithorax. In fruit flies, this gene represses leg growth: in the parts of the embryo where the gene is turned on, you don’t grow legs. In crustaceans, the gene doesn’t repress leg growth. A series of elaborate experiments involving man-made gene products that are part-insect and part-crustacean has shown that the insect version of Ultrabithorax has acquired the ability to repress legs.
Finally, it would be nice if people who want to uphold Biblical Creationism would come up some evidence for Biblical Creationism rather than just trying to poke holes in evolutionary theory. Those efforts are almost always as misinformed as this one here.
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GALADRIEL:
http://www.dinosaur-world.com/feathered_dinosaurs/archaeopteryx_lithographica.htm
AND
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/tran-nf.html
—————
STEVEG,
In rhetoric, destroying the evidence of the opponent is a fine way to win an argument
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In rhetoric, destroying the evidence of the opponent is a fine way to win an argument
If you were actually doing that, sure.
But what you’re doing is snickering over “oh they’re bringing back this old idea that was discredited long ago” and not noticing that the reason it’s being talked about again is that a new set of discoveries has yielded significant new information.
That is not so much “destroying evidence of the opponent” as making your side look uninformed. Which is a great way to lose credibility.
But by all means, carry on.
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Hi Harrison
You sure are proud of being ignorant.
I’d like to invite you somewhere. I’ll sure invite those folks here. What fun! Smear the…. Well how about ‘educate the willfully ignorant’.
On a less snarkier note… it should be noted that the discovery of material inheritance utterly destroyed Goldschmidt’s hypotheses. GG Simpson reviewed some of Goldschmidt’s claims w.r.t. horse evolution in the classic ‘Tempo and Mode of Evolution’ and shows that his idea of determined or directed evolution to be inconsistent with the fossil record. Again, this was his pattern. The process was soon proven untenable by the discovery of chromosomes. There was no ‘place’ that genetic material might be ’stored’ for future speciation or radiation events.
Goldschmidt’s view does not support the blinkered dinosaurs-in-the-garden-of-eden and eight-people-and-a-boatload-of-animals idiocy either. i presume from the tone of your post and your previous dribbling attempts to formulate a coherent idea about biology that these views are likely representative of your own, which are (prove me wrong) religious views and completely ignorant of any and all pertinent scientific knowledge.
Go look up Zeno’s Paradox, then perhaps we can have a discussion about scale and ’sudden’ or ‘gradual’.
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Oh, we found old fishes with flippers that looked like fingers, and old birds with scaly skin like dinosaurs, but science always eventually determines that these creatures belong to this or that species and aren’t, in fact, linking anything to anything.
You misunderstand the nature of transition. Every creature that ever existed belongs to some species or other. Human beings categorize thing and any individual organism can be placed in a phylum, genus, species.
But at the same time, every organism that exists is a transitional form because life is always undergoing changes. You demand to see a transition D between species C and species E. But what you don’t grasp is that species C is already a transition between B and E. If eventually another species were determined to be species D, you’d demand to see the transitions between C and D and D and E.
A million years from now, there may well be a new species of mankind and today’s homo sapiens will be seen as the transitional form between the higher apes and that future-man.
If you could take a snapshot of life on earth at any specific point, you’d see existing ecosystems populated by organisms that thrive in those ecosystems, just as you see now. But if you could compare two such snapshots 100 million years apart, you’d see very different ecosystems and very different organisms … because life is always in transition.
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No one is destroying evidence. Evidence is the one thing that creationists and materialists all agree on. We only disagree on the interpretation of the evidence and the faith based systems that derive from that interpretation.
The most frustrating thing for evolutionists is the lack of a smoking gun. And so they must fend off pesky unbelievers whom they regard as Neanderthal dolts. There are no mutant life forms walking around, with partial organs and limbs becoming something grander. There are none (indisputably) in the fossil record either.
Pointing out a lack of evidence for someone’s belief system is not destroying evidence. It is simply being honest and helpful. Rather than receiving truth gladly, as any scientist should, evolutionists get defensive and abusive. Calling unbelievers stupid is pretty much all they’ve got to try and win the argument.
A gene that acts like a switch that turns on an elaborate mechanism to make a leg or not make a leg, means that the mechanism for making the leg is already present. This does not explain how pond scum evolved a mechanism for creating legs. After you wade through the mountains of literature written on the subject, it all boils down to the assertion, “Since we have legs, therefore they evolved”. That isn’t much to stand on.
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Galadriel asked: Examples, please?
Outkast says: Harrison’s point exactly. There are no (nada, zero) examples of transitional creatures.
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#8 …every organism that exists is a transitional form because life is always undergoing changes.
Your argument s goes like this: “Every organism is transitional, because it is”.
You organize fossils along a morphological continuum and then declare that a continuum exists. You declare that each fossil is merely a snapshot in time along a grand scale.
Well, that’s fine, but you haven’t proven anything. You’ve merely made an assertion. People who point this out are simply stating the obvious.
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OK, I’m going to propose we do something totally and uncharacteristically scientific here. Instead of, ahem, devolving into a discussion about the relative merits of Intelligent Design, how about we actually get some posts on the actual topic of “The Hopeful Monster”?
Why don’t some of you scientists tell what you believe and why? “Creationists are stupid” is boorish, boring, and leaves the real subject unaddressed.
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Xion, another testament to your wishful ignorance? half formed creatures huh? Why are there still monkeys? What about pygmies and dwarves? I know that you aren’t really that foolish, I wonder why you posture that way here.
Yesterday i was looking at some insects I had collected. Under my microscope was one such beast. I suppose I imagined it. Since such a beast does not and can not exist, I suppose I won’t bore you with the details (I know you would rather be harrumphing about the state of the world and flagellating yourself in your prayer closet).
I have seen big morphological changes in insect genitalia like this several times. Of course, I’ll be honest (try that sometime, HSK and Xion), I have no idea if this is evolutionarily important. But it’s clear that it COULD BE.
What you misunderstand is that observing a morphological continuum is AN OBSERVATION. the continuum exists, as YOU even implied in post 11. the mechanism proposed to EXPLAIN the continuum is evolution by speciation.
Your mechanism is POOF. An open invitation to stupidity and reality denial. You are welcome to it, my knowledge denying friend. Smoking gun indeed. Walks, talks, smells, swims, quacks, genes, lives in places, tastes like a duck. What more do you need, O Solipcist?
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Stubob excellent idea.
There is a long history of the debate regarding gradual vs ’sudden’ evolution. It stretches to before Darwin’s time and in some sense even today.
Please note that none of this discussion is consistent with the notion of a Young Earth, or Duh Flud. May as well go home if that is your view.
The most famous debate predated the re-discovery of Mendels genetic work. See W Provine ‘Origin of modern population genetics’ or something similar for a brief thorough and enjoyable read.
another aspect of this debate has centered around a particular eastern european philosophy of determinism that postulated that evolution was the inevitable consequence of natural laws. no such laws have been discovered, except in the trivial sense that living things are alive etc. Goldschmidt was a proponent of the determined view, which is ultimately a mechanical mysticism that was quite impotent when faced with the challenge of supporting contentions with empirical data. See SJ Gould for more regarding these issues (under topics orthogenetics, formalism, saltation, etc. His last book, Structure of Evolutionary Theory is the best treatment but rather long and big).
Punctuated equilibria is viewed by some (essentially those who misunderstand it) as a saltational view. It is not and has never been such an explanation, instead it is a recognition that parapatry is very likely the most important mode of speciation and that this by definition will be unlikely to be captured in the fossil record at any one place. things happen much more quickly and dramatically in small populations for a large number of reasons, none of which have to do with POOF.
It’s hard to understand what HSK’s point in all of this was, except that it was obvious that he wished to trumpet to the world that he is proud of his ignorance. I don’t get that.
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No, really. The topic has to do with the statistical implausibility of evolution resulting from random mutations.
So far, we’ve got “Xion’s a poop head.” That’s one approach, but it doesn’t really support random mutations adding up in a positive direction. So, where is the support?
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Xion: My point about the transitional nature of life forms is that Creationists are forever demanding “where are the transitional forms” as if they think there should be some obvious half-dinosaur half-bird fossil if birds really evolved from dinosaurs.
But it doesn’t work that way. The changes are subtle and gradual for the most part, and any individual you examine is a functional species in its own right. It’s only when you pull back and consider a very long span of time that you can see the changes in a larger context.
What sort of “smoking gun” do you imagine there should be? We know genes can mutate or change their function. We know that changes in genes lead to changes in the organism. We know that organisms that are well adapted for an environment survive to reproduce more often than competing, less well adapted organisms. We have a fossil record that accords, in terms of where in the geological strata fossils are found, with what evolutionary theory predicts. (The continuum is not made up, as you suggest. We don’t find fossils willy nilly at all layers and organize them on paper. They’re already organized, in the wild, because the creatures lived and died at different points in time.)
As has been said, find a fossil of a modern mammal in the same geological stratum as dinosaurs, and you’d disprove evolution. It’s never happened. If it does happen, the scientific world will have to deal with it, but until and unless it does, the theory is safe.
Evolution has all the elements of a very well supported scientific theory. The way to overturn it would be to come up with a better theory. Creationists have NO evidence for their ideas, so they act as if poking very small holes in evolution is somehow vindication for Creationism, even though most of those efforts are based in misinformation (as Harrison is doing here) and even though NONE of them constitute positive evidence for Creationism.
Where is your evidence that all life forms appeared suddenly at about the same time? Where is your evidence that the Universe is only a few thousand years old? Where is your evidence that there was ever a time when there was no death in the world? Where is your evidence that the various human cultures were spread around the Earth suddenly and miraculously (after the Tower of Babel?)
You have NONE … and yet you think a pinhole or two in evolutionary theory is enough to allow you to declare victory.
How do you justify that?
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Stubob at #12: OK, I’m going to propose we do something totally and uncharacteristically scientific here. Instead of, ahem, devolving into a discussion about the relative merits of Intelligent Design, how about we actually get some posts on the actual topic of “The Hopeful Monster”?
I suggest that that conversation should start with everyone reading the article that Harrison linked to. It doesn’t say what Harrison says it does.
The point of the article is that sometimes a change in a single gene can cause significant changes in an organism. One example the author presents is a gene that codes for the number of legs an organism has. In insects, it creates six legs. In aquatic creatures, the same gene codes slightly differently and the organisms have different numbers of legs.
This does not mean evolutionary theory is “wrong.” It is an illustration of how science progresses. Where scientists might once have assumed that such a morphological difference would require a large number of mutations, we know now that it’s simpler than that. It’s a textbook case of how scientists take new information — in this case from a relatively new field of study, genetics — and modify their ideas to take it into account.
Ironically, this actually strengthens evolutionary theory, because it means that such changes are easier to accomplish than was previously believed.
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There is a problem I have with the idea of gradual change leading to speciation, and I’m seriously asking here, not attacking.
Gradual changes in species result from random mutations, some of which are selected ‘out’ and some remain. I find a problem with this theory that I cannot explain.
If these changes are so gradual, how can the advantageous traits be consistently selected by evolutionary pressures from the less advantageous traits?
A limb that will eventually become a wing seems like it would be of little/no advantage until it reaches the point where it can achieve some sort of lift, at least for gliding or such. Why should that trait remain until it is large enough to be of use? That question is similar to the idea of “irreduceable complexity”, but I think it is more basic. And I really am curious what you guys think, I’m not trying to ’start something.’
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My personal favourite to counter both the “there are no transitional forms” and “irreducible complexity” arguments is the evolution of the eye.
Although I wouldn’t cite wikipedia, it’s a good jumping off point to get a basic understanding and citations for better sources.
Here is a link to evolution of the eye
The irreducible complexity argument, as I understand it, is that they eye has to have been created all-at-once. Partial eyes are not seen (pun intended) as being useful. But, it appears that there are a gamut of useful light-detection schemes ranging from simple light-sensitive spots, through pinhole-camera types, on through lens-less and finally fully developed vertebrate eyes. So much for irreducible complexity.
For transitional forms of creatures with these varying forms of “vision”, note that planaria have simple “cup” eyes, and the nautilus has a “pinhole-camera” eye.
So, and as SteveG points out at #8, the transitional forms that creationists demand aren’t something that existed only in the past, but are in fact all around us. Evolution isn’t an event that happened, it is a process that is happening, an important distinction in verb tenses.
Also, it means that Xion in #9 is just plain wrong, in stating, “There are no mutant life forms walking around, with partial organs and limbs becoming something grander.” But in fact, there are clearly organisms with partial eyes, along the continuum as listed above. Not walking, true, but they are definitely around.
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“The topic has to do with the statistical implausibility of evolution resulting from random mutations.”
That has nothing to do with the topic of ‘hopeful monsters’ and nothing to do with the article. The ’statistical implausibility’ is a function of an inappropriate statistical model.
There is a great deal of evidence regarding evolution by simple mutations. nylon polymerase. disease resistance. I’m not sure what caused the insect genitalia to be so dramatically different in the specimens I was referring to, but I am rather certain what species the insect is (genitalia is a diagnostic) and it is clear that multiple things were different from the type specimens. Mutation or development? those are not mutually exclusive.
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Jack Stowage at #18: Gradual changes in species result from random mutations, some of which are selected ‘out’ and some remain. I find a problem with this theory that I cannot explain.
If these changes are so gradual, how can the advantageous traits be consistently selected by evolutionary pressures from the less advantageous traits?
A limb that will eventually become a wing seems like it would be of little/no advantage until it reaches the point where it can achieve some sort of lift, at least for gliding or such. Why should that trait remain until it is large enough to be of use?
There are a couple of different reasons. For one, the selection isn’t always for positive changes. Purely neutral changes — things that don’t help but also don’t harm — likely would persist because the organism can do just fine with them.
The other reason is that a structure may have a use even before it has reached the form we’re accustomed to. While the specific evolutionary sequence leading to the modern wings of birds is not precisely known, some birds that can’t fly — either ever or when young — can increase their running speed by flapping their wings.
So a partial wing in the distant past could have allowed predators to more successfully capture prey, by allowing them to run faster than competing species without the proto-wings. As they succeeded and thrived, a few more slight modifications could have allowed the wings to provide sufficient lift for flight.
The evolution of the eye, which ChristianLeftist mentioned in #19, is another case. It’s true that the modern eye and its linkae to the brain that makes it possible to perceive imaes and understand what they are is quite complex. But a simple ability to sense to the difference between light and dark would have aided survivability in an ancient organism. It’s not necessary to have the whole assemblage in place right at the start.
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Even a primitive light/dark sensor would require the synthesis of dozens of specific proteins in a specific sequence, without which the whole thing is useless. Primitive eyes don’t disprove irreducible complexity. Rather, the retinol/Vitamin A cycle supports it.
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22 posts and no answers to the question: Where is the evidence?
It’s not a hard question and I do appreciate all the educated dancing around with eyes, wings, running faster, etc., but where is the evidence?
A became C because of changes to A. Supposedly there is a B between because the significant changes didn’t happen all at once—or maybe they did because a significant gene went dead or whatever—but we still have no B. We have A and we have C, but B just isn’t there. Why not? A and C are significantly different enough to expect the changes between A and B to be at least discernible as should be the changes between B and C, but without B we have nothing.
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ROND
If we had B, you’d demand to know where are A1 and B1 to get to C.
And if we had those, you’d demand to know where are A2 and B2.
People who ask this question will not be satisfied unless we could somehow produce the fossil remains of every individual organism from A to Z, and maybe not even then.
It’s a bogus question. Maybe you don’t understand why it is, but it is.
Where is your evidence — ANY evidence — for Biblical creationism? The evidence for evolution is not complete. The evidence for Creationism does not exist at all. Which makes the stronger case?
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What sort of “smoking gun” do you imagine there should be?
How about the half man/half ape creatures Evolutionist have celebrated over the years as the “missing link” that were later found to be frauds?
Why would they have gone to such great lengths to create (pun intended) such frauds if it wasn’t necessary to produce one?
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If we had B, you’d demand to know where are A1 and B1 to get to C.
Whatever. We should have millions and millions of failed transitional fossils if Evolution truly occurred. Where are they?
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SteveG, are you saying that we already see transitional forms, or that transitional forms are unnecessary?
BTW, this statement, For one, the selection isn’t always for positive changes. Purely neutral changes — things that don’t help but also don’t harm — likely would persist because the organism can do just fine with them is flatly contradicted by evolutionary theory. You’re positing that certain “neutral” mutations may appear, persist, and prove useful after combining with some future, random mutation?
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SteveG, are you saying that we already see transitional forms, or that transitional forms are unnecessary?
Every form IS a transitional form. Including the forms that exist today. ChristianLeftist put it very well in #19: Evolution isn’t something that has happened in the past; it IS happening now.
The more fossils we find, the more gaps we can bridge. Unfortunately that means that where we once had species D and species F with one gap between them, we now have species D and E and F with two gaps for the nabobs like Outkast to demand to know where are those TWO missing transitions?
And if we find them and have D and D1 and E and E1 and F, well, where are those FOUR missing transitions?
flatly contradicted by evolutionary theory. You’re positing that certain “neutral” mutations may appear, persist, and prove useful after combining with some future, random mutation?
How is it contradicted?
Evolutionary theory, at its simplest, just says that organisms change over time and when they change in ways that increase their ability to survive, those species that survive best thrive and become dominant. A neutral change that doesn’t help or hurt survivabilty might or might not be retained–it won’t be selected FOR, but it won’t be selected against either.
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Alright, I over-spoke on the “flatly contradicted” bit. Given how much of each species’ DNA is never expressed, I suppose there’s room in there for all kinds of presently unexpressed variation.
BUT, I don’t buy that the mutations necessary to get from “no organ of sight” to “primitive eye,” minus one more mutation, were ever hanging around awaiting one individual with the mutation that made the whole thing work.
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SteveG, you are right, and I’ll go further. If evolution was gradual, then you’ll have to show me that A1a, A1b, A1c, etc. really existed. Instead the existing fossils show quite distinct species. As other people have pointed out, you are still asserting without proving. You are basically saying that transitional forms exist because they exist.
Erasmus is getting close when he talks about mutated insects, but will those mutated specimens thrive and will they reproduce? And if they do, will they eventually form a new species, or will they be just a subspecies? (I realize the distinction is arbitrary but it is important, because lots of Creationists readily accept the fact that species have changed.)
So, SteveG, historically speaking, which museums hold the millions of fossils of obvious in-between creatures that gradual evolution produced? And if those fossils don’t exist, then we are back to the topic of the thread: Punctuated Equilibrium.
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Kyle A: If evolution was gradual, then you’ll have to show me that A1a, A1b, A1c, etc. really existed. Instead the existing fossils show quite distinct species.
OK, you tell me then: What characteristics would distinguish a “transitional fossil” from a “quite distinct species?” In what way should a transitional form differ from a distinct species?
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And while you’re at it, show me where to find the evidence for the sudden appearance of all life forms a few thousand years ago. It must be obvious, right? Where is it?
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I guess the heart of my objection is twofold:
that if evolution is limited to gradual changes, those gradual changes seem likely to fall below the level of general ‘background noise’ of general predator/prey relationships and other potential sources of evolutionary pressures and selection is a great part ‘chance’
and regardless of that first point, it seems very likely that many traits that appear advantageous in a mature state may physically ‘had’ to have been disadvantageous in some theoretical less-mature state. The eye example was good. As a thought experiment, if you attempt to ‘devolve’ an ‘advanced’ version of an eye, I can imagine how it’s predecessors may have ‘had’ to pass through stages where (for at least some length of time) worked ‘worse’ than the prior model… kinda like XP and Vista…
Now, I realize that I use this example without fully looking into the eye (or other examples) to see how the evidence really looks, but I intend to, now that it’s been raised.
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“It’s a bogus question. Maybe you don’t understand why it is, but it is.”
I demand no A1, A2, A3, or B1, B2, B3, or C1, C2, C3 or starting from/going to any specific level of A, B, or C. Just any one individual clearly identified as B will be fine—you choose which one. Whatever level it is, as B it will show changes easily identified as coming from A and will explain how C came to have it’s characteristics which are radically different from those of A.
That’s not hard, it’s not bogus and it should be there in your freezer, rock box or whatever.
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“Evolution isn’t something that has happened in the past; it IS happening now.”
That makes it even easier. Produce a live or recently deceased link between A and C and there’ll be no need to explain why your rocks all look alike.
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Rond:
I demand no A1, A2, A3, or B1, B2, B3, or C1, C2, C3 or starting from/going to any specific level of A, B, or C. Just any one individual clearly identified as B will be fine—you choose which one. Whatever level it is, as B it will show changes easily identified as coming from A and will explain how C came to have it’s characteristics which are radically different from those of A.
The bolded part is part of why it’s bogus. Here is a sequence of species showing the path taken in bird wings, but due to the incompleteness of the fossil record, there are gaps of several millions of years in between each example.
You are asking for a species that clearly fits in between an A and B? The archaeopteryx fits in between the velociraptor and modern birds. It’s a B. There even are some A1s and B1s on this page.
But I already know that won’t satisify the “gaps” people. Because there are gaps, and due to the realities of science, there always will be gaps. And the more examples come to light to fill in the gaps just create more gaps. Smaller gaps, but more of them.
But while I’m at it, Here is a link to a few more sequences.
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I’m just posting to run up the total for Harrison. I have been pretty hard on him and hope to make him a winner for mosts posts this week. His poetry still is still ‘just fair prose’
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Another “all or none” example is reproduction. There are several kinds of asexual reproduction and one kind of sexual reproduction (more or less).
In order for a sexual species to arise from an asexual species, dozens of complimentary mutations would have to occur in two individuals at exactly the same time in exactly the same place. Doesn’t this present some challenges for the “evolution by chance mutation” theory?
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SteveG: “But I already know that won’t satisify the ‘gaps’ people.”
Right, and it shouldn’t. It’s like telling me to believe in the Yeti without showing me the actual Yeti. You want us to believe in evolution without there being physical evidence of evolution (actual physical evidence that the process occurred). Talk about faith!
There’s no qualitative difference between accepting evolution on fatih and accepting creation on faith.
Here’s a clumsy analogy. If you showed me a horse cart and told me that the automobile evolved from it, I might be willing to consider the possibility, but I would not be convinced until you showed me the various stages that were in between. I think that would make it clear how the evolution occurred and prove that it did.
It’s a bad analogy because horse cart to automobile is like chimpanzee to human, but you want me to believe in something like worm to human. It’s also a bad analogy because the horse cart and the various transitional stages to the modern automobile were designed and built by intelligent people, and you want me to believe that organisms far more complex just appeared and developed on their own.
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“Evolution isn’t something that has happened in the past; it IS happening now.”
That makes it even easier. Produce a live or recently deceased link between A and C and there’ll be no need to explain why your rocks all look alike.
Rond, your challenge is too easy.
Go back to my post #19, and please do check out the link. They pinhole-camera eye of the nautilus is an intermediate link in eye development between eye-spots as in planaria, and fully developed eyes.
The transitional forms aren’t just in the fossil record, they’re all around us. In fact, they are us.
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Kyle A: Right, and it shouldn’t. It’s like telling me to believe in the Yeti without showing me the actual Yeti. You want us to believe in evolution without there being physical evidence of evolution (actual physical evidence that the process occurred). Talk about faith!
Yep, see? You asked for a B in an A-B-C sequence. I showed it to you. Now you say no, there must be more.
It’s more like my showing you a photograph of the Yeti and you insisting on seeing a movie .. and then being shown a movie and demanding to see one in a zoo … and then seeing one in a zoo and demanding to be allowed to dissect it … and so on.
Where is evidence for the sudden appearance of all life forms in a span of a few days? You keep going on on about weaknesses in the evidence for evolution but you can present NO evidence for sudden and special Creation. If you could, you would have. Instead the Creationists somehow never even seem to see the question, no matter how many times I ask it.
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Oh, and just so I can tweak the noses of the pure materialists, the more I learn about evolution, the more awed I am by God’s power and creativity.
Evolution seems to me an incredibly complex and beautiful mechanism that He’s created, so that He can continue creating (or allowing evolution to create, same thing) new species. Even better, He has given us the ability to understand, in part, how He creates.
Changing slightly what I said in 19, “Creation isn’t an event that happened, it’s a process that is happening”
I’ll have my cake, and eat it too, thanks!
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It is difficult to resolve any particular perspective of reality with the platonic essentialism that is at the heart of this issue.
Christianists and others believe are essentialists. This is evident by the high frequency of arguments here on worldblog advanced in favor of human exceptionalism, ie that we are different from other animals by intrinsic characters that define human-ness.
the most amazing insight of darwin’s work was that this is an incorrect hypothesis. populations species and communities change: there can be no essence if there is change.
it is true that those who demand ‘missing links’ to fill ‘gaps’ see each link as constructing two gaps. It is also true that these people are misrepresenting, albeit perhaps in their ignorance of biology, what evolution really entails. talking about speciation and the development of wings in the same sentence is sloppy thinking.
punctuated equilibria suggested that major morphological changes occurred during speciation. the mode of speciation that fit fossil record best was the parapatric mode envisioned first by Darwin but fully extended by Mayr. IT IN NO WAY IS A THEORY OF POOF, Kyle.
Kyle, evolution is not accepted on faith, unless by faith you mean the sort of ordinary mundane faith as that the light will come on when you flip the switch or that your rear end is clean when the toilet paper is dry. You know, the faith that causes you to swing at a ball or to close your eyes when you shave? That is hardly faith akin to believing in Sky Beast with no evidence, the kind of faith it takes to ‘believe’ in evolution is the sort of faith that causes one to check the battery when the car doesn’t start (and not pray about it). It works. organisms have similar DNA. evolution suggests why that is the case. no other theory does (i use theory lightly here, for there ARE NO OTHER THEORIES).
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Christianleftist, you’re moving the goalposts. Is the pinhole eye a transitional form or a debunker of irreducible complexity?
In a comic book sort of way, I suppose you could call it a transitional form. But it’s irreducibly complex. Again, the inexplicable jump is from “no organ of sight” to “some light-sensing organ.”
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What would the transitional forms look like?
On a large scale, you would be able to line them up side by side and it would be clear that small changes occurred that caused the first to evolve into the second, the second into the third, and so on. You can’t convince me by just showing that certain organisms are similar or speculating that one could have evolved into the other.
On a microscopic scale you would have to show me how a genetic mutation caused the changes that occurred as each specimen evolved into the other. Showing me two organisms with hundreds of differences in their DNA sequences doesn’t convince me that those differences came about gradually.
Some of you are using circular reasoning. You are basically saying that you know transitional forms exist because you know that evolution is occurring and you know that evolution is occurring between transitional forms exist. But you haven’t shown that any obvious transitional forms, in an unbroken sequence, exist. So much for science being based only on observable fact!
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Did you even bother to follow the links I provided in #36? Many good examples of transitional sequences there.
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So basically Kyle A, you won’t believe evolution unless you can see it happen in real time with your own eyes?
That’s basically level of proof you’re demanding.
Where is your evidence for sudden special Creation? Find any yet?
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Who cares about “the hopeful monster.” This is an obscure debate about changes in life form that will never really be settled by either side. The important point is to distinguish between the truths of the narrow field of evolution and the metaphysical claims of naturalism and materialism that most of these Darwinists are trying to prove in order to justify their various forms of pelvic freedom.
I have no problem with the truly empirical claims of evolution, though these claims don’t begin to establish any Darwinian philosophical claim of naturalism or materialism. Evolutionary theory has no compelling proof of the origin of organic life including even a single cell, to say nothing of the creation of life, mind and the soul.
I’m afraid that Harrison has involved himself in the weeds of a dubiously interesting field of evolution and allowed some of the obsessive and humorless Darwinists to parade their dismal scientific knowledge.
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Evolutionary theory has no compelling proof of the origin of organic life including even a single cell, to say nothing of the creation of life, mind and the soul.
evolutionary theory isn’t about the origin of anything. It’s about change in what already exists.
No matter how often this is pointed out, it never seems to sink in.
Darwinists are trying to prove in order to justify their various forms of pelvic freedom.
Right.
Where is your evidence of special Creation?
Or do you just insist on Creation in order to justify your various forms of repressing and controlling other people’s pelvic freedom?
Why don’t you leave the cynical dismissal of imaginary motives aside and deal with the facts?
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Solon, speaking of dismal and humourless, you sure are a dour old bird. I’ll agree with you that Goldschmidtian evolutionary biology is dubious. There are some important points that he and the other formalists were right about, especially the notion of constraints.
But I’m just curious as to what pelvic freedoms you mean? Surely you are not so foolish as to suppose that support for good science is driven by sexual desires (I know you well enough to know that no rhetorical tactic is too dishonest or underhanded for you to use in ad hominem broadsides).
I’ll go you one further. Evolutionary biology has absolutely no compelling evidence regarding the origin of the sun, why water should be made of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, or (believe it or not, this is true: note that psychologists are not biologists) why you have chosen to believe in Sky Beasts.
Kyle if one were to extend the same burden of proof to anything else in the world nothing would ever be done. It’s called s**t or get off the pot. All you are doing is justifying your denial of science because it conflicts with what you perceive to be revealed knowledge from Sky Beasts. Circular reasoning indeed.
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evolutionary theory isn’t about the origin of anything. It’s about change in what already exists.
If that was true, there’d be very little debate. Unfortunately, the science of evolutionary biology got its start in a little book called The Origin of Species.
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by SteveG 01.24.08 at 2:45 pm
Did you even bother to follow the links I provided in #36? Many good examples of transitional sequences there.
All I see are animals already fully formed and functioning. It is only a theory that links them together. Arguing from the theory of Creation, we will not see transitional fossils in the fossil record. We don’t need to create elaborate theories to show what the fossil record already shows – no transitional fossils.
We have no problem with small changes over time – that is certainly observable and undeniable. It’s just a stretch to say that major changes occurred over time just because it is conceivable.
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#51: you are showing a glimmer of understanding. quick, i’ll blow on that tiny spark.
Darwin wished to understand how one species may become another species. Hence the origin of the title of the book.
Note it was not ‘The origin of life’. Nor ‘God doesn’t exist so hump what you will’ (that is for grimfaced doddering old solon. cheer up old chap! Wheel of Fortune at 7!)
#52 what ‘Theory of Creation’ are you referencing? the theory of Poof!? The theory of Allah Did It? The Theory that we live in the matrix and nothing is real? The theory that the universe is contained within the mind of a sleeping giant? There IS NO THEORY OF CREATION.
But prove me wrong, I’d love to see it.
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A prominent evolutionary biologist has weighed in on the misunderstandings promoted in this article.
http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/01/24/hopeless_monstersa_guest_post.php
Good read, although I disagree with Coyne regarding Gould and PE and also about the importance of hybridization and gene flow wrt to speciation, I recommend this article to those who are interested in biology.
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SteveG evolutionary theory isn’t about the origin of anything. It’s about change in what already exists.
Then why is it that Darwin’s magnum opus was titled Origin of the Species and many of his leading followers including Huxley, Dawkins, Dennet et al prattle on incessantly about Darwin’s theory of evolution as a proof of naturalism, materialism, and atheism?
Why is it, also, that most scientists outside the field of evolutionary biology are content to do work within the proper empirical and theoretical domain of science without engaging in theological or philosophical controversy? Also, there is a significant number of theistic evolutionists, though there voices are made null by the cacophony of the fanatical Darwinists.
The fact is that the fanatical Darwinists, as opposed to the empirical evolutionists, have involved themselves involved themselves in polemical metaphysics way outside of their depth. The whole thing is risible.
Or do you just insist on Creation in order to justify your various forms of repressing and controlling other people’s pelvic freedom?
We insist on Creation both on Biblical and philosophical grounds, including the reality of God’s moral law that regards forms of pelvic freedom outside marriage between men and women as a disorder of human nature and as grave sin that leads as a fact of life to human misery.
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StuBob at #51:
If that was true, there’d be very little debate. Unfortunately, the science of evolutionary biology got its start in a little book called The Origin of Species.
The origin of species from other species. Not the original start of life, consciousness, mind, etc.
Stop being deliberately thick. You have to know that you’re mixing up two entirely different things here.
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SteveHu at #52: All I see are animals already fully formed and functioning. It is only a theory that links them together. Arguing from the theory of Creation, we will not see transitional fossils in the fossil record.
To call it “only” a theory tells me you don’t understand the meaning of the word “theory” as a term of art (as opposed to its common usage.)
Animals “fully formed and functioning” ARE TRANSITIONAL FORMS!! What else do you think they should be? How many times does it have to explained to you that there is no such thing as a “transitional form” that is different from any other organism? It is a false concept that doesn’t exist in the science.
It does not even seem like a particularly complicated idea to me.
There is no “theory of Creation.” Further indication you don’t understand the word.
If God did create all lifeforms at once over the span of a few days a “theory of Creation” would predict that we would find their remains in the earth all jumbled together. They would all have lived at the same time so there would be no separation of distinct groups into different layers of the Earth based on how many millions of years apart they lived.
That, however, turns out to be completely wrong. Poof goes your “theory” of Creation.
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Steve,
OK, I’ll accept that it’s hard to produce a B—apparently impossible as your links and others to them complain—but I’m not asking for two or more, just one out of all that must exist from any genus. If you don’t have one, then I’m sorry—life is hard and sometimes you just don’t close the sale.
I am curious though . . . your link showing the transitional timeline of the wing from the Sinosauropteryx to the modern bird wing of present runs right through the KT boundary in which life on earth was apparently impossible because the heat thrown up by the asteroid, which engulfed the atmosphere, was likened to a broiler unit in an oven baking the earth to the point of melting rock for a decade. Also it seems that the debris thrown up encapsulated that heat against the earth, trapping it, as well as not allowing any sunlight to penetrate to the surface thus killing all plant life that might have survived—i.e. food for the food of birds.
If the earth was void (oops, a mystical Biblical term) of life 65 MYA how did the continuum of this ever progressing wing happen? Wasn’t there a life “reset” 65 MYA to any progress evolution had made up to that point—meaning that we were back to the primordial soup waiting for a lightening strike since no evidence of anything before made it through the KT boundary? And, if so, wouldn’t that compress recent evolutionary transition making change more apparent between A and C as it lost a couple of hundred million years of working time yet caught back up? But, yet here we are—as Erasmus would say—steeped in change. How about one of those Bs, or are they just too hard as well?
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Stop being deliberately thick. You have to know that you’re mixing up two entirely different things here.
You flatter me, thinking my thickness is deliberate. BUT, I’m NOT mixing up two different things if, as evolution apologists on wmb constantly assert, there is no distinction between “micro” and “macro” evolution.
Besides, when SteveG says “evolution isn’t about the origin of anything,” I’m assuming he means “anything,” including species.
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StuBob (#59) … the assertion was that evolution doesn’t explain the “origin of organic life including even a single cell, to say nothing of the creation of life, mind and the soul.” (#48)
I replied that it doesn’t even attempt to explain those things because it’s not about the origin of things … by which I meant, it’s not about the origin of organic life, or the mind or the cell … it’s about how things develop and change. (#49) … I figured my meaning would be clear since I was directly responding to #48.
But then you and Peter Leavitt both pounced on the word “origin” in the title of Darwin’s book … but that, of course, specifically refers to the origin of species. That is, it refers to the way a species arises from another species through natural forces … NOT the origin of life in the first place.
So if your thickness was not deliberate, then I stand corrected. However, you are most certainly confliating two separate things based on the cheap rhetorical trick of identifying a word in common and failing to notice the different ways in which it is applied.
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Rond at #58: I am curious though . . . your link showing the transitional timeline of the wing from the Sinosauropteryx to the modern bird wing of present runs right through the KT boundary in which life on earth was apparently impossible because the heat thrown up by the asteroid, which engulfed the atmosphere, was likened to a broiler unit in an oven baking the earth to the point of melting rock for a decade. Also it seems that the debris thrown up encapsulated that heat against the earth, trapping it, as well as not allowing any sunlight to penetrate to the surface thus killing all plant life that might have survived—i.e. food for the food of birds.
If the earth was void (oops, a mystical Biblical term) of life 65 MYA how did the continuum of this ever progressing wing happen?
Hmmm … I don’t remember the event as having been quite so apocalyptic. If I recall right, something like 50 or 60 percent of the organisms that were known to exist immediately prior to the event apparently didn’t survive it. That means 40 or 50 percent did.
This was the event that is widely believed to have caused the dinosaurs to finally go extinct, clearing the way for smaller animals including mammals and modern birds to become far more dominant.
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“Evolutionary biology has absolutely no compelling evidence regarding the origin of the sun, why water should be made of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, or … why you have chosen to believe in Sky Beasts.”
Well actually, there are a few prominent atheists who would disagree with you. Evidently, according to them, our moral beliefs are an evolved thing. So cannot metaphysical beliefs be evolved as well? Time will only tell whether one belief system will benefit the species or not… I imagine some of us are in for either a rude awakening or an abrupt end of knowing anything.
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As I follow this “debate” here on WMB, I find it rather humorous that so far the argument of the anti-evolutionists largely goes unanswered except for “everyone who disagrees is a poophead” or the “you just don’t understand the theory” type of comment.
That’s not much of an argument… I remain unconvinced for some reason.
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SteveG, Darwin in titling his book Origin of Species must have known that this would be a provocative title. In fact it was a sly way of implying that he was a writing a book about Genesis. His colleague, the scientist Sedgewick, in fact talked to him that in writing a supposedly scientific alternative explanation of Creation he had placed himself on precarious and controversial ground.
While Darwin professed to be an agnostic, the fact is that virtually every atheist cites Darwin’s theory of evolution as the alternative explanation for evolution. Also, the contemporary advocates of sexual “freedom,” especially Foucault, cite Darwin for proof that men are mere descendants of ordinary animals. While men do have common physical descent from animals, they, also, have qualities of mind and spirit that make them qualitatively quite distinct from animals. We know this from both the Bible and practical reason.
Personally, I agree with scientists including Asa Gray in Darwin’s time and Francis Collins today and many other Christian scientists that a credible case can be made for both Genesis and empirical evolution.
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OK, ignoring original origins for the moment, what about those random mutations and photosensitive organs? Or sexual reproduction?
I did well enough in biology to get accepted to medical school, but I remain unconvinced that the jump from photo-insensitive to photosensitive or from asexual to sexual can be explained on the basis of random mutations.
But then, I’ve never solved a Rubik’s Cube, so I have no confidence in random events.
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Didn’t you mean; ….the fact is that virtually every atheist cites Darwin’s theory of evolution as the alternative explanation for creation?
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If God did create all lifeforms at once over the span of a few days a “theory of Creation” would predict that we would find their remains in the earth all jumbled together. They would all have lived at the same time so there would be no separation of distinct groups into different layers of the Earth based on how many millions of years apart they lived.
Why, according to evolution, should there be distinct groups in different layers? Shouldn’t it be a gradient of change in these layers, not distinct groups? But perhaps that’s only a miswording on your part, and things do in fact look that way.
Anyway, we certainly would expect all creatures to be jumbled together in the same area, with the extinct ones not appearing as close to the surface. However, this idea has a problem. This problem is the global flood described in Genesis. If the earth had no such disasters, we should not expect to find many fossils after only 6,000-10,000 years. But a flood of such magnitude would disturb vast amounts of sediment and thereby bury billions of creatures, sealing them off from air. This would also result in a layered effect, as more aquatic creatures would be at the bottom, with fast-moving land-dwellers at the top. This would be expected from the flood’s movement from the oceans to the mountaintops and back. Or so I understand it.
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Incidentally, I object to the theistic evolutionist’s portrayal of evolution as “beautiful”. Evolution is a hideous, cutthroat process. Why would God use that to get to humankind rather than just creating humankind? But then, I suppose the assumption is that we’re still changing. But why would God make things that way at all? It’s clumsy and relies on lots and lots of death. Death before sin in itself raises obvious moral objections, though moral objections don’t really determine fact.
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Make It Man, thanks for correcting that error.
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Peter Leavitt at #64 (amended): While Darwin professed to be an agnostic, the fact is that virtually every atheist cites Darwin’s theory of evolution as the alternative explanation for [Creation].
That is true. Most atheists, or at least the ones who think about the question at all, accept evolution. Since they don’t believe in any gods, they can’t really appeal to magical creation, and there are no other viable scientific theories, so evolution is pretty much it.
But the converse is not necessarily true. That is, while most atheists accept evolution, most of those who accept evolution are NOT atheists. Or at least, that has not yet been proved.
As for the title of Darwin’s book, it doesn’t matter? The theory of evolution does not now and never has addressed the ultimate start of life. Biologists do of course think about that and there are some hypotheses about it, but they are separate endeavors from evolution.
To use an analogy, evolution is about cars developed from Model Ts and Model As into today’s diversity of makes and models. It doesn’t address the original invention of the car.
My statement that evolution isn’t about the origin of “anything” was directly in response to the allegation that it can’t explain the origin of life, or the cell, or the mind or the soul. I would have thought that was clear from the context, but in any event I’ve explained it clearly now multiple times.
I will gladly defend any position I take, but I’m not going to be pressed to defend positions that others have invented for me.
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Make It Man at #63: As I follow this “debate” here on WMB, I find it rather humorous that so far the argument of the anti-evolutionists largely goes unanswered except for “everyone who disagrees is a poophead” or the “you just don’t understand the theory” type of comment.
Funny. I see the exchange as going more like this.
Creationist: You can’t show me a single transitional form.
Evolutionist: Here are several examples.
C: No they aren’t.
E: What do you mean? It’s right there.
C: I don’t see it.
E: Have you looked at the link?
C: Yes. I just see animals. No transitions.
E: They’re all transitions.
C: No they’re not. Transitional forms would be pink with purple spots.
E: Huh?
C: So there are no transitional forms.
E: Who said they would be pink with purple spots?
C: That’s what they would be if they existed.
and so on
Make It Man, it’s legitimate to tell people they don’t understand the theory if they’re repeatedly demanding to be shown something the theory never said would be there and refusing to accept that they have a mistaken expectation.
The transitional forms issue is a case in point. Evolutionary theory holds that life is always undergoing changes, and that any form that exists at any given time evolved from and earlier one and will evolve into a future one. But while it is the current form, it’s a functioning organism in its own right.
To be told repeatedly that a “real” transitional form would have half-formed structures or be half one thing and half another is frustrating … those things really don’t exist, but no one who understands the theory would agree that they should. It just doesn’t work that way.
The archaeopteryx is the oldest known bird, and it still has a beak full of sharp teeth left over from its ancestors. It’s about as close to the kind of transitional form that the Creationists are expecting as we have, but still they say “it’s a bird with teeth.”
Meanwhile, the Creationists are smugly insisting that they know evolution can’t be true because of this or that weakness they point out. Therefore they say Creationism must be true … even though they can produce no positive evidence for Creation whatsoever.
So to recap: Evolution has a lot of supporting evidence with a few weaknesses — it must be false. Creationism has zero evidence — so it must be true.
I don’t understand how people can’t see the glaring logic error there.
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SteveG, the problem with Darwin is that some of the the “others” whom you talk about have wreaked havoc in the world using his proposition of the survival of the fittest. Richard Weikart has written a recent scholarly volume, From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany, that traces a clear line of thought from Darwin to the eugenics movement of past years. The following is from a dustjacket of this book:
In this compelling and painstakingly researched work of intellectual history, Richard Weikart explains the revolutionary impact Darwinism had on ethics and morality. He demonstrates that many leading Darwinian biologists and social thinkers in Germany believed that Darwinism overturned traditional Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment ethics, especially those pertaining to the sacredness of human life. Many of these thinkers supported moral relativism, yet simultaneously exalted evolutionary “fitness” (especially in terms of intelligence and health) as the highest arbiter of morality. Weikart concludes that Darwinism played a key role not only in the rise of eugenics, but also in euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial extermination, all ultimately embraced by the Nazis. He convincingly makes the disturbing argument that Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian principles rather than nihilistic ones. From Darwin to Hitler is a provocative yet balanced work that should encourage a rethinking of the historical impact that Darwinism had on the course of events in the twentieth century.
You and other fundamentalist followers of Darwin seem blithely unaware of the consequence of Darwin’s thought.
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Peter Leavitt at #72: ,i>You and other fundamentalist followers of Darwin seem blithely unaware of the consequence of Darwin’s thought.
I’m aware of it. But what relevance does it have to the question of whether it is true?
The only criterion for accepting or rejecting idea should be whether it’s true, or on the right track to truth. A lie may be prettier, but it’s still a lie.
The fact that evil people can take an idea and use it to justify evil acts doesn’t make the idea factually wrong. I don’t buy the argument from consequence as a reason to perpetuate a falsehood and suppress the truth.
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Cuthalion at #67; Why, according to evolution, should there be distinct groups in different layers? Shouldn’t it be a gradient of change in these layers, not distinct groups? But perhaps that’s only a miswording on your part, and things do in fact look that way.
Well there are gradients but the point is that there are identifiable epochs. The lifeforms do not appear to have all lived at the same time. There are clearly those that lived earlier and those that lived later in the Earth’s history. And they are separated by millions and billions of years, not a matter of days.
Anyway, we certainly would expect all creatures to be jumbled together in the same area, with the extinct ones not appearing as close to the surface. However, this idea has a problem. This problem is the global flood described in Genesis. If the earth had no such disasters, we should not expect to find many fossils after only 6,000-10,000 years. But a flood of such magnitude would disturb vast amounts of sediment and thereby bury billions of creatures, sealing them off from air. This would also result in a layered effect, as more aquatic creatures would be at the bottom, with fast-moving land-dwellers at the top.
The problem with that, apart from the fact that there is no sign of a global flood anywhere, is that that’s not an accurate description of what we find either.
The earliest life was aquatic, yes. But once land life appeared, it went through eons of evolution and the early forms are different from the later forms. The distribution of fossils in the strata would still have the land animals at least roughly mixed together. You’d find dinosaurs and mammoths at random points, and you’d see a lot of fossils of modern animals too (because modern tigers and sabre-tooth tigers would have been contemporaneous under this idea.)
Instead we still find a progression of forms and we don’t find fossils of modern animals.
Finally, fossilization is a relatively rare occurrence. If all the land animals had died in the same cataclysmic event, there would be many more fossils.
In addition, fossilization is a relative rare occurrence.
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Oops .. ignore the final sentence there. I meant to delete it.
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Well SteveG,
I’d be a lot more apt to listen to your side of the argument if you could just dispel the notion that your side of it isn’t circular as StuBob and Xion have pointed out.
“The transitional must be what is, because what is, is transitional. Isn’t it obvious?”
No. I’m afraid it isn’t. Please explain why your reasoning isn’t circular.
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SteveG,
I’ve been following this discussion with a lot of interest. I can accept the possibility that God used evolution as a means of creating, or that He created each species directly (over a very long time period – I’m not a young-earth creationist). Perhaps to take Make It Man’s question in #76 and word it a little differently (and I hope, MIM, without distorting your meaning) –
Given animals A, B, and C, where you would consider B a transitional form between A and C, what is it that would look different if B did in fact develop from A, and C from B, than if A, B, and C had all been created directly by God apart from any evolutionary process?
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It should be noted that Weikart’s scholarship is denounced by a majority of scholars. It is trivial to find an equal amount of support for ‘Hitlerism’ from Christianity. Invoking Weikart means that you have departed from honest discourse, for there is a long history of eugenic ideas, many of which can be traced through the bible, but which permeate every single community of humans that have ever felt the draw of social membership. In short, Weikart’s revisionism is not an honest mistake, it is as carefully and deliberately intelligently designed to obscure the truth as is the rest of the pablum ejaculated by the other Discovery Institute Fellows.
This story, and the simple WASP interpretation of history replete with manifest destinies and self-evident truths, appeals to doddering old men who are bitter about their lot, and it appeals to those who have constructed a desire to be perennially comforted by the murmurings of fictions.
Sky Beast Worshippers never consider that if they are going to blame Darwin for Hitler etc, for advancing the notion of evolution ‘without a creator’ then 1) to be honest one must consider causes far more antecedent than Darwin, but Heraclitus, Democritus Diogenes and Epicurus; and 2) Whoever invented the notion of a ‘god’ is responsible for more misery and suffering in the human race than any other faction in the history of the planet earth. In short, it is YOUR kind that has perpetuated undue human misery in the name of an altar to an unknown god that is not there.
You can’t admit this. It’s much easier to accept the sorcerer’s explanation. Solon is such a liar that he will misrepresent Francis Collins as a proponent of ‘Genesis’, when this of course is not true, unless Solon means that ‘genesis evolution’ includes extremely liberal ‘interpretations’ of what is purportedly a revealed and inerrant source. It is impossible to be intellectually honest and logically consistent and also defend the bible as any source of historical or scientific information.
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Pauline the question ‘what would an intermediate look like’ has been greatly facilitated by the discovery and use of population genetics and the sequencing of entire genomes of model organisms.
If one accepts descent via speciation, and therefore that phylogenies may yield knowledge about evolutionary relationships between organisms (species or populations or genera or families), then many features of the molecular data make sense in ways that would be expected if the mendelian hypothesis were true and if evolution proceeded more or less according to the mathematical models of Fisher Haldane and Wright, and many more since the 1950s.
If one does not accept evolution or common descent, then DNA data have no theoretical grounding. Gene duplications (look up how much DNA sequences there are in a yellow onion, versus how much in human sometime. Onion test on google will find it I think). Creationists have no theories to account for these data, they only have negative arguments from incredulity about how 1) evilution can’t have done it because we don’t know much about that sorta stuff, or 2) Evilution Hitler Darwin Homo etc nonsense that you see Solon weakly dribbling on his chin above (arguments from consequences).
Molecular phylogenies have confirmed a great deal of what biologists have suspected to be relationships between groups of living organisms. Sometimes findings have been contrary to the predictions of biologists (for example, the taxonomy and classification of fungi has been dramatically revised since the advent of molecular genetic analyses). To say that these analyses are irrelevant or meaningless is a weighty claim that has not been successfully defended by any science denier, whether by amateurs such as Solon or professional type hucksters like William Dembski or Jonathan Wells.
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Pauline at #77: Given animals A, B, and C, where you would consider B a transitional form between A and C, what is it that would look different if B did in fact develop from A, and C from B, than if A, B, and C had all been created directly by God apart from any evolutionary process?
If there’s a God in the way you envision, God could create organisms in any form He wants. He could create a universe that looks old even though it isn’t. He could, for that matter, have created you two minutes ago and given you a set of memories to make you think you have lived for a much longer time.
Once you start invoking God, there’s really no place for science. Science operates on the assumption that there are natural laws that operate consistently and can be used and investigated. If you ask “Well could an omnipotent God have done it supernaturally,” then you’re tossing those natural laws aside in favor of a miraculous intervention.
On the question of transitional forms, it’s really a misnomer. To demand to see a “transitional form” implies that A is one endpoint and C is another endpoint, and B is something in between. Evolution doesn’t hold that there are endpoints. Evolution doesn’t have a goal.
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For all the criticisms of evolutionary theory that are flying around, when are the Creationists going to come up with any evidence at all for their view?
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Pauline – 77
Would you explain to me how GOD Almighty could use evolution as a means of creating? I’m fascinated as to how you could come to this conclusion. How can evolution and creation define the Bible as the same? As you know Pauline, evolution is a theory of development from earlier forms, how would that stand with the Bible? Either you believe it or you don’t.
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There will be a point where mankind creates its own forms of life. Scientists will begin creating bacteria and then more and more complex organisms.
How will Young Earth Creationists react to this?
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Theo – 83
Mankind will create their own form of life? Are you sure about that? What will you tell GOD Almighty when you stand before HIM and explain your ‘little man’ ideas, your boastful created ideas? How will God react to YOU?
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Erasmus, the majority of Darwinian fundamentalist scholars probably find Weikart an anathema; however, you have no support for saying that a majority of scholars “denounce” him. Weikart is full professor and head of department of history at California State University, Stanislaus.
As to my “lying” about Francis Collin’s belief in Genesis, I should suggest that you read chapter six of his book Language of God, “Genesis, Gallileo, and Darwin,” in which he argues
that God created the universe and the laws that govern it; also that He endowed human beings with the capability of discerning these laws.
As your comment on both Weikart and Collins betray a lack of understanding, I take it that you have not read either of these books.
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SteveG at #80:
I may disagree with Pauline over the age of God’s creation, but your answer to her question amounts to a “Touché!”. Pauline 1, SteveG 0.
Perhaps it is possible to prove evolution with a jpg or a gif, but you certainly didn’t. Pauline is exactly right, and you don’t seem to understand the concept of proof. You are saying, “The street is wet, which is proof it rained last night.” Except that rain is just a possibility among many. It is a fallacy to argue “if a, then b; b, therefore a.”
What you have shown is not evidence *for* evolution, but an imaginary, hypothetical reconstruction *according to* evolution. Fossils don’t speak. There are no labels attached, except for the ones we attach. I see those fossils and I see them as evidence of common design. To paraphrase Bob Dylan, “We always did see the same fossils, We just saw them from a different point of view.”
And as an evolutionist, why do you deduce common descent from the homologies you have shown us? Why can’t those homologies be evidence of convergent evolution? Just curious.
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Theo at #83:
“How will Young Earth Creationists react to this?”
They WILL say: “See? I told you so!”
They WON’T say, “Wow, look at what random processes over time can create after all!”
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Theo (83): Scientists creating a “new form of life” doesn’t exactly disprove creation. In fact, it argues in favor of intelligent design.
So, ASaltyDog has it right.
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“Hopeful Monster”?
If such a “monster” ever did arise, he would have to be hopeful — that he would find a suitable mate to carry on his wonderful new mutations!
But I really think this (ahem) “theory” should be renamed the “Hoped-for Monster” theory, for the evolutionist finds himself hoping for its existence as another possible way to dismiss the existence of the God of Scripture.
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Victoria,
I consider Genesis 1 to teach that God created everything, not a record of the process used. The Bible also says that God sends rain and snow, but that does not invalidate our scientific understanding of how rain and snow are formed. It may be that God took on physical form to literally pick up handfuls of dirt to mold Adam, but there are enough anthropomorphic references to “the hand of God” where it does not mean that God used a physical hand to do something, that I can consider that possibility (that God did it but working through natural processes) for how God formed man also.
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ASaltyDog at #86:
I may disagree with Pauline over the age of God’s creation, but your answer to her question amounts to a “Touché!”. Pauline 1, SteveG 0.
Of course. I have to concede that point. Once you start bringing a God who can and does disrupt the natural laws at his whim, you can claim anything.
However, if you’re going to do that, then you can never really know anything. In reality, almost all of us except the severely insane operate on the assumption that nature follows its natural course most of the time. When we wake up to find snow on the ground, we assume — Christians included — that the snow fell from the clouds to the ground overnight. We don’t spend any time wondering if instead of that happening, God created the snow already on the ground — even though we could argue that perhaps he did, we assume he did not.
When we look at the history of life on Earth, though, suddenly the calculus changes. Considering the natural laws that we understand about natural selection, genetics, geology, paleontology, astronomy, etc., we can see how life forms have slowly changed over time. But some (by no means all!) religious believers have a stake in this one. They fear their theology would crumble if they allow themselves to accept the conclusions that the evidence indicates. So they go into overdrive trying to find any weaknesses they can in the science so they can continue to cling to their folktale of magical Creation … even though they have exactly zero evidence of such.
(I should note that Pauline and I don’t differ all that much … as a Deist, I also believe that God is the ultimate author of Creation, by designing natural laws in such a way to ensure evolution happened. However, I fully understand this is a matter of belief and faith and do not claim it to be science. I do differ sharply from young-Earth Genesis-based Creationists however. Their view is contrary to all observed evidence.)
Perhaps it is possible to prove evolution with a jpg or a gif, but you certainly didn’t.
Actually, no, it’s not. Evolution is a complex science and draws on a multiplicity of disciplines, some of which I named above. a bit of information here or there on the Web can illustrate a principle or fact here and there, but to truly bring a strong understanding of evolution takes a lot more time and information than that.
It’s even more difficult when trying to do it for a hostile audience whose primary goal is to poke holes in it at every opportunity. And the difficulty is further compounded by the fact that I’m no expert myself. I think I have a pretty good layman’s grasp on the main concepts, but Erasmus and a couple of other posters around here are much better versed on the details and the most current research than I am.
Pauline is exactly right, and you don’t seem to understand the concept of proof. You are saying, “The street is wet, which is proof it rained last night.” Except that rain is just a possibility among many. It is a fallacy to argue “if a, then b; b, therefore a.”
Here’s the problem with this statement: Science doesn’t deal in “proof,” it deals in probability. If a Creationist is demanding to have evolution proved, he’s going to remain a Creationist because the kind of proof that will convince a diehard Creationist that evolution is true doesn’t exist. This is partly because Creationists really aren’t interested in the truth. They deny a well-supported scientific theory as long as they can find even one or two small weaknesses that a scientist would understand as simply indicators of where more study needs to be done, and believe a story in a book that they cannot produce the slightest shred of external evidence for. There’s no argument from actual fact that will convince such a person to change his mind.
And it’s partly because even the staunchest supporter of evolution in the scientific community would not think in terms of proof. Scientific theories are by their nature subject to change. Evolution has weathered the test of time and seen every relevant scientific discovery made since Darwin first proposed it support the theory. It’s been expanded, modified and revised as needed, but the basic ideas have remained firm. But even so, something could be discovered tomorrow that would turn it on its ear.
So to use your wet street analogy, if you wake up and find all the streets wet, the most likely conclusion is that it rained overnight. There are other possibilities. Perhaps the fire department went around during the night and opened every hydrant within 20 miles of your house. Perhaps God created the water on the streets to trick you. But in the absence of evidence for any of these less likely alternatives, assuming it rained overnight is the most probable explanation.
And as an evolutionist, why do you deduce common descent from the homologies you have shown us? Why can’t those homologies be evidence of convergent evolution? Just curious.
Perhaps they are. Convergent evolution is still evolution.
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http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/DarwinAndHitler
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Genocide.cfm
As I have said before, it is trivially easy to quote mine Hitler and draw the same conclusions about “Luther to Hitler” or “Christianity to Hitler”. The question is then is there merit to this argument? And the answer is of course not, or at least no more merit than an argument blaming William Harvey for intravenous drug use. Correlation as the old saw goes.
There is no logical connection between the observation that natural selection might lead to speciation, (and the hypothesis that this has been responsible for the diversity of life we see tdoay) and the social-political-military ambitions of eastern european democratic dictatorships.
Interestingly though, there is support for the idea that there is a connection between religious ambitions and beliefs, and social-political-military ambitions of durned near everyone.
Pauline that is a sensible view.
“and the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
The bible clearly says that THE EARTH BROUGHT FORTH LIVING THINGS. The fundagelical world has attempted to twist their scriptures, in defiance of other scriptural commands, to interpret this to mean that GOD CREATED LIVING THINGS. The bible doesn’t say that. It says the earth did.
Now I am not tied to the view that the bible is literally true or even figuratively true. But if I were to believe that the bible is literally true, I would consider creationists to be following a false religion based on the construction of man.
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Of course sour old Solon you cannot deal with the merits of your argument but refer to authorities that, fortunately for you and for the rest of the Christian Reconstructionist movement, are more than willing to Lie For Jesus if it sounds like something that might fleece the flock a bit.
In this soundbite culture, any fool (like Weikart or the Moonie Wells or Harrison Scott Key or Dumbski or Denyse O’Leary or Ben Stein (notice how Steing has contradicted most of the DI Fellows recently?)) can make ridiculously false statements and not be held accountable for them.
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Erasmus, you’ve proved yourself on this thread to argue basically on the basis of ad hominem points. When you use such terms as “sour old Man, Dumbski, and Moonie Wells” you, also, have reduced yourself to argumentum ad ignorantium. When serious arguments are made against Darwinism, you reduce the level of discussion to crude personal attack.
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Pauline: So do you believe in a literal Fall of Mankind? Under that scenario, when did God decide who the first Adam was?
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Solon Wells is a Moonie, no? you are a sour old man, no? Dumbski I shall take credit for. 2 out of 3 ain’t bad. Are you sure you know what ‘ad hominem’ means? You have harrumphed and humbugged enough here to deny my characterization of you, but please don’t take it personal. I like sour old men, someday i hope to be one. Swatting my grand
Are you incapable of understanding that ad hominem is all that Weikart has accomplished? Even if it were true that No Darwin = No Hitler (and of course it is not true, or at least no one has demonstrated this at all), it would not change the solid evidence supporting biological evolution one iota. All that you and he have EVER done is argue from consequences to your perceived religion. One grand Chewbacca defense against biology. Well done.
You of course fail to grapple with the implications that ‘The Earth Brought Forth’ is not the same as ‘God Dun It’. Is the bible a little too pagan for you, my grim faced friend? If you were honest, you would change your tune to “The Bible Says The Earth Dun It, and God Dun’ed The Earth”. Either way it’s the sorcerer’s explanation, but at least it is consistent. Pardon me if I assume that consistency is something that you are concerned with.
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#95
Outkast,
All I can answer to that is, “I don’t know.” Not a really satisfying answer, I know, but that’s my honest answer to the question.
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Pauline – 90
Do you believe that Genesis is accurate as to creation, ALL OF IT?
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But that’s the reason many of us take the Creation story literally, Pauline — because it’s a crucial part of our entire theology. Why would we need a Second Adam, if there was no First Adam?
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SteveG at #91:
You said:
“Of course. I have to concede that point. Once you start bringing a God…”
Well SteveG, it sounds a bit late for you to realize only now what the debate is about, and what your opponents are saying. However, better late than never. And kudos to you for immediately conceding, as soon as that dawned on you, that if God exists then the fossils you showed are no necessary evidence for common descent at all. You only need to quit misrepresenting the God of the Bible as an arbitrary covenant-breaking idol (which is something nobody here is asserting as far as I can tell) and then the debate is over.
Oh, and of course the wet street is “most likely” due to rain only if a certain convenient scenario applies. If it’s May, and the wet street is located in a snow-covered Norwegian town, that’s “most likely” due to the melting of the snow, not to rain. Likewise you can’t say that common descent is the “most likely” explanation for the similar fossils without begging the question. If God exists, the “most likely” explanation for the origin of the universe is that he created it. If God exists, the “most likely” explanation for the homologies is that He designed different animals following some common patterns. It still remains a fallacy for you to argue “if a then b; b, therefore a.”
Then I asked, and you answered: “And as an evolutionist, why do you deduce common descent from the homologies you have shown us? Why can’t those homologies be evidence of convergent evolution? Just curious.” “Perhaps they are. Convergent evolution is still evolution.”
I appreciate your candor. But you don’t seem to get the point. If the homologies are not necessarily evidence of *common descent*, but can be interpreted in several other ways, why do you bring them in as evidence for common descent? Why are you outraged if, say, Kyle doesn’t buy that evidence? You told him, “Yep, see? You asked for a [transitional form] in an A-B-C sequence [of common descent]. I showed it to you. Now you say no, there must be more.” How can you say “I showed it to you”? Why does Kyle’s refusal to go along with your interpretation upset you? What’s in those pictures that DEMANDS that they be interpreted by Kyle as evidence of common descent? Because if there’s nothing that DEMANDS common descent, then why should we believe it? By admitting this point you have lost the debate.
Let me rewrite this dialogue in the light of these recent remarkable admissions of yours:
Creationist: You can’t show me a single transitional form.
Evolutionist: Here are several examples.
C: No they aren’t.
E: What do you mean? It’s right there.
C: I don’t see it.
E: Have you looked at the link?
C: Yes. I just see animals. No transitions.
E: They’re all transitions.
Pauline: Sorry to interrupt, but what is it that would look different if B did in fact develop from A, and C from B, than if A, B, and C had all been created directly by God apart from any evolutionary process?
E: Mmm… Well I guess they are not *necessarily* transitions, yeah.
ASaltyDog: Why do you treat them as evidence of common descent then? Even you admit that homologies sometimes have nothing to do with common descent, like in “convergent evolution”.
E: Yeah, good point.
Creationist: You can’t show me a single transitional form.
Evolutionist: You’re right. But I believe in evolution anyway. Try that. If you *start* with belief in evolution, the links I gave you will look like transitional forms.
That’s your evolutionism in a nutshell, my friend.
You see, you *start* with a framework, with a pattern, with a story, and then you fit the facts into it. You don’t reason from the facts to the framework. The fossils don’t come with labels. You stick the labels onto them.
Now the question I want to ask you then is WHY do you start with evolution. No evidence compels you to be an evolutionist. You *start* with being one. Now why do you do that? Why don’t you start with a Creator?
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ASaltyDog at #100:
it sounds a bit late for you to realize only now what the debate is about, and what your opponents are saying. However, better late than never. And kudos to you for immediately conceding, as soon as that dawned on you, that if God exists then the fossils you showed are no necessary evidence for common descent at all.
Once you start positing a God who can do anything he wants, then nothing is evidence of anything. This was my point, which flew right over your head.
Anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace, COULD have a miraculous explanation, if a person wanted to see it that way.
Does that make sense to do? No. Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened. We don’t sit around challenging people who say A and B happened to prove that God didn’t just cause C by miracle.
But you don’t seem to get the point. If the homologies are not necessarily evidence of *common descent*, but can be interpreted in several other ways, why do you bring them in as evidence for common descent?
Convergent evolution only means that creatures who live in similar environments can (and sometimes, but not always, do) develop similar types of structures as they adapt to those environments.
It is not in any way a contradiction to common descent. Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.
I will somewhat retract what I said, though, becuase in fact the specific examples I pointed to are relatively well-established and widely accepted examples of the evolution of single forms through descent. My point was that if someone pointed to an example of what was convergent evolution, it does no harm to the theory. Convergence is part of it.
In cases where convergence is the operative principle, we find that the exterior functions of systems are the same, but when you look under the hood, as it were, you find the underlying factors are different. Two planes both fly, but one has a propeller and the other is a jet — same function (flying), different mechanics to achieve it.
When two organisms have a common ancestry, the under-the-hood parts match too. The extreme similarly of human and chimpanzee DNA, including genes that have nothing to do with exterior form, shows common descent.
Bats and insects both have wings, but one is not presumed to be the direct ancestor of the other. They adapted to flight through different pathways. Archaeopteryx and the bald eagle both have wings; that is a case of common descent.
Oh, and of course the wet street is “most likely” due to rain only if a certain convenient scenario applies. If it’s May, and the wet street is located in a snow-covered Norwegian town, that’s “most likely” due to the melting of the snow, not to rain.
OK, fine. It’s most likely due to the most proximate natural cause. Rain, melting snow, whatever. We don’t normally invoke the miraculous to explain the natural.
Now the question I want to ask you then is WHY do you start with evolution. No evidence compels you to be an evolutionist. You *start* with being one. Now why do you do that? Why don’t you start with a Creator?
You cannot logically start with the conclusion. Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.
When are you going to produce one shred of positive evidence for Creationism? All we ever hear from Creationists is that “evolution has flaws” or “it is ‘just’ a theory,” or “it can’t be proved.”
Never is there evidence for Creationism, just various pinpricks and efforts at misdirection regarding evolution.
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#98
Victoria,
I do not consider Genesis to be a scientific account of creation. It tells what we need to know about God, about ourselves, and about the world around us.
#99
Outkast,
I am aware of that issue, and have given it lots of thought. I tried for a lot of years to believe in young earth creationism because that was what I was taught I needed to believe, that it was the only belief compatible with the Bible and Christian theology. I eventually discovered Christians who believe and preach the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ, who believe that He died for our sins and that we are saved only through trusting in Him, by His grace – but who did not consider it important to believe in a literal Adam. And I realized that I had never been completely convinced myself, that I had merely tried to accept what I was taught because I was supposed to.
It does’t work well to try to “make yourself believe” something. If the arguments are convincing, you believe it. If they’re not, you don’t. I realize that belief is not all an intellectual thing, that people sometimes believe very irrational things for reasons that have nothing to do with logical arguments.
I have many times examined myself to see if there is something I don’t want to surrender to God, that would cause me to struggle with believing what so many other Christians do. I have sins I struggle with, like other people, but I don’t see anything I am unwilling to repent of that would be a reason for my difficulty with believing.
I think it’s clear enough that sin is a universal problem. I certainly see it easily enough in myself. Whether it came from a literal Adam or not, it still corrupts us and blocks us from God. So we need a Savior.
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SteveG at #101,
I don’t know if you are trying to bluff, or if you are just clueless, or tired, or what, but you have missed all the points I made in my previous post. I don’t mean it as an offence, but with this reply you simply made a fool of yourself. You may want to go back, read my post, think, and reconsider.
Some more points:
- I invited you to quit misrepresenting the God of the Bible as an arbitrary covenant-breaking idol. You insist. Well, go ahead then. But I am not defending the religion you seem to be attacking.
- You write: “Anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace, COULD have a miraculous explanation, if a person wanted to see it that way.” This is precisely the Christian position, if, as I understand you, by “miraculous” you mean “caused by God”. So what?
- In most of your arguing, especially when capital letters appear in unusual quantities, you like to assume what you need to prove.
- “Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened.” That, my friend, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, is a logical fallacy.
- “[Convergent evolution] is not in any way a contradiction to common descent”. You completely miss my point. Read again what I said.
- “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.” If so, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent?
- “Bats and insects both have wings, but one is not presumed to be the direct ancestor of the other. They adapted to flight through different pathways. Archaeopteryx and the bald eagle both have wings; that is a case of common descent.” You are hammering the facts into the preconceived story. You are not making this kind of distinctions by watching the wings, but by consulting the accepted evolutionary tree.
- “OK, fine. [The wet street is] most likely due to the most proximate *natural* cause. Rain, melting snow, whatever. We don’t normally invoke the miraculous to explain the natural.” You *completely* miss my point. And I am sorry, but (following here your red herring for the sake of discussion) as a Christian I most certainly do regularly invoke the “miraculous” to explain the natural. Now what?
- “Why don’t you start with a Creator?” You reply, “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.” Except if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”?
- “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.
- “When are you going to produce one shred of positive evidence for Creationism?” Don’t be silly. Look around. *Everything* is positive evidence for “creationism”.
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Outkast at #99: But that’s the reason many of us take the Creation story literally, Pauline — because it’s a crucial part of our entire theology. Why would we need a Second Adam, if there was no First Adam?
So you choose to not consider the findings of science, not because you think them false, but because you fear their being true would collapse the house of cards that is your theology?
That is a mighty weak faith you have.
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SaltyDog at #103:
I don’t know if you are trying to bluff, or if you are just clueless, or tired, or what
Tired for sure. Not at all clueless and certainly not in any need of a bluff.
but you have missed all the points I made in my previous post. I don’t mean it as an offence, but with this reply you simply made a fool of yourself. You may want to go back, read my post, think, and reconsider.
Did I? I don’t think so.
Some more points:
- I invited you to quit misrepresenting the God of the Bible as an arbitrary covenant-breaking idol. You insist. Well, go ahead then. But I am not defending the religion you seem to be attacking.
- You write: “Anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace, COULD have a miraculous explanation, if a person wanted to see it that way.” This is precisely the Christian position, if, as I understand you, by “miraculous” you mean “caused by God”. So what?
I believe these two points go together so I’ll address them at once.
By “miraculous,” I do not mean “caused by God” in a general sense that God is the author of all things. I mean caused by God’s deliberate suspension of natural laws to do something that would normally violate them.
Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)
If so (and I am not assuming agreement, that is why I ask), then when we observe a natural phenomenon, we assume that it is part of the natural laws. We see the sun rise and we know it is because the Earth’s rotation is bringing our part of the world into the sunlight. We don’t need to spend a minute wondering if this particular sunrise is somehow caused by God suspending the natural laws to do something miraculous.
When the trees begin to sprout new leaves in the Spring, we know it is because that is what trees do as part of their natural life cycle. We don’t need to debate whether God is suspending the natural laws and making it happen.
I am not quite sure what you mean by “covenant-breaking idol,” so please elaborate.
- “Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened.” That, my friend, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, is a logical fallacy.
Huh? How? It’s a logical fallacy to assume the workings of a known cause when we see the effect that the known cause causes?
So let me get this straight … you have to have it proved to you that each sunrise is just the normal effect of the Earth’s rotation, because just knowing that that’s the usual cause of a sunrise is not good enough?
I don’t follow your reasoning here at all.
- “[Convergent evolution] is not in any way a contradiction to common descent”. You completely miss my point. Read again what I said.
- “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.” If so, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent?
Common descent is the linchpin of evolutionary theory. Ultimately, all life comes through it. But in any single example where two organisms have similar adaptive measures, there may or may not be a direct line of descent between them.
I used an analogy of airplanes. Ultimately, all airplanes share a common heritage. The physics that tell us how to shape wings so that the airflow around them will produce lift is common to all of them. But some get their forward propulsion with a propeller and others with a jet engine.
The engines are convergent … they serve the same purpose and for the same reason, but the mechanisms they use to accomplish it are different. The wings are common descent. Without that structure in place, the craft doesn’t get off the ground no matter how fast you make it move.
Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof. Considering all the evidence from the many relevant fields of science, the probability is high. People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.
But then, people who prefer to believe that the sun is actually Apollo’s chariot making its daily trip across the sky probably wouldn’t be convinced of the Earth’s rotation.
- “Bats and insects both have wings, but one is not presumed to be the direct ancestor of the other. They adapted to flight through different pathways. Archaeopteryx and the bald eagle both have wings; that is a case of common descent.” You are hammering the facts into the preconceived story. You are not making this kind of distinctions by watching the wings, but by consulting the accepted evolutionary tree.
See above. You can trace through the fossil record the gradual changes in bone structure that demonstrate the evolution from one species to another. We understand the mechanisms of how subtle mutations or simple changes in gene function can lead to some organisms that are better adapted for survival than others, and it’s just common sense that the animals better able to survive will survive in greater numbers and so propagate more successfully than competing species.
And over many thousands or tens of thousands of generations, those subtle changes and effects of natural selection give us eagles and falcons and wrens and woodpeckers.
But can I prove it in a way that someone who clings to belief in ancient stories will have to admit to being mistaken? No. I never claimed to.
- “OK, fine. [The wet street is] most likely due to the most proximate *natural* cause. Rain, melting snow, whatever. We don’t normally invoke the miraculous to explain the natural.” You *completely* miss my point. And I am sorry, but (following here your red herring for the sake of discussion) as a Christian I most certainly do regularly invoke the “miraculous” to explain the natural. Now what?
I will assume we were talking earlier with differing ideas of what “miraculous” means. If you actually do mean that you regularly assume God is suspending the natural laws in order to do nothing more unusual than make the ground wet, I really do not know what to say.
- “Why don’t you start with a Creator?” You reply, “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.” Except if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”?
Nope. And you are just assuming that I do.
You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.
Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study. Science will never prove or disprove the existence of a Creator, because that’s simply not part of what it can examine.
- “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.
If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet.
Where is the fallacy?
- “When are you going to produce one shred of positive evidence for Creationism?” Don’t be silly. Look around. *Everything* is positive evidence for “creationism”.
And the big finish is … a cop-out.
If God created the Earth and all life in a short span of time, there are certain ways we would be able to confirm it. We’d find the remains of creatures at all levels of the geological strata, because they all lived at the same time. We’d find modern organisms mixed in with the extinct ones, for the same reason.
We don’t find that. We find fossilized creatures at different layers, and we find them consistently distributed that way. That’s evidence that they lived at different times, separated by millions of years.
Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time.
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#81 SteveG – “For all the criticisms of evolutionary theory that are flying around, when are the Creationists going to come up with any evidence at all for their view?”
For the thousandth time, the evidence is the same for creationists and evolutionists!
Billions of animals buried by water all over the earth indicates catastrophism. You don’t get fossils by animals just laying down and dying. But the evidence is there for all.
In this court of ideas we have eye witness testimony and circumstantial evidence. Testimony is not inferior because it is less scientific.
Creationists freely admit their belief is based on biblical revelation. Yet if science contradicted any of it, the testimony would be proven false. Materialists pretend to have the scientific high ground, but face the same challenge in proving their faith is true. This is why they always retreat to their old standby argument of ridicule.
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Theo #83 “There will be a point where mankind creates its own forms of life. Scientists will begin creating bacteria and then more and more complex organisms. How will Young Earth Creationists react to this?
So you’re asking what intelligent people designing something would indicate? Why, intelligent design of course.
To support evolution, new life forms would have to occur spontaneously for no particular reason.
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Pauline #102 I do not consider Genesis to be a scientific account of creation.
If it’s big Latin words you need, try the Vulgate. But do you believe that Genesis chapters 1-3 are true? If not, then does Christianity make any sense? Why send a Savior to reverse the curse if the premise is false?
Without a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Fall, there is no need for a literal Savior. Your faith would be vain (cf 1 Cor 15).
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Xion at 106:
For the thousandth time, the evidence is the same for creationists and evolutionists!
For the thousand and oneth time, no, it isn’t. Read on.
Billions of animals buried by water all over the earth indicates catastrophism. You don’t get fossils by animals just laying down and dying. But the evidence is there for all.
There is no evidence, none, of “billions of animals buried by water.” You get fossils by animals laying down and dying in certain types of sediment (not water), under certain conditions that preserve the bones long enough for the minerals in the sediment to replace the bone without destroying its form.
And there are probably not “billions” of fossils. If we’re lucky, there are a few hundred thousand, maybe only a few tens of thousands, remaining to be found.
Secondly, and more importantly really, if all life forms existed and died at the same time, we’d find them all mixed together. Dinosaurs and dogs next to each other. A modern tiger and wooly mammoth together. We don’t find that. We find that dinosaurs appear in some layers of the earth and mammoths in others. And we find that consistently. This is direct evidence that they lived at different times separated by a long span.
Creationists freely admit their belief is based on biblical revelation. Yet if science contradicted any of it, the testimony would be proven false.
Science DOES contradict it, and it HAS been proven false. But you are never going to see that because of what you say in #108 … your fragile theology won’t let you consider the possibility that scientists today may actually understand more about the way life works than some ancient nomads scribbling down their folk tales.
Xion (and Jeff), I’ve been in that position expressed in #108 and #99 too. When I was a Christian, I reached a point where I realized the truth of what you say. If there was not a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Fall, the traditional understanding of Christianity would not make sense.
The difference is, I decided to follow the facts wherever they led. You choose to refuse to even consider that you might be mistaken because you can’t bear the possibility that your whole faith system might need rethinking.
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Pauline – 102
So science trumps the Word of God?
You say it tells us what we need to know about God and ourselves, …… but it somehow is deficient as to God’s creation?
If Genesis gives such pertinent information about us, and you believe this……why do you believe it tells us about ourselves, but falls SHORT regarding CREATION?
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Because what it says about human nature is pretty clearly true now as then. What it says about Creation, in terms of how it happened, is contradicted by every observed fact.
Science trumps ancient myth, yes. Either your God inspired his human writers to write a story that that conveyed spiritual truth but not literal fact … or else your God planted false evidence in every field of human endeavor to trick us.
The first version is acceptable to many religious believers who don’t feel a need to sacrifice their intelligence in order to have faith. The second version should not be acceptable to anyone. There is no third version.
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Amended: If the God you believe in exists as you believe in Him, there is no third version.
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Let’s let Pauline answer, I’m sure she is more than capable STEVEG!
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I’m very eager to read her answer. She’s got some fascinating thoughts.
But it’s an open forum.
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Victoria,
You ask if “science trumps the Word of God”? No.
There is no conflict between what science discovers and God’s truth. However the Bible was not written with the purpose of explaining things from a scientific perspective. I know that your understanding of Biblical inerrancy means that whatever the Bible happens to comment on, from a scientific perspective, must be true. But as I’ve stated previously (on other threads at various times), I do not believe that accepting the Bible as true and authoritative requires a belief in inerrancy. My husband uses the word “infallible” for this position, which says that the Bible is true in what it teaches – but understands that it’s not trying to teach science.
You ask why I think Genesis “falls short regarding creation”? I don’t. It tells us what we need to know about creation – that God created it, and that He made it good (as opposed to the idea that the material world is somehow bad, and inferior to the spiritual world). I said that God told us what we need to know about creation – and I don’t consider the process by which all of creation happened to be something we need to know. Nothing wrong with trying to figure it out, but not something essential to our lives.
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Xion,
You say that without a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Fall, there is no need for a literal Savior. Not all Christians see it that way. As I said above, our sin problem is obvious. We do need a Savior.
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Pauline, #102, #116. There is no requirement to believe in a literal Adam or a literal creation for salvation. The requirement is only to place your faith in the literal Christ. But how much faith can you place in a liar? If the beginning of the Bible is not true, then Jesus was either a liar or a loon for quoting from it.
Christians should understand the depth and breadth and height of the gospel message (Eph 3:18), but it is not required. Only a grain of faith is required. However, people who choose to remain ignorant of the meaning of the gospel get their wish. You can talk about good news all you want, but it doesn’t make any sense without first acknowledging the bad news. If you aren’t in debt, it makes no sense for someone to pay your debt.
The Bible all holds together from beginning to end as a single unified message. There was a problem in the beginning that is resolved in the end. Over thousands of years God prepared a people, a place and a point in time to save us from the sin of Adam. The genealogies from Adam, the law, the history, the triumphs and trials all point to Christ’s payment for that sin. (Rom 5:14, 1 Cor 15:45). These verses won’t have meaning for people who refuse to understand what they mean.
The Bible teaches that God created all things good and that sin and death are a result of the Fall. Evolution teaches that creation created itself through disease and death.
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Yes, and Pauline, what about all of the NT references to Adam [inc. the ones that Xion has already mentioned]?
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Xion: God’s truth would not contradict what we see with our own eyes. Biblical Creationism does, whether you are willing to let yourself admit it or not.
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Wow, and I had always thought that Biblical creation confirms what we see with our own eyes.
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If you don’t trust one part of the bible, how will you pick out truth from the rest? Most likely in a relativistic, existential manner that ends up as a synthesis of what you like or what resonates with your perception of life. Reading both sides of the argument, you’d think God either lied in Genesis or lied through creation’s residual physical evidence.
When SteveG asserts that there is no evidence for creation, I assume he believes that the factual record cannot be harmonized with Genesis. The maligned AIG crowd believes in the literal interpretation of those first biblical chapters and attempts to decipher the scientific facts as if the Bible were true.
But can the “facts”, unadorned by a materialistic interpretation, be harmonized in a plausible way with scripture? I’m not asking for the most probable hypothesis for life, just a plausible reenactment of creation superintended by God that explains the bare facts while upholding scripture.
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So xion chooses to believe the magical instead of the empirical, for magical and not empirical reasons.
So goes the story of every single sun worshipper, idol maker, chicken entrail studying, hex casting, cargo cult pagan that ever lived.
You are just one of a long line of animal-men groveling in the mud at the feet of your own ignorance. You could be free of your bound allegiance to the image of yourself you have erected in the name of gods, but it is much more comforting to adopt someone elses story than determine your own narrative. This is the secret power of religion and politics, and I will agree, science. The difference lies in what may be seen and shown to be true, with reason as the guiding light. Those of you here who deny the enlightenment sure are fascinating creatures. I simply cannot understand the appeal of the shadows of the cave.
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#121 Xion is already doing that, as is Victoria.
The bible plainly states that the EARTH BROUGHT ANIMALS AND PLANTS FORTH. Not gods.
This is as plain a statement supporting evolutionary history of life as is possible to make from the bronze age narrative of the bible.
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Erasmus: In Gen 1:11, GOD SAID for the earth to bring forth vegetation; in Gen 1:24 GOD SAID for the earth to bring forth living creatures, and Gen 1:25 says that HE made those living creatures. Nice try.
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Norm P. at #121: When SteveG asserts that there is no evidence for creation, I assume he believes that the factual record cannot be harmonized with Genesis.
Right.
The maligned AIG crowd believes in the literal interpretation of those first biblical chapters and attempts to decipher the scientific facts as if the Bible were true.
AIG and the ICR are rightly maligned because they don’t attempt to decipher the scientific facts so much as they attempt to spread misinformation and confusion about what the facts are. They represent about as blatant a case of “lying for Jesus” as there is.
But can the “facts”, unadorned by a materialistic interpretation, be harmonized in a plausible way with scripture?
Not in a literal way. But there are many devout religious people, Pauline being one example, who don’t seem troubled by the need to take Genesis non-literally.
Xion, Outkast, Victoria and Tychicus have revealed that they are not even able to objectively consider the evidence because they believe their very salvation hangs on their believing Genesis literally. There’s an old saying: “You can’t convince a person to believe something if his livelihood depends on his not believing it.” How much more true that is if you live in fear of going to hell for allowing yourself to consider the ancient Scripture might not accord with new knowledge.
Too much is made of the “materialistic interpretation” you mention. Science operates on the principle that if natural laws and processes can explain a phenomenon, then that is the explanation. We know moisture accumulates in the air and when enough of it has gathered, it falls to the ground as rain. We don’t need to wonder if somehow God is miraculously making it rain. Even most Christians would not argue that that’s something that needs to be considered.
That’s all the materialistic interpretation means. The supernatural is not something science can disprove, or even would try to. That is a question beyond its grasp. We can understand a great deal about how life works, and how it has developed over time. Whether or not God created it is a matter of faith, not science.
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SteveG #109:
“For the thousandth time, the evidence is the same for creationists and evolutionists!” “For the thousand and oneth time, no, it isn’t.”
For the thousand and twoth of time … it must be! The alternative is not possible.
Apparently you don’t know the meaning of the word evidence. In a court of law, the physical evidence is on display for all to see. Fossil evidence, DNA evidence, etc. are all undeniable, indisputable. They can be handled and examined. How could either side of the debate deny any of this evidence? It is not possible short of insanity.
“The difference is, I decided to follow the facts wherever they led. You choose to refuse to even consider that you might be mistaken because you can’t bear the possibility that your whole faith system might need rethinking.”
No, you’ve simply traded one faith for another. Your doctrine now consists of popular mythology. You have become comfortable with tautology like “every organism that exists is a transitional form because life is always undergoing changes.” In other words, transitional forms exist because they are transitional. Going with the crowd has become more important than critical thinking.
I have stated many times that truth is more important than religion. If evolution were true I would embrace it. I have been researching it for decades and have found it to be just an elaborate set of interesting circular arguments. No one has proven it true or false. To me, the biblical point of view is easier to believe.
It takes far less faith in my opinion to believe that created things have a creator, than some fairy tale about the kiss of time turning frogs into princes.
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Xion at #126:
Apparently you don’t know the meaning of the word evidence. In a court of law, the physical evidence is on display for all to see. Fossil evidence, DNA evidence, etc. are all undeniable, indisputable. They can be handled and examined. How could either side of the debate deny any of this evidence? It is not possible short of insanity.
Right. The facts are the same. The facts do support the evolutionary view of the development of life on Earth. The facts do not support the sudden-creation view of life on Earth.
I can’t put it any simpler than that.
In a court of law, one piece of evidence might be a letter the defendant wrote to his brother two weeks before the murder, ranting about how much he hates the victim and detailing his plan for killing him. The defense attorney arguing that the defendant never had a malicious thought toward the victim is not going to find support in that piece of evidence.
The evidence is the same for both sides in terms of its existence. It is NOT the same for both sides in terms of how well it supports their respective arguments.
However, if the defense attorney takes your approach, he’ll just deny the letter even exists because his belief depends on not letting himself consider it.
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I have stated many times that truth is more important than religion. If evolution were true I would embrace it. I have been researching it for decades and have found it to be just an elaborate set of interesting circular arguments. No one has proven it true or false. To me, the biblical point of view is easier to believe.
Define what you mean by “proven.”
As I’ve stated several times now, science doesn’t deal in proof. It deals in probability. If we know certain facts, we can theorize the most probable principle that explains those facts. As more facts come in, they will tend to confirm or challenge the theory. Science will refine the theory as needed to accommodate the facts, or if it can’t, it will reject the theory.
Germs cause disease. Nobody really doubts that anymore, but it’s still called the “germ theory of disease” because it’s an explanation for the observed phenomena.
Evolution explains the development of life. It is not circular, but it does depend to some extent on inference. As more information has come in in the 150 or so years since Darwin first articulated it, the theory has been modified as needed, but nothing has been discovered to date that seriously challenges its general correctness. The need for inference has diminished considerably as more of the information gaps have been filled.
However, it will never be proved to the point that it will convince someone who is unwilling to accept it. You could still choose to believe thet disease is caused by evil spirits if you want to. Some people still do, but that doesn’t mean the germ theory is wrong.
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#122 Erasmus So xion chooses to believe the magical instead of the empirical, for magical and not empirical reasons.
I am surprised that you are not glad at least for my consistency. I simply ask Christians to embrace the whole enchilada instead of using weasel words and back peddling. For this you should thank me. Life is magical in a sense — too bad you can’t see it.
Too bad you don’t appreciate how fantastic your own fairy tale is. Animation of the inanimate, frogs becoming princes, pond scum becoming cab drivers — all for no particular reason. That’s quite a big burrito to swallow.
Why not use that dizzying intellect of yours (so says you) to engage in actual debate rather than sophomoric jabs at the wind. Quoting Plato impresses only you, especially since you are so easily distracted with the shadows dancing on the inside of your eyelids.
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whole enchilada … big burrito .. about time for lunch, Xion?
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SteveG #127 I mostly agreed with you right up to that last paragraph. Facts are facts. The facts are the same for both sides. That’s my point and you agree. Great!
How well the facts support the case is a separate issue. You have one opinion. I have another. But neither of us deny the evidence. Therefore your last statement is FALSE and denies what you had just agreed to.
Obviously, it is just an insult, which is pretty much what every evolutionist does when cornered. This simply exposes how little confidence you have in your own faith.
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I have to go, but I had one more point for Theo #83:
As it stands today, mankind has not created life. Someday we may. But for now, the only thing that has successfully created life according to materialists is dirt. All living things came from stardust we are told.
So if man has not yet created life, but dirt has, then wouldn’t that make us dumber than dirt?
Something to think about …
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I’m in the mood for Mexican food for some reason …
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Xion at #131: Obviously, it is just an insult, which is pretty much what every evolutionist does when cornered. This simply exposes how little confidence you have in your own faith.
It is frustrating trying to talk about science and facts with people who avowedly are unwilling to even consider the possibility that they might be mistaken — not because of the facts but because their already-chosen faith system tells them they should not.
In #126 you say you studied evolution extensively before rejecting it. But earlier, in #117, you argued for the necessity to believe the whole Bible literally in order for your Christian faith to make sense. Those two positions seem to be at cross-purposes. (No pun intended.)
You say in #117: There is no requirement to believe in a literal Adam or a literal creation for salvation. The requirement is only to place your faith in the literal Christ. But how much faith can you place in a liar? If the beginning of the Bible is not true, then Jesus was either a liar or a loon for quoting from it.
That may be true (I think it’s rather uncharitable toward Jesus, but nevertheless) … but if the observed facts of the real world show the beginning of the Bible to not be literally true, what then?
You are left with only a couple of options. You can, as atheists do, decide the whole thing is ancient myth that we moderns don’t have to give a thought to.
Or you can, as fundamentalists do, refuse to acknowledge the observed facts of the real world in order to cling to literal belief in a myth. (Which usually entails insisting that the facts are something other than they are, which is what I think you are doing when you characterize evolution as “pond scum turning into taxi drivers for no reason.”)
Or you can, as Pauline and many other Christians and other religious people do, choose to read the Genesis story as the kind of “true myth” that imparts an important spiritual truth without needing to be taken as literal history.
You seem to me to be taking that second option of the three. But please, do correct me if I’m wrong.
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SteveG #128 was nicely stated. I can’t ignore such a reasonable discussion.
Define what you mean by “proven.”
Well, prove that hippos and whales have a common ancestor. Prove that apes and man have a common ancestor. Grouping fossils into an artificial progression that fits a preconceived result doesn’t do it for me.
“Evolution explains the development of life. It is not circular, but it does depend to some extent on inference.”
The evolutionary story is based entirely on inference and some of those inferences are circular. You claim that the transitional continuum is transitional because it is. Fossils are dated primarily by the layer they are found in and the layers are dated primarily by the fossils they contain. Etc.
Now I’ve really got to go. Hit me with your best shot …
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Xion at #135: Well, prove that hippos and whales have a common ancestor. Prove that apes and man have a common ancestor. Grouping fossils into an artificial progression that fits a preconceived result doesn’t do it for me.
And what would do it for you? I suspect nothing would be enough.
There are others far better qualified than I am to undertake this challenge, but briefly, it is possible to trace similarities in bone structure, features in the genetic sequence and other characteristics back through time.
Here’s one example. Most mammals are able to manufacture their own vitamin C. There is a specific gene that causes this to happen. Humans and chimpanzees cannot. Our version of the gene is non-functional, but we do have it.
From an evolutionary point of view, this does two things. It suggests that at some point before the emergence of chimpanzees and humans from common ancestor, the gene stopped functioning as it should. As the progeny gradually evolved down two separate paths, one leading to us and one to chimps, the non-functioning gene was passed on.
It also means that evolutionary theory has made a correct prediction (one of the ways scientific theories are tested.) Knowing that it’s rare for genes to actually be deleted from an established sequence, researchers expected to find a non-functioning version. And that is what they found.
The Creationist has to argue that God deliberately created both humans and chimps with a useless version of a gene that is perfectly useful in most other mammals.
God certainly could have done that, but what sense would it make?
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Proof for you does not exist Xion because anything that does not fit your narrowly interpreted version of the bible must be false. But beyond any reasonable doubt, the molecular phylogenies constructed from the DNA evidence do lend a massive amount of confirmation to the theories derived from the study of morphology biogeography ecology life history and behavior alone.
It is consilient.
You have no explanation for this result. That is telling.
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Further, to deny dating methods you deny nuclear physics.
Sounds like you have been influenced by Feyerabend as well. Very well my postmodernist in fundie disguise, science is all a narrative and each is as good or as true as the other. We all have the same evidence, just different interpretations, and one interpretation is as good as the other and there is no method for parsing different interpretations with respect to truth content.
I am fascinated by this view. Compartmentalizing, cognitive dissonance, the whole ball of wax. Love ya mean it.
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Pauline – 115
Is your belief /theistic evolution?
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#121 “If you don’t trust one part of the bible, how will you pick out truth from the rest? Most likely in a relativistic, existential manner that ends up as a synthesis of what you like or what resonates with your perception of life.”
Norm P,
I would guess you and I mean something different about what it means to trust the Bible. I don’t like to guess at what someone else means, but from your comment #121 you seem to think I don’t trust Genesis 1. I don’t think the purpose of Genesis 1 is to teach the process by which God created all things, but the fact that He did, and that He called them good. I trust that. I do not consider my skepticism regarding the traditional six 24-hour day creation to be distrusting the Biblical account, because I don’t think that is the point of the passage.
If I were to go through the Bible and pick out the parts that I like, as you seem to suggest in #121, I would probably choose Jesus’ humanity over divinity, human free will over God’s sovereignty, and dismiss a lot of other passages and doctrines that are unpleasant or difficult to understand. I would most likely end up with beliefs much like the liberal UCC church I grew up in.
As for “what resonates with [my] perception of life,” I don’t see how that is avoidable. How could I honestly believe something that runs counter to what I know of myself and other people and life in general? That is why I left the UCC church and became a Christian. I had been brought up to believe that people were by nature good, and that “sin” was really just immaturity, not evil to be judged by God. But I looked at myself and I saw sin, and the church I had grown up in gave me no answers on what to do about it.
I went to a fundamentalist church, where I heard the Gospel for the first time, how Jesus died for my sins, and how I could be a new person through faith in Him, and I trusted in Jesus as my Savior.
#117 “However, people who choose to remain ignorant of the meaning of the gospel get their wish. You can talk about good news all you want, but it doesn’t make any sense without first acknowledging the bad news. If you aren’t in debt, it makes no sense for someone to pay your debt.”
Xion,
I am not ignorant of the meaning of the Gospel. I came to Christ because I knew the “bad news” although I had not been taught it in church, and did not think of it in terms of having inherited Adam’s sin nature. I have since studied theology, both formally and informally, including various views of the atonement (of which Jesus paying our debt is one). And I am not convinced that the genuine need for a literal Savior requires that there have been a literal Adam, although I am not dismissing the possibility – simply allowing the possibility that there was not.
#139
Victoria,
I consider theistic evolution a possibility, as I consider direct creation a possibility. As far as I can tell either could explain the world we find ourselves in today, and either would be consistent with belief in a Creator. I do not see a need to figure it out for sure.
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Pauline – 140
So are you saying that you believe in evolution as a possibility, and creation being another possibility? If you believe in evolution in any form, then the creation by GOD of earth and everything in it, becomes false? Do you believe that Genesis is false?
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Victoria, Francis Collins, the evangelical Christian scientist argues in The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief that one can accept the fundamental truth of Genesis and, also, accept the science of evolution. He basically argues from the view of theistic evolution that God created an evolutionary process for the various forms of life.
Collins, the head of the International Genome Project, has become convinced about evolution through his study of the genome, while at the same time he believes strongly that the complexity, bauty, and goodness of life could only exist through the very same Creator of Genesis.
Genesis was not written as a scientific treatise. It is a brilliant and profound basically poetic conception of God’s creation that is not at all contradicted by Darwin’s theory of evolution.
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By your statement you are saying that you believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution, if not then you are doing nothing more than playing a scrambled mix, which has no basis, but in fact is nothing more than gibberish.
So then Genesis is poetic, as you see it? If you believe this then why believe the rest of the OT, or for that matter the ‘Great Flood’ then you could also add Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot.
If God isn’t able to create the World just as the Bible says HE did, how can you believe that Jesus is the Savior? You can tear the whole Bible and Scripture from limb to limb, that’s what many are now doing.
Satan must be having a real barn dance watching this unfold amongst those who purport to be Evangelical.
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I got Collins’ Language of God for Christmas and read it. He’s passionate about his Christian belief while disbelieving Genesis and Jonah. I appreciate his sincerity but how do you know what to believe with the rest of the bible. And why would God muddle it. Granted, God could have used some degree of evolution to bring life to earth, but not to the extent or order that a Darwinist persists is absolute truth. Either there’s some plausible explanation that harmonizes Genesis with the bare facts or the alternate is to turn to SteveG’s deism. If Genesis is untrustworthy, why not argue the truthfulness of every other scriptural tenet, including the means of grace, which – by the way – are being challenged somewhat by the New Perspectives on Paul.
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Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:4
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
Isaiah 44
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hebrews 11:3
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#141 “So are you saying that you believe in evolution as a possibility, and creation being another possibility? If you believe in evolution in any form, then the creation by GOD of earth and everything in it, becomes false? Do you believe that Genesis is false?”
Victoria,
You are asking me about evolution vs. creation, but that is not what I said. I said “direct creation” is a possibility. In discussions of evolution vs creationism, “direct creation” is generally used to refer to God creating each species directly, rather than it having developed from another species.
I do believe in creation. I believe God created everything. The question is whether he used natural processes to do some of it. (The initial creation of something from nothing could only be by His miraculous power.)
So to answer your last question, no. I do not believe Genesis is false. I consider it a false dichotomy to say that the only choices are either young earth creationism or Genesis is false. I would say that it is true but not scientifically accurate, as that was not its purpose.
Norm P.,
I don’t think that “God muddled it.” God used people to write the Bible, people who wrote according to the literary standards of their time. Those standards are different from our own, and did not include the concern for factual accuracy in peripheral details. Examples in the Gospels include cases where the order of events may have been modified, parts of two events told as one, or other aspects of the narrative that did not change the point of what was being taught.
According to Lee Strobel’s A Case for Christ, up to around 40% of a story could be modified by the storyteller, so long as he maintained the central points and crucial details, and he would not be considered to have made the story untrue. And that matches up with the kind of variation seen in the Gospels. Which day something occurred, how many people were present, etc. were details that could be changed. The point of the story – the miracle Jesus did or the teaching he gave – was the central part that remained the same.
That approach does not make Scripture untrustworthy, in my opinion. If the point is to teach that Jesus had to power to cast out demons, to calm the storm, and that He told us we must take up our cross and follow Him, that point is clear regardless of other details in the account. It doesn’t mean we can pick and choose whether we think we have to take up our cross and follow Him, or whether He rose from the dead. Or whether God created us and we belong to Him.
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Victoria, I believe in the essential truth or Word of the Bible, especially that we live in a created rather than randomly evolved universe. However, given the truth of well proved science I don’t believe that the universe was created in six days. More likely the time and space that we know was create by an eternal God who exists beyond time and space. As I undestand it the Hebrew word for “day” could be interpreted variously as twenty-four hours or an eon.
Back in the Seventeenth Century the Catholic Church condemned Galileo for his heliocentric as opposed to the geocentric view. We now know that Galileo was right and that this doesn’t in slightest diminish our view of Creation. Back in the time of Darwin Asa Gray, a devout Christian American biologist, had no problem accepting Darwin’s theory of evolution, as he understood that our Creator was behind this process.
We need to distinguish between evolution, which is a credible empirically based theory, and Darwinism, which the atheists including Steve G and Erasmus claim supports the rather implausible notion that life forms are created by some naturalistic or materialistic form of natural selection by random variation. This blatant myth is quite implausible though it supports their conveniently absurd notion that humans are mere animals with complete moral and pelvic freedom.
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We need to distinguish between evolution, which is a credible empirically based theory, and Darwinism, which the atheists including Steve G and Erasmus claim supports the rather implausible notion that life forms are created by some naturalistic or materialistic form of natural selection by random variation.</i<
Whoa there bucko. I’m not an atheist.
And I am getting a little tired of people assuming I am, as if the only possible options are evangelical Christian or atheist.
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Norm P. at #144: I appreciate his sincerity but how do you know what to believe with the rest of the bible.
That’s precisely why Outkast and some others here are afraid to even look. Because they know (and it is true) that if you don’t insist the Bible is literally true in every regard, you do open the door to those kind of questions.
However, as Francis Collins, Pauline and many many other people demonstrate, opening the door to asking those questions does not automatically mean abandoning the faith. And seriously, if your faith is so fragile that it can’t stand up to questioning, is it really something you want to hang your hat on?
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#147: This blatant myth is quite implausible though it supports their conveniently absurd notion that humans are mere animals with complete moral and pelvic freedom.
again you go with the pelvis.
It would be nice if you would actually bother to understand the points being made before taking issue with them.
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SteveG at #105:
You wrote: “By “miraculous,” I do not mean “caused by God” in a general sense that God is the author of all things. I mean caused by God’s deliberate suspension of natural laws to do something that would normally violate them.”
I do not believe there are any such things as a natural laws as you apparently intend them. I do believe that “anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace” is ultimately caused by God’s deliberate action. I also believe that God keeps His word. This is what makes science possible. You admitted that of course if I bring God into this debate, then homologies can’t be said to be necessary proof of common descent. But you complained that then God can be seen *everywhere*. I answered that this precisely is the position you want to attack. So quit complaining about what your opponents actually believe, quit misrepresenting them, and deal with their arguments.
“Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)”
I have no idea from what pocket you have drawn these natural laws, but of course it must be a trick. I deny your concept of natural laws. I do believe that as a rule God faithfully does things in predictable ways. On what grounds do you believe there are such things as natural laws?
“If so (and I am not assuming agreement, that is why I ask), then when we observe a natural phenomenon, we assume that it is part of the natural laws.”
You do? I don’t. How do you account for the existence of natural laws?
“We see the sun rise and we know it is because the Earth’s rotation is bringing our part of the world into the sunlight. We don’t need to spend a minute wondering if this particular sunrise is somehow caused by God suspending the natural laws to do something miraculous.”
How do you know there is a natural law governing sunrise?
“When the trees begin to sprout new leaves in the Spring, we know it is because that is what trees do as part of their natural life cycle. We don’t need to debate whether God is suspending the natural laws and making it happen.”
Sorry, no neutral nor common ground here either. I don’t believe there are any natural laws governing tree growth. I do believe God makes trees grow. How do you know there are natural laws governing tree growth?
“I am not quite sure what you mean by “covenant-breaking idol,” so please elaborate.”
Sure. Here goes. You wrote somewhere: “it’s legitimate to tell people they don’t understand the theory [of evolution] if they’re repeatedly demanding to be shown something the theory never said would be there and refusing to accept that they have a mistaken expectation.” Now before you give Christians this piece of advice about the theory of evolution, you would do well to avoid writing stuff like this: “Once you start bringing a God who can and does disrupt the natural laws at his whim, you can claim anything. . . Once you start positing a God who can do anything he wants, then nothing is evidence of anything.” I didn’t bring and I didn’t posit. Sorry the God I believe in is different from what you would like Him to be. The God you describe does not exist. The true God is a covenant-keeping God, who promises continuity and uniformity in nature, and whose Word is sure and trustable.
SteveG: “Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened.”
ASaltyDog: “That, my friend, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, is a logical fallacy.”
SteveG: “Huh? How? It’s a logical fallacy to assume the workings of a known cause when we see the effect that the known cause causes? So let me get this straight . . . I don’t follow your reasoning here at all.”
No hope you’ll ever get this (or concede this) any time soon, evidently. But yes, it is a blatant, obvious, really bad logical fallacy, that is absolutely devastating to your argument here.
You said, “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.” If so, I asked, in case you maybe see the light, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent? Your appalling answer: “Common descent is the linchpin of evolutionary theory. Ultimately, all life comes through it. But in any single example where two organisms have similar adaptive measures, there may or may not be a direct line of descent between them.”
Wow Steve, you hang yourself and you don’t even notice it. Please don’t tell me you don’t see that you are left with no argument for evolution based on homology?
“Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof.”
This is not how you speak when not challenged in this way. Or aren’t you the same guy who wrote, “Science DOES contradict [biblical revelation], and it HAS been proven false.” So can you or can you not prove common descent? If you can, isn’t that unscientific? And if you cannot, what’s wrong with being a creationist?
“People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.”
Cheap shot. Watch this: “People who prefer to believe in evolution probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 6000 years, and probably not even then.”
“If you actually do mean that you regularly assume God is suspending the natural laws in order to do nothing more unusual than make the ground wet, I really do not know what to say. ”
There are no natural laws. There is God, and he has habits of doing things in certain ways.
I asked you, “Why don’t you start with a Creator?” You replied, “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.” Except, I asked, if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”? Now you answer, “Nope. And you are just assuming that I do. You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.”
Yeah, right. When have you seen natural laws the last time?
“Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study.”
Wow. And tell me, how does science get to know what the natural laws are in order to get the whole thing started?
You said, “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” I replied, “Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.” Again baffled, you wrote, “If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet. Where is the fallacy?”
Steve, you need to study basic concepts in logic, fast. Google for “affirming the consequent”. Then you’ll find you didn’t need to learn it — you are already a master of it.
“We find fossilized creatures at different layers, and we find them consistently distributed that way. That’s evidence that they lived at different times, separated by millions of years.”
This is one great example of your skill, kindof. If animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years, we would find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Now we DO find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Therefore these animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years. This may be the way evolutionists like to fool themselves into thinking they are whipping biblical creationism big time, but they are only exposing to the world their logical illiteracy.
And finally, you ask: “Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time.”
Easy: the zoological, historical, and soteriological implications of the biblical revelation. In short, if dinosaurs and dogs didn’t live at the same time, I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, so therefore dinosaurs and dogs must have lived at the same time. Now my turn. Find me one shred of evidence that penguins and giraffes share the same habitat.
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Peter Leavitt – 147
With that idea in mind, do you believe God could have created everything in 6 literal days?
Christ arose after three days, could that then mean it was 3 weeks, or three years?
Scripture says in Acts 1:1-5 that Christ Jesus spent 40 days with his disciples, could that then mean 40 months?
Do you think God wanted to mix us up?
Do you think God was/is able to preserve HIS Word so that we would have EXACTLY what HE wanted us to have, or do you think HE wanted to confound and confuse us?
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
30 So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20 NOTICE: the passage in Exodus . . . can there be some doubt to this Scripture as to days, hours, ETC., Is the sabbath a 24 hour day, or is it to last “eons”?
Do you believe that GOD Almighty making His Word available to us, could keep it pure until the LORD returns?
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Salty Dog … wow .. no natural laws, huh? Rain happens because God makes it happen every time, not because there are observable and consistent natural processes that cause moisture to evaporate, condense and fall?
Well, there’s no point in continuing then, since we don’t agree on even the most uncontroversial aspects of reality.
Just curious … before you got saved, did you take a lot of hallucinogenic drugs?
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SteveG Whoa there bucko. I’m not an atheist. Well then just what are you? Though your fundamental views are rather opaque, just about everything you write supports either hard atheism or at the least vague agnosticism.
Victoria, you need to understand that theistic evolution in the context of Creation is a quite compelling view held by many devout Christian scientists. The evidence for evolution is very credible. He, also, writes that the views of young earth creationists, however sincere, cannot be squared with either geological or genetic evidence; further that such a view makes Christians look foolish, just as the Catholic view of Galileo did in an earlier time. Christians who hold to archaic views in the face of convincing evidence are an embarrassment to their religion which places great value on Truth as opposed to narrow minded Fideism. Again Genesis is profound religious poetry and was never intended in the modern sense as a scientific treatise.
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In the above I meant that Collins also writes.
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Peter – 154
Peter, it would depend on whom you prefer to listen to. There are scientists who would not agree with evolution, and the reason is ‘THEY REALLY ARE BELIEVERS’ they aren’t trying to subvert God’s Word.
Interesting that you believe “fideism” which in essence means “faith” is “narrow minded. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Has GOD come down and told you that Genesis is nothing but “religious poetry” ? I believe NOT!
We find much in Genesis, …. Jacob, the 12 tribes of Israel, I suppose you believe that is nothing but “profound religious poetry” as well? Or is it a ‘pick and choose routine’ one that suits particular scientists, or some parts of Scripture that can pass, as they and YOU have decided it’s a ‘clean house’ sort of thing with Genesis?
The embarrassment to the Evangelical Church, are those who hold to evolution and disregard the Word of God, don’t believe the Word, they don’t have “faith” in what it says- Instead, they follow the latest ’so called Christian’ who speaks another ‘message’ as in ’science’ . . it truly is their god …….. one who would, by any crafty way, misdirect the Believers from God’s Word.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15
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Peter, you didn’t bother to answer the questions in post 152, WHY?
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Victoria, Christians, believing in God’s Truth, should welcome it above all from the Bible, though, also, from any source including that of modern science. There is nothing in the Bible that limits the truth to that book in itself. Western Civilization is based symbolically on both Jerusalem and Athens, or on both faith and reason.
I should suggest that you get a hold of Francis Collins’ book The Language of God. and read it carefully. He is fully as devout a Christian as you are and presents compelling arguments for the truth of both evolution and Genesis.
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Peter you still aren’t able to answer the questions is post 152.
Remember the verses in Exodus. Check out Exodus 20 and 31, does that mean we consider this nothing more than “religious poetry” as you quoted earlier, regarding Genesis. We have a problem now, we need to decide what to do with Exodus – so far we have Genesis and Exodus. That must be nothing but “religious poetry” according to you, and who told you this, did GOD?
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Exodus 31:17
So again, we have six days in Exodus 31…..or was that six thousand years for each day, give or take a thousand?
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#154: SteveG Whoa there bucko. I’m not an atheist. Well then just what are you? Though your fundamental views are rather opaque, just about everything you write supports either hard atheism or at the least vague agnosticism.
I generally call myself a deist, but in truth I don’t think I fit into any neat label. I believe God exists and I believe God created everything, but I also believe he did it by creating natural laws and forces that we can discover and understand, rather than by ongoing direct intervention.
I believe God can intervene in the world, but I doubt he does very often.
I believe God revealed what we need to know in the universe itself and in the human sense of morality. I don’t discount the possibility of special revelation, but I think special revelation applies to the people it’s revealed to and not to everyone … the things that we all need to know are in the general revelation I described.
We need to distinguish between evolution, which is a credible empirically based theory, and Darwinism, which the atheists including Steve G and Erasmus claim supports the rather implausible notion that life forms are created by some naturalistic or materialistic form of natural selection by random variation. This blatant myth is quite implausible though it supports their conveniently absurd notion that humans are mere animals with complete moral and pelvic freedom.
This is where you lose me. In speaking of Collins’ book, you seem to accept evolution, but here you speak of evolution and “Darwinism” as if they were different things. If you understand Collins, you know that natural selection operating on random variation is exactly how evolution works.
So I don’t understand how you seem to both accept and reject evolution in the same breath.
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and I also think your obsession with “pelvic freedom,” while a nice turn of phrase, is misplaced.
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STEVEG,
I rarely agree with you BUT: as you POST…”So I don’t understand how you seem to both accept and reject evolution in the same breath.”
It appears to be a ‘created evolutionary malt’-
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I’d like to know what makes SteveG think he’s a “former Christian.”
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Are you suggesting that I still am, or that I never was?
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I am beginning to wonder how many true Born Again Believers are posting on this thread, not to mention this blog.
There are RED FLAGS, and those who are truly Born Again know what they are.
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victoria been there done that took forever to get the smell out.
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Victoria: Concerning the length of the days of Creation, there is a clue in what the Genesis text says about the third day [Gen 1:11-13]. We know how long it takes for fruit trees to grow and bear fruit. So unless we should imagine that happening as in time-lapse photography, then it most likely took much longer than twenty-four hours.
In addition, how can the seventh day be a literal twenty-four-hour time period if it represents God’s Sabbath rest from Creation that still continues today? We are actually living in the seventh day.
At any rate, Christians have a variety of viewpoints on this issue, and it’s not essential to salvation. Please don’t judge whether Christians are born again based on this issue.
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Tychicus
Literal is just what a day means, be it a six day week in which we work, or one day in which we observe the Sabbath, its a day. We observe one day a week for Sabbath, and work six days.
God isn’t a God of confusion as some would like to make it.
The Word of God is either true, or it isn’t, you cannot take one Book like Genesis, and say it is “religious poetry” . . . you are left with Exodus. When anyone tries to tear down the Word of God, I question their belief in Jesus Christ.
What does the Bible say about those who claim to be Believers? Are we to judge those within, or those without?
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I guess the Morning & Evening descriptors can be taken as poetic, but it seems to indicate a single day. I have trouble harmonizing the time sequence between Genesis 1 and 2. In the second chapter, God creates man “when no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up” (vs. 2:5). Perhaps the creation in chapter 1 was in seed form alone?
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See how a discussion about (supposedly) real events suddenly becomes foolishly impaired by trying to decipher the words of bronze age goatherders?
It was pretty simple for me. It’s obvious genesis is bunk, and as some of you have noted that makes the rest of the story bunk. Or at least less authoritate than most christianists claim. Jesus referenced Duh Flud, and I can see that the biblical version of that story never happened. Resolution: God-beasts either don’t know everything or it is all made up. Jesus referenced Adam, a person who likely never existed and at the very least never existed in the way he is described in Genesis (as the first man on earth). Resolution: God-beasts either don’t know everything (contrary to claim) or it is all made up.
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Erasmus: It seems that you’ve already had a few too many too early on a Sunday morning – just lie down for awhile, then come back and talk sense..
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While Erasmus’s language in #170 is harsher than it needs to be, the point is right on target.
Here we see poor Norm P. in #169 struggling to harmonize a clear contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. Genesis 1 says that the earth brought forth vegetation on the third day and God created man on the sixth day. Genesis 2 says clearly that when God made man, no plants had yet come from the earth .
(Not to mention that Genesis 1 says that God created man and woman at the same time, while Genesis 2 says that Adam had to review all the animals first to see if there was already a suitable helper available, before God had the idea to create a woman.)
If you don’t insist on taking the Bible literally, this presents no problem at all, neither scientific or theological. Each account imparts specific theological ideas and the fact that they don’t easily harmonize isn’t an issue. Whether you’re a Christian who believes the theology, or a non-Christian who is interested in understanding the message while not feeling bound to believe it, a non-literal reading works well.
But if you are a literalist, then you have to come up with ideas like, maybe Genesis 1 just refers to seeds (even though it vividly describes the plants coming forth out of the ground), or maybe Genesis 1 tells a condensed version of the creation of man and woman while Genesis 2 goes into more detail (and let’s not notice that it also shows God as actually thinking one of the “beasts of the field” might be adequate before seeing the need to create woman.)
Incidentally, this is not a new debate. Jewish and Christians theologians have always held different views on just how literally the Genesis account was to be taken. Origen, who lived from about AD 185 to 254 and remains one of the most respected scholars of the early church, wrote:
What intelligent person will suppose that there was a first, a second and a third day, that there was evening and morning without the existence of the sun and moon and stars? Or that there was a first day without a sky? Who could be so silly as to think that God planted a paradise in Eden in the East the way a human gardener does, and that he made in this garden a visible and palpable tree of life, so that by tasting its fruit with one’s bodily teeth one should receive life? And in the same way, that someone could partake of good and evil by chewing what was taken from this tree? If God is represented as walking in the garden in the evening, or Adam as hiding under the tree, I do not think anyone can doubt that these things, by means of a story which did not in fact materially occur, are intended to express certain mysteries in a metaphorical way. (De Principiis IV, 3, 1)
In about AD 408, St. Augustine wrote:
It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation. (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])
So Biblical literalists are not even fighting for the “traditional” way of reading Scripture. They just apparently lack the imagination or the courage to think outside of the narrow definitions that literalism affords them.
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SteveG at #153:
He wrote:
“Salty Dog … wow .. no natural laws, huh? Rain happens because God makes it happen every time, not because there are observable and consistent natural processes that cause moisture to evaporate, condense and fall? Well, there’s no point in continuing then, since we don’t agree on even the most uncontroversial aspects of reality. Just curious … before you got saved, did you take a lot of hallucinogenic drugs?”
Hear, hear! Now get this folks.
SteveG, the ever-whining Deist, refuses to debate me, a classical Reformed Christian, because he complains that I am not a Deist. SteveG is prepared to debate evolutionism vs. creationism only with people who have already abandoned the biblical doctrine of God’s sovereignty, and have embraced a deistic view of nature. And if someone is not a Deist, he must be a drug addict, because Deism is “uncontroversial”. Some people really need to get out more. And although it’s a mortal sin to misrepresent and ignore the Theory of Evolution, on the other hand misrepresenting Christians, refusing to answer their questions, and dismissing them as crazy clowns is okay, if it helps diverting attention while he tries to make a quiet escape.
Yes, folks, this is the very same guy who has just accused Christians of lacking courage (#172). This is the very same guy who wrote: “I decided to follow the facts wherever they led.” (#109)
Well, it turns out the facts led him to run for his life. The backdoor is over there, SteveG. Pack your things, and you may safely sneak away from there. How unobserved, though, I really can’t say. Farewell.
I rest my case.
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Salty Dog: Most Christians understand that for the most part, things in nature happen because the natural laws the govern nature cause them to happen. When you drop your keys in the parking lot, they fall to the ground because of gravity, not because God catches them and pulls them to the ground.
Most Christians believe that God intervenes in the world at specific times for specific reasons, not everytime anything happens at all.
This has nothing to do with “Deism,” it has to do with understanding reality. Things happen in nature because the laws of nature — whether they are divinely decreed laws or just happenstance — work in predictable and observable ways. If you drop your keys in the parking lot and instead of falling to ground they hang there in mid-air waiting for you to retrieve them, then you might have an instance where God intervened. If they fall, it’s because of gravity.
If you are not able to agree to even this uncontroversial idea, then either you are playing some sort of game, or you are living in a very different reality than the rest of us.
Either way, we have no common ground to discuss anything.
Don’t hold your breath waiting for me to “make a quiet escape,” however. I have no intention of going anywhere.
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Pauline and Peter Leavitt,
Here is question for theistic evolutionists (not sure if you are in this category, but perhaps you can answer this):
1. Please explain Rom 5:12-14 and 1 Cor 15:22 which says there was no death prior to Adam, according to Genesis 1-3.
2. How do you explain Jesus quoting from Genesis 3 (Matt 19:4, Mark 10:6)?
3. Please explain Christ’s genealogy that goes all the way back to Adam (Luke 3:38)?
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned … nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.” Rom 5:12,14
Someone who cannot or will not reconcile these verses can still be a Christian, however they will remain ignorant about the purpose for a Savior to come and triumph over death. They will remain ignorant of the full meaning of the resurrection: “O death where is thy sting! O grave where is thy victory”.
P.S. I don’t use the term ‘ignorant’ in a derogatory sense. I am simply saying that theistic evolutionists choose to ignore parts of the Bible that explain the purpose of Christianity’s most fundamental fact, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Note that the resurrection was bodily, therefore it is invalid to spiritualize this and say it wasn’t physical death.
Once again it is perfectly fine for Christians to disagree on these issues. I am not asking that we agree. However, I would like to hear your explanation.
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#172 SteveG “Genesis 2 says clearly that when God made man, no plants had yet come from the earth.”
No it doesn’t. You are making a false assumption that Gen 2 is chronological.
“(Not to mention that Genesis 1 says that God created man and woman at the same time”
No it doesn’t. If I say I made a sandwich and a drink, no one assumes they were made at precisely the same instant.
You are applying bogus interpretation that would be ludicrous even for everyday speech.
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SteveG: You may continue imagining that restating the dogmas of Deism “has nothing to do with Deism”, but I remain skeptical. I think I see a connection between the two things.
Uncontroversial, eh? I told you you need to get out more. Laws of nature? How do you know there are laws of nature? The law of gravity? How do you know, given your worldview, that there is a law of gravity? Wow, what a waste of breath. I need some sleep.
“Either way, we have no common ground to discuss anything.”
I get it, I already told you. Farewell then.
Folks, a prerequisite for being accepted to discuss creationism vs. evolutionism with SteveG is that you must abandon the biblical doctrine of God’s sovereignty and accept a deistic view of nature. Otherwise he will not only turn you down, he will also think you must be drug dealers or something. Perhaps he’ll call the police. Or mummy.
“Don’t hold your breath waiting for me to “make a quiet escape,” however. I have no intention of going anywhere.”
You already have. I am breathing normally. I won’t hold my breath waiting for you to come back and face me either.
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Xion, I accept Christ as the Jewish Messiah and as a personal savior. I accept the Bible as essentially though not in all parts the literal Word of God. It is a canon of documents written by fallen human beings under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. that the Catholic Church put together based on its view of the most holy Jewish and Christian documents in its possession.
The following from James Robbins of the Trinity Foundation on C.S. Lewis’ view of the Bible wouls be a fair short statement of my view:
…Nor did Lewis stop with these adjectives to describe what he called “Holy Scripture.” He wrote: “Naivety, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not ‘the Word of God’ in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history. It carries the Word of God….”11 Scripture is not the word of God; it “carries” the word of God. “It is Christ Himself,” Lewis said, “not the Bible, who is the true word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him.”12 The Bible is not the true word of God, according to Lewis. In order to lead us to Christ, it must be read in the right spirit (he did not tell us what that is) and with the guidance of good teachers. It does not speak for itself, but only through its interpreters. Somehow, when we least expect it but truly need it for our “spiritual life,” we will know “whether a particular passage is rightly translated or is myth (but of course myth specially chosen by God from among countless myths to carry a spiritual truth) or history…. But we must not use the Bible (our fathers too often did) as a sort of Encyclopedia out of which texts…can be taken for use as weapons.”13
Every day I read a chapter from both the Old and New Testaments and have been through the whole of it countless times with inestimable profit.
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SteveG #136
Your argument is about supposed vestigial structures. This is a very old argument that has mostly been proven false. Many of these so-called useless parts have been found to be not so useless after all. Darwin said body hair was useless. Apparently he never had body odor or an insect crawl on him. Discover Magazine provides such a list, with lots of weasel words like “may have been”, “may be”, “most likely”. In other words, they don’t have a clue but need to fill space on a page.
As for vitamin C production, you say we have a gene to produce vitamin C, but it is non-functional. This is not evolution, but devolution. Entropy, decay, disease, suffering and death is completely in line with a creationist understanding of life after the Fall of Man. Everything is getting worse, not better.
Evolutionists have yet to prove that mutations and death cause an upward chain of improvements that lead to higher and higher life forms. Creationists say exactly the opposite, that everything was created perfect, but now is on a downhill slope of disease, death and extinction. This explains why there was such a greater variety of species in the past, most of which have now become extinct.
Evolutionists say everything is getting better, while science shows precisely the opposite.
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Xion,
Good questions. I’ll try to answer them. (I did not take “ignorant” as derogatory, necessarily, but as meaning “not knowing” rather than “knowing but choosing to ignore.)
Regarding death prior to Adam, even if I look at Adam as a literal first human (I have said I consider that possibility, I just don’t consider it imperative), I think the earth and plants and animals had been around far longer than 6 24-hour days. I understand the passages in Romans and 1 Cor. to refer to human death, not death of other life forms. There is a good discussion of this topic at reasons.org (which takes the view that humans were specially created by God, but that other life forms had lived for long ages prior to that).
If Adam and the Fall are figurative rather than literal, then the death which we all suffer as a consequence of sin is spiritual death, being cut off from God. And since the ordinary meaning of the word “death” is physical death, to speak of spiritual death is figurative anyway. But that does not in any way negate our need of a Savior to give spiritual life.
Jesus quoted the verse that says “God made them male and female.” No mention of how or when, except that it was “from the beginning.” Since the context is marriage/divorce, the only relevant beginning is of human life, whenever that was. He quoted the next verse also, regarding a man leaving his father and mother and becoming attached to his wife, which likewise says nothing about the means or timing of creation, only that it was God’s purpose from the first for men and women to form these attachments. (And it could hardly be talking about Adam, as he had no mother and father to leave.)
The genealogies in the Bible are often incomplete, skipping over some generations. I remember in Bible school (a fundamentalist school that did insist on believing in 6 24-hour day creation), asking our Bible teacher about Matt. 1:5-6. It says that the mother of Boaz was Rahab, who lived in Joshua’s time. But Boaz also appears to be the great-grandfather of King David, based on these verses. Yet the entire book of Judges, which we were taught spanned 350 years, came between the time of Joshua and 1 Samuel, where David comes in. So I asked just how did Rahab’s son have a great-grandson who lived more than 350 years later (David isn’t at the very beginning of 1 Samuel either). My professor’s answer was that it is common in the genealogies of the Bible to only mention some of the more prominent names, particularly in a case such as Matthew’s where he is trying to use a mnemonic device (3 groups of 14 generations) to make it easier to learn. So saying “begat” didn’t necessarily mean that the next name in the list was the man’s own son, but rather a descendant, possibly multiple generations down the line.
With this in mind, I take the genealogy in Luke to hit the major names known, going back as far as anyone knew, eventually of course going back to Adam as the progenitor of the human race. The point apparently being that Jesus was related to everyone, not just Jews. And I think that point is valid whether or not you think in terms of a literal Adam.
I don’t say any of this to try to convince someone that this is the best way to view those Scriptures, simply to answer Xion’s question about how one can look at them without believing in a literal Adam.
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OK, Dog, I’m having a slow day so what the heck, I’ll engage your arguments from #151.
I do not believe there are any such things as a natural laws as you apparently intend them. I do believe that “anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace” is ultimately caused by God’s deliberate action. I also believe that God keeps His word. This is what makes science possible.
OK, how about this then: Things normally happen in repeatable, predictable ways. If you drop an object, it falls. If you drop an egg into boiling water and leave it there a few minutes, its liquid contents become solid. If you then put the boiling water into a container and keep it a temperature of less than 32 degrees Farenheit for a period of time, the water becomes solid.
I call it natural law. You call it the deliberate action of God. Other than the term used, is there a practical difference?
You admitted that of course if I bring God into this debate, then homologies can’t be said to be necessary proof of common descent. But you complained that then God can be seen *everywhere*. I answered that this precisely is the position you want to attack. So quit complaining about what your opponents actually believe, quit misrepresenting them, and deal with their arguments.
Take your own advice. That is not the position I am talking about at all. Someone who believes the universe has no operating principles at all, just the individual and deliberate actions of God who just happens to prefer to make the same decisions every time except those few times when makes an exception, are beyond the reach of logic and science. If the universe does not operate under predictable rules, then there is no way we can ever really know anything about it. God COULD have created you yesterday and also created a brainful of false memories for you to give you the illusion that you’ve lived for however many years you’ve been around. No way to prove that didn’t happen, but also absolutely no reason to think it did.
This is not the position I’m discussing because there is simply no point in debating a person who believes that way. No matter how much evidence I could present to you, you would shrug off with “God did it that way,” and what can I say to that? Nothing, really. So why bother?
The position I DO seek to engage — it’s a friendly discussion, not a war, so I will decline to use your hostile verb — is that the scientific evidence supports Biblical Creationism. People who are taking that position are rooted in the real-world understanding that when things happen they have effects, and the effects can be analyzed to deduce the cause. They may be mistaken, but they are approaching the question with the same grounding principles that most of us do, so there is common ground to discuss.
How many of your fellow Christians have come to your aid, Dog, to say yes, we do believe there are no natural laws? Zero, by my count. Are you sure you are such a traditional Christian?
“Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)”
I have no idea from what pocket you have drawn these natural laws, but of course it must be a trick. I deny your concept of natural laws. I do believe that as a rule God faithfully does things in predictable ways. On what grounds do you believe there are such things as natural laws?
On the grounds that when I drop my keys in the parking lot, they never hang in midair. They always fall.
But as I said at the top, perhaps we’re talking about the same thing using different vocabularies.
“We see the sun rise and we know it is because the Earth’s rotation is bringing our part of the world into the sunlight. We don’t need to spend a minute wondering if this particular sunrise is somehow caused by God suspending the natural laws to do something miraculous.”
How do you know there is a natural law governing sunrise?
“When the trees begin to sprout new leaves in the Spring, we know it is because that is what trees do as part of their natural life cycle. We don’t need to debate whether God is suspending the natural laws and making it happen.”
Sorry, no neutral nor common ground here either. I don’t believe there are any natural laws governing tree growth. I do believe God makes trees grow. How do you know there are natural laws governing tree growth?
I was mistaken, you’re right …. we do have no common ground. Unless you are playing some elaborate practical joke, which I really hope is the case.
“I am not quite sure what you mean by “covenant-breaking idol,” so please elaborate.”
Sure. Here goes. You wrote somewhere: “it’s legitimate to tell people they don’t understand the theory [of evolution] if they’re repeatedly demanding to be shown something the theory never said would be there and refusing to accept that they have a mistaken expectation.” Now before you give Christians this piece of advice about the theory of evolution, you would do well to avoid writing stuff like this: “Once you start bringing a God who can and does disrupt the natural laws at his whim, you can claim anything. . . Once you start positing a God who can do anything he wants, then nothing is evidence of anything.” I didn’t bring and I didn’t posit. Sorry the God I believe in is different from what you would like Him to be. The God you describe does not exist. The true God is a covenant-keeping God, who promises continuity and uniformity in nature, and whose Word is sure and trustable.
Which would imply that God has established laws by which the Creation operates, except in those cases where He chooses to suspend the normal order of things and do something different.
So you do believe in natural laws, you just refuse to call them by that name?
You continue to be a conundrum.
You said, “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.” If so, I asked, in case you maybe see the light, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent? Your appalling answer: “Common descent is the linchpin of evolutionary theory. Ultimately, all life comes through it. But in any single example where two organisms have similar adaptive measures, there may or may not be a direct line of descent between them.”
Wow Steve, you hang yourself and you don’t even notice it. Please don’t tell me you don’t see that you are left with no argument for evolution based on homology?
I think it’s more that you didn’t understand me. Let’s try again.
Ultimately, every life form is explained by common descent. The issue with convergent evolution becomes the question of just how far back you have to go to find the common ancestor between any two species. For similar creatures, say cats and dogs, it’s not as far back as for dogs and insects.
There may be lineages where two lines develop similar adaptive features that don’t go all the way back to the common ancestor. Insects developed flight long before there were birds. Go back far enough and birds and insects have a common ancestor — common descent — but it is too far back to account for the similar adaptation — convergent.
Of course, I suppose it’s easier to just say God done it, and leave it at that.
“Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof.”
This is not how you speak when not challenged in this way. Or aren’t you the same guy who wrote, “Science DOES contradict [biblical revelation], and it HAS been proven false.” So can you or can you not prove common descent?
Here you conflate two very different things. Let’s imagine that over the next ten years a series of discoveries prove that Darwin was absolutely wrong and evolution has been a red herring all this time.
That would still not prove that Biblical Creationism is true. This is not an A or B choice, where if you prove one false the other must be true. You would still need positive evidence in favor of Creationism (or at least you would in order to show people skeptical of that view objective reasons why they should consider it.)
Those of us who operate it the real world of natural law (or a God who operates consistently if you prefer) understand that the evidence does not support the idea of all life forms appearing at the same time, or within days of each other. There is no evidence of a global flood or a single global extinction. Human beings did not all speak the same language until a sudden catastrophic scattering and gave them all different ones. (And people having different languages doesn’t prevent them from communicating as the omniscient God mistakenly believed it would in the Tower of Babel story.)
Even if we had no idea what did happen, even if our ideas about evolution turned out to be wrong, you would still not have evidence that Creation is the correct alternative.
Before you go around accusing people of misrepresenting others’ views, you should look in the mirror. Thanks to the predictable laws of nature, I am sure you’ll see your own reflection.
If you can, isn’t that unscientific? And if you cannot, what’s wrong with being a creationist?
You are free to believe whatever you want to.
“People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.”
Cheap shot. Watch this: “People who prefer to believe in evolution probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 6000 years, and probably not even then.”
what’s cheap about it? Your converse is also true.
I asked you, “Why don’t you start with a Creator?” You replied, “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.” Except, I asked, if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”? Now you answer, “Nope. And you are just assuming that I do. You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.”
Yeah, right. When have you seen natural laws the last time?
Just now. I press keys on my keyboard and they cause the desired letters and words to appear on my screen. They do this because of known principles about physics and electronics, not because God is making the words appear.
“Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study.”
Wow. And tell me, how does science get to know what the natural laws are in order to get the whole thing started?
Observation. Measurement. Testing. Repeating. If something happens the same way every time when the same conditions apply, you have found a natural law.
You said, “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” I replied, “Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.” Again baffled, you wrote, “If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet. Where is the fallacy?”
Steve, you need to study basic concepts in logic, fast.
Here you actually do have somewhat of a point. I am familiar with the error of affirming the consequent and your if-then series illustrates it; however, the scientific method is not guilty of it.
And importantly, neither is my example. If I had said “When it rains, the ground gets wet. If the ground is wet, it must have rained,” THAT would be the logic error.
I didn’t say that, however. My B statement was, “If the ground is wet, something made it wet.” Maybe rain. Maybe, as you noted earlier, melting snow. Maybe just dew. Maybe the fire department did come open all the hydrants during the night. But something caused the ground to be wet.
As an illustration of natural law, it means the most probable cause can often be deduced. If it is the middle of summer in the tropics, no snow around, and you heard the rain falling overnight, you can be confident assuming the ground is wet because it rained. If there were clear skies all night, then the wetness is likely just a morning dew.
So yes, I did overlook your description of the error, but I did not actually commit the error. So, score one-half point for you. Be proud.
“We find fossilized creatures at different layers, and we find them consistently distributed that way. That’s evidence that they lived at different times, separated by millions of years.”
This is one great example of your skill, kindof. If animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years, we would find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Now we DO find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Therefore these animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years. This may be the way evolutionists like to fool themselves into thinking they are whipping biblical creationism big time, but they are only exposing to the world their logical illiteracy.
Even the most ardent evolutionary theorist would agree this is an inference. It is the most likely inference. It is supported by a host of other evidence beyond the geological distribution.
But yes, if God wanted to distribute the fossils through the geological strata in a way that just makes it look like evolution is the best explanation — to trick us I guess so we won’t get saved and make heaven overcrowded — then nobody can prove that’s not what happened. So please, do go on believing in Creationism, your best evidence being “well nobody can prove it didn’t happen that way.”
And finally, you ask: “Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time.”
Easy: the zoological, historical, and soteriological implications of the biblical revelation. In short, if dinosaurs and dogs didn’t live at the same time, I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, so therefore dinosaurs and dogs must have lived at the same time.
Ha! You accuse me of a logic error and then offer as your evidence a theological claim that is in no way objectively observable.
Quite rich. This is a rocking good joke.
Now my turn. Find me one shred of evi
dence that penguins and giraffes share the same habitat.
Find me anyone who claims they do. Why should I try to provide evidence for claim no one makes?
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Xion at #176:
#172 SteveG “Genesis 2 says clearly that when God made man, no plants had yet come from the earth.”
No it doesn’t. You are making a false assumption that Gen 2 is chronological.
Hmm… Gen. 2:4-7 sound chronological to me.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up — for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground — the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
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The Scripture which we have today was given to men by the Holy Spirit written by those entrusted with TRUTH, writing as they were LED by the Holy Spirit of God. Nor were those who translated the documents so long ago in any way conspiring to delude the world as to the LORD’S virgin birth, ministry, death on the cross, and the triumphant Resurrection from the grave – However, the CONSPIRACY takes shape when those down through the ages, and more importantly in the past 200 years up to TODAY, weave what they consider to be a very cleaver way in which to attack the Bible, either by supposed knowledge or twisting passages of Scripture to meet their ‘agenda’ or ‘cult’ –
Those who wish to weave some sort of conspiracy, or fault as to the Bible’s authenticity have no proof of what they say, as to the accuracy and reliability of Scripture, accusing Old Testament ‘Prophets’ and Scripture as not being the “true word of God”, what proof do these so called ‘CONTRADICTIONIST’S’ have? ….. NONE! They often add Christ’s disciples who were chosen by Him for the preaching of the Gospel into a jigsaw puzzle, . . . . and also those disciples who sat under the Apostles to learn ‘first hand’ about the Savior, OR the accusations are hurled at the translators who worked with the original manuscripts, as not being equal to the task, however the LORD put them in a place to do just that TRANSLATE the manuscripts, and they did.
Those individuals who believe THEY ALONE are capable of reassembling, due to error or negligence, or down right untruthfulness are nothing more than antichrist – The LORD warned us there would be those who would come with ‘false gospel’ and they have been with us forever- There intent is to deceive those who believe in Jesus Christ, to put DOUBT in the minds of Believers, and those who would come to know the risen LORD.
Hebrew and Greek are ancient languages as are Aramaic and Latin – many pretend to have knowledge of these languages, be they in the ‘old form’ or the ‘new’ then becoming the so called ‘teacher’ of any and all who will listen, as though they are now ‘equipped’ with superior knowledge to translate the Scriptures, . .
The CONSPIRACY against GOD’S Word has not worked, those who are steadfast in their belief of the LORD Jesus Christ, and His DEITY are unmoved, those who would try to ‘delude’ the saints are the very ones who have fallen under their own delusion –
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 2 Timothy 4
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Xion at #179: As for vitamin C production, you say we have a gene to produce vitamin C, but it is non-functional. This is not evolution, but devolution. Entropy, decay, disease, suffering and death is completely in line with a creationist understanding of life after the Fall of Man. Everything is getting worse, not better.
Evolution only means change. It’s not always for the better. This is a common misconception.
The gene regulating Vitamin C production is one of the many examples of evidences that suggest common descent. The gene went defective and some point in time before humans and chimpanzees diverged down different evolutionary paths. The fact that the defective version is found in both but not in other mammals — but that it is the same gene — is one peg.
If it were the only one, it might not mean much, but I just offered it as an example.
Why would the Fall of Man also affect the gene in chimpanzees but not in zebras?
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Xion at #179: <i.This explains why there was such a greater variety of species in the past, most of which have now become extinct.
How do you know this to be true? There were species in the distant past that are extinct now. There are species now that didn’t exist in the distant past. I do not know that anyone has shown that there a greater number of individual species in the distant past. In fact, since fossilzation is such a relatively rare occurrence, I would think it’s probably not possible to know how many different species existed in the past. More than we’re aware of no doubt, but how many more? Who knows?
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STEVEG,
It’s interesting that you quote mined from Origen and Augustine since they were both young-earthers. The problem they had was with six 24 hr days of creation – not the age of the earth. Augustine said it all happened simultaneously and the days are just giving a logical order of the events and are not meant to be physical time. Origen believed the days before the sun and moon and stars were created were not real days and that time actually began after the creation of the heavenly bodies on the fourth day. But they both believed that the earth was only several thousand years old.
They didn’t take the six days as 24 hr days but they did believe that God created in the beginning, that the beginning was recent, that man was created in His image and that sin entered the world through Adam, the first man. If the problems with Genesis moved you to reject the entire Bible then I hope you reconsider at some point. The “non-literalists” you quoted didn’t understand every single scripture but it didn’t cause them to reject the whole.
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Victoria, I agree with all of the statements in 1-5, though not one of them argues that every word of Scripture is inerrant. Christ himself taught that He came to fulfill God’s Law, though he said nothing about every word of Scripture being inerrant.
The fact is that for millennia we have had devout Jewish and Christian writers differing in their interpretation of Scripture. To claim that all the men and women who wrote Biblical prose and poetry wrote inerrantly is beyond any sensible comprehension.
The Bible in its essence is the Word of God written by men guided by the Holy Spirit; however, these men are bound to some degree by both time and place- just as you and I are- along with the ordinary faults of fallen men, as the Bible teaches is true of every human being on earth that has ever lived.
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HOW LONG were Adam and Eve in the Garden
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.Genesis 2:8
(Not until Genesis 8 is it mentioned God planted a garden, until this time was there a garden? it appears there wasn’t. This verse also says God put the man (Adam) in the garden.)
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Genesis 2:15
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Genesis 1:3
(Adam and Eve had been in the Garden HOW LONG? None of us know the answer to that question, in fact we aren’t even given a clue. It could have been hundreds or thousands of years. It would make sense that in the beginning when they were in the Garden, they didn’t go even close to the tree they were forbidden to eat, but as time passed the woman was tempted, and as we all know disobeyed God.)
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Genesis 3:24
(The Garden of Eden is obviously a ‘PLACE’ we can see this as God drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden. In this way wouldn’t you be able to see that the whole earth was not covered by the garden? How long were Adam and Eve in the Garden before they were they were driven out? This question, and the length of time they were in the garden is very mind provoking.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. Genesis 1
What was going on in the world at large while Adam and Eve were in the garden? there obviously were life forms, God had made them!
How long were Adam and Eve in the Garden? Thousands of years, or LONGER?
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SBG at #186: It’s interesting that you quote mined from Origen and Augustine since they were both young-earthers. The problem they had was with six 24 hr days of creation – not the age of the earth. Augustine said it all happened simultaneously and the days are just giving a logical order of the events and are not meant to be physical time. Origen believed the days before the sun and moon and stars were created were not real days and that time actually began after the creation of the heavenly bodies on the fourth day. But they both believed that the earth was only several thousand years old.
Sure, but that’s neither surprising nor important. They both lived centuries before the evidence that suggested the great age of the Earth and universe began to be understand. The first dinosaur to be described in scientific literature was in 1824. Astronomers hadn’t even figured out the Earth goes around the Sun rather than the converse in the time of either Augustine or Origen.
There was no Old Earth view to be had in their time.
What’s important about them is that they both articulated reasons for not insisting that the Bible be taken literally in every regard. I offer them as a counter to people such as Outkast and Victoria who believe that reading it any way but literally is somehow heretical.
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By the way SBG, it’s only quote mining if you use a partial or out-of-context quote to make it appear that the writer/speaker meant something different from what he actually did mean. Excerpting an entire passage that illustrates a point the writer/speaker actually did mean doesn’t count.
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Erasmus, first the Bible was written well after the Bronze Age by learned men from the Axial age, roughly 500 B.C.,and afterwards. Second, the Biblical writers demonstrate far more understanding and wisdom about human life than any atheistic Darwinist that I have read.
Actually, we do have some excellent Bronze Age literature from the Akkadians, Egyptians, Hittites, and Indians (The Rig Veda) that would be well worth your perusal.
Your assumption that only modern “scientific” writers are capable of any truth rather reveals a profound ignorance about the wisdom of many people of genius in all ages. Your understanding of world literature is at best about at the sixth-grade level.
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STEVEG,
Point taken. We must be discerning about which parts are clearly literal and which aren’t. But as Luther points out below, we should be careful how much we allegorize scripture. I think what’s most important about Genesis 1-3 is that God exists, He created time, space, & matter (and all the “natural laws”), He created us in His image (significantly different than the animals), and we screwed up so we all need a savior.
Luther,
“I have often asserted that I take no delight in allegories. Nevertheless, I was so enchanted by them in my youth that under the influence of the examples of Origen and Jerome, whom I admired as the greater theologians, I thought that everything had to be turned into allegories. Augustine, too, makes frequent use of allegories. But while I was following their examples, I finally realized that to my own great harm I had followed an empty shadow and had left unconsidered the heart and core of the Scriptures. Later on, therefore, I began to have a dislike for allegories. They do indeed give pleasure, particularly when they have some delightful allusions. Therefore I usually compare them to pretty pictures. But to the same extent that the natural color of bodies surpasses the picture . . . the historical narrative surpasses the allegory” Lectures on Genesis
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Oh, this is funny! I just noticed it.
Harrison in the original post:
Oh, we found old fishes with flippers that looked like fingers, and old birds with scaly skin like dinosaurs, but science always eventually determines that these creatures belong to this or that species and aren’t, in fact, linking anything to anything.
Galadriel in post #3 quotes and asks: Examples, please?
Harrison happily obliges in #5 with links to two resources … both of which argue exactly the opposite of his point.
The link to PBS leads to a page that begins:
In 2004, a field crew digging in the Canadian Arctic unearthed the fossil remains of a half-fish, half-amphibian that would all but confirm paleontologists’ theories about how land-dwelling tetrapods (four-limbed animals, including us) evolved from their fish ancestors. The animal was a so-called lobe-finned fish that lived about 375 million years ago. Named Tiktaalik rosae by its discoverers, it is a classic example of a transitional form, one that bridges the evolutionary gap between two quite different types of animal. Below, see this and four other well-known fossil transitions, which clearly indicate Darwinian evolution in action.
Now maybe Harrison intended those pages to show only the evidence of the claims being made. I surely hope so, because there’s not one word in either of them that supports his original airy dismissal of such claims.
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#188 “How long were Adam and Eve in the Garden? Thousands of years, or LONGER?”
Victoria,
Interesting question. We discussed it recently in an adult Sunday School class at church (doing an overview of the Bible). The teacher (who definitely takes Genesis literally) offered as his best guess (since it obviously doesn’t say how long) that it was probably more than a few days but less than a year. His reasoning:
We may assume Adam and Eve enjoyed each other sexually. Sex is a good gift given by God, not in any way a result of the Fall. But there is no record of them having any children prior to the Fall. (And if they had, those children would not have had sinful natures. So after the Fall, you would have had fallen parents and un-fallen children.) And it seems highly unlikely that a perfectly healthy man and woman would have lived together, enjoying sex, and not having any kids, for a great length of time.
Just his opinion – but I thought it was a sensible one.
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VICTORIA,
The position you are taking means that you believe that Origen and St. Augustine among others were not Christians because they didn’t believe that the six days of creation were six 24 hr days. Does this also mean that anyone who sees that there are missing names in the genealogies and interprets that to mean that the time frame from one ancestor to the next is unsure – is not a Christian? So we all must believe in Bishop Ussher’s date of October 23rd, 4004 BC to be Christians?
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SteveG, I distinguish between the empirical truth of evolution and Darwinism in that any trend of thought ending with an “ism” usually is a sign of some sort of fevered ideology. One doesn’t hear of Newtonism, Einsteinism, or Bohrism. Darwin himself was far from being a Darwinist.
As to “pelvic Freedom” that was a toss off point that a Greek philosophy professor of mine at Harvard College back in the late fifties, by the name of Demos, made in a lecture regarding the tendency of Darwin’s followers to confuse the scientific truth of evolution with proof of metaphysical naturalism or materialism. Prof. Demos elaborated on the “pelvic freedom” bit by saying that going back to the time of Democritus and Lucretius those who advocated hedonism, especially of the sexual type, tended to hope for a material, amoral cosmos. Demos, himself, was a devoted Platonist who first taught me to take John’s interpretation of Christ as the [Platonic] Logos as probably true.
Later, I noted that Aldous Huxley, a devoted Darwinian, wrote that … the sense of spiritual freedom that comes from rejecting God is enormous….We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom….
Interestingly, virtually all of the gays or their supporters on this blog are avid Darwinians.
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Peter Leavit at #196:
SteveG, I distinguish between the empirical truth of evolution and Darwinism in that any trend of thought ending with an “ism” usually is a sign of some sort of fevered ideology. One doesn’t hear of Newtonism, Einsteinism, or Bohrism. Darwin himself was far from being a Darwinist.
I’d like to know better what you mean by it before I say much, because it’s a very loosely used and imprecise in meaning. There is a philosophy called “Darwinism” which argues that Darwin’s biological ideas can also apply to societies. Then there is “Darwinism” used by Creationists as a perjorative, in an effort to suggest that evolution is a belief system or ideology.
And the term can be applied to evolutionary theory the science as well, but then it becomes very easily confused and ambiguous.
As to “pelvic Freedom” that was a toss off point that a Greek philosophy professor of mine at Harvard College back in the late fifties, by the name of Demos, made in a lecture regarding the tendency of Darwin’s followers to confuse the scientific truth of evolution with proof of metaphysical naturalism or materialism.
And again, it may be a fair distinction to make. But I think the term, as clever as it is, paints with a broad brush. Most scientists accept evolutionary theory because they judge the known facts to support it well, not because they secretly think it’s a crock but it gives them license to boff at will so they try to convince themselves.
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Sarah was ninety years old when she had a son.
Does God give children when we think He should? Of course not.
Because God told Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth does not mean that they had children, even for thousands of years. It was after Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden by GOD that they had children. Since sin had not entered the garden, and Eve not bearing children in whatever time frame that was, 2 years or 2,000 years makes no difference.
God has a plan, he always had a plan….even before the foundation of the world, that you and I and everyone else would be born. How can we understand the mind of God? we can’t!
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Psalms 90
So it is with verse four. “A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past” GOD doesn’t say how long Adam and Eve were in the garden, HE doesn’t even give us a clue. Yes they were to multiply, but does that mean within 2 years, 20, 100, 2,000? . . of course not. But we do KNOW what the Bible says regarding creation.
God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31
The verse above is explicit, it talks directly of evening and the morning were the sixth day”- since God had made light, there was a day with light, and a darkness called night. VERY CLEAR, when you think about literal days of creation, light and dark for days is literal!
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1
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SBG – 195
What post are you referring to? Why don’t you quote whatever it is you have a question of?
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SBG – 195
YOU POST…..”Does this also mean that anyone who sees that there are missing names in the genealogies and interprets that to mean that the time frame from one ancestor to the next is unsure – is not a Christian? So we all must believe in Bishop Ussher’s date of October 23rd, 4004 BC to be Christians?
SBG, what I have bolded makes no sense. You are mixing and matching. Whatever point you are trying to make, or stirring up the TOPIC?
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VICTORIA,
168 – “When anyone tries to tear down the Word of God, I question their belief in Jesus Christ.”
This was in reference to six days of creation or maybe I’m wrong.
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SBG – 201
This is what I wrote Post 165, I didn’t write post 168 as you reference above.
The entire post 165 below:
————————–
Post 165
I am beginning to wonder how many true Born Again Believers are posting on this thread, not to mention this blog.
There are RED FLAGS, and those who are truly Born Again know what they are.
—————————
In the above post I didn’t mention six days or creation-
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SBA it was post 168.
______________________
Post 168
Literal is just what a day means, be it a six day week in which we work, or one day in which we observe the Sabbath, its a day. We observe one day a week for Sabbath, and work six days.
God isn’t a God of confusion as some would like to make it.
The Word of God is either true, or it isn’t, you cannot take one Book like Genesis, and say it is “religious poetry” . . . you are left with Exodus. When anyone tries to tear down the Word of God, I question their belief in Jesus Christ.
What does the Bible say about those who claim to be Believers? Are we to judge those within, or those without?
_________________________
SBG, it was a general statement regarding those who want to tear down Scripture.
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VICTORIA,
You refer to Exodus and talk about literal days and then make the statement about tearing down the Word of God. So it would seem from your posts that you think someone who doesn’t believe in literal 24 hr days in creation is trying to tear down the Word. Am I missing something?
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So then Pauline, your position and Peter’s (whom I assume agrees with you) is to spiritualize the first few chapters of the Bible.
I can respect that position even though I don’t agree. In the same way, I respect many great Covenant theologians even though I do not agree with replacement theology.
Scripture is multidimensional. Just as the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, so too we wander through life and one day will enter the promised land. Strict literalism is shallow and ignores the great depth of scripture. But while it is good to see the spiritual illustration, it would be false to say that the Exodus account never happened.
The spiritual aspect of scriptures is its most powerful part, but to ignore the literal meaning is leave it ungrounded in physical reality. To cut out difficult passages is a slippery slope. How does one know when to quit?
According to your interpretation:
1. Rom 5:12-14 and 1 Cor 15:22 refer to spiritual death of some sort of proto man who represents humankind. Yet acc. to Gen 5:5 this proto man lived 930 years, had a wife and children and then died. How can a proto man have such a literal history?
The rest of the Bible is about one of his offspring who would would call himself ‘ben Adam’, i.e. the son of Adam. Unfortunately, this fact is lost in the translation which renders it ’son of man’. The Hebrew word for ‘human’ is ’son of Adam’ and it is used 193 times in scripture. Jesus used the phrase continually.
2. Jesus’ quoting of Genesis was in a spiritual sense. Marriage is certainly spiritual, but what of its physical reality?
3. Calling the genealogies incomplete is not the same as saying the people weren’t real.
The Bible is a spiritual book with a spiritual message, but it is also rooted and grounded in physical reality. To remove that reality trivializes it.
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SBG – 205
Exodus is talking about literal days.
As I recall, no one answered or commented on my posts regarding Exodus, if they did, I missed the posts.
I do question those who tear Scripture apart, especially when it involves more than one book of the Bible, as in Genesis and Exodus……actually one book being Genesis is enough. How clear the LORD was to Moses atop mount Sinai, when he handed Moses the two tablets. Can you imagine Moses not getting the words of the LORD right? Think about it!
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(Notice it is GOD speaking here to Moses. Then God goes on to say “for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 32:16-18
(Here again in verse 18 it is clear that the LORD is giving Moses the TABLETS upon mount Sinai, “written with the finger of GOD”)
How can we dismiss creation in six days in the book of Genesis and then not look at Exodus when Moses was atop mount Sinai? To do so, in light of the FACT that it was at this very time the LORD gave the two tablets to Moses, written by the “finger of GOD” and then say, that the “six days the LORD made heaven and earth” could have been a thousand years each, etc., etc., etc., NO, it clearly says “six days” then the LORD goes on to say “and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed” – - the LORD was clear, speaking to Moses.
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1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Exodus 20
Should this, one of the most RELEVANT parts of Scripture be taken as “religious poetry”, is there some reason why verse eleven (11) should be “religious poetry and the rest be taken LITERALLY?
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VICTORIA,
So back to my original point – would you say anyone who doesn’t believe in 6 24 hr days of creation is not a Christian?
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SBG – 209
I wouldn’t say they weren’t a Christian. However, they wouldn’t be teaching my children in Sunday School. I don’t trust anyone who considers Genesis to be nothing more than “religious poetry”- that in itself is not sound. The entire book of Genesis is very rich, consider Noah, Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, etc.
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SAB
What does one do with Exodus 20?… my post 208.
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P. Leavitt, and Victoria (if you’re willing to stretch a bit),
This is a nice, though brief, description of the Genesis account squared with scientific cosmology.
Regards,
SG
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Xion — So then Pauline, your position and Peter’s (whom I assume agrees with you) is to spiritualize the first few chapters of the Bible.
Roger — I can’t answer for either one of them but I want to point out a few things that may help their case.
First, let me cite her remark to Victoria from two days ago when she said,
I consider Genesis 1 to teach that God created everything, not a record of the process used.
Notice that she restricted her remarks to Genesis the first chapter, which is significant to the observations I want to share next. Also, notice that she defends the idea that God created everything, even affirming that Genesis 1 teaches it. She believes that God created the world, and she believes Genesis 1 teaches this. She disagrees with those who assert that Genesis 1 describes a process.
I want point out a few things for you and the others to consider, and pardon me if you already know this.
A. Some posit that the Bible was not originally written on parchment, rolled up like a scroll, but on tablets of clay, like thick pages of a book. At the top of each “page” one would find the “title” of the page describing the contents.
For instance, it has been pointed out that Moses gives the account of creation twice: once in chapter one and again in chapter two. The two accounts basically teach the same thing, that God created everything. The two accounts vary in scope and emphasis but both are true and neither one contradicts the other.
If this is true, the opening line of Genesis would not be the beginning line of the body of the text, but the title of that page. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”, would be the title. The first line of the body of text would read, “The earth was formless and void.”
The second “page” (clay tablet) would have the title (which is Genesis 2:4 in our Bibles) “This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.” That would be written at the top of the page. And the first line of the body of text would read, “Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.” The phrase “this is the account of” indicates to the reader that what follows is an account of things and as we read we discover that Moses has told the same story again, but from a new angle. Beginning in chapter two we notice that Genesis has become a little more anthropocentric.
In addition, Genesis begins to adopt a narrative structure, which continues to the end of the book. But what about Genesis 1? Granted, Genesis one shares similar characteristics with the narrative form as we imagine God in his workshop making light and earth and sky, etc. However, taking a closer look, I believe we might find elements of poetry.
Now, I have been told that Genesis one is not Hebrew poetry. However, putting aside the scholastic definitions of poetry for the moment, I observe the first chapter of Genesis is both rhythmic and repetitive. In addition to that, the structure of it does not fit with a “scientific” organizational principle. (And I beleive this was Pauline’s point.)
For starters, we notice that Moses has God creating domains in days two and three, and populating those domains in days four, five and six. Many have noticed and rightly pointed out that Moses has God creating light, and the distinction between darkness and light before he creates the luminaries: sun, moon, and stars. This fact helps Pauline’s case that Genesis one does not read like an unfolding process. One would expect the process to begin with the creation of the luminaries, which would in-turn bath the universe in light. If Moses was describing the PROCESS of creation, he has the cart before the horse.
Now, when she says that Genesis 1 does not describe a process, she is NOT, at the same time, suggesting that God didn’t create light or the luminaries. He did. Her only disagreement with the traditional view centers on the first chapter’s organizing principle. Rather than describing the chronological, physical process of creation, Moses has organized his account of creation differently in order to make a more profound point than to merely suggest that God is the author of it, which is obvious but not the only point to make about it.
I could continue to exegete Genesis the first chapter if need be, but I think I made my point already and this post is getting long.
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Serious George – 212
This may surprise you, but what does this have to do with Genesis and Exodus?
Many can’t bear to understand the Scriptures, . . . they aren’t able to cope with anything other than their ‘half whacked ideas’ which have no bearing on Scripture, never mind science, which they never understood from the beginning.
Are you making a point OR making an argument?
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SG 212: Interesting synopsis. Thanks for the link.
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SG: Ditto – good stuff.
Roger: Interesting as well. And how does a literal Adam fit into that paradigm?
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Roger at #213:
The two accounts vary in scope and emphasis but both are true and neither one contradicts the other.
and
For starters, we notice that Moses has God creating domains in days two and three, and populating those domains in days four, five and six. Many have noticed and rightly pointed out that Moses has God creating light, and the distinction between darkness and light before he creates the luminaries: sun, moon, and stars. This fact helps Pauline’s case that Genesis one does not read like an unfolding process. One would expect the process to begin with the creation of the luminaries, which would in-turn bath the universe in light. If Moses was describing the PROCESS of creation, he has the cart before the horse.
Interesting.
It raises a question though … if Genesis 1 is not an attempt to describe the sequence of creation, then what is the significance of dividing it into a succession of days?
Genesis 1 and 2 do at least appear to conflict if the Genesis 1 sequence is intended to read as a sequence. In Gen 1, God creates plants on Day 3 and man on Day 6. In Gen 2, God creates man before the plants had come.
So if Gen 1 is read not as a sequence but as a simple statement that God created domains and also populated the domains, why the “days?”
Roger, as another point to consider, some have argued that the light of Gen. 1:2 could refer to the explosion of energy at the time of the Big Bang, while the matter of the universe didn’t coalesce into stars for a long time.
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Correction: The light of Gen. 1:3, not 1:2.
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VICTORIA,
Just wanted to make sure that we are being careful about judging someone’s salvation based on their view of Genesis 1. I always have in the back of my head the admonition by God in Job 38 – Were you there when I laid the foundation of the earth? So I’m willing to say I’m not sure what God meant by a day in Genesis and I’m not afraid of that effecting my view of the rest of God’s Word. And I wouldn’t be critical of anyone for believing one way or the other about something that is not essential for salvation. If they reject that God exists, that He created plants and animals according to their kind and that He created us different from the animals, then we have a problem.
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Rethinking my 219 post, even God creating according to their kind can have differing interpretations and is not really essential to salvation. I look at the animals and see the incredible designing hand of God and think that’s awesome! But someone else might say its cool how God designed the earth and guided it in order to bring forth life with so much variety. The key is that we are different from the animals in ways that evolution and science can’t explain. Sorry for the rambling thoughts. Don’t worry Victoria, your kids are safe from my teaching in Sunday school.
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SERIOUS GEORGE,
I liked your link. I’ve read “The Science of God” and found it to be quite interesting and explains the problem of star light velocity and six days of creation.
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SBG
I have answered your questions. Are you going to answer mine in post 207 and 208?
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VICTORIA,
My answer to Exodus 20 would be that God is comparing His six days of creation (days from God’s perspective) to man’s six days of work. As I said to SG, I read “The Science of God” and found a compelling scientific explanation that is in harmony with Genesis. Remember that Genesis 1-2:4 could have been written directly by God on a clay tablet like the 10 commandments so the creation account is from His perspective. I’m not dogmatic about this because there are other explanations. I struggle with the light from distant stars and have been trying to find an acceptable explanation – other than God created the light already in transit. He is capable of doing that but it seems unreasonable to me. Of course this is just my humble opinion and enjoy talking to others and reading about how they deal with the issue in case I might learn something from them. As I hit Post, I’m putting my hands over my head to reduce the pain from getting whacked by Bible verses.
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SBG
How much clearer can the finger of GOD be?
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(Notice it is GOD speaking here to Moses. Then God goes on to say “for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 32:16-18
(Here again in verse 18 it is clear that the LORD is giving Moses the TABLETS upon mount Sinai, “written with the finger of GOD”)
We as little ‘finite’ beings, trying to figure out the majesty, the power of GOD Almighty. Man believes that if he can’t understand something from GOD, then perhaps it isn’t true, maybe some finite scientist can enlighten him.
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While God was giving Moses the finger, he could have perhaps explained why God needs to “rest.”
Man believes that if he can’t understand something from GOD, then perhaps it isn’t true, maybe some finite scientist can enlighten him.
Which is a much better approach than deciding that if Scripture and reality conflict, it’s reality that’s wrong.
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STEVEG – 225
YOUR REMARK:
You expect respect, for that SLY remark?
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SBG 223: White holes and relativity?
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SBG,
Thanks for the pointer to Schroeder’s book. I’ll put it on my list.
Regards,
SG
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VICTORIA,
“Man believes that if he can’t understand something from GOD, then perhaps it isn’t true, maybe some finite scientist can enlighten him.”
Thanks, that didn’t hurt too much. You know you are arguing with an ordained pastor not an atheist? You will probably duck away from the above statement as being a general statement but it was prompted by my response. I never said what was written isn’t true and I believe pretty strongly that Gen 1-2:4 was originally written by the finger of God also. And you are right – some finite scientist can enlighten me just as finite pastor friends enlighten me and finite seminary professors too. I just have to remain aware of the presuppositions and agendas that are usually present.
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SBG
You have mentioned many times you are an ordained pastor, that doesn’t mean I agree with you, or that I have studied less of the Bible than you have, nor does it trump TRUTH. I have never laid out my credentials on this blog.
As far as your remark about your not being an “atheist” that’s plain silly. I’m not going to try and make you feel better for making such a ridiculous remark.
If you or anyone can take Exodus 20, lift out verse 11 as though it isn’t “LITERAL” then why not re-arrange the “Ten Commandments” as they can be thought of as not being EXACTLY as written in Exodus?
Tell me what verses are not literal in Exodus 20? GOD had a lot to say in that chapter.
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SERIOUS GEORGE,
It’s the cosmology of “The Science of God” that is interesting to me. He reconciles the red shift of distant star light with six days of creation. An interesting attempt to harmonize science and Genesis. He points out that even one-celled life can reproduce by mitosis and questions how that reproductive system could have evolved over time – without an existing system then one generation wouldn’t survive to try again. But I don’t agree with everything in the book and the author is a Jewish physicist so his theological discussion has a Jewish flavor to it. I can feel the heat rising in VICTORIA already – don’t worry, this book is not in your church library.
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SBG – 231
You seem to take delight in making snide remarks, which are uncalled for, did they teach you this in seminary, or did you skip seminary? All ordained ministers have not attended seminary.
As far as Jewish goes, I have many, many friends who are Jewish, in medicine, science, etc. You have no idea what books are in my library or that of my Church you PRESUME, what you have no knowledge of.
Strange that you can add that comment to your post to someone else and mention my name…… as you ’say’ you are a pastor, but your demeanor doesn’t match.
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Victoria at #226: I don’t expect respect from you for anything I might say, but I will admit my joke was not in the best of taste. No offense was meant, but I understand it probably does offend some here, so I apologize.
However, the point I made in that post remains valid. The verse you cite says God “rested, and was refreshed.”
Now if it just said “rested,” we could take that to just mean stopped. We can speak of a car rolling to a stop and resting in the parking space, and we just mean its motion has ended.
But it specifically says God was “refreshed” by rest. Do you take this as literal also, as you are insisting the six days should be? If so, then why does God need to rest in order to be refreshed?
If not, if you believe that particular point to be non-literal, then why insist the six days must literally be six 24-hour days?
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Steveg – 233
You hold others ACCOUNTABLE to the very book (Bible) you deny. Why would you quote it and hold Believers accountable, thats nonsense!
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Believers believe it. Why shouldn’t I expect believers to adhere to what they say they believe?
I notice you don’t actually address the question I raised. Can you?
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VICTORIA,
I apologize that I offended you. The comment was not about what you read but what is mostly likely not in your church library. Your questioning of my credentials as a pastor is also offensive since I spent 7 yrs in seminary part time while working full time as an engineer and trying to raise a family at the same time. A lot of personal sacrifice involved in attempting to serve our Lord and answer God’s call. Maybe a softer approach from both of us is warranted.
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SBG – 236
I have ignored some of your remarks, but this one was ONE TO MANY. I wasn’t impressed, nor was it warranted.
You may have gone to seminary for seven years . . . However, I have known a great many pastors, and they don’t speak the way you write. Your sacrifice in going to school has nothing to do with, and certainly isn’t an excuse to ’smart off’-
Can you answer post 230? I asked this question several times in other posts, yet you don’t answer, your “atheist” remark sidestepped the question. I have answered your questions, so it would seem you could answer this one.
I accept your apology, thank you.
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Steveg
I’m through discussing the Word of God with you, as you don’t believe it. You use this as a way to make ’sport’ of the Bible, and its disgusting.
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SteveG at #181: “OK, Dog, I’m having a slow day so what the heck, I’ll engage your arguments from #151.”
ASALTYDOG: Hello Steve, welcome back! Hope you’ll have a slow week! The discussion is getting long, but very interesting, so as you can see I have split it in sections with some context for convenience. My newest comments are always preceded by ASALTYDOG in capital letters. Have fun!
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ASaltyDog: “I do not believe there are any such things as a natural laws as you apparently intend them. I do believe that “anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace” is ultimately caused by God’s deliberate action. I also believe that God keeps His word. This is what makes science possible.”
SteveG: “OK, how about this then: Things normally happen in repeatable, predictable ways. If you drop an object, it falls. If you drop an egg into boiling water and leave it there a few minutes, its liquid contents become solid. If you then put the boiling water into a container and keep it a temperature of less than 32 degrees Farenheit for a period of time, the water becomes solid. I call it natural law. You call it the deliberate action of God. Other than the term used, is there a practical difference?”
ASALTYDOG: You bet. How do you account for such uniformity of nature? Have you tested all the eggs of the world? How do you know that tomorrow the eggs will continue to become solid?
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ASaltyDog: “You admitted that of course if I bring God into this debate, then homologies can’t be said to be necessary proof of common descent. But you complained that then God can be seen *everywhere*. I answered that this precisely is the position you want to attack. So quit complaining about what your opponents actually believe, quit misrepresenting them, and deal with their arguments.”
SteveG: “Take your own advice. That is not the position I am talking about at all. Someone who believes the universe has no operating principles at all, just the individual and deliberate actions of God who just happens to prefer to make the same decisions every time except those few times when makes an exception, are beyond the reach of logic and science.”
ASALTYDOG: On the contrary, Steve: that is the only possible foundation for science. It is your position that makes science impossible. And you still can’t use homologies as evidence of common descent.
___
SteveG: “If the universe does not operate under predictable rules, then there is no way we can ever really know anything about it.”
ASALTYDOG: That’s exactly your problem. How do you know that the universe operates under predictable rules? Because if you can’t know that, as you admit, there is no way you can have science. Given your world view, then, how do you account for the predictability of nature?
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SteveG: “God COULD have created you yesterday and also created a brainful of false memories for you to give you the illusion that you’ve lived for however many years you’ve been around. No way to prove that didn’t happen, but also absolutely no reason to think it did.”
ASALTYDOG: If God did what you suggest I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, therefore God did not create me yesterday. No way to prove it? There, I proved it. And again, nobody believes in the God you envision. The God of the Bible is not a covenant-breaking idol, so quit building strawgods.
___
SteveG: “This is not the position I’m discussing because there is simply no point in debating a person who believes that way. No matter how much evidence I could present to you, you would shrug off with “God did it that way,” and what can I say to that? Nothing, really. So why bother?”
ASALTYDOG: This is vintage whining-SteveG at his best. “I can debate anybody, really, and I can demonstrate evolution to anybody, except to someone who doesn’t believe it. I’m really good at proving Genesis wrong, except if I meet someone who believes it. Why can’t you Christians pretend there’s no God for a minute?” Hilarious.
___
SteveG: “The position I DO seek to engage — it’s a friendly discussion, not a war, so I will decline to use your hostile verb — is that the scientific evidence supports Biblical Creationism. People who are taking that position are rooted in the real-world understanding that when things happen they have effects, and the effects can be analyzed to deduce the cause. They may be mistaken, but they are approaching the question with the same grounding principles that most of us do, so there is common ground to discuss.”
ASALTYDOG: Rest assured that I belong precisely to the group of people who believe that the scientific evidence supports Biblical Creationism. Rest assured that you are really “engaging” my position. And for someone who compared me to a drug addict, your complaining now that my word “attack” was hostile and unfriendly makes you sound like you are stuck exactly in the middle between hysteria and hypocrisy.
___
SteveG: “How many of your fellow Christians have come to your aid, Dog, to say yes, we do believe there are no natural laws? Zero, by my count. Are you sure you are such a traditional Christian?”
ASALTYDOG: Rest assured I am in very good company. To my aid? For what? For replying to you? By the way I think they are doing such a fine job that they don’t need me to come to their aid either.
___
SteveG: “Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)”
ASaltyDog: “I have no idea from what pocket you have drawn these natural laws, but of course it must be a trick. I deny your concept of natural laws. I do believe that as a rule God faithfully does things in predictable ways. On what grounds do you believe there are such things as natural laws?”
SteveG: “On the grounds that when I drop my keys in the parking lot, they never hang in midair. They always fall. But as I said at the top, perhaps we’re talking about the same thing using different vocabularies.”
ASALTYDOG: That’s not the same thing as showing that there are natural laws. You have not seen any natural law walking loose in your parking lot, trust me. You have only seen some keys dropping a few times. Will the keys fall the next time you drop them?
___
ASaltyDog: “Sorry, no neutral nor common ground here either. I don’t believe there are any natural laws governing tree growth. I do believe God makes trees grow. How do you know there are natural laws governing tree growth?”
SteveG: “I was mistaken, you’re right …. we do have no common ground. Unless you are playing some elaborate practical joke, which I really hope is the case.”
ASALTYDOG: Knock, knock. Anybody home? I ask questions, I get no answers.
___
ASaltyDog: “The true God is a covenant-keeping God, who promises continuity and uniformity in nature, and whose Word is sure and trustable.”
SteveG: “Which would imply that God has established laws by which the Creation operates, except in those cases where He chooses to suspend the normal order of things and do something different. So you do believe in natural laws, you just refuse to call them by that name? You continue to be a conundrum.”
ASALTYDOG: No. That’s still the lie of deism. God is not contemplating from a distance how an engine (or a law) works. There are no laws of nature. There’s nothing impersonal in how nature works. Christ makes it rain. He makes trees grow. He makes the water boil. He keeps the moon rotating around the earth. He commands the wind and it obeys him. He makes your keys drop.
___
NOTE by ASALTYDOG: Here, curiously enough, there was a section in my original post #151 which you quite uncharacteristically choose not to quote, for some reason. And I must add that, most definitely, the reason you skipped this is NOT necessarily that you find the section embarrassing when compared to things you’ll say later on in this post. END OF NOTE
SteveG: “Most of the time, when we know that A causes B and B leads to C, if we see C, we feel confident in assuming A and B have happened.”
ASaltyDog: “That, my friend, I repeat, in case you maybe see the light, is a logical fallacy.”
SteveG: “Huh? How? It’s a logical fallacy to assume the workings of a known cause when we see the effect that the known cause causes? So let me get this straight . . . I don’t follow your reasoning here at all.”
ASaltyDog: “No hope you’ll ever get this (or concede this) any time soon, evidently. But yes, it is a blatant, obvious, really bad logical fallacy, that is absolutely devastating to your argument here.”
___
SteveG: “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.”
ASaltyDog: “If so, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent?”
SteveG: “Common descent is the linchpin of evolutionary theory. Ultimately, all life comes through it. But in any single example where two organisms have similar adaptive measures, there may or may not be a direct line of descent between them.”
ASaltyDog: “Wow Steve, you hang yourself and you don’t even notice it. Please don’t tell me you don’t see that you are left with no argument for evolution based on homology?”
SteveG: “I think it’s more that you didn’t understand me. Let’s try again. Ultimately, every life form is explained by common descent. The issue with convergent evolution becomes the question of just how far back you have to go to find the common ancestor between any two species. For similar creatures, say cats and dogs, it’s not as far back as for dogs and insects. There may be lineages where two lines develop similar adaptive features that don’t go all the way back to the common ancestor. Insects developed flight long before there were birds. Go back far enough and birds and insects have a common ancestor — common descent — but it is too far back to account for the similar adaptation — convergent. Of course, I suppose it’s easier to just say God done it, and leave it at that.”
ASALTYDOG: I understand perfectly well what you are saying. I also understand perfectly well when my questions aren’t answered. You are left with no argument for evolution based on homology. And so you suddenly point at the sky behind my back and say, “Wow, watch that bird over there!” I am not so easily distracted, Steve.
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SteveG: “Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof.”
ASaltyDog: “This is not how you speak when not challenged in this way. Or aren’t you the same guy who wrote, “Science DOES contradict [biblical revelation], and it HAS been proven false.” So can you or can you not prove common descent?”
SteveG: “Here you conflate two very different things. Let’s imagine that over the next ten years a series of discoveries prove that Darwin was absolutely wrong and evolution has been a red herring all this time. That would still not prove that Biblical Creationism is true. This is not an A or B choice, where if you prove one false the other must be true. You would still need positive evidence in favor of Creationism (or at least you would in order to show people skeptical of that view objective reasons why they should consider it.) Those of us who operate it the real world of natural law (or a God who operates consistently if you prefer) understand that the evidence does not support the idea of all life forms appearing at the same time, or within days of each other. There is no evidence of a global flood or a single global extinction. Human beings did not all speak the same language until a sudden catastrophic scattering and gave them all different ones. (And people having different languages doesn’t prevent them from communicating as the omniscient God mistakenly believed it would in the Tower of Babel story.) Even if we had no idea what did happen, even if our ideas about evolution turned out to be wrong, you would still not have evidence that Creation is the correct alternative. Before you go around accusing people of misrepresenting others’ views, you should look in the mirror. Thanks to the predictable laws of nature, I am sure you’ll see your own reflection.”
ASALTYDOG: How does not-proving common descent prove the Bible wrong? If not common descent, what proved the Bible wrong? You prove to me now that human beings did not all speak the same language. You prove to me now the global flood did not occur. You are the one making the assertion here, not I. “Biblical revelation has been proved false.” “Science does contradict biblical revelation.” And on top of that, how can you be sure I’ll see my own reflection on the mirror?
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ASaltyDog: “If you can [prove common descent], isn’t that unscientific? And if you cannot, what’s wrong with being a creationist?”
SteveG: “You are free to believe whatever you want to.”
ASALTYDOG: In other words you concede here that you can’t prove common descent. But you didn’t come to this forum to announce that you can’t prove common descent, that homologies aren’t evidence for common descent, and that creationists are free to believe whatever they want. No, you came to this forum to announce that “creationists really aren’t interested in the truth” and “refuse to acknowledge the observed facts of the real world” since “they deny a well-supported scientific theory”, and believe instead a view which “science DOES contradict”, which actually “contradicts what we see with our own eyes”, which therefore “HAS been proven false”, and which “should not be acceptable to anyone”, because “science trumps ancient myth, yes”, which means that “AIG and the ICR are rightly maligned” because “they spread misinformation and confusion about what the facts are”, and indeed “they represent about as blatant a case of ‘lying for Jesus’ as there is”, which in turns upsets you because “it is frustrating trying to talk about science and facts with people who avowedly are unwilling to even consider the possibility that they might be mistaken” (all emphasis yours).
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SteveG: “People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.”
ASaltyDog: “Cheap shot. Watch this: “People who prefer to believe in evolution probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 6000 years, and probably not even then.”
SteveG: “what’s cheap about it? Your converse is also true.”
ASALTYDOG: My point exactly. Cheap shot.
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ASaltyDog: “Why don’t you start with a Creator?”
SteveG: “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.”
ASaltyDog: “Except if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”?”
SteveG: “Nope. And you are just assuming that I do. You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.” ”
ASaltyDog: “Yeah, right. When have you seen natural laws the last time?”
SteveG: “Just now. I press keys on my keyboard and they cause the desired letters and words to appear on my screen. They do this because of known principles about physics and electronics, not because God is making the words appear.”
ASALTYDOG: Prove it. Rest assured you haven’t seen — ever — any natural law. You have seen only letters appear on your screen. And the formulas and diagrams you have in mind may describe (tentatively) how things work, not the reason. Nor can the formulas and diagrams tell you in advance what will happen the next time you press a key. So you don’t start with just what you can observe. So you do start with unproved assumptions, and interpret the facts accordingly. So you do start with the theory of evolution. So why don’t you start with a Creator?
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SteveG: “Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study.”
ASaltyDog: “Wow. And tell me, how does science get to know what the natural laws are in order to get the whole thing started?”
SteveG: “Observation. Measurement. Testing. Repeating. If something happens the same way every time when the same conditions apply, you have found a natural law.”
ASALTYDOG: I have? In your scenario, at what point do you quit repeating the test and call it a law? How do you know that testing one more time wouldn’t give a different result? How can you ever reach certainty that your keys will always fall to the ground if dropped? To say that they always fell in the past does not prove that they will always continue to fall. So in short how does “law” in your vocabulary differ from “fallible, unsubstantiated, unjustified, completely irrational generalization”? And since this must be what you mean by “law”, how does science, being based as you say on this completely irrational foundation, be trusted to tell us anything true? Why do you cherish a world view that destroys science? Christianity instead provides all the prerequisites and preconditions for making science possible. Judging from your writings, I thought you love science. So why aren’t you a Christian?
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SteveG: “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.”
ASaltyDog: “Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.”
SteveG: “If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet. Where is the fallacy?”
ASaltyDog: “Steve, you need to study basic concepts in logic, fast.”
NOTE by ASALTYDOG: At this point I can’t help noticing that although you have faithfully and exhaustively quoted me throughout, you again left out the rest of this particular paragraph of mine, which for the record ended with the following words: “Google for ‘affirming the consequent’. Then you’ll find you didn’t need to learn it — you are already a master of it.” Of course, this quiet but careful work of editing is most definitely NOT necessarily related to the fact that the next thing you want to do here is to make sure everybody understands that of course you have always been very familiar, possibly since you were in the womb, with the logical fallacy know as ‘affirming the consequent’. END OF THE NOTE.
SteveG: “Here you actually do have somewhat of a point. I am familiar with the error of affirming the consequent and your if-then series illustrates it; however, the scientific method is not guilty of it. And importantly, neither is my example. If I had said “When it rains, the ground gets wet. If the ground is wet, it must have rained,” THAT would be the logic error. I didn’t say that, however. My B statement was, “If the ground is wet, something made it wet.” Maybe rain. Maybe, as you noted earlier, melting snow. Maybe just dew. Maybe the fire department did come open all the hydrants during the night. But something caused the ground to be wet. As an illustration of natural law, it means the most probable cause can often be deduced. If it is the middle of summer in the tropics, no snow around, and you heard the rain falling overnight, you can be confident assuming the ground is wet because it rained. If there were clear skies all night, then the wetness is likely just a morning dew. So yes, I did overlook your description of the error, but I did not actually commit the error. So, score one-half point for you. Be proud.”
ASALTYDOG: For a moment here the whole world was holding its breath. Is the scientific method guilty of affirming the consequent? Fortunately then SteveG took the microphone and reassured everybody. No, it isn’t, he smiled. Whew! Thanks Steve! No need to bore us with an explanation of why it isn’t, of course. We just trust your word. That you were “familiar with the error of affirming the consequent” was not something you needed to point out, as I am sure most people here have noticed it a long time ago. And finally, the wet street example is MY example, not yours. Call me a drug addict any time you want, but don’t step on my blue suede shoes, and don’t start putting my stuff into your pockets. I won’t even accept “half-points” as payment for something that I don’t want to sell. What you said about the wet street is not your example, but a misrepresentation of my example. Which is also something that should drive me mad.
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SteveG: “We find fossilized creatures at different layers, and we find them consistently distributed that way. That’s evidence that they lived at different times, separated by millions of years.”
ASaltyDog: “This is one great example of your skill, kindof. If animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years, we would find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Now we DO find them fossilized and consistently distributed at different layers. Therefore these animals lived at different times, separated by millions of years. This may be the way evolutionists like to fool themselves into thinking they are whipping biblical creationism big time, but they are only exposing to the world their logical illiteracy.”
SteveG: “Even the most ardent evolutionary theorist would agree this is an inference. It is the most likely inference. It is supported by a host of other evidence beyond the geological distribution. But yes, if God wanted to distribute the fossils through the geological strata in a way that just makes it look like evolution is the best explanation — to trick us I guess so we won’t get saved and make heaven overcrowded — then nobody can prove that’s not what happened. So please, do go on believing in Creationism, your best evidence being “well nobody can prove it didn’t happen that way.”
ASALTYDOG: Sorry, but that is not the most likely inference. That may be the most likely inference if the theory of evolution is correct. If biblical creationism is correct, that is by no means the most likely inference. First you choose a world view, and then on the host of assumptions such a preference entails you decide which inferences are most likely. Your gathering a “host of other inference” does not impress me in the least since it is based on the assumption that the theory of evolution is true. If you think facts speak for themselves, and that it is possible to objectively gather, in the abstract, the most likely inferences, period, on such a topic as the prehistory of the world, which is not open to direct investigation, you have the epistemological sophistication of a wet sock. Finally, you certainly haven’t even come close to “proving it didn’t happen that way” (and your original boastful claim, which you were forced to eat, was that it is a fact that science has proved the Bible wrong). But please don’t come and tell me what my claims are. My claim is not that the evidence for believing in the Bible is simply negative (you can’t prove it wrong), although it is also that. I already told you that everything is evidence of the truth of the Bible.
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SteveG: “Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time.”
ASaltyDog: “Easy: the zoological, historical, and soteriological implications of the biblical revelation. In short, if dinosaurs and dogs didn’t live at the same time, I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, so therefore dinosaurs and dogs must have lived at the same time.”
SteveG: “Ha! You accuse me of a logic error and then offer as your evidence a theological claim that is in no way objectively observable. Quite rich. This is a rocking good joke.”
ASALTYDOG: You did objectively observe it, though, didn’t you? You can even dig deeper into it. You got what you asked for. What’s funny about it? Do you mean “drawing inferences” is okay for evolutionists but should be illegal for Christians?
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ASaltyDog: “Now my turn. Find me one shred of evidence that penguins and giraffes share the same habitat.”
SteveG: “Find me anyone who claims they do. Why should I try to provide evidence for claim no one makes?”
ASALTYDOG: I see. Find me then someone who claims that dinosaurs and dogs shared the same habitat. Checkmate.
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SaltyDog … my you are an interesting person.
I will go through this point by point as my time allows … probably tonight but maybe not until tomorrow … but I will make two quick points now.
First, I didn’t call you a drug addict. I asked whether you had, earlier in your life, used a lot of hallucigenic drugs. I was (and still am) rather perplexed at the denial of natural laws (although I will address your specific questions when I am able to put my longer response together.)
That said, it was a quip. A joke. Not a serious allegation. If you and I are to have any meaningful dialogue, you should know that my sense of humor leans toward the sarcastic. Yours seems to as well, so I think you understand what I’m saying.
I will try to refrain from making such jokes in the future, but you should understand to not take them seriously.
Secondly, a quick note on your final thought in the post above:
SteveG: “Find me anyone who claims they do. Why should I try to provide evidence for claim no one makes?”
ASALTYDOG: I see. Find me then someone who claims that dinosaurs and dogs shared the same habitat. Checkmate.
I didn’t say the same habitat, I said at the same time.
This is one of the many ways in which the observed facts do not support Biblical Creationism. See, if God created all the life on Earth over the span of a few days, then all these plants and animals lived at the same time. Some of them have obviously gone extinct in the time since, but they all started at the same time.
If it had happened that way, when we go looking for fossils buried in the Earth, we’d find them scattered all over with no particular order. We’d find the bones of dogs and the bones of dinosaurs at random depths. We’d find ostriches buried underneath mammoths.
Because all the species were created at once, there would be no way, and really no need, to try to figure out which ones lived at what points in the earth’s past because there would be no patterns. We might figure out that one species lived in this part of the world and another species lived on the other side of the world, but that would be all. We wouldn’t see any reason to think that one species lived and died long before another species even existed.
But that’s not the way it is. What we’ve discovered instead is that under the Earth’s surface are distinct layers (called strata) and we find the remains of species within certain strata and not within others. The layer that contains dinosaurs does not contain cats. The layer where we see woolly mammoths and primates doesn’t contain trilobites.
And interestingly, we never find fossils of modern animals at all. Why do you imagine that might be? If T-Rexes and terriers lived at the same time, we should find fossils of both. But we don’t find fossilized terriers.
Mull that over and I’ll come back when I can to tackle the rest.
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Victoria at #238: I’m through discussing the Word of God with you, as you don’t believe it. You use this as a way to make ’sport’ of the Bible, and its disgusting.
I don’t make sport of the Bible at all. I actually take it pretty seriously, just not as the inerrant word of God.
I do, however, come to debate forums like this one for the purpose of challenging people to consider and defend their positions, and also to be motivated to consider and challenge my own.
One of your positions is that every word in the Bible comes from God and is literal and inerrant. The passage at issue here, which you brought into the discussion, says God needed to rest in order to be refreshed.
I am asking whether you believe in a God who gets tired and needs to rest, or if you believe that particular phrase is somehow and exception to your normal literal reading.
I realize this may not an easy question for you to answer. Nevertheless, it is a question that arises naturally from what you say you believe and it’s perfectly fair for me to ask you to answer it. This forum is for people to mix it up and debate, not for Christians only to gather in devotional study.
I know when somebody is ducking a question. They do it by ignoring it, or by responding with something long and complex that has a lot of words but never gets around to addressing the question … or by impugning the questioner’s character and motives. You’ve chosen the third option, and that’s fine. I’m an adult and I can take it.
But it still remains that you are refusing to answer a legitimate question, so I am asking again.
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VICTORIA,
So no apology from you and a continued attack on my ability as a pastor and a general statement about the way I write.
I answered your question and then you repeated it as if I didn’t answer it. See posts 219,220 & 223 for my answer. As I said at the outset, be careful how you judge someone’s faith in Christ based on 24 hr days in creation.
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What do you want me to apologize for SBG? I have to say once again, I have never heard a pastor talk or write about another Believer the way you have here.
If I overheard you talk about me (if I were one of your congregation) or write about me, with the comment you made, I would CALL YOU ON IT, just as I did on this thread. You may not call that gossip, but I DO, it’s SMIRKY, and you apologized, and I accepted, now you want me to apologize for asking you about your being a pastor from a Seminary? Are you this touchy about your education? After all, you are the one who brought up the other remark Post 229 “You know you are arguing with an ordained pastor not an atheist?”
What you were doing was pure gossip, be it a blog, or elsewhere. I don’t expect a lot from others here, but I do expect more from those who profess to be pastors.
If those are your answers in posts 2l9, 220, and 223….. I can’t make you answer the direct question, so I won’t ask again. Last sentence post 230-
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VICTORIA,
So you claim things about me that aren’t true but since it is written directly to me that isn’t gossip – never mind the many on-lookers. You responded to my sincere attempt to answer your question with “Man believes that if he can’t understand something from GOD, THEN PERHAPS IT ISN’T TRUE, maybe some finite scientist can enlighten him.” I believe that the Word of God is true so this is spreading gossip about me no matter how you hide behind it being a general statement. Also claiming that I was trying to sidestep a question, which isn’t true, I think would fit this definition of gossip.
My sarcastic reactions were partly in response to your question – or did you skip seminary? By using the word “skip”, you had a hint of judgment rather than sincere curiosity. I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your intent.
You ask which verses in Ex 20 are not literal. I sincerely answered about my opinion of the six days and would say they were literally six days from God’s perspective but also as I stated before I’m not dogmatic about it. So I would say none of them are not literal. Be mindful of Ex 20:16 – no false testimony – based on my statements above. I apologized for my error and have asked for your apology in return.
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SBG
When I say something to YOU, it is not gossip my friend, it is a direct communication. Gossip is talking about another person TO someone else. Have I done that to you?
As I said before, I have never known another pastor who talks or writes as you do, and I have known some of the best!
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SBG –
SBG, what other “perspective” is there than GOD’S?
So you finally answer the question…… ALL the verses in Exodus 20 are literal!
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Including the one where God gets tired and needs rest to be refreshed!
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SteveG at #240: “First, I didn’t call you a drug addict. I asked whether you had, earlier in your life, used a lot of hallucigenic drugs. I was (and still am) rather perplexed at the denial of natural laws (although I will address your specific questions when I am able to put my longer response together.) That said, it was a quip. A joke. Not a serious allegation. If you and I are to have any meaningful dialogue, you should know that my sense of humor leans toward the sarcastic. Yours seems to as well, so I think you understand what I’m saying. I will try to refrain from making such jokes in the future, but you should understand to not take them seriously.”
ASALTYDOG: Steve, of course I know you didn’t *technically* call me a drug addict. And of course I know you meant it as a joke, although it does border on bad manners and personal defamation. And I thought it would be a good counterjoke from my side to keep on mentioning it. The reason is that I find it rather amusing that my denial of deism surprises you to the point that you used that expression — so my occasional mentioning it serves to place a sarcastic stress on your utter confusion and bewilderment. The simple fact that my denial surprises or perplexes you at all is amusing. When you to ask me such questions as, say, whether I’m sure my view is really as traditional as I think, that reveals a lot about you. Deism has been a notorious Christian heresy for centuries. It is at odds with the Bible. Many modern Christians may have unwittingly and carelessly toyed with deism in recent decades, but that’s not my fault. So this is how I bent your joke to fire back to you. Having said that, I know you are referring now to this paragraph: “And for someone who compared me to a drug addict, your complaining now that my word “attack” was hostile and unfriendly makes you sound like you are stuck exactly in the middle between hysteria and hypocrisy.” Well, you didn’t joke when you objected to my use of the word “attack”, and I did make fun of your pompous seriousness at that point. We are certainly engaging each other’s positions, but only a pompous fool would deny that attacking is also a good description. Black and white attack each other all the time in chess, and no real personal hostility between the two players needs to be inferred from that word. If I am supposed to understand that your asking me if I have been on drugs is a joke, I beg your pardon, the least I can say in reply is that you are then supposed to understand that my calling your writings an “attack” is a totally legitimate figure of speech. So please sit down and take it easy.
SteveG: “Secondly, a quick note on your final thought in the post above: SteveG: “Find me anyone who claims they do. Why should I try to provide evidence for claim no one makes?” ASALTYDOG: “I see. Find me then someone who claims that dinosaurs and dogs shared the same habitat. Checkmate.” SteveG: “I didn’t say the same habitat, I said at the same time.”
ASALTYDOG: You don’t get it. I understand your question, but you don’t understand my answer. Read again those paragraphs. Watch again the chessboard. To take an extreme example, giraffes and penguins live now at the same time, but would you expect to find their fossils close to each other four thousand years from now? Why not? Of course I could make less spectacular examples involving animals living far closer to each other but never actually mingling together due to their different habits, habitats, and ecological niches. Now in order for your argument to work against creationism you need to make several crucial, unprovable assumptions. One of these assumptions is that I or the Bible should make the claim that, on the night God unleashed the Flood, dinosaurs and dogs, or mammoths and ostriches, or primates and trilobites, or T-Rexes and terriers, shared the same habitat and used to hang around at the same bar after work. And that when the Flood waters started to rise and hit, these unlikely couples didn’t part company in panic and due to different anatomies, in order to reach high ground, but stayed faithfully close to each other, probably holding hands and hugging each other, until the bitter end, and tragically drowned together like in some old-fashioned Hollywood movie. But neither I, nor the Bible, nor anybody I know has ever made that kind of claim, not even if you strip down the humor from it. So the bishop is on F3, the horse is on D2, and THAT’S why it’s checkmate. Go back to that part of my post and play it back in slow motion if you still don’t get it. And I’m not counting all the other several unprovable assumptions you are making in your latest reconstruction of how the Flood should have happened. Contrary to what you’re saying there are many fossils of so called modern animals (lions, tigers, zebras, giraffes, hippos, dogs, bats, squirrels, sharks, crocodiles, etc), and there are many so called ancient animals that were thought by evolutionists to have been extincted ages ago which are still with us. There are rumors that terriers were bred several days after the end of the Flood. In these last four thousand years many so called modern animals may have changed a lot from their fossilized ancestors, much like modern Italian comes from Latin: they are very different today, but all the changes came in a few centuries. There is nothing in the way the fossils are layered that looks any different from an ecological breakdown of where the animals were generally standing when the Flood hit them. It’s not like your imaginary, groundless, reckless reconstruction of how the prediluvian world must have looked like proves that the actual layering of the fossils is inconsistent with the biblical Flood. That reasoning is preposterous. It’s the other way around. The actual layering of the fossils tells us which animals were hanging with which animals when it started to rain.
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wow. 248. should go back and read some of them.
anyone ever read this?
http://www.natcenscied.org/resources/articles/8619_issue_11_volume_4_number_1__3_12_2003.asp
I’m not sure why it is wrong and a boat load of animals is right. Saltydog, if you are correct that tigers and penguins and giraffes didn’t leave near each other before the flood, and you undoubtedly are, isn’t it true that they would have lived near each other after the flood?
Isn’t it true that they don’t live near each other now?
Isn’t it true that we never see, say, a mountain lion swimming across the indian ocean from asia to north america? how is that if all the animals on the ark exited via the same door, on Mt Ararat, then every animal on earth should be found in post-flood fossils near Mt Ararat? We would expect to see the highest number of species and genera and families and orders of animals at the center of their origin.
Isn’t it true that we do not observe this pattern?
Isn’t it true that continental drift, speciation, and deep time are a much more plausible explanation?
Isn’t it true that you could easily twist the words of your bible to support this idea, just as easily as you have twisted them to support your Grate Flud?
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Tychicus: Interesting as well. And how does a literal Adam fit into that paradigm?
Roger: Adam literally existed and was given the name ADAM, which in Hebrew is the same word for “man”. This fact has lead others to believe that the story of Adam and Eve is allegorical, typical of all human beings, but not particular to any folks who lived as the first human beings.
I see how this might be so, but I take the passage literally because it reads as a literal account in almost every other way. And when I think about it, I think it fitting that the first man was named “Man”.
What was Adam’s first assigned task? God told Adam to name all the animals. But before we think that Adam picked random sounds out of the air to assign them to the beasts, we consider the point of naming them.
In a sense, God cause Adam to become the first scientist. His task was to observe the animals in order to understand how one animal differed from one another. What makes a cat different from a dog? What makes a tiger different from a cheetah? and on it goes. As Adam learned to make distinctions between things, he assigned names to them based on their most distinguishing characteristics.
As Adam came to the end of his project, his question eventually switched from, “How is one animal different from another?” to “How am I different than all the animals?” The simple answer is, “you are MAN”, whatever that means. That was his name because the term ADAM, in Hebrew, evoked the difference in the mind of Adam, between himself and all the other animals.
Another thing he learned in the process, according to scripture, is that ADAM did not have a mate. God knew this, but he was waiting for ADAM to figure it out. Once Adam figured it out, God made Eve.
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VICTORIA,
“However, I have known a great many pastors, and they don’t speak the way you write.”
“As I said before, I have never known another pastor who talks or writes as you do, and I have known some of the best!”
After I have apologized more than once you continue to make general attacks on my character more than once proving that your acceptance of my apology was not sincere.
Ex 20:16 – You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor – you communicated it to me but in front of an audience twice. You implied I don’t think God’s Word is true and accused me of trying to sidestep a question.
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Roger: Just to be clear, I myself believe in a literal Adam. I asked the question b/c you had in a sense come to the defense of Pauline and Peter after Xion had said [in summarizing their posts] that they ’spiritualize’ the first few chapters of Genesis. So after reading your good post, I was simply wondering if you, too, would take the position [as I believe Pauline said might be possible] that there may not have been a literal Adam.
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Roger how come the bible says that bats are birds?
How come the bible says grasshoppers walk with four legs?
How come the bible says quail come from the sea?
You’d think a divinely created First Scientists might do better than this. My little boy knows better than this.
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It’s all literally true, Erasmus. When the Bible and reality conflict, it’s reality that’s wrong.
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SBG – 251
You continued to ask for an apology- You then turned it around to mean that I had gossiped about you. I answered you in post 245-
Your “character” isn’t the issue, I think you know this, however, it might be your ego is hurt. You did try to sidestep a direct question, and then you finally gave a direct answer in post 244 . . . .
For my answer to your post 244 . . . . my post 246
SBG, what other “perspective” is there than GOD’S?
So you finally answer the question…… ALL the verses in Exodus 20 are literal!
SBG, I haven’t gossiped about you at all- If you had not made the snide statement about me in post 231 to another poster AND your remark in post 229 “You know you are arguing with an ordained pastor not an atheist?” …. or, had you answered the question about Exodus 20 DIRECTLY long before you did,…….. you and I would not be having this conversation. You have apologized I have accepted, lets leave it at that.
I hope you have a wonderful day.
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Victoria you have a wonderful sweet little old lady persona. I pray that you run for your local school board. Talent like that needs to be shared with folks that can use it.
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253:
How come the bible says that bats are birds?
The word we render birds means simply “owner of a wing”, the word being ‘owph, which comes from a root word which means to cover or to fly. (http://www.tektonics.org/af/batbird.html)
How come the bible says grasshoppers walk with four legs?
There are several verses that are translated in our English Bibles to imply that insects have four legs. In reality, the Hebrew word sherets, translated as “insect” is not nearly as specific as the term “insect” would imply. The word really refers to crawling or swimming creatures that tend to swarm together. For example, in Genesis, sherets refers to swarming sea creatures,27 in the flood account (Genesis 7) sherets refers to rodents,28 and in Leviticus, sherets refers to crustaceans,29 insects,30 rodents,31 and reptiles.32 The term sherets was never intended as a biological classification system, so to say that it specifically refers to “insects” is deceptive.
What is common among all the creatures mentioned is that they have short legs and often travel together in groups. In fact, the Bible defines sherets as “crawling on its belly” and “whatever walks on all fours.”33 What is common in this group of crustaceans, insects, rodents, and reptiles is that they all crawl on “all four” legs. Some from this group actually have more than four legs. However, the Hebrew idiom “on all fours” refers to any creature that crawls low to the ground on at least four legs. Were the writers of the Bible unaware that insects have six legs? This statement would seem rather silly, but atheists actually make this claim. However, one of the verses clearly indicates that these “four-legged” insects have six legs:
‘Yet these you may eat among all the winged insects [sherets] which walk on all fours: those which have above their feet jointed legs with which to jump on the earth. (Leviticus 11:21)
The key part of the verse is the phrase “above their feet jointed legs.” The Hebrew uses two different words to describe the “feet” (regel) and “legs” (kera). What the verse says is that these insects walk on four “feet” (their anterior four short legs), with an additional two “legs” that are used for jumping. Therefore, all six appendages are described. (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/false.html)
How come the bible says quail come from the sea?
He sent a wind and it brought quail from the sea. This wind blew in quail. And the quail came into the camp. And it says they came beside the camp about a day’s journey on this side and a day’s journey on the other side. So not only were they around but they were around for quite an extensive range of area.
And it says not only were they one day’s journey on that side of the camp, one day’s journey on this side of the camp all filled with quail but two cubits deep…two cubits deep, about two cubits deep. A cubit was originally sort of from your elbow to the end of your hand, maybe 18 inches give or take. So you’re talking three to four feet, it’s an about kind of figure. Let’s take the critic who decided that it was kind of four feet so he thought he’d do some calculation. He said this is one of the most of the most ridiculous things he ever read. You mean at one day’s journey on that side and one day’s journey on this day that that whole entire area around the camp of Israel is four feet deep in quail? So he calculated. That would be nineteen trillion, five hundred and thirty-eight billion, four hundred and sixty-eight million, three hundred and six thousand, six hundred and seventy-two quail. And so naturally that was cause for great laughter. Sure, 19 trillion quail all piled up.
But he only showed his ignorance. The Hebrew scripture doesn’t say they were stacked up from the ground up. What scripture indicates in the Hebrew text is that God blew the quail into the wilderness from the Nile valley and the birds all came flying in about two cubits above the ground, that’s what it says. Quail don’t usually just come in and hover about two cubits above the ground but they were blown in there by the Lord. And it was easy for the people to get them that way, they just reach out and say, “Which one would you like?” “I’ll take that one.” Take a stick and wap that one in the head. The quail were coming in, flying at that level and hovering in the area until all the people had all that they wanted. (http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/55-17.htm)
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ERASMUS,
You beat me to it, NORM P. So the Bible says bats are flying animals, grasshoppers walk on four legs and jump with the other two and quail came from the sea not out of the sea. Not a problem.
Just a side note, some quail normally migrate from Europe to the Sinai Peninsula over the sea in the spring (during the time of the Exodus).
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VICTORIA,
I pray you have a wonderful day as well. God bless.
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Erasmus – 256
Sorry to disappoint you my friend, I am far from a little old anything . . your description is comical- LOL.
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Norm, that is impressive. Did you right click or use the control-c shortcut?
So, when my bible says bats are birds, and you are saying that my bible doesn’t REALLY MEAN bats are birds, I must have the wrong bible? You are saying that the words in my bible are not the words that are supposed to be there? You are saying that while the word ‘birds’ in the bible is the wrong word, that bats in this context are birds? Wouldn’t this mean that airplanes are also birds? Isn’t this a pretty stupid way of going about the business of the definitions of all words?
Since my bible says that grasshoppers walk on six legs (but you say that they walk on four and jump with two which is NOT TRUE, O Dishonest Liar For Jesus, Watch One sometime instead of cutting and pasting from your syndicated shaman apologetic) I must have the wrong bible? How would I know if my bible were correct? Are these verses a good place to look? What translations actually convey the meaning of the original text, if we can’t trust KJV as I was raised what can we trust? If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, the saying goes…
Since my bible says quail came from the sea, and you are saying that quail can’t come from the sea but that the bible did not explain this very well and you have to add the extra caveat about the wind and then I lost you with all of the measurements but i agree it sure sounds ridiculous, anyway, you are saying that since my bible doesn’t have the full explanation I have the wrong bible? where may I find your explanation within my bible? Isn’t this adding to the words of God, explicitly forbidden by the bible itself? Let’s try to be consistent here.
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Victoria, I don’t care how old you are. I was making the point that your style and the words you choose make you SEEM like a curmudgeonly little old granny woman. I was imagining a floweredy dress, just a few stray hairs on the chin, little bit of tobacco spit in the corner of your mouth, and a crazed glint in your eye that only goes away when you manage to catch a youngun and bust it’s hind end about three good times.
Sure is entertaining to see y’all play No True Scotsman and see who can outdo the other one making arguments from perceived consequences.
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Erasmus, Erasmus, Erasmus: Plenty there to discuss and argue about including translation accuracy, but you want to carp about phenomenological language? Why don’t you start by proposing how the writer should have described these events so that the succeeding generation of readers would understand what happened. Perhaps you can start by describing how Moses should have used or not used in “Kind” in Genesis 1.
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Norm, I’d rather us dispense with the nonsense and you stop pretending that the bible has anything meaningful to say about the history of the earth or personal morality or objective reality or really pretty much anything else.
I’ll bite though.
First of all, I don’t suppose for one nanosecond that the writers had succeeding generations of readers in mind. There is no good reason to believe that this Moses dude wrote anything or even existed, other than the bibble. Much less reason to suppose that such a gentleman wrote Genesis. Even less reason to suppose that Genesis is a valid account of anything other than a narrow cultural myth, and very much likely a mythological account of the transition to agriculture. No reason whatsoever to treat as a history of real events and real people (except for your post hoc desire to clean up the words of your supposed messiah to preserve his omniscience).
If I were to suggest what ‘moses’ should have done, it would involve going fishing and leaving this bibble business to some one else. Of course, that’s probably what happened anyway.
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Hello Salty Dog. Here I am to respond.
One note before we get into it though. In the post I’m about to respond to, you made an issue of two sections I omitted from the earlier one. I do not feel obligated to quote the post in its entirety because (1), these posts are already very long and quoting each one in full in the course of responding would quickly make them so long as to be unreadable, and (2) the original post still exists and anyone who wants to see the omitted material can simply scroll up and read the original.
So I will be omitting text from this one as well, for those two reasons. If you feel the omission means I didn’t respond to something important, feel free to point that out. I try only to omit what can safely be omitted (always mindful that anyone wanting to read the entirety has it available just a quick mouse-scroll away) without losing the main points.
So, here we go. Quotes from the earlier post in italics, my current responses in normal text.
ASaltyDog: “I do not believe there are any such things as a natural laws as you apparently intend them. I do believe that “anything you look at, no matter how mundane and commonplace” is ultimately caused by God’s deliberate action. I also believe that God keeps His word. This is what makes science possible.”
SteveG: “OK, how about this then: Things normally happen in repeatable, predictable ways. If you drop an object, it falls. If you drop an egg into boiling water and leave it there a few minutes, its liquid contents become solid. If you then put the boiling water into a container and keep it a temperature of less than 32 degrees Farenheit for a period of time, the water becomes solid. I call it natural law. You call it the deliberate action of God. Other than the term used, is there a practical difference?”
ASALTYDOG: You bet. How do you account for such uniformity of nature? Have you tested all the eggs of the world? How do you know that tomorrow the eggs will continue to become solid?
This is a theme you return to often. Because I can’t demonstrate that it happens 100 percent of the time past and present and will continue to in the future, it’s ok to discount it.
Well, the first time you drop something while standing on the Earth and it doesn’t fall, let us know. Most reasonable people would agree the law of gravity has been quite well established, which shifts the burden of proof to the challenger to show why it isn’t.
Why do you assume that tomorrow you might drop your keys and see them hover in mid-air rather than falling?
___
ASaltyDog: “You admitted that of course if I bring God into this debate, then homologies can’t be said to be necessary proof of common descent. But you complained that then God can be seen *everywhere*. I answered that this precisely is the position you want to attack. So quit complaining about what your opponents actually believe, quit misrepresenting them, and deal with their arguments.”
SteveG: “Take your own advice. That is not the position I am talking about at all. Someone who believes the universe has no operating principles at all, just the individual and deliberate actions of God who just happens to prefer to make the same decisions every time except those few times when makes an exception, are beyond the reach of logic and science.”
ASALTYDOG: On the contrary, Steve: that is the only possible foundation for science. It is your position that makes science impossible. And you still can’t use homologies as evidence of common descent.
It is the fact that nature operates in observable and predictable ways that makes science possible. Whether nature operates that way because God designed it to do so or because it just does is irrelevant to that issue. It does. If a day comes when suddenly things don’t behave they way they’ve always been seen to before, then we’ll have a problem. Until, and unless, such a day comes, the universe continues to operate in observable and predictable ways.
Homologies are strong evidence of common descent, to a scientist seeking to understand the natural forces that shape life on Earth. If you want to insist that magical God COULD have just made things that look similar, well, ok, but where is your evidence that God DID do this, or for that matter, that God even exists?
You are quick to accuse others of logic errors and don’t recognize your own question begging?
___
SteveG: “If the universe does not operate under predictable rules, then there is no way we can ever really know anything about it.”
ASALTYDOG: That’s exactly your problem. How do you know that the universe operates under predictable rules? Because if you can’t know that, as you admit, there is no way you can have science. Given your world view, then, how do you account for the predictability of nature?
I believe nature is predictable because God designed it to be predictable. I do not believe that God has to take proactive action in order for the planet to keep rotating or for my keys to fall, which you keep insisting he does.
___
SteveG: “God COULD have created you yesterday and also created a brainful of false memories for you to give you the illusion that you’ve lived for however many years you’ve been around. No way to prove that didn’t happen, but also absolutely no reason to think it did.”
ASALTYDOG: If God did what you suggest I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, therefore God did not create me yesterday. No way to prove it? There, I proved it. And again, nobody believes in the God you envision. The God of the Bible is not a covenant-breaking idol, so quit building strawgods.
Stating your theological belief proves nothing except that it’s what you believe. You did this in the other post as well.
Prove that God didn’t create you yesterday with false memories of your past and a false belief about whether you are still in your sins.
___
SteveG: “This is not the position I’m discussing because there is simply no point in debating a person who believes that way. No matter how much evidence I could present to you, you would shrug off with “God did it that way,” and what can I say to that? Nothing, really. So why bother?”
ASALTYDOG: This is vintage whining-SteveG at his best. “I can debate anybody, really, and I can demonstrate evolution to anybody, except to someone who doesn’t believe it. I’m really good at proving Genesis wrong, except if I meet someone who believes it. Why can’t you Christians pretend there’s no God for a minute?” Hilarious.
You assume the existence of a God you can’t prove and then assert that the belief is evidence against science. There is not much to say to someone with such an evidence-free conviction of things.
I never said I could “demonstrate” evolution to “anyone.” The person has to be at least willing to consider the possibility. I can’t prove Genesis wrong to someone who sticks his fingers in his ears and chants “lalala” rather than consider the possibility.
ASALTYDOG: Rest assured that I belong precisely to the group of people who believe that the scientific evidence supports Biblical Creationism. Rest assured that you are really “engaging” my position. And for someone who compared me to a drug addict, your complaining now that my word “attack” was hostile and unfriendly makes you sound like you are stuck exactly in the middle between hysteria and hypocrisy.
A theological assertion that you are not in your sins is not evidence of any kind, Dog, let alone scientific. So far you have shown no scientific evidence. You have asked weird questions, pumped out a lot of words that boil down to how I can’t *prove* the real world is real so it’s ok to assume it’s not, and a variety of other oddities that are both amusing and frustrating.
But no evidence so far.
___
SteveG: “How many of your fellow Christians have come to your aid, Dog, to say yes, we do believe there are no natural laws? Zero, by my count. Are you sure you are such a traditional Christian?”
ASALTYDOG: Rest assured I am in very good company. To my aid? For what? For replying to you? By the way I think they are doing such a fine job that they don’t need me to come to their aid either.
Perhaps to agree that Christians believe keys might not always fall to the ground when dropped because God has to decide to catch them and put them on the ground every time? My impression is that is really cracked idea that Christians other than you would agree is cracked.
___
SteveG: “Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)”
ASaltyDog: “I have no idea from what pocket you have drawn these natural laws, but of course it must be a trick. I deny your concept of natural laws. I do believe that as a rule God faithfully does things in predictable ways. On what grounds do you believe there are such things as natural laws?”
SteveG: “On the grounds that when I drop my keys in the parking lot, they never hang in midair. They always fall. But as I said at the top, perhaps we’re talking about the same thing using different vocabularies.”
ASALTYDOG: That’s not the same thing as showing that there are natural laws. You have not seen any natural law walking loose in your parking lot, trust me. You have only seen some keys dropping a few times. Will the keys fall the next time you drop them?
If they don’t, I’ll have to revise my understanding of how things work. I’ll let you know if that happens.
Have you seen God reaching out to grab your keys? How do you know that’s what happens? Or I should say, without resorting to restating your unprovable theological belief, what *physical* evidence do you have?
You drop your keys, they fall. I say, gravity. You say, God. How do you know you’re right?
___ASaltyDog: “Sorry, no neutral nor common ground here either. I don’t believe there are any natural laws governing tree growth. I do believe God makes trees grow. How do you know there are natural laws governing tree growth?”
SteveG: “I was mistaken, you’re right …. we do have no common ground. Unless you are playing some elaborate practical joke, which I really hope is the case.”
ASALTYDOG: Knock, knock. Anybody home? I ask questions, I get no answers.
I answered. We see trees behaving the same way every time we observe them. We have no reason to think they behave any differently when not being observed. Ergo, that’s the way trees respond to seasonal changes. It’s their nature.
If you can’t accept that answer because you insist on believing God has to decide to make it happen every spring, then you go right ahead.
ASaltyDog: “The true God is a covenant-keeping God, who promises continuity and uniformity in nature, and whose Word is sure and trustable.”
SteveG: “Which would imply that God has established laws by which the Creation operates, except in those cases where He chooses to suspend the normal order of things and do something different. So you do believe in natural laws, you just refuse to call them by that name? You continue to be a conundrum.”
ASALTYDOG: No. That’s still the lie of deism. God is not contemplating from a distance how an engine (or a law) works. There are no laws of nature. There’s nothing impersonal in how nature works. Christ makes it rain. He makes trees grow. He makes the water boil. He keeps the moon rotating around the earth. He commands the wind and it obeys him. He makes your keys drop.
It is true that one the general tenets of Deism is that God does not, as a rule, actively intervene in the workings of the universe. The “absentee landlord” idea. (This is a general tenet, not a universally-held one, but I agree it is a common one.)
Have you seen Christ doing these things? Or have you just seen them happen and believe it is Christ doing it?
I think most Christians, while believing in a God who intervenes more personally and more often than a Deist does, would not insist that only direct and proactive action of God is what makes anything happen at all. Laws of nature simply describe things that happen – “a body at rest tends to remain at rest” for example, just means that if a ball is sitting motionless on the sidewalk, it’s going to stay motionless until some outside force … a person, the wind or something … causes it to move. One need not insist that Christ keeps his hand on the ball to hold it still until that happens, and I doubt you will find many Christians who think you do.
___
NOTE by ASALTYDOG: Here, curiously enough, there was a section in my original post #151 which you quite uncharacteristically choose not to quote, for some reason. And I must add that, most definitely, the reason you skipped this is NOT necessarily that you find the section embarrassing when compared to things you’ll say later on in this post. END OF NOTE
As I said at the top, I delete things for the sake of what brevity can be gained by it, because otherwise these posts risk growing to be so long that they disrupt the thread and annoy all the other people.
I don’t recall specifically what I omitted here, but for the sake of completion, here’s the original section from #151:
“I am not quite sure what you mean by “covenant-breaking idol,” so please elaborate.”
Sure. Here goes. You wrote somewhere: “it’s legitimate to tell people they don’t understand the theory [of evolution] if they’re repeatedly demanding to be shown something the theory never said would be there and refusing to accept that they have a mistaken expectation.” Now before you give Christians this piece of advice about the theory of evolution, you would do well to avoid writing stuff like this: “Once you start bringing a God who can and does disrupt the natural laws at his whim, you can claim anything. . . Once you start positing a God who can do anything he wants, then nothing is evidence of anything.” I didn’t bring and I didn’t posit. Sorry the God I believe in is different from what you would like Him to be. The God you describe does not exist.
After that, it picks up with “The true God is a covenant-keeping God, who promises continuity and uniformity in nature, and whose Word is sure and trustable.,” which appears above, and then there’s the current discussion and that leads into the discussion of logical fallacy.
Now I will be sure to note that I am omitting a few lines that are all just quoting the back-and-forth of the earlier comments with no new content, so people who want to review can scroll back. We’ll pick up with:
SteveG: “Similar structures may be sign of common descent in one case and of similar adaptive measures in another.”
ASaltyDog: “If so, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent?”
SteveG: “Common descent is the linchpin of evolutionary theory. Ultimately, all life comes through it. But in any single example where two organisms have similar adaptive measures, there may or may not be a direct line of descent between them.”
ASaltyDog: “Wow Steve, you hang yourself and you don’t even notice it. Please don’t tell me you don’t see that you are left with no argument for evolution based on homology?”
SteveG: “I think it’s more that you didn’t understand me. Let’s try again. Ultimately, every life form is explained by common descent. The issue with convergent evolution becomes the question of just how far back you have to go to find the common ancestor between any two species. For similar creatures, say cats and dogs, it’s not as far back as for dogs and insects. There may be lineages where two lines develop similar adaptive features that don’t go all the way back to the common ancestor. Insects developed flight long before there were birds. Go back far enough and birds and insects have a common ancestor — common descent — but it is too far back to account for the similar adaptation — convergent. Of course, I suppose it’s easier to just say God done it, and leave it at that.”
ASALTYDOG: I understand perfectly well what you are saying. I also understand perfectly well when my questions aren’t answered. You are left with no argument for evolution based on homology. And so you suddenly point at the sky behind my back and say, “Wow, watch that bird over there!” I am not so easily distracted, Steve.
I assume the question you believe I didn’t answer is, “If so, why are they necessarily evidence of common descent?”
Who said they are “necessarily”so? You want to believe God instantly created them and some just happen to look like others. Go right ahead. This is a frustrating discussion to have because we do not start with any common ground. You cannot prove that aliens from another world didn’t import animals from other planets to populate the Earth. Once you move into the territory of asking “Well couldn’t it really be X, if we assume that every piece of physical evidence we have and everything we think we know about how the universe works is wrong?” Well, yes, but that’s so completely divorced from reality as to be useless.
“Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof.”
ASaltyDog: “This is not how you speak when not challenged in this way. Or aren’t you the same guy who wrote, “Science DOES contradict [biblical revelation], and it HAS been proven false.” So can you or can you not prove common descent?”
SteveG: “Here you conflate two very different things. Let’s imagine that over the next ten years a series of discoveries prove that Darwin was absolutely wrong and evolution has been a red herring all this time. That would still not prove that Biblical Creationism is true. This is not an A or B choice, where if you prove one false the other must be true. You would still need positive evidence in favor of Creationism (or at least you would in order to show people skeptical of that view objective reasons why they should consider it.) Those of us who operate it the real world of natural law (or a God who operates consistently if you prefer) understand that the evidence does not support the idea of all life forms appearing at the same time, or within days of each other. There is no evidence of a global flood or a single global extinction. Human beings did not all speak the same language until a sudden catastrophic scattering and gave them all different ones. (And people having different languages doesn’t prevent them from communicating as the omniscient God mistakenly believed it would in the Tower of Babel story.) Even if we had no idea what did happen, even if our ideas about evolution turned out to be wrong, you would still not have evidence that Creation is the correct alternative. Before you go around accusing people of misrepresenting others’ views, you should look in the mirror. Thanks to the predictable laws of nature, I am sure you’ll see your own reflection.”
ASALTYDOG: How does not-proving common descent prove the Bible wrong? If not common descent, what proved the Bible wrong?
What proves Genesis wrong (unless reality isn’t real) is that there is ample evidence for an old Earth and universe, lifeforms that didn’t live at the same time and in fact were separated by billions of years in some cases, and a few books’ worth of other points.
Much of this same evidence strongly supports evolution through common descent but, it is conceivable that in the future, further discoveries could lead to changes. But what we already know is enough to say that Genesis’s story of Creation is not literally true.
You prove to me now that human beings did not all speak the same language. You prove to me now the global flood did not occur. You are the one making the assertion here, not I. “Biblical revelation has been proved false.” “Science does contradict biblical revelation.” And on top of that, how can you be sure I’ll see my own reflection on the mirror?
As you well know (or should being as you are an expert on logic) negatives can’t be proved. This part of the communications problem in fact, as you are challenging me to “prove” God didn’t poof everything into existence.
That a flood occurred or that all humans spoke the same language until Babel are positive claims. The burden of proof is on you.
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ASaltyDog: “If you can [prove common descent], isn’t that unscientific? And if you cannot, what’s wrong with being a creationist?”
SteveG: “You are free to believe whatever you want to.”
ASALTYDOG: In other words you concede here that you can’t prove common descent. But you didn’t come to this forum to announce that you can’t prove common descent, that homologies aren’t evidence for common descent, and that creationists are free to believe whatever they want. No, you came to this forum to announce that “creationists really aren’t interested in the truth” and “refuse to acknowledge the observed facts of the real world” since “they deny a well-supported scientific theory”, and believe instead a view which “science DOES contradict”, which actually “contradicts what we see with our own eyes”, which therefore “HAS been proven false”, and which “should not be acceptable to anyone”, because “science trumps ancient myth, yes”, which means that “AIG and the ICR are rightly maligned” because “they spread misinformation and confusion about what the facts are”, and indeed “they represent about as blatant a case of ‘lying for Jesus’ as there is”, which in turns upsets you because “it is frustrating trying to talk about science and facts with people who avowedly are unwilling to even consider the possibility that they might be mistaken” (all emphasis yours).
Right.
I can’t make you not believe what you do. You are free to believe it. I am free to not believe it.
Why is this a problem for you? Here you seem to be gravely personally offended,
SteveG: “People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.”
ASaltyDog: “Cheap shot. Watch this: “People who prefer to believe in evolution probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 6000 years, and probably not even then.”
SteveG: “what’s cheap about it? Your converse is also true.”
ASALTYDOG: My point exactly. Cheap shot.
Cheap because it’s true? Hmm.
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ASaltyDog: “Why don’t you start with a Creator?”
SteveG: “You cannot logically start with the conclusion.”
ASaltyDog: “Except if the conclusion happens to be “evolution”? Can’t you see you are also “starting with the conclusion”?”
SteveG: “Nope. And you are just assuming that I do. You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.” ”
ASaltyDog: “Yeah, right. When have you seen natural laws the last time?”
SteveG: “Just now. I press keys on my keyboard and they cause the desired letters and words to appear on my screen. They do this because of known principles about physics and electronics, not because God is making the words appear.”
ASALTYDOG: Prove it. Rest assured you haven’t seen — ever — any natural law. You have seen only letters appear on your screen.
Nor have you seen Jesus make the rain fall. You just see the rain fall.
How is that position better?
And the formulas and diagrams you have in mind may describe (tentatively) how things work, not the reason. Nor can the formulas and diagrams tell you in advance what will happen the next time you press a key. So you don’t start with just what you can observe. So you do start with unproved assumptions, and interpret the facts accordingly. So you do start with the theory of evolution. So why don’t you start with a Creator?
The formulas and diagrams CAN tell me in advance what will happen next time. That’s the very definition of science, a theory that makes correct predictions. I press the P key and a P appears. I now predict that the next time I use that key the same thing will occur: P.
If I have a formula that tells me P will appear but a B appears instead, then something is wrong with either my formula or my machine.
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SteveG: “Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study.”
ASaltyDog: “Wow. And tell me, how does science get to know what the natural laws are in order to get the whole thing started?”
SteveG: “Observation. Measurement. Testing. Repeating. If something happens the same way every time when the same conditions apply, you have found a natural law.”
ASALTYDOG: I have? In your scenario, at what point do you quit repeating the test and call it a law? How do you know that testing one more time wouldn’t give a different result? How can you ever reach certainty that your keys will always fall to the ground if dropped? To say that they always fell in the past does not prove that they will always continue to fall.
It gives you very good reason to expect that they will and also to be surprised if they don’t. As I said, let us know when that happens.
To say the fact that just because every object in the history of the world that has been dropped has fallen doesn’t have any bearing on whether the next one will is incoherent.
So in short how does “law” in your vocabulary differ from “fallible, unsubstantiated, unjustified, completely irrational generalization”?
Umm .. by being none of those things. How do you justify making that really astonishing claim?
And since this must be what you mean by “law”, how does science, being based as you say on this completely irrational foundation, be trusted to tell us anything true? Why do you cherish a world view that destroys science? Christianity instead provides all the prerequisites and preconditions for making science possible. Judging from your writings, I thought you love science. So why aren’t you a Christian?
Too many kooks.
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SteveG: “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.”
ASaltyDog: “Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.”
SteveG: “If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet. Where is the fallacy?”
ASaltyDog: “Steve, you need to study basic concepts in logic, fast.”
NOTE by ASALTYDOG: At this point I can’t help noticing that although you have faithfully and exhaustively quoted me throughout, you again left out the rest of this particular paragraph of mine, which for the record ended with the following words: “Google for ‘affirming the consequent’. Then you’ll find you didn’t need to learn it — you are already a master of it.” Of course, this quiet but careful work of editing is most definitely NOT necessarily related to the fact that the next thing you want to do here is to make sure everybody understands that of course you have always been very familiar, possibly since you were in the womb, with the logical fallacy know as ‘affirming the consequent’. END OF THE NOTE.
Not that long, but since college. Although that has been a long time ago. And as I said, I didn’t commit that particular error. I said a specific effect has a cause of some sort. I did not say it must be a single specific cause, when in fact other causes are possible, which is what the error means.
SteveG: “Here you actually do have somewhat of a point. I am familiar with the error of affirming the consequent and your if-then series illustrates it; however, the scientific method is not guilty of it. And importantly, neither is my example. If I had said “When it rains, the ground gets wet. If the ground is wet, it must have rained,” THAT would be the logic error. I didn’t say that, however. My B statement was, “If the ground is wet, something made it wet.” Maybe rain. Maybe, as you noted earlier, melting snow. Maybe just dew. Maybe the fire department did come open all the hydrants during the night. But something caused the ground to be wet. As an illustration of natural law, it means the most probable cause can often be deduced. If it is the middle of summer in the tropics, no snow around, and you heard the rain falling overnight, you can be confident assuming the ground is wet because it rained. If there were clear skies all night, then the wetness is likely just a morning dew. So yes, I did overlook your description of the error, but I did not actually commit the error. So, score one-half point for you. Be proud.”
ASALTYDOG: For a moment here the whole world was holding its breath. Is the scientific method guilty of affirming the consequent? Fortunately then SteveG took the microphone and reassured everybody. No, it isn’t, he smiled. Whew! Thanks Steve! No need to bore us with an explanation of why it isn’t, of course. We just trust your word. That you were “familiar with the error of affirming the consequent” was not something you needed to point out, as I am sure most people here have noticed it a long time ago. And finally, the wet street example is MY example, not yours. Call me a drug addict any time you want, but don’t step on my blue suede shoes, and don’t start putting my stuff into your pockets. I won’t even accept “half-points” as payment for something that I don’t want to sell. What you said about the wet street is not your example, but a misrepresentation of my example. Which is also something that should drive me mad.
I suspect that isn’t a very long drive. I used your wet street example because it was the analogy that was out there to use. That’s how dialogues work. One person says “By analogy, consider … “ and the other says, “I disagree. To illustrate using your analogy .. “
I didn’t realize you had it copyrighted.
OMISSION ALERT: I am dropping two paragraphs from the following for the sake of brevity. Diehards can review them in the earlier posts.
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SteveG: “Even the most ardent evolutionary theorist would agree this is an inference. It is the most likely inference. It is supported by a host of other evidence beyond the geological distribution. But yes, if God wanted to distribute the fossils through the geological strata in a way that just makes it look like evolution is the best explanation — to trick us I guess so we won’t get saved and make heaven overcrowded — then nobody can prove that’s not what happened. So please, do go on believing in Creationism, your best evidence being “well nobody can prove it didn’t happen that way.”
ASALTYDOG: Sorry, but that is not the most likely inference. That may be the most likely inference if the theory of evolution is correct. If biblical creationism is correct, that is by no means the most likely inference. First you choose a world view, and then on the host of assumptions such a preference entails you decide which inferences are most likely. Your gathering a “host of other inference” does not impress me in the least since it is based on the assumption that the theory of evolution is true.
But you are not assuming Creationism is true? Pull the other one.
If you think facts speak for themselves, and that it is possible to objectively gather, in the abstract, the most likely inferences, period, on such a topic as the prehistory of the world, which is not open to direct investigation, you have the epistemological sophistication of a wet sock. Finally, you certainly haven’t even come close to “proving it didn’t happen that way” (and your original boastful claim, which you were forced to eat, was that it is a fact that science has proved the Bible wrong)
Don’t be too proud of yourself, Mr. Spock. I didn’t, and don’t, concede that point.
. But please don’t come and tell me what my claims are. My claim is not that the evidence for believing in the Bible is simply negative (you can’t prove it wrong), although it is also that. I already told you that everything is evidence of the truth of the Bible.
You did, but that’s ridiculous. Everything that exists is evidence only that it exists. It is not in any way evidence of how it came to exist. You say that as if you think you’ve said something clever. You have not. You’re just running in a circle (“God made it … because it exists … because God made it”) and then relentlessly mocking people who are not impressed.
The rest of the post was already responded to in #240.
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Erasmus at #249:
“Saltydog, if you are correct that tigers and penguins and giraffes didn’t leave near each other before the flood, and you undoubtedly are, isn’t it true that they would have lived near each other after the flood?”
At least that’s what they told the press. And the thing did start promisingly. I have reason to believe it was the penguins who started spreading falsehoods about the tigers’ net income, but also the giraffes were probably tired of the baby tiger crying upstairs. The whole thing quickly degenerated. The giraffes moved away and started a rock band, the tigers sued the penguins, and the penguins, who must have known some politician, were able to get the custody of the baby tiger.
“Isn’t it true that they don’t live near each other now?”
Some guys bear grudges for a long time, you know.
“Isn’t it true that we never see, say, a mountain lion swimming across the indian ocean from asia to north america?”
The fact you haven’t seen one so far doesn’t mean that one could not swim from Asia tomorrow, so we all really need you to go back and keep scanning the horizon.
“how is that if all the animals on the ark exited via the same door, on Mt Ararat, then every animal on earth should be found in post-flood fossils near Mt Ararat?”
There are rumors that there was a back door in the ark.
“We would expect to see the highest number of species and genera and families and orders of animals at the center of their origin. Isn’t it true that we do not observe this pattern?”
Yes, there was talk of having a convention like that to celebrate, Woodstock style, the End of the Flood, but then it was cancelled when it started to rain again. Everybody panicked, running away in all directions, and when they realized the rain had stopped, the cangaroos were already hopping in Downtown Sydney.
“Isn’t it true that continental drift, speciation, and deep time are a much more plausible explanation?”
Of course, and don’t forget Global Warming and Islamic terrorism.
“Isn’t it true that you could easily twist the words of your bible to support this idea, just as easily as you have twisted them to support your Grate Flud?”
I can easily twist anything, yes. Words, Bibles, rods, necks, you name it.
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Erasmus: No Moses dude eh? Interesting. I think Aristotle said that in the wisest of minds resides the corner of a fool.
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Saltydog, so you have nothing to add to the impossibility of Duh Flud as told by biogeography? the facts are not in your favor my friend. Why is there no evidence from biogeography to support Teh Flud?
Norm, I have no reason to believe that moses existed. Do you, outside of the bibble? I’m serious, I don’t know if there is any independent evidence for Moses or not. Enlighten me.
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Erasmus
After your last ‘try’ at describing me, this latest ‘work’ imitates your shabby hillbilly approach as a male? ….. (sorry not to sure about the gender) to debate. ‘Simple’ sorts of endeavor which you use to distinguish yourself, are mirrored as having no plaid on your skirt, not to mention your pipes aren’t tuned to the music . . . . more accurately they aren’t playing anything on this thread, because they haven’t learned the melody-
You can’t obliterate the Bible from the discussion, as you have ‘tried’- Before you come down from your ‘make believe perch’ sitting rather precariously as you sputter about, take a good look at what you don’t believe, and try to make sense of WHY you aren’t able to grasp the TRUTH of GOD and the LORD Jesus Christ!
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Erasmus at #268:
“Saltydog, so you have nothing to add to the impossibility of Duh Flud as told by biogeography?”
What those guys are doing is hard to top, I mean, let’s face it, it’s pretty hard to add to the impossibility of Duh Flud if it’s already an impossibility, but I’ll see if I can find a way to make it even more impossible than that.
“the facts are not in your favor my friend.”
That’s what my wife also told me, but I must have put the keys of my FloodTerminator somewhere.
“Why is there no evidence from biogeography to support Teh Flud?”
Because they put all their energy and money into adding to the impossibility of Duh Flud.
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Wait, are Teh Flud and Duh Flud two different things? Now I’m confused.
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Victoria
I don’t know why I can’t see the truth. Did you take the red pill or the blue pill? You sure don’t seem much for debate either sweetheart, what with all your bolding and capitalizing and what-all. Mebbe you should get back in there and tend them biscuits and leave the grown up talk to the menfolk. Is that what you are used to? Where I come from women do not attempt to instruct men in the ways of God, they sit and listen to the way that God has told the men to instruct the women.
Saltydog, you wouldn’t care if all the evidence in the world was against you (hint: it is) and your world tour with a boatload of animals. You have already said that you need it to be true to prop up the rest of your mythology. So, I understand that you have an aversion to honest discourse about the subject.
But in other news, are you saying that biologists are hiding evidence or conspiring to keep silent about evidence that would validate your personal twisting interpretation of the bibble? you mean the truth is out there but the darwinists won’t let you hear it? ORLY?
How do you know this?
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Steve (#271), I was wondering the same. I didn’t ask Erasmus because then he would have perhaps suspected that I am making up my answers. I left it ambiguous on purpose, because it works both ways.
By the way, Erasmus, before I forget again: Could it be that the reason why after all these years you have never seen “a mountain lion swimming across the indian ocean from asia to north america” (see #266) is that you are expecting too much from the average mountain lion? Where are you standing right now exactly? Give us your position and we’ll send an helicopter.
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saltydog, not only would you expect mountain lions to do this, but wooly mammoths, south american sloths, tapiaries, grizzly bears, bison, saber tooth tigers, rabbits, red squirrels, possums, armadilloes, etc etc etc. How did all this menagerie get to north america from the ark? Why aren’t their populations of these critters near Mt Ararat? Why does NZ and Australia look like it has been isolated for long enough to evolve a completely different fauna?
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SaltyDog … how do you know it’s asking too much of the mountain lion? Since you don’t believe in laws of nature to describe the strength and endurance of the mountain lion, the drag of water and wind or even the distance involved, don’t you have to say that a mountain lion could swim across the Indian Ocean?
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Erasmus — Roger how come the bible says that bats are birds?
Roger — Because bats are “birds”. The Hebrew word for “bird” is “owph”, which has a very wide lexical range to include all things that fly. All we need to do is look a little further in the context to see this.
Deuteronomy 14:11 “You may eat any clean bird. 12 “But these are the ones which you shall not eat: the eagle . . . and the hoopoe and the bat. And all the teeming life with wings are unclean to you; they shall not be eaten. You may eat any clean bird.”
The Hebrew word has a wide lexical range, which derives its specific meaning from the context. The word translated “with wings” in verse 19 is the same word translated “bird” in verse 11. A “bird” in this context is anything “with wings”, which would apply, not only to an eagle, an owl, and an hawk, but would include bats and flying insects too.
As an aside, I take note of the fact that Moses repeats the phrase “You may eat any clean bird.” In this he gives emphasis to God’s generosity.
Erasmus — How come the bible says grasshoppers walk with four legs?
Roger — I believe you refer to Leviticus 11:20. We find this verse in the body of legislation in which God declares what folks can eat and what they must not eat. Please note that although the dietary law specifically mentions various animals and birds by name, the list is not intended to be exhaustive. Instead, Moses lists them to be illustrative — examples from which to draw generalized rules. Rather than naming all the animals, birds and insects by name, which would be a very long list and impossible to remember, Moses gives a list of criteria by which to identify the foods to avoid. For instance, we read,
3 `Whatever divides a hoof, thus making split hoofs, [and] chews the cud, among the animals, that you may eat. 4 `Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you. 5 `Likewise, the shaphan, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 6 the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 7 and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you.
Moses specifies the general criteria in verse 3. He proceeds to give counter examples in order to say why these animals do not fit the criteria. The specific examples help the citizen to gain a better understanding of the general rule. I take note of the fact that Moses has divided his criteria into three or four groups which deal with creatures that live in various domains, i.e. on the earth, in the water, in the sky, etc.
Another general category talks about things that “swarm”. And this bring us to verse 20 and 21.
All the winged insects that walk on fours are detestable to you. `Yet these you may eat among all the winged insects which walk on fours: those which have above their feet jointed legs with which to jump on the earth.
The Hebrew word translated “winged” is our word from above “owph”, which has a wide lexical range to include anything that flies. The Hebrew word translated “insects”, is the word “sherets”, which is another word with a wide lexical range indicating creatures that “swarm” or “multiply rapidly.”
We see from verse 29, that the lexical range for “sherets”, not only includes insects but also includes creatures such as the mole, the mouse, and lizards of every kind.
Finally, the word translated “[all] fours” is actually an adjective in the singular form, which should be translated literally as “four”. That is, Moses hasn’t restricted his criteria to creatures that walk on four feet, the term simply refers to creatures that travel on “four”. This applies equally to creatures that have four legs, four feet, and four wings. An example of flying creatures with four wings are moths, butterflies, and other “lepidoptera.” Locusts and grasshoppers also have two pairs (four) wings.
So, tell your son that Moses was talking about flying, swarming creatures that go about on fours. Some go about on four legs, some go about on four feet, and others go about on four wings.
Erasmus — How come the bible says quail come from the sea?
Roger — I believe you refer to the account of the time God sent Quail to feed meat to the nation of Israel. Tell your son that the phrase “from the sea” is not meant to indicate a point of origin, as if the quail came out of the ocean. Rather the phrase “from the Sea” indicates a direction.
For example, in the poem “Paul Revere’s Ride”, by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Revere is said to have requested that two lamps be placed in a Boston Church tower as a signal that the British were on the march toward the city. One lamp was to be lit if the British were coming by land; and two lamps were to be lit if the British were coming by sea. In this, the watchman signals both the mode of travel, and the direction from which the British would come.
To say that the Quail came “from the Sea” is to give the direction where to look had you asked a neighbor where the quail came from and had been standing in the Israeli camp at the time of writing.
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Sorry Norm, I didn’t see your explanation before I submitted mine.
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Roger that is some pretty fantastic acrobatics you are willing to do in order to deny the simple fact that reality is not as the bible says that it is. If you have to have an understanding of hebrew and greek, how can you call this ‘revelation’?
It’s clear that your understanding of what these passages say is informed by folks who wish to add as much as possible to the words of the bible in order to make it approximate reality, and not informed by the words themselves. In order for you to make sense of what is patent nonsense, you must add to the words of scripture in plain contradiction to the multiple warnings explicitly not to do such a thing.
And this is why it is impossible for you to fabricate any creationist scenario that remains both biblical and based in reality.
But that was a nice try. If you are willing to say bats are birds, then you must also say, under the same context, airplanes are birds. Clearly they are not. Clearly the bible is wrong.
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ERASMUS,
The original documents were written in Hebrew and Greek – not English. The English translations are not without error and I doubt very many people would ever hold the view that the English translations are inerrant. Also, there are no words being added to the Bible here. Additional words are required to attempt to correctly translate the Hebrew words into English. When Roger said “anything that flies” I believe he meant any animal that flies. Clearly under the same context an airplane is not an animal with wings. Clearly the bible is not wrong.
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Erasmus — Roger that is some pretty fantastic acrobatics you are willing to do in order to deny the simple fact that reality is not as the bible says that it is. If you have to have an understanding of hebrew and greek, how can you call this ‘revelation’?
Roger — It’s called reading for understanding. I’m not suggesting that a man or woman needs to personally know Hebrew or Greek to understand the Bible. But those who read the Bible for understanding must certainly learn that the Bible is not contemporary literature. Modern readers are separated from Moses by time, culture, and language — the combination of which produce idioms, figures of speech, modes of expression, different from our own. Consequently, we find times when a return to the original languages helps clarify things.
I hope you noticed that I took your questions seriously and didn’t answer back with contempt. Though some would use these questions in a debate format in an attempt to discredit the Bible, these questions are good, legitimate questions which we all should ask for ourselves. As I was formulating my answer, I pictured your son (you mentioned him), which challenged me to be clear, straightforward, and concise.
Though I believe the Bible is revelation from God, I also accept the fact that the Bible uses human language to communicate ideas. For some reason, God wanted me to discover the truth through my interaction with a sacred text rather than putting his thoughts directly into my mind. It isn’t as if he couldn’t have done that. But it appears to me God wants me to OWN the truth for myself. And the process of Bible study seems like a good way for him to allow me to think about things deeply, which gives me wisdom along with the knowledge.
Erasmus — It’s clear that your understanding of what these passages say is informed by folks who wish to add as much as possible to the words of the bible in order to make it approximate reality, and not informed by the words themselves.
Roger — Actually, I have two responses to this. First of all, my understanding of these passages is my own, not informed by other “folks” as you called them. Secondly, I don’t think it necessarily follows that my explanation “adds” to the words of the Bible.
You should be able to verify for yourself whether the Hebrew word for “bird” has a wide lexical range or not. And since I am claiming this as a verifiable matter of fact, the opportunity to challenge that fact is now. If I have added to the words of scripture, as you suggest, the matter is easily proven.
Erasmus — And this is why it is impossible for you to fabricate any creationist scenario that remains both biblical and based in reality.
Roger — Actually, I wasn’t speaking directly to the issue of creationism or evolution. You asked some questions related to the Bible, a subject I am familiar with, and I gave direct answers to your questions.
Incidentally, there are those who study and exegete the Bible who do not actually accept the Bible as true. The art and science of exegesis is a separate issue from the truth claims of the text. When we study a text, whether it be the Bible, the Koran, or the complete works of Plato, we ask three questions: 1. what does it say? 2. what does it mean? and 3. is it true?
Investigating the text at the lexical level helps us answer the first question. Following the narrative, or the logical flow of thought helps us understand the second question. Weighing the concepts against known reality helps us answer the third question. In any case, one does not have come at the Biblical text with the a-priori assumption that it is true, in order to remain engaged with the first two questions. The process is the same regardless of whether or not we assume the text is speaking truthfully.
Erasmus — But that was a nice try. If you are willing to say bats are birds, then you must also say, under the same context, airplanes are birds. Clearly they are not.
Roger — I was hoping that putting the term “birds” in quotes would alert the reader that I had not concluded that bats were birds in the sense we sensitive-men-of-the-nineties use the term “birds”. And I hoped to be clear that the Hebrew term has a wide lexical range which would include both bats and feathered, flying creatures. I presume it would also include airplanes if these machines existed back then, just as our modern usage of the term might refer to females of the human species.
Context is king.
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If women and airplanes are birds in your bible Roger then I suppose that is that.
‘What does it mean’ is really not something that can be answered by the scientific method, right? Eventually this answer will be a personal choice. This seems to be somewhat similar to what you are saying regarding the discrepancies between culture, time, place, idiosyncratic vagaries of language, etc. If so then it seems to me that no positive argument may be made advancing the idea that these words are somehow holy or ‘divinely inspired’ or a priori ‘true’.
yet this is exactly the predicate from which creationism begins. We know it to be so because the bible tells me so. no geologist has ever looked at the world and said ‘wow, there must have been a global flood that deposited all the fossils etc etc’ without having that religious belief beforehand.
so since you are willing to put context and interpretation in the driver seat, it seems that you effectively destroy your argument from scriptural authority. If you are reduced to mere physical material facts then the case for a young earth or special creation or Teh Flud dissolves into thin air.
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Regarding the few posts above, Erasmus is, I think, on the wrong track. The best arguments against Creationism and the global Flood is that there’s exactly no evidence to support them. Only if you take the position that Scripture is inerrant no matter how much it contradicts the observed evidence — the view that if Scripture and reality conflict, it’s reality that’s wrong — can you hold to belief in those things.
Having studied the Bible for a long time, from that standpoint of both a believer and skeptic at different times in my life, I understand the linguistic issues Roger is explaining. I would put these particular inaccuracies down to (1) the author of Deuteronomy not attempting to be a taxonomist and (2) poor translation into English.
If the passage regarding the bat for example appeared in English as “these things with wings” instead of “these birds,” it would never even look like a problem.
This is not to argue in favor of Bibllical inerrancy or Creationism, neither of which I believe. It’s just to say that not every apparent problem is a real problem. Some of them do have explanations.
By the way, Roger, I have read the book. If you ever choose to accept that and retract your insistence that I haven’t, I’d appreciate your saying so. (Of course if you remain unconvinced, that’s your prerogative.)
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Steve the point of this digresssion is demonstrated amply in the conversation about No True Scotsman upthread.
Of course there are no data that support special fiat creation nor a global flood. If you examine the statements by some of our fellows here, data are irrelevant. Bible Says It, I Believes It, That Settles It is good enough for a lot of folks. Gives them more time to pick their nose or something.
I was attempting to show how ludicrous the inerrantist position is, in principle, by using a few worn-out examples. This is easy to do, but what happens as a result is the postmodern equivocation about truth and meaning. I enjoy seeing fundie fellow travelers with the loonie left.
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If you examine the statements by some of our fellows here, data are irrelevant. Bible Says It, I Believes It, That Settles It is good enough for a lot of folks. Gives them more time to pick their nose or something.
Oh I quite agree with that. As I put it, “if the Bible and reality contradict, it’s reality that’s wrong.”
There’s both a fear of learning something that might force them to seriously question their belief in an inerrant book, and also an intellectual laziness that makes believing that book easier than actually learning the science (and it is a complex science). Those two factor mix in varying proportions from individual to individual.
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ERASMUS at #274: “saltydog, not only would you expect mountain lions to do this, but wooly mammoths, south american sloths, tapiaries, grizzly bears, bison, saber tooth tigers, rabbits, red squirrels, possums, armadilloes, etc etc etc. How did all this menagerie get to north america from the ark?”
ASALTYDOG: More or less the same way you got to North America from the ark.
ERASMUS: “Why aren’t their populations of these critters near Mt Ararat?”
ASALTYDOG: According to a recent CIA investigation these critters failed to act in accordance with the Ararat Critter Regulation, which originally required that they remain near the mountain for the number of generation which was deemed adequate by the authorities to guarantee that a sufficient amount of fossils of their bodies would be found by later generations of palaeontologists so as to make it possible to prove that they (the critters) actually did occupy that space. The embittered critters apparently ignored that restriction calling it “unreasonable”, “nonsensical”, and “hilarious” and moved on with their lives. When asked on what grounds the fossilization process was considered by the authorities to be reliable enough to provide the desired number of fossils, or any fossils at all for that matter, pretty much regardless of how many generations of critters would have been forced to live near the mountain, also considering that the spokesman of the World Water Department Mr. Noah R. Kabuilder categorically denied allegations that, due to the human citizens’ perennial failure to comply with directives from the Jehovah Bureau of Ethical Supervision, he was again threatening water level adjustments of magnitudes comparable to those that helped him acquire considerable notoriety in the past, CIA inspector in chief Willy Broukwersma briefly waved his left hand, which was interpreted by most journalists present to mean that a wasp was flying too close to his ear. Other observers however have concluded from the same gesture that the trustworthiness of the sources that have alleged in the first place a suspiciously fast departure of the critters from the crucial area has been greatly exaggerated, and that in any case the controversy regarding the Ararat Critter Regulation may be a cover-up for a plan involving circular reasoning, consequent-affirming techniques, unwarranted assumptions, and strawman-building slogans, and ultimately aiming at discrediting Mr. Kabuilder and his Department.
ERASMUS: “Why does NZ and Australia look like it has been isolated for long enough to evolve a completely different fauna?”
ASALTYDOG: You are holding a map of the Moon.
STEVEG at #275: “SaltyDog … how do you know it’s asking too much of the mountain lion?” Since you don’t believe in laws of nature to describe the strength and endurance of the mountain lion, the drag of water and wind or even the distance involved, don’t you have to say that a mountain lion could swim across the Indian Ocean?”
ASALTYDOG: I don’t. First of all, just to clarify this thing to the slower readers, the mountain lion is smarter than what Erasmus gives him credit for at #248. If the mountain lion really feels he has to swim from Asia to North America, a simple glance at any map would lead him to dismiss as preposterous the idea to do it through the Indian Ocean, and he would rather choose to do that in proximity of the Seward Peninsula. And if he is a really smart mountain lion, believe me he would first visit upcominggeologicalupheavals.com and check for when the next geological upheaval is scheduled for the Bering Sea, so he doesn’t need to swim at all. Secondly, Steve, rejecting deism is not the same thing as rejecting the uniformity of nature or rejecting the formula for calculating velocity. Faith in God as the Sovereign Creator is not the same thing as rejecting scientific investigation: it is the only possible rational basis for that activity. Thirdly, you are the one who can’t afford predicting or calculating or estimating whether the mountain lion can make it. Fourthly, I have no doubt that, if needed, a man can end up walking on water, a donkey can talk, and a mountain lion can end up swimming from Pakistan to Seattle back and forth thirteen times in a row. Why, I even believe that SteveG and Erasmus can end up becoming young-earth Christian creationists.
Steve, stay in tune for a reply to your longer post. I’m quite busy, and Erasmus sort of sidetracked me (or better I couldn’t resist letting him sidetrack me), but I hope to post soon. By the way I live in Europe, so that may explain my odd timing, English is not my language, so that may explain my odd articulation, and I am a Christian, which may explain the rest. In spite of everything believe me I really enjoyed getting to know you and talking with you. Have a nice evening/morning/afternoon/whatever.
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SaltyDog at #285: Secondly, Steve, rejecting deism is not the same thing as rejecting the uniformity of nature or rejecting the formula for calculating velocity. Faith in God as the Sovereign Creator is not the same thing as rejecting scientific investigation: it is the only possible rational basis for that activity.
Among the many things I don’t understand about you, this is a big one. Why are you hung up on Deism?
I agree, and I said earlier, that most Christians believe the universe is rational and understandable because God made it to be so.
There is nothing about that that depends on Deism.
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SteveG at #286:
Why am I hung up on deism? Because you are.
It is not enough for a Christian to “believe the universe is rational and understandable because God made it to be so”, if after that he forgets (or downright denies) that God also upholds it and rules it. That’s still deism lite. Christian doctrines are not up for grabs. God is God, and you can’t change Him into someone He is not only because it would be easier for you to look smart online.
If you insist on trying to make your deism a sort of uncontroversial neutral ground which we can both affirm before we move on and build our arguments upon that premise, and if deism is a Christian heresy, what’s so surprising about me refusing to go along with you?
You see, it’s pretty pathetic for you to beg me to be less biblical (”Come on, all Christians do it!”), so that you can proceed to feather and tar me. I don’t mind being feathered and tarred, as long as I am faithful and consistent with what the Bible clearly teaches. If you can feather and tar only disobedient, inconsistent and confused Christians, that speaks volumes about the strength and value of your world view.
Check these out to get started:
In Defense of Wind Grasping
http://www.credenda.org/issues/18-4thema.php
Crimes Against Cause
http://www.credenda.org/issues/18-4patpat.php
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If you insist on trying to make your deism a sort of uncontroversial neutral ground which we can both affirm before we move on and build our arguments upon that premise, and if deism is a Christian heresy, what’s so surprising about me refusing to go along with you?
The common neutral ground I’d like us to affirm — and really it’s hard to have any sort of dialogue if the starting points are not agreed to — is that the universe behaves in observable and dependable ways.
The theological reasons we think so don’t have to match up at all, but if we’re not able to agree on that much, then there is no common ground at all.
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Interesting links. I understand the point. But you know what? When you drop a brick from the top of a tower, it falls down. It accelerates until, if it doesn’t hit the ground first, it reaches what is called terminal velocity, the fastest it will fall.
God could intervene and change that at any time. He could make it fall faster or slower or not at all or even upward.
But most of the time, he doesn’t. Most of the time, the brick behaves exactly as we expect it to.
The first link argues that we live in a universe of chaos where anything could happen at any time, and doesn’t only because God causes it all to happen as we see. Well and good. But all the same, it does happen as we see.
So while we may differ theologically over just why that is, it is. Why is this not something we can agree on?
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Saltydog
If you are going to posit a flood, I assume that you are also a young earther. It’s not worth digging through the tard upstream to see for sure. If you think all of those creatures (don’t forget the insects!!! over 100,000 beetle species to account for! what about all those aquatic insects that only live in flowing streams of water, not lakes, not oceans?) migrated to North America since 2000 BC (or take your pick of anything denying deep geological time) then you are one of my newest favorite internet buddies. It is hard to find someone who can say that sort of thing with a straight face.
You make lame jokes to avoid the fact that if we are going to assume a single point of dispersal for all animals on earth (the ark, post flood) the most reasonable model (and the most biblically accurate) would hypothesize an exponential distribution of species, with the peak highest at or near the origin.
Moon, hell, moron. If you don’t understand the geological and biogeographical evidence that Australasia has been distinctly separated from asia, you are uninformed. Now, you can cure ignorance but you can’t cure stupid. The blatant refusal to account for these obvious problems with Duh Flud models is what I expect from someone who is a science denier.
So, mountain lions are capable of judging the best route for their migration to North America? I don’t know you very well but most folks who argue for Duh Flud and the rest of the associated nonsense invariably argue that animals are automatons that follow the instinct that gods gave them. You seem to be taking a position inconsistent with the usual variety of human exceptionalism. I’m intrigued.
Seems like you are wiling to deny a young earth in order for your mountain lion story. When was the last geological upheaval? When was the first one after Duh Flud?
Anyone can say ‘omnipotent god beast can do anything, including talking donkeys or aquatic mountain lions’. the difference between creationists and the reality based community is that we value EVIDENCE. And you have nothing but waving arms.
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Saul T Dog
perhaps i was a bit hasty in calling you a moron. i should temper that observation with an acknowledgment that you might not, in fact, be the solipcist that you are pretending to be. However, if you are that knowledge denier then I freely admit I have no basis for judging you a moron. Apologies, in my haste I did not realize that this was uncharitable invective. To date. Falsify that. Or does that even matter? Or perhaps it does? Do tell.
i suppose i am wondering why, if you are going to fancy gods that allow aquatic mountain lions swimming around the tip of south america, or red squirrels flying in the troposphere and kangaroos traveling through the center of the earth or whatever explanation you can find within reach to explain why the factual scenario presented by genesis doesn’t match up with any one of thousands upon thousands of observations of the real world by people across the entire globe, including True Christians, why upon why upon why can you not fathom that since your Omnipotent Sky Beast can do anything whatsoever, imaginable or not imaginable (to your pathetic level of imaginary detail, of course, who knows what gods can imagine?), you have no reason to believe that any evidence based interpretation of reality is any different from any other. It’s all the sorcerer’s explanation in your world. The laws are just laws because the lawgiver feels like making them laws, but they aren’t really laws unless he wants them to be and if he doesn’t then they aren’t laws and don’t count on them. In your world there is no reason to believe that flushing your toilet won’t be the event necessary to bring Jesus back, or that you should brush your teeth to prevent cavities. If the bibble is the standard, then evidence be damned. Of course, O Omphalos, we could grant your sorcerer’s explanation a prior ontological status, right? Little old wedge against those dirty sinners (materialists, liberals, homos, sinners, jews, quadraplegics, poor, mexicans, trannies, lawyers, ACLU, Florida people, yankees, hillbillies, mormons, Jehovahs witnesses, democrats, Others)?
please tell me more about the scorpions and crayfish on the ark? were they on it? what about land snails? what WAS on the ark and what was not? how would you know?
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Erasmus: who knows what gods can imagine?), you have no reason to believe that any evidence based interpretation of reality is any different from any other. It’s all the sorcerer’s explanation in your world. The laws are just laws because the lawgiver feels like making them laws, but they aren’t really laws unless he wants them to be and if he doesn’t then they aren’t laws and don’t count on them. In your world there is no reason to believe that flushing your toilet won’t be the event necessary to bring Jesus back, or that you should brush your teeth to prevent cavities.
You really should take the time to read through the exchange that the seasoned canine and I had earlier. You’d be amazed how right you are.
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Steve I’m not amazed, I’ve seen this a million times. This antirealist solipcist pagan mysticism is the ultimate post modern creationist explanation for everything that is beyond their capacity to compartmentalize.
I read some of the in defense of grasping at farts and the stupid made my head burn. it’s hard to understand how one could possibly imagine some unobservable undetectable omnipotent beast, yet not have the imagination to imagine that reality exists whether or not you add the extraneous clause “because Gods Say So”. Why even bother with all of that? Sure you can always divide by one. What does that explain?
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Erasmus and SteveG: Run out of steam? Only 293 posts? Since I made the first post, I’ll see if this can be the last. It’s amazing that the truth of the bible is discarded based on disputes about a relatively small portion, such as bats as birds or the intrepretation of the creation account.
But of course, even the New Testament accounts – particularly the Gospels, are disputed even though textual accuracy and archeological confirmation – not to mention the change in the course of western history – die at the hands of scholarly conjectures. Amazing.
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Erasmus — I was attempting to show how ludicrous the inerrantist position is, in principle, by using a few worn-out examples.
Roger — That may have been your intent, but what you demonstrated to me was you lack of interest in the evidence.
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Roger, we are still waiting for your ‘evidence’. Weren’t you the one talking about the Royal Society basement?
anyway the evidence that you presented indicates that when the bible says ‘bird’, we dont know if the author is talking about a bat, a pterodactyl, a flying squirrel, a ladybug, a Boeing 747, or your grandmaw in a hang glider.
Now, I am very interested in that. It proves my point exactly. In order for you to resolve this problem you prostrate yourself on the postmodern altar of equivocation and ‘kinds of truth’.
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Norm, yeah the Romans changed absolutely everything, if that’s what you mean. If you say the bible did that is a much more contentious claim and certainly not one that you can convincingly demonstrate. autocorrelation and all that historical science stuff.
There is nothing new or unique about the christianist myth, it for all the world looks like a cobbling together of regional superstitions and perhaps some pre-machiavellian legal philosophy.
If your jesus believed that genesis was a factual account of creation and Duh Flud, then it is clear to any impartial observer that he was wrong, and very likely not omniscient. Since you need the manbeast-godbeast dualism for your contrived theology, this is indeed a quandary that just shrugging your shoulders and saying the New Testament the New Testament doesn’t save your position.
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Norm P. at #294: As you can see, Erasmus, Roger and I have conspired to ensure that your post is not the last one.
It’s amazing that the truth of the bible is discarded based on disputes about a relatively small portion, such as bats as birds or the intrepretation of the creation account.
The demonstrated falsity of the Creation account is enough to demolish the insistence that the entire Bible is true, literal and inerrant. It does not invalidate the whole Bible. It does not even invalidate a non-literal reading of the Creation account. But it does invalidate the literalist/fundamentalist approach.
My personal feeling is that approaching the Bible as being not necessarily literal in at least some places makes it a richer experience, but literalists might not agree with that.
Pause for a moment to reflect on the idea that the Bible is “God’s revelation.”
In the first place, to be a revelation, it has to be the revealing of something that could not be ascertained by observation. Much of the Bible does not even try to be that. Accounts of what men and women did are just history (whether or not it’s accurate history is a different question, but stories about the doings of Saul or David or Solomon or Paul don’t depend on divine revelation.) So the bulk of the Bible isn’t revelatory at all. Only those places that claim to be about things God says are dependent on information that comes through revelation rather than observation.
Secondly, a revelation is only an actual revelation to the person who receives it. Anyone who hears an account of the revelation is getting hearsay. If God speaks to me, only I actually know what He said. I could tell you, and you’ll have to decide whether you trust me to be accurate and honest. You didn’t get the revelation, you got my story about it. And if you then tell someone else, they have your second-hand account of my first-hand account of an experience that only I had.
And if that person writes it down and a few thousand years from now someone reads it, they have a written record of a third-hand retelling of an experience a different person had.
So far from being a revelation of God, the Bible is at best a mixture of stories people told about what they believed or claimed to be revelations, and stories about what people did.
Biblical literalists/inerrantists will insist that the Holy Spirit made sure the words were preserved correctly and as God intended. That’s a faith statement with no external evidence, and in fact, evidence against.
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Salty Dog at #285: Steve, stay in tune for a reply to your longer post.
Still tuned.
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Steve, it’s coming.
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Why don’t you strap it on the back of a starfish and see how long it takes it to migrate over here to us.
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SteveG at #265
Hello Steve, I hope you doing fine. Here’s a short reply to your latest message.
Older posts are grouped with dividing lines to get some history and context. In each group my latest reply begins with a bold-faced ASALTYDOG.
Note that after this message you will find also another message, my reply to your #289, don’t miss it! I recommend you read this one first.
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ASALTYDOG: How do you account for such uniformity of nature? Have you tested all the eggs of the world? How do you know that tomorrow the eggs will continue to become solid?
STEVEG: This is a theme you return to often. Because I can’t demonstrate that it happens 100 percent of the time past and present and will continue to in the future, it’s ok to discount it. Well, the first time you drop something while standing on the Earth and it doesn’t fall, let us know. Most reasonable people would agree the law of gravity has been quite well established, which shifts the burden of proof to the challenger to show why it isn’t.
ASALTYDOG: The questions I am asking go unanswered. And no, my point is not that “Because you can’t demonstrate, . . . it’s ok to discount it”. My point is, “Because you can’t demonstrate, . . . how do you know it’s true – that is, how do you know it’s true that the eggs are subject to a law?” Once you have established that the behavior of the eggs is subject to a law, it makes sense to predict the behavior the next egg. But how do you establish that the behavior of the eggs is subject to a law? That is my question.
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STEVEG: Why do you assume that tomorrow you might drop your keys and see them hover in mid-air rather than falling?
ASALTYDOG: Because I am not a deist. I am a Christian.
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ASALTYDOG: “You admitted that of course if I bring God into this debate, then homologies can’t be said to be necessary proof of common descent. But you complained that then God can be seen *everywhere*. I answered that this precisely is the position you want to attack. So quit complaining about what your opponents actually believe, quit misrepresenting them, and deal with their arguments.”
STEVEG: “Take your own advice. That is not the position I am talking about at all. Someone who believes the universe has no operating principles at all, just the individual and deliberate actions of God who just happens to prefer to make the same decisions every time except those few times when makes an exception, are beyond the reach of logic and science.”
ASALTYDOG: On the contrary, Steve: that is the only possible foundation for science. It is your position that makes science impossible. And you still can’t use homologies as evidence of common descent.
STEVEG: It is the fact that nature operates in observable and predictable ways that makes science possible.
ASALTYDOG: Correct. But how do you know that that is a fact? Given your world view, how do you know it?
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STEVEG: Whether nature operates that way because God designed it to do so or because it just does is irrelevant to that issue. It does.
ASALTYDOG: Does it? How do you know? Don’t say that nature operates in observable and predictable ways only because Christians say so. You have to show that it is the case from your world view. Christians are morons and liars, remember?
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STEVEG: If a day comes when suddenly things don’t behave they way they’ve always been seen to before, then we’ll have a problem. Until, and unless, such a day comes, the universe continues to operate in observable and predictable ways.
ASALTYDOG: Predictable? Why do you assume that the universe will continue to behave like it did in the past? And have you tested all the ways in which the universe operated in the past?
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STEVEG: Homologies are strong evidence of common descent, to a scientist seeking to understand the natural forces that shape life on Earth. If you want to insist that magical God COULD have just things that look similar, well, ok, but where is your evidence that God DID do this, or for that matter, that God even exists?
ASALTYDOG: You have never explained how homologies can be evidence for common descent, in the light of the competing creationist claim of common design and in the light of the uncontested concept of convergent evolution. But YOU ACTUALLY CONCEDE HERE THAT THE ARGUMENT FROM HOMOLOGIES IS FLAWED! so kudos to you. It was a long time coming but worth the wait. I hope I never hear again from you this argument for common descent, and that you on the contrary join creationists in pointing out to evolutionists that the argument is invalid. My next question for you is, if not due to homologies, on what grounds do you believe in evolution?
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STEVEG: . . . where is your evidence that God DID do this, or for that matter, that God even exists? You are quick to accuse others of logic errors and don’t recognize your own question begging?
ASALTYDOG: Genesis chapter 1 for instance. Plus it is impossible that God does not exist. The God of the Bible exists necessarily. And furthermore, you are not an atheist, are you? Didn’t you say you believe some God may well exist? But if so, why doesn’t THAT prove to you that the evolutionistic argument from homologies is flawed? As a theist, how could you have bought that as evidence for evolution? There is no need for me to come along with my biblical creationism in order to make you reconsider the argument from homologies. Your own world view includes the possibility of a God. And with the possibility of a God comes the possibility of intelligent design to explain the homologies in nature. Before you conceded my point, your only objection to my argument was that I can’t prove God exists. That is, you implicitly admitted (as you eventually admitted also explicitly) that to allow the possibility of a God in the picture destroys that particular piece of evidence for evolution. But why did you object about the possibility of a God? You claimed to believe in the possibility of a God. Only a pure atheist can speak like you do in these paragraphs. But you are not an atheist, are you?
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STEVEG: “If the universe does not operate under predictable rules, then there is no way we can ever really know anything about it.”
ASALTYDOG: That’s exactly your problem. How do you know that the universe operates under predictable rules? Because if you can’t know that, as you admit, there is no way you can have science. Given your world view, then, how do you account for the predictability of nature?
STEVEG: I believe nature is predictable because God designed it to be predictable. I do not believe that God has to take proactive action in order for the planet to keep rotating or for my keys to fall, which you keep insisting he does.
ASALTYDOG: God, eh? How do you know that God designed nature to be predictable? On what grounds do you deny that God has to take proactive action in order for the planet to keep rotating or for your keys to fall? How do you know there is a God?
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STEVEG: “God COULD have created you yesterday and also created a brainful of false memories for you to give you the illusion that you’ve lived for however many years you’ve been around. No way to prove that didn’t happen, but also absolutely no reason to think it did.”
ASALTYDOG: If God did what you suggest I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, therefore God did not create me yesterday. No way to prove it? There, I proved it. And again, nobody believes in the God you envision. The God of the Bible is not a covenant-breaking idol, so quit building strawgods.
STEVEG: Stating your theological belief proves nothing except that it’s what you believe. You did this in the other post as well. Prove that God didn’t create you yesterday with false memories of your past and a false belief about whether you are still in your sins.
ASALTYDOG: What have you done so far to prove that there are natural laws except stating your belief that they are there? As for God possibly creating a brain full of false memories, you may just as well ask, “What if God lies about being the Creator of the world?” This kind of objection boils down to simply asking me why I believe what He says. How do I know that God won’t act out of character? Because He said He will not. How do I know that He is the Creator of the world? Because He said so. You may refuse to believe Him. But that is not an objection to my world view. You have shown no internal inconsistencies or absurdities in God’s Word. Like Satan talking to Eve, you have merely asked me why I don’t reject His Word. My answer is, “Because the Lord my God has been good to me. Because I have an obligation to believe the Word of my Creator. Because I have no reason to doubt His Word. Because rejecting His Word would make no sense whatsoever. Because it would be such an evil thing to do.”
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STEVEG: “This is not the position I’m discussing because there is simply no point in debating a person who believes that way. No matter how much evidence I could present to you, you would shrug off with “God did it that way,” and what can I say to that? Nothing, really. So why bother?”
ASALTYDOG: This is vintage whining-SteveG at his best. “I can debate anybody, really, and I can demonstrate evolution to anybody, except to someone who doesn’t believe it. I’m really good at proving Genesis wrong, except if I meet someone who believes it. Why can’t you Christians pretend there’s no God for a minute?” Hilarious.
STEVEG: You assume the existence of a God you can’t prove and then assert that the belief is evidence against science. There is not much to say to someone with such an evidence-free conviction of things.
ASALTYDOG: You are begging the question. You are saying that evolution must be true, because the alternative, that there is a God, is not proved. I could say (and in fact I do say) the same thing about you: “Creation must be true, because your alternative, that evolution has happened, is not proved; you assume the existence of an evolution you can’t prove and then assert that that belief is evidence against creationism.” Now what?
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STEVEG: I never said I could “demonstrate” evolution to “anyone.” The person has to be at least willing to consider the possibility. I can’t prove Genesis wrong to someone who sticks his fingers in his ears and chants “lalala” rather than consider the possibility.
ASALTYDOG: Here I am, considering that possibility since several days now. I have been listening to you very carefully. How did you get the impression I have not? Why the whining? What is upsetting you? That I ask you questions? That I investigate about your world view? That I check whether your position makes internal sense? Do you want me to remove my brain and be converted in spite of my doubts, and against my conscience?
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ASALTYDOG: Rest assured that I belong precisely to the group of people who believe that the scientific evidence supports Biblical Creationism. Rest assured that you are really “engaging” my position. And for someone who compared me to a drug addict, your complaining now that my word “attack” was hostile and unfriendly makes you sound like you are stuck exactly in the middle between hysteria and hypocrisy.
STEVEG: A theological assertion that you are not in your sins is not evidence of any kind, Dog, let alone scientific. So far you have shown no scientific evidence. You have asked weird questions, pumped out a lot of words that boil down to how I can’t *prove* the real world is real so it’s ok to assume it’s not, and a variety of other oddities that are both amusing and frustrating. But no evidence so far.
ASALTYDOG: You asked for evidence, I gave it to you. I gave the Bible and the whole universe, all this and heaven too, as evidence for my position. “Scientific” evidence? I did give you evidence I call scientific, but you will deny that it is scientific. You will define the word “scientific” in such a way that my evidence is not scientific by definition — much like a dictator defines the word “citizen” to mean people of his country who don’t rebel against his will, so he can boast that in his country no citizen is being tortured or jailed. Or like those who define “human being” in such a way that killing an unborn child is not murder by definition. What you really mean is evidence you will find satisfactory. That is so naive, Steve. There are no brute facts, only interpreted facts. Things that are persuasive when seen through a set of presuppositional glasses will lose their cogency when seen through other glasses, and vice versa. It’s not like if you could only understand, then you would believe. It’s the other way around. If you don’t believe, you will not understand. Believe, and you will understand. And look, this is not a peculiarity of my position. Not at all. Your frustration about my unwillingness to consider the feasibility of your view is this same thing, only seen from your perspective. If I became an evolutionist, I would find your evidence persuasive, wouldn’t I? And I would dismiss creationism as wishful thinking and fairy tales, wouldn’t I? But I believe in God: I find the evidence for creationism overwhelming, while the evidence for evolutionism sounds to me so desperately flimsy and unconvincing as to defy belief.
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STEVEG: “How many of your fellow Christians have come to your aid, Dog, to say yes, we do believe there are no natural laws? Zero, by my count. Are you sure you are such a traditional Christian?”
ASALTYDOG: Rest assured I am in very good company. To my aid? For what? For replying to you? By the way I think they are doing such a fine job that they don’t need me to come to their aid either.
STEVEG: Perhaps to agree that Christians believe keys might not always fall to the ground when dropped because God has to decide to catch them and put them on the ground every time? My impression is that is really cracked idea that Christians other than you would agree is cracked.
ASALTYDOG: Please don’t misrepresent my position. I have no idea why this bothers you. As a rule I am not intervening in other discussions to say that I agree with another fellow Christian, unless perhaps if I think he needs some help I can provide (this was the reason why I entered this forum in the first place). I suppose that’s the attitude of most people. I am far more tempted to intervene in order to disagree with a Christian who in my view is making a fool of himself or is disgracing Jesus Christ and the Church. So the fact nobody came here to say he agrees with me may well be evidence nobody thinks I am even remotely in difficulty in this discussion with you — which does not surprise me in the least. You should consider far more interesting and relevant the fact that no Christian came here to disagree with me. That may surprise you, but I am not surprised about that either. Why any Christian would want to reject the biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God over nature and support deism instead is beyond me, and I am happy to notice that in fact no Christian in this forum has done that. I repeat what I said before: that I am in good company, that this is the classical Christian position, and that nothing is more amusing here than your bafflement as to why I reject a position that was dismissed by the Church as a damnable heresy centuries ago.
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STEVEG: “Do we agree that the universe works, for the most part, by understandable and predictable natural laws (even if we don’t necessarily fully understand all of them?)”
ASALTYDOG: “I have no idea from what pocket you have drawn these natural laws, but of course it must be a trick. I deny your concept of natural laws. I do believe that as a rule God faithfully does things in predictable ways. On what grounds do you believe there are such things as natural laws?”
STEVEG: “On the grounds that when I drop my keys in the parking lot, they never hang in midair. They always fall. But as I said at the top, perhaps we’re talking about the same thing using different vocabularies.”
ASALTYDOG: That’s not the same thing as showing that there are natural laws. You have not seen any natural law walking loose in your parking lot, trust me. You have only seen some keys dropping a few times. Will the keys fall the next time you drop them?
STEVEG: If they don’t, I’ll have to revise my understanding of how things work. I’ll let you know if that happens.
ASALTYDOG: You understand what I am asking. You know you have no answer. You pretend you didn’t hear. You talk about the weather.
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STEVEG: Have you seen God reaching out to grab your keys? How do you know that’s what happens? Or I should say, without resorting to restating your unprovable theological belief, what *physical* evidence do you have?
ASALTYDOG: I know that’s what happens because I believe what He says about Himself and about his dealings with the world. I have not seen the risen, physical Jesus either. Believing the Word of God is the way I know these things. And when I believe Him, I understand the world. Now it’s my turn. Have you seen the laws of nature reaching out to grab your keys? How do you know that’s what happens? Or I should say, without resorting to restating your unprovable theological belief, what *physical* evidence do you have, Steve?
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STEVEG: You drop your keys, they fall. I say, gravity. You say, God. How do you know you’re right?
ASALTYDOG: Because God can’t lie.
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ASALTYDOG: “Sorry, no neutral nor common ground here either. I don’t believe there are any natural laws governing tree growth. I do believe God makes trees grow. How do you know there are natural laws governing tree growth?”
STEVEG: “I was mistaken, you’re right …. we do have no common ground. Unless you are playing some elaborate practical joke, which I really hope is the case.”
ASALTYDOG: Knock, knock. Anybody home? I ask questions, I get no answers.
STEVEG: I answered. We see trees behaving the same way every time we observe them. We have no reason to think they behave any differently when not being observed. Ergo, that’s the way trees respond to seasonal changes. It’s their nature.
ASALTYDOG: But all you have tested is a bunch of trees. Even all the scientists in the world have tested only a bunch of trees. See that tree over there, the one near the bridge? Does it have an obligation to behave like the trees that have been tested? How do you know that the nature of that tree over there is to have a certain predictable response to seasonal changes?
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STEVEG: If you can’t accept that answer because you insist on believing God has to decide to make it happen every spring, then you go right ahead.
ASALTYDOG: That is not my concern now at all. My concern now is trying to understand your world view, and see if it makes any sense. It’s your mystical talk about strange, occult natural laws and odd, inexplicable predictions about trees and rocks and keys that worries me. It all makes your world view sound more and more like something that might originate from the mind of a drunken shaman, or a seedy fortune teller. And by the way God is there making it happen every day, not every spring. Can’t you see that trees grow every day a little bit?
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ASALTYDOG: “The true God is a covenant-keeping God, who promises continuity and uniformity in nature, and whose Word is sure and trustable.”
STEVEG: “Which would imply that God has established laws by which the Creation operates, except in those cases where He chooses to suspend the normal order of things and do something different. So you do believe in natural laws, you just refuse to call them by that name? You continue to be a conundrum.”
ASALTYDOG: No. That’s still the lie of deism. God is not contemplating from a distance how an engine (or a law) works. There are no laws of nature. There’s nothing impersonal in how nature works. Christ makes it rain. He makes trees grow. He makes the water boil. He keeps the moon rotating around the earth. He commands the wind and it obeys him. He makes your keys drop.
STEVEG: It is true that one the general tenets of Deism is that God does not, as a rule, actively intervene in workings of the universe. The “absentee landlord” idea. (This is a general tenet, not a universally-held one, but I agree it is a common one.) Have you seen Christ doing these things? Or have you just seen them happen and believe it is Christ doing it?
ASALTYDOG: I already said that this is not necessarily the way a man knows things. I know that Christ does these things because that’s what He says He does, and I believe Him. Now my turn. Have you seen the laws of nature doing these things? Or have you just seen them happen and believe it is the laws of nature doing it?
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STEVEG: I think most Christians, while believing in a God who intervenes more personally and more often than a Deist does, would not insist that only direct and proactive action of God is what makes anything happen at all.
ASALTYDOG: Here you go again, hoping I would believe something else from what I say I believe, hoping the Bible would teach something different from what it teaches, and hoping the position you are engaging was easier to engage. If there are Christians out there who bought deistic premises, too bad for them. I can only speak for myself, and hopefully, for what Christians have traditionally believed. If your argumentation is ineffective against traditional Christianity, and you freely confess you’d rather go and preach to the choir, that speaks volumes about the inner strength of your position.
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STEVEG: Laws of nature simply describe things that happen – “a body at rest tends to remain at rest” for example, just means that if a ball is sitting motionless on the sidewalk, it’s going to stay motionless until some outside force … a person, the wind or something … causes it to move. One need not insist that Christ keeps his hand on the ball to hold it still until that happens, and I doubt you will find many Christians who think you do.
ASALTYDOG: More wishful thinking. And even if you were right about the numbers, you are still merely conceding that your world view is not on the same league with classical Christianity. If you are just thinking loud, and you are now contemplating abandoning this career in order to go and preach to the choir, or in order perhaps to enter some propaganda agency with limited feedback from the target audience, I can’t stop you, but I do wonder why you don’t join us. You do have talents for debating, but you are using them to support a lost cause. I say this sincerely, this is not mockery. Come to Jesus Christ, we have a job for you.
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STEVEG: I assume the question you believe I didn’t answer is, “If so, why are they [homologies] necessarily evidence of common descent?” Who said they are “necessarily”so? You want to believe God instantly created them and some just happen to look like others. Go right ahead.
ASALTYDOG: Once again, in case we didn’t get it the first time, YOU CONCEDE that homologies are not necessary evidence for evolution.
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STEVEG: This is a frustrating discussion to have because we do not start with any common ground. You cannot prove that aliens from another world didn’t import animals from other planets to populate the Earth.
ASALTYDOG: I would say there is no neutral ground whatever between us. Glad to see it is dawning on you. But common ground, yes, I think. You live in God’s world, and you are made in His image, so you can’t really completely flee from Him. Nobody here is making that claim about aliens. If someone does, I’ll go and talk to him.
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STEVEG: Once you move into the territory of asking “Well couldn’t it really be X, if we assume that every piece of physical evidence we have and everything we think we know about how the universe works is wrong?” Well, yes, but that’s so completely divorced from reality as to be useless.
ASALTYDOG: That’s not at all the assumption I am making. That’s not at all what I have argued.
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STEVEG: “Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof.”
ASALTYDOG: “This is not how you speak when not challenged in this way. Or aren’t you the same guy who wrote, “Science DOES contradict [biblical revelation], and it HAS been proven false.” (. . . ) How does not-proving common descent prove the Bible wrong? If not common descent, what proved the Bible wrong?
STEVEG: What proves Genesis wrong (unless reality isn’t real) is that there is ample evidence for an old Earth and universe, lifeforms that didn’t live at the same time and in fact were separated by billions of years in some cases, and a few books’ worth of other points.
ASALTYDOG: Prove all that then. Pay close attention to your logic here. You grant that common descent can’t be proved, and you concede that it is therefore not common descent that proves the Bible wrong. You have conceded the same thing about homologies. I ask you, what is it then that does prove the Bible wrong? In reply you restate your belief that the Bible is proved wrong, and you make a list of pieces of “EVIDENCE” for this and that. What I ask now is this. Is all this other “evidence” just like the “common descent” or “homologies” type of evidence? Because if it is, it is headed fast for the same garbage bin as the other two types. If it’s evidence that can’t be proved, you have already admitted that it’s not the kind of evidence that proves the Bible wrong. Therefore I ask again, PROVE IT. Or if you prefer, the garbage bin is right over there.
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STEVEG: Much of this same evidence strongly supports evolution through common descent but, it is conceivable that in the future, further discoveries could lead to changes. But what we already know is enough to say that Genesis’s story of Creation is not literally true.
ASALTYDOG: Nonsense. What is it that we “already know” that is “enough” to say that Genesis is “not literally true”? All I have heard from you so far is a growing list of concessions that it isn’t the homologies thing, and it isn’t the common descent thing either. So what is it? And tell me, I pray, why didn’t you write, “What we know for the moment is enough to say that Genesis’s story of Creation is not literally true, but, it is conceivable that in the future, further discoveries could lead to changes”? Why is it conceivable that, due to “further discoveries”, what we now know about “evolution through common descent” could go through “changes” in the future, in spite of its being today “strongly” supported by “much evidence”, but “what we already know now is enough to say” that Genesis is “not literally true”? Why is evidence (even “strong” evidence) for certain aspects of evolution is always open to falsification, but evidence against creation is water proof?
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ASALTYDOG: You prove to me now that human beings did not all speak the same language. You prove to me now the global flood did not occur. You are the one making the assertion here, not I. “Biblical revelation has been proved false.” “Science does contradict biblical revelation.” And on top of that, how can you be sure I’ll see my own reflection on the mirror?
STEVEG: As you well know (or should being as you are an expert on logic) negatives can’t be proved. This part of the communications problem in fact, as you are challenging me to “prove” God didn’t poof everything into existence.
ASALTYDOG: So if the Bible can’t be proved wrong, and if it wasn’t proved wrong, and if it isn’t prove wrong, and if you didn’t prove it wrong, and if nobody proved it wrong, would you please quit saying that the Bible was proved wrong?
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STEVEG: That a flood occurred or that all humans spoke the same language until Babel are positive claims. The burden of proof is on you.
ASALTYDOG: Here you sound like someone who was walking by, overheard the last two sentences of a discussion between friends, and thought it was a smart idea to stop and scold one of the two friends, without having much of a clue about what was going on. Reread this section of the discussion, and you will see that it was you who had the burden of proof here, not I.
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ASALTYDOG: “If you can [prove common descent], isn’t that unscientific? And if you cannot, what’s wrong with being a creationist?”
STEVEG: “You are free to believe whatever you want to.”
ASALTYDOG: In other words you concede here that you can’t prove common descent. But you didn’t come to this forum to announce that you can’t prove common descent, that homologies aren’t evidence for common descent, and that creationists are free to believe whatever they want. No, you came to this forum to announce that “creationists really aren’t interested in the truth” and “refuse to acknowledge the observed facts of the real world” since “they deny a well-supported scientific theory”, and believe instead a view which “science DOES contradict”, which actually “contradicts what we see with our own eyes”, which therefore “HAS been proven false”, and which “should not be acceptable to anyone”, because “science trumps ancient myth, yes”, which means that “AIG and the ICR are rightly maligned” because “they spread misinformation and confusion about what the facts are”, and indeed “they represent about as blatant a case of ‘lying for Jesus’ as there is”, which in turns upsets you because “it is frustrating trying to talk about science and facts with people who avowedly are unwilling to even consider the possibility that they might be mistaken” (all emphasis yours).
STEVEG: Right. I can’t make you not believe what you do. You are free to believe it. I am free to not believe it. Why is this a problem for you? Here you seem to be gravely personally offended,
ASALTYDOG: You miss the point. You concede that common descent can’t be proved and that homologies are not necessary evidence of evolution either. You also affirm that it’s okay for creationists to believe what they want. If so, are you the same SteveG who writes elsewhere in this forum? And if you just changed your mind about these things, there will be expectations that you will talk differently from now on.
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STEVEG: “People who prefer to believe in sudden miraculous Creation probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 100 million years, and probably not even then.”
ASALTYDOG: “Cheap shot. Watch this: “People who prefer to believe in evolution probably would not be convinced unless they could see a movie of the past 6000 years, and probably not even then.”
STEVEG: “what’s cheap about it? Your converse is also true.”
ASALTYDOG: My point exactly. Cheap shot.
STEVEG: Cheap because it’s true? Hmm.
ASALTYDOG: Isn’t “cheap” the right word? English is not my language. Trivial, superficial, unprovable, idle talk.
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STEVEG: “(. . .) You start with what you can observe, without drawing any predetermined assumptions about what the conclusion is, and you go from there.” ”
ASALTYDOG: “Yeah, right. When have you seen natural laws the last time?”
STEVEG: “Just now. I press keys on my keyboard and they cause the desired letters and words to appear on my screen. They do this because of known principles about physics and electronics, not because God is making the words appear.”
ASALTYDOG: Prove it. Rest assured you haven’t seen — ever — any natural law. You have seen only letters appear on your screen.
STEVEG: Nor have you seen Jesus make the rain fall. You just see the rain fall. How is that position better?
ASALTYDOG: You don’t follow the argument. You said you “start with what you can observe”. I asked you when have you observed natural laws. You said “Just now. I press keys . . . words appear. . . They do this because of known principles about physics and electronics, not because God is making the words appear.” I said, prove that words appear on the screen because of known principles and not because of God. You refuse to prove that assertion. I also tell you that you have never observed natural laws, you have only observed words that appeared on the screen. You tell me I have never seen Jesus make the rain fall either: I have only seen the rain fall, so how is my position better than yours? The reason why this comment is irrelevant is that I am not the one who at the beginning made the claim about starting “with what you can observe.” It is true I have never seen Jesus make the rain fall, but I am not claiming that I start “with what you can observe.” My knowledge that Jesus makes the rain fall is not based on raw observation but on faith in His Word. This is why my position “is better” than yours.
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ASALTYDOG: And the formulas and diagrams you have in mind may describe (tentatively) how things work, not the reason. Nor can the formulas and diagrams tell you in advance what will happen the next time you press a key.
STEVEG: The formulas and diagrams CAN tell me in advance what will happen next time. That’s the very definition of science, a theory that makes correct predictions. I press the P key and a P appears. I now predict that the next time I use that key the same thing will occur: P. If I have a formula that tells me P will appear but a B appears instead, then something is wrong with either my formula or my machine.
ASALTYDOG: You don’t understand. The formulas are only a description of what some keys have done in the past. Given your world view, what obligation do the keys have to keep on behaving in the same way? What obligation do the untested keys have to imitate their colleagues? What guarantee do you have that they will? You assume continuity and uniformity of nature. On what grounds do you make that assumption? Why should the universe continue to behave like it has done so far? And you haven’t even tested all the keys in the building, let alone all the keys in the world. Yes, the formulas CAN tell you in advance what will happen next time. BUT ONLY IF YOU HAVE FIRST ESTABLISHED THE UNIFORMITY OF NATURE. Given your world view, how do you do that? Yes, that’s science. How do you justify science?
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STEVEG: “Belief in God is beyond the purview of science. There may well be a God who is the ultimate source of everything. As a Deist, that happens to be what I believe. But science is limited to what the natural laws can explain, and proceeds with the principle that what can be explained by natural processes is explained by natural processes, and what can’t be is subject to further study.”
ASALTYDOG: “Wow. And tell me, how does science get to know what the natural laws are in order to get the whole thing started?”
STEVEG: “Observation. Measurement. Testing. Repeating. If something happens the same way every time when the same conditions apply, you have found a natural law.”
ASALTYDOG: I have? In your scenario, at what point do you quit repeating the test and call it a law? How do you know that testing one more time wouldn’t give a different result? How can you ever reach certainty that your keys will always fall to the ground if dropped? To say that they always fell in the past does not prove that they will always continue to fall.
STEVEG: It gives you very good reason to expect that they will and also to be surprised if they don’t.
ASALTYDOG: Yes, if you have first established the uniformity of nature. How do you establish it?
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STEVEG: As I said, let us know when that happens. To say the fact that just because every object in the history of the world that has been dropped has fallen doesn’t have any bearing on whether the next one will is incoherent.
ASALTYDOG: No, it is incoherent to say it does, unless you have first established that it must.
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ASALTYDOG: So in short how does “law” in your vocabulary differ from “fallible, unsubstantiated, unjustified, completely irrational generalization”?
STEVEG: Umm .. by being none of those things. How do you justify making that really astonishing claim?
ASALTYDOG: You want to have law of nature, but you can’t afford them. What you really have is fallible, unsubstantiated, unjustified, completely irrational generalizations.
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ASALTYDOG: So why aren’t you a Christian?
STEVEG: Too many kooks.
ASALTYDOG: If it helps, I promise I’ll be in Rwanda while you get baptized.
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STEVEG: “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.”
ASALTYDOG: “Yeah, right. And falls right into the logical fallacy I mentioned above. If a, then b; b, therefore a.”
STEVEG: “If the ground is wet, something made it wet. If something made it wet, then it is wet. Where is the fallacy?”
ASALTYDOG: “Steve, you need to study basic concepts in logic, fast.”
STEVEG: (. . .) And as I said, I didn’t commit that particular error [of affirming the consequent]. I said a specific effect has a cause of some sort. I did not say it must be a single specific cause, when in fact other causes are possible, which is what the error means.
ASALTYDOG: You don’t follow the flow of the discussion. You didn’t commit the fallacy in the story about rain. I said that SCIENCE commits that fallacy IF and WHENEVER it argues like you say at the beginning here (and science does that very often): “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” That, believe it or not, is affirming the consequent.
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STEVEG: “Even the most ardent evolutionary theorist would agree this is an inference. It is the most likely inference. It is supported by a host of other evidence beyond the geological distribution. But yes, if God wanted to distribute the fossils through the geological strata in a way that just makes it look like evolution is the best explanation — to trick us I guess so we won’t get saved and make heaven overcrowded — then nobody can prove that’s not what happened. So please, do go on believing in Creationism, your best evidence being “well nobody can prove it didn’t happen that way.”
ASALTYDOG: Sorry, but that is not the most likely inference. That may be the most likely inference if the theory of evolution is correct. If biblical creationism is correct, that is by no means the most likely inference. First you choose a world view, and then on the host of assumptions such a preference entails you decide which inferences are most likely. Your gathering a “host of other inference” does not impress me in the least since it is based on the assumption that the theory of evolution is true.
STEVEG: But you are not assuming Creationism is true? Pull the other one.
ASALTYDOG: Yes, I am assuming creationism is true, of course. My point is that your world view always inspects whatever evidence is brought to your attention to see if it carries weapons that may endanger your most cherished beliefs. Evidence is never seen as raw facts, but it is always interpreted on the basis of your world view. And the more self-conscious you are in your world view, the more you will interpret the new evidence in a way that doesn’t disturb your world view at large. You will beat some evidence to pulp if necessary, until it surrenders, so that after the treatment, the “evidence” says what you allow it to say and no more. Some peripheral parts of your world view you will label as negotiable, but there will be a core of beliefs that you will not give up, not over your dead body, no matter what the TV will say tomorrow.
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ASALTYDOG: If you think facts speak for themselves, and that it is possible to objectively gather, in the abstract, the most likely inferences, period, on such a topic as the prehistory of the world, which is not open to direct investigation, you have the epistemological sophistication of a wet sock. Finally, you certainly haven’t even come close to “proving it didn’t happen that way” (and your original boastful claim, which you were forced to eat, was that it is a fact that science has proved the Bible wrong)
STEVEG: Don’t be too proud of yourself, Mr. Spock. I didn’t, and don’t, concede that point.
ASALTYDOG: So you didn’t, and don’t, concede that science has not proved the Bible wrong, eh? In other words, you affirm, and have always affirmed, that science has proved the Bible wrong, correct? So what did you mean when you said, “Science deals in probability, not proof”? Now tell us your definition of “not”, Mr. Clinton! And if your current version is “does prove”, what proves the Bible wrong? You already conceded above that it’s not homologies and it’s not common descent. If not they, what proves the Bible wrong?
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ASALTYDOG: But please don’t come and tell me what my claims are. My claim is not that the evidence for believing in the Bible is simply negative (you can’t prove it wrong), although it is also that. I already told you that everything is evidence of the truth of the Bible.
STEVEG: You did, but that’s ridiculous. Everything that exists is evidence only that it exists. It is not in any way evidence of how it came to exist.
ASALTYDOG: Now that’s definitely NOT something you are in the habit of saying when you talk about, I don’t know, evolution? And if you really believe that everything that exists is evidence only that it exists, how do you square that with your view that those 284 car keys there in your parking lot are evidence that there is a law of nature hidden somewhere, possibly under the car?
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ASALTYDOG: (. . . ) Everything is evidence for the truth of the Bible (. . . )
STEVEG: You say that as if you think you’ve said something clever. You have not. You’re just running in a circle (“God made it … because it exists … because God made it”) and then relentlessly mocking people who are not impressed.
ASALTYDOG: Steve, you say that as if you think you’ve said something clever. You have not. I have not argued anything. I simply clarified what my claim is.
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STEVEG: The rest of the post was already responded to in #240.
ASALTYDOG: I know, but did you miss my response to that? You may check above, I replied already almost immediately in #248. And you never replied to that. For your convenience, here it is again, my reply to your #240:
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STEVEG at #240: “First, I didn’t call you a drug addict. I asked whether you had, earlier in your life, used a lot of hallucigenic drugs. I was (and still am) rather perplexed at the denial of natural laws (although I will address your specific questions when I am able to put my longer response together.) That said, it was a quip. A joke. Not a serious allegation. If you and I are to have any meaningful dialogue, you should know that my sense of humor leans toward the sarcastic. Yours seems to as well, so I think you understand what I’m saying. I will try to refrain from making such jokes in the future, but you should understand to not take them seriously.”
ASALTYDOG: Steve, of course I know you didn’t *technically* call me a drug addict. And of course I know you meant it as a joke, although it does border on bad manners and personal defamation. And I thought it would be a good counterjoke from my side to keep on mentioning it. The reason is that I find it rather amusing that my denial of deism surprises you to the point that you used that expression — so my occasional mentioning it serves to place a sarcastic stress on your utter confusion and bewilderment. The simple fact that my denial surprises or perplexes you at all is amusing. When you to ask me such questions as, say, whether I’m sure my view is really as traditional as I think, that reveals a lot about you. Deism has been a notorious Christian heresy for centuries. It is at odds with the Bible. Many modern Christians may have unwittingly and carelessly toyed with deism in recent decades, but that’s not my fault. So this is how I bent your joke to fire back to you. Having said that, I know you are referring now to this paragraph: “And for someone who compared me to a drug addict, your complaining now that my word “attack” was hostile and unfriendly makes you sound like you are stuck exactly in the middle between hysteria and hypocrisy.” Well, you didn’t joke when you objected to my use of the word “attack”, and I did make fun of your pompous seriousness at that point. We are certainly engaging each other’s positions, but only a pompous fool would deny that attacking is also a good description. Black and white attack each other all the time in chess, and no real personal hostility between the two players needs to be inferred from that word. If I am supposed to understand that your asking me if I have been on drugs is a joke, I beg your pardon, the least I can say in reply is that you are then supposed to understand that my calling your writings an “attack” is a totally legitimate figure of speech. So please sit down and take it easy.
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STEVEG: “Secondly, a quick note on your final thought in the post above: SteveG: “Find me anyone who claims they do. Why should I try to provide evidence for claim no one makes?”
ASALTYDOG: “I see. Find me then someone who claims that dinosaurs and dogs shared the same habitat. Checkmate.”
STEVEG: “I didn’t say the same habitat, I said at the same time.” [And then, Steve, you ramble on about the absence of layers that contain dinosaurs and cats, or dinosaurs and dogs, or mammoths and ostriches, or primates and trilobites, or T-Rexes and terriers.]
ASALTYDOG: You don’t get it. I understand your question, but you don’t understand my answer. Read again those paragraphs. Watch again the chessboard. To take an extreme example, giraffes and penguins live now at the same time, but would you expect to find their fossils close to each other four thousand years from now? Why not? Of course I could make less spectacular examples involving animals living far closer to each other but never actually mingling together due to their different habits, habitats, and ecological niches. Now in order for your argument to work against creationism you need to make several crucial, unprovable assumptions. One of these assumptions is that I or the Bible should make the claim that, on the night God unleashed the Flood, dinosaurs and dogs, or mammoths and ostriches, or primates and trilobites, or T-Rexes and terriers, shared the same habitat and used to hang around at the same bar after work. And that when the Flood waters started to rise and hit, these unlikely couples didn’t part company in panic and due to different anatomies, in order to reach high ground, but stayed faithfully close to each other, probably holding hands and hugging each other, until the bitter end, and tragically drowned together like in some old-fashioned Hollywood movie. But neither I, nor the Bible, nor anybody I know has ever made that kind of claim, not even if you strip down the humor from it. So the bishop is on F3, the horse is on D2, and THAT’S why it’s checkmate. Go back to that part of my post and play it back in slow motion if you still don’t get it. And I’m not counting all the other several unprovable assumptions you are making in your latest reconstruction of how the Flood should have happened. Contrary to what you’re saying there are many fossils of so called modern animals (lions, tigers, zebras, giraffes, hippos, dogs, bats, squirrels, sharks, crocodiles, etc), and there are many so called ancient animals that were thought by evolutionists to have been extincted ages ago which are still with us. There are rumors that terriers were bred several days after the end of the Flood. In these last four thousand years many so called modern animals may have changed a lot from their fossilized ancestors, much like modern Italian comes from Latin: they are very different today, but all the changes came in a few centuries. There is nothing in the way the fossils are layered that looks any different from an ecological breakdown of where the animals were generally standing when the Flood hit them. It’s not like your imaginary, groundless, reckless reconstruction of how the prediluvian world must have looked like proves that the actual layering of the fossils is inconsistent with the biblical Flood. That reasoning is preposterous. It’s the other way around. The actual layering of the fossils tells us which animals were hanging with which animals when it started to rain.
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SteveG at #289:
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STEVEG: “Interesting links. I understand the point.”
ASALTYDOG: We’ll see about that.
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STEVEG: “But you know what? When you drop a brick from the top of a tower, it falls down. It accelerates until, if it doesn’t hit the ground first, it reaches what is called terminal velocity, the fastest it will fall.”
ASALTYDOG: Which brick are you talking about? This one? That one? Have you tested all bricks? How about Vietnamese bricks? Hot bricks? Blue bricks? If you have, you have way too much free time. But even supposing you have, how do you know the next brick you drop won’t freeze in mid air? Or if this sounds somewhat too implausible to you, try this. Say your first brick hits the ground at the speed of 15 meters per second. Why do you suppose that the next brick, all other things being precisely equal, will hit the ground at that same speed? How about 5 m/s? Why not 18 m/s? Why not 14 m/s? That’s the sort of questions you should start asking yourself, due to your assumptions about reality.
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STEVEG: “God could intervene and change that at any time.”
ASALTYDOG: No. God never stops intervening. There was no time when he wasn’t intervening. He brings the brick all the way down to the ground. No “could intervene” about it. If God didn’t “intervene” all the time, keeping the brick together as it falls down, the brick would — I don’t know — fall apart in mid air? Dissolve? Explode? Morph into an unspeakably terrifying mess? It’s an utterly unthinkable scenario.
And of course it’s not like God usually leaves bricks alone only to become suddenly interested in bricks when someone decides to drop them from tall buildings. If a brick has remained in its place undisturbed for 720 years, God has actively kept that brick’s atoms and electrons up and running and spinning, and doing whatever he wants atoms and electrons to be doing in a brick, nanosecond after nanosecond, for all those 720 years. I call that a heck of a thankless job. There was never a moment during those 729 years when you could have caught God off guard, and asked him what’s up with that brick, and God having to go and check if everything is still working there like it should. Not only that, but God even knows how many hairs you have in your head.
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STEVEG: “He could make it fall faster or slower or not at all or even upward.”
ASALTYDOG: Correct. But the Christian position is that there’s no such scenario where God just sits down, lets the brick loose, and sees how the brick does the natural thing of falling to the ground, or of reaching terminal velocity.
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STEVEG: “But most of the time, he doesn’t.”
ASALTYDOG: Correct. That’s because He is faithful and merciful and not a covenant-breaking, despotic, evil idol. He gave mankind a mission to accomplish — subdue the earth — that presupposes a careful study of the various regularities and uniformities of creation. He has promised that as a rule we should expect things in nature to follow logical, detectable, predictable patterns of behavior. We should study these regularities with gratitude, awe, fascination, and anticipation.
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STEVEG: “Most of the time, the brick behaves exactly as we expect it to.”
ASALTYDOG: Expect? Why do you expect the brick to behave in a certain way? I know why I do. But given your world view, there is no way you can rationally expect the brick to do anything. I don’t mean that you don’t expect the brick to behave in a certain way. You most certainly do. I am asking on what grounds, given your world view, you end up considering a certain behavior as most likely. I know you find this question infuriating and irrelevant. But before you start answering once again “Why, because so far the brick has always…”, it would be wise for you to read David Hume and the problem of induction. And if you are familiar with the problem of induction ever since you were in the womb, would you please explain how you have solved it? Three, two, one, google away.
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STEVEG: “The first link argues that we live in a universe of chaos where anything could happen at any time, and doesn’t only because God causes it all to happen as we see. Well and good. But all the same, it does happen as we see. So while we may differ theologically over just why that is, it is. Why is this not something we can agree on?”
ASALTYDOG: Because this, Steve, is already the point where you lose the debate. Before we even start it.
You want our discussion to start from certain assumptions about science, logic, and ethics. There are understandable and predictable natural laws that govern the ways of the universe. Science. From what we see in nature we can draw certain inferences and further build arguments upon arguments that prove or at least give strong evidence for other truths. Logic. And in this process it is necessary to keep an eye on one’s own ethical integrity, because things like misquoting, misrepresenting, cheating or lying, even “for Jesus”, render the debate meaningless and impossible, and logic entails a moral obligation to accept the conclusion of an argument, once the premises are valid and the argument is sound. Ethics. Then you plan to go ahead and argue from these premises that biblical Christianity is false, Darwinism is true, etc. Fine. Let’s imagine that I agree with all your premises. Then let’s imagine (it’s easy if you try) that the utterly inconceivable happens. You win the debate. Your arguments are so persuasive and devastating that you win me over. I throw away my Bible and become a Darwinist. Now what? Now my friend you need to live with that truth, and one way to get started is to grab a glass of champagne, sit down on your coach, and for celebrating the victory, rewind the tape to the beginning of this debate, to the point where we stand right now, and carefully consider what is actually going on.
So what is going on? You put down the glass of champagne and focus on the sounds and on the images flashing on the screen. You know that the God of the Bible does not exist. You have convinced even me of that. And you consider the beginning of this debate, the scene where we discuss the assumptions about science, logic, ethics, from which we agree to proceed. Science. Logic. Ethics. The laws of nature. The bricks. The wet street. The mountain lion. The bricks.
And then it hits you. If the God of the Bible does not exist, we can’t afford making any of those assumptions about science, logic and ethics which you now see us naively making on the videotape as we get ready for the debate, headed toward your victory. All those assumptions make sense only in a universe where the God of the Bible exists. Can’t be true. Can’t be true. Can’t be true. But of course it is.
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STEVEG:“Observation. Measurement. Testing. Repeating. If something happens the same way every time when the same conditions apply, you have found a natural law.”
ASALTYDOG: I have? In your scenario, at what point do you quit repeating the test and call it a law? How do you know that testing one more time wouldn’t give a different result? How can you ever reach certainty that your keys will always fall to the ground if dropped? To say that they always fell in the past does not prove that they will always continue to fall.
Laws of Nature are not based on certainty, but on repeated and tested observations. These Laws are proposed to be universal, but do not inherently reject the possibility of contrary evidence. Therefore, an omniscient knowledge of all things in all situations is a false requirement for codifying a Law of Nature.
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Wow. i am significantly dumber than before i started to read that.
Saul T Dog, congratulations. That is some seriously high quality good stuff there. I especially like the fact that you took about two pages of text to reiterate over and over what could be paraphrased as “Because Duh Bibble Said So”. Steve is not an atheist and has told you several times, O Solipcist, that he is a christian.
Stuff like ‘the god of the bible exists necessarily’ and ‘i believe that my keys might hover tomorrow because i am not a deist but a christian’ is some seriously high octane tard and be assured that it will live forever. you have done a great service to mankind. i look forward to reading the rest as soon as i can fashion a tinfoil hat to keep out the rays of stupid.
still looking forward to hearing how the eastern wood rat got to the tip of the southern appalachians from wherever it is you claim mt ararat is. hope you spice it up a bit and maybe have it tunnel through the center of the earth, or perhaps slip into a wormhole and travel through space AND time.
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My moonbat friend
” In these last four thousand years many so called modern animals may have changed a lot from their fossilized ancestors, much like modern Italian comes from Latin: they are very different today, but all the changes came in a few centuries.”
Wow. how come no one has observed all of these drastic massive changes? how come the only evidence for this is contained inside of your feverish compartmentalized head? do tell.
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The Seasoned Canine has indeed created a masterwork here. I will try to respond, but I might need to take some hallucinogens myself first.
What is especially impressive is his repeated demands of absolute proof for anyone else’s point of view, but is quite happy to base his own on having read a book.
Small quibble Erasmus … I am more a Deist in the fashion of Thomas Paine than a Christian. But I am not an atheist.
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FLAMING ICARUS at #304:
“Laws of Nature are not based on certainty, but on repeated and tested observations.”
Laws of nature are useful for making predictions and generalizations, or not at all. In order for them to make predictions and generalizations, they must be based on first having established the uniformity of nature. If you fail to provide a basis for that, all your “repeated and tested observations” only tell you what happened to some stuff, somewhere, some day. Without that crucial foundation, you don’t have any epistemological warrant to extend your results to cover other untested items – or even the same items somewhere else, some other day. Live with that. And it won’t do to say, “But in the past this has always worked”. You still have no warrant to expect that the future will be like the past. This is called the problem of induction. I am not making this up. That is why I said that, given Steve’s worldview, “natural law” is just another term for “fallible, unsubstantiated, unjustified, completely irrational generalization”.
“These Laws are proposed to be universal, but do not inherently reject the possibility of contrary evidence.”
This is a convenient disclaimer in very small print your conscience forces you to attach to your definition. It is a disclaimer that defeats the whole point of a claiming to have the warrant for making generalizations. Your claim to have reached the formulation of a generalization is bogus, no matter how you make disclaimers that “generalization” does not mean “generalization”, and “is” doesn’t actually mean “is”. This is not science, it is clintonian science. Your disclaimer amounts to an admission that you don’t have the thing you claim to have. Then you guys come to me and say, science proves the Bible wrong. You can’t believe in the Bible in this scientific age. Jesus can’t have walked on water. He can’t have risen from the dead. A virgin can’t conceive a child. You Christians are such morons. You are so anti-science. All these things are impossible. They go against the laws of nature. Ha! The famous Laws of Nature! Where are now your small-print disclaimers?
“Therefore, an omniscient knowledge of all things in all situations is a false requirement for codifying a Law of Nature.”
It will not do to simply redefine away and rewrite the requirements for codifying a natural law in order to make room for the impotence of your world view to provide the basis for science, which is what you are doing here. You can redefine and rewrite the official “requirements” how much you like, but doing so will not give you back what you don’t have, and which is under scrutiny here, that is, the epistemological warrant for making generalizations out of a limited number of observations. You could just as well make a civil law forbidding gravity, or the Pythagorean theorem. You are like the king who wants to be known as the King of the Whole World, and when a traveler tells him he has seen many other kingdoms beyond the mountains, much larger than his, the king decrees that the “control of an actual spatially extended piece of land covering the whole planet” is a false requirement for establishing that he is in fact the King of the Whole World. Big deal. You are simply banging your fist on the table and yelling, “Now get this fellows, if I want to make generalizations out of a limited number of observations, I just can, don’t you dare tell me I can’t, and that’s it!” But no matter how much you delude yourself in this way, the fact remains that you don’t have that epistemological warrant. And you don’t have that warrant because your worldview fails to provide the preconditions for that generalization, which is that you must establish and give a justification for presupposing the uniformity of nature.
This is the problem of inductions, ladies and gentlemen. I didn’t invent it. Check it up. Don’t yell at me. Or do, if it makes you feel better. It makes science impossible for you guys who reject the Christian God. And it makes you look pathetic in your attempts to attack Christianity using science and the laws of nature, of all things. Science is possible only if Christianity is true. You are unable to forge argumentative weapons from the mines of your sterile worldview, so in order to justify your rebellion against the God of the Bible you secretly steal the weapons you need from Christianity, and use them for attacking God. You are assuming the truth of Christianity every time you type your stuff on the computer. Logic? Ethics? Science? There’s no room for these things if you start with a denial of the Christian God. So quit stealing our stuff. Only faith in God makes all these things possible. Like a wiser man said, you are like the child who slaps his father on the face, while sitting all the time on his lap. But Christianity overcomes the problem of induction and therefore alone provides the preconditions and the epistemological warrant and justification for making science. Not to speak of logic. And ethics. Why continue your futile rebellion then? Join us. This is the way God made the world, folks. Get used to it. God won’t be mocked.
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ASaltyDog at #302:
Here the post will inflate itself into excessive length if I quote all that has gone before in its entirety. Therefore, I will be deleting large portions for the sake of brevity. Anyone interested in tracking the original post has it above to refer to. Assuming anyone but us is reading this at all.
As per my usual style, I will put quoted material in italics and my new comments in standard type.
ASALTYDOG: The questions I am asking go unanswered. And no, my point is not that “Because you can’t demonstrate, . . . it’s ok to discount it”. My point is, “Because you can’t demonstrate, . . . how do you know it’s true – that is, how do you know it’s true that the eggs are subject to a law?” Once you have established that the behavior of the eggs is subject to a law, it makes sense to predict the behavior the next egg. But how do you establish that the behavior of the eggs is subject to a law? That is my question.
How do I know the physical universe behaves as it does because it is subject to laws of nature rather than ongoing divine intervention? If that is the question then you misunderstand the statement.
The laws of nature are only codified and mathematical representations of observed behavior. It does not speak to the underlying cause of the behavior. Whether the boiled egg’s contents turn from liquid to solid because they just do or because God causes it to happen is not within the purview of the laws. What is within their purview is the descriptions of behavior. A given volume of water will heat to a boil when subjected to a temperature of at least 100 degrees C for am amount of time that can be calculated if you know the precise temperature, the volume of water and the heat conductivity of the material of the container. The boiling water will cook the egg in an amount of time that is similarly predictable.
The reason it does this is not part of the calculation. Whatever the reason, it does. If there should be an occasion where it does not, then the idea that it’s subject to God’s will and not natural forces will be strengthened, but as it stands, both your idea of constant divine intervention and my idea of laws that always operate as they do because that’s the way the universe is are equally well-supported.
STEVEG: Why do you assume that tomorrow you might drop your keys and see them hover in mid-air rather than falling?
ASALTYDOG: Because I am not a deist. I am a Christian.
You stated earlier that you believe God chooses to operate in a consistent manner and objected to my suggestion that if everything happens only because of God’s actions, that means it’s subject to God’s whim. Are you now saying that God might well choose to not send your keys to the ground tomorrow? If so, is that not a whim?
STEVEG: It is the fact that nature operates in observable and predictable ways that makes science possible.
ASALTYDOG: Correct. But how do you know that that is a fact? Given your world view, how do you know it?
STEVEG: Whether nature operates that way because God designed it to do so or because it just does is irrelevant to that issue. It does.
ASALTYDOG: Does it? How do you know? Don’t say that nature operates in observable and predictable ways only because Christians say so. You have to show that it is the case from your world view. Christians are morons and liars, remember?
Who says? I have never said this. I suppose it might be true of some Christians, but hardly all.
Your demand for 100 percent certainty is not valid. We know that things work in certain ways whenever we observe them. We therefore assume they will continue to work that way, and lo and behold, they do. My world view is quite content to rely on repeated and repeatable observations to understand how the world works. The demand for 100 percent proof and observation of all possible instances of a phenomenon is your own invention. Whether it’s possible to ever know something with 100 percent certainty has occupied philosophers for millennia, but science does not require that standard.
STEVEG: If a day comes when suddenly things don’t behave they way they’ve always been seen to before, then we’ll have a problem. Until, and unless, such a day comes, the universe continues to operate in observable and predictable ways.
ASALTYDOG: Predictable? Why do you assume that the universe will continue to behave like it did in the past? And have you tested all the ways in which the universe operated in the past?
See above. If things operate a certain way today, and there is no evidentiary reason to believe it might have been different in the past, we can conclude that it wasn’t. Should evidence be discovered that challenges that assumption, it will be investigated.
STEVEG: Homologies are strong evidence of common descent, to a scientist seeking to understand the natural forces that shape life on Earth. If you want to insist that magical God COULD have just things that look similar, well, ok, but where is your evidence that God DID do this, or for that matter, that God even exists?
ASALTYDOG: You have never explained how homologies can be evidence for common descent, in the light of the competing creationist claim of common design and in the light of the uncontested concept of convergent evolution. But YOU ACTUALLY CONCEDE HERE THAT THE ARGUMENT FROM HOMOLOGIES IS FLAWED! so kudos to you. It was a long time coming but worth the wait. I hope I never hear again from you this argument for common descent, and that you on the contrary join creationists in pointing out to evolutionists that the argument is invalid. My next question for you is, if not due to homologies, on what grounds do you believe in evolution?
Homologies are one of several physical signs of relationship between different organisms. (Other signs are in the genes.) The “competing creationist claim” doesn’t compete at all, scientifically … once you invoke a deity, you’re outside of science. (That’s not to say it’s not true, it’s just beyond the scope of science to consider or demonstrate). And you do not understand convergent evolution if you think it is a challenge to common descent. Convergent evolution is a different aspect of the same evolutionary theory.
STEVEG: . . . where is your evidence that God DID do this, or for that matter, that God even exists? You are quick to accuse others of logic errors and don’t recognize your own question begging?
ASALTYDOG: Genesis chapter 1 for instance.
Which is evidence only that the Hebrews had their own creation myth, just as every other ancient culture did. It is not in any way evidence that the story is true.
Plus it is impossible that God does not exist. The God of the Bible exists necessarily.
Then it shouldn’t be hard for you to produce some evidence of such. Actual evidence, I mean, not another unsupported assertion.
Do you really not understand the absurdity of demanding iron clad proof from me, but assuming you can make bald faith claims and expect that to pass as suffiient proof of yours?
And furthermore, you are not an atheist, are you? Didn’t you say you believe some God may well exist? But if so, why doesn’t THAT prove to you that the evolutionistic argument from homologies is flawed? As a theist, how could you have bought that as evidence for evolution?
You should try reading some actual science. There is a lot more weight to the evidence for evolution than the physical resemblance of organisms’ bodies.
I do believe in God. I believe God used evolution as the mechanism for Creation. Science explores and explains the how, theology answers the why.
There is no need for me to come along with my biblical creationism in order to make you reconsider the argument from homologies. Your own world view includes the possibility of a God. And with the possibility of a God comes the possibility of intelligent design to explain the homologies in nature.
It does. But the existence of a possible alternative does not prove the alternative to be the correct answer.
It also isn’t science. If I believe that God specifically designed some aspects of life, I would not argue that that could ever be scientifically demonstrated. Science is limited, by definition, to the natural. The interventions of deities, even if they happen, are not part of its sphere.
Before you conceded my point, your only objection to my argument was that I can’t prove God exists. That is, you implicitly admitted (as you eventually admitted also explicitly) that to allow the possibility of a God in the picture destroys that particular piece of evidence for evolution. But why did you object about the possibility of a God? You claimed to believe in the possibility of a God. Only a pure atheist can speak like you do in these paragraphs. But you are not an atheist, are you?
I believe a God exists. I do not claim to know God exists. Further, I do not believe in special revelation. God has revealed himself in the creation–universally, the same way for all people–and not in the ancient scriptures of the Hebrews or any other culture. He has left it to us to discover the hows of creation. What we have discovered is evolution. Ergo, this is the process God chose to create. God could have done it another way, but did not.
Therefore, I ask you for evidence of sudden special creation because all the evidence available shows it didn’t happen that way. If you want to convince me it did, it will take more than a reference to Genesis.
STEVEG: I believe nature is predictable because God designed it to be predictable. I do not believe that God has to take proactive action in order for the planet to keep rotating or for my keys to fall, which you keep insisting he does.
ASALTYDOG: God, eh? How do you know that God designed nature to be predictable? On what grounds do you deny that God has to take proactive action in order for the planet to keep rotating or for your keys to fall? How do you know there is a God?
I don’t know there is a God. Neither do you. You know there are scriptures about God. You have settled on the ones you wish to believe and, of necessity, excluded all others.
I believe God has designed nature to be predictable because nature is predictable. If there is a God, ergo, God made it that way. If we’re both wrong and there isn’t a God, then it just is like that. Either way, it is.
On what grounds do you insist that God has to take proactive action for the planet to keep rotating? Don’t say, as you did last time I asked, “because I’m a Christian.” What is it about being a Chrisian that requires your denial of an orderly universe?
ASALTYDOG: What have you done so far to prove that there are natural laws except stating your belief that they are there? As for God possibly creating a brain full of false memories, you may just as well ask, “What if God lies about being the Creator of the world?” This kind of objection boils down to simply asking me why I believe what He says. How do I know that God won’t act out of character? Because He said He will not. How do I know that He is the Creator of the world? Because He said so. You may refuse to believe Him. But that is not an objection to my world view. You have shown no internal inconsistencies or absurdities in God’s Word. Like Satan talking to Eve, you have merely asked me why I don’t reject His Word. My answer is, “Because the Lord my God has been good to me. Because I have an obligation to believe the Word of my Creator. Because I have no reason to doubt His Word. Because rejecting His Word would make no sense whatsoever. Because it would be such an evil thing to do.”
Well and good. But none of that is evidence of anything except that you’ve chosen to believe it. I can show you that your keys always fall when dropped, and you can show yourself. You can’t show me that Satan ever spoke to Eve–or indeed, that Satan exists or Eve existed– not with any more likelihood to be true than I can show you a story of Jupiter sneaking around behind Hera’s back to romance the human women. (A real rascal, that Jupiter.)
STEVEG: You assume the existence of a God you can’t prove and then assert that the belief is evidence against science. There is not much to say to someone with such an evidence-free conviction of things.
ASALTYDOG: You are begging the question. You are saying that evolution must be true, because the alternative, that there is a God, is not proved. I could say (and in fact I do say) the same thing about you: “Creation must be true, because your alternative, that evolution has happened, is not proved; you assume the existence of an evolution you can’t prove and then assert that that belief is evidence against creationism.” Now what?
Nope. I am saying that evolution is probably true because the evidence supports it. It’s not that Creationism is not proved. It’s that there’s no evidence to support the sudden appearance of all life in a span of days a few thousand years ago, and there is ample evidence to contradict that idea.
If evolution were to be proved to be untrue, it still would not mean Creationism is correct. The evidence would still be against Creationism. The disproof of evolution, should that ever happen, would only mean we haven’t found the right answer yet. You are content to assume you know the true story of life on Earth because of the myth of an ancient culture, and despite the actual physical evidence. As I have said, you do have the right to adopt that poisition if you choose, but I believe that you do so only by refusing to see the world as it really is.
The existence of God does not require the literal truth of Genesis. God could have created in any way he chose to. He could have inspired a poetic story that, while not literally true, communicated important facts about the relationship between God and humanity. It could even be that the Hebrews developed a Creation myth all on their own that had nothing to do with the real God.
STEVEG: I never said I could “demonstrate” evolution to “anyone.” The person has to be at least willing to consider the possibility. I can’t prove Genesis wrong to someone who sticks his fingers in his ears and chants “lalala” rather than consider the possibility.
ASALTYDOG: Here I am, considering that possibility since several days now.
In what way are you considering it?
I have been listening to you very carefully. How did you get the impression I have not? Why the whining? What is upsetting you? That I ask you questions? That I investigate about your world view? That I check whether your position makes internal sense? Do you want me to remove my brain and be converted in spite of my doubts, and against my conscience?
You demand my position not just make “internal sense,” but that I be able to prove it beyond all possible doubt. Then to defend your own view, you offer me Genesis and an unsupported assertion that the God of the Bible must exist, just because. You are applying very different standards to the two points of view. Mine requires (to you) exhaustive evidence and absolute certainity, while yours can be based on unevidenced belief.
I am not upset, I am bemused about how to approach someone with such an unbalanced and biased methodology. And it is not “whining,” it is a reasoned and cogent objection to your methods. I am sorry if you don’t like the idea of being held to the same standard you demand of those who disagree with you.
ASALTYDOG: You asked for evidence, I gave it to you. I gave the Bible and the whole universe, all this and heaven too, as evidence for my position.
If you were having this debate with someone who reveres a different holy book, they would give you that as the equivalent of the Bible. Would you consider that evidence for their position?
The universe is only evidence of the universe. Any metaphysical cause of the universe is speculative at best.
Heaven is a matter of faith, not evidence.
“Scientific” evidence? I did give you evidence I call scientific, but you will deny that it is scientific. You will define the word “scientific” in such a way that my evidence is not scientific by definition — much like a dictator defines the word “citizen” to mean people of his country who don’t rebel against his will, so he can boast that in his country no citizen is being tortured or jailed.
I define scientific the same way that scientists do. Evolution is not a finished theory, and no scientist would claim that it is. There are plenty of puzzles to solve yet, and work continues. Contrary to what many Creationists think, scientists don’t just look for ways to shoehorn everything into the evolutionary framework. Unanswered questions are held open for research and study. But to simply shrug and say “well it can’t explain everything yet, so Creationism must be true after all” is, if you know American football, to punt. To give up.
Or like those who define “human being” in such a way that killing an unborn child is not murder by definition. What you really mean is evidence you will find satisfactory.
Well duh. If it’s not persuasive to me, it’s not going to persuade me. Self-evidently true.
That is so naive, Steve. There are no brute facts, only interpreted facts.
So you’re a post-modernist Christian? Interesting. That seems like an oxymoron.
Things that are persuasive when seen through a set of presuppositional glasses will lose their cogency when seen through other glasses, and vice versa. It’s not like if you could only understand, then you would believe. It’s the other way around. If you don’t believe, you will not understand. Believe, and you will understand. And look, this is not a peculiarity of my position. Not at all. Your frustration about my unwillingness to consider the feasibility of your view is this same thing, only seen from your perspective. If I became an evolutionist, I would find your evidence persuasive, wouldn’t I? And I would dismiss creationism as wishful thinking and fairy tales, wouldn’t I? But I believe in God: I find the evidence for creationism overwhelming, while the evidence for evolutionism sounds to me so desperately flimsy and unconvincing as to defy belief.
You may have a point here, to an extent. However, there IS a truth underlying it all. Either life evolved over eons of time, or appeared suddenly (or some yet undiscovered third option.) They can’t both be correct answers. The evidence, viewed objectively, will support one view or the other.
Actually, though, you do raise a point that deserves further attention. “Believe and you will understand.” You may not know this, it’s not come up directly in this conversation although I have mentioned it in other threads, but I used to be a Christian. I DID believe. And one of the reasons I eventually moved out of it (though not the only one) is that trying to believe Genesis when I already knew enough to know it wasn’t possible broke my brain.
But for a few years, I read a lot about intelligent design and Creationism and their arguments against evolution and, really, they just don’t hold water. They are largely based on incorrect information, specious logic and, occasionally, warnings that if you let yourself understand too much about science you’ll end up in hell.
I finally concluded that no true God would require people to believe falsehoods, and so any religion that required a literal reading of Genesis 1-3 must not be of God.
(As a Deist, I should note, I don’t reject the idea of intelligent design entirely. But if there is anything to it, it is as an adjunct to evolution, not a substitution for it.)
ASALTYDOG: Please don’t misrepresent my position. I have no idea why this bothers you. As a rule I am not intervening in other discussions to say that I agree with another fellow Christian, unless perhaps if I think he needs some help I can provide (this was the reason why I entered this forum in the first place). I suppose that’s the attitude of most people. I am far more tempted to intervene in order to disagree with a Christian who in my view is making a fool of himself or is disgracing Jesus Christ and the Church. So the fact nobody came here to say he agrees with me may well be evidence nobody thinks I am even remotely in difficulty in this discussion with you — which does not surprise me in the least. You should consider far more interesting and relevant the fact that no Christian came here to disagree with me. That may surprise you, but I am not surprised about that either. Why any Christian would want to reject the biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God over nature and support deism instead is beyond me, and I am happy to notice that in fact no Christian in this forum has done that. I repeat what I said before: that I am in good company, that this is the classical Christian position, and that nothing is more amusing here than your bafflement as to why I reject a position that was dismissed by the Church as a damnable heresy centuries ago.
The idea that the universe is orderly is a heresy? I had no idea. And honestly, I kinda doubt that’s so.
STEVEG: Have you seen God reaching out to grab your keys? How do you know that’s what happens? Or I should say, without resorting to restating your unprovable theological belief, what *physical* evidence do you have?
ASALTYDOG: I know that’s what happens because I believe what He says about Himself and about his dealings with the world. I have not seen the risen, physical Jesus either. Believing the Word of God is the way I know these things. And when I believe Him, I understand the world. Now it’s my turn. Have you seen the laws of nature reaching out to grab your keys? How do you know that’s what happens? Or I should say, without resorting to restating your unprovable theological belief, what *physical* evidence do you have, Steve?
Then you don’t KNOW. You believe. Which are different things.
My physical evidence is that my keys have never not fallen when dropped. No one else has ever told me of their keys not falling when dropped. I just tested that by dropping my keys a moment ago, and they fell. When someone in a movie or a TV show drops his keys and they fall, no one in the audience ever says “Hey, MY keys don’t fall when I drop them!” Either God always makes keys fall when they’re dropped, or there is a principle of physics involved that causes it to happen. Either way, it always happens the same way.
By the way, if you wear a seatbelt when you drive, cook your food expecting to be able to eat it hot, or look for your keys on the ground when you drop them, you believe in the laws of nature, whether you admit it or not.
STEVEG: You drop your keys, they fall. I say, gravity. You say, God. How do you know you’re right?
ASALTYDOG: Because God can’t lie.
Really? Who told you that? How do you know it was the truth?
STEVEG: I answered. We see trees behaving the same way every time we observe them. We have no reason to think they behave any differently when not being observed. Ergo, that’s the way trees respond to seasonal changes. It’s their nature.
ASALTYDOG: But all you have tested is a bunch of trees. Even all the scientists in the world have tested only a bunch of trees. See that tree over there, the one near the bridge? Does it have an obligation to behave like the trees that have been tested? How do you know that the nature of that tree over there is to have a certain predictable response to seasonal changes?
Answered earlier.
STEVEG: If you can’t accept that answer because you insist on believing God has to decide to make it happen every spring, then you go right ahead.
ASALTYDOG: That is not my concern now at all. My concern now is trying to understand your world view, and see if it makes any sense. It’s your mystical talk about strange, occult natural laws and odd, inexplicable predictions about trees and rocks and keys that worries me. It all makes your world view sound more and more like something that might originate from the mind of a drunken shaman, or a seedy fortune teller.
And this is babble. My view is the same as that of every rational person.
And by the way God is there making it happen every day, not every spring. Can’t you see that trees grow every day a little bit?
You are begging the question … assuming the conclusion without demonstrating it. You know better than that.
ASALTYDOG: I already said that this is not necessarily the way a man knows things. I know that Christ does these things because that’s what He says He does, and I believe Him. Now my turn. Have you seen the laws of nature doing these things? Or have you just seen them happen and believe it is the laws of nature doing it?
He says this? Have you heard him? Or have you just read stories saying he said things?
When did Christ speak to you?
STEVEG: I think most Christians, while believing in a God who intervenes more personally and more often than a Deist does, would not insist that only direct and proactive action of God is what makes anything happen at all.
ASALTYDOG: Here you go again, hoping I would believe something else from what I say I believe, hoping the Bible would teach something different from what it teaches, and hoping the position you are engaging was easier to engage. If there are Christians out there who bought deistic premises, too bad for them. I can only speak for myself, and hopefully, for what Christians have traditionally believed. If your argumentation is ineffective against traditional Christianity, and you freely confess you’d rather go and preach to the choir, that speaks volumes about the inner strength of your position.
Where in the Bible does it say God has to directly cause everything in the universe to happen?
Genesis One says God had to rest on the seventh day because he was tired. In Exodus, during the giving of the commandment about the Sabbath, it says God rested “and was refreshed.” What happens to the universe when God is tired and needs to be refreshed? Does nothing happen on those days?
Does that sound silly? Of course God doesn’t get tired and have to rest, does He? He’s omnipotent and omnipresent, and non-physical. And yet, the Scripture you say you are obliged to believe in literal detail says otherwise, plain as day.
STEVEG: Laws of nature simply describe things that happen – “a body at rest tends to remain at rest” for example, just means that if a ball is sitting motionless on the sidewalk, it’s going to stay motionless until some outside force … a person, the wind or something … causes it to move. One need not insist that Christ keeps his hand on the ball to hold it still until that happens, and I doubt you will find many Christians who think you do.
ASALTYDOG: More wishful thinking. And even if you were right about the numbers, you are still merely conceding that your world view is not on the same league with classical Christianity. If you are just thinking loud, and you are now contemplating abandoning this career in order to go and preach to the choir, or in order perhaps to enter some propaganda agency with limited feedback from the target audience, I can’t stop you, but I do wonder why you don’t join us. You do have talents for debating, but you are using them to support a lost cause. I say this sincerely, this is not mockery. Come to Jesus Christ, we have a job for you.
The cause of Reason is the wave of the future. Come catch it, before it passes you by.
STEVEG: I assume the question you believe I didn’t answer is, “If so, why are they [homologies] necessarily evidence of common descent?” Who said they are “necessarily”so? You want to believe God instantly created them and some just happen to look like others. Go right ahead.
ASALTYDOG: Once again, in case we didn’t get it the first time, YOU CONCEDE that homologies are not necessary evidence for evolution.
They are evidence for evolution, and more importantly, they fit in with a lot of other evidence for evolution. You keep speaking of homologies as if you think physical resemblance is the key piece of evidence evolutionists have. In Darwin’s day that might have been true,but it is no longer and has not been for a long time …. at least not since the discovery of DNA half a century ago.
Now of course, if you want to say that God created everything and designed it to look similar, there’s no scientific argument against that because you’ve left the world of science. But it does raise the question of, why would a God who created everything fully formed and suddenly go to great lengths to make it look otherwise?
ASALTYDOG: I would say there is no neutral ground whatever between us. Glad to see it is dawning on you. But common ground, yes, I think. You live in God’s world, and you are made in His image, so you can’t really completely flee from Him. Nobody here is making that claim about aliens. If someone does, I’ll go and talk to him.
Nobody? Ever hear of Scientology? Scientologists believe that 75 million years ago, an alien called Xenu, who was the ruler of galactic confederacy, brought billions of people to Earth, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls now stick to the bodies of living people and become evil influences that people have to try to identify and neutralize. It sounds crazy to me, but you know what a Scientologist would tell you? If you believe it first, then it will make sense.
See, every religious system, no matter how absurd, makes perfect sense to people inside it.
STEVEG: “Can anyone prove common descent? Science deals in probability, not proof.”
ASALTYDOG: “This is not how you speak when not challenged in this way. Or aren’t you the same guy who wrote, “Science DOES contradict [biblical revelation], and it HAS been proven false.” (. . . ) How does not-proving common descent prove the Bible wrong? If not common descent, what proved the Bible wrong?
STEVEG: What proves Genesis wrong (unless reality isn’t real) is that there is ample evidence for an old Earth and universe, lifeforms that didn’t live at the same time and in fact were separated by billions of years in some cases, and a few books’ worth of other points.
ASALTYDOG: Prove all that then. Pay close attention to your logic here. You grant that common descent can’t be proved, and you concede that it is therefore not common descent that proves the Bible wrong. You have conceded the same thing about homologies. I ask you, what is it then that does prove the Bible wrong? In reply you restate your belief that the Bible is proved wrong, and you make a list of pieces of “EVIDENCE” for this and that. What I ask now is this. Is all this other “evidence” just like the “common descent” or “homologies” type of evidence? Because if it is, it is headed fast for the same garbage bin as the other two types. If it’s evidence that can’t be proved, you have already admitted that it’s not the kind of evidence that proves the Bible wrong. Therefore I ask again, PROVE IT. Or if you prefer, the garbage bin is right over there.
You continue to conflate two separate things.
Thing One: The evidence shows that different forms of life lived at different times, and those times are measured in millions and billions of years,not days or hundreds of years. This is confirmed in many different ways and by many different fields of science, including astronomy (the age of the universe and the understanding of how planets form), physics (radiometric dating), geology (the strata of the Earth),and biology, genetics and paleontology for the history and current state of life. That alone is enough to prove (within the bounds of science anyway) that the Genesis account is not literally true. It is a probability, not a certainty, but it is a probability on the order of 99.999999999 percent. It would take a series of radical discoveries that completely rewrite everything we think we understand about those fields to overturn it. It is not one or two pieces of data. It is not a conjecture. It is more than a century of successive discoveries from diverse fields that all interlock and support the conclusion.
You again have your biased standard of “proof,” and further, demand that I “prove” 150 years of complex science in the space of a blog post, and no doubt you will feel free to discard it when I tell you that if you are sincerely interested, read some books.
Thing Two: The evidence strongly supports evolution through common descent as a basic foundation of our understanding of life on Earth, with some questions yet to be answered.
The important point you need to get: Thing One does not depend on Thing Two. If Thing Two were completely proven wrong, Thing One would remain in place.
STEVEG: Much of this same evidence strongly supports evolution through common descent but, it is conceivable that in the future, further discoveries could lead to changes. But what we already know is enough to say that Genesis’s story of Creation is not literally true.
ASALTYDOG: Nonsense. What is it that we “already know” that is “enough” to say that Genesis is “not literally true”? All I have heard from you so far is a growing list of concessions that it isn’t the homologies thing, and it isn’t the common descent thing either. So what is it? And tell me, I pray, why didn’t you write, “What we know for the moment is enough to say that Genesis’s story of Creation is not literally true, but, it is conceivable that in the future, further discoveries could lead to changes”?
Because as I said, unless those further discoveries have the effect of totally invalidating everything discovered and learned so far, they’re not going to have the effect you suggest.
Why is it conceivable that, due to “further discoveries”, what we now know about “evolution through common descent” could go through “changes” in the future, in spite of its being today “strongly” supported by “much evidence”, but “what we already know now is enough to say” that Genesis is “not literally true”? Why is evidence (even “strong” evidence) for certain aspects of evolution is always open to falsification, but evidence against creation is water proof?
Evidence against Creation is certainly open to falsification. Find me a fossil of a salty dog and a trilobite in the same geological stratum and the evidence against Creation is falsified. Find a cave painting depicting cavemen menaced by a dinosaur, and the evidence against Creation is falsified. Find me an arrowhead or a primitive spear tip embedded in a dinosaur bone and the evidence against Creationism is falsified.
ASALTYDOG: You prove to me now that human beings did not all speak the same language. You prove to me now the global flood did not occur. You are the one making the assertion here, not I. “Biblical revelation has been proved false.” “Science does contradict biblical revelation.” And on top of that, how can you be sure I’ll see my own reflection on the mirror?
STEVEG: As you well know (or should being as you are an expert on logic) negatives can’t be proved. This part of the communications problem in fact, as you are challenging me to “prove” God didn’t poof everything into existence.
ASALTYDOG: So if the Bible can’t be proved wrong, and if it wasn’t proved wrong, and if it isn’t prove wrong, and if you didn’t prove it wrong, and if nobody proved it wrong, would you please quit saying that the Bible was proved wrong?
If you remain within the realm of what we can see and know, the evidence does not support the Genesis account in any way. The plaintiff (Creationist) has not met the burden of proof. Verdict for the defendant.
STEVEG: That a flood occurred or that all humans spoke the same language until Babel are positive claims. The burden of proof is on you.
ASALTYDOG: Here you sound like someone who was walking by, overheard the last two sentences of a discussion between friends, and thought it was a smart idea to stop and scold one of the two friends, without having much of a clue about what was going on. Reread this section of the discussion, and you will see that it was you who had the burden of proof here, not I.
I’m going to give you a reference. Go here and try to read it as objectively as you can. Suspend, just for a few minutes, your a priori belief in the Bible and really consider this with an open mind.
You asked for evidence … that one page has a truckload of it, if you can read it objectively. (Yes, I could recapitulate it here, but I’ve been writing this response for almost five hours now and at any rate, they say it better than I could.)
ASALTYDOG: In other words you concede here that you can’t prove common descent. But you didn’t come to this forum to announce that you can’t prove common descent, that homologies aren’t evidence for common descent, and that creationists are free to believe whatever they want. No, you came to this forum to announce that “creationists really aren’t interested in the truth” and “refuse to acknowledge the observed facts of the real world” since “they deny a well-supported scientific theory”, and believe instead a view which “science DOES contradict”, which actually “contradicts what we see with our own eyes”, which therefore “HAS been proven false”, and which “should not be acceptable to anyone”, because “science trumps ancient myth, yes”, which means that “AIG and the ICR are rightly maligned” because “they spread misinformation and confusion about what the facts are”, and indeed “they represent about as blatant a case of ‘lying for Jesus’ as there is”, which in turns upsets you because “it is frustrating trying to talk about science and facts with people who avowedly are unwilling to even consider the possibility that they might be mistaken” (all emphasis yours).
And all true. Evolution is well-supported by the evidence. Someone who insists on 100 percent proof for evolution while accepting Creationism unquestioningly based on Genesis and no external evidence will not be impressed.
Like I’ve been trying to tell you, without agreement on some common principles, dialogue that has any meaning becomes very difficult.
STEVEG: Right. I can’t make you not believe what you do. You are free to believe it. I am free to not believe it. Why is this a problem for you? Here you seem to be gravely personally offended,
ASALTYDOG: You miss the point. You concede that common descent can’t be proved and that homologies are not necessary evidence of evolution either. You also affirm that it’s okay for creationists to believe what they want. If so, are you the same SteveG who writes elsewhere in this forum? And if you just changed your mind about these things, there will be expectations that you will talk differently from now on.
I haven’t changed my mind about anything. But I have been reminded of the intractibility of belief.
ASALTYDOG: You don’t follow the argument. You said you “start with what you can observe”. I asked you when have you observed natural laws. You said “Just now. I press keys . . . words appear. . . They do this because of known principles about physics and electronics, not because God is making the words appear.” I said, prove that words appear on the screen because of known principles and not because of God. You refuse to prove that assertion. I also tell you that you have never observed natural laws, you have only observed words that appeared on the screen. You tell me I have never seen Jesus make the rain fall either: I have only seen the rain fall, so how is my position better than yours? The reason why this comment is irrelevant is that I am not the one who at the beginning made the claim about starting “with what you can observe.” It is true I have never seen Jesus make the rain fall, but I am not claiming that I start “with what you can observe.” My knowledge that Jesus makes the rain fall is not based on raw observation but on faith in His Word. This is why my position “is better” than yours.
If you had faith that the rain falls when Jesus cries, that would not make it knowledge. Your position is not better; you just appeal to something you consider to be an authority. You have not established a predicate for that belief.
ASALTYDOG: And the formulas and diagrams you have in mind may describe (tentatively) how things work, not the reason. Nor can the formulas and diagrams tell you in advance what will happen the next time you press a key.
STEVEG: The formulas and diagrams CAN tell me in advance what will happen next time. That’s the very definition of science, a theory that makes correct predictions. I press the P key and a P appears. I now predict that the next time I use that key the same thing will occur: P. If I have a formula that tells me P will appear but a B appears instead, then something is wrong with either my formula or my machine.
ASALTYDOG: You don’t understand. The formulas are only a description of what some keys have done in the past. Given your world view, what obligation do the keys have to keep on behaving in the same way? What obligation do the untested keys have to imitate their colleagues? What guarantee do you have that they will? You assume continuity and uniformity of nature. On what grounds do you make that assumption? Why should the universe continue to behave like it has done so far? And you haven’t even tested all the keys in the building, let alone all the keys in the world. Yes, the formulas CAN tell you in advance what will happen next time. BUT ONLY IF YOU HAVE FIRST ESTABLISHED THE UNIFORMITY OF NATURE. Given your world view, how do you do that? Yes, that’s science. How do you justify science?
The universe should continue to behave as it has done so far because it has behaved that way so far and nothing has changed. Our theories tell us that when things have behaved a certain way consistently in the past, and no conditions have changed that affect the systems involved, they will continue to behave that way in the future. Every time that things behave as we expect them to, the theory comes closer and closer to certainty.
Have you heard of the germ theory of disease? It holds that certain microorganisms attack cells in certain ways and cause diseases. It’s a well-supported theory. It bears out in observation every time. But is it 100 percent certain? It could be that evil spirits really cause disease and the germs are just there coincidentally. But the fact that the same germs cause the same diseases every time (or if they don’t it’s because they provoke a successful antibody response that prevents it) supports the germ theory.
See the next response block for more on the unformity of nature.
ASALTYDOG: I have? In your scenario, at what point do you quit repeating the test and call it a law? How do you know that testing one more time wouldn’t give a different result? How can you ever reach certainty that your keys will always fall to the ground if dropped? To say that they always fell in the past does not prove that they will always continue to fall.
Again with “proof.” You are laboring under a false idea here.
STEVEG: It gives you very good reason to expect that they will and also to be surprised if they don’t.
ASALTYDOG: Yes, if you have first established the uniformity of nature. How do you establish it?
You have here a fundamental misunderstanding. The uniformity of nature is not something to be proved, it’s the underlying assumption that makes science possible. It is, yes, an assumption … but that fact that it always leads to reliable results shows that it is a sound one. Science often makes assumptions as part of its process. Those that lead to reliable results tend to become accepted, and those that don’t get discarded. Science is not a simple linear process. A lot of research leads to dead ends, because an assumption is wrong, or a hypothesis doesn’t pan out, or an unanticipated condition arises. It is not a neat and tidy process. It leads to right answers only after it first tests and discards a lot of wrong ones.
If you want to assume that nature is not uniform, then your only possible confirmation will be to find examples where things don’t behave as expected and there’s not a discoverable reason for it.
ASALTYDOG: So in short how does “law” in your vocabulary differ from “fallible, unsubstantiated, unjustified, completely irrational generalization”?
STEVEG: Umm .. by being none of those things. How do you justify making that really astonishing claim?
ASALTYDOG: You want to have law of nature, but you can’t afford them. What you really have is fallible, unsubstantiated, unjustified, completely irrational generalizations.
Which repeats the slander but doesn’t explain why you said it, which is what I asked.
A leads to B every time its observed. Therefore, I predict that the next time A occurs, B will follow. What is fallible, unsubstianted, unjustified and (my personal favorite) irrational about that? That is the very definition of rationlity, Canine. It is not 100 percent certainity. There is always the chance that the next time A occurs, B will not follow after all. But the chances are pretty good it will. It’s a valid point for the philosophers to argue, but we have to live our lives in a world that makes sense until the day it stops making sense.
ASALTYDOG: So why aren’t you a Christian?
STEVEG: Too many kooks.
ASALTYDOG: If it helps, I promise I’ll be in Rwanda while you get baptized.
ASALTYDOG: You don’t follow the flow of the discussion. You didn’t commit the fallacy in the story about rain. I said that SCIENCE commits that fallacy IF and WHENEVER it argues like you say at the beginning here (and science does that very often): “Science starts with the observed phenomena and reasons its way to a coherent theory that explains the phenomena, subject to revision, modification and adjustment as new data comes in.” That, believe it or not, is affirming the consequent.
OK, except it isn’t. Alternate possibilities are discarded only after they’ve been ruled out. In some cases there are no viable alternatives, but where there are, sound science requires they be considered. The process of refining and revising a theory also includes consideration of plausible alternate explanations.
I know what you’re getting at. If there’s a piece of evidence that can be seen to fit with evolution, science takes it as such without considering the possibility that God put it there (or some other alternative.) But that is possible to do today only because evolution is already a well established and accepted theory that’s been tested and strengthended for 150 years. If that same piece of evidence had been found in 1870, when the theory was still new and controversial, it would not be taken so quickly as clearly fitting the evolutionary paradigm.
Another example: Up until the 17th Century, people believed that animals could arise spontaneously from other substances. If the grain got moldy and mice appeared, they assumed the mice came from the moldy grain. If the river flooded and frogs were all over the mud left on the riverbanks, they assumed the frogs came from the mud. But an Italian physician named Francesco Redi did an experiment in 1668 (widely considered to be the first known truly scientific experiment) to test that. He put fresh meat in jars. Some jars he left open. Some he covered with gauze and some he sealed tightly. He saw flies crawling all over the meat in the open jars, and later, a great number of maggots. Flies tried to get at the meat in the gauze-covered jars, and couldn’t, but a few maggots appeared on the meat later. And on the meat in the sealed jars, no maggots at all appeared. Thus he concluded that flies are created by other flies, not rotting meat.
NOW, if you see maggots in meat, you’re going to assume that flies laid eggs in it. The possibility that the maggots came directly from the meat won’t even cross your mind (I hope.) That isn’t “affirming the consequent,” it’s being aware that it’s well-established now that rotting meat doesn’t create maggots, it just serves as an attractive egg-laying site for flies. It’s obvious now … but it wasn’t in Redi’s day and even for a century or two after. The alternate possible cause had to be thoroughly invalidated before it could be set aside as mistaken.
STEVEG: But you are not assuming Creationism is true? Pull the other one.
ASALTYDOG: Yes, I am assuming creationism is true, of course. My point is that your world view always inspects whatever evidence is brought to your attention to see if it carries weapons that may endanger your most cherished beliefs. Evidence is never seen as raw facts, but it is always interpreted on the basis of your world view. And the more self-conscious you are in your world view, the more you will interpret the new evidence in a way that doesn’t disturb your world view at large. You will beat some evidence to pulp if necessary, until it surrenders, so that after the treatment, the “evidence” says what you allow it to say and no more. Some peripheral parts of your world view you will label as negotiable, but there will be a core of beliefs that you will not give up, not over your dead body, no matter what the TV will say tomorrow.
That’s insightful, but surely it applies both ways. You assume Creationism is true … how objectively are you going to take evidence that contradicts that belief?
ASALTYDOG: So you didn’t, and don’t, concede that science has not proved the Bible wrong, eh? In other words, you affirm, and have always affirmed, that science has proved the Bible wrong, correct? So what did you mean when you said, “Science deals in probability, not proof”? Now tell us your definition of “not”, Mr. Clinton! And if your current version is “does prove”, what proves the Bible wrong? You already conceded above that it’s not homologies and it’s not common descent. If not they, what proves the Bible wrong?
Answered above.
STEVEG: You did, but that’s ridiculous. Everything that exists is evidence only that it exists. It is not in any way evidence of how it came to exist.
ASALTYDOG: Now that’s definitely NOT something you are in the habit of saying when you talk about, I don’t know, evolution? And if you really believe that everything that exists is evidence only that it exists, how do you square that with your view that those 284 car keys there in your parking lot are evidence that there is a law of nature hidden somewhere, possibly under the car?
Once you establish that something exists, then you can begin searching for the reason it does.
ASALTYDOG: I know, but did you miss my response to that? You may check above, I replied already almost immediately in #248. And you never replied to that. For your convenience, here it is again, my reply to your #240:
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STEVEG at #240: “First, I didn’t call you a drug addict. I asked whether you had, earlier in your life, used a lot of hallucigenic drugs. I was (and still am) rather perplexed at the denial of natural laws (although I will address your specific questions when I am able to put my longer response together.) That said, it was a quip. A joke. Not a serious allegation. If you and I are to have any meaningful dialogue, you should know that my sense of humor leans toward the sarcastic. Yours seems to as well, so I think you understand what I’m saying. I will try to refrain from making such jokes in the future, but you should understand to not take them seriously.”
ASALTYDOG: Steve, of course I know you didn’t *technically* call me a drug addict. And of course I know you meant it as a joke, although it does border on bad manners and personal defamation. And I thought it would be a good counterjoke from my side to keep on mentioning it. The reason is that I find it rather amusing that my denial of deism surprises you to the point that you used that expression — so my occasional mentioning it serves to place a sarcastic stress on your utter confusion and bewilderment. The simple fact that my denial surprises or perplexes you at all is amusing. When you to ask me such questions as, say, whether I’m sure my view is really as traditional as I think, that reveals a lot about you. Deism has been a notorious Christian heresy for centuries. It is at odds with the Bible. Many modern Christians may have unwittingly and carelessly toyed with deism in recent decades, but that’s not my fault. So this is how I bent your joke to fire back to you. Having said that, I know you are referring now to this paragraph: “And for someone who compared me to a drug addict, your complaining now that my word “attack” was hostile and unfriendly makes you sound like you are stuck exactly in the middle between hysteria and hypocrisy.” Well, you didn’t joke when you objected to my use of the word “attack”, and I did make fun of your pompous seriousness at that point. We are certainly engaging each other’s positions, but only a pompous fool would deny that attacking is also a good description. Black and white attack each other all the time in chess, and no real personal hostility between the two players needs to be inferred from that word. If I am supposed to understand that your asking me if I have been on drugs is a joke, I beg your pardon, the least I can say in reply is that you are then supposed to understand that my calling your writings an “attack” is a totally legitimate figure of speech. So please sit down and take it easy.
Fair enough.
STEVEG: “I didn’t say the same habitat, I said at the same time.” [And then, Steve, you ramble on about the absence of layers that contain dinosaurs and cats, or dinosaurs and dogs, or mammoths and ostriches, or primates and trilobites, or T-Rexes and terriers.]
ASALTYDOG: You don’t get it. I understand your question, but you don’t understand my answer. Read again those paragraphs. Watch again the chessboard. To take an extreme example, giraffes and penguins live now at the same time, but would you expect to find their fossils close to each other four thousand years from now? Why not? Of course I could make less spectacular examples involving animals living far closer to each other but never actually mingling together due to their different habits, habitats, and ecological niches. Now in order for your argument to work against creationism you need to make several crucial, unprovable assumptions. One of these assumptions is that I or the Bible should make the claim that, on the night God unleashed the Flood, dinosaurs and dogs, or mammoths and ostriches, or primates and trilobites, or T-Rexes and terriers, shared the same habitat and used to hang around at the same bar after work. And that when the Flood waters started to rise and hit, these unlikely couples didn’t part company in panic and due to different anatomies, in order to reach high ground, but stayed faithfully close to each other, probably holding hands and hugging each other, until the bitter end, and tragically drowned together like in some old-fashioned Hollywood movie. But neither I, nor the Bible, nor anybody I know has ever made that kind of claim, not even if you strip down the humor from it.
The problem with this is the strata clearly show ecosystems, not just individuals. One layer has land and air animals, sea animals and plants from one era, another has land and air animals, sea animals and plants from an entirely different era. If your scenario here were true, we’d find the land animals from all eras in the layer that came from the higher ground. Or at least we’d find them distributed by body type and size, but we don’t. Why are all the sea creatures at least not fossilized in the same layer? (Not necessarial geographically close, but certainly geologically close?) How come not a single dinosaur died with the mammoths, even if most of them didn’t?
So the bishop is on F3, the horse is on D2, and THAT’S why it’s checkmate. Go back to that part of my post and play it back in slow motion if you still don’t get it. And I’m not counting all the other several unprovable assumptions you are making in your latest reconstruction of how the Flood should have happened. Contrary to what you’re saying there are many fossils of so called modern animals (lions, tigers, zebras, giraffes, hippos, dogs, bats, squirrels, sharks, crocodiles, etc), and there are many so called ancient animals that were thought by evolutionists to have been extincted ages ago which are still with us. There are rumors that terriers were bred several days after the end of the Flood. In these last four thousand years many so called modern animals may have changed a lot from their fossilized ancestors, much like modern Italian comes from Latin: they are very different today, but all the changes came in a few centuries.
So they’re just like our modern animals only very different? Actually it is true that a few very old animals have survived into the modern age without a great deal of change, and there have been fossils found of ancient ones. But it only pertains to crocodiles, sharks and a few other species. Still no dogs, lions, modern tigers (sabretooths yes but they don’t live today). They also, contrary to your scenario, appear in the highest, youngest layers of the Earth, not with the dinosaurs.
And yes, there are occasionally animals thought to have been extinct that we find didn’t die out after all. Nothing remarkable about that.
There is nothing in the way the fossils are layered that looks any different from an ecological breakdown of where the animals were generally standing when the Flood hit them.
See above. Yes there is, a lot.
I’m afraid you didn’t notice my rook on F8 when you were maneuvering your pieces. I have your bishop now.
[Much discussion about bricks omitted because the heart of the issue is here]
ASALTYDOG: Expect? Why do you expect the brick to behave in a certain way? I know why I do. But given your world view, there is no way you can rationally expect the brick to do anything. I don’t mean that you don’t expect the brick to behave in a certain way. You most certainly do. I am asking on what grounds, given your world view, you end up considering a certain behavior as most likely. I know you find this question infuriating and irrelevant. But before you start answering once again “Why, because so far the brick has always…”, it would be wise for you to read David Hume and the problem of induction. And if you are familiar with the problem of induction ever since you were in the womb, would you please explain how you have solved it? Three, two, one, google away.
You know, the insults to my intelligence are really unnecessary.
Hume’s problem was the same as yours: He was arguing the impossibility of certainty. That is, because our experiences to date have always shown things to work a certain way does not guarantee they will the next time.
This is true. It’s also as true of your position — based as it is on anonymous ancient testimony unsupported by physical evidence — as of mine. (Again with the double standard, you act as if your reliance on unproven revelation is just a given while the rational view of the universe requires absolute proof.)
But it’s also largely immaterial to this discussion. I don’t argue that anything about the future is 100 percent certain. 99.multiple nines certain in some cases, but never 100 percent. We can never be fully sure what will happen next until it happens and then it’s past.
Understood.
Still, it’s an argument of philosophical theory, not practical reality. It’s not just science that depends on the universe being predictable, it’s everyday life. Everything we do in our daily routines, we do because we know what affects what and how. Taking a shower, cooking an egg, driving a car, writing an article, playing a sport, reading a book, all of these things we can do only because things work in certain ways. Your world view requires a God who actively keeps all the atoms pressed toegther at all times. Mine says God made atoms in a way so that they hold together on their own. An atheist would say atoms just exist and hold together on their own. But all of us sit on a chair assumig it’s not going to dissolve into its constituent atoms and drop us to the floor.
ASALTYDOG: Because this, Steve, is already the point where you lose the debate. Before we even start it.
You want our discussion to start from certain assumptions about science, logic, and ethics. There are understandable and predictable natural laws that govern the ways of the universe. Science. From what we see in nature we can draw certain inferences and further build arguments upon arguments that prove or at least give strong evidence for other truths. Logic. And in this process it is necessary to keep an eye on one’s own ethical integrity, because things like misquoting, misrepresenting, cheating or lying, even “for Jesus”, render the debate meaningless and impossible, and logic entails a moral obligation to accept the conclusion of an argument, once the premises are valid and the argument is sound. Ethics. Then you plan to go ahead and argue from these premises that biblical Christianity is false, Darwinism is true, etc. Fine. Let’s imagine that I agree with all your premises. Then let’s imagine (it’s easy if you try) that the utterly inconceivable happens. You win the debate. Your arguments are so persuasive and devastating that you win me over. I throw away my Bible and become a Darwinist. Now what? Now my friend you need to live with that truth, and one way to get started is to grab a glass of champagne, sit down on your coach, and for celebrating the victory, rewind the tape to the beginning of this debate, to the point where we stand right now, and carefully consider what is actually going on.
So what is going on? You put down the glass of champagne and focus on the sounds and on the images flashing on the screen. You know that the God of the Bible does not exist. You have convinced even me of that. And you consider the beginning of this debate, the scene where we discuss the assumptions about science, logic, ethics, from which we agree to proceed. Science. Logic. Ethics. The laws of nature. The bricks. The wet street. The mountain lion. The bricks.
And then it hits you. If the God of the Bible does not exist, we can’t afford making any of those assumptions about science, logic and ethics which you now see us naively making on the videotape as we get ready for the debate, headed toward your victory. All those assumptions make sense only in a universe where the God of the Bible exists. Can’t be true. Can’t be true. Can’t be true. But of course it is.
Those assumptions all make sense in a universe where observation shows them to be reasonable, whatever the underly
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This particular flavor of tard is an oldy but a goody.
The problem of induction can not be solved unless the god of the bible is true.
It’s a tired argument full of flaws, but when you add the windbag verbosity of one Saul T Dog it’s enough to at least convince himself and the choir.
What you fail to understand Saul is that if you are correct, the problem of induction has been resolved in such a way that it is impossible with or without your particular flavor of Sky Beast.
You’ve just shifted the weight of the argument to an ontological prior that you hold but can not be demonstrated.
Your argument is essentially ‘Laws demand a Law Giver’. It’s tired and flat and ancient and wrong. It may be true, but it does not follow.
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For all the thousands of words its taken up between the Seasoned Canine and me, it comes down to, he’s confusing philosophical certainty and scientific reliability and insisting (wrongly) that they’re the same.
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Erasmus — anyway the evidence that you presented indicates that when the bible says ‘bird’, we dont know if the author is talking about a bat, a pterodactyl, a flying squirrel, a ladybug, a Boeing 747, or your grandmaw in a hang glider.
Roger — That is not what I said, but of course, that is what you heard. Just like many who came before you, when it comes to the Bible, your natural use of language goes into the toilet. This is a case in point.
Whereas we quite naturally use general terms like “bird” for instance, in everyday conversation without demanding scientific precision from each other, you force Moses to say something he didn’t mean.
And you force the term into the mouth of Moses, based on what a translator decided Moses meant, rather on what Moses actually said. You are ignoring the evidence presented that Moses used a Hebrew word that encompasses anything that flies, not just a bird.
If that’s what you want to do, fine. But don’t claim to have any interest in evidence.
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Roger, I’m not the one claiming that there is any scientific precision in anything written in the bible. Inconsistency, thou art the man.
If your bible has errors of this sort, then why not fix it? As it stands, we have statements in the bibles that I own that are clearly wrong. You argue that this is a communication flaw inherent in translations. I say, that’s fine, this is the only bible i have. I’m not interested in learning greek or hebrew. It just undercuts the arguments about ‘no other book like this in history’ blah blah that you get from most inerrantists. So you are not 100% inerrantist, fine. Now begins the slippery slope.
Steve that is one way of putting it. I think he is fully aware of the dichotomy you pose and is just one more of a long line of snake oil peddlers and epistemic charlatans. I prefer to call ‘he is confusing reality with what he deeply wishes to be reality and insisting that every one drink the same kool-aid.’ Fortunately this line of reasoning has been thoroughly trounced by many theologians and christianist philosophers, so it’s not really a threat. I love antirealists, esp when they are christianist presuppositionalists.
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ERASMUS,
“As it stands, we have statements in the bibles that I own that are clearly wrong”
“So you are not 100% inerrantist, fine. Now begins the slippery slope.”
We have statements that have been translated incorrectly. The original language is not wrong and you have been shown evidence for why the bible is not in error. I agree with Roger that you have chosen to ignore that evidence. You say you are not interested in learning Greek or Hebrew. That’s fine but to answer your claim against the Bible, a simple explanation of the Hebrew words is required. The English Standard Version has a note next to “birds” that says “or things that fly; compare to Gen 1:20″. I think I speak for Roger that he is an inerrantist and is not sliding down a slippery slope. I’m also an inerrantist in that God’s Word in the original language is without error. This does not mean that every verse has to be interpreted in a literal sense.
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Erasmus — Roger, I’m not the one claiming that there is any scientific precision in anything written in the bible.
Roger — Who is?
Erasmus — If your bible has errors of this sort, then why not fix it?
Roger — Who said they were Biblical errors? You erred in your trite usage of the Bible. I’d say the errors were yours.
Erasmus — As it stands, we have statements in the bibles that I own that are clearly wrong.
Roger — Again, the error was yours. You erroneously assigned a level of precision to the text that Moses never intended. You can’t blame Moses or the Bible for your mistake.
Erasmus — I say, that’s fine, this is the only bible i have. I’m not interested in learning greek or hebrew. It just undercuts the arguments about ‘no other book like this in history’ blah blah that you get from most inerrantists.
Roger — For some reason, you’ve got the wrong idea about how to read. I suppose we can only blame the school system. But you need to know that learning from a person, whether that person is teaching you orally or through the written word requires the student and/or the reader to engage the material.
As I said earlier, your questions are/were legitimate (even though, after Googling them, I found them to be standard atheist debater’s questions.) Anyone reading the Bible with an inquisitive mind would ask those same questions. And yet, only those who read the text sympathetically, i.e. with a desire to know what Moses actually meant — his objective, intended meaning, would pursue his words in the original language and come to the same understanding that I and the others have. You don’t need to know Hebrew, you just need to have curiosity, and give the author the benefit of a sympathetic reading.
Savedbygrace and I have shown you the evidence. You have no need for it. You already have your mind made up.
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PBS had a great program which covered, not only the Dover Trail (or the “Mystical Creation” fiasco as I like to call it), but the second half covered those issues brought up time and time again by those with a “determined ignorance”, including “transitional forms”.
The more hollow their argument, the more shrill their denial in science and support of the occult. It really is pathetic.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/transitional.html
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STEVEG at #309:
I will break down my answer in parts. This is the first part.
ASALTYDOG: But how do you establish that the behavior of the eggs is subject to a law? That is my question.
STEVEG: How do I know the physical universe behaves as it does because it is subject to laws of nature rather than ongoing divine intervention?
ASALTYDOG: No. Can’t you read? How do you know that the behavior of the eggs is subject to a law. At all. Any law. God’s law, natural law, Steve’s law, federal law. You talk like a pol. . . Are you currently running for President, by any chance?
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STEVEG: Are you now saying that God might well choose to not send your keys to the ground tomorrow? If so, is that not a whim?
ASALTYDOG: I have a sure epistemological foundation for the uniformity of nature in the character of God and his promises. The fact that God may choose to act differently in special occasions serves as a reminder to man that the universe is not governed by an impersonal force or mechanism or law, but it is being governed by a person. The Bible makes it clear that these exceptions are indeed rare exceptions, and that the rule is uniformity. There is a clearly reason for this. It’s not like God would have liked to create an aseptically uniform, tidy universe, but now and then He is forced by some unexpected problem to reluctantly renounce to His own ideal and cause an unfortunate exception. Nor is the reason His inability to control Himself. Rather, this balance between uniformity and “miracles” is a standing testimony to the wisdom of God. If He had designed an universe of constant flat uniformity, with no “miracles” and no “exceptions”, we would not have had any understanding of His total sovereign control over nature even if He had told us about it.
“You know Peter,”, said Jesus, “I am God. I am really controlling everything here. Everything obeys me. The rivers, the trees, the grass, the stars, the clouds, the animals. They all do whatever I tell them to do.”
“Cool,” says Peter, “You mean you can tell that river over there to float upstream? You mean you can walk on water, and stuff like that?”
“No, I can’t do that kind of things.”
“Why? I thought you said you can.”
“No, I have chosen to make everything behave in precisely the way you observe right now. No exceptions.”
“Well,” said Judas, who was overhearing the conversation, “you’re wrong! I am God. I am the one who is making everything behave in precisely the way you observe right now. Prove me wrong!”
“Come on Judas,” smiled Jesus, “you know you are lying! You know perfectly well you are not controlling anything right now.”
“How do we know you are not lying?” asked Judas.
“Great,” sighed Peter, “I’m having a beer with two guys claiming to be Gods, and there is no way I can tell who’s lying. Actually wait a minute. You guys should worship me! I am God!”
But the real God shows us what His sovereignty is like. He comes down, He walks on water, and He tells the storm to stop. Then He tells us He is the sovereign Lord of Creation, and we understand what that means. If on the other hand God had planned a universe with no uniformity, where things keep on happening in random, chaotic ways, with no apparent rhyme and reason, no pattern, and no similarities, not only we wouldn’t have been able to carry out His mandate to submit the earth, but we would likewise have been unable to understand what the sovereignty of God over nature means. Such a universe would display only “miracles”. But miracles fill us with awe and grab our attention for the precise reason that we live in a world where uniformity is the rule. In a chaotic world, miracles fail to grab our attention for the simple reason that they don’t exist. If everything is miraculous, then nothing is. Chaos would be the “rule”. So also in this case history and creation would fail to point to God’s sovereignty over nature. His glorious sovereignty would have gone unrecognised. The times when God chooses to act differently are not random, irrational, mechanical, accidental, meaningless, purposeless, unmotivated, exceptions. Behind them there is a reason, a purpose, a design, a rationale. This may be known to God only, but it is there, and occasionally it has been revealed to us. Indeed, it has been revealed enough times that we have learned to see some pattern even in the “exceptions”.
This state of affairs in Christianity is not at all like in your worldview. We have a rationale, a justification, a warrant for assuming the uniformity of nature, and you don’t. Even leaving room for the freedom of God to act in exceptional ways, we can still provide an epistemological warrant for expecting, as a rule, that things keep on behaving, and will behave, in similar ways, for seasons to go through cycles, and for your keys to keep dropping to the floor. Yes, we do leave room to God’s “whim”. But this “whim” is consistent with other aspects of God’s character, like His covenantal faithfulness and His mercy. It is not irrational and purposeless. It does not cancel the other aspects of God’s personality. It is not aimed at destroying our perception of God’s sovereignty over nature: on the contrary, it is aimed at enhancing it. You may think my “God’s whim” has the same role your “exceptions” have in your worldview, so that our worldviews are indistinguishable. You may think that if I say “God’s whim” is okay, then I must grant that your concept of “tentative natural laws with possible exceptions” is also okay. If I have warrant for believing in the uniformity of nature in spite of “God’s whim”, why can’t you also have that warrant in spite of the possible exceptions to your laws? The reason why this logic is flawed is that differently from you I get started and I do possess an objective warrant for assuming the uniformity of nature. You on the other hand never get started. There is never a moment in your logic in which you can stop and tell me, “See? This is where I get warrant for assuming the uniformity of nature.” So my answer is that yes, there is a place for “God’s whim” in my theology. Far from destroying the epistemological warrant I have for assuming the uniformity of nature, it serves the purpose of stressing, rather than calling into question, the sovereignty of God over creation. “God’s whim” therefore turns out to be evidence that I do have a warrant. Now if that doesn’t make you envious of my worldview, nothing will.
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STEVEG: Your demand for 100 percent certainty is not valid. We know that things work in certain ways whenever we observe them. We therefore assume they will continue to work that way, and lo and behold, they do. My world view is quite content to rely on repeated and repeatable observations to understand how the world works. The demand for 100 percent proof and observation of all possible instances of a phenomenon is your own invention. Whether it’s possible to ever know something with 100 percent certainty has occupied philosophers for millennia, but science does not require that standard.
ASALTDOG: You brainlessly repeat the same nonsense without interacting with my criticism. I have nothing new to say here, except this. In spite of your whining, it is epistemologically an inescapable must to have 100% certainty about the uniformity of nature. To ask for less and still have the warranty does not make any sense whatsoever. Logic doesn’t make discounts or special offers. If your worldview doesn’t give you 100% certainty in this area, your worldview sucks. Change it immediately with a worldview that does give you that certainty. The only alternative is to commit scientific, ethical, and logical suicide. It is not true that nobody can achieve 100% certainty. I do have 100% certainty for my warrant about the uniformity of nature. The Word of God is 100% sure. Not 50%, not 75%, not 99%, but 100% sure. That and only that makes science possible.
Incidentally, I didn’t write nor mean nor imply that you called me a moron, and I am sorry if you received that impression. If I want to complain about something you call me, I quote you verbatim. It was a reference to something one often hears in these discussions. While we are at it, Erasmus, since I am sure you are reading this, I accept your apologies for calling me a moron.
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STEVEG: Homologies are one of several physical signs of relationship between different organisms. (Other signs are in the genes.)
ASALTYDOG: Irrelevant. You do not address my concerns. The genes are also irrelevant to my concerns.
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STEVEG: The “competing creationist claim” doesn’t compete at all, scientifically … once you invoke a deity, you’re outside of science. (That’s not to say it’s not true, it’s just beyond the scope of science to consider or demonstrate).
ASALTYDOG: Conveniently defining terms so as to be able to win a debate by definition does not change the fact that you do not have a basis for science and I do. How can the fact that I am the only one here who has a basis for science disqualify me for being scientific is hilarious. You could just as legitimately come to my house and show me the door.
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STEVEG: And you do not understand convergent evolution if you think it is a challenge to common descent. Convergent evolution is a different aspect of the same evolutionary theory.
ASALTYDOG: And you do not understand my point. Or pretend not to. You have repeatedly claimed homologies as evidence of common descent, which in turn you claim as evidence against creationism. But you must grant that even within your model homologies are not necessarily evidence of common descent. If so, you must grant that even within your model homologies are not necessarily evidence against creationism.
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STEVEG: . . . where is your evidence that God DID do this, or for that matter, that God even exists? You are quick to accuse others of logic errors and don’t recognize your own question begging?
ASALTYDOG: Genesis chapter 1 for instance.
STEVEG: Which is evidence only that the Hebrews had their own creation myth, just as every other ancient culture did. It is not in any way evidence that the story is true.
ASALTYDOG: Only if you interpret that from your worldview. From within my worldview, that’s persuasive evidence. It’s time for you to learn doing an internal criticism of a worldview. As you can see, creationists and evolutionists keep on throwing at each other pieces of “evidence” that are easily dismissed by the competing worldview crowd. They are dismissed because they are been processed by the competing worldview and interpreted accordingly. Pieces of evidence that sound compelling enough when seen from within a worldview cease sounding compelling when seen from within the competing worldview. This often brings frustration to both parties. The only way to overcome this standoff is to quit this children’s game and try doing internal criticism of the other guy’s worldview. You assume for the sake of discussion that my worldview is correct, and you see if everything makes sense when seen from inside. I do the same with your worldview. If a worldview is internally inconsistent, or if it fails to provide the preconditions for what it claims to accomplish, it’s an impossible, suicidal worldview to hold. This is my proof for Christianity, and it’s a proof from the impossibility of the contrary. As I have shown, your worldview is internally absurd. It fails to provide the preconditions for what it claims to accomplish. It spells the death of logic, ethics and science, while trying to use logic, ethics and science as tools to attack its neighbors. It is a parasite worldview, since you are using tools provided to you by Christianity in order to argue your case. Now you may do the same to me. Step inside, look around, assume for the sake of discussion the truth of Christianity, and tell me if Christianity is internally inconsistent. Does it make internal sense? Is it internally absurd? Does it fail to provide the preconditions for what it claims to accomplish? Does it internally provide science, logic and ethics an epistemological justification? Is it a parasite worldview, unable to provide the tools it needs to argue its own truth? You tell me.
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SBG, Roger, thanks for your time.
Young earthers and evolution deniers are demanding scientific precision from words in the bible. not me. perhaps that is not you, although I know SBG is an evolution denier while maybe not a young earther.
But while what you say (original words are true) might be true, these aren’t the original words in the bible. So, you have added unto and taken away from, just as the bible says not to do. It seems that in order for the bible to function as it was intended (according to the inspired inerrant claim, by God) it must be in the original language. Clearly no one does this.
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Fossilization is a rare process and sparsely samples prehistoric populations. No dinosaur fossils were even identified in the west more than 200 years ago! Yet, todays collections show a clear trend. Inference from the fossil records supports evolution and indisputably falsifies special creationism.
Creationists repeat their “no missing links” mantra as if that makes it true, but there’s a clear sequence of fossils with transitional characteristics between ape and human, for example. Are these an exact ancestral line? Perhaps not – more to be discovered – but they show the gradation of features spread across branching lineages, one of which led to us.
Creationists insist that these fossils are either ape or human but not intermediate. But a funny thing: THEY CAN’T AGREE ON WHICH ARE THE APE AND WHICH ARE THE HUMAN FOSSILS. Why? Because these are actual intermediate forms with characteristrics of both. Here’s a chart that shows discordant creationist fossil interpretations of transitional hominid fossils:
Creationist Interpretation of Transitional Fossils.
Creationists who claim the fossils disagree with evolution – like Duane Gish and Harrison – are either liars, ignorant, or insane, but they’re definitely not right!
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ERASMUS,
“these aren’t the original words in the bible.”
The Hebrew word that is translated “bird” is “‘owph”. That is the original word in the bible and it means “flying animal” and correctly applies to bats. There is nothing added or taken away from the original words. How many times do we have to repeat this until you cry uncle? You referred to these as worn out examples and now we are seeing the reason.
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SaltyDog at #317:
This state of affairs in Christianity is not at all like in your worldview. We have a rationale, a justification, a warrant for assuming the uniformity of nature, and you don’t. Even leaving room for the freedom of God to act in exceptional ways, we can still provide an epistemological warrant for expecting, as a rule, that things keep on behaving, and will behave, in similar ways, for seasons to go through cycles, and for your keys to keep dropping to the floor.
You are confusing philosophical certainty with scientific reliability.
You have some need to believe that things are 100 percent certain, and you have bought into a worldview that allows you to imagine that they are and give you a reason to say so.
That is not a necessary requirement for science. (And you can insist it is as loudly as you like, science will proceed apace without worry.) Science deals in what can be observed, and what can be observed includes the knowledge that keys fall to the ground when dropped every time. If you invoke Hume and ask, how can you know they will the next time, a scientist will say, well if they don’t, we’ll have a problem. But unless that happens, it’s not relevant.
My worldview, which you continually insist on misrepresenting, accounts for uniformity of nature just as well as yours does. Better, in fact. However, one’s philosophical/theological basis for explaining uniformity of nature is not relevant to the real-world activity that goes on under the assumption that nature behaves in ways we can count on.
Rather, this balance between uniformity and “miracles” is a standing testimony to the wisdom of God. If He had designed an universe of constant flat uniformity, with no “miracles” and no “exceptions”, we would not have had any understanding of His total sovereign control over nature even if He had told us about it.
Nothing about my worldview, which you clearly don’t really understand, demands “no exceptions.”
This state of affairs in Christianity is not at all like in your worldview. We have a rationale, a justification, a warrant for assuming the uniformity of nature, and you don’t.
I do, and I’ve explained it several times now. Are you choosing not to understand it, or are you just unable to?
It is not true that nobody can achieve 100% certainty. I do have 100% certainty for my warrant about the uniformity of nature. The Word of God is 100% sure. Not 50%, not 75%, not 99%, but 100% sure. That and only that makes science possible.
Your assertion about your belief in your book is evidence of nothing. It only shows you believe it. So what?
And you do not understand my point. Or pretend not to. You have repeatedly claimed homologies as evidence of common descent, which in turn you claim as evidence against creationism. But you must grant that even within your model homologies are not necessarily evidence of common descent.
The fact that you phrase that like it’s some kind of concession or admission of a shameful secret shows you really don’t get it. Nobody ever said homologies are always caused by common descent. Common descent is one way in which homologies occur, but not the only one, and no one but you considers that to be of any import.
If so, you must grant that even within your
model homologies are not necessarily evidence against creationism.
No I don’t. Common descent and convergent evolution are both well accounted for in evolutionary theory. The fact that both exist in no way weakens the theory.
This is another case where you’re demanding a standard that no one but you thinks is important.
This often brings frustration to both parties. The only way to overcome this standoff is to quit this children’s game and try doing internal criticism of the other guy’s worldview. You assume for the sake of discussion that my worldview is correct, and you see if everything makes sense when seen from inside. I do the same with your worldview. If a worldview is internally inconsistent, or if it fails to provide the preconditions for what it claims to accomplish, it’s an impossible, suicidal worldview to hold. This is my proof for Christianity, and it’s a proof from the impossibility of the contrary.
Where did Cain’s wife come from, when Adam, Eve and the late Abel were the only people on Earth at the time?
That question alone demolishes your claim of the perfect internal consistency of the Bible story. So does the Bible’s clear statement that the God you insist stays constantly active to sustain everything gets tired and needs to put His feet up now and then.
Secondly, your worldview is incoherent because despite your repeated claims to the contrary, it does not accord with the evidence of the outside world. The fossil record does not show the sort of scattering that the panic of the Great Flood would have caused, as you described in an earlier message. Methods of measuring the age of the Earth do not ever indicate an age of only a few thousand years.
If you honestly think the data can be interpreted either way, you are getting your information from liars.
And thirdly, your insistence on internal consistency doesn’t say anything about why a person can’t adopt the worldview of the Koran or the Scientologists or JRR Tolkien’s fantasy universe. All of those are perfectly internally consistent–moreso than the Bible in fact, at least in Tolkien’s case.
Step inside, look around, assume for the sake of discussion the truth of Christianity, and tell me if Christianity is internally inconsistent. Does it make internal sense? Is it internally absurd?
It does have internal inconsistencies (why does an omniscient God need to send emissaries to see if what He’s heard about Sodom is accurate, or to find out whether there are any righteous men there?) but far more important, it doesn’t match the real world, at least not in the matter of Creation.
Contrary to your repeated assertions, the physical evidence does not support Biblical creation equally well as it does evolution. You are either woefully misinformed or in willful denial to continue to insist that it does.
You could construct any story you like about how the world came to be and make it as internally consistent as you want to. If is discordant with observed reality, it cannot be true.
Does it fail to provide the preconditions for what it claims to accomplish? Does it internally provide science, logic and ethics an epistemological justification? Is it a parasite worldview, unable to provide the tools it needs to argue its own truth? You tell me.
Try the same thought experiment with Tolkien’s Silmarillion. You’ll find it passes that test even better than the Bible does.
I await your next series of postings about the elves and orcs of the ancient world.
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I’m still waiting for the “mystical creationists” reason for “fossils”. You would think that they would be all “jumbled” together after the “Great Flood”, but we know that isn’t the case. My two favorite “theories”, God put them there to let us know what creatures on other planets look like.
Second, dog is God’s best friend. Which is why he put bones in the ground. To give dogs something to dig up and chew on.
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#322 Well there’s always the “ecological niche” theory (which doesn’t work at all) and the “animals differentially racing to higher ground” theory (which also doesn’t work at all) and the “hydrological sorting” theory (which also doesn’t work at all).
Why put these forward if they don’t work? Cause creationists don’t know a dang thang about the rock record. They make a cartoon image of the geologic column the way they want it to be and then make up reasons for it.
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STEVEG has Harrison nailed above, but I would just like to suggest to the almighty Harrison that he learn his paleontology from a paleontologist, not liars like Duane Gish (and associated derivatives). Harrison, do yourself and all of us a favor – take some time off and go read:
Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters by Donald Prothero.
PLEASE either read this before making any more embarassingly stupid comments about the fossil record.
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BTW, really complete and gradual fossil sequences exist for invertebrates and micro-fossils, the staples of the oil industry. Creatures from regimes where there was continuous deposition on the sea floor for long periods of time show exactly the kind of thing creationists claim is necessary to demonstrate evolution.
And that is why they never talk about them!
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STEVEG at #309
Steve, this is part two of my reply. Part one is at #317.
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ASALTYDOG: “Plus it is impossible that God does not exist. The God of the Bible exists necessarily.”
STEVEG: Then it shouldn’t be hard for you to produce some evidence of such. Actual evidence, I mean, not another unsupported assertion.
ASALTYDOG: I am doing that all the time. If God didn’t exist it wouldn’t be possible to prove anything at all. But some things can be proved. Therefore God must exist.
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STEVEG: Do you really not understand the absurdity of demanding iron clad proof from me, but assuming you can make bald faith claims and expect that to pass as suffiient proof of yours?
ASALTYDOG: I am giving you simple, but correct answers. I am proving that my worldview is internally consistent. Your questions are as close as you have got so far to testing my worldview for internal consistency. I think I am passing the test, but your questions were really easy. I admit that in order to test your worldview for internal consistency I went for the jugular. The poor thing is bleeding to death in the rain right now. As for your allegation that there has been a unfair disparity of standards, read below at the end of this post.
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ASALTYDOG: And furthermore, you are not an atheist, are you? Didn’t you say you believe some God may well exist? But if so, why doesn’t THAT prove to you that the evolutionistic argument from homologies is flawed? As a theist, how could you have bought that as evidence for evolution?
STEVEG: You should try reading some actual science. There is a lot more weight to the evidence for evolution than the physical resemblance of organisms’ bodies.
ASALTYDOG: In other words, again you implicitly concede that the argument for evolution from homologies is logically unsound. I can’t help asking you then why you chose it as the very first argument you brought in this forum when you tried to convince creationists of the truth of evolution.
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STEVEG: I do believe in God. I believe God used evolution as the mechanism for Creation. Science explores and explains the how, theology answers the why.
ASALTYDOG: So how does theology in your religion answer the why? And before I think of a list of easy questions for your theologians, could you explain how they come up with the answers? Do they read tea leaves?
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ASALTYDOG: There is no need for me to come along with my biblical creationism in order to make you reconsider the argument from homologies. Your own world view includes the possibility of a God. And with the possibility of a God comes the possibility of intelligent design to explain the homologies in nature.
STEVEG: It does. But the existence of a possible alternative does not prove the alternative to be the correct answer.
ASALTYDOG: Now watch carefully how you forgot which way the river is flowing downstream. It was you who first brought homologies to us as evidence for evolution. I showed how it was a flawed argument. That was all I wanted to say about homologies. You agreed. Now you act as if I am trying to bring homologies to you as evidence for creationism. While homologies certainly are evidence for creationism, and you will certainly consider them as such after you are baptized, I have never pushed that argument. My approach throughout has never been to throw at you evidence which I know you can easily process through your worldview, reinterpret accordingly, and dismiss as unpersuasive. You keep on throwing pillows at me, which don’t hurt me in the least. You want me to join in the battle. You shout at me, “Come on, throw a pillow at me! Here I am! Come on!” You are frustrated that I am not throwing any. That’s because I believe this is a children’s game where no one really gets hurt. Rather, I want to move both the focus of the debate and my laser beam (not a toy) to the real fatal weakness of your worldview. You don’t like that. You want to play with pillows. But I mean business.
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STEVEG: It [biblical creationism?] also isn’t science. If I believe that God specifically designed some aspects of life, I would not argue that that could ever be scientifically demonstrated. Science is limited, by definition, to the natural. The interventions of deities, even if they happen, are not part of its sphere.
ASALTYDOG: You don’t know what you are talking about. If you really believed in biblical creationism, you would also believe in a host of other things related to that. One thing you would believe is that you can’t let outsiders to your religion determine and define for you what science can and cannot do. Especially those outsiders who like to talk about science but can’t provide a foundation for talking about it. Another thing you would believe is that God gives you the warrant for assuming the uniformity of nature, which in turn makes science possible, and so you would believe that you cannot detach God from science without dynamiting the house you just bought. And another thing you would believe is that every single horse, every single duck, every atom and every star, every leaf that trembles, every hair, every sparrow falling, and every grain of sand, makes sense only if you draw a line that connects it to the Creator. If you were a biblical creationist, you would reverently call theology “the Queen of the Sciences”, and you would gratefully define science as “Thinking God’s Thoughts after Him”.
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ASALTYDOG: Before you conceded my point, your only objection to my argument was that I can’t prove God exists. That is, you implicitly admitted (as you eventually admitted also explicitly) that to allow the possibility of a God in the picture destroys that particular piece of evidence for evolution. But why did you object about the possibility of a God? You claimed to believe in the possibility of a God. Only a pure atheist can speak like you do in these paragraphs. But you are not an atheist, are you?
STEVEG: I believe a God exists. I do not claim to know God exists. Further, I do not believe in special revelation. God has revealed himself in the creation–universally, the same way for all people–and not in the ancient scriptures of the Hebrews or any other culture. He has left it to us to discover the hows of creation. What we have discovered is evolution. Ergo, this is the process God chose to create. God could have done it another way, but did not.
ASALTYDOG: You refuse to answer my “why” question in the context I describe. Then you tell us something interesting about your religion and your God. Since you do not believe in special revelation, how do you know that your God has not revealed himself? I mean, he didn’t tell you about it, otherwise you would believe in special revelation. “Not in the ancient scriptures of the Hebrews or any other culture” – that’s a pretty strong claim. How do you know it’s true without some sort of divine revelation? “He has left it to us to discover the hows of creation.” How do you know anything about God’s intentions? How do you know this God even has intentions? You talk about him as if he was a person, but how do you know he’s personal? How do you know God “could have done it another way”?
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STEVEG: Therefore, I ask you for evidence of sudden special creation because all the evidence available shows it didn’t happen that way. If you want to convince me it did, it will take more than a reference to Genesis.
ASALTYDOG: But Steve, Genesis is the special revelation of the true God, without whom you cannot even get started with talking intelligibly about scientific evidences. Believe in Him, and you will understand. Also, I ask you again for evidence for the existence of natural laws, because given your worldview all the evidence available shows only that stuff happens. If you want to convince me otherwise, it will take more than dropping keys to the parking lot.
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STEVEG: I believe nature is predictable because God designed it to be predictable. I do not believe that God has to take proactive action in order for the planet to keep rotating or for my keys to fall, which you keep insisting he does.
ASALTYDOG: God, eh? How do you know that God designed nature to be predictable? On what grounds do you deny that God has to take proactive action in order for the planet to keep rotating or for your keys to fall? How do you know there is a God?
STEVEG: I don’t know there is a God. Neither do you. You know there are scriptures about God. You have settled on the ones you wish to believe and, of necessity, excluded all others.
ASALTYDOG: I do know there is God, and so do you. And I don’t mean “a” God, I mean the true God, the only God, the God of the Bible. Your ceaseless, unstoppable, indeed inescapable use of logic, ethics and science is a constant testimony to your unshakable faith in Him. Sure, it’s a belief you despise and keep hidden in the attic for shame. You hate Him, but you can’t kick Him out of your house, because you need Him every second.
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STEVEG: I believe God has designed nature to be predictable because nature is predictable. If there is a God, ergo, God made it that way.
ASALTYDOG: But Steve, this presupposes that your God created the world. How do you know he created the world?
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STEVEG: If we’re both wrong and there isn’t a God, then it just is like that. Either way, it is. On what grounds do you insist that God has to take proactive action for the planet to keep rotating? Don’t say, as you did last time I asked, “because I’m a Christian.” What is it about being a Chrisian that requires your denial of an orderly universe?
ASALTYDOG: I already told you. I am a Christian, I believe in God and I believe His Word. I believe that God has to take proactive action for the planet to keep rotating because that’s what He says He does. I do believe the universe is orderly. I don’t believe the universe can be orderly apart from God’s proactive action.
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ASALTYDOG: As for God possibly creating a brain full of false memories, you may just as well ask, “What if God lies about being the Creator of the world?” This kind of objection boils down to simply asking me why I believe what He says. How do I know that God won’t act out of character? Because He said He will not. How do I know that He is the Creator of the world? Because He said so. You may refuse to believe Him. But that is not an objection to my world view. You have shown no internal inconsistencies or absurdities in God’s Word. Like Satan talking to Eve, you have merely asked me why I don’t reject His Word. My answer is, “Because the Lord my God has been good to me. Because I have an obligation to believe the Word of my Creator. Because I have no reason to doubt His Word. Because rejecting His Word would make no sense whatsoever. Because it would be such an evil thing to do.”
STEVEG: Well and good. But none of that is evidence of anything except that you’ve chosen to believe it. I can show you that your keys always fall when dropped, and you can show yourself. You can’t show me that Satan ever spoke to Eve–or indeed, that Satan exists or Eve existed– not with any more likelihood to be true than I can show you a story of Jupiter sneaking around behind Hera’s back to romance the human women. (A real rascal, that Jupiter.)
ASALTYDOG: Whoa, Steve, I just answered a question there. You have nothing to add to the topic at hand, so I guess I gave a persuasive answer.
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STEVEG: You assume the existence of a God you can’t prove and then assert that the belief is evidence against science. There is not much to say to someone with such an evidence-free conviction of things.
ASALTYDOG: You are begging the question. You are saying that evolution must be true, because the alternative, that there is a God, is not proved. I could say (and in fact I do say) the same thing about you: “Creation must be true, because your alternative, that evolution has happened, is not proved; you assume the existence of an evolution you can’t prove and then assert that that belief is evidence against creationism.” Now what?
STEVEG: Nope. I am saying that evolution is probably true because the evidence supports it. It’s not that Creationism is not proved. It’s that there’s no evidence to support the sudden appearance of all life in a span of days a few thousand years ago, and there is ample evidence to contradict that idea.
ASALTYDOG: Now wait a minute. You complain that I misrepresent your view. You believe evolution is “probably true”, not “must be true”. You are right, and I apologize about that. Mine was meant as a rough description of your view. But it’s irrelevant to my particular argument here. I could have written “is probably true.” My point still stands even after your correction. But then you proceed to misrepresent my view. You say, “It’s not that Creationism is not proved.” But I didn’t write “creationism”. I wrote “because the alternative, that there is a God, is not proved.” And I wrote that because you wrote “You assume the existence of a God you can’t prove”. Now if we go back to my original post #265, where this particular exchange was given more context than you provide here, we see that your present subtle change was not accidental nor innocent. When read in context, my use of the word “God” was crucial to my point. Not only that, but despite your complaints I was exactly right in saying that you beg the question in that particular context. Cutting the dialogue as you do makes it seem like I am making a claim that misrepresents your position. But I was actually interacting with what you were saying before. I went to read that section carefully, and I stand with what I wrote above.
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ASALTYDOG: I have been listening to you very carefully. How did you get the impression I have not? Why the whining? What is upsetting you? That I ask you questions? That I investigate about your world view? That I check whether your position makes internal sense? Do you want me to remove my brain and be converted in spite of my doubts, and against my conscience?
STEVEG: You demand my position not just make “internal sense,” but that I be able to prove it beyond all possible doubt.
ASALTYDOG: You confuse things. I did not demand that you provide absolute certainty for the truth of your position as such (well, not yet), but that you provide absolute certainty for assuming the uniformity of nature. That is a perfectly fair and reasonable demand.
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STEVEG: Then to defend your own view, you offer me Genesis and an unsupported assertion that the God of the Bible must exist, just because. You are applying very different standards to the two points of view. Mine requires (to you) exhaustive evidence and absolute certainity, while yours can be based on unevidenced belief. I am not upset, I am bemused about how to approach someone with such an unbalanced and biased methodology. And it is not “whining,” it is a reasoned and cogent objection to your methods. I am sorry if you don’t like the idea of being held to the same standard you demand of those who disagree with you.
ASALTYDOG: On the contrary, my friend, I am very happy about being held to the same standard. Because that’s the moment when I win the debate. You see, I have already told you how I do provide, from within my worldview, absolute, 100% certainty for assuming the uniformity of nature. Why, God’s Word is 100% certain. He said nature is uniform, and that is therefore absolutely certain.
And “exhaustive knowledge” is indeed needed for absolute certainty about the uniformity of nature, and that absolute certainty is needed for science. Therefore my demand is perfectly fair and reasonable. You admit that from within your worldview you cannot provide that exhaustive knowledge, and you complain that the same standard and the same demands should apply also to me. But from within my worldview I can provide that exhaustive knowledge. Why, God has that exhaustive knowledge. That is precisely why He can be trusted when He says that nature is uniform. What I demand from you, is what you, from within your worldview, cannot provide, and what I, from within my worldview, can. The very same standard applies to both. Your worldview sucks. My worldview makes science possible. You lose. I win.
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You lose. I win.
See #321 to find out why you couldn’t be more wrong.
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STEVEG: You assume the existence of a God you can’t prove and then assert that the belief is evidence against science. There is not much to say to someone with such an evidence-free conviction of things.
ASALTYDOG: You are begging the question. You are saying that evolution must be true, because the alternative, that there is a God, is not proved. I could say (and in fact I do say) the same thing about you: “Creation must be true, because your alternative, that evolution has happened, is not proved; you assume the existence of an evolution you can’t prove and then assert that that belief is evidence against creationism.” Now what?
STEVEG: Nope. I am saying that evolution is probably true because the evidence supports it. It’s not that Creationism is not proved. It’s that there’s no evidence to support the sudden appearance of all life in a span of days a few thousand years ago, and there is ample evidence to contradict that idea.
ASALTYDOG: Now wait a minute. You complain that I misrepresent your view. You believe evolution is “probably true”, not “must be true”. You are right, and I apologize about that. Mine was meant as a rough description of your view. But it’s irrelevant to my particular argument here. I could have written “is probably true.” My point still stands even after your correction. But then you proceed to misrepresent my view. You say, “It’s not that Creationism is not proved.” But I didn’t write “creationism”.
No, you made the even greater mistake of suggesting the existence of God is “the alternative” to evolution, as if both can’t be true.
I then redirected the conversation to the narrow point under discussion, evolution or Creationism. The existence or non-existence of God is not inherent to one of those and the antithesis of the other. God’s existence permits either of those. God’s non-existence would eliminate sudden Creation, you’re right about that, but God’s existence does not eliminate evolution.
Now if we go back to my original post #265, where this particular exchange was given more context than you provide here, we see that your present subtle change was not accidental nor innocent.
No, it was an effort to keep you from roaming all over the map.
My complaint — try to follow this — back in #265 was, and remains, that your whole argument against the science of evolution is that you believe in “a God you can’t prove.” That is, you assert the existence of God, and more precisely, your particular idea of God, as proof that Genesis 1 happened just as the Bible says.
So I did NOT say that “evolution must be true [or even probable], because the alternative, that there is a God, is not proved.” You have completely misunderstood the argument or, if you have understood it, are misrepresenting it here.
As I said in the quoted matter above, I believe evolutionary theory is the most probable explanation because all of the physical evidence supports it, and does not support the Bible story (even if seen through the filter of a believer.)
See me at #321 and Spinoza at #322-325 for more on why.
Now watch carefully how you forgot which way the river is flowing downstream. It was you who first brought homologies to us as evidence for evolution. I showed how it was a flawed argument. That was all I wanted to say about homologies. You agreed.
Why do you persist in misrepresenting this. I NEVER said homologies are “a flawed argument.” Your original question about homologies, back in #86, was:
And as an evolutionist, why do you deduce common descent from the homologies you have shown us? Why can’t those homologies be evidence of convergent evolution? Just curious.
And I agreed they can be. What I didn’t realize at the time was that you apparently have the misconception that convergent evolution is somehow a rival or a challenge to common descent. It is not.
Now that this has been explained to you several times, please stop misunderstanding it.
I already told you. I am a Christian, I believe in God and I believe His Word. I believe that God has to take proactive action for the planet to keep rotating because that’s what He says He does. I do believe the universe is orderly. I don’t believe the universe can be orderly apart from God’s proactive action.
Yeah yeah. You BELIEVE this and you BELIEVE that and you can’t show objective evidence for any of it and therefore you win the debate? Have you ever seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail? Was the Black Knight your hero?
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STEVEG at #321
As for your comments on certainty and fairness of standards, see my latest post at #326.
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STEVEG: My worldview, which you continually insist on misrepresenting, accounts for uniformity of nature just as well as yours does. Better, in fact.
ASALTYDOG: How have I continually insisted on misrepresenting your worldview? How does your worldview account for uniformity of nature? You don’t say, and on the very next sentence you already equivocate, and switch terms from “to account” to “to explain”.
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ASALTYDOG: Rather, this balance between uniformity and “miracles” is a standing testimony to the wisdom of God. If He had designed an universe of constant flat uniformity, with no “miracles” and no “exceptions”, we would not have had any understanding of His total sovereign control over nature even if He had told us about it.
STEVEG: Nothing about my worldview, which you clearly don’t really understand, demands “no exceptions.”
ASALTYDOG: You miss my point by a long shot, as I was explaining the mixture of uniformity and miracles in Christianity.
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ASALTYDOG: This state of affairs in Christianity is not at all like in your worldview. We have a rationale, a justification, a warrant for assuming the uniformity of nature, and you don’t.
STEVEG: I do, and I’ve explained it several times now. Are you choosing not to understand it, or are you just unable to?
ASALTYDOG: Now Steve that sounds pathetic. You are desperately just banging your fist on the table and raising your voice. No, you still don’t have a justification for assuming the uniformity of nature, and no, you haven’t explained it even once. The only thing you have repeated is that you don’t need a justification. But you do.
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ASALTYDOG: It is not true that nobody can achieve 100% certainty. I do have 100% certainty for my warrant about the uniformity of nature. The Word of God is 100% sure. Not 50%, not 75%, not 99%, but 100% sure. That and only that makes science possible.
STEVEG: Your assertion about your belief in your book is evidence of nothing. It only shows you believe it. So what?
ASALTYDOG: It shows that Christianity has the warrant for science. Do you want to have the warrant for science? Become a Christian.
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ASALTYDOG: And you do not understand my point. Or pretend not to. You have repeatedly claimed homologies as evidence of common descent, which in turn you claim as evidence against creationism. But you must grant that even within your model homologies are not necessarily evidence of common descent.
STEVEG: The fact that you phrase that like it’s some kind of concession or admission of a shameful secret shows you really don’t get it. Nobody ever said homologies are always caused by common descent. Common descent is one way in which homologies occur, but not the only one, and no one but you considers that to be of any import.
ASALTYDOG: I insist on this because you consistently keep on evading my point. You do that here as well. You run toward the forest, but I am running after you with my dogs. “Nobody ever said homologies are always caused by common descent”, eh? “Common descent is one way in which homologies occur, but not the only one”, eh? Exactly! So why use them to show evidence of common descent to creationists?
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ASALTYDOG: If so, you must grant that even within your
model homologies are not necessarily evidence against creationism.
STEVEG: No I don’t. Common descent and convergent evolution are both well accounted for in evolutionary theory. The fact that both exist in no way weakens the theory. This is another case where you’re demanding a standard that no one but you thinks is important.
ASALTYDOG: You ignore my point and misrepresent my words. I didn’t say that common descent and convergent evolution are NOT both well accounted for in evolutionary theory. I said that you must grant that even within your model homologies, not being necessarily evidence of common descent, are not necessarily evidence against creationism.
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STEVEG: Where did Cain’s wife come from, when Adam, Eve and the late Abel were the only people on Earth at the time?
ASALTYDOG: The Bible does not say that “Adam, Eve and the late Abel were the only people on Earth at the time”. On the contrary, it says that there was also, at least, Cain’s wife.
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STEVEG: That question alone demolishes your claim of the perfect internal consistency of the Bible story. So does the Bible’s clear statement that the God you insist stays constantly active to sustain everything gets tired and needs to put His feet up now and then.
ASALTYDOG: No, that question demonstrates you don’t know how to do an internal critique of a worldview, or that you can’t read the Bible, or both. And Cain’s wife was obviously a daughter, or possibly a granddaughter, of Adam and Eve.
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STEVEG: Secondly, your worldview is incoherent because despite your repeated claims to the contrary, it does not accord with the evidence of the outside world. The fossil record does not show the sort of scattering that the panic of the Great Flood would have caused, as you described in an earlier message.
ASALTYDOG: How so? Do you know exactly what sort of scattering the panic of the Great Flood would have caused? And I am not making any claims about that.
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STEVEG: Methods of measuring the age of the Earth do not ever indicate an age of only a few thousand years.
ASALTYDOG: Wrong. Some do and some don’t. The ones that give the wrong age are called unreliable. Read some history of how and why we arrived at current methods and figures. Methods are based on assumptions. If the Bible is right, and a method’s assumptions are inconsistent with the Bible, then the method will very probably give results that are false. To say that that method proves the Bible wrong is to beg the question.
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STEVEG: If you honestly think the data can be interpreted either way, you are getting your information from liars.
ASALTYDOG: Are you 100% sure about that? And let me get this straight. what’s wrong with lying, Steve?
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STEVEG: And thirdly, your insistence on internal consistency doesn’t say anything about why a person can’t adopt the worldview of the Koran or the Scientologists or JRR Tolkien’s fantasy universe. All of those are perfectly internally consistent–moreso than the Bible in fact, at least in Tolkien’s case.
ASALTYDOG: Islam is a Christian heresy, and it is internally inconsistent. Scientology can be easily demolished with an internal critique. Tolkien was a Christian, and his fictional world is not set in competition with Christianity — nor does it provide the preconditions for the workability of science, logic and ethics.
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ASALTYDOG: Step inside, look around, assume for the sake of discussion the truth of Christianity, and tell me if Christianity is internally inconsistent. Does it make internal sense? Is it internally absurd?
STEVEG: It does have internal inconsistencies (why does an omniscient God need to send emissaries to see if what He’s heard about Sodom is accurate, or to find out whether there are any righteous men there?) but far more important, it doesn’t match the real world, at least not in the matter of Creation.
ASALTYDOG: That’s no internal inconsistency. On the contrary, the Bible consistently portrays God as an omniscient person who likes to play dumb, like all fathers do with their children. “Cain, where’s your brother?” “How should I know?” “What have you done? Your brother’s blood cries to me from the ground.”
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STEVEG: Contrary to your repeated assertions, the physical evidence does not support Biblical creation equally well as it does evolution. You are either woefully misinformed or in willful denial to continue to insist that it does.
ASALTYDOG: You won’t find “repeated assertions” written by me that the physical evidence supports Biblical creation “equally well as it does evolution”. Correctly interpreted, all physical evidence supports biblical creationism alone, period. That’s my position. There are no brute facts. All facts are being interpreted through a worldview. There’s no neutrality.
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ASALTYDOG: Does it fail to provide the preconditions for what it claims to accomplish? Does it internally provide science, logic and ethics an epistemological justification? Is it a parasite worldview, unable to provide the tools it needs to argue its own truth? You tell me.
STEVEG: Try the same thought experiment with Tolkien’s Silmarillion. You’ll find it passes that test even better than the Bible does.
ASALTYDOG: So tell me how the Silmarillion does what I ask. And here you implicitly admit that Christianity is indeed internally consistent, which is more than you can say about your comatose worldview. By the way, all the readers of this conversations are probably wondering at this point why you don’t abandon evolutionary deism and become a silmarillian.
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STEVEG: You could construct any story you like about how the world came to be and make it as internally consistent as you want to. If is discordant with observed reality, it cannot be true.
ASALTYDOG: I did not make God up. He made me up.
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Correctly interpreted, all physical evidence supports biblical creationism alone, period.
Too bad there is no evidence for “magical creation”. Other than one book that says, “Let there be stuff”! And there was “stuff”!
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ASALTYDOG: I did not make God up. He made me up.
Actually, primitive people made up all Gods from thousands of years ago. Even the Mormons borrowed the Gods of others rather than making new ones..
New ones haven’t been created for quite a while. While people seem willing to believe in the supernatural beings of primitive people, they seem to draw the line at just making up more brand new ones. Odd, that.
Chritians codified their religion because it was beginning to splinter due to devoloping different methods of worshiping the occult made worse by the great distances between chapters or covens or whatever they called them.
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ASALTYDOG: I insist on this because you consistently keep on evading my point. You do that here as well. You run toward the forest, but I am running after you with my dogs. “Nobody ever said homologies are always caused by common descent”, eh? “Common descent is one way in which homologies occur, but not the only one”, eh? Exactly! So why use them to show evidence of common descent to creationists?
You do have a good point here. Trying to show any evidence to a Creationist is a futile endeavor.
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STEVEG: Try the same thought experiment with Tolkien’s Silmarillion. You’ll find it passes that test even better than the Bible does.
ASALTYDOG: So tell me how the Silmarillion does what I ask. And here you implicitly admit that Christianity is indeed internally consistent, which is more than you can say about your comatose worldview. By the way, all the readers of this conversations are probably wondering at this point why you don’t abandon evolutionary deism and become a silmarillian.
Because the point I’m making is that mere internal consistency (and I must emphasize that I am NOT saying yours is — I must emphasize that because otherwise you’ll begin proclaiming that I “admitted” it is) does not show truth.
Fictions, if written by a careful author, are internally consistent. Myths can be internally consistent. When they do not match data from outside, however, they are most likely not true.
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STEVEG: It does have internal inconsistencies (why does an omniscient God need to send emissaries to see if what He’s heard about Sodom is accurate, or to find out whether there are any righteous men there?) but far more important, it doesn’t match the real world, at least not in the matter of Creation.
ASALTYDOG: That’s no internal inconsistency. On the contrary, the Bible consistently portrays God as an omniscient person who likes to play dumb, like all fathers do with their children. “Cain, where’s your brother?” “How should I know?” “What have you done? Your brother’s blood cries to me from the ground.”
Asking a person a question because you want to force them to admit something even when you already know it is a different thing than having to go to look see if something you heard about is true.
In the first case, you’re giving the person the opportunity to own up to something. In the second case, you just don’t know and need to check it out.
By the way, the lone righteous man in Sodom offered his virgin daughters to the mob to have their way with, if they would not harm the visiting men. Do you think that is a righteous thing to do?
STEVEG: Where did Cain’s wife come from, when Adam, Eve and the late Abel were the only people on Earth at the time?
ASALTYDOG: The Bible does not say that “Adam, Eve and the late Abel were the only people on Earth at the time”. On the contrary, it says that there was also, at least, Cain’s wife.
Oh sorry, I must have missed the verse where it says Adam and Eve had other children after Cain and Abel and before Seth …
If they had a daughter, then Cain was marrying his sister, no? And since this was post-Fall, humans were already corrupted. So how does that work?
ASALTYDOG: How so? Do you know exactly what sort of scattering the panic of the Great Flood would have caused? And I am not making any claims about that.
You must have a short memory. Just up in #248 you said:
Now in order for your argument to work against creationism you need to make several crucial, unprovable assumptions. One of these assumptions is that I or the Bible should make the claim that, on the night God unleashed the Flood, dinosaurs and dogs, or mammoths and ostriches, or primates and trilobites, or T-Rexes and terriers, shared the same habitat and used to hang around at the same bar after work. And that when the Flood waters started to rise and hit, these unlikely couples didn’t part company in panic and due to different anatomies, in order to reach high ground, but stayed faithfully close to each other, probably holding hands and hugging each other, until the bitter end, and tragically drowned together like in some old-fashioned Hollywood movie.
Perhaps you are not making the claim. Perhaps you are saying I am assuming it did not happen that way. Of course, the fossil record shows it did not happen that way, but the problem you have is that either you are claiming it did, or you are left with no explanation for how the Flood could leave the fossils distributed as they are.
You can say “the evidence supports Biblical Creationism, period,” until your dying day, but it will not change the fact that the evidence does not support Biblical Creationism at all. The fossils in the Earth do not appear in a way that supports either a claim of sudden appearance fully formed or sudden death due to catastrophe.
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STEVEG at #328:
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STEVEG: No, you made the even greater mistake of suggesting the existence of God is “the alternative” to evolution, as if both can’t be true.
ASALTYDOG: No mistake at all. When I say “God”, I usually mean the God of the Bible. He and evolution cannot both be true.
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STEVEG: I then redirected the conversation to the narrow point under discussion, evolution or Creationism. The existence or non-existence of God is not inherent to one of those and the antithesis of the other. God’s existence permits either of those.
ASALTYDOG: Explain how the God of the Bible “permits” evolution. That is something I deny.
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STEVEG: God’s non-existence would eliminate sudden Creation, you’re right about that, but God’s existence does not eliminate evolution.
ASALTYDOG: It does.
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ASALTYDOG: Now if we go back to my original post #265, where this particular exchange was given more context than you provide here, we see that your present subtle change was not accidental nor innocent.
STEVEG: No, it was an effort to keep you from roaming all over the map.
ASALTYDOG: “No, it was an effort to keep you from roaming all over the map”, said SteveG as he huffed and puffed in the forest followed by ASaltyDog with his dogs.
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STEVEG: My complaint — try to follow this — back in #265 was, and remains, that your whole argument against the science of evolution is that you believe in “a God you can’t prove.”
ASALTYDOG: It does not matter what you were arguing in #265. You denied my accusation that you were begging the question in the paragraph I was examining. But you did beg the question, and cutting the original exchanges like you did plus changing one word would give the impression I was wrong to someone who doesn’t double check the original exchange. Whether this was intentional or unintentional from you, that was something I couldn’t let pass, and I still stand with what I have written.
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STEVEG: That is, you assert the existence of God, and more precisely, your particular idea of God, as proof that Genesis 1 happened just as the Bible says. So I did NOT say that “evolution must be true [or even probable], because the alternative, that there is a God, is not proved.” You have completely misunderstood the argument or, if you have understood it, are misrepresenting it here. As I said in the quoted matter above, I believe evolutionary theory is the most probable explanation because all of the physical evidence supports it, and does not support the Bible story (even if seen through the filter of a believer.)
ASALTYDOG: Oops. Sorry, wrong reference. When in #326 I wrote “Now if we go back to my original post #265, where this particular exchange was given more context than you provide here” I actually meant “my original post #302.” It is in that post that I originally accuse you of begging the question. You do complain that after you bring evidence for evolution, I dismiss it by an appeal to “a God you can’t prove”. Implicit in your complaint is the argument that due to the unprovability of God’s existence, your evidence for evolution is compelling. The way I originally stated this question-begging of yours was this: “You are saying that evolution must be true, because the alternative, that there is a God, is not proved.” This may not be the best way to put it, but my point was correct that you begged the question.
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ASALTYDOG: Now watch carefully how you forgot which way the river is flowing downstream. It was you who first brought homologies to us as evidence for evolution. I showed how it was a flawed argument. That was all I wanted to say about homologies. You agreed.
STEVEG: Why do you persist in misrepresenting this. I NEVER said homologies are “a flawed argument.” Your original question about homologies, back in #86, was: “And as an evolutionist, why do you deduce common descent from the homologies you have shown us? Why can’t those homologies be evidence of convergent evolution? Just curious.” And I agreed they can be. What I didn’t realize at the time was that you apparently have the misconception that convergent evolution is somehow a rival or a challenge to common descent. It is not. Now that this has been explained to you several times, please stop misunderstanding it.
ASALTYDOG: Listen, you have granted several times that homologies are a flawed argument. Every time you did that, I have pointed it out and emphasized it, sometimes in capital letters. You have never complained or told me I was wrong. Now suddenly you raise your voice and claim you have never SAID homologies are a flawed argument. Maybe you never SAID it, but you have clearly conceded the point. You first conceded that point in reply to my first post: “Of course. I have to concede that point. Once you start bringing a God who can and does disrupt the natural laws at his whim, you can claim anything.” (#91)
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STEVEG: If we’re both wrong and there isn’t a God, then it just is like that. Either way, it is. On what grounds do you insist that God has to take proactive action for the planet to keep rotating? Don’t say, as you did last time I asked, “because I’m a Christian.” What is it about being a Chrisian that requires your denial of an orderly universe?
ASALTYDOG: I already told you. I am a Christian, I believe in God and I believe His Word. I believe that God has to take proactive action for the planet to keep rotating because that’s what He says He does. I do believe the universe is orderly. I don’t believe the universe can be orderly apart from God’s proactive action.
STEVEG: Yeah yeah. You BELIEVE this and you BELIEVE that and you can’t show objective evidence for any of it and therefore you win the debate? Have you ever seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail? Was the Black Knight your hero?
ASALTYDOG: You ask a question, I tell you no lies. Pay attention while I talk, instead of watching movies.
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Holy Moses!
This definitely isn’ a thread for ADD-ish people.
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STEVEG at #333:
STEVEG: Try the same thought experiment with Tolkien’s Silmarillion. You’ll find it passes that test even better than the Bible does.
ASALTYDOG: So tell me how the Silmarillion does what I ask. And here you implicitly admit that Christianity is indeed internally consistent, which is more than you can say about your comatose worldview. By the way, all the readers of this conversations are probably wondering at this point why you don’t abandon evolutionary deism and become a silmarillian.
STEVEG: Because the point I’m making is that mere internal consistency (and I must emphasize that I am NOT saying yours is — I must emphasize that because otherwise you’ll begin proclaiming that I “admitted” it is) does not show truth. Fictions, if written by a careful author, are internally consistent. Myths can be internally consistent. When they do not match data from outside, however, they are most likely not true.
ASALTYDOG: You miss the point. The kind of internal consistency I mean, if you read my post carefully, includes the justification for science, logic and ethics. The Silmarillion is probably internally consistent on a literary level, but it does not independently provide an epistemological warrant for science, logic and ethics. So it wouldn’t pass the test even if Tolkien meant it as a serious non-fiction competitor against Christianity. The fact that you said that the Silmarillion “passes that test even better than the Bible does” shows that you do not understand what I am talking about.
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Steve you have a fetish for attempting to deal with arguments from consequences. Saul T has offered nothing so far except QED QED QED QED. Presuppositionalists that have nothing else to offer are boring and the debate is rather stupid when there are no common terms. Shorter Saul: Bibble Says It So It Must Be True: Bibble Don’t Say It CAnt Be True. As far as I can see, there is nothing to see here save a pathos that offers Genesis 1 as evidence for creationism. in other words, Saul claims an ontological priority that he has no epistemic right to, and expects that he will not be called on it. It’s false. It’s also not worth a million words. As some one once said, Lord help me to suffer this fool gladly.
SBG, you may have caught me. Not sure. Can’t be bothered to scroll upstream past the putrid decaying corpse of logic that ASTD has vomited upon the thread. At any rate…
My point was that the bible, any english bible, that I have found, contains this error we speak of, as well as many many others (eg the number of chariotmen in King David’s army, the problem of the fate of Judas, etc etc etc). I have understood the christianist doctrine to be that the Word is available to any that seek it. Clearly, if one seeks the word in English then they have inherited a legacy of misinterpretations and semantic errors and that any such word obtained will be summarily affected by these issues.
This is enough to prove my point. The bibble cannot be trusted as ‘word of gods’.
To rescue yours, you will attempt to argue that the [b]original[/b] text was inspired and it has since devolved via translation and the evolution of language affecting the intent and definition of words. That’s fine. But you have a significant burden of proof. I might add that this is NOT the standard inerrantist argument and is quite a shift of the goalposts. It further undermines any chance of argument from genesis in your scheme of science denial.
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Steve you have a fetish for attempting to deal with arguments from consequences. Saul T has offered nothing so far except QED QED QED QED. Presuppositionalists that have nothing else to offer are boring and the debate is rather stupid when there are no common terms. Shorter Saul: Bibble Says It So It Must Be True: Bibble Don’t Say It CAnt Be True. As far as I can see, there is nothing to see here save a pathos that offers Genesis 1 as evidence for creationism. in other words, Saul claims an ontological priority that he has no epistemic right to, and expects that he will not be called on it. It’s false. It’s also not worth a million words. As some one once said, Lord help me to suffer this fool gladly.
You’re right of course. I have little hope that the Seasoned Canine will come around to reality. I do, however, have an interest in not letting the argument-from-just-because stand unchallenged, on the belief that there may be observers lurking who would otherwise think it was somehow impressive.
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ERASMUS,
“I might add that this is NOT the standard inerrantist argument and is quite a shift of the goalposts”
Then you haven’t been given the standard inerrantist argument. Go to Wikipedia and you will find that inerrancy is in regards to the original writing – not the translations. This is what is taught in seminaries so maybe whoever explained it to you before didn’t really understand it.
I can’t be bothered to scroll upstream either because I would rather enjoy a good novel before I go to bed.
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Go to Wikipedia and you will find that inerrancy is in regards to the original writing – not the translations. This is what is taught in seminaries so maybe whoever explained it to you before didn’t really understand it.
You’re right about that, but it does raise an interesting question. Skeptics often ask how inerrantists can be sure the documents were copied correctly as they passed down through time in the many thousands of years that passed between the time they were first written down (or developed as oral tradition) and the invention of the printing press made it possible to mass-copy rather than writing it all out by hand.
The response is often an airy assurance that “The Holy Spirit made sure of it.” OK.. but then the Holy Spirit faltered at the point where the documents were translated into English, so that what should have been “winged animals” was imprecisely translated as “birds?”
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ASALTYDOG: On the contrary, my friend, I am very happy about being held to the same standard. Because that’s the moment when I win the debate. You see, I have already told you how I do provide, from within my worldview, absolute, 100% certainty for assuming the uniformity of nature. Why, God’s Word is 100% certain. He said nature is uniform, and that is therefore absolutely certain.
And “exhaustive knowledge” is indeed needed for absolute certainty about the uniformity of nature, and that absolute certainty is needed for science. Therefore my demand is perfectly fair and reasonable. You admit that from within your worldview you cannot provide that exhaustive knowledge, and you complain that the same standard and the same demands should apply also to me. But from within my worldview I can provide that exhaustive knowledge. Why, God has that exhaustive knowledge. That is precisely why He can be trusted when He says that nature is uniform. What I demand from you, is what you, from within your worldview, cannot provide, and what I, from within my worldview, can. The very same standard applies to both. Your worldview sucks. My worldview makes science possible. You lose. I win.
Do you know the difference between a fact and presupposition? Because you should no sign of understanding it.
You start with the presupposition that the Bible is the true and accurate Word of God, and build your entire argument upon that. You have not so far offered one thing to suggest that presupposition is in any way justified by external evidence.
A worldview that depends on considering only the information that comes from within a closed system is inherently and inescapably circular. It is self-contained, which gives it both the advantage of being impossible to deconstruct but also the disadvantage — a fatal one, really — of having no relevance outside of the bubble.
I come along and say, how do you KNOW the Bible is right?
– Well, it’s internally consistent.
It’s not, really, it’s riddled with internal contradictions (In Genesis 1, God makes plants on day 3 and man on day 6; in Genesis 2, the text says no plants had come up from the ground at the time God made man) and inexplicable holes in the narrative (such as how it came to be that there were cities full of other people around in the time of Cain when last we heard Adam and Eve were the only other people around).
But even at that, internal consistency is only evidence that the writer took pains to make it so. It doesn’t make it true.
– That’s not the kind of consistency I mean. I mean it provides a basis for science, logic and ethics.
Oh, so you don’t mean it’s literally true then?
– Yes I do.
For the sake of argument, say it does provide a basis for science, logic and ethics. If it reports fact claims that are at odds with what we observe on our own, can it be true? The basis could look good from inside, but fall apart on examination from outside.
– Well, er … but it IS true.
OK, so how do you know?
– Because God says it is and God can’t lie.
How do you know God can’t lie? If God were a liar, would He admit it, or would he deny it?
– Well …
Does external evidence support the Creation account?
– Yes! It all does!
Like what?
– All of it!
OK, so what’s an example?
– Er…
I mean, the fossil record doesn’t look like life all appeared at once, or that it all died at once in a flood. It suggests a rather different picture, in fact.
– Only from inside your worldview. From mine, the evidence supports Biblical Creationism. You won’t understand that until you believe what I believe.
Not really. You can’t really make the evidence fit with your worldview. You have to pretend it is other than it is.
Besides, all worldviews look good and sensible from inside. Scientologists think the evidence supports a wild story about an alien overlord coming to Earth.
– But … but … You can’t prove evolution to a 100 percent certainty! Homologies!! I win! I win!!
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STEVEG: No, you made the even greater mistake of suggesting the existence of God is “the alternative” to evolution, as if both can’t be true.
ASALTYDOG: No mistake at all. When I say “God”, I usually mean the God of the Bible. He and evolution cannot both be true.
Possibly. Maybe not.
STEVEG: I then redirected the conversation to the narrow point under discussion, evolution or Creationism. The existence or non-existence of God is not inherent to one of those and the antithesis of the other. God’s existence permits either of those.
ASALTYDOG: Explain how the God of the Bible “permits” evolution. That is something I deny.
Many Christians are quite able to accept that evolution is true without harming their faith.
Perhaps the Genesis story was a way God chose to communicate the essential facts of the nature of God, man, the cosmos and how they all relate, without delving into complex matters of science that humanity at that time was not ready to understand.
Perhaps the Genesis story was written as a succession of “days” as a literary device but really describes a much longer period of time.
Perhaps when the Genesis story says the earth brought forth plants and animals, it means progenitors that then evolved into the plethora of species we see in the past and present.
And there are other rationales too. You might read books by John Polkinghorne, Francis Collins and other practicing Christians — or Gerald Schroeder, a devout Jew — for more on how these things can be reconciled.
I will just say that if your idea of God requires you to ignore the real world and believe ancient myth instead, you need a better God.
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Boring question of the day for Erasmus at #338:
“in other words, Saul [ASaltyDog] claims an ontological priority that he has no epistemic right to, and expects that he will not be called on it. It’s false.”
Tell me Erasmus, why is it wrong to claim an ontological priority that one has no epistemic right to?
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STEVEG at #309:
This is the third part of my reply to your #309. The first and second parts can be found at #317 and #326.
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STEVEG: But [the problem of induction is] also largely immaterial to this discussion. I don’t argue that anything about the future is 100 percent certain. 99.multiple nines certain in some cases, but never 100 percent. We can never be fully sure what will happen next until it happens and then it’s past.
ASALTYDOG: You are making a fool of yourself. This comment shows that you do not understand the problem of induction. It is not a matter of how much percentage of certainty you stick to your predictions. It is a matter of you making a prediction at all.
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STEVEG: Still, it’s an argument of philosophical theory, not practical reality. It’s not just science that depends on the universe being predictable, it’s everyday life.
ASALTYDOG: This is a convenient but goofy turnaround from what you wrote before: “It is the fact that nature operates in observable and predictable ways that makes science possible.” (#265) You are making up your position as you go along.
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ASALTYDOG: And then it hits you. If the God of the Bible does not exist, we can’t afford making any of those assumptions about science, logic and ethics which you now see us naively making on the videotape as we get ready for the debate, headed toward your victory. All those assumptions make sense only in a universe where the God of the Bible exists. Can’t be true. Can’t be true. Can’t be true. But of course it is.
STEVEG: Those assumptions all make sense in a universe where observation shows them to be reasonable, whatever the underlying cause may be.
ASALTYDOG: Once again: not cause, Steve: Warrant. Repeat after me: Warrant. Justification. If there is no justification for them, ethics, science and logic are gone. You admitted as much about science, in a season when you didn’t yet foresee brusque changes of weather. If there is no warrant, there is no obligation to proceed to the left rather than to the right. “Abortion must be legal!” “Why?” “Because it’s reasonable!” “Says who? And why should I be ‘reasonable’?” “If a then b; a, therefore b.” “Why?” “Because it’s reasonable!” “Says who? And why should I be ‘reasonable’? I believe in iZEN oblique reasoning.” “No, you are dishonest if you don’t accept the conclusion of a sillogism.” “Why be honest?” “Fossils are evidence of evolution!” “Why?” “Because of the laws of nature!” “And why should I care about your laws of nature?” “But the uniformity of nature! The consistent results so far! The predictions! The probability! The likelihood! The rationality!” “Why does all that put an obligation on me to believe you in this particular case?” “Because it’s self-evident! Because otherwise you are simply being dishonest!” “Says who? The fact that it’s self-evident to you doesn’t mean it must be self-evident for me. And what obligation do I have to be honest?” And before you say I am advocating irrationality, crime, and black magic, as you foolishly but surely will, let me say I am not. I am asking on what grounds, given a worldview like yours which can’t provide the warrant for logic, ethics and science, why there is an obligation to be scientific, logical, and honest. But we already know the answer and the pattern, don’t we? No reply. Laughs. Scorn. Evasion. Equivocation. Misrepresentation. Falsehood. Bluffing. There must be a law of nature operating here.
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STEVEG: And “the God of the Bible” is not the only contender for the job even if were to agree that a God of some sort is necessary. The God who creates it all to work in a certain way and then lets it run according to those rules will serve perfectly well. So will the God of the Koran. So will the God of the Jews,who is the God of part of the Bible but not all of it.
ASALTYDOG: Mere assertions. You have to prove these things. Pathetic bluffing. You are a theist, and yet from your dear theism you have failed to provide the preconditions for having science, logic and ethics. It’s easy!, you shout. It ain’t, you sweat.
As Gandhi told me once while we were standing in a corner in Winslow, Arizona, having a beer or two: “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.”
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Canine:
For all the words you spend arguing the consistency of your presupposition and showing me how it all fits together to form a coherent worldview, you have yet to offer any evidence from outside the bubble that it is true.
Real-world evidence, I mean, not “my book is true because it is.”
According to the warning note that appears below the comment window, comments for the post will be closed in three days, as of the time I am writing this.
Better get to work.
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The bottom line, as children become adults and see for themselves the evidence from evolution, the best and brightest will recognize it for the science that it is. Unless religion evolves and catches up, it will be resigned to the most ignorant and uneducated.
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Once again: not cause, Steve: Warrant. Repeat after me: Warrant. Justification. If there is no justification for them, ethics, science and logic are gone.
This is one of the many areas where you’re just plain wrong.
Science has operated quite comfortably for centuries with an agnostic view toward theism. Science bases itself on the assumption of uniformity of nature and confirms the validity of that assumption by its ability to provide successful results.
Science has no need to explain why nature should be uniform. That’s for the ivory-tower amateur philosophers such as you to worry about. Individual scientists may have their own opinions about why it should be so, but they don’t need to be right about why or agree on why. Their work goes ahead regardless.
You can pound your fists on the wall and insist repeatedly that it’s impossible to have science without the God of the Bible. The scientists, who have science despite your certainty, will not be bothered.
Look at their faces. Do they look bothered?
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STEVEG: Still, it’s an argument of philosophical theory, not practical reality. It’s not just science that depends on the universe being predictable, it’s everyday life.
ASALTYDOG: This is a convenient but goofy turnaround from what you wrote before: “It is the fact that nature operates in observable and predictable ways that makes science possible.” (#265) You are making up your position as you go along.
Nope. You are being deliberately obtuse and hair-splitting.
Predictability doesn’t require 100 percent philosophical certainty. It’s only you that insists it must. Most people are quite happy to know that the chances of the world continuing to work as it always has before are 99.9999999999 percent.
Your all-or-nothing demand is esoteric self-gratification. It makes for a good argument over Guinness at the pub. It has no bearing on day-to-day life.
But we already know the answer and the pattern, don’t we? No reply. Laughs. Scorn. Evasion. Equivocation. Misrepresentation. Falsehood. Bluffing.
I grow tired of your patronizing chest-thumping. Especially considering how unjustified it is.
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Saul
You don’t have any means of parsing what is true from what is not, given your a priori Omphalos view.
perhaps access is the more appropriate word than ‘right’.
it boils to this: if the world was as you claim, there would be no reason to mow your lawn (gods could shorten the grass when your back was turned), to pull your feet from a burning fire (cue shadrach meshach abednego), set the hook on a catfish when you feel a nibble, or save a drowning child.
you don’t live this way. it’s just inconsistent.
your philosophy is one conglomerated mishmash of question begging. the bibble is true because the bibble is true. and the world could not be as it is if it were not. that is rather boring. it is not important to show that it is wrong. it’s easy enough to show that it is stupid. and the fact that you wipe your hind end (pardon if i give you too much credit) is proof that you don’t live this way, as steve has already pointed out.
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As near as I can figure amid the cloud of ink, it looks like his argument that my world view doesn’t “provide a basis for” things is that I can’t quote ancient scriptures to justify it.
As you (Erasmus) and I have repeatedly tried to explain, his worldview suffers the disadvantage of being shown to be discordant to reality.
I wonder if he’ll come back to make an argument against that observation in the short time remaining before the comments close, or if he’s just trying to run out the clock.
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Steve
Who cares? There is no meat to ontological acrobatics.
Evidence matters.
His argument is a metaphysics about evidence.
As such it is particularly based on piles of dusty old scrolls, not evidence itself.
In his world, there is no difference between “a fire burned down my house” and “gods burned down my house”.
In my world, and in the rest of the reality based community, we parse such nonsense with the razor of parsimony. It may indeed be true that the most complicated reified rarefied discombobulated explanation is the truth. for this scenario we have constructed the notion of consilience in our estimation of truth. Saul’s ontology of truth fails miserably when confronted with data. His only resort is the ontological argument (don’t like Plantigna, do you, Saul?) that is nothing but a sermon to the choir.
What is most interesting is the posture taken by this guy and other science deniers (claiming that evidence does matter, and vindicates their position) after hurdling through the denialist acrobatic.
Saul, you are unhealthy, dude. Get it fixed.
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The fact that he can’t just let his argument speak for itself, but feels a need to constantly belittle his opponent and declare victory out of thin air suggests he’s really not that confident about it.
As I said in one of the earlier posts, the philosophical discussion about certainty is great fare for a pub over a beer or two. But when the beers are finished we walk out into the real world where, philosophical esoterica nonwithstanding, reality holds sway.
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well, i suppose that belittling bit is what we all enjoy about this sort of thing.
the funny thing is that he thinks he is ‘warranted’.
ontological arguments are horse farts or dreams about warm baths. as descartes showed, any number of empirically equivalent notions may be drawn from any point. an exercise in metaphysical masturbation. don’t get me wrong, it is not a pointless exercise, but those mistaking this for the act itself are reifying experience beyond any capacity for content.
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Oh yes, that’s true. I remember the first time I heard “God must exist because God is perfect, and not existing would be an imperfection.” I thought it was a joke! I had no idea people actually presented that as a serious argument.
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SteveG,
This thread looks like it’s been deep down the rabbit hole.
It has been an interesting read, although I tend to agree with Erasmus’ diagnosis of presuppositionalism in #338.
I won’t leap into the rabbit hole at this late stage, but I did find an interesting article about/against presuppositionalism here.
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Lets see if I understand this thread.
Because there are no examples of evolution found in fossil form, a hopeful monster, a thing comes into being via a whole bunch of modifications taking place at the same time in the birth of this new being.
For the Evolutionists this is a solution to the lack of fossil’s showing mutations into different beings.
For the Christian this destroys the truth of Creation and therefore the whole of the Bible.
Science pitted against Faith.
Ok convince me. What does the preponderance of evidence prove. Evolution or Creation.
I would like truth and facts not theory or feelings.
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SteveG (#349) wrote: Most people are quite happy to know that the chances of the world continuing to work as it always has before are 99.9999999999 percent.
It sure is good to have such a high predictability of things when you can’t even account for anything (for as far as the whole debate has gone on). What does then your predictability help? How predictable is your predictability, how come it is 99,999999999%? How many times in your life will you still drop your car keys? I assume only one more time.
I tell you that your predictions are acceptable on the one hand. You use the law of logics. But as ASaltyDog wrote, you are making your decisions as you go along. That reminds me of another story, as unconvincing: Still in the late 70s scientists predicted an ice age. Now with a straight face, the same people tell you global warming is happening. If science was based on predictability of your kind – let’s face it – you don’t know what happens to your car keys tomorrow. Why should I trust your statements in the whole thread?
You namely base your predictions on presuppositions – as everyone does. You ruled out that God can have it all right. So your predictability is based on that. How predictable is then your predictability that there is the God of the Bible?
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Chosen
If you are truly interested in your ‘facts’ then you will correct this mistaken claim.
“Because there are no examples of evolution found in fossil form…”
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Chosen at #357:
Lets see if I understand this thread.
Because there are no examples of evolution found in fossil form, a hopeful monster, a thing comes into being via a whole bunch of modifications taking place at the same time in the birth of this new being.
No, you don’t understand this thread.
In the first place, there are many examples of evolution found in fossil form. See post #325 in this thread, for just one example. Go here to find quite a bit more.
In the second place, the “hopeful monster” referred to in the article that Harrison linked to is really nothing like what Harrison describes. Click his link and read the article — it discusses recent research showing that changes to a single gene — one change to one gene, not many things happening at once — can result in fairly dramatic changes to the appearance and function of an organism.
For the Evolutionists this is a solution to the lack of fossil’s showing mutations into different beings.
You describe a problem that doesn’t exist. Only Creationists actually think this is true. Scientists are aware that the fossil record supports evolutionary theory strongly.
For the Christian this destroys the truth of Creation and therefore the whole of the Bible.
Only if your theology depends on reading the Bible as literal and inerrant. People who do are forced into operating under the assumption that if the Bible and reality contradict, it’s reality that is wrong.
Due to the impending closing of comments on the thread there likely won’t be a lot of time to discuss these points, but I’m sure there will be more threads on evolution to come.
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#357: Because there are no examples of evolution found in fossil form
Don’t listen to them, they have it wrong. The truth is that every single fossil ever found is an example of evolution.
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E.D. Ott (who may or may not be ASaltyDog under a different name, but who has created a nice pun with his pseudonym): I tell you that your predictions are acceptable on the one hand. You use the law of logics. But as ASaltyDog wrote, you are making your decisions as you go along. That reminds me of another story, as unconvincing: Still in the late 70s scientists predicted an ice age. Now with a straight face, the same people tell you global warming is happening. If science was based on predictability of your kind – let’s face it – you don’t know what happens to your car keys tomorrow. Why should I trust your statements in the whole thread?
Is it “the same people?” Every individual?
Actually that’s a good example of how science works. Back in the 70s, based on the data that was available at the time, the prediction of the future pointed in one direction. Today, with a great deal more data and much better computer modeling capabilities, the picture is different.
Science self-corrects. When data comes in that contradicts the accepted paradigm, science tests it, incorporates it, and if necessary, changes the paradigm.
(It is important to note that most scientists who study climate are fairly reserved in their conclusions. The general consensus is that some warming is in our future, human activities play some role in it and there will be some effects. The picture of catastrophe that human activities are the sole or primary cause of is largely driven by politicians, not scientists,)
If science was based on predictability of your kind – let’s face it – you don’t know what happens to your car keys tomorrow.
Science is based on predictability of that kind. And it has proven over centuries to be a safe bet.
You could, as the Seasoned Canine does, adopt a self-contained worldview that might possess internal consistency His does, though not to the degree that he insists. But even if the worldview is perfectly, completely internally consistent, it is meaningless unless it also matches up to the observations we can make of the real world.
If “my kind” of predictability is not sufficient for you, that’s too bad … because it’s the best we have.
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Good. You grant that science self-corrects. Fine. Thus, you may have to change your mind tomorrow as the car keys don’t fall to the ground but hover in the air. And also fine: You wouldn’t even mind to change your mind as gravity for instance might change or disappear.
But at least you do know one thing for sure: The God of the Bible doesn’t exist. You know what you know. And your knowledge changes according to the self-correction of science. What if the scientists did decide to believe in the God of the Bible tomorrow? Would you then change your presuppositions, too?
I can’t agree that a perfectly internally consistent worldview may be “meaningless”. If a worldview of darkness existed 1000 ft below the ground, perfectly consistent, as they think down there, it would have to be changed when these people down there find out there is light up here. Now either their worldview was flawed (it didn’t match the observations of the real world) or not perfectly internally consistent.
The first problem though is that any worldview comes with presuppositions, with glasses. You have made clear through which glasses you see the world. It is funny to see you use glasses which belong ultimately to Christianity. And yet you deny using ANY glasses.
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ASaltyDog … er, I mean, “E.D. Ott” … in #363 said:
But at least you do know one thing for sure: The God of the Bible doesn’t exist.
Nope. I never said I know that. I’ve said (at least to the extent that “the God of the Bible” implies a literal belief in Genesis, and not all Christians insist that it must) that there’s no external evidentiary support for those stories and a lot that contradicts them.
You know what you know. And your knowledge changes according to the self-correction of science. What if the scientists did decide to believe in the God of the Bible tomorrow? Would you then change your presuppositions, too?
If somehow all the evidence for evolution were to be overturned by future discoveries, and the new discoveries support Creation (and didn’t just controvert evolution) then certainly I’d have to reconsider.
The only presupposition I bring to the debate is that our own reason and the evidence of the physical world are reliable guides to discovering truth.
I can’t agree that a perfectly internally consistent worldview may be “meaningless”. If a worldview of darkness existed 1000 ft below the ground, perfectly consistent, as they think down there, it would have to be changed when these people down there find out there is light up here. Now either their worldview was flawed (it didn’t match the observations of the real world) or not perfectly internally consistent.
Sounds like you do agree. Their worldview is internally consistent as long as they stay inside of it, but it becomes untenable when additional information from outside shows it to be mistaken.
The first problem though is that any worldview comes with presuppositions, with glasses. You have made clear through which glasses you see the world. It is funny to see you use glasses which belong ultimately to Christianity. And yet you deny using ANY glasses.
The proposition that nature is uniform comes from a lot of different sources, Judeo-Christian theology being only one. The problem is that, apart from that basic principle, which Christians and non-Christians alike largely agree on, Christianity ceases to be useful as a guide to science. The specific content it offers clashes with the real world in irreconcilable ways.
Since the basic principle doesn’t depend on Christianity — although Christianity can be a source of it — and the rest of the Bible’s “science” is mistaken, there’s no warrant for Christians to claim any superiority in understanding creation.
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E.D. Ott at #358: You namely base your predictions on presuppositions – as everyone does. You ruled out that God can have it all right. So your predictability is based on that. How predictable is then your predictability that there is the God of the Bible?
My belief that the Genesis Creation story is not literal truth is based only on the fact–fact–that the physical evidence shows it to be not true. The only presupposition involved in that is that physical evidence means something.
It is a much more reliable view than insisting that the Book must be true no matter how untrue the evidence makes it seem.
This actually does not mean that “the God of the Bible” doesn’t exist. As I said earlier, many believers are quite content to take Genesis as a metaphorical story intended to impart Spiritual, but not physical, truth. It is only those who are unable to understand anything beyond crude literalism who insist the two must be mutually exclusive.
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STEVEG:
I am not E.D.Ott.
Some older stuff:
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STEVEG: Where did Cain’s wife come from, when Adam, Eve and the late Abel were the only people on Earth at the time?
ASALTYDOG: The Bible does not say that “Adam, Eve and the late Abel were the only people on Earth at the time”. On the contrary, it says that there was also, at least, Cain’s wife.
STEVEG: Oh sorry, I must have missed the verse where it says Adam and Eve had other children after Cain and Abel and before Seth …
ASALTYDOG: Yeah, and notice very carefully that Genesis doesn’t say you are a idiot, either. I never realized before there are so many things that are true and that Genesis doesn’t say.
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STEVEG: If they had a daughter, then Cain was marrying his sister, no? And since this was post-Fall, humans were already corrupted. So how does that work?
ASALTYDOG: They probably played Mendelssohn’s Wedding March, and she was definitely wearing white. Not sure about the pastor, but for all we know he may have been from El Paso, or even from as far West as New Mexico.
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ASALTYDOG: Do you know exactly what sort of scattering the panic of the Great Flood would have caused? And I am not making any claims about that.
STEVEG: You must have a short memory. Just up in #248 you said: … [quotes about 63 pages] … Perhaps you are not making the claim. Perhaps you are saying I am assuming it did not happen that way. Of course, the fossil record shows it did not happen that way, but the problem you have is that either you are claiming it did, or you are left with no explanation for how the Flood could leave the fossils distributed as they are.
ASALTYDOG: Steve, put down that megaphone, and back away slowly.
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STEVEG #348: Science has no need to explain why nature should be uniform. That’s for the ivory-tower amateur philosophers such as you to worry about. Individual scientists may have their own opinions about why it should be so, but they don’t need to be right about why or agree on why. Their work goes ahead regardless.
ASALTYDOG: You are the same guy who wrote: “Once you start invoking God, there’s really no place for science. Science operates on the assumption that there are natural laws that operate consistently” (#80). Now let me get this straight. If I put these two concepts together I get the SteveG Manifesto: “You cannot invoke God when you do science, otherwise science is dead. This is because science presupposes the uniformity of nature. And no, science has no need to provide a warrant for that uniformity. Science has no need to explain why nature should be uniform. That’s for the ivory-tower amateur philosophers such as you to worry about.”
In this way you have effectively locked a totally unwarranted concept of science into a secure position, impervious to challenge. It’s like you have irrevocably guaranteed a secure job to an incompetent idiot.
You also wrote at #342: “A worldview that depends on considering only the information that comes from within a closed system is inherently and inescapably circular. It is self-contained, which gives it both the advantage of being impossible to deconstruct but also the disadvantage — a fatal one, really — of having no relevance outside of the bubble.” Excellent description of the secular scientific establishment, Steve.
Also this at #309 is good in this respect: “I define scientific the same way that scientists do.”
And this: “The uniformity of nature is not something to be proved, it’s the underlying assumption that makes science possible.”
From all this, Steve, it’s clear why I was so annoying when I joined the discussion claiming that God gives rain, that there are no natural laws, and asking you to prove their existence. That kind of challenge cuts through your neck. It removes the heart from the chest of your Position. And deservedly so.
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STEVEG #348: You can pound your fists on the wall and insist repeatedly that it’s impossible to have science without the God of the Bible. The scientists, who have science despite your certainty, will not be bothered. Look at their faces. Do they look bothered?
ASALTYDOG: Mostly, they look completely clueless. Some look shrewd. They don’t look bothered because you have locked the definition of science for them. According to the SteveG Manifesto above, only those who swear to never allow God in their equations get inside. Outsiders are by definition not scientists. Transgressors will be excommunicated from the sect. Heresy won’t be tolerated. Dogmas will be shoved down their throats. Mantras will be learned. Big Names will be worshiped. Scientists can concentrate on their actual work without wondering too much about whether science has been hijacked. They take for granted the manna they eat. It is in their interest not to rock the boat.
And likewise logicians and ethicists can continue doing whatever work logicians and ethicists do to earn their living, naively fooling themselves into thinking they don’t need any stinking epistemological foundation for what they are doing. But they’re wrong. When the nazi criminal gets caught, and he refuses to admit that his accusers have the authority to dictate what is ethical, it doesn’t matter how many years the professional ethicist hired to assess the crime has honorably worked without ever suspecting he needs a warrant for the ethics he now has to enforce. His verdict will be “guilty” and his warrant will be a laughable “because I say so, and I am in charge here.” What’s ethical, rational, scientific and logical is defined by those who are in power. If those in power are your friends, you will appeal to the authority of the elite. If they are not, you will complain that we should free ourselves from its bondage.
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ASALTYDOG: But we already know the answer and the pattern, don’t we? No reply. Laughs. Scorn. Evasion. Equivocation. Misrepresentation. Falsehood. Bluffing.
STEVEG #349: I grow tired of your patronizing chest-thumping. Especially considering how unjustified it is.
ASALTYDOG: Even if mine was unjustified, what’s wrong with making unjustified patronizing chest-thumpings? You do unjustified-everything!
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STEVEG #342: A worldview that depends on considering only the information that comes from within a closed system is inherently and inescapably circular. It is self-contained, which gives it both the advantage of being impossible to deconstruct but also the disadvantage — a fatal one, really — of having no relevance outside of the bubble.
ASALTYDOG: You mean, like the modern secular scientific establishment?
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STEVEG: If you were having this debate with someone who reveres a different holy book, they would give you that as the equivalent of the Bible. Would you consider that evidence for their position?
ASALTYDOG: You are that someone. Anyway all evidence should be scrutinized to see if a position which challenges Christianity is internally consistent, and provides the prerequisites for the intelligibility of human experience, regardless if there is a holy book involved.
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STEVEG: Contrary to what many Creationists think, scientists don’t just look for ways to shoehorn everything into the evolutionary framework.
ASALTYDOG: Thanks for reassuring me, for a minute there I was worried.
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ASALTYDOG: What you really mean is [you demand] evidence you will find satisfactory.
STEVEG: Well duh. If it’s not persuasive to me, it’s not going to persuade me. Self-evidently true.
ASALTYDOG: But then stop saying creationists are not providing any evidence, period, as if evidence had an objective status. Your admission here is not trivial at all. Since you talk of evidence whose degree of cogency will be subjectively assessed in different ways by different people, due to their background, worldview, down to their most basic presuppositions about reality, it is obvious that as those basic presuppositions diverge widely between two persons, so will the degree of cogency each person will attribute to the piece of evidence under examination. You have felt the sting of this whip whenever a creationist has dismissed as flimsy, to your dismay, a piece of evidence you didn’t consider flimsy at all. So it’s not like Christians haven’t provided “a shred of evidence for creationism, not even one.” That’s just propaganda rhetoric. The truth is that they have provided plenty, as they indeed keep on claiming, and as any reader can check from this forum, but the gap between their and your most ultimate presuppositions is so wide that you don’t find that evidence satisfactory. Same thing with your evidence and their disbelief. So how do we determine who’s right? By scrutinizing the two sets of basic presuppositions about reality. If either of the two sets fails to provide the prerequisites for making rational, logical sense of the evidence, then the person holding to those presuppositions is most likely confused about the most basic aspects of reality, no matter where he received his PhD, and he is most likely the one who is misinterpreting his own evidence and wrong about dismissing the other person’s evidence. Don’t think this can’t happen to you. Since you can’t provide those prerequisites, you should feel uncomfortable and cough twice right now
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ASALTYDOG: That is so naive, Steve. There are no brute facts, only interpreted facts.
STEVEG: So you’re a post-modernist Christian? Interesting.
ASALTYDOG: Steve, not even close. Vintage Reformed theology.
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ASALTYDOG: Things that are persuasive when seen through a set of presuppositional glasses will lose their cogency when seen through other glasses, and vice versa. It’s not like if you could only understand, then you would believe. It’s the other way around. If you don’t believe, you will not understand. Believe, and you will understand. And look, this is not a peculiarity of my position. Not at all. Your frustration about my unwillingness to consider the feasibility of your view is this same thing, only seen from your perspective. If I became an evolutionist, I would find your evidence persuasive, wouldn’t I? And I would dismiss creationism as wishful thinking and fairy tales, wouldn’t I? But I believe in God: I find the evidence for creationism overwhelming, while the evidence for evolutionism sounds to me so desperately flimsy and unconvincing as to defy belief.
STEVEG: You may have a point here, to an extent. However, there IS a truth underlying it all. Either life evolved over eons of time, or appeared suddenly (or some yet undiscovered third option.) They can’t both be correct answers. The evidence, viewed objectively, will support one view or the other.
ASALTYDOG: Of course I have a point. Print this discussion, go home and think about it. As for your impression that there must be a resolution one way or the other, you are perfectly right. See my reply above, the one about “satisfactory evidence”.
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STEVEG: Actually, though, you do raise a point that deserves further attention. “Believe and you will understand.” You may not know this, it’s not come up directly in this conversation although I have mentioned it in other threads, but I used to be a Christian. I DID believe. And one of the reasons I eventually moved out of it (though not the only one) is that trying to believe Genesis when I already knew enough to know it wasn’t possible broke my brain. But for a few years, I read a lot about intelligent design and Creationism and their arguments against evolution and, really, they just don’t hold water. They are largely based on incorrect information, specious logic and, occasionally, warnings that if you let yourself understand too much about science you’ll end up in hell. I finally concluded that no true God would require people to believe falsehoods, and so any religion that required a literal reading of Genesis 1-3 must not be of God.
ASALTYDOG: Thanks for sharing this. I can only say I also deplore incorrect information, specious logic and such warnings. Not all creationist literature is necessarily good and right. I have encountered some of that myself, and I have recoiled at some stuff I read. Same thing about Christian literature in general. Most of it nowadays I find it to be garbage, but I know also where to find gold. However I submit that your conclusion here was way too hasty and sloppy. You could just as well conclude that since an evolutionist stole your wallet, all evolutionists are thieves. That does not sound at all like the SteveG I have learned to know. Do yourself a favor and reconsider that. And you say this was not the only reason. Not knowing what else was involved of course I can’t write a treatise about that, but if the reason you so mention is any indication of the kind of criteria and syllogisms that were floating in your mind when you judged Christianity to be false, I would invite you to give a serious thought to the possibility that you made a very, very, very serious mistake. Steve, it’s your life, but don’t lose it for a lousy syllogism.
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STEVEG: (As a Deist, I should note, I don’t reject the idea of intelligent design entirely. But if there is anything to it, it is as an adjunct to evolution, not a substitution for it.)
ASALTYDOG: But Steve, as a Deist how do you know God is the Creator rather than just part of the universe? Don’t just assume that God equals Creator. Thanks to special revelation I know for sure that God is the Creator. So I have a basis for talking and thinking even in terms of intelligent design if I want to. (Incidentally, although I like some of the work these guys are doing, I dislike their overall strategy and rhetoric.) You can logically proceed from intelligent design to deism, if you want, so that intelligent design has to persuade you first, but I am afraid going in the opposite direction, from deism to intelligent design, as you seem to be doing here, is more of a rough road. But perhaps I misunderstand.
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ASALTYDOG: …nothing is more amusing here than your bafflement as to why I reject a position that was dismissed by the Church as a damnable heresy centuries ago.
STEVEG: The idea that the universe is orderly is a heresy? I had no idea. And honestly, I kinda doubt that’s so.
ASALTYDOG: Affirming the idea that the universe is orderly is not equivalent to affirming Deism. Christianity has always affirmed that the universe is orderly. That doesn’t make Christianity and Deism synonyms. Deism is certainly a very bad Christian heresy. For being a Deist, I have to say you sound pretty shaky on what your religion actually amounts to.
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STEVEG: Have you seen God reaching out to grab your keys? How do you know that’s what happens? Or I should say, without resorting to restating your unprovable theological belief, what *physical* evidence do you have?
ASALTYDOG: I know that’s what happens because I believe what He says about Himself and about his dealings with the world. I have not seen the risen, physical Jesus either. Believing the Word of God is the way I know these things. And when I believe Him, I understand the world.
STEVEG: Then you don’t KNOW. You believe. Which are different things.
ASALTYDOG: Yes, of course they are different things. But I do know. First, I believe. And because I have believed, now I know. I check the Atlas to see what is the capital of Rwanda (in case I need to go there, you know…). I trust and believe the Atlas. Now I know. If you now ask me whether I know the capital of Rwanda, I can confidently say that I do.
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STEVEG: Either God always makes keys fall when they’re dropped, or there is a principle of physics involved that causes it to happen. Either way, it always happens the same way.
ASALTYDOG: The right answer is that God clearly has the habit of making them fall. If you reject the sovereignty of God over nature, and you want to proceed without the warrant for assuming the uniformity of nature, then you are a fool, and you have no epistemological basis for saying that it always happens the same way. No use complaining: it’s your fault. Throwing in the word “physics” or “law of nature” does nothing to solve the problem.
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STEVEG: By the way, if you wear a seatbelt when you drive, cook your food expecting to be able to eat it hot, or look for your keys on the ground when you drop them, you believe in the laws of nature, whether you admit it or not.
ASALTYDOG: If I do, I am an ungrateful idiot. A Christian may certainly do that. That does not make it the Christian position. A Christian might envy his neighbor’s property. That doesn’t mean envy is not a sin.
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STEVEG: You drop your keys, they fall. I say, gravity. You say, God. How do you know you’re right?
ASALTYDOG: Because God can’t lie.
STEVEG: Really? Who told you that? How do you know it was the truth?
ASALTYDOG: God told me that in His Word. I know it was the truth because I believe what God says in His Word.
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ASALTYDOG: It’s your mystical talk about strange, occult natural laws and odd, inexplicable predictions about trees and rocks and keys that worries me. It all makes your world view sound more and more like something that might originate from the mind of a drunken shaman, or a seedy fortune teller.
STEVEG: And this is babble. My view is the same as that of every rational person.
ASALTYDOG: Every drunken shaman thinks he is just another normal drunken shaman.
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ASALTYDOG: And by the way God is there making it happen every day, not every spring. Can’t you see that trees grow every day a little bit?
STEVEG: You are begging the question … assuming the conclusion without demonstrating it. You know better than that.
ASALTYDOG: My point there is that it’s not like God goes and takes care of a tree every six months, with pauses in between when he goes and takes care of something else.
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ASALTYDOG: I know that Christ does these things because that’s what He says He does, and I believe Him.
STEVEG: He says this? Have you heard him? Or have you just read stories saying he said things? When did Christ speak to you?
ASALTYDOG: I don’t believe in direct revelation occurring today.
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STEVEG: I think most Christians, while believing in a God who intervenes more personally and more often than a Deist does, would not insist that only direct and proactive action of God is what makes anything happen at all.
ASALTYDOG: Here you go again, hoping I would believe something else from what I say I believe, hoping the Bible would teach something different from what it teaches, and hoping the position you are engaging was easier to engage. If there are Christians out there who bought deistic premises, too bad for them. I can only speak for myself, and hopefully, for what Christians have traditionally believed. If your argumentation is ineffective against traditional Christianity, and you freely confess you’d rather go and preach to the choir, that speaks volumes about the inner strength of your position.
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STEVEG: Where in the Bible does it say God has to directly cause everything in the universe to happen?
ASALTYDOG: Get these: http://tinyurl.com/2aokyz http://tinyurl.com/kfh47
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STEVEG: And yet, the Scripture you say you are obliged to believe in literal detail says otherwise, plain as day.
ASALTYDOG: I never said that.
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STEVEG: You keep speaking of homologies as if you think physical resemblance is the key piece of evidence evolutionists have.
ASALTYDOG: I keep speaking about homologies because you judged them to be so compelling that you came to this forum to spread the Gospel of Darwin with that piece of evidence in your right hand.
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STEVEG: Now of course, if you want to say that God created everything and designed it to look similar, there’s no scientific argument against that because you’ve left the world of science.
ASALTYDOG: How convenient. And anyway this once again shows that homologies are not compelling evidence against creationism at all.
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STEVEG: But it does raise the question of, why would a God who created everything fully formed and suddenly go to great lengths to make it look otherwise?
ASALTYDOG: I don’t understand the question.
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ASALTYDOG: Nobody here is making that claim about aliens. If someone does, I’ll go and talk to him.
STEVEG: Nobody? Ever hear of Scientology?
ASALTYDOG: I said nobody here.
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STEVEG: Scientologists believe that 75 million years ago, an alien called Xenu, who was the ruler of galactic confederacy, brought billions of people to Earth, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls now stick to the bodies of living people and become evil influences that people have to try to identify and neutralize. It sounds crazy to me, but you know what a Scientologist would tell you? If you believe it first, then it will make sense. See, every religious system, no matter how absurd, makes perfect sense to people inside it.
ASALTYDOG: Glad you understand that. But of course, like Tom Cruise, you think, “that can’t happen to me.” I told you: I want to see the internal consistency and the warrant for science, logic and ethics. Scientology does not pass the test. Neither does Darwinism. Neither does Deism.
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STEVEG: Your position is not better; you just appeal to something you consider to be an authority.
ASALTYDOG: You are completely deluded if you imagine you do not do the same. Only my authority is infallible, yours isn’t.
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STEVEG: If there’s a piece of evidence that can be seen to fit with evolution, science takes it as such without considering the possibility that God put it there (or some other alternative.) But that is possible to do today only because evolution is already a well established and accepted theory that’s been tested and strengthended for 150 years.
ASALTYDOG: Wow, Steve. And then with this piece of “evidence for evolution” in your hand you enter an online discussion and you tell all the Christians present “There! See? That’s absolutely compelling evidence for evolution! How can you be so blind?” I will print this and put it on my wall. I will write below: “By SteveG, the evolutionist who makes Scientology sound rational”.
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STEVEG and ERASMUS:
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ERASMUS: In his [SaltyDog's] world, there is no difference between “a fire burned down my house” and “gods burned down my house”.
ASALTYDOG: Wrong. It’s God, singular, and with the capital letter.
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ERASMUS: in other words, Saul [ASaltyDog] claims an ontological priority that he has no epistemic right to, and expects that he will not be called on it. It’s false. . . . [pause] . . . perhaps access is the more appropriate word than ‘right’. . .
ASALTYDOG: …thought Erasmus, when it suddenly dawned on him that his worldview doesn’t give him the warrant for talking about “rights”, whether ethical or logical or scientific.
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ERASMUS: it boils to this: if the world was as you claim, there would be no reason to mow your lawn (gods could shorten the grass when your back was turned), to pull your feet from a burning fire (cue shadrach meshach abednego), set the hook on a catfish when you feel a nibble, or save a drowning child. you don’t live this way. it’s just inconsistent. … and the fact that you wipe your hind end (pardon if i give you too much credit) is proof that you don’t live this way, as steve has already pointed out.
ASALTYDOG: True. Guilty as charged, and I even forgive you for admittedly giving me too much credit. I am a dog, not a man. My only comfort here is that you must have a bad conscience too. If the world was as you claim, given evolution, you would have the ethical obligation to feed your children to crocodiles and the logical necessity to paint yourself blue and walk around naked. Nobody would have any reason to drink beer, and simple common sense would require you to set as your highest scientific priority a low-cost, efficient way to get rid of the Hungarians. But you don’t live this way. Tsk tsk, so inconsistent. And before I forget, in case someone is still struggling in the fog, the internal consistency a worldview needs to have in order to provide the preconditions and the justification for ethics, science and logic, has nothing to do with the degree of consistency individual human beings end up displaying in regard to what their worldview implicates. And it is possible to criticize someone for being inconsistent only if one has a basis for saying that inconsistency is a bad thing.
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ERASMUS: You don’t have any means of parsing what is true from what is not, given your a priori Omphalos view. … His only resort is the ontological argument … Presuppositionalists that have nothing else to offer are boring and the debate is rather stupid when there are no common terms. … your philosophy is one conglomerated mishmash of question begging. the bibble is true because the bibble is true. and the world could not be as it is if it were not. that is rather boring. it is not important to show that it is wrong. it’s easy enough to show that it is stupid. … Who cares? There is no meat to ontological acrobatics. … ontological arguments are horse farts or dreams about warm baths. as descartes showed, any number of empirically equivalent notions may be drawn from any point. (FLASHBACK: STEVEG: …or JRR Tolkien’s fantasy universe. … perfectly internally consistent–moreso than the Bible in fact, at least in Tolkien’s case. … Try the same thought experiment with Tolkien’s Silmarillion. You’ll find it passes that test even better than the Bible does….) … reifying experience beyond any capacity for content … Evidence matters …
ASALTYDOG: Several Christians have spoken here in this forum, and I am the only one among them who is not trying to show you that the scientific evidence from the real world points to Christianity, or fails to support evolution. The reason I am saying this is not, God forbid, to single out my approach as the one deserving special credit. Nor am I unaware that for some reason or another you find their arguments unpersuasive. Rather, my purpose in drawing attention to this fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christians sees evidence for God out there, in the real world, supporting the truth of their worldview. Plus, they are convinced that your worldview fails to explain what we see in the real world. So solid is their persuasion that your refusal to concede their points often infuriates and exasperates them. Likewise you no doubt believe that they are seriously deluded, but work with me here. I am not trying to argue that we should believe every guy who sees things and hears voices either. The point I want to make is instead this. So clearly do these other Christians see the hand of the Creator in nature that when arguing with you they think of little else except the real world out there. That’s where they find the justification and the intellectual warrant for being Christians (and I can’t blame them at all). That’s also the battleground where they are prepared to challenge you. You may disagree with them until the cows come home, but this remains a fact. Now you would have half a point with me here if all Christianity did was to argue its own truth from abstractions, like you no doubt think I am doing, with no claim of any necessary corresponding evidence in the real world. But this is not what I am doing, and it is not what we did. First, I have never claimed that there is no correspondence between the transcendental proof for Christianity and the world out there. On the contrary, I insisted from the start that all creation is evidence for Christianity. And my fellow Christians here have done a wonderful job in implicitly corroborating my argument. These are my brothers and sisters. It’s not like I disagree with them over whether the structure of the eye inescapably points to God, or like they disagree with me over whether Christianity provides the preconditions for talking about things and still make sense. Rather, my argument includes their arguments. That’s how their pillows become missiles, to pick up a metaphor I have used before. You didn’t have a quarrel with me, and a separate quarrel with them. You have had one quarrel. You may foolishly delude yourselves into thinking that you have defeated them, and then in a separate battle you have defeated me. But what really happened here is that my argument shows why your objections against them are invalid, and their argument shows why your present objection against me is also invalid. So much for your shortsighted protest here. When you argue with them, you want to ignore what I told you, and when you argue with me, you want to ignore what they told you. But it is together that in this forum we have surrounded you from all sides, and we have provided the argument for Christianity that has crushed your worldview. It is a compelling argument. It is a devastating argument. You have nowhere left to hide. You are left with no excuse whatever for your culpable rejection of the true God. May God have mercy on your souls.
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STEVEG: The fact that he [ASaltyDog] can’t just let his argument speak for itself, but feels a need to constantly belittle his opponent and declare victory out of thin air suggests he’s really not that confident about it.
ASALTYDOG: Or maybe that’s evidence he knows he has won. Thanks Steve, great example of how a man’s presuppositions lead him to see what he wants to see, and to misinterpret a “brute fact”. You do the same thing with “evidence for evolution”.
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ERASMUS: In my world, and in the rest of the reality based community, we [huff and puff and do stuff].
ASALTYDOG: In your world you believe in the theory of evolution, but you have no way to account for the rationality and the logic which the theory presupposes. You do admit your worldview has limitations, but you are like a guy who sings “Half of what I say is meaningless”, and who should admit in the next verse that the other half is unintelligible. You do huff and puff, and you certainly do a lot of stuff. Given your irrational worldview, though, which lacks the foundation and warrant for the concept of rational, logical and ethical obligation, all your huffing and puffing amounts to a tale told by an idiot and believed by an even bigger idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. It is far less intelligible than “Come Together”. It’s more at the level of I Am the Walrus. Not surprisingly, rEVOLUTION #9 is even closer.
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Folks, we have seen how there are two kinds of people in the world: those who grow science, logic and ethics in their own backgarden, and those who come and steal these precious products when nobody’s looking. It’s either one or the other. There’s no neutrality. Some thieves don’t know this is what they are doing. Some do. The thieves then smuggle the products into other countries, and hope nobody asks them any boring questions when they cross the border. So now remember this. If a man comes and wants to sell you any of these products, ask him how he got them.
“Every science claims to be a series of inferences from observed facts. It is only by such inferences that you can reach your nebulae and protoplasm and dinosaurs and sub-men and cave-men at all. Unless you start by believing that reality in the remotest space and the remotest time rigidly obeys the laws of logic, you can have no ground for believing in any astronomy, any biology, any palaeontology, any archaeology. To reach the positions held by the real scientists — which are then taken over by the Myth — you must, in fact, treat reason as an absolute. But at the same time the Myth asks me to believe that reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of a mindless process at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. The content of the Myth thus knocks from under me the only ground on which I could possibly believe the Myth to be true. If my own mind is a product of the irrational — if what seem my clearest reasonings are only the way in which a creature conditioned as I am is bound to feel — how shall I trust my mind when it tells me about Evolution? They say in effect: ‘I will prove that what you call a proof is only the result of mental habits which result from heredity which results from bio-chemistry which results from physics.’ But this is the same as saying: ‘I will prove that proofs are irrational’: more succinctly, ‘I will prove that there are no proofs’.” (C.S. Lewis on the Myth of evolution)
“We believe that the sun is in the sky at midday in the summer not because we can clearly see the sun (in fact, we cannot) but because we can see everything else.” (C.S. Lewis)
“And wisdom is justified by her children”, concluded Matt. “Yes, all of them”, clarified the doctor.
Desperado,
why don’t you come to your senses?
You been out ridin’ fences
for so long now
Oh, you’re a hard one
I know that you got your reasons
These things that are pleasin’ you
Can hurt you somehow
Don’t you draw the queen of diamonds, boy
She’ll beat you if she’s able
You know the queen of hearts is always
your best bet
Now it seems to me, some fine things
Have been laid upon your table
But you only want the ones
that you can’t get
Desperado,
oh, you ain’t gettin’ no younger
Your pain and your hunger,
they’re drivin’ you home
And freedom, oh freedom
well, that’s just some people talkin’
Your prison is walking
through this world all alone
Don’t your feet get cold in the winter time?
The sky won’t snow and the sun won’t shine
It’s hard to tell the night time
from the day
You’re losin’ all your highs and lows
Ain’t it funny how the feeling goes
away?
Desperado,
why don’t you come to your senses?
Come down from your fences,
open the gate
It may be rainin’,
but there’s a rainbow above you
You better let somebody love you,
let somebody love you,
You better let somebody love you,
before it’s too
late
Steve and Erasmus, thanks and farewell. I really enjoyed this. No hard feelings. Who knows, maybe we’ll be able one day to sit down and have a beer together. But I hope to visit Rwanda first.
___
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Erasmus
- You said:
- If you are truly interested in your ‘facts’ then you will correct this mistaken claim.
- “Because there are no examples of evolution found in fossil form…”
It was not a “claim” it was my understanding of the positions being stated throughout the thread. So I can’t correct others statements as I understood them.
SteveG
360. by SteveG 02.05.08 at 8:56 am
Chosen at #357:
-Lets see if I understand this thread.
-Because there are no examples of evolution found in fossil form, a hopeful monster, a thing comes into being via a whole bunch of modifications taking place at the same time in the birth of this new being.
-No, you don’t understand this thread.
-In the first place, there are many examples of evolution found in fossil form. See post #325 in this thread, for just one example. Go here to find quite a bit more.
This post doesn’t support your statement. I believe you meant 324. It refers to a book for sale.
1. 325. by Spinoza 02.03.08 at 6:46 pm
BTW, really complete and gradual fossil sequences exist for invertebrates and micro-fossils, the staples of the oil industry. Creatures from regimes where there was continuous deposition on the sea floor for long periods of time show exactly the kind of thing creationists claim is necessary to demonstrate evolution.
And that is why they never talk about them!
-In the second place, the “hopeful monster” referred to in the article that Harrison linked to is really nothing like what Harrison describes. Click his link and read the article — it discusses recent research showing that changes to a single gene — one change to one gene, not many things happening at once — can result in fairly dramatic changes to the appearance and function of an organism.
-For the Evolutionists this is a solution to the lack of fossil’s showing mutations into different beings.
-You describe a problem that doesn’t exist. Only Creationists actually think this is true. Scientists are aware that the fossil record supports evolutionary theory strongly.
You cite a theory, remember, I’m looking for the truth
-For the Christian this destroys the truth of Creation and therefore the whole of the Bible.
-Only if your theology depends on reading the Bible as literal and inerrant. People who do are forced into operating under the assumption that if the Bible and reality contradict, it’s reality that is wrong.
It does, I do and its not.
-Due to the impending closing of comments on the thread there likely won’t be a lot of time to discuss these points, but I’m sure there will be more threads on evolution to come.
Since I’m new to the “World on the Web” I’m sure I’ll learn the “Roberts Rules of Order” for posting and clarifications.
A lively debate provokes the mind and causes one to study to understand where they really stand. As a Christian, my worldview is established, founded, centered on and authored by the God of the Bible. The result, my Faith is assured.
I still have not seen scientific proof that shows a human came from anywhere but a women’s womb. If there was a change between or a progression to another species there ought to be proof, not a theory. Not one but at least two in order for continued propagation. You would think there would be lots of them in the past, resulting in a preponderance of evidence, and possibly some in transition even now, although some of the humans walking around today……
Oh well, its late and this thread closes soon. See you around.
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Ok, down the rabbit hole…
The first problem though is that any worldview comes with presuppositions, with glasses. You have made clear through which glasses you see the world. It is funny to see you use glasses which belong ultimately to Christianity. And yet you deny using ANY glasses.
The first problem the presupper has is demanding an account for X when, evidently, X is a belief that is unique to the presupper. e.g. X = certainty of the uniformity of nature.
Rather than acknowledge that it’s their own belief that demands certainty, they transfer that demand to other worldviews. But is X even something that’s a) necessary or b) something we’re even entitled to? To suggest that we must have certainty, otherwise we’ll be, well…uncertain, is not much more than an appeal to consequences. And as SteveG has repeatedly pointed out, 100% ironclad certainty is a claim that only the presuppers believe is essential and is something that non-Christians don’t buy into. So it does little good to assert that non-Christians borrow from Christianity, when non-Christians don’t actually believe what you’re accusing them of stealing.
And if the pressupper’s circular, “internally consistent” worldview (that just invokes “God” as the answer to anything from the non-uniformity of nature to the uniformity of nature), has to jump through so many hoops (e.g. white-hole cosmology) to accord with our observations of the universe then perhaps, as Steve and Erasmus have stated, data and reality are its worst enemies.
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I still have not seen scientific proof that shows a human came from anywhere but a women’s womb. If there was a change between or a progression to another species there ought to be proof, not a theory.
Then you don’t understand the meanings of those words.
Gravity is a theory. That germs cause disease is a theory. In scientific terms, “theory” is a term of art. That is, it has a specific meaning, which is, a description of why things work as they do.
Science doesn’t prove anything to a 100 percent certainty … that was the crux of the very long postings between A Salty Dog and me, and Erasmus, earlier in the thread. Some things are proved so close to 100 percent that the difference is irrelevant — such as, when you drop your keys they fall to the ground — but the 100 percent standard is a false box that presuppositionalists such as SaltyDog and, now, you, insist on. It’s not part of science.
Theories are subject to revision and modification as further evidence comes in, and evolutionary theory has certainly evolved over the 150 years since science first began exploring it. But it has stood the test of time.
Not one but at least two in order for continued propagation. You would think there would be lots of them in the past, resulting in a preponderance of evidence, and possibly some in transition even now, although some of the humans walking around today……
And this shows you don’t understand transition. Creationists have this idea — fostered by the misinformers they get their “science” from — that a “transitional form” should be obviously half one thing and half another.
The problem is, all organisms are transitional. In fact, a fairly large number of such obvious transitional forms have been discovered, and the link I provided in #360 discusses a few of them. (only a few and only vertebrate species.)
But even organisms that seem to be whole and fully-formed are transitional because life is always changing in small ways.
A lively debate provokes the mind and causes one to study to understand where they really stand. As a Christian, my worldview is established, founded, centered on and authored by the God of the Bible. The result, my Faith is assured.
Right and here’s where we see the double standard. You demand proof of the smallest claims of science, yet you believe in the God of the Bible, just because the Bible says it. You believe the Bible is a reliable source because you believe in its God. It is just big circle, with no external evidentiary support.
So, prove it. Can you prove the existence of the God of the Bible without citing the Bible as evidence? From external evidences?
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ASALTYDOG: Based on your farewell note and the rapidly expiring time on comments for this post I assume you’re not planning to return, to this thread anyway. Nevertheless, I’ll respond to this one part of your final post.
ASALTYDOG: Several Christians have spoken here in this forum, and I am the only one among them who is not trying to show you that the scientific evidence from the real world points to Christianity, or fails to support evolution. The reason I am saying this is not, God forbid, to single out my approach as the one deserving special credit.
That’s good, because your lack of external evidence is not a plus.
Nor am I unaware that for some reason or another you find their arguments unpersuasive. Rather, my purpose in drawing attention to this fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christians sees evidence for God out there, in the real world, supporting the truth of their worldview.
To the extent that their worldview is simply Christian, I have no quarrel with that. It’s when the worldview insists that a literal reading of Genesis Creation is necessary that their worldview contradicts the actual world.
While you have not actually shown any evidence, you have argued repeatedly that the physical evidence supports Biblical Creation. But your only response to the many times you’ve been shown how the physical evidence actually contradicts literal Creation is to say “Bible says otherwise.”
If Creation were true, you’d be able to show it without an appeal to Scripture at all. You’d be able to look at the fossil record, the methods used to establish an approximate age for the Earth, and other ways to analyze and measure physical things and conclude that all life forms appeared fully formed about 6,000 years ago. But you can’t, because the evidence simply doesn’t show that.
Plus, they are convinced that your worldview fails to explain what we see in the real world. So solid is their persuasion that your refusal to concede their points often infuriates and exasperates them. Likewise you no doubt believe that they are seriously deluded, but work with me here. I am not trying to argue that we should believe every guy who sees things and hears voices either. The point I want to make is instead this. So clearly do these other Christians see the hand of the Creator in nature that when arguing with you they think of little else except the real world out there.
So do I. You do not respect my Deist view, and that is your right, but I do not deny the presence of an ultimate Creator. I just don’t think the Genesis account is a literally accurate record of how the Creator created.
That’s where they find the justification and the intellectual warrant for being Christians (and I can’t blame them at all). That’s also the battleground where they are prepared to challenge you. You may disagree with them until the cows come home, but this remains a fact. Now you would have half a point with me here if all Christianity did was to argue its own truth from abstractions, like you no doubt think I am doing, with no claim of any necessary corresponding evidence in the real world. But this is not what I am doing, and it is not what we did. First, I have never claimed that there is no correspondence between the transcendental proof for Christianity and the world out there. On the contrary, I insisted from the start that all creation is evidence for Christianity.
But you didn’t make the case. Creation is evidence for a Creator. It does not necessitate that the Creator be the Judeo/Christian God.
And my fellow Christians here have done a wonderful job in implicitly corroborating my argument. These are my brothers and sisters. It’s not like I disagree with them over whether the structure of the eye inescapably points to God, or like they disagree with me over whether Christianity provides the preconditions for talking about things and still make sense. Rather, my argument includes their arguments. That’s how their pillows become missiles, to pick up a metaphor I have used before. You didn’t have a quarrel with me, and a separate quarrel with them. You have had one quarrel. You may foolishly delude yourselves into thinking that you have defeated them, and then in a separate battle you have defeated me. But what really happened here is that my argument shows why your objections against them are invalid, and their argument shows why your present objection against me is also invalid.
Not at all. If I were arguing for atheism you’d have a point, but I’m not. I’m arguing for evolution as the physical means the Creator used to allow a wide diversity of life forms to develop.
So much for your shortsighted protest here. When you argue with them, you want to ignore what I told you, and when you argue with me, you want to ignore what they told you. But it is together that in this forum we have surrounded you from all sides, and we have provided the argument for Christianity that has crushed your worldview. It is a compelling argument.
Then why are Erasmus and I not compelled? It is a nice, neat self-contained worldview that does not accord with reality, and because it does not, is not valid.
It is a devastating argument. You have nowhere left to hide. You are left with no excuse whatever for your culpable rejection of the true God. May God have mercy on your souls.
So you’re directly responsible for my going to hell then, because if you’d never come here to make it all plain, I could have pled ignorance.
That will be on your conscience for all eternity.
Actually, I’m not bothered. My salvation doesn’t hang on what I believe about Genesis.
___
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” Thanks to special revelation I know for sure that God is the Creator”
That sort of knowledge is not knowledge at all, is it? What a load of crap.
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“I know it was the truth because I believe what God says in His Word.”
That sort of knowledge is not knowledge at all, is it? What a load of crap.
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“ASALTYDOG: I don’t believe in direct revelation occurring today.”
So your knowledge of direct revelation is not knowledge at all, is it? What a load of crap.
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” First, I believe. And because I have believed, now I know”
That sort of knowledge is not knowledge at all, is it? What a load of crap.
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STEVEG – “My salvation doesn’t hang on what I believe about Genesis.”
You’re right!
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“when it suddenly dawned on him that his worldview doesn’t give him the warrant for talking about “rights”, whether ethical or logical or scientific.”
Rights are superfluous. Access being a synonym for this usage of right, O Pedantic Not-Knower.
“I am the only one among them who is not trying to show you that the scientific evidence from the real world points to Christianity, or fails to support evolution”
But that’s not what you are doing at all, and you know it. You are playing ontological silly buggers. Fair enough, but when you diverge into foolish nonsense about dogs and painting yourself blue then it is obvious to anyone paying attention that you are caught in a lie and you must bluff. I don’t expect honesty from you Saul, for the first lie you told was that your kind of knowledge is even knowledge. It’s just an opinion based on someone else’s opinion.
“my purpose in drawing attention to this fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christians sees evidence for God out there, in the real world, supporting the truth of their worldview.”
Again, more lying. You just said that you Believe First Then You Know.
Don’t believe, me, O Deceiver? “I have insisted that all creation is evidence for Christianity. ”
See. Ontological Silly Buggers. And you know this.
“those who grow science, logic and ethics in their own backgarden, and those who come and steal these precious products when nobody’s looking.”
More lies. You don’t possess logic or science, you possess the Sorcerers Explanation. When you argue for revelation, you deny everything that is based on experience. Science. it doesn’t matter if the keys fall up tomorrow. Science can deal with that by adjusting. You can deal with that by just saying ‘It’s Allahs Will’ and going back to picking your nose and demanding that the hair in your boogers is evidence for creation.
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“If Creation were true, you’d be able to show it without an appeal to Scripture at all. You’d be able to look at the fossil record, the methods used to establish an approximate age for the Earth, and other ways to analyze and measure physical things and conclude that all life forms appeared fully formed about 6,000 years ago. But you can’t, because the evidence simply doesn’t show that.”
Steve, this is exactly right.
This is also why Saul has to play ontological silly buggers with the definitions of knowledge, science, logic and existence itself.
The presuppositionalist argument is highly highly advanced stupidity.
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370. by SteveG 02.06.08 at 9:47 am
–A lively debate provokes the mind and causes one to study to understand where they really stand. As a Christian, my worldview is established, founded, centered on and authored by the God of the Bible. The result, my Faith is assured.
-Right and here’s where we see the double standard. You demand proof of the smallest claims of science, yet you believe in the God of the Bible, just because the Bible says it. You believe the Bible is a reliable source because you believe in its God. It is just big circle, with no external evidentiary support.
-So, prove it. Can you prove the existence of the God of the Bible without citing the Bible as evidence? From external evidences?
Hmmmm, you want to take away my reference book, the truth, and substitute it with external evidentiary support. Ok, I’ll bite. Look out your window. Everything you see starts out in order and goes towards disorder as it dies / wears out. Because there is a defect in it. I submit nothing starts in disorder and works towards order.
Your turn, show me the opposite.
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Hi Chosen
Go look at the distribution of particles in a stream bed. You will find what you seek.
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STEVEG at #371:
First, your post shows you are unable to sit down and listen to what I am saying. You keep on interrupting the flow of my argument with totally irrelevant comments like an angry boy who needs to talk back to his dad at every turn without paying any attention whatever to what he says. Alternatively, you sound like you have an urge to go the bathroom and since you have no time to consider my point and only then talk, you just go ahead and talk over my voice. Well, I hope you made it to the bathroom in time.
Secondly, your urge to talk back to me was so strong that you didn’t even realize that I was not even talking to you. So much for all your complaints that I don’t respect your Deism. Go back and read my actual post. I was not arranging an incoherent collection of random thoughts for your personal amusement, I was answering a specific objection made by Erasmus. Thanks for granting I “have a point”, though.
So do I. You do not respect my Deist view, and that is your right, but I do not deny the presence of an ultimate Creator. I just don’t think the Genesis account is a literally accurate record of how the Creator created.
I wrote that my argument in this post is compelling. You ask why then you and Erasmus do not feel compelled. First, I can’t help observing that a precondition for feeling compelled by an argument is that you need to have actually listened to it and paid attention to it. And as I just said I have every reason to suppose you haven’t heard and understood a word of what I said, as other things were clearly keeping your mind busy. Secondly, I don’t understand how you presume to speak for Erasmus, unless your link with Erasmus is closer than I thought. But this is surely related to the fact that you haven’t got a clue of what I have written here. And thirdly, the fact that an argument is objectively and logically sound and compelling does not mean that everybody will subjectively feel its force, let alone bow down to it. My point is that everybody should. You have an obligation to bow down to a sound argument, but that doesn’t mean you will do so. Irrationality and madness are always possible alternatives, and so is continuing a futile rebellion againt God even when you are left with no excuse. But then let no one say here that Christianity is irrational. Your worldview fails to give you the warrant for such logical and rational obligations, but that doesn’t mean the obligations aren’t there. Logic does not make discounts just because you are a Deist. So for as long as my argument will go unanswered, my argument shall stand, and so will your duty to admit it and mend your ways accordingly.
Rest assured that if you go to hell it will be because of your sins, not because of me. I have no responsibility at all toward you here except that I speak the truth to you and that I be faithful to God’s Word. And there’s no pleading ignorance for one’s sins with God. I have to say it is rather ungrateful for you to resent my words when all I did was to pray for your salvation.
Finally, it is absolutely true that your salvation doesn’t hang on what you believe about Genesis — even though you as a Deist can’t possibly know it. The reason that prompted me to pray for your salvation, though, was spelled out by me in plain English, and if you actually go back and read my words there, where you are not in a hurry, you will see that it’s not your and Erasmus’ rejection of Genesis, but your and Erasmus’ rejection “of the true God.“
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Correction about my #382: the short paragraph that begins with “so do I” is a fossil from Steve’s post, and it got there by accident.
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Correction about my #382: the short paragraph that begins with “so do I” is a fossil from Steve’s post, and it got there by accident.
Impossible. God directly controls everything that happens down to the most minute detail. There are no accidents.
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Chosen at #379: Hmmmm, you want to take away my reference book, the truth, and substitute it with external evidentiary support.
If your book reports the truth about the physical creation, then the actual physical creation will lead to the same place, no?
Look out your window. Everything you see starts out in order and goes towards disorder as it dies / wears out. Because there is a defect in it. I submit nothing starts in disorder and works towards order.
This is a statement of the second law of thermodynamics, often cited by Creationists as “proof” that natural evolution can’t happen.
What the Creationists don’t understand is that the second law of thermodynamics applies only to a closed system where the amount of energy is finite. On Earth,the sun is constantly pumping new energy into the system.
Order from disorder? Snowflakes, formed from formless water vapor, become six-sided, symmetrical crystalline structures. Seeds become plants. The shapeless goop inside an egg becomes a bird. Two cells that meet in a woman’s uterus become a human being with all its complexity.
And those are just a few off the top of my head.
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Salty Dog at #381, referring to #367 and #371:
Secondly, your urge to talk back to me was so strong that you didn’t even realize that I was not even talking to you. So much for all your complaints that I don’t respect your Deism. Go back and read my actual post. I was not arranging an incoherent collection of random thoughts for your personal amusement, I was answering a specific objection made by Erasmus.
Oh, I must have been confused by the opening words then: “STEVEG and ERASMUS:”
Seeing my name in a salutation usually leads me to conclude the communication is directed to me, along with any others named.
My mistake.
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ERASMUS at #377:
_______
ASALTYDOG: “when it suddenly dawned on him that his worldview doesn’t give him the warrant for talking about “rights”, whether ethical or logical or scientific.”
ERASMUS: Rights are superfluous. Access being a synonym for this usage of right, O Pedantic Not-Knower.
ASALTYDOG: Then it boils down to this. You say that the reason why it’s “wrong” and “false” for me to “claim an ontological priority” that I have “no epistemic right to” or possibly “access to”, is that I don’t “have any means of parsing what is true from what is not.” I already shown why that is not the case. Here I want only to challenge you again to do something you still haven’t done, which is to tell me how, given your worldview, the “wrongness” and “falseness” of my position necessarily stems from those premises. Have fun.
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ERASMUS: Fair enough, but when you diverge into foolish nonsense about dogs and painting yourself blue then it is obvious to anyone paying attention that you are caught in a lie and you must bluff. I don’t expect honesty from you Saul.
ASALTYDOG: What’s bad about lying, Erasmus? Do tell. And why can you lie about what would be the case if Christianity was true, but I can’t lie about what would be the case if evolution was true? There is a kind of lying that far from being sinful exposes the real liar. These things that are pleasin’ you can hurt you somehow.
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ERASMUS: for the first lie you told was that your kind of knowledge is even knowledge. It’s just an opinion based on someone else’s opinion.
ASALTYDOG: How do you know that? How do you know my name is ASaltyDog? How do you know anything? And if that’s what you want to call it, that’s the way God saves His elect then — by having the right opinion based on the right guy’s right opinion. And God is just a bit wiser than fools.
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ASALTYDOG: “my purpose in drawing attention to this fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christians sees evidence for God out there, in the real world, supporting the truth of their worldview.”
ERASMUS: Again, more lying. You just said that you Believe First Then You Know.
ASALTYDOG: That does not contradict at all what I wrote above. But I understand that lacking the warrant for logic may drive one to conclude that he doesn’t have an obligation to be logical either. The fool. And once again, lest we forget, do tell me Erasmus, what’s so bad about lying?
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ERASMUS: Don’t believe, me, O Deceiver? “I have insisted that all creation is evidence for Christianity.” See. Ontological Silly Buggers. And you know this.
ASALTYDOG: And what’s bad about deceiving, while we are at it? Oh, you’re a hard one. Again there’s absolutely no contradiction or lie involved in saying that I believe first, and then I know, and then adding that all creation is evidence for what I believe.
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ASALTYDOG: “those who grow science, logic and ethics in their own backgarden, and those who come and steal these precious products when nobody’s looking.”
ERASMUS: More lies. You don’t possess logic or science, you possess the Sorcerers Explanation. When you argue for revelation, you deny everything that is based on experience. Science. it doesn’t matter if the keys fall up tomorrow. Science can deal with that by adjusting. You can deal with that by just saying ‘It’s Allahs Will’ and going back to picking your nose and demanding that the hair in your boogers is evidence for creation.
ASALTYDOG: You’re losin’ all your highs and lows. Ain’t it funny how the feeling goes away? What’s wrong with piling up a bunch of lies? I know you like the logic I am growing in my backyard, but you should really consider growing up your own. You want logic? God hands out logic for free over there. You have had in you mail an invitation from Him to just go and get it for some time now. Now it seems to me some fine things have been laid upon your table, but you only want the ones that you can’t get. In any case, I am going to guard my backyard with a rifle all night long. Can your science adjust to a man rising from the dead on the third day? And then ascending to heaven? Freedom, aye! Oh freedom! Well, that’s just some people talkin’ — your prison is walking through this world all alone. Prove that when I “argue for revelation”, I necessarily “deny everything that is based on experience.” Then, prove it again, but assume your worldview is true, as you should have done the first time. And don’t your feet get cold in the winter time?
_______
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People that believe in magical creation and then go to certified medical doctors are hypocrites. They use the knowledge they deny exists for personal benefit even though every doctor and scientist sees evolution as the foundation science for botany, physiology and biology.
They want to stop that knowledge and keep it from future generations by eliminating it from the school curriculum and replacing it with the study of the invented occult. When others point out this is what they want to do, they deny it. How they can deny this is a mystery.
The science of evolution is rarely taught in secondary schools and never taught in primary schools in this country and all because of the pressure of the religious who push their arcane practices. They are insulted when their occult and arcane practices are described as occult and arcane even though the description from any standard dictionary perfectly fits their supernatural beliefs.
Many of their High Priests wear robes and mystic symbols. They all make mystical “gestures” and “pray” as if it has some actual effect on the real world. Statistically, prayer and wishing have equal success.
When any of these facts are pointed out to them, they shout out mystical quotes from their arcane texts and magical scriptures, which gives the impression they are drowning out any possible voice of reason.
The attempt to replace science with mysticism and the so-called “study” of the supernatural is slowly, very slowly giving way to rational thought. Many scientists refuse to take part in the discussion. To them, it’s like discussing the removal of nuclear waste with the Beverly Hillbillies.
However, with the introduction of an alcoholic ignorant former cheerleader into the White House that led directly to the resignation of many of the nations best scientists, for the first time, said scientists are getting involved in the process. Hopefully, the trend continues.
As the fiasco that is Iraq as well as letting Bin Laden, the greatest mass murderer in American History, go, scientists and the educated are becoming aware of the importance of their participation in the US governmental process.
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Going way back to the beginning of this topic, I saw another misconception in Harrison’s original post that I wanted to comment on.
Even though evolution is Fact and Proven and True, evolutionary scientists somehow keep wanting to come up with a new idea to prove it
Evolutionary scientists are not working from a motivation to prove evolution. Among them, it’s not in doubt, and most of them don’t waste a lot of time trying to engage the Salty Dogs of the world.
Judson’s article just describes some recent findings. It’s not about saying, “See? We’re right!”
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Even though evolution is Fact and Proven and True, evolutionary scientists somehow keep wanting to come up with a new idea to prove it, even resurrecting old ideas that have already been discredited
This only demonstrates a determined ignorance. It’s not possible to have a rational discussion. I bet this same person goes to a certified medical doctor. The same doctor who studies biology, botany and physiology. The same three sciences that rely on evolution as their foundation.
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Saul
“ASALTYDOG: Then it boils down to this. You say that the reason why it’s “wrong” and “false” for me to “claim an ontological priority” that I have “no epistemic right to” or possibly “access to”, is that I don’t “have any means of parsing what is true from what is not.””
No, Prevaricator. I say that you have no epistemic access to the ontological arguments you claim are so compelling that they have founded the basis for modern science.
In order for what you claim to be true, you would need to establish that your ‘revealed’ knowledge is true knowledge. Of course it is trivially true that it is not knowledge, and that you are at the very least mistaken. What I am interested in is demonstrating that you do know this to be true, and in fact are dishonest about your representation of that toddler epistemology.
You know better than what you say. You are probably also savvy enough to know that tu quoque is as tu quoque does. So, why would anyone claim to believe in such intellectual immolation? You do violence to yourself to claim such absurdities.
You don’t have any sort of basis for questioning the moral standards of anyone: you gave this up when you believed that what you were told was true, when you were told it. The great thing about your magical special revelation is that it is just as valid as every single other piece of magical special revelation, just like my magical special revelation where Your God told me that You were going to Hell no matter what you believed and no matter What You Thought That He Had Said To You About It.
And this is the mess that is left after we boil your thick soup of ignorance and category error down to the primary elements.
1: Belief comes first.
2: If U Can Haz Belief, Can HAz Knowledj
3: If God Say o noes, no can haz knowledg, may b u just think that you can haz gnawlej.
4. Then Apostle Paul say you falsely so called no can haz scients
5. Die and Go To Hell do not pass go or collect 200 dollarz.
6. Mebbe Goto 1 depend on particular can haz flavor of jesusianism
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When I was a kid going to college, there was evolution and then the biological sciences. In the 40 years since, you can go to any college or university and take classes in newly discovered sub-topics of evolution. Most of these didn’t even exist when I was a kid. This is because the knowledge is expanding every day. EVERY DAY!!!! Why would we put chains on our brains and shackle our minds to mysticism? It’s outrageous.
Evo-Devo
Examples of evolution
Genetics
History of life on Earth
Macroevolution
Microevolution
Natural selection
Speciation
Phylogenetic systematics, a.k.a. evolutionary trees
Mechanisms of evolution
human evolution
processes:
adaptation
convergence
creative evolution
divergence
emergence
extinction
processes (cont.):
mosaic evolution
natural selection
parallel evolution
selection
speciation
variation
properties:
analogy
properties (cont.):
homology
theories:
biogenetic law
Darwinism
Dollo’s Law
Lamarckism
missing link
orthogenesis
biological sciences
biology
coevolution
convergence
cultural evolution
divergence
ecotypic evolution
enation theory
endosymbiont hypothesis
gastraea theory
heredity
morphology
natural history
serial endosymbiosis theory
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What I am interested in is demonstrating that you do know this to be true, and in fact are dishonest about your representation of that toddler epistemology.
The extremely long and convoluted posts are a sign of just that. He is, actually, a good writer. But a good writer knows that saying something concisely gets the point across clearly and effectively.
Posts that take 20 minutes just to read, diverge into sidetracks and are padded with redundancies are the hallmark of either a very bad writer — which he is not — or a good writer trying madly to obscure the holes in his argument by papering over them with multiple layers of rhetoric.
All of the words he spent in this thread could have been replaced with:
Paragraph One: If you don’t believe in the God of the Bible, you have no reason to assume your keys will always fall when you drop them.
Paragraph Two: I believe it because it’s true, and I know it’s true because I believe it.
Paragraph Three: Everything that exists is evidence that I’m right, because I declare it to be. See Paragraph Two.
But putting it plainly like that makes it far too apparent how poor an argument it is.
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ASD: I told you: I want to see the internal consistency and the warrant for science, logic and ethics. Scientology does not pass the test. Neither does Darwinism. Neither does Deism.
And I told you: I want to see the physical evidence that shows Genesis to be true. You’ve produced none. You just keep repeating “it all does,” without one lick of explanation as to how.
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steve i was always curious what the pun was about ED Ott
I just began to wonder if it was because the entire issue is about QED QED QED. A glimmer of understanding extinguished by the tard.
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380. by Erasmus 02.06.08 at 1:16 pm
Hi Chosen
Go look at the distribution of particles in a stream bed. You will find what you seek.
- Wow, just got back, nope, that was individual stuff deposited as it was swept along. Much like the trailing edge of the snow drifts. Stuff get deposited and looks really neat and “orderly.” But that has nothing to do with evolution and order going to disorder, life to death.
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STEVEG and ERASMUS,
We are approaching fast the end of the road. You guys have heard an argument for the Christian God which was devastating to your views. How do I know that? Because you do not engage it.
As for Steve “whining” G, it has come down to whining that in order to engage my argument you have to stop and pay actual attention to what I am saying. How can somebody who complains about that then go ahead and correctly summarize his opponent’s argument? Answer: he can’t. Your misrepresentations of my argument is indeed a standing testimony to the fact that you have kept the attention span of a duck. I have nothing more to tell you, Steve, in the unlikely event that you are still reading this. Farewell!
As for Erasmus, you don’t engage my arguments either, which is okay for me. It has come down to telling me, “You can’t be serious!” I have nothing more to tell you either. You are amazed and exasperated that you can’t answer my questions and give an account for the tools you are using. I told you to put down my tools and start using your own, which you refuse to do. But what really infuriates you is that all your king’s horses and all your king’s men can’t put your Humpty together again for you, while I have accomplished all this by simply believing the Bible. That drives you mad with envy. Call me what you want, sir, but that won’t fix your Humpty, ever. I have nothing more to tell you either. Farewell!
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384. by SteveG 02.06.08 at 3:07 pm
Chosen at #379: Hmmmm, you want to take away my reference book, the truth, and substitute it with external evidentiary support.
If your book reports the truth about the physical creation, then the actual physical creation will lead to the same place, no?
- It does. Your problem is you don’t believe it, hence, you must find something to explain it. The resulting lie denies the truth of the Bible. Evolution becomes the religion, leading to the god, man. In the begining God created the heavens and the Earth. He is the first cause. Without Him nothing was made. While to some it may seem trite, He said it and I believe it. In order for the theory of evolution to work, there had to be something as the first cause. It would have to start with something, the first Atom (not Adam), yet something had to create the first Atom. Your religion doesn’t have a first cause. If you take what God created and build another system off of it, you would still come back to creationism. So, where did your first Atom come from?
Look out your window. Everything you see starts out in order and goes towards disorder as it dies / wears out. Because there is a defect in it. I submit nothing starts in disorder and works towards order.
This is a statement of the second law of thermodynamics, often cited by Creationists as “proof” that natural evolution can’t happen.
What the Creationists don’t understand is that the second law of thermodynamics applies only to a closed system where the amount of energy is finite. On Earth,the sun is constantly pumping new energy into the system.
- The universe, all of creation, is a closed system, and the sun is part of it, would not therefore the second law of thermodynamics apply? You can’t look only at the microscopic, you have must look at the whole. God upholds all things by the word of His power.
Order from disorder? Snowflakes, formed from formless water vapor, become six-sided, symmetrical crystalline structures. Seeds become plants. The shapeless goop inside an egg becomes a bird. Two cells that meet in a woman’s uterus become a human being with all its complexity.
And those are just a few off the top of my head.
- With the exception of the snow flakes all the others are seeds and are its kind reproducing its kind. The life death life cycle. This was brought about by sin. The penalty of which is death. Not only for us with souls but the whole of creation. Another example of the second law of thermodynamics or entropy (which you referred to in a closed system without the reintroduction of more energy).
- The snow flakes are an example of the first law of thermodynamics. Energy can be changed from one form to another yet can’t be created or destroyed. It was created by God in the beginning, He determined the boundaries and there they stand until He decides to change them.
- I’m not a learned scientist nor am I as well versed in the scriptures at I ought to be. What I do know, if evolution is true, then God would be a liar and the foundation of the scriptures would be destroyed. However, the change wrought in my heart by God, the down payment of the Holy Spirit and the intercession by Jesus Christ on my behalf are all the proof I need in the truth of the scriptures.
- Thanks for the thought provoking threads and comments.
- If the keys don’t fall, neither will we….. What happens when gravity gets turned back on….. I’m glad God is in control of all things and of course there are no accidents, only purposes….try that on the police officer.
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Steve (#370): “Can you prove the existence of the God of the Bible without citing the Bible as evidence? From external evidences?”
Yes we can. At first, look into your mirror, please. How come there’s somebody there? You may see a creature, a helpful monster or some other variation of a developing humanoid form – hopefully. Or you see a person designed by your heavenly Father. A person who is given a conscience which either tells you do right or you o wrong. (To be sure, we can switch off the conscience, unfortunately.) This person in the mirror was maybe given a God-designed task of imitating Him as being himself a father, as an obedient son, as someone who is loving his neighbors, somebody who is loving his wife passionately. Naturally, one can say “love”, “obedient”, “conscience”, “passion”, or even worse “right” or “wrong” have no ultimate meaning. What if they had? What a great adventure your fatherhood, your sonship could then be. Yes, and you can hold somebody responsible for having told lies or half the truth.
But you can look at much more than at yourself. Look at the ants. Look at the trees. Look at the fish. I know, this may all sound like a little child writing. But rather be a little child, allowing for Him to be visible in anything than being royally clueless – like you must be.
However, God has revealed Himself. God has redeemed this world already. And all creation points to Him. But of course, one can look into the other direction. You are free to do that. Even this “freedom” points to him.
Without Him, I repeat, you can’t account for anything, not even for YOUR existence.
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Throughout the thread there are some people claiming keys would hover in the air instead of dropping to the ground. What do I mean?
As Harrison Scott Key has stated there are no “billions and billions of fossils in the ground that would show these billions of hopeful and hopeless monsters”. In other words, there are no SUCH keys hovering in the air. Why? Because they drop. Even though some people have all the so-called self-correcting science and their evidences in their wardrobe. Now I say this wardrobe is empty. What you find there is at most interesting for … Kojak.
Throughout this thread I was told by some people that they’ve got these hovering keys in their wardrobe. They added they sure have them and no-one else. They didn’t know how they got them, though. They couldn’t account for their existence either. Fair enough, they even begged for an explanation from others. The others said, the keys drop to the ground. Now something IS fishy here and someone is telling lies. What if you guys opened the doors of that wardrobe now! And don’t keep saying you want to wait until tomorrow as you try to figure out how the content might be hovering in the air.
I hear the horn of a police-car. The house is surrounded. Someone wants His keys back. He wants them to drop to the ground, as He wants it to happen. The guys are asking for mercy. But they don’t understand the meaning of that word. Because it has to be written with a capital M.
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STEVEG:
You have run, you have crawled, across the forest, across rivers, through the fields, you have climbed highest mountains, and you have scaled these city walls, these city walls, only to escape the force of what I am saying. But you still haven’t found an answer to my questions. And I am still running after you with my dogs.
Just to demolish the last one (#392) in a long series of desperate lies you shout at me as you keep running, long posts do not necessarily mean “multiple layers of rhetoric”, and “long” is not a synonym for “convoluted”. This time you whine about “posts that take 20 minutes just to read, diverge into sidetracks and are padded with redundancies…” Oh yeah?
I started off saying things quite concisely. Like this: You: “Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time” Me: “Easy: the zoological, historical, and soteriological implications of the biblical revelation. In short, if dinosaurs and dogs didn’t live at the same time, I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, so therefore dinosaurs and dogs must have lived at the same time.” But that kind of conciseness didn’t appeal to you either. Your reply to that post of mine was “Well, there’s no point in continuing then. . . . Just curious … before you got saved, did you take a lot of hallucinogenic drugs?” I piped, but ye would not mourn. I played Blue Suede Shoes on electric guitar, but ye would not dance.
I have continued saying things with as much conciseness as was required by the topic at hand. As you kept asking questions, I kept answering them, unlike someone I know. Some of my posts — mind you, posts — have been long, but as anybody actually glancing at them will have to admit, that is because they contained many separate short, concise units, each addressing a particular issue which you wanted me to address or which I wanted to bring up, most of which you simply went on to ignore. I also provided context in my posts for your convenience and to aid your understanding of the issues involved, which turned out to be mostly useless. By adding context the posts became larger, but my comments remained short and to the point. Yes, two or three times I threw in a parody or a song to compensate for the general boredom of standing in line for hours for an answer and not getting it. Keeping the readers interested somehow is a thankless job, but someone’s got to do it.
Anyway this has been the exception. The rule has been that you received from me a flood of short answers and questions, and your basement is a mess. My word processor tells me that the average one-point-comment you received from me has been around 90 words long, which makes it shorter than this very paragraph you are reading. And I am pretty sure even a duck, in certain cases, has an attention span longer than 20 minutes. As you evidently need some help, try sitting down and listening to In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida until the end. No, wait, that’s only 17 minutes. Well, try a short movie by Charlie Chaplin.
Even if you don’t say anything new, which you presently aren’t, as I read your old posts I see that I could keep my hose running for days over your house. So many other things to say, so little time. But why bother. Your basement is a chaos already. The wisest rats have abandoned your house days ago, and are lining up to get a different sort of baptism at the church downtown.
As for your totally worn out “I want to see the physical evidence that shows Genesis to be true. You’ve produced none. You just keep repeating “it all does,” without one lick of explanation as to how”, read what I told Erasmus at #367 (”Several Christians…”) in what, according to Microsoft, is an unusually and uncharacteristically long paragraph for being something I wrote. But I recommend you go to the bathroom first. My answer to Erasmus also answers your objection here. The fact that you are a Deist is irrelevant. Your Deism can’t provide the warrant for the intelligibility of scientific, logical and ethical propositions, plus you can’t know your God is a Creator. You keep on ignoring what I say when you talk to evidentialistic Christians, and you keep on ignoring what they say when you talk to me. Also try diving in your basement and there’s a small probability you’ll be able to retrieve my “But then stop…” paragraph at #366.
And talking about probabilities, you never got around to explaining exactly what was it you calculated when you revealed that the probability of the Bible being false is 99.999999999 percent, and that the chances of the world continuing to work as it always has before are 99.9999999999 percent. Incidentally I am sure you are slightly upset by your results, which indicate that the chances a serpent once spoke turn out to be higher than the chances your keys won’t fall the next time you drop them.
It’s a Brave New Science. Drunken shamans claim to be the Protectors of Scientific Truth. The air is filled with mystical talk about strange, occult laws and odd, inexplicable predictions about trees and rocks and keys. Folks, get your Bible and join me as we rescue science from these fools.
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Folks, get your Bible and join me as we rescue science from these fools.
Magic will “rescue” science?
As I pointed out in 391 all the new fields of science born from evolution. How many new fields of science from “mystical creation”?
This is a perfect example of “determined ignorance”. Sad.
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steve i was always curious what the pun was about ED Ott
It’d E. D. Ott … eediot!!
Self-deprecating puns are always worthy of a hat tip.
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Thank you SteveG!
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Chosen at #397:
- It does. Your problem is you don’t believe it, hence, you must find something to explain it. The resulting lie denies the truth of the Bible. Evolution becomes the religion, leading to the god, man. In the begining God created the heavens and the Earth. He is the first cause. Without Him nothing was made. While to some it may seem trite, He said it and I believe it. In order for the theory of evolution to work, there had to be something as the first cause. It would have to start with something, the first Atom (not Adam), yet something had to create the first Atom. Your religion doesn’t have a first cause. If you take what God created and build another system off of it, you would still come back to creationism. So, where did your first Atom come from?
Perhaps you haven’t tracked the whole discussion, but I actually do believe God is the First Cause. I just believe the methods he chose to create are discoverable by man and not revealed in a book.
There are many Creation myths in various religions past and present. Genesis is not special in that regard.
Contrary to what you and the Seasoned Canine continue to insist, belief in God does not require a literal belief in Genesis.
[SteveG] What the Creationists don’t understand is that the second law of thermodynamics applies only to a closed system where the amount of energy is finite. On Earth,the sun is constantly pumping new energy into the system.
[E.D. Ott] – The universe, all of creation, is a closed system, and the sun is part of it, would not therefore the second law of thermodynamics apply?
It applies to the entire universe, the whole system. Energy lost from the universe is not recoverable and therefore there is a slow and inexorable trend toward entropy.
Subsystems within the universe, however, can gain energy. The sun itself is gradually losing energy as well, but while it burns, some of that energy is transferred to the Earth.
The whole system loses energy, but the Earth gets a continual input of new energy. This situation will not last forever, but for now, that’s how it is.
Order from disorder? Snowflakes, formed from formless water vapor, become six-sided, symmetrical crystalline structures. Seeds become plants. The shapeless goop inside an egg becomes a bird. Two cells that meet in a woman’s uterus become a human being with all its complexity.
And those are just a few off the top of my head.
- With the exception of the snow flakes all the others are seeds and are its kind reproducing its kind. The life death life cycle. This was brought about by sin. The penalty of which is death. Not only for us with souls but the whole of creation.
OK. Apart from the Bible, what evidence do you have that death was brought in by sin? There should be clear evidence then than nothing ever died until humans lived.
- The snow flakes are an example of the first law of thermodynamics. Energy can be changed from one form to another yet can’t be created or destroyed. It was created by God in the beginning, He determined the boundaries and there they stand until He decides to change them.
Ah, I see. So order never comes from disorder except when it does, and then it’s God making it happen?
- I’m not a learned scientist nor am I as well versed in the scriptures at I ought to be. What I do know, if evolution is true, then God would be a liar and the foundation of the scriptures would be destroyed.
Only if you demand a literal interpretation. Many Christians are able to accept the truth of science and the truth of God without seeing a conflict. But you can’t do it if you demand Creation happened in six days. And the weight of the real world’s evidence is stacked so high against that view, you make yourself look foolish to try.
However, the change wrought in my heart by God, the down payment of the Holy Spirit and the intercession by Jesus Christ on my behalf are all the proof I need in the truth of the scriptures.
Yep. “I believe it because it’s true, and I know it’s true because I believe it.”
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ASD at #400:
I started off saying things quite concisely. Like this: You: “Find me one shred of evidence that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time” Me: “Easy: the zoological, historical, and soteriological implications of the biblical revelation. In short, if dinosaurs and dogs didn’t live at the same time, I would still be in my sins. But I am not in my sins, so therefore dinosaurs and dogs must have lived at the same time.” But that kind of conciseness didn’t appeal to you either.
Fair enough. I guess it took all the rest of the words to try to justify your arguing a demonstrably untrue proposition (that dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time) using your personal spiritual belief as evidence.
Tom Cruise’s evidence that you are lousy with thetans is his belief that Xenu came to Earth in his space ship 75 million years ago. Why aren’t you convinced yet?
You are right though about one thing: I do officially retract my complaint about long posts, as you make a fair defense of them. Please note that when I agree I was wrong about something, I have the integrity to say so.
I concede no other points, though.
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ED OTt i get it now. Good’un.
Saul, you say you have no more to say. I say you have never said anything at all, save “I believe it therefore it is so”.
Ontological silly buggers. You are good at it. It is still sillybuggers.
EDOTT
“As Harrison Scott Key has stated there are no “billions and billions of fossils in the ground that would show these billions of hopeful and hopeless monsters”
You agree. All HSK has done is made a fantastically stupid comment about his misunderstandings of what biology is even about.
No biologist on earth believes that there must be billions of these hopeful monsters. 20 and 21 century biologists have falsified the hopeful monster hypothesis, as posed by such saltationists as Schindewolf Bateson Berg Broom etc etc. It’s not part of biology. Perhaps you should prod the sleeping drooling HSK and tell him that, I dont think it is possible to arouse him from his ignorance.
Now, none of this matters to SaulTDog. It can’t, because evidence is Nothing to him, all that matters is I believe It Therefore It Is So. Is that really an honest position? He does not have the warrant that is so precious to him, because he confounds faith and reason. In a very tediously contrived sort of way.
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EDOTT
“As Harrison Scott Key has stated there are no “billions and billions of fossils in the ground that would show these billions of hopeful and hopeless monsters”
It’s ok. He doesn’t know what a fossil is or how one is made. Some believe that God put them into the ground to show us what life on other planets look like. Others believe that God put them in the ground to give dogs something to dig up. Still others believe random rock formations sometimes look like bones but aren’t.
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Wait RDean, I thought God let Satan put the fossils into the ground to trick the people God loves into going to hell.
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Why is it easy to believe in angels and demons, but not fairies and leprechauns? I like leprechauns; they dress cool and carry gold.
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STEVEG at #405:
Good post, Steve. I appreciated that.
If I wanted to be a pain in the neck, given your notorious lack of warrant for logical validity, necessity and obligations, I would keep running after you with my dogs also now, in this delicate moment, though.
And I would ask you once more how you can possibly demonstrate anything, including the falsity of what I said about dinosaurs. “Demonstrably untrue proposition”, eh? Sure, by stealing my logical, scientific and ethical tools when nobody is looking, that is by presupposing that the world is what the Bible says it is. But why would you do that? Because if you presuppose that the world is what the Bible says it is, then of course dinosaurs and dogs lived at the same time, which is precisely my point. And rest assured that all readers by now are carefully checking your every move, monitoring your posts to see if you get too close to my tools. I hope they don’t start calling me to warn me you touched my tools, otherwise the phone would ring all the time. And no use complaining that it is problematic that I assume the truth of the Bible and then I reason that the Bible is true. You do the same: you use reason to prove reason, evolutionistic assumptions to prove evolutionistic conclusions, and deistic assumptions to prove deistic conclusions. This is the point where every system, not only Christianity, if it wants to be consistent, needs to appeal to its own standards if it wants to prove its own conclusions. But what must be the case if logic is to be possible at all? Or ethics? Or science? Why do I have an obligation to affirm the conclusion of a syllogism? Why be rational? What should be the case in order for me to have an obligation to tell the truth? Because logic and ethics demand it? Why should I care what “logic” and “ethics” demand? Because your deistic God wants it? How does a Deist know what the God of Deism wants? And what claim does that God have over me that I should obey him? How should I know? Evolutionism, atheism, deism and scientology fail to provide the preconditions for such things as these.
These are the the questions you must ask yourself. The choice you have is that you must either accept the God of the Bible or deny ethics, logic, rationality, and the knowability itself of the universe. Somebody here thought I only pretend to have knowledge. The truth is that only Christianity establishes the possibility of knowledge. Throw away Christianity, and the possibility of knowledge forever escapes you as well. That is why modern science was born in the Christian West, out of Christian presuppositions about the universe. That is part of the reason why secular scientists still manage to get correct results: because while they deny the Bible, at some basic level they still secretly pretend the world is what the Bible says it is. They don’t let the theory of evolution consistently take full control of their worldview. If they did, only irrationality would follow, and irrationality would in turn destroy the theory of evolution. I don’t need to disprove the theory of evolution. If let loose, the theory of evolution devours itself. Evolutionists therefore carefully keep the theory in chains, and they need Christianity to provide the locks.
You do the same. When you are bored about this debate, when you are tired of telling me I can’t “prove the existence of the Christian God”, you take a break. You go out shopping. You will do that with both pockets full of Christian presuppositions. There will be Christian presuppositions sticking out of your socks. Your face will be so smeared with Christian presuppositions that one could thrust a pin in your skin half an inch deep, and you still wouldn’t feel pain. During your short trip to the store, in the space of roughly one hour, you will thoughtlessly and effortlessly assume the falsity of about all the major and minor worldviews and religions, including your own. Instead, you will assume the truth of Christianity and the existence of the God of the Bible with the stubbornness and the candor of a Southern preacher. You will do that thoughtlessly and effortlessly. You need to do that in order to preserve your rationality. In order to find the shop. In order to choose what to buy. In order to reason about the price. In order to stand for your rights when somebody tries to get ahead of you at the counter. In order to prove to the lady at the counter that she still owes you 50 cents. In order to get back home. Then you will go back to your computer, you will come back to this debate, and in order to win his approval you will applaude the first fool who says Christians are lying hypocrites.
But I don’t want to be a pain in the neck all the time, and in such a delicate moment as this I hold my dogs. I let you run away, for now.
I am confident that by God’s grace, as you will reread this discussion some time from now, when the heat of the battle is long gone, you will concede many other things about my posts besides the fact that they were actually readable. You will have to, if you want to save your own rationality. The only alternative is deep hypocrisy, or madness. You ain’t gettin’ no younger, and your pain and your hunger they’re drivin’ you home.
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Saul
the world is not as the bible says it is. For instance, bats are not birds. the world was not covered by a flood in which everything perished save 8 venereal disease infested humans and a boat load of animals. so, your premise is flawed. and your logic is flawed anyway.
you don’t own the assumption that the universe is stable and observable. it predates your christianism, and if one examines your christianism they find that this assumption has nothing to do with christianism anyway, as you amply demonstrate by denying natural law and claiming that with god, venus flytraps and cougars can swim across the pacific ocean. of course they could, as they also could with zeus mithra the Great Spirit and every other imaginary skybeast that men have ever concocted including the imaginary sky beast which you worship.
but you have already noted that you are not interested in information that does not fit your narrowly contrived mythology. that includes all of it, pretty much.
I believe it, therefore it is so.
you dont have to be a hypocrite to be an idiot. fortunately you seem to be a member of both camps so delimitation is not a problem
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Can we all finally agree on something here?
For instance that there is logic. And that it can be flawed. But if you say so, you need to assume that there is — logic. You need to assume a bunch of things you may not like to swallow. In case you don’t take all that stuff – don’t fiddle around with it as if it didn’t exist.
If you all want to disagree on the existence of logic, let’s happily throw it out of the ship (which hopefully won’t sink as a result during the next second). No comment on this thread has then any meaning. It may have some relative meaning to you, guys, but it is totally irrelevant what you all said.
“Bats”? Was that some kind of sound?
“Deism”? Just a joke.
“Evolution”? How come?
“Christianity”? Easy: That can’t be.
“Planck Constant”: Oh, that’s a hard one!
If you guys finally agreed on one thing – the necessity of assuming some kind of system in order to think, account for, and so on.
It may be fun digging bones in the mud and put a time tag on them. Fine. But you need other things first in order to play the scientist. You need logic and yes, you do need ethics. You need “right” and “wrong”. It isn’t so much fun anymore to go down all the way to find out where this logic comes from. Actually, it is maybe stupid to go back and think about statements such as “A is not B”. But we need that system in order to make science. In order to make sense of the world around us. If you want to avoid the long road then be ready to be critized when you make false conclusions (about the wet street in Norway for example).
Erasmus, I like your confidence in (#411) “the world is not like the bible says it is”. If there is no absolute “right” or “wrong” in this world you could account for, you sound pretty funny. If you have no other than a biblical witness about the flood, it can’t have happened. Sounds like a system: John F. Kennedy must still be alive, as there is no murderer.
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ED so the flood happened but the waters receded and nothing was changed. all the birds came back to life and the flowers just grew back and now you can’t even tell. Anywhere on earth.
Ok dude.
not sure what you are talking about with the rest of it.
are you saying that venereal diseases weren’t carried by noah and his sons and daughters and family? how could that be? where do they come from? didn’t some guy way back a long time ago show that flies doesn’t come from rotting meat?
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I think now we’re finally getting to the interesting part of the thread. This is what science should be doing more often: We presuppose for more than a minute – and without contemptuous laughter – that the content of the Bible was true. Let’s roll up our sleeves then.
I have a hard time starting, though. Your post implies whatever comes next is a joke and can’t be taken seriously. Am I wrong? You seem to know already in advance what kind of nonsense I’m going to say next.
Can I assume you asked these questions seriously? If so, could I ask a question first? What do you mean by “… and nothing was changed”? I didn’t understand that.
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If you guys finally agreed on one thing – the necessity of assuming some kind of system in order to think, account for, and so on.
It may be fun digging bones in the mud and put a time tag on them. Fine. But you need other things first in order to play the scientist. You need logic and yes, you do need ethics. You need “right” and “wrong”. It isn’t so much fun anymore to go down all the way to find out where this logic comes from. Actually, it is maybe stupid to go back and think about statements such as “A is not B”. But we need that system in order to make science. In order to make sense of the world around us. If you want to avoid the long road then be ready to be critized when you make false conclusions (about the wet street in Norway for example).
Nobody’s argued that we don’t need logic.
It’s a very long way to go from “logic works” to “the existence of the God of the Bible, and only the existence of the God of the Bible, explains why logic works.”
That case has not been made.
And I’m sure we can carry on, but I must note the warning message says comments for this post will be closed in two days. It’s been saying that for about four days though, so I’m not sure it means anything.
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“This is what science should be doing more often: We presuppose for more than a minute – and without contemptuous laughter – that the content of the Bible was true. ”
Why should we presuppose this?
Science values evidence, not your cherished presuppositions.
Why should we not presuppose that the turtles go all the way down?
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Thanks for your remarks (#416 and #417).
I’m a bit worried about you, guys. We all watch the world around us with some kind of glasses. You find a bone and according to your glasses you assume that it is x years old. I have my own glasses and maybe draw another conclusion about the age of that bone. Didn’t you understand at all what ASaltyDog tried to explain to you? If you had at least understood that. You both suppose science can be done without any presuppositions, don’t you?
Erasmus, I agree we don’t need my cherished presuppositions. We need presuppositions which — make sense. Why couldn’t we for the sake of fun or seriousness assume that your systems was wrong as its presuppositions can’t account for “right” or “wrong”. Logic can’t work without these words.
I admit, even with the right presuppositions we can make faults. And even with the wrong presuppositions you can be at times right. You may not understand me. For me playing science makes only sense if we play by the rules. And we must be able to challenge these rules. But I think, you only want to play with bones. Nothing else seems to matter. If I was wrong with my conclusion about the age of that bone how could you prove me wrong without the real foundation, with flawed logic and so on? You don’t know why we ought to be honest in science. Why be scientific at all?
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ED I’m not sure what you mean by much of what you say.
The assumptions that make aging bones possible are the same assumptions that make nuclear power possible, or particle accelerators, or travel to the moon. Why should anyone suggest that the radioactive dating is wrong? Simply because they argue from consequences, or in this case what you perceive to be the consequences (I mean the nonsequitor of your assertion that science can’t account for ‘right’ or ‘wrong’)?
that of course is another story. can you demonstrate that right and wrong objectively exist?
I understand why literalists are drawn, as you are, to the postmodern fallacy. Interpretations, worldviews, all that. It is a distraction from the observed fact that your theories about reality are absolutely at odds with everything that we know. This I mean with respect to a young earth, evolution by speciation from common ancestors, humans are animals, the utter failure of anyone to find the elusive soul, etc etc.
You have to argue about ontological fluff because the real facts at hand say you are wrong.
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For me playing science makes only sense if we play by the rules.
So what do you do when you start with the presupposition that the universe behaves in predictable ways because the God of the Bible makes it so, and based on that you do your scientific investigation … which proves a literal reading of Genesis, can’t be true?
What you’re proposing is that we start with the assumption that the ancient myth is fact, and just disregard all evidence that says otherwise. Or insist that it supports that story when it clearly does not.
That is not logical in any way at all.
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SteveG wrote: “So what do you do when you start with the presupposition that the universe behaves in predictable ways because the God of the Bible makes it so, and based on that you do your scientific investigation … which proves a literal reading of Genesis, can’t be true?”
For the first part of the question: God made the universe in such a way that allows us to make predictable statements about it. That is why Erasmus has got it right about nuclear power and the travel to the Moon. Let us give praise to the Lord for that! But of course, we could give praise to Him for a lot more! Now for the second part: What exactly proves a literal reading of Genesis can’t be true? (If you have got a lot of objections, let’s deal with these things one after another, okay?)
SteveG wrote: “What you’re proposing is that we start with the assumption that the ancient myth is fact, and just disregard all evidence that says otherwise. Or insist that it supports that story when it clearly does not.”
Well what is wrong starting with my assumption? You start with the assumption that the myth is wrong. I think we should try to make sense of the real world around us (as was said previously), take ONE myth, you name it “evolution” or “science” and account for all we can see and experience. Now it is clear that with your myth you couldn’t account for logic. I agree, you try to use it. And you may make better use of it than I do. But to make use of logic and to account for it isn’t the same thing. Can’t you understand what I’m shooting at? Evolutional theory can’t provide the preconditions of intelligibility. Okay, so let’s try another myth! Let’s take the Bible for once. Let’s go to Genesis.
And Erasmus wrote: “can you demonstrate that right and wrong objectively exist?”
Shoot. This is that kind of question that requires a “yes” or a “no”. But in your science you can’t account for them. Sorry, what do want me to answer then?
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ERASMUS at #411:
_______
ERASMUS: “bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz” [static].
ASALTYDOG: [ STOP ]
ASALTYDOG: [ REWIND ]
ASALTYDOG: [ CLICK ] [He switches ON Christian assumptions about reality]
ASALTYDOG: [ PLAY ]
ERASMUS: “bzzzz… the world is not as the bible says it is. For instance, bats are not birds. the world was not covered by a flood in which everything perished save 8 venereal disease infested humans and a boat load of animals. so, your premise is flawed. and your logic is flawed anyway.”
ASALTYDOG: All you do here, sir, is to reason that if we start from your premise, then my conclusion is incorrect, which in turn proves my premise is incorrect. This is madness.
_______
ERASMUS: you don’t own the assumption that the universe is stable and observable.
ASALTYDOG: A desperate, mere assertion. I proved I own it, and you refused to show evidence it belongs to you. Complain as you wish, the police has already surrounded your house.
_______
ERASMUS: it [the assumption that the universe is stable and observable] predates your christianism
ASALTYDOG: Not in my book, sir. I could just as well point out that dinosaurs could not have possibly evolved millions of years ago because the world was not yet created way back then. Now, I do believe that this is a true statement, and that it is an argument which is both valid and sound. But I recognize that it does nothing to challenge your premises. You would reply, “Not in my book, sir”, wouldn’t you? (No, you wouldn’t. That “sir” part I mean.) You have the obligation to admit that it is a sound argument only if you accept the argument’s premises as true ones. But the truth of the premises is precisely what is being debated. This is why I said that it is completely futile to debate like you are doing, by pretending you don’t have premises of your own. You pretend there’s such a thing as neutrality here. You pretend I am the only one with assumptions. You are bluffing. If you deny you’re bluffing, and if you claim you have no assumptions, show that there was no Flood without assuming that the Bible is wrong and without assuming the truth of evolution. You don’t do that, sir, you are bluffing.
_______
ERASMUS: and if one examines your christianism they find that this assumption has nothing to do with christianism anyway, as you amply demonstrate by denying natural law and claiming that with god, venus flytraps and cougars can swim across the pacific ocean. of course they could, as they also could with zeus mithra the Great Spirit and every other imaginary skybeast that men have ever concocted including the imaginary sky beast which you worship.
ASALTYDOG: More nonsense and more lies. As I have already shown, denying “natural law” is not the same thing as denying the uniformity of nature. As I have already shown, believing in the sovereignty of the Triune God over nature does not destroy the concept that the universe is stable and observable, it establishes it. Prove that the antichristian sky beasts you mention provide the foundation for science, logic and ethics. You don’t understand what I said about swimming. One of the things evolutionism destroys is humor, and you are certainly a consistent evolutionist in that. Then you talk about “natural law” as if you had proved from your worldview that there is such a thing, which you have consistently refused to do. Your argument here against my position boils down to asserting that since Christianity denies the existence of lyscrebwigs, therefore Christianity is inconsistent with the concept of the uniformity of nature. Sir, you are insane.
_______
ERASMUS: but you have already noted that you are not interested in information that does not fit your narrowly contrived mythology. that includes all of it, pretty much.
ASALTYDOG: What information? All you have provided has been theoretical reconstructions based on your assumptions about the world. I don’t accept your assumptions, so your theoretical reconstructions strike me as something having the logical cogency of something Chico Marx might say. I can say the same of you, that “you are not interested in information that does not fit your narrowly contrived mythology, and that includes all of it, pretty much.” I don’t want to listen to your lies, and you don’t want to listen to my accusations. The true difference between us is that the police has surrounded your house, not mine, with the charge of theft.
_______
ERASMUS: you dont have to be a hypocrite to be an idiot. fortunately you…
ASALTYDOG: [ CLICK ] [He switches OFF Christian assumptions about reality]
ERASMUS: …seem to b . . . bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz [static]
_______
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Saul. Nice Chewbacca defense.
“ERASMUS: you don’t own the assumption that the universe is stable and observable.”
You don’t. You’re a liar. See Democritus, Diogenes Laertius, others. They predate your 2000 year old cobbling together of pagan myths that you call christianity.
” I could just as well point out that dinosaurs could not have possibly evolved millions of years ago because the world was not yet created way back then.”
Of course you could, and would, because your argument is just ontological rhetorical silly buggers that does not value evidence, simply assertions from a dusty old book that does not have the authority that you give to it.
“One of the things evolutionism destroys is humor”
You’re humorous, don’t get me wrong, but not in the way you think. Glib witty willfull ignorance is still willfull ignorance.
“I don’t accept your assumptions, so your theoretical reconstructions strike me as something having the logical cogency of something Chico Marx might say”
What you don’t accept is that assumptions may be tested. Your silly worldview crucible is just another assumption. It fails. Your only resort has been the postmodern fallacy.
Christian assumptions about reality are that there IS NO SUCH THING, only the will of gods. Your pagan solipcism does not give you the support to justify wiping your rear end, since it may be that it is not even dirty and if it were gods would take care of it. You are a Last Thursdayist, and I’ll fight to the death for you to remain so. Because it is hilarious.
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ERASMUS (at #422): You’re a liar.
ASALTYDOG: Liar? Liar? What’s that? I asked you before, you never got around to explaining to me what that means, but you keep on using the word. Mmm. Mr Ott, should I call the police?
ERASMUS: See Democritus, Diogenes Laertius, others. They predate your 2000 year old cobbling together of pagan myths that you call christianity.
ASALTYDOG: You are making a fool of yourself. Christianity begins in the Garden of Eden. And God predates even that. Now what?
ERASMUS: “I could just as well point out that dinosaurs could not have possibly evolved millions of years ago because the world was not yet created way back then.” Of course you could, and would, because your argument is just ontological rhetorical silly buggers that does not value evidence, simply assertions from a dusty old book that does not have the authority that you give to it.
ASALTYDOG: Folks, I understand your frustration, but my theory is that since even a broken clock shows the correct time twice a day, Erasmus will sooner or later fail to miss a point, so please, please, please, stick around, okay? Erasmus, I am sorry, my comment was way too complicated for you. It went way over your head, and it’s my fault. Let me start with something simpler. Once upon a time there was a bear. With me so far?
ERASMUS: You’re humorous, don’t get me wrong.
ASALTYDOG: You can’t know that. I own humor, too. Seriously. Without Christianity you are not only a totally irrational, meaningless, purposeless, worthless bag of dirt, but there’s nothing to laugh about that, or anything else, either. You laugh only because down deep inside you know that the Triune God really exists. That’s how pitiful your condition is. And your feet, they do get cold in the winter time, don’t they?
ERASMUS: What you don’t accept is that assumptions may be tested. Your silly worldview crucible is just another assumption. It fails. Your only resort has been the postmodern fallacy.
ASALTYDOG: Can your assumptions be tested, Mr Evolutionist? I sent you invitations every day for several weeks, and you always refused to come to my lab. I sent you questionnaires, and you never returned them. Did you leave town? No problem, I’ll run also after you with my dogs. As for my assumptions, what test didn’t I pass? I answered all your questions. And something tells me that you will now reveal to the world you were indeed rooting for Bob — and all the readers will have a hearty laugh. Don’t worry Erasmus, it’s okay. So this little bear had a friend on the other side of the river. Get it?
ERASMUS: Christian assumptions about reality are that there IS NO SUCH THING, only the will of gods.
ASALTYDOG: Correct, and since the evolutionary assumptions about reality are that you are a big fat liar, doesn’t evolution mean that God exists?
ERASMUS: Your pagan solipcism does not give you the support to justify wiping your rear end, since it may be that it is not even dirty and if it were gods would take care of it. You are a Last Thursdayist, and I’ll fight to the death for you to remain so. Because it is hilarious.
ASALTYDOG: Wow guys, I don’t know about you, but that was so funny I just wept. No doubt somebody will approach me on the street tomorrow and ask me, “What do you mean, wise guy? Eh? Can there be more sensationally hilarious things in life than hearing Erasmus mention dirty rear ends? Eh? Name one.” Folks, I honestly don’t know what I will answer to that guy on the street, but I do think we all need to give Erasmus a break, because after you remove the impressive shamelessness, the outrageous hypocrisy, and the spectacular lies (which I already exposed, but he doesn’t care), anybody can see that behind the rough facade is hidden a heart that is truly resentful. I tell you what’s funny, Erasmus. Funny is a random, purposeless, worthless bag of meaningless, irrational dirt, lost in the vastity of a purely meaningless space, which pronounces the word “solipcism” with the look in its eye of someone who thinks he has made a point.
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I tell you what’s funny, Erasmus. Funny is a random, purposeless, worthless bag of meaningless, irrational dirt, lost in the vastity of a purely meaningless space, which pronounces the word “solipcism” with the look in its eye of someone who thinks he has made a point.
Not to mention, “I’ll fight”.
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Bob: Say, what could there be, hidden in that box? I think there’s a man hiding there. By the way, I am an evolutionist!
Harry: I say, it’s a cat.
Voice: Miaow!
Harry: Did you hear that? I heard a miaow, which is consistent with my assumption. Of course it’s a cat. You are an evolutionist? Cool! Me too!
Bob: No, of course there’s a man hiding there. Since it’s a man, that miaow was certainly the hidden man’s own miaowing. And since that was a man’s miaow, it can’t be a cat’s miaow. And if it’s not a cat’s miaow, that goes on to prove that there’s no cat in the box, as you have mistakenly assumed. And did I mention I am an evolutionist?
Harry: Yes you did, and once again so am I! Let’s hug! [They hug.]
DISCLAIMER: This is NOT intended to illustrate our debate. It’s intended to illustrate the absurd logic of Erasmus in the comment above. Harry is NOT a Christian, he’s an evolutionist. Bob is another evolutionist. There. But of course some fool or another will completely disregard this disclaimer. Well, sir, go ahead, make a fool of yourself, whoever you are.
Your disclaimer is correct. If this imaginary dialogue illustrated the debate, it would go like this:
Bob: Say, what could there be, hidden in that box? I think there’s a man hiding there. By the way, I am an evolutionist!
Harry: I say, it’s a cat.
Voice: Miaow!
Harry: Did you hear that? I heard a miaow, which is consistent with my assumption. Of course it’s a cat. You are an evolutionist? I believe in the God of the Bible. I know it is a cat because my ancient book says so!
Bob: No, of course there’s a man hiding there. Since it’s a man, that miaow was certainly the hidden man’s own miaowing, trying to sound like a cat. And since that was a man’s miaow, it can’t be a cat’s miaow. And if it’s not a cat’s miaow, that goes on to prove that there’s no cat in the box, as you have mistakenly assumed. And did I mention I am an evolutionist?
Harry: Yes you did. Too bad for you, only the God of the Bible makes logic possible. And God’s Own Book tells me it’s a cat in the box.
Bob: I know! Let’s open the box and see.
Harry: No! There’s no need to open the box. My book says it’s a cat so it is.
(Bob opens the box. A man stands up and utters a “miaow” before exiting stage left.)
Harry: See? It’s a cat!
(Curtain.)
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Salty Dog at #423:
ERASMUS: See Democritus, Diogenes Laertius, others. They predate your 2000 year old cobbling together of pagan myths that you call christianity.
ASALTYDOG: You are making a fool of yourself. Christianity begins in the Garden of Eden. And God predates even that. Now what?
Now you tell us how you can say that with a straight face.
Be well in your reality-free world, Dog.
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A Silly Dog said:
ASALTYDOG: Not in my book, sir. I could just as well point out that dinosaurs could not have possibly evolved millions of years ago because the world was not yet created way back then. Now, I do believe that this is a true statement, and that it is an argument which is both valid and sound. But I recognize that it does nothing to challenge your premises. You would reply, “Not in my book, sir”, wouldn’t you? (No, you wouldn’t. That “sir” part I mean.) You have the obligation to admit that it is a sound argument only if you accept the argument’s premises as true ones. But the truth of the premises is precisely what is being debated. This is why I said that it is completely futile to debate like you are doing, by pretending you don’t have premises of your own. You pretend there’s such a thing as neutrality here. You pretend I am the only one with assumptions. You are bluffing. If you deny you’re bluffing, and if you claim you have no assumptions, show that there was no Flood without assuming that the Bible is wrong and without assuming the truth of evolution. You don’t do that, sir, you are bluffing.
We don’t do it because it is futile with you.
We could show you that a wooden boat of the ark’s dimensions wouldn’t be seaworthy.
We could show you that any boat of the ark’s dimensions would not come close to having enough room for animals of every species.
We could show you that the species of the Earth require such a wide variety of habitats and diets they could not have all survived in the same environment, nor could the ark have carried enough of the many types of food needed to sustain them even if it could have held them all.
We could show you that the small number of people on the ark would have had nowhere near enough time to feed and clean up after the animals even if the ark could have held all the animals and their food.
We could show you that the volume of water required to cover the whole Earth to the depth specified in the Bible story could not have been held in the atmosphere.
We could show you that there’s no evidence in the Earth itself for a global flood. Not in geologic strata, not in ice cores. Not in tree rings. Not in the polar ice caps, which should not exist to the degree they do had they been flooded out a few thousand years ago.
We could show you that the distribution of fossils in the strata is nothing like what a sudden extinction in a catastrophic flood would be expected to create.
We could show you that the strata include remnants of features that could not have been created except on exposed surface, such as raindrops, dinosaur footprints and wind-blown dunes.
We could show you that many species of plants survived the flood, even though being submerged for months would kill them.
We could show you that fish, even those that require a habitat that a flood would have destroyed, survived the alleged flood.
We could show you all these and a hundred other points of physical evidence against the possibility of a global flood, and the only assumption required would be that reality is real.
But you would wave you had and declare that God did it and accuse us of missing the point, and then declare yourself the winner.
So what would be the point?
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ERASMUS: See Democritus, Diogenes Laertius, others. They predate your 2000 year old cobbling together of pagan myths that you call christianity.
ASALTYDOG: You are making a fool of yourself. Christianity begins in the Garden of Eden. And God predates even that. Now what?
SteveG (#426): Now you tell us how you can say that with a straight face.
Kojak: You say that, of course, with the straightest face, I assume. (Sucking his lollypop) And of course, you could show “that the distribution of fossils in the strata is nothing like what a sudden extinction in a catastrophic flood would be expected to create”. (With a big smile on his face) You must have some really big experimental laboratory! The Tsunami in Thailand a few years ago was nothing compared to the Flood. Not even worth a note in the newspaper.
The point is, you can show that what you said, I bet — but only with the blind glasses of evolution. They look on your very straight face pretty silly. As if you were a bad clown or something. Children won’t laugh at you. I notice something is wrong with that guy.
It turns out to be a senseless discussion. I had rolled up my sleeves. I wanted to be cooperative. You have got the intelligence. But you have got the wrong glasses. And looking through them, you can’t account for “yes” or “no”. I think I am able to discuss with you on some level having put down my Christian glasses. But not even for a second you have taken off yours. You don’t even grant that you are wearing glasses. Glasses which don’t allow for the existence of the God of the Bible. Why? Because of a fuzzy presupposition “which proves a literal reading of Genesis, can’t be true?” Your glasses rest on that assumption, an assumption you didn’t yet justify or explain. Your explanation so far has been something like: The content of the Bible, or more precisely Genesis can’t be true. It is impossible.
As it may be appealing to conclude like this, you aren’t playing by the rules of the game. That is one thing. But to consistenly point the finger at Christians who provide you with the foundation of science and blame them for that, that is a shame.
Maybe I can handle that in a little play which goes like this:
Daddy: Boy, brush your teeth!
Son: (Erasmus may excuse my rude use of the next word as it doesn’t objectively exist) No!
Daddy: If you don’t brush your teeth, you’ll have caries.
Son: Daddy, I don’t have caries. But Mommy has bad teeth! She must brush her teeth!
Daddy: True. But that is another story.
Son: Mommy! Daddy says, brush your teeth!
Some explanations:
caries: ultimately wrong and deadly results in science
Daddy: A salty Christian on this thread
Son: a clever child, ends up with caries some day
teeth-brush: account for science
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The point is, you can show that what you said, I bet — but only with the blind glasses of evolution.
No matter how many times you insist this is true, it isn’t.
Just considering what we know about water, land and animals, my entire list in #427 shows that no global flood has occurred. I don’t need to assume evolution to know there was no flood. I need only to assume that physical objects and animals behave as we see them behaving.
You will not accept this, because you have decided to believe there was a flood and to insist that all evidence supports it, even though it doesn’t.
You are not only wearing glasses, you are wearing dark glasses that go with your white-tipped cane.
My position, contrary to your repeated insistent assertion, does not require that the God of the Bible not exist. It does. however, require that if the God of the Bible does exist, he speaks to people sometimes in parables. Stories that are not literally true but that illustrate some important spiritual principle.
Hey, I think I read somewhere that he does …
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STEVEG at #425:
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ASALTYDOG (#421): But of course some fool or another will completely disregard this disclaimer. Well, sir, go ahead, make a fool of yourself, whoever you are.
STEVEG: Your disclaimer is correct. If this imaginary dialogue illustrated the debate, it would go like this: . . . (Bob opens the box. A man stands up and utters a “miaow” before exiting stage left.) Harry: See? It’s a cat!
ASALTYDOG: Well, folks, I told you so.
I told you someone would pick up the story of Bob and Harry, use it to illustrate the present debate, and publicly embarrass himself. I put a warning with a disclaimer, to give everybody pause, but to no avail. The cunning little fox came, read my warning sign, used it to climb into the chicken yard, and got an electric shock he will remember for some time. The cunning little fox was a fool. When nobody was looking, Steve came out of the hole in which he was hiding from me and my dogs, read the disclaimer, nodded to it, but he couldn’t resist. He thought changing a few words here and there would disactivate the security mechanism. Steve is a fool.
I have three things to say.
First, Steve, you are bluffing, or you are not thinking, or possibly you are bluffing because you are not thinking. If your logic-free revised version of the adventures of Evolutionist Bob and Christian Harry is meant to illustrate our debate as you claim (Once again, my story wasn’t), there’s no way Bob can open the box. Christian Harry would not just refuse to open it. He would smile and say, “Yeah, right! Go ahead!” The box would not open. It’s sealed with a Bob-proof titanium coat. Bob can’t open the box just as surely as you don’t have a time machine. Opening the box would be equivalent to go back in time and see for yourself what happened all those years ago. Palaeontology is not a time machine, Steve. No science can open the box. The past is gone forever. All you have is a number of imaginary historical reconstructions based on a theory, which is in turn based on a multitude of debatable and questionable assumptions. If that’s our debate, then Bob and Harry can’t solve the mystery of the box by opening it. In our debate nobody opened the box. Nobody will open the box any time soon. In the evolutionistic model, the box will never be opened. In the Christian model, the box will be opened when we meet our Creator. Of course I do carry a note from Him telling me in advance what’s inside the box. It’s not a mystery to me. That’s because I believe Him. You can refuse to believe Him, but you can’t open the box.
Second, for this reason it is also childishly arbitrary for you to have a miaowing man come out of the box. The only reason the miaowing man comes out is that you want your guy to win the bet. But in that story, a cat could have just as well come out, with Evolutionist Bob insisting it’s a man in a cat’s suit — which would have made a funnier story. The rightness or wrongness of Bob’s and Harry’s guesses was a flip of the coin, making your story pointless. There was nothing in the story that should have tipped Harry and Bob one way or the other. Actually, no, there was. The miaow does make Christian Harry’s guess the most reasonable, while Evolutionist Bob makes a really wild and risky guess. So even in your story, it was eminently reasonable for Christian Harry to make the guess he did. Which brings me to my next point.
My third point is the most important. As Louis Armstrong once said, “There are some folks that, if they don’t know, you can’t tell ‘em”. This applies to jokes. My story was intended to illustrate how ridiculous was Erasmus’ argument at #411 to the effect that “the world is not what the Bible says it is.” Now comes Steve, and he mindlessly repeates my joke without understanding what’s funny about it. He gives the silliest line to the hero of his story with no understanding whatever that the line is silly. Steve made some changes, but he left basically intact Bob’s argument that Harry’s assumption is wrong. In Steve’s revised story Bob adopts precisely the same ludicrously absurd logic he embraces in my original story, which was designed to carefully repeat Erasmus’s incoherent logic. Bob starts with assuming his conclusion, interprets the evidence according to his own assumption, and then proceeds to claiming that this “proves” that Harry’s interpretation of the same evidence must be wrong, and he goes on to assert that since Harry’s interpretation of the evidence is wrong, this in turns proves Harry’s own starting assumption must be false. Now I hate to explain jokes to people who don’t get them, but folks, this is funny. (Hint for the retarded: consider what goes on when the “proves” word in double quotes appears.) So Steve, in your story Bob surely turns out to be right about the box (and only because he was lucky enough you wrote the story so he could win), but his argument was a such a messy and seedy affair that it should be illegal to show it to children under fifteen. In other words, Bob won but he deserved to lose.
Wow, I’m exhausted. Work it out by yourselves. I feel like I have to explain to a humor-deaf undertaker from Siberia why a Groucho Marx one-liner is funny, which if you don’t understand it by yourself, as Louis Armstrong would say, is something that rivals rocket science in complexity.
So my point is this. I thought illustrating with a joke the irrationality of a typical evolutionist argument would be enough to drive the point home, but surprise surprise, the evolutionists don’t get the joke! Steve implicitly tells us he thinks there’s nothing unobjectionable to Bob’s logic. This should tell us something about evolutionist argumentation in general. You see — now get this folks — Erasmus’ Fallacy (also called Steve’s Blunder) is by no means a rare, irrelevant, secondary matter in this discussion. The reason why I am making so much of it is that whereas the Christian argument avoids this trap (see my #367), the evolutionists’ argumentation in this forum has been a constant repetition of this fallacy. That explains why Steve got a formidable electric shock in spite of the fact I even warned him to stay away because there’s danger. He is so used to thinking in those illogical terms that he doesn’t recognize the fallacy anymore. He is probably still scratching his head and wondering what hit him. I fully expect him now to come back and demand an explanation of what it is we guys are all laughing at. Malcolm Muggeridge said that the theory of evolution will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Yes, I say, and folks, the future belongs to those who have already started laughing.
Finally, if World on the Web ever decides to publish this discussion as a serious stand-alone book, and if, in order to supply the book with serious illustrations, they need serious photos of the main serious personalities involved in this forum, I recommend finding headshots of Erasmus and Steve as they sit through Horse Feathers.
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STEVEG at #427:
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ASALTYDOG (to Erasmus): But the truth of the premises is precisely what is being debated. This is why I said that it is completely futile to debate like you are doing, by pretending you don’t have premises of your own. You pretend there’s such a thing as neutrality here. You pretend I am the only one with assumptions. You are bluffing. If you deny you’re bluffing, and if you claim you have no assumptions, show that there was no Flood without assuming that the Bible is wrong and without assuming the truth of evolution. You don’t do that, sir, you are bluffing.
STEVEG (answers for Erasmus): We don’t do it because it is futile with you. We could show you . . .
ASALTYDOG: Steve, you simply made a list of reason why all readers now can safely conclude you are unfamiliar with Christian and creationist literature and theology. One example:
We could show you that the volume of water required to cover the whole Earth to the depth specified in the Bible story could not have been held in the atmosphere.
That all the water of the Flood rained down from heaven is something some Christians may have thought in the past, but this is widely rejected today by creationists. And it’s instructive to realize that it’s entirely our fault we believed that in the past. We should have taken more seriously the Bible, since the Bible clearly says the water came from first of all from underground and secondarily also from above. Likewise the Bible says that when the Flood ended, the water supply stopped first of all from underground and secondarily also from above. This illustrates the fact that a creationist position or reconstruction or theory or claim, and the biblical account, are not necessarily the same thing. To prove wrong the former is not necessarily to prove wrong the latter. So this item in your list doesn’t show the Bible is wrong, but it does show you are uninformed both about the Bible and about Christian and creationist literature.
Most of your “we could show you”’s are based on unprovable assumptions about what the biblical record implicates. It must have happened this way, and therefore it couldn’t have happened. But his works only if you first show that it must have happened this way. Therefore far from causing me trouble, your list does little more than telling you all the trouble you must still go through in order to write a list that might come close to trouble me. I am not going to do your work for you. Furthermore nothing you listed here is something that hasn’t been discussed at very great length and depth by Christian theologians and creationist scientists for decades, often in intramural forums, so you really have troublesome days ahead.
Clearly all of your “we could show you” are simply many “we could show you”’s. Unless you show us, you haven’t shown us. And if you haven’t shown us, we can’t see. But as you say, you “don’t do it because it would be futile”. Great. This is the kind of confidence evolutionists have in their own ability to provide evidence that the Bible is wrong that is not built on circular reasoning or some other logical fallacy. Since you haven’t shown us anything at all, except your ignorance, your illiteracy, your confusion, and your personal problems with logical thinking, everybody is entitled to draw his own conclusion.
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STEVEG at #426:
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ASALTYDOG: You are making a fool of yourself. Christianity begins in the Garden of Eden. And God predates even that. Now what?
STEVEG: Now you tell us how you can say that with a straight face.
ASALTYDOG: Steve, this is classical, run-of-the-mill Reformed Christian theology. Off the top of my head, out of a zillion possible references, see http://tinyurl.com/yv7gf5 and http://tinyurl.com/2dy7mu and get http://tinyurl.com/kfh47
And that God actually predates the Garden of Eden is something I can’t prove with a straight face. Sorry, I tried, but it doesn’t work.
Incidentally Steve, you tell Mr Ott that your position “does not require that the God of the Bible not exist. It does. however, require that if the God of the Bible does exist, he speaks to people sometimes in parables. Stories that are not literally true but that illustrate some important spiritual principle. Hey, I think I read somewhere that he does…”
I appreciate the fact that your position is magnanimously willing to allow the Triune God to exist, but if your position wants to be called Christian instead of pagan or cultic it needs to get one thing straight. It is the Triune God the one who requires your position to sit down, and listen, and repent, and believe. Everything, from Genesis to Revelation. As for parable-talk, you’ll have to see for yourself if Genesis is parable-talk. Study the Bible, talk to pastors and theologians of different persuasion, read and compare the best books supporting different views.
The one insanely irresponsible thing to do would be to choose to believe that Genesis is parable-talk because the theory of evolution demands it.
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SteveG (# 429) “I don’t need to assume evolution to know there was no flood. I need only to assume that physical objects and animals behave as we see them behaving.”
Remember that you were (#364) willing to change your mind if the data demand that. But you sound ridiculously lost when you stated before (#364): “The only presupposition I bring to the debate is that our own reason and the evidence of the physical world are reliable guides to discovering truth.” You asssume all the time something more than before. Or you drop the previous assumptions.
Thus, you do have one (and only, if you like to verbally diminish it) presuppositon. Actually, if read correctly, your presupposition consists of a bit more. “Our reason”. Who does “our” refer to? Could you specify? Deists’s reason? Christians’ reason? Leftists’ reason? Hitler’s and his friends’ reason?
In case you assume – as you did – reason to be your presupposition, please make clear whose. If you assume – as you did – physical evidence (as if reason and that evidence went together hand in hand as one thing), you assume a bit more. You assume as well that there is no God of the Bible. Don’t tell me now that you don’t exclude Him. You do when you don’t allow for Duh Flood. And if you don’t allow for Him your reason remains a thoughtless bubbling, your evidence becomes worthless as you don’t have any scientific (and logical and ethical) means to examine it. And your background god is out of the game, too. Sorry.
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Wow. I’m glad I took a break from this for the weekend, seems like the same old puerile idiocy.
a:God exists.
b:Why?
a:This book.
b:What?
a:This book says he exists, and I believe it, therefore he exists.
b:What else does that book say exists?
a:This, and that.
b:Well, look, this suggests that this and that don’t exist the way that book says.
a:Thief, you are stealing the logic that this book invented and using it against the book.
b:What? Are you on your meds? Evidence against this book is ac
tually evidence FOR this book? Please don’t spit when you talk.
a: that’s right. an omnipotent omniscient omnipresent being could do anything it wanted, and make it look like anything had happened.
b: that’s is so painfully stupidly trivially obvious that it makes my eyes bleed. Can you answer one question? What makes you think that there is such an omni-beast?
a: this book says so.
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christianity: being like or following christ, right?
by definition it could not have begun before your christ.
Saul you are willing to lie for your jesus so much that you will redefine simple words instead of admitting that you are wrong.
creationism in general is a massive monolith of “neener neener” to the facts that suggest beyond a shadow of doubt that perhaps the bible doesn’t say all that much about the history of life or even the history of anything. One enormous testament to the pig-headed denial of reality by those who do understand that caving to reality would undermine their power base.
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To SteveG, still regarding my #431.
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While you are busy making a list of conditions the Triune God is required to sign in order to be allowed to enter your club as a mascot, and while you are also investigating what must have been the case during the Flood that would in turn show the Flood didn’t happen, let me further help your thinking concerning the latter. You have wasted so much time trying to run away from me and my dogs that it’s in your best interests we make this short. You are hiding somewhere in the forest or in a cave, but I’m sitting down on this hill under this tree playing guitar, patiently waiting you will show up exactly at this particular spot. So let me put another warning here.
You cannot study what must have been the case during the Flood. You cannot even study what most likely was the case. The past is gone, and many things about the past will remain forever out of your reach. In particular, the Flood is described in the Bible as an utterly exceptional act of judgment carried out by God, which the Bible repeatedly compares to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as for scope and expectation-defying nature. This means that it is question begging to use the present so-called laws of nature to make estimations of what must have been the case during the Flood. First, there are no laws of nature, only God’s usual, customary ways of doing things. Secondly, God sovereignly brought about the destruction of the prediluvian world. He explicitly promises uniformity of nature after the Flood is over, thereby implicitly telling us that the Flood was something you cannot consistently investigate down to the smallest detail by considering the way the world operates now. Likewise God’s act of Creation is over, and God rested on the Seventh Day. This means that present natural processes are not, according to the Bible, processes that caused the creation of the world. Whatever processes God used during the Creation Week, God has stopped using them 6000 years ago. If you use current natural processes to extrapolate that Genesis is wrong, you are begging the question. You are assuming that present processes have continued uninterrupted since Day One of Creation (whevever that was) until the present day. This is something the Bible explicitly denies. You are not doing an internal critique of Christianity. You are simply importing to the discussion premises which are alien to the Bible. You are begging the question. I could just as well calculate, from the marks we put on the wall that followed the growth of my 10-ear old daughter, the rate at which she has been growing lately, and extrapolate that 200 years ago she must have been 0.3 microns tall. Which in turns proves she is much older than 10 years, doesn’t it? This way of reasoning assumes that the present, observable processes, are the ones that caused my daughter to be born. But of course the truth is that there were processes that caused my daughter to be born which cannot be measured by staring at the wall, and which stopped working soon after she was conceived. Most of evolutionary cosmology and dating techniques are busy in this futile, question begging activity.
It is interesting, as a thought exercise, to study the Flood in the light of the present uniform behavior of nature, but you cannot be sure you know what you are talking about. Such thought-exercises, at best, will only lead you to appreciate in what sense and in what respect the Flood was an exceptional act of God. Theory at this point does not necessarily match history. Formulas on the blackboard cannot tell for sure what actually happened. I disagree with creationists who make it seem as though everything about the Flood or Creation must have happened and can be explained according to “the laws of physics”. That’s not how the Bible talks about it. So you cannot use the laws of nature to prove the Flood didn’t (or did) happen for the same reason you cannot use the laws of nature to prove Jesus couldn’t possibly (or could) have walked on water, or multiplied the fish. You may find this line of defense amusing, but this is really where you should appreciate the internal consistency of Christianity. This is the point where we say, “I told you that God exists!” When you read about God’s mighty acts in history (also known as miracles) you have a situation similar to black hole physics, big bang physics or quantum physics. There’s a point where the experts will tell you some questions can’t be answered in terms of the laws of physics as we know them. Even in secular evolutionary thinking, the laws of nature are not absolutely reliable judges, but they break down at some point. A singularity is crucially enbedded in Big bang physics. Singularities defy the laws of physics we are accustomed to, so certain key questions about the Big Bang go outside the scope of science by definition. How convenient, I smile unconvinced, just as you smile unconvinced when I talk about God’s sovereignty over nature. In a debate on evolution and creation, it’s not a matter of whether natural laws break down. It’s a matter of where they break down. So the winner of this debate is not the one who first shouts “You are breaking the laws of nature!” Both parties do.
Instead, the matter is solved by inquiring which party independently provides the prerequisites for having logic, science, and ethics at all. In these posts I have argued that your worldview loses the battle with Christianity at this crucial point. You have been unable to engage my argument. Therefore I call you to repent of your false worldview, and to run to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith. He is the Creator. He is the Savior of sinners. He is the Savior of science. He is the Savior of logic. He is the Savior of ethics. Run, don’t walk, to Him. This is the only way you can preserve your rationality. This is the only way you can start seeing the world the way it really is. This is the only way your sins can be forgiven.
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Erasmus, you tell me what evolution says, I tell you what Christianity says. Moses believed in Christ, Abraham is the father of Christian believers, and the Christian Gospel was first explained to Adam and Eve. For proof, get a Bible and start reading it.
Wow, some guys have a need to publicly reveal their ignorance, their illiteracy, and their confusion on a daily basis. Whatever, if that makes them happy. Erasmus keeps on coming back here for his daily supply of embarrassment, so I must be doing something right.
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“I tell you what Christianity says”
False, Liar. you tell me what YOUR OPINION says. you can play postmodern fallacy games all day long about how we distinguish between competing opinions. I’ll stick to what has been repeatedly observed over and over and over and over and over and over. It works, which is good enough for science. Your navel gazing is another enterprise altogether.
“Moses believed in Christ”
prove moses existed. oh yeah, the bi-ble-tells-me-so. in singsong voice.
“Abraham is the father of Christian believers”
so christianity began with abraham? a little inconsistent, even for you, aren’t we?
“the Christian Gospel was first explained to Adam and Eve”
since adam and eve is a fable, this makes it difficult to support your point.
I’ve got the bibble, and i’ve read it several times. you can make it say anything you want. as you have.
Saul, I’m a tardologist. You are eat up with it. I love it so. Particularly when you boil your argument down to the nitty gritty, it’s all post modern relativism over and over again.
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Erasmus (#434): “Wow. I’m glad I took a break from this for the weekend, seems like the same old puerile idiocy.”
Amen!
I’m glad you finally understood. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it that you woke up now. I admit this was a long discussion and somebody seems to have a point to keep this thread going. At least, you woke up to this idiocy. May I interpret this as a good sign?
So can we now move on? Take off your presuppositions for the little rest of the time that is left and stop shooting like a sniper.
All your gorgeous building called evolution is based on the assumption of having a solid fundament (that everything came into existence without the God of the Bible – and in a different way than explained in Genesis). You send all these posts from the highest floor. I recommend you take the elevator and come down for a moment. I promise I won’t bother you with presuppositions as long as you leave yours inside your house. Actually, I am scared that the building still collapses as long as you are in there. Maybe you get a feeling for what I mean if you happened to see the movie “The House of the Spirits” – the book is written by Isabelle Allende – in which the old senator Truebo all the time believed the army would take care of all those stupid communists in the country. He trusted them so hard that he couldn’t believe the army would devastate the country and besides that, that the soldiers would torture his daughter.
It seems, you have been on a Christian hunt so far. You have a certain victory in hand as the whole world (talking of the few who really understand of what your science is talking about) is listening to you and is being fooled by the words mainstream media keeps repeating in case one “eediot” may forget them and make the doe become sour. You can tell almost everybody in this world what exactly happened a second after Big Bang and a lot more. But you do not know how you can account for an objective “no”. You do say “no” a lot of times, undoubtedly. And you are mad at those who say “no” to you. So call it an invitation if we check your points more precisely without your glasses. At least, you are stripped of a “no” already.
At least for the sake of all the people who are reading these posts we could give it a serious try to leave presuppositions and guns there were they are and let’s move on to step two. Let’s just take something you are interested in and let’s go through the venereal diseases, if you insist so much on them. So what is the problem with them?
But the warning is: If you bring along your gun, Kojak will ask you where you’ve got the ammunition from. And then out of a sudden you are the little guy, the one who doesn’t remember who gave him all that explosive stuff. Good that you know who had the explosives for the Big Bang.
We can make choices in life. We can choose that the Bible is wrong and can go on with that. All school kids in the world are repeating in their classes what they are fed by guys like you. As we know almost all your points the challenge now is, let’s try analyzing the existence of life according to what the Bible says. And let’s see whether we – opposite from you – can account also for logic and science.
After that we ask a communist if you like. Or someone else believing in – deism. Ready to go?
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Erasmus at #438 now asks for an overdose of public embarrassment. The guy is desperate. He has reached the end of the road.
Liar? Liar? Coming from you, “liar” already sounds like a compliment. Every time you call me a liar, sir, you remind everybody here that you have lost the debate. What’s wrong with lying, Erasmus? I asked many times that you show what that word means, and that you provide a justification for it, but you keep running away naked, scared to death, toward the forest. I hold my dogs now. All readers have seen enough. I have accomplished what I wanted. Keep on shouting from your cave, Erasmus. Nobody will pay attention to the screams of a crazy man.
The theory of evolution! Only a fool can believe that human beings descended from giraffes. If they did, why are there still giraffes around, wise guy? Eh? And how can mammals have evolved from reptiles, since reptiles evolved from fish? Eh? Tell me! An how is it possible that life started in the primordial soup, since the primordial soup is a fable? Eh, wise guy? Dinosaurs, eh? Prove dinosaurs ever existed, wise guy! And you better leave alone that keyboard. Don’t you dare tell me what the theory of evolution is! Don’t you dare tell me what logic is! Don’t you dare tell me anything! I am not interested in what YOUR OPINION says!
Erasmus, your reply is so childish and as to defy belief. What are you, eleven years old? Ten?
Sir, what I have said in this forum has effectively dynamited your worldview. Since I see no signs that you want to interact with what I have said, or that you are alive, for that matter, I declare the battle formally over. Where’s the beer? Time to party! Long live King Jesus!
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“We can choose that the Bible is wrong and can go on with that.”
All of this fluff may be boiled down this statement. Let us parse this closer.
“We can choose that the Bible is wrong.”
Already with the presuppositions. There is no reason to have ever considered the proposition that the bible is right. There is no dichotomy here. ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ does not apply any more than does the assertion that ‘Moby Dick’ is right or wrong, or the Building Code for Kalamazoo Michigan, or the instruction book for your VCR, or King Lear.
You presume that such an ontological category exists without being able to show that it exists.
For now, I’ll play along with the charming if naive popular fallacy that you all toss about blithely, namely that people have ‘worldviews’.
You simply presume, out of nowhere, the notion that one can bundle up all sorts of ontological presuppositions and call them a ‘worldview’, and that there is anything more natural about that group than a the items you encounter laying in the sidewalk on your way down the street, or the set of every seventh person you meet.
You can’t make any argument for such presumptions, but you claim them won immediately and with no other justification than personal whim (that, and you need these fallacies to feign support the other part of your argument).
Saul, you really did have the gall to say “I tell you what Christianity says”.
that makes you a liar in most people’s book. I’d say most people on this board, and brother I am reaching across this big wide aisle to say that. You don’t speak for christianity any more than I speak for white people, or Mary Cheney speaks for women. I’ll say “Shucks, didn’t mean for you to get all mad about it” if you say “Wow, I really did say something that I am pretty sure I knew wasn’t true when I said it”.
in the meantime,
“What’s wrong with lying, Erasmus?”
It seems that you claim that there is no reason to not lie, without believing in the Christianity that you speak for as a representative.
Now, here I assume that lying is not privileged, in your estimation, and that there is equally no account for choosing not to steal, not to murder, rape, beat puppies, spill your seed upon the ground, etc etc.
So, since there is this sticky problem of how to do comparitive analysis of ‘worldview’, it seems to me we can only conclude that you are arguing that For You you have no reason to not murder your wife, or sleep with her brother’s four year old, or decapitate the first eleven people you meet on the way to work, or blow up a mosque, For You you have no reason not to do these things if the Bible is Not True. And since I do believe that this is your argument (it must be according to the syllogism) I will cheerfully admit that it is indeed the best thing in the world for you to keep on believing that the Bible is Not True. But that is a pyrrhic victory.
Very well. These sorts of dichotomies are always false (the paradox is trivial). This binary claim is a simple claim to make, simple to believe, so simple that you presume that it applies to every single person in the world that does not subscribe again to the form of Christianity which you speak for as a representative. Is, Is-Not. The bible told me so (even though that is an altogether different and even more unsupportable claim, and the pluralism of religious traditions regarding the bible is another serious flaw in your argument).
You have no account for why you don’t steal. You have no account for why you don’t snatch up the little children and smash their heads against the stones. You have no account for why you do not give away your daughters to the strangers on the street.
Fine. I also have no account for why i do not sprout wings and fly to the sun and begin my kingdom there.
Strip all of the god-fluff off of this ‘you have no account’ foolishness and you are faced with the only truly philosophical question. And for you, dear Sishyphus, the only reason you do not? Because the bible is true? At the very least this is one of the most boring answers to that intriguing question, as has as ever been given.
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ERASMUS to Mr Ott: You presume that such an ontological category [the proposition that the bible is right] exists without being able to show that it exists.
ASALTYDOG: Teach him how to do it. Show that your nose exists.
ERASMUS: Saul, you really did have the gall to say “I tell you what Christianity says”. that makes you a liar in most people’s book. I’d say most people on this board, and brother I am reaching across this big wide aisle to say that. You don’t speak for christianity any more than I speak for white people, or Mary Cheney speaks for women. I’ll say “Shucks, didn’t mean for you to get all mad about it” if you say “Wow, I really did say something that I am pretty sure I knew wasn’t true when I said it”.
ASALTYDOG: Listen, if you want to go and attack somebody else’s castle, by all means take your donkey and ride on. If you want to attack me, my castle is over here. If you don’t want to ride to my castle, that is also perfectly okay with me. Just make up your mind. Should I abandon my castle? I don’t see why I should do that. Should my castle be located somewhere else? Perhaps, but now I won’t move the castle anywhere just to make your journey shorter. Most people call me a liar? I don’t believe in choosing my castle depending on how it will affect my popularity. My castle is ancient, I am in extremely good company, we generally like beer, and we all affirm the thing you have called into question, i.e. that the Christian Church started in the Garden of Eden. If some Christians from other Christian castles want to disagree with that and call us liars, as I am sure some will, this is still what Christianity says and what they too should believe. White people don’t have any obligations as white people to agree with you, but Christians have obligations to affirm certain things as Christians, which is something all Christians concede. The fact that a Christian covets his neighbour’s camel doesn’t make coveting camels legitimate for Christians. Finally, once again, you seem to think lying is something bad, but I have no idea why you think so.
ERASMUS: It seems that you claim that there is no reason to not lie, without believing in the Christianity that you speak for as a representative.
ASALTYDOG: No, that is not what I claim at all. I believe that people who do not believe in Christ have all kind of reasons not to lie. Oh, you’re a hard one — I know that you got your reasons.
ERASMUS: Now, here I assume that lying is not privileged, in your estimation, and that there is equally no account for choosing not to steal, not to murder, rape, beat puppies, spill your seed upon the ground, etc etc. So, since there is this sticky problem of how to do comparitive analysis of ‘worldview’, it seems to me we can only conclude that you are arguing that For You you have no reason to not murder your wife, or sleep with her brother’s four year old, or decapitate the first eleven people you meet on the way to work, or blow up a mosque, For You you have no reason not to do these things if the Bible is Not True.
ASALTYDOG: False, that is not my point at all. And do you mean there’s something wrong about all these activities? Random bags of stuff stumbling upon each other, aren’t we?
ERASMUS: And since I do believe that this is your argument (it must be according to the syllogism) I will cheerfully admit that it is indeed the best thing in the world for you to keep on believing that the Bible is Not True. But that is a pyrrhic victory.
ASALTYDOG: More nonsense. You are again making a fool of yourself. Now please put down that syllogism and back away slowly.
ERASMUS: Very well. These sorts of dichotomies are always false (the paradox is trivial). This binary claim is a simple claim to make, simple to believe, so simple that you presume that it applies to every single person in the world that does not subscribe again to the form of Christianity which you speak for as a representative. Is, Is-Not. The bible told me so (even though that is an altogether different and even more unsupportable claim, and the pluralism of religious traditions regarding the bible is another serious flaw in your argument).
ASALTYDOG: Hey, here’s a bunch of random, meaningless assertions. Good. I was just looking for this kind of stuff for my fireplace.
ERASMUS: You have no account for why you don’t steal. You have no account for why you don’t snatch up the little children and smash their heads against the stones. You have no account for why you do not give away your daughters to the strangers on the street.
ASALTYDOG: And here’s another bunch of mere assertions. With this I’m done for the fireplace tonight. By the way, what’s wrong about all that? Given your worldview, what’s the difference between those activities and a day at the beach?
ERASMUS: Fine. I also have no account for why i do not sprout wings and fly to the sun and begin my kingdom there.
ASALTYDOG: My point exactly. That’s why you lost the debate. You cannot account for anything at all. Your worldview sucks. It’s a mess. The sky won’t snow and the sun won’t shine, it’s hard to tell the night time from the day. You are naked and helpless, and your speech is reminiscent of Sting’s “De do do do, de da da da, is all I want to say to you”. So what are you doing here again? Do you want money?
ERASMUS: Strip all of the god-fluff off of this ‘you have no account’ foolishness and you are faced with the only truly philosophical question.
ASALTYDOG: Yeah, if my worldview wasn’t based on the Triune God, I wouldn’t have won the debate. The only reason why you lost is that I have had an unfair advantage.
ERASMUS: And for you, dear Sishyphus, the only reason you do not? Because the bible is true? At the very least this is one of the most boring answers to that intriguing question, as has as ever been given.
ASALTYDOG: Cool. So do I even win a T-shirt? Two plus two, four. How boring. How correct. Good luck on your quest for a less boring solution.
Is that all? And now, if you don’t mind, we are having a party here, and I have guests.
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Chewbacca
You are quite incapable of defending your ontology, so you replace that defense with silly. You could have your own blog. It’d go something like this I say “You cannot show that revelation yields knowledge” and you go “You are a thief, my dogs, in a castle, on a donkey, in the ballroom with a candlestick, I win”. And it would be great. As it is, great not so much. Just worn out bankrupt a priori presuppositionalism.
You are the one true scotsman, clearly. I suspect you have probably been accused of ‘notpology’ before. It would indeed be par for the course.
“we all affirm the thing you have called into question, i.e. that the Christian Church started in the Garden of Eden”
this is one of the litany of things you have added unto the scripture. naughty, isn’t it, how you do the very thing it tells you not to do. like lying. yet you justify it with what? your castle, and a donkey?
If you need the Triune God to keep from having sex with mallard ducks or from stealing from beggars, by all means. I wouldn’t want you to relapse. But it is question begging foolishness to claim that this is coherent. Again, you claim an ontological prior that you simply cannot provide any evidence for whatsoever.
” You cannot account for anything at all. Your worldview sucks. It’s a mess. The sky won’t snow and the sun won’t shine, it’s hard to tell the night time from the day.”
It sure is funny, O Deceiver, how I manage to find my way to work every morning, isn’t it. yet I do. If everything is the will of god, O pretender to knowledge, then you are dividing by one. You have reified experience and made it a prediction of your god, when there is no reason to suppose that. In fact, since according to you watches fall upward according to gods will you deny even experience, which ultimately means you deny your own ontological account. consistency, i have noted, is not your first virtue.
and what it boils to is that if the bible said two plus two = five, you would claim this was necessarily true. hint: there are such statements in the bible.
I will admit that I find your compartmentalization and doublethink more intellectually honest than apologists. You have said ’screw the facts, we have our facts and you have your facts’. That sort of reality-denial is impressive, if not admirable.
I think I’ll hang out with your party. I was always curious what the really cool kids were doing. I may never know, but you can serve as a proxy.
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#436:You cannot study what must have been the case during the Flood. You cannot even study what most likely was the case. The past is gone, and many things about the past will remain forever out of your reach. In particular, the Flood is described in the Bible as an utterly exceptional act of judgment carried out by God, which the Bible repeatedly compares to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as for scope and expectation-defying nature. This means that it is question begging to use the present so-called laws of nature to make estimations of what must have been the case during the Flood. First, there are no laws of nature, only God’s usual, customary ways of doing things. Secondly, God sovereignly brought about the destruction of the prediluvian world. He explicitly promises uniformity of nature after the Flood is over, thereby implicitly telling us that the Flood was something you cannot consistently investigate down to the smallest detail by considering the way the world operates now.
Which is just your longwinded way of saying what I predicted you’d say in #427.
This is, in fact, the heart of all of your claims of fact — you believe your book that it happened the way it’s written, but lo and behold, belief in the book is the only evidence because God in his wise sovereignty erased all other traces.
So fine .. no debate is possible then because you define away all possible objective and external tools.
Instead, the matter is solved by inquiring which party independently provides the prerequisites for having logic, science, and ethics at all. In these posts I have argued that your worldview loses the battle with Christianity at this crucial point.
And you’ve been wrong about that every time you’ve said it, which hasn’t stopped you from quoting Eagles lyrics and declaring victory.
Again, no debate is possible, because rather than try to actually engage another point of view, you think you somehow score points by being gleefully loony.
#432: I appreciate the fact that your position is magnanimously willing to allow the Triune God to exist, but if your position wants to be called Christian instead of pagan or cultic it needs to get one thing straight.
My position, fortunately for me, doesn’t really care what you call it, having lost all confidence in your ability to debate in good faith, or rationally, a few thousand words ago.
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You are quite incapable of defending your ontology, so you replace that defense with silly. You could have your own blog. It’d go something like this I say “You cannot show that revelation yields knowledge” and you go “You are a thief, my dogs, in a castle, on a donkey, in the ballroom with a candlestick, I win”. And it would be great. As it is, great not so much. Just worn out bankrupt a priori presuppositionalism.
Don’t forget the ace in the hole that he pulls out to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat: Eagles lyrics.
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Saul
could you explain to me the use of the Explanatory Filter? just a thought.
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chirp chirp chirp
where is the finch when you need him?
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His dogs ate him.
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Erasmus (#441):
>You presume that such an ontological category exists without being able to show that it exists.
Stating things like this at least, I see that you were bluffing all the way. You didn’t provide even a fart on this thread to prove that “no” might exist. Actually, the one you addressed this issue can presume a lot more. He or she can provide a worldview that is consistent and can account for such stupid things like for instance a dichotomy. You instead, are still drinking baby milk.
>For now, I’ll play along with the charming if naive popular fallacy that you all toss about blithely, namely that people have ‘worldviews’.
You using the word “fallacy” gave me a good laugh, really. For you who has no certainty that “right” or “wrong” exist. A fallacy if you allow for a short explanation can only exist if you can account for the falsehood of something. But fine, you who do see fallacies don’t seem to see worldviews? Is that correct? If you accept one more stop: The existence of a fallacy – do you go along with that?
So, the next thing is “worldview”. Let me give you an example. Have a pleasant seat. This is the setting: There is a hotel room, a man – a relative of yours and mine, too – lying on the bed, and seems to be dead. Next to him you see an empty bottle of pills. On the man’s head there is an injury as if he had been hit with a hammer. You come into this room and Rockford comes, too. What will you be doing? You being clueless (unless you generously accept the existence of fallacies), Rockford comes up with some scenarios what happened before that person died. Now Rockford will prove some things right and wrong, he’ll have the stomach’s content observed, finger prints, and a few other things, you name it. Assuming you’re not a cop, you wouldn’t maybe think as much about this. Yet, you’d make your own ideas about how our relative came to death as you knew him. You would base your ideas on (presumed) assumptions, for example, the man used to take sleeping pills, he seemed mentally ill for a long time, he may have hit his head somewhere before he went to bed in order to commit suicide… Let us for the sake of common sense name these assumptions (you and Rockford have) “worldviews” to save a lot of words. Up until now you denied them, and like SteveG you denied – you may allow for such a succinct analysis of mine – you denied there is anything apart from science. Finally, you “played along”.
Great. Out it came! Alert readers! Did you hear him? Erasmus, do you feel better now I assume. Why are you bitter about it? Don’t you assume that we Christians are wrong? (By the way, when Kojak came and looked at the person for a second he decided also to investigate something: namely he goes to the man on the bed and slaps him in the face. Surprise, the man wakes up – in the last minute. If Kojak hadn’t slapped him in the face he would have died. Well you hate Kojak for you still owe him an explanation where you got your stuff from in your wardrobe – but please, thank him for once that your relative is alive!)
>You simply presume, out of nowhere,
- you forget the book, the bibble as you said -
> the notion that one can bundle up all sorts of ontological presuppositions and call them a ‘worldview’ (…).
You lacked that word so far in your vocabulary and I’m glad you wrote it down now. I tell you the word is of some importance, especially if you decided to play with them (dangerous games when Kojak has an eye on you already!) and not just to play along with them.
You have proven yourself to be inconsistent. But slowly you seem to make some progress.
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ED
Oh, so we can bundle up any set of unrelated abstract things and give them a name and now they have their own ontology. Pardon me if I balk at such nonsense.
Your example is not a function of ‘worldview’ but of experience. Assumptions that are borne from experience. This is the linchpin that Saul denies, he denies that we may not use our experience of what happened yesterday, and the day before, and the day before that, because it could all be a big dream cooked up by your sky daddy, or some other such nonsense. Safe to say that every single living thing on earth does not behave this way, including Saul. So this argument has no merit.
So ‘worldview’ to you means whatever you need to mean in any context. bundles of presuppositions? same internal relation as the set of a toy truck, cat hair, book of japanese-arabic translation, some black mud, a song and Fermi’s last theorem. In other words, nothing, until someone like you comes along and reifies the lot and claims god did it.
now, i’m not sure where you got the business about me saying right and wrong don’t exist, and i’m even more sure that you dont even know what you mean by ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ but if pressed I’d bet that you heard someone else say it, probably someone as equally clueless about the solipcist pit that you have fallen into as yourself.
Where in the bibble does it say that one can bundle up all sorts of ontological presuppositions and call them a worldview, again? I missed that part. Please do tell.
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PS if you wish I am sure that we can play tu quoque all day. That is essentially what the worldview business boils down to.
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Hi Erasmus!
As you use the word “worldview” more frequently you seem to be quite familiar with it. Fine. Personally, I find it much easier to use that word instead of “bundles of presuppositions”. Actually, I grant to you that “worldview” isn’t defined in a strict sense and can once be seen as experience or “whatever you need to mean in any context”. Well I could go along with “bundles of presuppostions”, too – if it was just that. “Worldview” means less typing (time is money) on the one hand and additionally, it suggests that one’s bundles of presuppositions aren’t somewhat hanging loosely in the air, but are rooted to an invisible system everyone has set up in his mind. I remember when ASaltyDog asked SteveG an interesting question in the very end of #100. Every person doesn’t start assuming things out of the blue, arbitrarily, for instance how did the person end up in that bed in the hotel room (#449) but on something, like a detail as the bottle of pills. It would simply be a lie if we said that we make decisions in life for no reason. If it were so that we made decisions for no reason we weren’t to be held responsible for snatching up little children and smashing their heads against the stones. Thus, worldview is something on what you and I – knowingly or not – base our behavior, our next steps in life, our presuppositions, or future expectations about “life after death” or the like.
So far, I think I didn’t yet claim God did anything. It is you who claims God doesn’t exist and it is me who claims the opposite. Based on what is your claim?
By the way, when it comes to “worldviews” in the Bible: If the word itself isn’t mentioned in the Bible it doesn’t yet prove anything. If we look a bit closer the concept of worldview is there. And the content of the Bible makes clear and obvious that there are two clearly separated wordlviews: the one without the acceptance of God (the God of the Bible) or the one with God. Maybe you could have a look at Romans chapter 1 (starting with verse 18) and 2, just as a quick example.
The Bible makes clear even more than that. We inescapebly choose either the one or the other worldview. And whatever we choose — this is the god we serve. Thus, also an atheist worships a god, namely that person worships the non-god if you will. So we either replace the true God with another god or we do worship Him. Based on that we can see the fruits.
About “right” and “wrong”: You asked (in #418) whether I could demonstrate that “yes” or “no” objectively existed. You sounded uncertain then when you asked that question.
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And the content of the Bible makes clear and obvious that there are two clearly separated wordlviews: the one without the acceptance of God (the God of the Bible) or the one with God.
what you and your sodium-enhanced colleague consistently fail (refuse) to understand is that there are NOT just two options, because the God of the Bible is not the only possible idea of God.
It is true that one believes in “the God of the Bible” or not; it is NOT true that being without that particular idea of God is the same as “without God.”
You and the Canine have not offered one bit of reason to believe that the Bible depicts God accurately, and do not appear to even understand the need to.
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I have read a lot of puffed up stuff in my life. Pontificating to hear (read) oneself speak.
If the following is not true, then I’m doomed and so are those who call themselves Christians.
John 1:1-5 (NASB-U)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. [4] In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. [5] The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Don’t be puffed up:
Matthew 23:12 (NASB-U)
“Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
This thread reminds me of all of Christ’s Woes of Matthew 23. I especially like the gnat/camel description.
Matthew 23:23-24 (NASB-U)
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. [24] “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
My God is Sovereign, He does as he pleases, we can try and deny Him, however that does not change the fact that He is God and there is none like Him. Pray He changes your heart and you too can be one of the Chosen.
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SteveG (#454): “what you and your sodium-enhanced colleague consistently fail (refuse) to understand is that there are NOT just two options, because the God of the Bible is not the only possible idea of God.”
I don’t think that I fail or refuse to see that there are more options. There are, to be sure, endlessly many options. Woody Allen is good at searching for the right one in his movies. On a serious level though, there are ULTIMATELY only two options, the ones I mentioned in my previous post. This is what God revealed through Scriptures.
That is what the Bible explicitly teaches from beginning to end. And there is enmity between these two options (first mentioned in Gen 3:15). Crucial in this is the cornerstone, Jesus Christ and your relation to Him.
SteveG: “You (…) have not offered one bit of reason to believe that the Bible depicts God accurately, and do not appear to even understand the need to.”
First of all, be assured: I was sitting in the same boat as you are sitting at the moment. I didn’t believe in the God of the Bible at all. I mocked at the bibble – and felt pretty good about it. And to be sure, nobody else believes by default: “No-one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again” (John 3:3). We all fall short of comprehending the meaning of two ultimately different options. The concept of rebirth requires something done by God first: “No-one can come to me [= Jesus] unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:44) So banging one’s head against a wall doesn’t really help in order to understand the Bible quotes. I used to be – perhaps for different reasons – in your camp (with an infinite number of different options, except for the One) and therefore, I understand your concern or your reservedness about the biblical teaching totally. There is no other way than mocking. Or: God gave you another chance.
This is why Paul wrote: “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (I. Cor 1:18) Now, I can tell you that I am a witness of that power, because I – strange enough – believe this foolishness now. Even more: I realize that the various concepts other options over (including evolutional theory) are fake and ultimately, destroy meaning.
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A correcting note: I realize that the various concepts other options OFFER (not: over) (including evolutional theory) are fake and ultimately, destroy meaning.
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I don’t think that I fail or refuse to see that there are more options. There are, to be sure, endlessly many options. Woody Allen is good at searching for the right one in his movies. On a serious level though, there are ULTIMATELY only two options, the ones I mentioned in my previous post. This is what God revealed through Scriptures.
You might as well say: There are ULTIMATELY only two options: Submission to the will of Allah, or unbelief. This is what Allah revealed to Mohammed direct from heaven.
You continue to offer the Bible’s existence as evidence of the Bible’s truth.
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Happy Valentine’s Day, Steve.
Yes, I might as well say “Submission to the will of Allah, or unbelief.” But this statement then wouldn’t be in accordance with Scripture.
We possibly write posts here to either convince the other one – a mission impossible – or to debunk him if his thinking is flawed or offers an easy target for hitting hard. The Bible seemed to offer only weak sides. And I hit. I was sure it is internally inconsistent, it’s wrong, it’s a joke, it’s illogical… Now I hold my breath as I noticed it stands my hits easily, it stands anybody’s hits. The content of the Bible is a pearl. So in awe I understand the depth of this: “The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.” (Matthew 13:45-46)
In other words, by no means would I want to give this special pearl away. It is the one that has the greatest value.
We may be tempted to say that the merchant was a fanatic, a fundamentalist, an idiot. But what would the happy merchant say? He would be wondering why we don’t start getting our pearls out of the ground.
I personally think it isn’t possible to provide ultimately convincing evidence that the Bible is true, but at the same time it isn’t possible to provide evidence that anything else (atheism, …) was true. This is the dilemma. It is through faith that we see the truth. “We live by faith, not by sight.” (II Cor 5:7) That is a sentence that incidentally applies to the “right” worldview as well as to all “wrong” ones. But there is one truely deep difference between the “right” one and all the “wrong” ones. We can’t believe what we thought is foolishness (in Paul’s words). We would never ever choose faith into that “one” worldview. We would prefer eating shit or anything else in this world to escape from that foolishness.
We don’t need to be tortured until we couldn’t resist any longer. We freely choose. I look up to Abraham. How could I choose something I didn’t have on the menu list before? John 6:44 has the answer. And I get goose bumps.
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blah blah blah false dichotomy, cognitive dissonance, compartmentalization, begging the question.
ED I am much less than certain that you can provide any evidence for the existence of absolute and right and wrong, you are correct. here is a hint: my doubt lies in your ability to demonstrate such a thing, not in my opinion of the probability of the answer.
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STEVEG at #444:
___
ASALTYDOG at #436: He explicitly promises uniformity of nature after the Flood is over, thereby implicitly telling us that the Flood was something you cannot consistently investigate down to the smallest detail by considering the way the world operates now.
STEVEG at #444: Which is just your longwinded way of saying what I predicted you’d say in #427.
ASALTYDOG: In #427 you wrote: “We could show you all these and a hundred other points of physical evidence against the possibility of a global flood, and the only assumption required would be that reality is real. But you would wave you had [sic] and declare that God did it”. This is a lie. The other assumption required would be that the biblical teaching about how God controls nature is false. You are arguing in a circle. You are saying: “If God doesn’t control nature and didn’t cause the Flood as the Bible says, then we could show you all these and a hundred other points of physical evidence against the possibility of a global flood. If the Bible is in error, I can show you that the Bible is in error.” You want to do an internal critique of Christianity, but you forget that’s what you are doing twenty seconds after you start. You have the attention span of moss. You want to show that the biblical account is false, you gather a number of details from the biblical story, but you conveniently leave out just one small biblical detail: God. That’s pretty unforgivable, I say. As soon as I tell you that your objection is nonsensical because you are criticizing the Christian position, you incredibly complain that I am being consistent, and that of course if I bring God into the picture it’s impossible to prove me wrong. Well, thanks a lot, but with that you concede the debate, my friend. Please notice very well that contrary to what you seem to think I am not using “God” as an arbitrary wild card I conveniently draw whenever I don’t know what to answer. I don’t wave hands. I am not making things up as I go along. I have carefully explained the Christian position and the role of God as Creator and Sustainer of nature in #436 (and elsewhere). I can easily show how everything I said is taught in the Bible. I see no evidence you understand what I am saying. I see no evidence you understand whom you are debating. I see no evidence you understand how to carry on a debate.
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STEVEG: This is, in fact, the heart of all of your claims of fact — you believe your book that it happened the way it’s written, but lo and behold, belief in the book is the only evidence because God in his wise sovereignty erased all other traces.
ASALTYDOG: Only evidence? Erased all other traces? Steve, please quit forcing words into my mouth. I am partying, I am not hungry. Twisting other people’s positions may sound attractive when you don’t have a basis for saying it’s ethically wrong, but I won’t let you do it with me. Lose honorably, at least.
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STEVEG: So fine .. no debate is possible then because you define away all possible objective and external tools.
ASALTYDOG: More whining from the loser. You tried a truly impossible feat, and you complain it’s my fault? You are like a man who sets out to prove that one plus one doesn’t equal two, and who ends up complaining that all numbers are already conveniently “defined away” so as to make his task impossible. “Define away all possible objective and external tools”? Tell me, what objective or external tool do you want? Do you want me to pretend the Triune God doesn’t exist so it would be easier for you to prove that He doesn’t? You are crazy. I have stepped into your position and showed how it’s self-defeating. Your reaction was to grab your hat and run away toward the forest. I told you then to step into my position, and see if my position makes internal sense. So you stepped into my position, and now you complain that it does make internal sense. Ha! Therefore, the debate is over.
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ASALTYDOG at #436: Instead, the matter is solved by inquiring which party independently provides the prerequisites for having logic, science, and ethics at all. In these posts I have argued that your worldview loses the battle with Christianity at this crucial point.
STEVEG: And you’ve been wrong about that every time you’ve said it, which hasn’t stopped you from quoting Eagles lyrics and declaring victory.
ASALTYDOG: It hasn’t stopped me because I haven’t heard any explanation from you as to why I’ve been supposedly wrong. Whenever I have countered your objections, you dropped the topic in no time, taking however the liberty to restate later the same objections as if I had not already replied. You have had plenty of time, but you have wasted it in whining, in misrepresenting me, in changing the subject, and in running away from me. I ran after you with my dogs to snatch explanations and answers from you, but you refused to give them. I know you love me, Steve, but I can’t stay here forever for your entertainment. I sinked the canoe with which you were crusading against creationism, with my very first torpedo. Check it up. You never recovered. You immediately raised up your hands in the air, admitted defeat, but complained that I was taking the war way too seriously. So I tried to amuse you with some jokes illustrating your foolish war campaign, but you didn’t like that either. After about 400 messages you are still floating aimlessly in the water, with no land in sight, and you are still crying that it’s not fair. I told you to jump onto my ship, but you refuse to do so. And if I sail my ship toward the horizon, toward less boring adventures, you swim after me and shout that it ain’t over yet. I point out that I sinked your canoe, and you say that’s not true. I ask you to sail your canoe then, and you pretend you don’t understand what I’m saying. I tell you you’re playing dumb, and you yell my ship sucks. I show you that my ship is perfectly sea-worthy, and you complain, “Yeah, of course, because it’s built in such a way that it won’t sink.” This kind of unintentionally hilarious irrationality from you is currently the butt of every joke at our party over here.
She says “All right now, go ahead, draw me, I’m standing right here”
I make a few lines, and I show it for her to see
Well she takes the napkin and throws it back
And says “That don’t look a thing like me”
I said, “Oh, kind miss, it most certainly does”
She says, “You must be jokin’.” I say, “I wish I was.”
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STEVEG: Again, no debate is possible, because rather than try to actually engage another point of view, you think you somehow score points by being gleefully loony.
ASALTYDOG: Not true, that’s not what I think. Instead I am currently thinking how come “Erasmus and SteveG” is the anagram of “Must serve agendas”. And “Assert vague mends”. And “Danger: Mess! Use a TV.” “Rather than try to actually engage another point of view”? Steve, you are currently being carried by the waves, and you are all wet. I sinked your point of view. If you think I haven’t, explain to me why misrepresenting your neighbor’s views, stealing his hammer, and lying about it, is a bad thing. And this time there’s no forest where you can run to and hide, because you’re trapped in an open sea metaphor. I don’t score points because I’m being gleefully loony: I can afford being gleefully loony because I have scored points.
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ASALTYDOG at #432: I appreciate the fact that your position is magnanimously willing to allow the Triune God to exist, but if your position wants to be called Christian instead of pagan or cultic it needs to get one thing straight.
STEVEG: My position, fortunately for me, doesn’t really care what you call it, having lost all confidence in your ability to debate in good faith, or rationally, a few thousand words ago.
ASALTYDOG: So you mean we should debate rationally? Why? What’s bad about refusing to debate in good faith?
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STEVEG at #453 (to Mr. Ott): what you and your sodium-enhanced colleague [ASaltyDog] consistently fail (refuse) to understand is that there are NOT just two options, because the God of the Bible is not the only possible idea of God. It is true that one believes in “the God of the Bible” or not; it is NOT true that being without that particular idea of God is the same as “without God.” You and the Canine [ASaltyDog] have not offered one bit of reason to believe that the Bible depicts God accurately, and do not appear to even understand the need to.
ASALTYDOG: Steve, sit down for a moment. Switch off the TV. Take a cup of coffee. I’m serious. Try to be awake and try to pay attention here. If the Bible does not depict God accurately, you wouldn’t be able to know it. First, according to whom “it is NOT true that being without that particular idea of God is the same as “without God.” “? Certainly not according Christianity. The Christian faith is monotheistic. The Christian position on this particular issue was explicitly fixed by St. Paul, who said that to be a pagan without Christ is to be without God (”atheos”) in this world. So your claim that “it is NOT true…” begs the question. It is not an agreed-upon common ground. It is not a neutral ground either. There is no neutrality. You are reasoning from some position. And you are not doing an internal critique of Christianity either: you are reasoning from a perspective that contradicts Christianity. Christianity does grant the existence of other gods besides the True God, but only as false gods, or idols: entities which are falsely claimed to be divine, but which in reality are not. Secondly, Steve, by taking refuge in the variety of religious experience you seem to concede that as an internally consistent position which does provide the preconditions for the intelligibility of human experience, faith in the Triune God of the Bible does fit the bill. This is something you have grudgingly admitted by way of complaining about it also elsewhere. You also seem to implicitly agree that atheistic evolutionism is disqualified. Am I reading you correctly? By conceding this you already grant that in order to preserve your rationality you need to take refuge in some form of theism, which is indeed consistent with your claim that you are in fact a theist. However you have been consistently unable to show that your particular form of theism fits the bill. You claim here that in order to preserve your rationality there may be other options besides Christianity. However you have not mentioned any specific viable alternative to Christianity, whether theistic or not. I suppose that if you had one specific viable alternative in mind, you would have already abandoned your current impotent theistic position and embraced the other, viable one. But you have not done that, which strongly suggests you don’t know a specific viable alternative to Christianity. If you protest that you know an alternative, why are still a deist? So the only alternative to Christianity for you today is that, for the time being, you renounce rationality and ethics. Why do you reject Christianity today then? It appears you grant the workability of Christanity, but you refuse to embrace it (in order to preserve your rationality) only because of a baffling hope that somewhere, somehow, there may be another position that also fits the bill. Even if this were a rational hope, which it is not, it is still irrational for you to refuse to accept Christianity today. You would rather remain without a foundation for your rationality than accepting the foundation which is being offered to you, which you agree would fit the bill. Why would you do that? That’s as foolish as it gets. You are basically saying, “I would rather be irrational than be a Christian! Better be irrational in the hope that some other Messiah will come to save me, than be saved by Jesus Christ!” Okay, but then let nobody here say that it is Christians who are crazy. If the only way you can save the Theory of Evolution is by admitting you are insane, be my guest! It does appear a slightly excessive price to pay to me, but that’s just my rational estimation. But even your hope for a future Messiah is irrational. You see, the biblical position is intrinsically exclusivistic. Its viability and its self-consistency (which you grant) are inescapably based on its notorious drastic exclusivity with respect to other religions and worldviews. So if the biblical position fits the bill, it is the only position that fits the bill. Otherwise it wouldn’t fit the bill.
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ERASMUS at #443: the thing you have Christian this is i have, one of how question of things means you own isn’t it, you do ontological you have added thing account. consistency, i.e. noted, is not your deny your first virtue unto the scripture. naughty, the very it tells that the Church started in the Garden of Eden”you not to do. like the called into litany lying. yet you
ASALTYDOG: [ CLICK ] [Switches on Christian assumptions about reality]
ERASMUS: Chewbacca… Saul…
ASALTYDOG: You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy, you may call me anything, but no matter what you say you’re gonna have to serve somebody.
ERASMUS: You are quite incapable of defending your ontology, so you replace that defense with silly.
ASALTYDOG: Sorry, wrong number. This is ASaltyDog. I already answered that nonsense. And I’m not buying anything.
ERASMUS: You could have your own blog. It’d go something like this I say “You cannot show that revelation yields knowledge” and you go “You are a thief, my dogs, in a castle, on a donkey, in the ballroom with a candlestick, I win”. And it would be great. As it is, great not so much. Just worn out bankrupt a priori presuppositionalism. You are the one true scotsman, clearly. I suspect you have probably been accused of ‘notpology’ before. It would indeed be par for the course.
ASALTYDOG: Whatever. I have no idea what you are talking about, or to whom. All lies and jest — still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
ERASMUS: christianity: being like or following christ, right? by definition it could not have begun before your christ. Saul you are willing to lie for your jesus so much that you will redefine simple words instead of admitting that you are wrong. . . . “we all affirm the thing you have called into question, i.e. that the Christian Church started in the Garden of Eden” this is one of the litany of things you have added unto the scripture. naughty, isn’t it, how you do the very thing it tells you not to do. like lying. yet you justify it with what? your castle, and a donkey?
ASALTYDOG: You talkin’ to me? Can’t be. I didn’t add, I didn’t lie. And do you mean lying is bad? How come? Before Abraham was, Christ is. In fact, rumors of a B.C. age have been greatly exaggerated. The Bible is clear: plenty of people following Christ in B.C. times. Many Neanderthal grannies were busy warning their grandchildren about the ancient strange beliefs of the Christ-following crowd. That didn’t prevent the extinction of her race, though — in fact, for all I know that may have hastened it. Sounds eerily like this debate, too, when you think about it.
ERASMUS: If you need the Triune God to keep from having sex with mallard ducks or from stealing from beggars, by all means. I wouldn’t want you to relapse. But it is question begging foolishness to claim that this is coherent.
ASALTYDOG: Oh, I definitely do need the Triune God to keep me from that, yes, and so do you. There but for the grace of God go I. I need Him for breathing and for keeping together my protons so they won’t fall off my ears, let alone for keeping me from sin. So it’s “question begging foolishness to claim that this is coherent”? It is? How so? Where’s the argument? Before you even begin, where’s the basis for the argument? And once again you cowardly ignore the question I actually asked, and try to distract and sidetrack readers. Well, I guess that’s because an honest and honorable man’s gotta do what a honest and honorable man’s gotta do. For your convenience, I’ll repeat the question: Given your position, what’s the difference between those activities and a day at the beach?
ERASMUS: Again, you claim an ontological prior that you simply cannot provide any evidence for whatsoever.
ASALTYDOG: I tell you, you have got the wrong guy. I can provide and I did provide, and this is an objection I already answered, so I can’t be the guy you’re talking to. And quit calling me Agane.
ERASMUS: It sure is funny, O Deceiver, how I manage to find my way to work every morning, isn’t it. yet I do.
ASALTYDOG: From reading your posts, believe me, I would have never guessed. It’s got to be your donkey, though. And how this is supposed to worry me is something I can’t imagine right now. More evidence you must be talking to the wrong guy.
ERASMUS: If everything is the will of god, O pretender to knowledge, then you are dividing by one. You have reified experience and made it a prediction of your god, when there is no reason to suppose that.
ASALTYDOG: Then show that your nose exists. Show what’s wrong with stealing from beggars. Show on what grounds you expect the key to fall next time you drop it. Should be easy. Should you need help, try calling all the king’s horses and all the king’s men. My own calculation is pretty simple and obvious, yes. That does not prove it’s false. On the contrary, it shows my argument has been irrefutable and devastating. It shows you have no excuse, just as surely as one divided by one is one. But you are envious as Hell that it all works through simple, childish faith in the Bible.
ERASMUS: In fact, since according to you watches fall upward according to gods will you deny even experience, which ultimately means you deny your own ontological account. consistency, i have noted, is not your first virtue.
ASALTYDOG: No. I don’t deny experience. Never did, never will. You’re talking about someone else.
ERASMUS: and what it boils to is that if the bible said two plus two = five, you would claim this was necessarily true.
ASALTYDOG: That is, if Christianity were different from what it is, I wouldn’t have won the debate. Good point.
ERASMUS: hint: there are such statements in the bible.
ASALTYDOG: Hint: show first why two plus two shouldn’t make five.
ERASMUS: I will admit that I find your compartmentalization and doublethink more intellectually honest than apologists. You have said ’screw the facts, we have our facts and you have your facts’. That sort of reality-denial is impressive, if not admirable.
ASALTYDOG: You talkin’ to me? Wrong guy again. Never said “screw the facts”, never will. Never said “we have our facts and you have your facts”. Over my dead body. I am the guy who says we have all the facts. I am the guy who says you are the parasite who can’t make head or tail of the facts without stealing my assumptions about reality. Chewbacca, eh? If the Theory of Evolution were true, there would be no way to distinguish between the Theory of Evolution and a Chewbacca defense. You lecture me about intellectual honesty while misinterpreting me in the same breath. Since you seem to know a lot about it, what’s bad about being intellectually dishonest? And since you consistently call my number but talk to people I don’t know about things I didn’t say, I conclude that you are either a liar, or you are insane, or you are a bored teenager with way too much free time. Or all the above. In other words, you say you love me, but I am not persuaded.
ERASMUS: I think I’ll hang out with your party. I was always curious what the really cool kids were doing. I may never know, but you can serve as a proxy.
ASALTYDOG: The really cool kids are sitting in the porch having a beer, and they’re playing Before You Accuse Me real slow. In the meanwhile, helpless and clueless, the other kids watch in disbelief how their dear position has gone belly-up, with the tongue sticking out of the side of the mouth. They feel an irresistible urge to publicly embarrass themselves again. And they will.
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I tell you you’re playing dumb, and you yell my ship sucks. I show you that my ship is perfectly sea-worthy, and you complain, “Yeah, of course, because it’s built in such a way that it won’t sink.”
More accurately: You claim your ship is perfectly sea-worthy, and when I ask you how come, then, it’s sitting on the bottom of the ocean, you say, “What? Of course it isn’t! I’m standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona!”
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Reality: “If you need the Triune God to keep from having sex with mallard ducks or from stealing from beggars, by all means”
Chewbacca: Oh, I definitely do need the Triune God to keep me from that…
Fair enough. About time you started being honest.
Chewbacca: I need Him for breathing and for keeping together my protons so they won’t fall off my ears, let alone for keeping me from sin…
Reality: How so? How does god keep your protons from falling off your ears (do you know what protons are?)? What is this ’sin’ you ramble about?
Chewbacca: ” I can provide and I did provide”
Reality: Where? All you said was Duh Bibble this and that, which is, as a wiser man than your moses once said, riding the oxen in search of the oxen.
Chewbacca:”it shows my argument has been irrefutable and devastating. It shows you have no excuse, just as surely as one divided by one is one. But you are envious as Hell that it all works through simple, childish faith in the Bible.”
reality: just as devastating as the beggar on the street who tells me he is napoleon. you have the same epistemology. i am envious in the same way that i am envious of raspberry vines, and how they sleep in winter.
Chewbacca:”Hint: show first why two plus two shouldn’t make five.”
reality: It does, if you define math in such a way. Which you have. congratulations on your victory. It’s a lot like pooping in your pants to prove you could do it. someone has to clean the mess up.
Chewbacca: “If the Theory of Evolution were true, there would be no way to distinguish between the Theory of Evolution and a Chewbacca defense”
reality: and nothing more but baseless assertion after baseless assertion.
the baseless assertion that your gawd promised a consistency of nature after the flood is flatly contradicted by the rest of your old testament. Job. david. blah. it doesn’t matter, you are not interested in consistency. just gawd dunned it, i buhleave it and that settles it. hic. fortunately, I love that stuff. some people watch Flavor Of Love, I watch tard.
but you’re keeping this thread going and that is one thing you have going for you. idiocy is immortal.
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The thesis of Dog/Ott is simply that “Without the God of the Bible, there is no absolute basis for reality.” It is a cousin of the “Without the God of the Bible, there is no absolute basis for morality.”
Both arguments fail because they assume there must be such an absolute basis. But what if there isn’t? What if we can only be sure of reality to a 99.9999 percent certainty instead of 100 percent? What if the only basis for morality is what works for a society at a given point in time?
Dog/Ott bases his presupposition on an assumption and imagines it proven.
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steve the more interesting part, to me, is how this person can claim that all ontologies are based on such assumptions, therefore no ontology is any different than any other. yet turn around and out of the other side of the mouth claim a prior for the bibble (stupidly oblivious to the obvious fact that their assumptions are predicated on an interpretation of the bibble that is predicated on their a priori assumption).
Black Knight, Monty Python. they’ll bleed on you, to death.
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It’s only a flesh wound!
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A few things:
I am not ASaltyDog who by the way already (#366) said that he is not E.D. Ott. And E.D. Ott sits here in front of the screen – alone. Believe me.
You (plural form) seem to read so superficially that it is hurting. Hopefully, you are different when it comes to reading sciencific things or doing research. Additionally, you, Erasmus, show us in detail your learned way of quoting. To be precise, I am speaking about your poor quotation in #462 of Chewbacca. If you wanted to only be funny – fine: it was funny. It is always funny to make jokes about others. I think, you are lacking a certain sense of decency, though. Personally, I prefer making jokes about oneself over going below the belt. But I fear that this is the way you guys read inexactly both, the posts on this thread and other scientific works. Can I assume this is the level you both reach if you don’t have anything anymore to add – to keep the fire going in ASaltyDog’s fireplace?
You haven’t provided anything yet, both of you. You have raised a few subjects, you have accused, you have made fun of people and our worldview, you have asked questions you don’t have answers to. But when you are asked, you are silent. Guys, I think all of us realize now that you ran out of arguments.
I’m perfectly fine with coming to an end of a discussion which at most caused some friction. Hardly ever people change their minds on blogs. But it is sad to see that how childish people can become when they don’t get it their way.
It is never about our way! Believe me, once again.
That is exactly the point where the “one” worldview differs from all the “others”. In the “one” other, now known to everybody in this thread, it is about God, Creator, Sustainer and Redeemer. Yes, you may call it the famous “leap of faith”. Yet, you guys who do not believe, take an even more gigantic leap of faith into so-called science. I love science. But I am – pardon the strong word – disgusted about blind people claiming they can see everything. But they can’t even see their own nose. Should we ask Gogol?
When it comes to this famous hotel room with the dead body, as we think, on the bed we all make a leap of faith. Some people think he was hit by the hammer, some others may think he took the pills. We don’t know. Period. We need to analyse the case then, but we can’t do it leaving our worldviews (here: assumptions) aside. We are honest and admit, we haven’t been to the hotel room when it happened. You instead offer a murderer even though you can’t account for logic. Kojak is still knocking on your door, guys. Soon you’ll be also accused for civil disorder. And if things continue this way you will have to come up with a good alibi for the day Kennedy was shot.
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E.D. Ott at #466:
I am not ASaltyDog who by the way already (#366) said that he is not E.D. Ott. And E.D. Ott sits here in front of the screen – alone. Believe me.
Having no way to prove otherwise I’ll take your word for that. I have suspected you are the same person because: (1) You are espousing the same position; (2) You have very similar writing styles, right down to the penchant for longwindedness, loopy humor and bizarre-but-cogent analogies; and (3) You, Ott, arrived on the scene just when the Dog was in dire need of some backup.
But if you’re not, then that’s cool.
You (plural form) seem to read so superficially that it is hurting. Hopefully, you are different when it comes to reading sciencific things or doing research. … But I fear that this is the way you guys read inexactly both, the posts on this thread and other scientific works. Can I assume this is the level you both reach if you don’t have anything anymore to add – to keep the fire going in ASaltyDog’s fireplace?
I think Erasmus and I both read carefully and answered appropriately early on. As the thread has turned into being basically the same set of arguments made over and over, and we’ve not made a dent in the impervious wall of denial, it’s become less worthwhile to take the time.
You haven’t provided anything yet, both of you.
Not so. We’ve both made cases for why we believe our approaches to be more in accord with the real world than yours. You and/or Dog have simply dismissed them. Your refusal to consider other ideas is not the same as us not offering them and is, in fact, just the latest in the series of attempts to deny they even exist.
You have raised a few subjects, you have accused, you have made fun of people and our worldview, you have asked questions you don’t have answers to. But when you are asked, you are silent. Guys, I think all of us realize now that you ran out of arguments.
Yes, after having made them a few times to have them ignored.
You and/or Dog ran out of arguments after your first posts. Since then you’ve just been saying the same things, over and over and over … and over.
I’m perfectly fine with coming to an end of a discussion which at most caused some friction. Hardly ever people change their minds on blogs. But it is sad to see that how childish people can become when they don’t get it their way.
You mean like when your buddy Dog rambles on about his dogs pursuing, or answers Erasmus with a series of weird, non-responsive non-sequiturs, or quotes pop songs in lieu of making a point? I agree.
That is exactly the point where the “one” worldview differs from all the “others”. In the “one” other, now known to everybody in this thread, it is about God, Creator, Sustainer and Redeemer. Yes, you may call it the famous “leap of faith”. Yet, you guys who do not believe, take an even more gigantic leap of faith into so-called science.
If you understood anything we’ve said (as opposed to pretending we didn’t say anything) you’d know why you’re incorrect here.
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ED I’d be tickled to death if you could tell me why the majority of christians do not accept this ontological account. If I had to guess I’m sure that it would involve some sort of scotsman.
you say i am not reading critically, but i don’t see how you can support this. i am very very very aware of the structure of this argument, and i am very very very aware that it is as completely baseless as it claims any other argument to be. in short, it blinds peter to blindfold paul.
But I am impressed at the ferocity with which The Argument Regarding Design is rendered. It is after all a rhetorical trick based on a logical fallacy, and to see it ardently defended is truly something. Not sure what, but it is something.
And no I agree with you that this debate is likely going nowhere, as neither you nor Saul can come to grips with the fallacies inherent to the ‘worldview’ issue. Experience is the key, even in your example. We know there are murderers because we know of murders. We know what hammers do to flesh, we know what pills do to liver and blood. These are matters settled by empiricism, not empty fluff ontological rhetoric calculated solely to save the noumena you desire.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23164659/
New dinosaur discoveries. New ones every day. Oh how the magical creationists wish they could stop new knowledge.
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RDean (#469): Christianity in no way contradicts science. It is today’s science that wants to contradict Christianity. Or at least, if you disagree, the coin has to sides. You see one side, I see the other. This doesn’t prove your statement right, nor does it prove mine wrong. This thread was also about more than about pieces of “evidence” here or there.
Why should a new dinosaur discovery prove creationists wrong? I fail to see your point. Why is there life after all on this planet?
It is this hotel room — now soon turning infamous. There is a body and we haven’t been present when something was done to that person. We need to investigate. To be sure, we can’t do that without some assumptions in order to start analysing. It is, after all, always the assumptions that keep us going in some direction. Is there some kind of agreement on your side?
Actually, there was a hotel room in Geneva where a German politician was found dead in 1987. He was found in the bathroom. Like in Twin Peaks the story got gloomier and gloomier the more details were found. Today they have got three different versions which each doesn’t allow for the others. Now did that man die three times differently? I don’t ask you in order to uncover the mystery in this case with you. By the way, none of the three different versions can account for the disappearance of a bottle of red wine.
You, now I am also talking to Erasmus and SteveG, too, can come up with thousands of different versions. Your theory looks good and superficially answers to a lot of questions. (So does Buddhism also.) Now when you are asked where the bottle of red wine is – you have no idea. Yet, it is a crucial element in that story. When we are to make conclusions about things we don’t know, because we don’t have a witness, we can still proceed. But it gets fishy at some point. Very fishy. You have to leave out the bottle the more you investigate. Okay, go ahead! Don’t turn to Christians and blame us for that. Because we can account for it. But by blaming us you still can’t account for that bottle, metaphorically speaking. You can’t account for your position either.
That is what I mean by Kierkegaard’s bad way of calling it “a leap of faith” as if it applied only to Christians. As we realize the key of understanding the hotel room mystery is this silly bottle, we all need to make this “leap”. Now, two people doing the same thing is never the same. The “leap” you are doing in the name of science is to abandon the existence of that bottle. And then everything else falls into place. Seems to. A few idiots keep telling you that you did wrong but the bulk gives you applause. I also liked your idea. Until I started to like red wine… (What are you drinking, guys?)
Erasmus also mentions bulks (#468): “ED I’d be tickled to death if you could tell me why the majority of christians do not accept this ontological account. If I had to guess I’m sure that it would involve some sort of scotsman.”
May I assume you don’t know the answer? May I further assume that you really want me to help you? I am not sure what you mean “Scotsman”, though. I am happy you see this contradiction in Christianity. They all call themselves “Christians”. I think Christianity is more than calling himself or being labelled a “Christian”. Ultimately, only God can see at our hearts (I Samuel 16:7) and thus, He knows who is a – “true Christian”, as I read nowadays everywhere. Vice versa, scientific researchers attacking you on some level about evolution or disagreeing heavily, does this already prove evolution wrong, or doesn’t it?
Now evolutional theory may be made up by counting noses. That is not the case with Christianity. Some people are consistent about the Word of God, others aren’t. The Bible teaches for example that – apart from Jesus — nobody can be “infallible”. But the Pope seems to be by definition. Now does that prove the Bible wrong or does it display a poor reading of the Bible? On the issue of “infallibleness” of people, I think, the Catholics are wrong. But sure enough, you see my opinion is based on that book, and the Pope’s position is not based on that same book.
But your question was “why”. It is, as you see, about this stupid book. They all claim to have read it. But reading and taking it seriously are two different issues. Why do people lie? You’re the expert on this issue as you called somebody here “a liar”. Now, how would you answer your own question, Erasmus?
Erasmus (still #468): “you say i am not reading critically, but i don’t see how you can support this. i am very very very aware of the structure of this argument, and i am very very very aware that it is as completely baseless as it claims any other argument to be. in short, it blinds peter to blindfold paul.”
I am very very very very very sorry for that. Really really really sorry. Yet, on what basis is my position baseless? And by the way, I didn’t say that you weren’t reading critically. Don’t presuppose something into my words I haven’t even written. That is just another weak point of yours. What did you do on November 23rd 1963?
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Hi Steve,
I am flattered by your words, loopy humour and so on. Thank you. That was nice.
Thank you also for taking my word. I have been reading your posts on this thread and as a person I really like you. You don’t take out the knife in order to have things your way violently. I think, you really are a gentleman looking for good arguments written here.
(I had written, #466): “You haven’t provided anything yet, both of you.”
You (#467): “Not so. We’ve both made cases for why we believe our approaches to be more in accord with the real world than yours. You and/or Dog have simply dismissed them.”
Is that another compliment? Yes, we dismissed them. The serious question is on what grounds we dismiss them. I feel horribly guilty of spoiling your day. Yet, we should be more or less in accord with the real word – but in accord!
(You #467): “Your refusal to consider other ideas is not the same as us not offering them and is, in fact, just the latest in the series of attempts to deny they even exist.”
I don’t want to sound like children sound when they play football outside and have a disagreement. Yet, isn’t it you who refuses the necessity of intelligibility? Isn’t it you who refuses logic and ethic – for the sake of a neat theory?
Now that’s the one issue I really hold dear. Because I want you to have science. And yet, I don’t want you to come up with ideas Hitler developed on a human race. Scientifically, I think, you couldn’t beat his arguments. Or do you silently side with that guy?
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E.D. at #471:
(I had written, #466): “You haven’t provided anything yet, both of you.”
You (#467): “Not so. We’ve both made cases for why we believe our approaches to be more in accord with the real world than yours. You and/or Dog have simply dismissed them.”
Is that another compliment? Yes, we dismissed them. The serious question is on what grounds we dismiss them. I feel horribly guilty of spoiling your day. Yet, we should be more or less in accord with the real word – but in accord!
You have dismissed them on the grounds that your belief in the God of the Bible provides the 100 percent certainty of consistency that our “worldview” can’t provide. (See, I’ve been listening.)
What you’re failing to appreciate is that it doesn’t matter if your view provides 100 percent certainty if it isn’t also true.
Salty Dog made much of the need to show internal consistency, and I’ll grant that he makes a fair point: a way of looking at things that isn’t self-consistent requires some adjusting.
But his argument, and yours, fails on a crucial second test: A correct worldview must account for what we see in the actual world.
To the extent that we consider day-to-day life, it really doesn’t matter. You can say you know that when get out of bed you’ll end up standing on the floor and not floating up to the ceiling because God consistently causes it to happen that way, and I can reach the same conclusion because of gravity. Either way, we both end up standing on the floor.
It is when we look to the distant past as recorded in the Bible and as discovered by scientific inquiry that the trouble starts. You and the Canine have insisted that the physical evidence — fossils, geological strata, tree rings, etc. — all support sudden Creation and a catastrophic flood.
They do not. And asserting that they must because that’s what the Bible says is exactly where the attempt to establish the superiority of that worldview crashes to the ground (thanks to gravity.)
Not only are you not accounting for the disappearance of the bottle of wine, you’re insisting that the victim was hanged — even though we’ve found only evidence of a hammer blow or pills — because you hold in your hand a book written thousands of years ago that tells you it was a noose.
And Kojak is stuck in traffic on the highway.
I don’t want to sound like children sound when they play football outside and have a disagreement. Yet, isn’t it you who refuses the necessity of intelligibility? Isn’t it you who refuses logic and ethic – for the sake of a neat theory?
Not at all. Logic demands that we follow the evidence where it leads. Logic doesn’t allow starting with a conclusion (your a priori belief in Genesis) and then insisting the evidence supports our conclusion no matter how obvious it becomes that it doesn’t.
Belief in God, by the way, even the God of the Bible, doesn’t require one to believe everything in the Bible is literal.
This will help you understand Erasmus’s reference to a Scotsman, and also, the weakness in your case.
Now that’s the one issue I really hold dear. Because I want you to have science. And yet, I don’t want you to come up with ideas Hitler developed on a human race. Scientifically, I think, you couldn’t beat his arguments. Or do you silently side with that guy?
You are skirting Godwin’s Law, be careful. Comparing Erasmus and I to Hitler is not a wise way to debate.
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#470: Why should a new dinosaur discovery prove creationists wrong? I fail to see your point.
When new fossils are discovered, it’s not just new fossils. It’s how old they are, the type of earth they were found in, where they were found, what position they were found. How old can lead to their position in the evolutionary record. Where could give an idea of what other animals they were related to as well as possible prey or predators. The type of dinosaur can give an indication of climate. The type of material they were found in could also be an indicator there might be others in a similar type of material. Traits in the bones can indicate relatives and where their place stands in the record. The sheer volume of information scientists have accumulated is so great, I would think those that get their info from one book would be too embarrassed to argue.
#470: Why is there life after all on this planet?
That’s a philosophical question, not science.
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Dear readers, watch this:
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ERASMUS (#377): you are caught in a lie
ASALTYDOG (#386): What’s bad about lying, Erasmus? Do tell.
ERASMUS (#377): Again, more lying.
ASALTYDOG (#386): And once again, lest we forget, do tell me Erasmus, what’s so bad about lying?
ERASMUS (#377): More lies.
ASALTYDOG (#386): What’s wrong with piling up a bunch of lies?
ERASMUS (#422): You’re a liar.
ASALTYDOG (#423): Liar? Liar? What’s that? I asked you before, you never got around to explaining to me what that means, but you keep on using the word. Mmm. Mr Ott, should I call the police?
ERASMUS at #438: Liar.
ASALTYDOG at #440: Liar? Liar? Coming from you, “liar” already sounds like a compliment. Every time you call me a liar, sir, you remind everybody here that you have lost the debate. What’s wrong with lying, Erasmus? I asked many times that you show what that word means, and that you provide a justification for it, but you keep running away naked, scared to death, toward the forest. I hold my dogs now. All readers have seen enough. I have accomplished what I wanted. Keep on shouting from your cave, Erasmus. Nobody will pay attention to the screams of a crazy man.
ERASMUS (#441): that makes you a liar in most people’s book
ASALTYDOG (#442): once again, you seem to think lying is something bad, but I have no idea why you think so.
ERASMUS (#441): It seems that you claim that there is no reason to not lie, without believing in the Christianity that you speak for as a representative. Now, here I assume that lying is not privileged, in your estimation, and that there is equally no account for choosing not to steal, not to murder, rape, beat puppies, spill your seed upon the ground, etc etc. So, since there is this sticky problem of how to do comparitive analysis of ‘worldview’, it seems to me we can only conclude that you are arguing that For You you have no reason to not murder your wife, or sleep with her brother’s four year old, or decapitate the first eleven people you meet on the way to work, or blow up a mosque, For You you have no reason not to do these things if the Bible is Not True.
ASALTYDOG (#442): False, that is not my point at all. And do you mean there’s something wrong about all these activities? Random bags of stuff stumbling upon each other, aren’t we?
ERASMUS (#443): If you need the Triune God to keep from having sex with mallard ducks or from stealing from beggars, by all means. I wouldn’t want you to relapse. But it is question begging foolishness to claim that this is coherent.
ASALTYDOG (#460): And once again you cowardly ignore the question I actually asked, and try to distract and sidetrack readers. Well, I guess that’s because an honest and honorable man’s gotta do what a honest and honorable man’s gotta do. For your convenience, I’ll repeat the question: Given your position, what’s the difference between those activities and a day at the beach?
ERASMUS (latest): [ No reply ]
ERASMUS (#443): you are willing to lie for your jesus so much
ASALTYDOG (#460): And do you mean lying is bad? How come?
ERASMUS (latest): [ No reply ]
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So, folks, can you see a pattern there?
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ASALTYDOG: I need Him for breathing and for keeping together my protons so they won’t fall off my ears, let alone for keeping me from sin…
ERASMUS at #462: How so? How does god keep your protons from falling off your ears (do you know what protons are?)? What is this ’sin’ you ramble about?
ASALTYDOG: I haven’t the slightest idea how God keeps protons from falling off my ears, but I am so thankful for that. I mean, I don’t know where I would be if I lost all my protons. This ’sin’ I ramble about is disobedience to God’s commands, which enables me to distinguish between stealing from beggars and skiing, between yodeling and lying, and between the Holocaust and a day at the beach. Do you also distinguish between these things? How?
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ERASMUS: Again, you claim an ontological prior that you simply cannot provide any evidence for whatsoever.
ASALTYDOG: ”I can provide and I did provide”
ERASMUS: Where? All you said was Duh Bibble this and that, which is, as a wiser man than your moses once said, riding the oxen in search of the oxen.
ASALTYDOG: More than one hundered posts ago, at #367. I also referenced that many times, but you always ignored that. And differently from you, Sir, I have answered your questions the first time you asked them.
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ASALTYDOG: “it shows my argument has been irrefutable and devastating. It shows you have no excuse, just as surely as one divided by one is one. But you are envious as Hell that it all works through simple, childish faith in the Bible.”
ERASMUS: just as devastating as the beggar on the street who tells me he is napoleon. you have the same epistemology. i am envious in the same way that i am envious of raspberry vines, and how they sleep in winter.
ASALTYDOG: I have answered your questions on how Christianity accounts for science, logic and ethics. You have refused to answer my challenge to show how your position accounts for these things. Instead, you have engaged in consistent misrepresentation, lying and slander. The only thing to your credit is that you have also systematically refused to show why those activities are ethically wrong. So that’s a kind of perverse consistency, one may argue. I call it with another word. Since you refused to answer, my argument stands. Your only defense amounts to telling me I am crazy. That’s fine with me.
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ASALTYDOG: “Hint: show first why two plus two shouldn’t make five.”
ERASMUS: It does, if you define math in such a way.
ASALTYDOG: “It does”? I said show, Sir, not assert.
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ASALTYDOG: “If the Theory of Evolution were true, there would be no way to distinguish between the Theory of Evolution and a Chewbacca defense”
ERASMUS: and nothing more but baseless assertion after baseless assertion.
ASALTYDOG: Fine, we can test this immediately. You believe in the Theory of Evolution, right? Tell me then me how you distinguish between the Theory of Evolution and a Chewbacca Defense, Sir. Should be easy. Folks, stand by and watch, we’re gonna have some fun tonight. Erasmus, remember to call all the king’s horses and all the king’s men to give you a hand (assuming horses have hands).
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ERASMUS: the baseless assertion that your gawd promised a consistency of nature after the flood is flatly contradicted by the rest of your old testament. Job. david. blah. it doesn’t matter, you are not interested in consistency.
ASALTYDOG: It is not a baseless assertion, as I did not make it up. God never promised that He would quit being God, or that He would quit upholding the universe. I already explained the significance of this promise and the biblical balance between uniformity of nature and miracles in #317 and #436. God’s promise is the foundation for the reliability of uniformitarianism when interpreting post-Flood history. It disqualifies the reliability of uniformitarianism for studying pre-Flood history.
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ERASMUS: just gawd dunned it, i buhleave it and that settles it. hic.
ASALTYDOG: Yes, that’s pretty much me. A guy cares about his brains, you know. Except I put down the bottle earlier than that.
___
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STEVEG at #463: The thesis of Dog/Ott is simply that “Without the God of the Bible, there is no absolute basis for reality.” It is a cousin of the “Without the God of the Bible, there is no absolute basis for morality.”
ASALTYDOG: Steve, affirming that a thesis is “simply something” doesn’t refute it. Secondly, when you interact with my position, please don’t start answering other theses that may sound to you similar to mine. Either you answer me or you don’t. I am not defending other people’s theses. Likewise you started talking about the thesis of Dog/Ott. I don’t know who “Dog/Ott” is. Please don’t combine your answers in this way. I can speak only for myself here. While I appreciate Mr Ott’s stand, I can’t say I will automatically agree with everything Mr. Ott will say. I have not followed your discussion with him as closely as I followed our own discussion, so I am not even sure I would agree with everything he has said so far. If you want to engage my argument, then please look at me in the eyes and talk to me. I do the same when I talk to you.
STEVEG: Both arguments fail because they assume there must be such an absolute basis. But what if there isn’t?
ASALTYDOG: I don’t know what these other theses want, or what they have to do with me. But what you say here is precisely what I challenged you about. You sound like somebody who has walked in circles and doesn’t realize how that alley will bring him back to square one. Or, you sound promisingly like somebody who is just about to realize Santa Claus doesn’t exist. Keep thinking, Steve, I’m rooting for you. If “there isn’t” an absolute basis for science and for logic, then the “Theory of Evolution” itself is gone. It becomes gibberish. Everything becomes gibberish. That’s the end of rationality. If the law of non-contradiction is unsure, then it doesn’t exist. You write things like “Logic demands that we follow the evidence where it leads.” But if it’s not sure that logic demands it, we have no obligation to follow anything anywhere. You cannot affirm the consequent. Oh yeah? Says who? You have the burden of proof. Oh yeah? Says who? My argument is sound. Oh yeah? Says who? Not only that, but this is exactly what would be the case if evolutionism were true. You don’t believe me? Pay attention to where you are standing right now, compared to where you were standing when you posted your first message in thsi forum. You have the honor of being the very first person to make explicit reference and appeal to “logic” in this forum. You did that at #71, in order to defend evolutionism. “I don’t understand how people can’t see the glaring logic error there”, you wrote. Notice how after 400 messages, in order to still be able to defend evolutionism, you are now extolling the virtues of irrationalism. “Okay, what’s so bad about not being 100 percent sure about logic?” Your shift toward irrationalism is clear, and I am not surprised in the least. Steve, it’s the other way around. Rational proof is possible, therefore it is the case that there is an absolute basis for science and logic. But who is providing it? That is the question. It can’t be your worldview. It can’t be an evolutionistic worldview. The reason is that these positions destroy rationality. See how you are forced to abandon logic when you try to defend them? Why would you do that? Aren’t you paying a price which is way too high? What has Charles Darwin done for you that you should abandon your mind in order to defend him? The only way to preserve rationality is to be baptized at your local church. Do it fast.
STEVEG: What if we can only be sure of reality to a 99.9999 percent certainty instead of 100 percent?
ASALTYDOG: Please explain how you can “be sure of reality to a 99.9999 percent certainty”, given your position. Or any position, except mine. Please explain what device you are using to measure the percentage. Can I find it on eBay? If justifying that high percentage proves too demanding after all, it’s okay, try justifying 0.0001 percent certainty. Please explain how science can work if the law of non-contradiction is not sure. Please explain how any argument can be persuasive if there is no certainty. Please explain how the ethical obligation to follow a syllogism is maintained if there is no absolute certainty as to the cogency of the argument. How do you counter the “Oh yeah? Says who?” attitude? And as for ethics, if you think evolutionism has achieved a less than perfect but nevertheless satisfactory 99.9999 percent certainty that lying is bad, how come nobody is telling me how you guys have achieved it? I asked and asked, but I received no reply. Why do you want to keep that secret for yourselves?
STEVEG: What if the only basis for morality is what works for a society at a given point in time?
ASALTYDOG: That could have been more or less the line of defense of the convicted Nazi criminals at the Nuremberg trials. Do you mean there is no ethical difference between the Holocaust and a day at the beach? And since there is no objective obligation not to lie, cheat, steal and kill, why should anybody care what works for the society at a given point of time, if it goes against one’s own personal immediate advantage? What obligation does one have to follow what works for a society? And even if your machine says that it is now confirmed that there is a 99.9999 percent certainty that lying is bad, why do I have an obligation to pay attention to what your machine is saying? Why should I tell the truth?
And now if you and Mr. Ott don’t mind, I’ll make some comments on a few issues you raise in your recent messages to Mr. Ott. I do this because these issues regard me directly. First some light stuff.
STEVEG (at #466, to Mr. Ott): You mean like when your buddy Dog rambles on about his dogs pursuing, or answers Erasmus with a series of weird, non-responsive non-sequiturs, or quotes pop songs in lieu of making a point?
ASALTYDOG: Steve, if you want me to bore you to death, I can do that too. And if you think that’s what I’ve done so far, you haven’t seen anything yet. And the songs do make a point.
STEVEG (at #467, to Mr. Ott): You, Ott, arrived on the scene just when the Dog was in dire need of some backup.
ASALTYDOG: Thanks for keeping me informed about my needs.
STEVEG (at #472, to Mr. Ott): What you’re failing to appreciate is that it doesn’t matter if your view provides 100 percent certainty if it isn’t also true.
ASALTYDOG: Steve, I’ll say it again. It works this way. Christianity must be true because science, ethics and logic are true. You agree that they are true, so you must presuppose Christianity to be true. Not conclude, presuppose. If you try presupposing evolutionism, which you never do, that would destroy science, logic and ethics, as witnessed by your and Erasmus’s inability to account for them given your worldview. But you do presuppose Christianity without thinking about it whenever you engage in actual science, logic and ethics. When you engage in such activities, you do not presuppose evolutionism. You presuppose Christianity. This is why I say you are hypocrites. And thieves. You attack Christianity, but you presuppose it in order to attack it. Now read this again and think about it. And remember I love you. I really do.
STEVEG (at #472, to Mr. Ott): A correct worldview must account for what we see in the actual world.
ASALTYDOG: Correct.
STEVEG (at #472, to Mr. Ott): You and the Canine have insisted that the physical evidence — fossils, geological strata, tree rings, etc. — all support sudden Creation and a catastrophic flood. They do not. And asserting that they must because that’s what the Bible says is exactly where the attempt to establish the superiority of that worldview crashes to the ground (thanks to gravity.)
ASALTYDOG: I can speak only for myself here. Steve, that is not what I have argued at all, although I do not disagree with it. I have not argued from the fossils to the Bible in that way. Instead, I have argued that what you call “physical evidence” doesn’t talk but needs to be interpreted. I have argued that the evolutionary interpretation of the “psysical evidence” is not necessarily true, because the evidence does fit the biblical scenario. You have tried to disprove that, but you have failed to reply to my counterobjections. What you have eventually done, though, is to complain that the evidence does fit the biblical scenario, when you suddenly remembered that God is a factor in the biblical scenario, and when you realized that you were assuming the non-existence of the biblical God to prove the Bible wrong. Finally, I have argued for the truth of Christianity through another line of reasoning — from its internal consistency and the impossibility of the contrary. All that stuff about logic, science and ethics. Now suppose you accept that second line of reasoning. For the sake of discussion. Work with me here. Suppose you find my argument for the existence of the Triune God convincing enough through that line of reasoning, which is the only line I used. Now we can go back to the question of the fossils, the Flood, etc., with this new presupposition in mind, that it is reasonable to believe in the existence of the Triune God (in fact, that believing in Him is necessary to save rationality). Now you will find yourself looking at the same fossils, but from the other side of the fence. You will keep admitting, like you did before, that the “physical evidence” does fit the biblical scenario. But you will not complain anymore about it. That will be the only difference, Steve. You will have saved your rationality, and you will understand that the physical evidence does support the Bible after all. And I’ll offer you a beer. Unless you insist I go to Rwanda first.
___
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Wow, looks like the dog still has dew claws and they are sunk in deep.
I think I get his point.
Believe God’s word, look at creation from God’s perspective not man’s…. Then you have logic, science and ethics. Real right and wrong…..
Thanks ASALTYDOG
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You’re welcome, Chosen! (Which is something I’m sure you’ll hear in due time from Someone more worthy.)
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A Salty Dog at #475:
I can speak only for myself here. Steve, that is not what I have argued at all, although I do not disagree with it. I have not argued from the fossils to the Bible in that way. Instead, I have argued that what you call “physical evidence” doesn’t talk but needs to be interpreted. I have argued that the evolutionary interpretation of the “psysical evidence” is not necessarily true, because the evidence does fit the biblical scenario. You have tried to disprove that, but you have failed to reply to my counterobjections. What you have eventually done, though, is to complain that the evidence does fit the biblical scenario, when you suddenly remembered that God is a factor in the biblical scenario, and when you realized that you were assuming the non-existence of the biblical God to prove the Bible wrong.
No, I didn’t. I recognized that if you’re going to ignore the physical evidence and declare “God did it no matter what it looks like,” there’s no point in debating. If you do that, then physical evidence becomes meaningless to you (not to the rest of us, but to you.)
Far from establishing a basis for rationality and logic, as you continue to insist it does, this actually destroys it.
By the way, you assume the non-existence of Zeus in order to prove ancient Greek religion wrong.
Also by the way, the evidence DOES NOT fit the Biblical scenario, with or without God, so please don’t misrepresent my position. What you do is to invoke God and declare the evidence to be supportive because under your presupposition, you don’t dare admit that it’s not. But it’s not.
Finally, I have argued for the truth of Christianity through another line of reasoning — from its internal consistency and the impossibility of the contrary. All that stuff about logic, science and ethics. Now suppose you accept that second line of reasoning. For the sake of discussion. Work with me here. Suppose you find my argument for the existence of the Triune God convincing enough through that line of reasoning, which is the only line I used. Now we can go back to the question of the fossils, the Flood, etc., with this new presupposition in mind, that it is reasonable to believe in the existence of the Triune God (in fact, that believing in Him is necessary to save rationality). Now you will find yourself looking at the same fossils, but from the other side of the fence. You will keep admitting, like you did before, that the “physical evidence” does fit the biblical scenario. But you will not complain anymore about it. That will be the only difference, Steve. You will have saved your rationality, and you will understand that the physical evidence does support the Bible after all.
I actually did this for a few years. I did not see the evidence as fitting the Biblical scenario. Even in my most fervent Christian belief, the farthest I could go was to accept that God used evolution, perhaps with some intelligent design here and there, as his process of creation.
Want to know why? Because I always understood the basics of the science of evolution and never saw any reason to reject it, even from a Christian viewpoint. Here’s hoping you too will one day recognize you don’t have to sacrifice your intelligence on the altar of faith.
By the way, my Deist worldview that you keep claiming is not internally consistent? You’ve not yet shown me one reason to think you’re right.
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Hi Steve,
thanks for the “Scotsman”. Also thanks for reminding me of Godwin’s Law. Again we realize that at least someone did what the law wanted. I am guilty. Fullstop.
Yet, maybe I did it in a careless way or you maybe misunderstood my intention (or both). I wanted to make a statement, obviously not in a wise fashion.
What was the idea? The idea was to open your eyes to a problem you can’t escape as I think. I didn’t want to blame you (not to mention Erasmus, I didn’t have him in mind when I was writing #471) and didn’t want to challenge your political opinion. I have only the problem in mind. What is the problem? Let’s assume for a minute that Hitler’s ideas were right and the Arians are a better human race, more developed than some others. You see this is a dangerous claim. You as an evolutionist can’t stop that awful maniac. Vice versa, you must give applause to a great evolutional reasoning stated by a wise statesman – which science one day will either dismiss or accept through self-correction. Feelings and ethics at least, aren’t allowed to dismiss that man’s idea. You must critize Hitler internally. Well, the man is dead. But his idea is still alive in some people’s heads. Why on Earth are they wrong? That was my point. Remember please, that before asking my final question, I wrote “Scientifically, I think, you couldn’t beat his arguments.” Do you understand what I mean? I really fear, you are stripped off a solid explanation why siding with that guy is good or bad. That is what I wanted you to realize. Do you disagree with Hitler’s ideas ultimately scientifically or ethically? Or (some kind of back door:) on another basis?
SteveG (#472): “You have dismissed them on the grounds that your belief in the God of the Bible provides the 100 percent certainty of consistency that our “worldview” can’t provide. (See, I’ve been listening.)”
Correct!
You were listening well, Steve! That is why I enjoy this discussion with you. I am maybe exhausted of reading a few things written here and there. But I appreciate you as an honest “pen-friend”. I disagree with a lot you say, but I like the direct and friendly way of yours. Indeed, it feels good to come back to this thread and see what you have been writing.
This doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t mind reading your same questions over and over again, as if they hadn’t been already answered and read and understood/dismissed and archived.
ASaltyDog interacts with you on the same channel “100 percent certainty” and did that most of the time in #475 – honestly, I couldn’t ever do it as well. And I totally agree with it.
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E.D. Ott at #479: Why on Earth are they wrong? That was my point.
I appreciate your re-stating it more tactfully. Let’s unpack this to see where your reasoning fails (and it does.)
I have only the problem in mind. What is the problem? Let’s assume for a minute that Hitler’s ideas were right and the Arians are a better human race, more developed than some others. You see this is a dangerous claim. You as an evolutionist can’t stop that awful maniac. Vice versa, you must give applause to a great evolutional reasoning stated by a wise statesman – which science one day will either dismiss or accept through self-correction. Feelings and ethics at least, aren’t allowed to dismiss that man’s idea.
Let’s assume for a minute that Christianity is true and in fact is true in every particular believed by the literalist/fundamentalist.
This gives you a handy external reason to say Hitler was wrong to exterminate 6 million people. However, if you read it honestly, it just as easily gives you a handy external reason to say those that Hitler killed deserved death. The Jews? Unsaved heretics. The homosexuals? God himself ordained death for them.
And even if Hitler committed grave sin in his murders, he could have confessed, repented and begged for God’s mercy in his final minutes, as the thief on the cross next to Jesus did in the Gospel According to Luke. The result: Hitler is in heaven, while the Christ-rejecting Jews and the unrepentant homosexuals are in hell.
Does that sound right to you?
Now, you commit a grave error in speaking of me as an “evolutionist” as if evolution were a religion. Evolution is nothing more than a description of biological life and how it works. To say an “evolutionist” can’t speak against Hitler is like saying a plumber can’t draw on his knowledge of plumbing to grow corn. The two things have no connection to each other.
In fact, I as a human being can refute Hitler’s plans simply by drawing on my natural empathy to conclude that it’s wrong to exterminate a group of people because you’ve deemed them “inferior.”
You can point at a God as a basis for saying it; so? the Jews are just as dead (and possibly just as damned).
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Wow – the “hopeful monster” (thread) has become a living fossil!
And here I always thought Hitler’s anti-semitism came from Martin Luther…
Nazis Expropriated Luther’s Anti-Semitic Rantings
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From the dog: “the evidence does fit the biblical scenario.”
Denial apparently ain’t just a river in Egypt!
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STEVEG at #478:
___
STEVEG: No, I didn’t. I recognized that if you’re going to ignore the physical evidence and declare “God did it no matter what it looks like,” there’s no point in debating. If you do that, then physical evidence becomes meaningless to you (not to the rest of us, but to you.)
ASALTYDOG: When did I ever “ignore the physical evidence”, Steve? You are making up stuff, and believe me it looks pathetic. “No matter what it looks like”, eh? You have not provided a single piece of evidence that is as utterly inconsistent with the Bible (and the whole Bible) as you make it sound here. I see nothing in the fossil record that is inconsistent with what the Bible says. Not one blessed thing. I do see problems and interesting questions, but I see no inconsistencies. In order to have an inconsistency you would need to make a whole lot of unprovable assumptions, but go ahead and try if you want. My point stands, and you simply confirm it. As I said, I have argued that the evolutionary interpretation of the “psysical evidence” is not necessarily true, because the evidence does fit the biblical scenario. You tried to disprove that, but you quit that crusade. The point is that you didn’t disprove my point. Go ahead and complain about it if you want, like a foolish man who complains he can’t prove the number four doesn’t exist. Evidence becomes indeed meaningless if you presuppose evolutionism. Why don’t you try that for a change? Presuppose evolution, tell me what you see, and try saying anything intelligible about it. I am not holding my breath, although I know that you wil try to presuppose Christianity and pretend you didn’t. What should be the case in order for evidence to be meaningful? Only by assuming the truth of Christianity you can have those crucial presuppositions to the meaningfulness of evidence. So your comment here is full of lies and makes no sense whatever. You have read my argument, you have understood it, you are helpless, but you are playing dumb.
STEVEG: Far from establishing a basis for rationality and logic, as you continue to insist it does, this actually destroys it.
ASALTYDOG: Prove it. Before you do, assume evolutionism to be true.
STEVEG: By the way, you assume the non-existence of Zeus in order to prove ancient Greek religion wrong.
ASALTYDOG: Ancient Greek religion cannot provide the basis for science, logic and ethics. And if you think I’m wrong, why don’t you embrace it? And just to clarify, I assume the existence of the Triune God of the Bible when I try to prove anything. So do you. It’s an inescapable assumption. The difference between me and you is that you absurdly and hypocritically go on to use that assumption to attack the Triune God.
STEVEG: Also by the way, the evidence DOES NOT fit the Biblical scenario, with or without God, so please don’t misrepresent my position.
ASALTYDOG: I was just running out of useless, dry, mere assertions for my fireplace. Thanks.
STEVEG: What you do is to invoke God and declare the evidence to be supportive because under your presupposition, you don’t dare admit that it’s not. But it’s not.
ASALTYDOG: I don’t know what you’re talking about. I have explained what I did. You are free to refuse to believe me and attribute to me all kinds of untrue intentions. This is not surprising, because my argument leaves you with no other choice: unconditional surrender, or fight dirty to justify your continuing rebellion against the Triune God. You are free to go on asserting that “the evidence is not supportive of the biblical scenario” until the cows come home, but as you don’t explain how, you sound like someone who draws his gun and tells everybody at the table, “Okay guys, I won this poker game, dammit. Anybody here who disagrees?”
STEVEG: I actually did this for a few years. I did not see the evidence as fitting the Biblical scenario. Even in my most fervent Christian belief, the farthest I could go was to accept that God used evolution, perhaps with some intelligent design here and there, as his process of creation. Want to know why? Because I always understood the basics of the science of evolution and never saw any reason to reject it, even from a Christian viewpoint. Here’s hoping you too will one day recognize you don’t have to sacrifice your intelligence on the altar of faith.
ASALTYDOG: You never saw any reason to reject the basics of the science of evolution? Wrong question to start with. You should have asked yourself whether the Theory of Evolution was giving you any reason to reject Genesis. Boy, Steve, were you naive. And you never saw any reason to reject the basics of the science of evolution because, I submit, you naively couldn’t see further than your nose. Ideas have consequences. You were not able to see that by putting death before sin, the theory of evolution creates a fatal inconsistency in the Christian Gospel. “In your fervent Christian belief”, eh? As a Christian, weren’t you interested in the Gospel? And you were not able to see that it is the Myth of Evolution that indeed sacrifices your intellect on the altar of Darwin, as C.S. Lewis aptly observes. Let me quote him again:
“Every science claims to be a series of inferences from observed facts. It is only by such inferences that you can reach your nebulae and protoplasm and dinosaurs and sub-men and cave-men at all. Unless you start by believing that reality in the remotest space and the remotest time rigidly obeys the laws of logic, you can have no ground for believing in any astronomy, any biology, any palaeontology, any archaeology. To reach the positions held by the real scientists — which are then taken over by the Myth — you must, in fact, treat reason as an absolute. But at the same time the Myth asks me to believe that reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of a mindless process at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. The content of the Myth thus knocks from under me the only ground on which I could possibly believe the Myth to be true. If my own mind is a product of the irrational — if what seem my clearest reasonings are only the way in which a creature conditioned as I am is bound to feel — how shall I trust my mind when it tells me about Evolution? They say in effect: ‘I will prove that what you call a proof is only the result of mental habits which result from heredity which results from bio-chemistry which results from physics.’ But this is the same as saying: ‘I will prove that proofs are irrational’: more succinctly, ‘I will prove that there are no proofs’.” (C.S. Lewis on the Myth of evolution)
STEVEG: By the way, my Deist worldview that you keep claiming is not internally consistent? You’ve not yet shown me one reason to think you’re right.
ASALTYDOG: I have repeatedly challenged you to provide an account for science, logic and ethics from your position. I have received no reply. I asked you how you know that your God created anything. No reply. The impotency and inconsistency of your position is seen in the fact that you make this kind of bold claims about your God while your theology, denying as it does special revelation and divine involvement in human affairs, dynamites the possibility of you having knowledge about him. Your evolutionistic deism makes a foolish hypocritical irrational idolater out of you. You gave up Jesus Christ, in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, by whom all things consist, and in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, for a cheap darwinian soup. You deserve to eat it now.
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Dog: “I see nothing in the fossil record that is inconsistent with what the Bible says.”
And you do this by not LOOKING at the fossil record, right?
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Dog, I hope you’re not confining your study of fossils to the prevaricating utterances of YEC propagandists, who do no paleontology, and simply surf out-dated literature for quotes to take out of context. If this is your notion of “interpretation,” then I see you think the word is synonymous with lying. This is easily discovered by simply fact-checking what they say. Do you ever do that? Have you ever even taken a geology or paleontology course? Read a mainsteram account of the content of the fossil record?
The fossil record is certainly open to interpretation on the details of ancient pre-history. But it utterly falsifies a literal reading of Genesis 1.
Fossils are not in anything like Genesis order
Radio-isotope dating gives ages that contradict the Genesis timescale by 11 orders of magnitude
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SPINOZA: If this is your notion of “interpretation,” then I see you think the word is synonymous with lying.
ASALTYDOG: Why not lie?
SPINOZA: Fossils are not in anything like Genesis order
ASALTYDOG: What’s the Genesis order?
SPINOZA: Radio-isotope dating gives ages that contradict the Genesis timescale by 11 orders of magnitude.
ASALTYDOG: Good point. So they can’t be correct.
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What’s the Genesis order?
You tell me.
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ASALTYDOG: Why not lie?
Jesus wouldn’t like it
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SPINOZA: Radio-isotope dating gives ages that contradict the Genesis timescale by 11 orders of magnitude.
ASALTYDOG: Good point. So they can’t be correct.
SPINOZA: Ah I see – you are lunatic fringe! Good for you!
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SPINOZA: Fossils are not in anything like Genesis order.
ASALTYDOG: What’s the Genesis order?
SPINOZA: You tell me.
ASALTYDOG: I have no idea.
___
ASALTYDOG: Why not lie?
SPINOZA: Jesus wouldn’t like it
ASALTYDOG: I know. So you’re a Christian?
___
SPINOZA: Radio-isotope dating gives ages that contradict the Genesis timescale by 11 orders of magnitude.
ASALTYDOG: Good point. So they can’t be correct.
SPINOZA: Ah I see – you are lunatic fringe! Good for you!
ASALTYDOG: No problem. Have a nice day, too.
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So from 490 I conclude
You don’t really know what’s in the Bible
But you prefer it to reality
And lying is just fine
That explains pretty much everything you wrote above. Thanks for clarifying!
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SPINOZA: Radio-isotope dating gives ages that contradict the Genesis timescale by 11 orders of magnitude.
ASALTYDOG: Good point. So they can’t be correct.
SPINOZA: Ah I see – you are lunatic fringe! Good for you!
ASALTYDOG: No problem. Have a nice day, too.
Thanks for proving my point, ASaltyDog.
1. The observed evidence contradicts Genesis, contrary to your repeated assertions.
2. Your position is that when reality and the Bible conflict, it’s reality that’s wrong.
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Psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his book General Psychopathology. These criteria are:
* Certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* Incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* Impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
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So from #491 I conclude:
- You own a special edition of the Bible.
- You probably think there’s a real city called Duckburg.
- You are probably a Christian.
Some additional and/or alternative conclusions:
- You have supernatural powers.
- You don’t understand the concept of the burden of proof.
- You are easily impressed.
- You expect others to figure out your argument for you.
- You are into eZEN alogical thinking.
- You are a 9-year old kid.
And Karl Jaspers’s definition of the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his book General Psychopathology sounds very delusional. Oh, also the Theory of Evolution.
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* Certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* Incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* Impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
That’s deep.
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474
I won’t bother to judge you on whether or not being a liar is a good thing or a bad thing. I’ll just make the empirical observation that according to the way we define the word, you are a liar. whether or not that bothers you is your affair (and i’ll wager it doesn’t since it is done in the name of your ontological prior, The Void).
It’s not an absolute right or wrong that is determined by the will and grace of an omnipotent beast, etc, it’s a social convention determined by empirical observation of actual events. This means that the usage of right and wrong, in the vernacular and ordinary sense that we say it is wrong to run stop light or it is wrong to not play nice with the other kiddies, is most decidedly not based on any suite of metaphysical notions.
This is the way that the concept is used in reality.
But for you, ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are manifestations of the reified imaginary quantification of the maximum density of the angelic corpus on a blade of grass or a spider web. They are a tribute to the grace and benevolence of a deity that must only be composed of three parts, necessarily. Etc etc etc. As others have said, you can’t polish a turd.
Me: You’re riding the ox, in search of the ox.
Saul: More than one hundered posts ago, at #367. I also referenced that many times, but you always ignored that. And differently from you, Sir, I have answered your questions the first time you asked them. I don’t see what, in 367, you answered. But let’s see.
Chewbacca: “Rather, my purpose in drawing attention to this fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christians sees evidence for God out there, in the real world, supporting the truth of their worldview”
Reality: as you have consistently defined this worldview nonsense, a necessary consequence is that truth is relative to the observer (although you have maintained some sort of move towards the existence of an absolute form of this ethereal substance, but without the headlamp of baby jesus it will never make sense, or some such drivel). So, it’s trivial. So do millions of naked hottentots. They see evidence out there in the ‘real world’ for the truth of their world view. Witches. Dragon eats the sun. you know. sorcerers explanation ’step right up’ come down to the altar pass the bucket boys this one’s in the key of D.
So, aside from the fact that this is a dumb argument from the beginning, let’s play along.
Saul: The overwhelming majority of religious folks see evidence for their gods out there in the real world.
Erasmus: Your ‘evidence for gods’ is, in my view, wish fulfillment and intellectual dishonesty founded upon a paedomorphic psychological pathos. God is detected objectively! Why is there no ‘God Test’, then? Where do these god effects go when we break out ye olde materialist mathematical analysis of variance? Must ‘gods’ always be the interaction term between treatments? We could redefine the concept of variance, i imagine. sewall wright you godless cosmic atheist. and so on.
what you mean, i presume, is that ‘gods did it’ is an inductive leap that most people accept without seriously considering the error involved in such a leap. I’ll agree. I just don’t consider the argument that ‘Dad, all the other kids were doing it’ to be a worthwhile line of reasoning. Of course, with the appropriate ontology you can excuse about durned near anything. I’m sure you know something about that it.
from 483: “I see nothing in the fossil record that is inconsistent with what the Bible says. Not one blessed thing. I do see problems and interesting questions, but I see no inconsistencies.”
that’s rich. You can’t. You’ve already defined that evidence out of insistence, O equivocator. There can be no such evidence for you. Again, reification of the transcendental that you have no evidence for, other than your assertion that since you can imagine a five sided square it necessarily exists.
Saul, you ask me to show that 2+2 can equal 5. Descartes did this centuries ago. Please understand that this is the crux of the matter. Empirical equivalence, for you, is justification for arbitrary personal preference. The hilarious part is that this is precisely the area where you and i would agree about the necessity of ‘presumtpions’ (although in this context that means the conventions of mathematical formulation, including the logical definition of functions and the base 10 scale of communicating those relations) determining ‘worldview’ (in this context, analogous to how long a 2×6 needs to be to serve as say a fascia board to hang my gutters upon, or alternatively the amount of time necessary to bake a fat hen at 350 degrees to kill the germs).
But I’ll not allow your stealth move from the empirical to the ontological. You have moaned that my basis for doing so is that it is not ‘right’ and that there is no justification for such things without reference to absolute beasts, and I’ll gently remind you that we are remaining in the empirical world and don’t be clouding it up with the stench of aether or homunculi.
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SALT: You don’t understand the concept of the burden of proof.
ME: Uh … let’s see … Isn’t that where anybody who makes outrageous claims contradicted by loads of empirical evidence better have a really good reason?!
E.g., If a YEC such as yourself were to claim that nearly all the fossil record was laid down in a year by a global flood – despite all evidence to the contrary – it’s up to them to show compelling physical evidence for the claim.
Your idea of “burden of proof” seems to be that it’s never yours, since reality doesn’t exist. That’s – how shall we say – idiosyncratic at best. To criticize well-established scientific results while never answering for your own fundamentalist, superstitious beliefs is just sheer cowardice and confirms that you have no evidence for your belief – just denial of reality.
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Spinoza very nice catch. It is true that Saul is an anti-realist in the conventional use of the term, but I imagine that he might argue that there is an objective reality but that it is inherently unknowable (possibly due to, say, sin?) and hence the need for the grace of gods. good old epistemological relativism.
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499 yes you’re right –
DOG – please amend “denial of reality” to read “denial of knowing any approximation of reality”.
When I think of DOG’s arguments, I’m reminded of a childhood hymn:
“He lives. He lives. Christ Jesus lives today.
He walks with me. He talks with me on each and every day.
He Lives. He lives. Salvation to impart.
You ask me how I know he lives.
He Liiiiiiiiiives within my heart.
Now I do understand the psychological power of conversion, but even as a child I used to find the above punchline disappointing. Geeze isn’t there any more evidence than that!? Unfortunately – as SALTDOG’s replies amply illustrate – there isn’t.
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ERASMUS (#497): I won’t bother to judge you on whether or not being a liar is a good thing or a bad thing. I’ll just make the empirical observation that according to the way we define the word, you are a liar. whether or not that bothers you is your affair (and i’ll wager it doesn’t since it is done in the name of your ontological prior, The Void). It’s not an absolute right or wrong that is determined by the will and grace of an omnipotent beast, etc, it’s a social convention determined by empirical observation of actual events. This means that the usage of right and wrong, in the vernacular and ordinary sense that we say it is wrong to run stop light or it is wrong to not play nice with the other kiddies, is most decidedly not based on any suite of metaphysical notions. This is the way that the concept is used in reality.
ASALTYDOG: Okay, so no basis for objective ethical obligations for Erasmus. “Liar” is just a noise he causes with his mouth, much like burping. I kind of knew that Erasmus doesn’t mean any harm. He is not blaming me for failing to adhere to any obligations, nor is he calling me to conform to a certain standard of behavior, when he calls me a liar. He is just making funny sounds with his mouth. Erasmus once wrote: “Now, here I assume that lying is not privileged”, and he correctly guessed that I would ask the same question also about “steal, [...] murder, rape, beat puppies, spill your seed upon the ground, [...] murder your wife, or sleep with her brother’s four year old, or decapitate the first eleven people you meet on the way to work, or blow up a mosque, [...] having sex with mallard ducks, [...] stealing from beggars”. All these things are just a bunch of sounds we emit with our mouth, they entail no objective obligations, and they are undistinguishable from yodeling. This is consistent with his belief that we are just random, meaningless bags of stuff meaninglessly stumbling upon each other. I rest my case.
ERASMUS: as you have consistently defined this worldview nonsense, a necessary consequence is that truth is relative to the observer
ASALTYDOG: What is a necessary consequence? Do I have an obligation to believe it? Says who? Or, on the contrary, what are the preconditions that make it possible for you to to talk about necessary consequencies and imply obligations to adhere to them?
ERASMUS: (although you have maintained some sort of move towards the existence of an absolute form of this ethereal substance, but without the headlamp of baby jesus it will never make sense, or some such drivel). So, it’s trivial. So do millions of naked hottentots. They see evidence out there in the ‘real world’ for the truth of their world view. Witches. Dragon eats the sun. you know. sorcerers explanation ’step right up’ come down to the altar pass the bucket boys this one’s in the key of D. So, aside from the fact that this is a dumb argument from the beginning, let’s play along.
ASALTYDOG: You miss my point by a couple of light-years. So my point still stands. How do you distinguish between dumb arguments and non-dumb arguments? Or, on the contrary, what are the preconditions that make it possible for you to distinguish between dumb arguments and non-dumb arguments?
ERASMUS: “Saul: The overwhelming majority of religious folks see evidence for their gods out there in the real world.” Erasmus: Your ‘evidence for gods’ is, in my view, wish fulfillment and intellectual dishonesty founded upon a paedomorphic psychological pathos. God is detected objectively! Why is there no ‘God Test’, then? Where do these god effects go when we break out ye olde materialist mathematical analysis of variance? Must ‘gods’ always be the interaction term between treatments? We could redefine the concept of variance, i imagine. sewall wright you godless cosmic atheist. and so on.
ASALTYDOG: You miss my point by exactly three light-years. So my point still stands. You misquote me and lecture me about honesty. Why be honest? Is intellectual dishonesty a bad thing? Why? Is your “view” correct? Why? How do you know? You equate your “view” with “reality”? On what basis? Is your evidence for evolution wish fulfillment and intellectual dishonesty founded upon a paedomorphic psychological pathos? Why?
ERASMUS: what you mean, i presume, is that ‘gods did it’ is an inductive leap that most people accept without seriously considering the error involved in such a leap. I’ll agree.
ASALTYDOG: You presume wrong. What error is involved in such a leap? How do you distinguish between errors and non-errors? Or, on the contrary, what are the preconditions that make it possible for you to distinguish between errors and non-errors?
ERASMUS: I just don’t consider the argument that ‘Dad, all the other kids were doing it’ to be a worthwhile line of reasoning. Of course, with the appropriate ontology you can excuse about durned near anything. I’m sure you know something about that it.
ASALTYDOG: How do you distinguish between worthwhile lines of reasoning and non-worthwhile lines of reasoning? Or, on the contrary, what are the preconditions that make it possible for you to distinguish between worthwhile lines of reasoning and non-worthwhile lines of reasoning?
ERASMUS: from 483: “I see nothing in the fossil record that is inconsistent with what the Bible says. Not one blessed thing. I do see problems and interesting questions, but I see no inconsistencies.” that’s rich. You can’t. You’ve already defined that evidence out of insistence, O equivocator. There can be no such evidence for you. Again, reification of the transcendental that you have no evidence for, other than your assertion that since you can imagine a five sided square it necessarily exists.
ASALTYDOG: Why, if an equivocator (whoever he might be) defines evidence out of insistence (whatever that means) then he can’t see inconsistencies? Why can there be no such evidence for him? Is evolution reification of the transcendental that you have no evidence for, other than your assertion that since you can imagine a five sided square it necessarily exists? Why?
ERASMUS: Saul, you ask me to show that 2+2 can equal 5. Descartes did this centuries ago.
ASALTYDOG: Shouldn’t equal five. I am asking you, not Descartes.
ERASMUS: Please understand that this is the crux of the matter. Empirical equivalence, for you, is justification for arbitrary personal preference.
ASALTYDOG: Is empirical equivalence, for you, justification for your arbitrary personal preference? Why?
ERASMUS: The hilarious part is that this is precisely the area where you and i would agree about the necessity of ‘presumtpions’
ASALTYDOG: Would we agree that “presumtpions” (whatever they are) are also necessary in the theory of evolution? If not, why not? If so, what are they, and how do you justify them? And isn’t that hilarious too?
ERASMUS: (although in this context that means the conventions of mathematical formulation, including the logical definition of functions and the base 10 scale of communicating those relations) determining ‘worldview’ (in this context, analogous to how long a 2×6 needs to be to serve as say a fascia board to hang my gutters upon, or alternatively the amount of time necessary to bake a fat hen at 350 degrees to kill the germs). But I’ll not allow your stealth move from the empirical to the ontological. You have moaned that my basis for doing so is that it is not ‘right’ and that there is no justification for such things without reference to absolute beasts, and I’ll gently remind you that we are remaining in the empirical world and don’t be clouding it up with the stench of aether or homunculi.
ASALTYDOG: In other words, if I am supposed to find some sense in this mess, on the one hand you affirm the “necessity” of “presumtpions” or possibly “conventions”, but on the other hand you will “not allow” that necessity to be necessary. Can you also walk on water?
And voila, the post is finished, and 2 + 2 mysteriously still can’t equal five, I guess, but the proof is nowhere to be found. It’s not inside the hat, it’s not under the table. Well, there are those cryptic words: “we are remaining in the empirical world”. Well, he can’t be trying to define mathematical knowledge as inductive, can he, because then I would ask him to explain why he believes that 239857234789 + 198432534716 equals 438289769505, assuming that’s what he believes.
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STEVEG at #493: Thanks for proving my point, ASaltyDog. The observed evidence contradicts Genesis, contrary to your repeated assertions. Your position is that when reality and the Bible conflict, it’s reality that’s wrong.
ASALTYDOG: Not true. A particular fallible assumption-charged interpretation of the observed evidence appears to contradict Genesis. I stick with Genesis because the assumptions beg the question. This is not different from saying that the preservation of the spiral shape in galaxies is evidence that galaxies cannot be billions of years old, or saying that the rate of disintegration of comets shows the Solar System cannot be more than a few thousand years old. See, the observed evidence contradicts the Theory of Evolution. See, your position is that when reality and the Theory of Evolution conflict, it’s reality that’s wrong. Aren’t you interested in reality, Steve?
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The canine repeatedly demands to know why it’s wrong to lie, for people who don’t accept his presuppositions, while unwittingly demonstrating at least one of the reasons.
Why not lie in the course of a debate to make your point appear stronger?
– Because if you “win” the debate on the basis of lying, you’ve won nothing. You won’t go to hell (or need divine forgiveness for it) but you’ve only wasted your time and the time of others trying to have a dialogue with you.
Why not lie to your boss and say you’re sick when you really just want a day off?
– Because if you get caught, you can erode the trust between you and your boss. If you get caught enough times (and how many is enough depends on your boss’s tolerance for it) you can lose your chance of getting promoted, or a pay raise, or even get fired. You won’t go to hell (or need divine forgiveness) for it, but you will suffer consequences.
Why not lie to your wife and say you’re working late when you’re really having an affair with a co-worker?
– Because if you get caught, you can find yourself divorced and writing alimony checks. You won’t go to hell (or need divine forgiveness) for it, but you are betraying the trust of someone you supposedly love, and risking severe personal consequences.
Lying and getting away with it makes you a deceitful person. Lying and getting caught causes you real trouble. At the very best, people will trust you less. At the worst, you can lose things you need (like your job and your marriage.)
All of these are pragmatic and practical reasons not to lie and none of them require the existence of any God at all, let alone the specific God of the Bible.
Most people prefer to live in a society where they can count on other people to not steal their stuff, rape their daughters or murder their friends. In order to have such a society, most of us have to abide by rules intended to prevent those things and agree to punish those who violate them. Fortunately, most people don’t want to do those things in the first place, and don’t require fear of divine displeasure to compel them.
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Surfing AIG again, Salty? You should try something more competent.
“This is not different from saying that the preservation of the spiral shape in galaxies is evidence that galaxies cannot be billions of years old,’
Spiral shape is a density-wave pattern with a speed different from the orbiting stars – the “Windup” problem is a pseudo-problem. Doppler measurements of gas in galaxies prove this, and computer simulations reproduce the “density wave” patterns. This argument is a joke to professional astronomers. I know. I am one.
” or saying that the rate of disintegration of comets shows the Solar System cannot be more than a few thousand years old.”
That one’s really dumb – Kuiper Belt Objects prove what was already known from cometary orbits – there is a large population of cometary nuclei out of reach of the sun where they easily last billions of years. Cometary nuclei are occasionally jostled into near-solar orbits, however, where they do indeed disintegrate in a few thousand years (meteor showers are often the result); but this is of NO RELEVANCE to the age of the solar system.
Your statements are not just an alternate interpretation based on a YE assumption – they are WRONG! Not because they contradict evolution – but because they contain assumptions (pattern speed confused with velocity; cometary source from inside the solar system) that disagree with astronomical observations.
These are just 2 more examples of YEC mis-representations of scientific results. I.e., LIES.
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And let’s not forget that after repeatedly insisting the empirical evidence couldn’t conflict with Genesis, SaltyDog admitted in #487 that it does.
Game over, really.
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“A particular fallible assumption-charged interpretation of the observed evidence appears to contradict Genesis.”
Your adherence to YEC views in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is comparable to the act of jumping off a 20-story building because you consider gravity to be a “fallible assumption-charged interpretation of the observed evidence.” But I expect you don’t realize this, because you have shied away from any and all exposure to real science (especially geology!) and have, instead, lapped up the cultic utterances of deranged YEC liars.
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Saul
I’d say you have demonstrated the solipcist position fairly well. Now, since you object to the possibility that anything can be known at all (particularly to ‘knowledge’ in the objective sense) then you have effectively painted your own windows shut. You raise these epistemological issues with my account, and I’ll cheerfully grant you that in my view we have no guide other than personal empirical experience. This is particularly salient to your argument, for your foundational claim is that experience is not enough to justify reason: your unprovable always hanging in the air at the buzzer claim that baby jesus can stop time and steal the donut from my mouth just precisely at the moment my teeth click upon it is an attack I am absolutely and utterly vulnerable to. As well as the litany of other empirically equivalent flying four sided triangles and black white decibels and furiously sleeping green circumferences and loud silences traipsing into my room and creating universes every Tuesday.
the difference between your view and reality is that you don’t have any evidence for your claims that is available to inspection. You have presumptions, but they are not based on evidence. You have nothing to show for why you choose to believe X, in the face of all contrary evidence, but on a personal whim to believe X instead of Y. fare thee well.
O obliviot, if one defines numbers in the necessary manner 2 + 2 = 5 every single time. The difference is that we all agree that we will use the coordinate system where 2 + 2 = 4. But it is as completely arbitrary as your presuppositions, except we don’t have any psychological pathos invested why we choose 4 over 5, as you do with your account. It is a convention. But your ontology denies particulars.
Chewbacca:”This is consistent with his belief that we are just random, meaningless bags of stuff meaninglessly stumbling upon each other. I rest my case.”
Reality: Of course, I have never ever ever ever ever said this. You’re a liar. Over and over. But don’t let that stop you, i heard every time you Lie For Him baby jesus passes a kidney stone into a poop diaper.
Chewbacca:” I stick with Genesis because the assumptions beg the question. ”
Reality: No you don’t. More lies. You have formulated such a convoluted ontology that the statement “I’m going to the store for milk” is begging the question. In your system, you don’t have any logical basis for supposing the argument that this is true since your three headed beast could very easily fool you into thinking you have gone to the store while you are truly in Hell, and only his faith and mercy (what color are faith and mercy? How much do they weigh?) give you any reason to suppose that you are not really a brain in a vat or one of the non-elect. When you deny empiricism, this is the result, O Fount-Of-Not-Knowing.
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Oh learned ones, wake up. The whole lying thread is based on why do we know something is a lie. Where does this knowledge come from. I believe the knowledge comes from God. Lying is wrong because of sin. Its not from a collective group of people with mores and norms and empirical knowledge judging this is a lie, this is a truth, this is right, this is wrong.
There are absolutes, there is the truth, there is the lie. The lie is wrong, the truth is right.
The baiting questions about lying were to get you to think about it.
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The baiting questions about lying were to get you to think about it.
Well duh.
Your answer depends on the same unproved presupposition that the whole thread has been about since the Seasoned Canine limped onto the scene. That’s why we didn’t take the bait.
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Chosen have you even read any of this thread?
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SteveG (#480)
This reply is rather late. But better late than never. I lost my wallet, my credit cards, my passport…
E.D. Ott (#479): “Why on Earth are they wrong? That was my point.” They = people, who cling to Hitler’s ideas.
SteveG: I appreciate your re-stating it more tactfully. Let’s unpack this to see where your reasoning fails (and it does.)
E.D. Ott: Let us see by the end of this post, whether you are right, whether my reasoning fails.
SteveG: Let’s assume for a minute that Christianity is true and in fact is true in every particular believed by the literalist/fundamentalist.
E.D. Ott: Let’s see at what point the minute is over.
SteveG: This gives you a handy external reason to say Hitler was wrong to exterminate 6 million people.
E.D. Ott: And to be sure, if you didn’t presuppose Christianity being true – you would have a big problem in order to make guys like Hitler or Stalin be guilty of spending a day at the beach… Sorry, now I got something wrong. But the alert readers know what I am talking about.
SteveG: However, if you read it honestly, it just as easily gives you a handy external reason to say those that Hitler killed deserved death.
E.D. Ott: Actually, we ALL deserve death, if Christianity is true. Romans chapter 3.
SteveG: The Jews? Unsaved heretics. The homosexuals? God himself ordained death for them.
E.D. Ott: You are mixing up two different things being consistent within Christianity. Let’s clarify them first: God the Saviour and God the Judge. God (as Judge) has told us that we all fall short of the glory. We all, whether Jews or Gentiles! We all, whether homosexuals or not! Secondly, the situation as it is (we being ordained to die, as you wrote) has made God design a way out of death: By the substitutional death of His son Jesus Christ (the Saviour): “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (II. Cor 5:21). To make one other thing also still clear: God doesn’t delight in the death of His enemies. He says: “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” (Ezekiel 33:11)
SteveG: And even if Hitler committed grave sin in his murders, he could have confessed, repented and begged for God’s mercy in his final minutes, as the thief on the cross next to Jesus did in the Gospel According to Luke. The result: Hitler is in heaven, while the Christ-rejecting Jews and the unrepentant homosexuals are in hell.
E.D. Ott: I have been thinking a lot about this, too. Remember you assumed Christianity was true – for a minute. If so, then this is exactly the scenario. What we need to do is to repent of our sins, whatever the sins were! Think of Saul (I mean the real Saul, later known as Paul)! Also keep in mind that only God can see at our hearts. We don’t know whether all 6 million Jews rejected Christ.
One little additional note only between you and me: Many people call Hitler an erratic maniac. Yet, Historians say that he wasn’t a fool at all. He had a clear and – we still assume Christianity, right? – evil vision and a goal right from the start. And he carried it out according to his plans. What I want to say is that this guy was so wicked, so evil that it sounds inconceivable to me that he confessed of his sins in his last moments. But if he did – then he’s one step ahead of you, Steve. Remember: Better late than never!
SteveG: Does that sound right to you?
E.D. Ott: Still assuming Christianity: Yes. Thankfully, God holds to His promises. But if I understand you between the lines, you are saying that it isn’t good that God holds to them, don’t you? If you want God to give up His promises – you don’t speak for Christianity anymore but for yourself, with an unsaved soul. You want me to side with you that in fact Christianity wasn’t true at all. Am I right? Maybe you didn’t plan this as a pit for me to fall down. But one of us must fall down here. Fullstop.
SteveG: Now, you commit a grave error in speaking of me as an “evolutionist” as if evolution were a religion. Evolution is nothing more than a description of biological life and how it works. To say an “evolutionist” can’t speak against Hitler is like saying a plumber can’t draw on his knowledge of plumbing to grow corn. The two things have no connection to each other.
E.D. Ott: I had been always wondering why the German didn’t resist Hitler’s plans. Now I see: They applied your Plumber Rule. And they really must have thought that they were all innocent. What if I even added that evolution is one cause for Hitler’s grave error? So to speak, he was misled by the concept of evolution. Or should I say he took advantage of it? Now what you say as an Evolutionist? As a matter of fact, you already give a hint in the following line…
SteveG: In fact, I as a human being can refute Hitler’s plans simply by drawing on my natural empathy to conclude that it’s wrong to exterminate a group of people because you’ve deemed them “inferior.”
E.D. Ott: Natural empathy? Didn’t we still assume Christianity, Steve? At least, I think we still should. When it namely comes to killing – that’s where the Bible’s got something to say. Just a few lines above you said that as an Evolutionist you can’t do more than describe biological life, meaning you run away from your Christian duty and you actually can’t make absolute ethical decisions anymore. So it would be good if we still assumed Christianity a bit longer. So it was about killing. The stakes are high as Jesus points out: “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.” (Matthew 5: 21-22) That passage doesn’t exclude plumbers, nor does it exclude Evolutionists. To be sure, Jesus means all of us.
Of course and honestly, I am convinced that you can conclude from your conscience that Hitler’s plans were wrong. But would Mao and Stalin also agree with you and me? Actually, why should we take you or me as a believable authority here? Or why take society as a believable authority? Is infidelity justified by the green light the media give to it? Should we accept murder through a tiny little backdoor because some doctors want stem cells? We would be walking on very thin ice if it was up to us human beings to make decisions — on our natural empathy. To be sure, our natural empathy is corrupted to the core, as Christianity says. And you assumed Christianity to be right for this minute. Why agree with your corrupted natural empathy? Or why agree with mine? Or with Saddam Hussein’s? By the way, the Bible teaches that we all have a conscience in Romans chapter 2, but as we suppress God’s truth living in a condition of original sin, whose natural empathy is correct and right on target?
Still assuming Christianity, a Christian knows what is right and what is wrong. This doesn’t necessarily mean that a Christian wouldn’t sin. A Christian has a special responsibility: to make known God’s word and His promises. So I assume when you brought up what I call the Plumber Rule you must have thrown your Holy Bible – by mistake and generally too early – out of the window including all Christian assumptions. Now you claim my reasoning is false. I feel differently. You want to prove Christianity wrong by throwing the Bible out of the window.
I simply fear that you want me dead. Either you hit me dead with your Bible (as long as it is still indoors) or you want me to stand outside next to the window in the moment when you throw some heavy and deadly stuff.
SteveG: Let’s unpack this to see where your reasoning fails (and it does.)
E.D. Ott: Where did it fail? I can tell you the answer: It failed the very moment when you rejected Christianity!
SteveG: You can point at a God as a basis for saying it; so? the Jews are just as dead (and possibly just as damned).
E.D Ott: We should point at us. We are wicked. We fall short of the glory. We are sinners. We need salvation. As long as you point at God with a crooked finger – this doesn’t prove Christianity wrong, Steve.
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Ott: We are sinners.
Except for saltdog who claims that the fact he is “no longer in [his] sins” proves young earth creationism. This, then, is the conceit of evangelicalism – to claim on the one hand the fallen nature of all humanity, and then to claim their unique and special emancipation from it. To go further and use this puffed up claim as empirical evidence of anything is beyond the pale!
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#508 Truth is a property of propositions. It comes from logic.
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510. by Erasmus 02.19.08 at 8:20 am
Chosen have you even read any of this thread?
Yes, all up to 513.
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E.D Ott at #511:
I will formulate a longer response when I have more time, but for now I will just give you a chance to reformulate yours after clearing up this misconception of yours.
Just a few lines above you said that as an Evolutionist you can’t do more than describe biological life, meaning you run away from your Christian duty and you actually can’t make absolute ethical decisions anymore.
No. And I think you know this is wrong, but you say it anyway. How come?
I said evolution, as a science, is nothing more than a description of biological life.
YOU keep speaking as if evolution were some sort of philosophy. It is not. A person can understand and acception evolution as a description of biological life while holding any of a number of philosophical/theological views.
Many are Christians (Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project and author of The Language of God is one current example, but there are many others.) Some are adherents of other religions. Some are atheists, agnostics or Deists and even within those broad groups there are divergent philosophical opinions about ethics and morality.
To say an “evolutionist” is synonymous with a specifc philosophy is a fallacy. You are (deliberately? ignorantly? you tell me) conflating an acceptance of science with the embracing of a particular moral viewpoint.
You might as well say that only an amoral atheist accepts heliocentrism … it makes just as much sense.(That is to say, none.)
I’ll be able to return to this thread in a few hours. By then maybe you’ll have addressed this error of yours and we can continue.
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Spinoza at #512: This, then, is the conceit of evangelicalism – to claim on the one hand the fallen nature of all humanity, and then to claim their unique and special emancipation from it.
It is interesting, isn’t it? Have you ever known anyone who believed in the evangelical version of Christian theology and also believed their own soul would be among the damned? I haven’t.
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Spinoza (#512),
I did say “we are sinners”. Did you understand the context at all? SteveG and I assumed Christianity to be true. If you assumed Christianity, would you claim that we aren’t sinners by default?
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SteveG (#515)
E.D. Ott (#511): Just a few lines above you said that as an Evolutionist you can’t do more than describe biological life, meaning you run away from your Christian duty and you actually can’t make absolute ethical decisions anymore.
SteveG: No. And I think you know this is wrong, but you say it anyway. How come?
E.D. Ott: We were assuming Christianity after your suggestion in #480. And apparently you know what is right and wrong. Otherwise you wouldn’t have been offended. So in a way, I understand your anger perfectly. But why did I say these words then? (At least not in order to offend you, Steve.) You use that ethical standard as if it was in the air like oxygen is. And at the same time you dismiss that oxygen and call it hydrogen because that suits your understanding of life better. I don’t mind you using oxygen (a full set of Ethics Christianity). But I don’t like you calling it hydrogen (some sort of common sense ethics). Imagine I would be choking and you drive me to the hospital. Imagine further the deadly scenery if you would tell the doctor that I’m in desperate need of – hydrogen! (And you would exactly know what I would have needed, but you would have forgotten the right word for “oxygen”.) This is half the answer to your question. The other half is: I want you to know what you are presupposing all the time – like the oxygen in the air.
SteveG (#515): “YOU keep speaking as if evolution were some sort of philosophy. It is not. A person can understand and acception evolution as a description of biological life while holding any of a number of philosophical/theological views.”
E.D. Ott: Good, I agree with you, Steve. Evolution is not some sort of philosophy. Could we agree on this, that it is a model to describe biological life?
If so, I wonder what the hassle was about when Erasmus long ago didn’t want to allow for worldviews. At least, we both seem to agree now that evolution comes with glasses (a number of philosophical/theological views). This brings us back to the hotel room.
SteveG: To say an “evolutionist” is synonymous with a specifc philosophy is a fallacy. You are (deliberately? ignorantly? you tell me) conflating an acceptance of science with the embracing of a particular moral viewpoint.
E.D. Ott: I tell you. Didn’t you just some lines ago make the statement that evolution is “a description of biological life while holding any of a number of philosophical/theological views”? So you said yourself that evolution comes with something. It is Evolution plus x. To be sure, x can’t be sound Christianity because the Bible says everything was created in 6 days. What is x then? X is ultimately the denial of Christianity. And according to Christianity this IS an immoral viewpoint.
SteveG: I will formulate a longer response when I have more time, but for now I will just give you a chance to reformulate yours after clearing up this misconception of yours.
E.D. Ott: I may have a misconception of evolution. I am thankful for your patience and your further explanations, Steve. But if you allow me saying, you also have a blue-eyed misconception of evolution. You elaborate on a model that excludes the bottle of red wine in the hotel room.
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If you define christianity in such a way that it is falsifiable, then this is what the model suggests. to not define it in such a way is ultimately a decision to believe it no matter what the evidence suggests, which is a far different sort of animal from suggesting that the evidence supports christianity.
this dishonest equivocation is at the root of your presuppositional argument.
at some point, empiricism matters. this is the way you live your life, and you are being inconsistent when you draw a line in the sand and claim that empiricism does not apply here.
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E.D. Ott: I tell you. Didn’t you just some lines ago make the statement that evolution is “a description of biological life while holding any of a number of philosophical/theological views”? So you said yourself that evolution comes with something. It is Evolution plus x. To be sure, x can’t be sound Christianity because the Bible says everything was created in 6 days. What is x then? X is ultimately the denial of Christianity. And according to Christianity this IS an immoral viewpoint.
This is like saying a ham sandwich “comes with” some kind of automobile.
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To the sinner in #517 – Yes indeed you did fess up for all of us under the Christian assumption – ’twas Saltdog who seemed to say otherwise about himself, and about whom my comment was clearly directed.
…sound Christianity because the Bible says everything was created in 6 days.
Literal naive fundemantalism is not “sound”, Christian or otherwise.
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er “fundamentalism” … (typo)
I’ve been glib Ott, but I’ve also been “there” as a 70’s Jesus freak who not only believed it but converted a small roomful of young people to the literal Adam-fall/Jesus-saved paradigm.
But the Genesis myth is contradicted by reality, so either you must interpret it metaphorically (as do non-evangelical forms of Christianity), or reject it altogether, or go into some form of reality denial (as we’ve seen in abundance here).
The first two options are rational and not at all at odds with science. The last is sheer lunacy and delusion.
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Spinoza
“The last is sheer lunacy and delusion.”
This is true. It is also true that it is internally consistent, and I have had no quarrel with this claim, because I see it as trivial. The position argued for by Saul and ED is but one of an infinite number of internally consistent views that are not externally consistent with reality. The move to anti-realism, for ED and Saul, is at the seam between internal and external consistence. Saul, and it appears ED as well, deny that external consistence is meaningful.
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Importantly they make this move by arguing that if the words of gods be right, it is impossible for the word of gods to be wrong. therefore any sense data that suggest the words of gods be wrong must necessarily be predicated on faulty premises. a boring tautology that leads to a general catatony.
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#524 – Strictly speaking that’s their philosophical position true enough, but I also detect an element of confusion in SALT/Ott’s rejection of empiricism that may well be a direct product of “scientific creationism.” The mis-logic and false reasoning in works like the “Gensis Flood” might well lead one to conclude that scientific truth about the geologic past (for instance) is unknowable and that all theories about it are equally arbitrary (since the “Genesis Flood” is an “interpretation” not connected in any way to the facts!). Rather than actually embracing so-called “creation science,” it looks like SALT has chosen anti-science. Hard not to sympathize with that on some level, eh?
But I can’t help but feel an even stronger sense of indignation toward creation-science liars that would so turn the “faithful” off to science and nature altogether, making creation-deniers out of creationists.
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ERASMUS at #507: I’d say you have demonstrated the solipcist position fairly well.
ASALTYDOG: You say all kinds of things, which are consistently either ridiculous or false. Usually they are both. As I deny that position, you must be speaking again of someone else. That’s a judgment of charity.
ERASMUS: Now, since you object to the possibility that anything can be known at all (particularly to ‘knowledge’ in the objective sense) then you have effectively painted your own windows shut.
ASALTYDOG: I most certainly did not object or do any such thing. Wrong guy.
ERASMUS: You raise these epistemological issues with my account, and I’ll cheerfully grant you that in my view we have no guide other than personal empirical experience.
ASALTYDOG: Some people walk cheerfully to the gallows. Whatever. The important thing is to be the last one who cheers. So that’s what you believe, your view? Tell me, what empirical experience told you that you should have no guide other than personal empirical experience?
ERASMUS: the difference between your view and reality is that you don’t have any evidence for your claims that is available to inspection.
ASALTYDOG: I do. You systematically refuse to address that fact.
ERASMUS: You have presumptions, but they are not based on evidence.
ASALTYDOG: Yes they are. You keep on misrepresenting my position.
ERASMUS: You have nothing to show for why you choose to believe X, in the face of all contrary evidence, but on a personal whim to believe X instead of Y. fare thee well.
ASALTYDOG: False again. I have repeatedly explained that all creation points to God. I said over and over again that faith in the Triune God is the necessary precondition for the intelligibility of human experience: ethics, science, logic. Even humor. I believe in the Triune God because to refuse to do so is madness. I believe in the Triune God because everybody does — I just want to be outspoken and honest about it. I believe in the Triune God because all creation is evidence for Him. I believe the Word of the Triune God because it would be arrogant, evil, ungrateful, and irrational for me to refuse to do so. So much for your falsehood that I have “nothing to show” for why I believe in God. I know you will foolishly go ahead and dismiss all these reasons as “nothing”, but that is only because you insanely refuse to consider these reasons compelling enough to make you change your mind and start believing in God as well. But even if it were false that your unbelief is culpable, it is still a lie to say that I don’t have reasons for my faith only because you remain unconvinced. Make a list of the reasons why you believe and love your mother. I doubt that I will find those reasons compelling enough for me to start believing and loving your mother as well, but I wouldn’t dare saying that you have “nothing to show” for why you believe and love your mother. I wouldn’t, because I believe that “liar” is more than a sound you make with your mouth.
ERASMUS: O obliviot, if one defines numbers in the necessary manner 2 + 2 = 5 every single time. The difference is that we all agree that we will use the coordinate system where 2 + 2 = 4. But it is as completely arbitrary as your presuppositions, except we don’t have any psychological pathos invested why we choose 4 over 5, as you do with your account. It is a convention. But your ontology denies particulars.
ASALTYDOG: A convention? What color are conventions? How much do they weigh? You cheerfully dismount your cheerful view that you “have no guide other than personal empirical experience” whenever it cheerfully suits you and you think no one is looking. So now we are cheerfully back to immaterial concepts. What empirical experience told you that there are such things as “conventions”? Moreover, if these are just pure arbitrary conventions, how come they seem to consistently match the external world? And if we chose them non-arbitrarily precisely because they match it, how do we know inductively that they do? After all, you “have no guide other than personal empirical experience”. And no, my ontology makes it possible to have particulars, the one and the many.
ERASMUS: Chewbacca:”This is consistent with his belief that we are just random, meaningless bags of stuff meaninglessly stumbling upon each other. I rest my case.” Reality: Of course, I have never ever ever ever ever said this. You’re a liar. Over and over. But don’t let that stop you, i heard every time you Lie For Him baby jesus passes a kidney stone into a poop diaper.
ASALTYDOG: And of course I have never ever ever ever ever said you said it. So there. If I’m a liar, so are you — the difference between us being that I don’t mean it as a compliment. You do profess to be an anti-theistic evolutionist. In lack of further evidence I believe it is not inappropriate to ascribe to you the beliefs of recognizable mainstream anti-theistic evolutionism. Furthermore, I have already summarized your position with similar and even more colorful language in #423: “I tell you what’s funny, Erasmus. Funny is a random, purposeless, worthless bag of meaningless, irrational dirt, lost in the vastity of a purely meaningless space, which pronounces the word “solipcism” with the look in its eye of someone who thinks he has made a point.” You did not correct me, so I assumed the description fits. More recently at #475 I likewise wrote: “And do you mean there’s something wrong about all these activities? Random bags of stuff stumbling upon each other, aren’t we?” Again you did not correct me, which again I would have probably interpreted as evidence that my characterization was fair if by this time I had given any thought to the possibility that perhaps it wasn’t, which I hadn’t, because I had no reason to anymore. So please correct me now if I got something wrong. What was the offending part? “We”? “Are”? “Just”? “Random”? “Meaningless”? “Bags”? “Of”? “Stuff”? “Meaninglessly”? “Stumbling”? “Upon”? “Each”? “Other”?
ERASMUS: Chewbacca:” I stick with Genesis because the assumptions beg the question.” Reality: No you don’t. More lies. You have formulated such a convoluted ontology that the statement “I’m going to the store for milk” is begging the question.
ASALTYDOG: This tells more about your failure to follow an argument than it does about my ontology. Careful readers will also notice once more your embarrassingly cheap and groundless accusations, and your legendary skill in missing the point and refusing to engage an argument. And calling me a liar has lost the sting after your explanation that this expression has for you mere acoustic and linguistic overtones, and it doesn’t involve anything as Christian as obligations to behave in a certain way, or, God forbid, sin. So I take it as a compliment, as it reminds me of the failure of your view to account for ethics.
ERASMUS: In your system, you don’t have any logical basis for supposing the argument that this is true since your three headed beast could very easily fool you into thinking you have gone to the store while you are truly in Hell, and only his faith and mercy (what color are faith and mercy? How much do they weigh?) . . .
ASALTYDOG: Faith and mercy are immaterial entities. And you probably mean faithfulness.
ERASMUS: . . . give you any reason to suppose that you are not really a brain in a vat or one of the non-elect.
ASALTYDOG: No amount of shamelessly blasphemous yelling and pitiful banging fists on the table can provide a spine to this comatosely pathetic argument masquerading as an internal critique of Christianity. Only God’s faith(fulness?) and mercy give me any reason to suppose I am not really a brain in a vat or one of the non-elect? You sound like SteveG, forever complaining that Christianity makes sense, while imagining he is raising some sort of rational objection against it. You could just as well dismiss the idea that Snow White was the first feature film by Walt Disney, since there’s only the fact that it comes first chronologically that gives people any reason to suppose his first movie wasn’t Pinocchio. Yeah, of course you can say that Snow White was the first Disney movie, but that’s only because it comes before the others. Yeah, of course you Christians can suppose you are not really a brain in a vat or one of the non-elect, but that’s only because of God’s faithfulness and mercy. Wow guys, my head almost exploded. And this from the guy who calls me Chewbacca. I’d rather let him call me however he wants, as long as he keeps showing he’s the real deal.
ERASMUS: When you deny empiricism, this is the result, O Fount-Of-Not-Knowing.
ASALTYDOG: Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don’t do that at all. Denying certain forms of empiricism is not at all the same thing as denying knowledge from experience, from sensory perception, from evidence, and from problem-solving. Once again, as a Christian I affirm these ways of gathering knowledge. I have never, ever denied this, and I have always, always affirmed it, in spite of your pitiful attempts to obliterate this fact. Indeed, I affirm that it is precisely by presupposing the existence of the Triune God that it is possible to establish the reliability of those sources of knowledge. What I deny is godless empiricism and pragmatism, where one thinks it is possible to reach reliable knowledge through these means autonomously, independently from God, and where this knowledge is supposedly freed from epistemological obligations and perhaps even foolishly used to attack God. It is this insane, self-destroying empiricism that as a Christian I deny, and the result is not inability to know through experience and evidence, but certainty to know through experience and evidence.
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STEVEG at #503:
STEVEG: Why not lie in the course of a debate to make your point appear stronger? Because if you “win” the debate on the basis of lying, you’ve won nothing. You won’t go to hell (or need divine forgiveness for it) but you’ve only wasted your time and the time of others trying to have a dialogue with you.
ASALTYDOG: What’s wrong with winning nothing? What’s wrong with wasting my time? What’s wrong with wasting the time of others trying to have a dialogue with me? What makes all these things wrong and bad? What obligation do I have to win? What obligation do I have not to waste my time? What obligation do I have not to waste the time of others trying to have a dialogue with me? Who says I have a duty to do these things? Do spiders have similar obligations? Lions? Gorillas? Oak trees? Rocks? Protons? And perhaps in order to win an argument I have to lie. Now what? Perhaps in order not to waste my time or somebody else’s time I have to lie. Now what? You are not arguing that lying is wrong. You are arguing that there is no difference at all between lying and telling the truth — only between what is convenient and what isn’t.
STEVEG: Why not lie to your boss and say you’re sick when you really just want a day off? Because if you get caught, you can erode the trust between you and your boss. If you get caught enough times (and how many is enough depends on your boss’s tolerance for it) you can lose your chance of getting promoted, or a pay raise, or even get fired. You won’t go to hell (or need divine forgiveness) for it, but you will suffer consequences.
ASALTYDOG: What’s wrong with eroding the trust between me and my boss? What’s wrong with losing my chance of getting promoted, or a pay raise, or even get fired? What’s wrong with suffering consequences? What obligation do I have not to erode the trust between me and my boss? What obligation do I have not to lose my chance of getting promoted, or a pay raise, or even get fired? What obligation do I have to avoid suffering consequences? And perhaps in order to get a promotion or a pay raise or to avoid getting fired I have to lie. Now what? You are not arguing that lying is wrong. You are arguing that there is no difference at all between lying and telling the truth — only between what gets me out of trouble and what doesn’t.
STEVEG: Why not lie to your wife and say you’re working late when you’re really having an affair with a co-worker? Because if you get caught, you can find yourself divorced and writing alimony checks. You won’t go to hell (or need divine forgiveness) for it, but you are betraying the trust of someone you supposedly love, and risking severe personal consequences.
ASALTYDOG: What obligation do I have not to divorce? Perhaps I want a divorce. What obligation do I have not to write alimony checks? Perhaps I am a rich man and I don’t care. What obligation do I have not to betray the trust of someone I supposedly love? Perhaps I don’t love her and I don’t care. Are you saying it is okay to cheat on and lie to my wife provided I am a rich man who hates his wife and wants a divorce? And perhaps it occurs to me that in order to preserve my marriage and avoid the risk of severe personal consequences and preserve the trust of my wife I have to lie to her. Now what? You are not arguing that lying is wrong. You are arguing that there is no difference at all between lying and telling the truth — only between efficient and inefficient ways to get what I want.
STEVEG: Lying and getting away with it makes you a deceitful person.
ASALTYDOG: What’s wrong with being a deceitful person? What’s a deceitful person? Is that bad? Why? What obligation do I have not to be a deceitful person? Are spiders deceitful? Are venus flytraps deceitful? Is that bad? What obligations do they have not to be deceitful? What makes me different?
STEVEG: Lying and getting caught causes you real trouble.
ASALTYDOG: Often telling the truth causes real trouble. Often telling the truth causes more real trouble than lying. In fact, it does almost always. If you disagree, you are unfamiliar with Dilbert. You are not arguing why lying is wrong. You are arguing that there is no difference at all between lying and telling the truth — only between efficient and inefficient ways to avoid real trouble. And everything in life causes some trouble. Are you contemplating suicide in order to avoid trouble?
STEVEG: At the very best, people will trust you less.
ASALTYDOG: What obligation do I have to get people to keep trusting me? After I have deceived, murdered and eaten the first trusting, unsuspecting child, he probably won’t trust me anymore, but that’s fine with me. The world is full of trusting children. I am a crocodile. Or a man. Does it make any difference? Perhaps in order to have people to keep trusting me I have to lie to them. I guess that’s the definition of “normal daily behavior”, in a nutshell, in most people’s lives. Now what? You are not arguing why lying is wrong. You are arguing that there is no difference at all between lying and telling the truth — only between efficient and inefficient ways to have people to keep trusting you.
STEVEG: At the worst, you can lose things you need (like your job and your marriage.)
ASALTYDOG: What obligation do I have not to lose my job and my marriage? Perhaps I want to lose them. Perhaps in order not to lose them I have to lie. Now what? You are not arguing why lying is wrong. You are arguing that there is no difference at all between lying and telling the truth — only between efficient and inefficient ways to not losing things you want.
STEVEG: All of these are pragmatic and practical reasons not to lie and none of them require the existence of any God at all, let alone the specific God of the Bible.
ASALTYDOG: Wrong. They are reasons to choose whatever means one finds more efficient in order to get what one wants.
STEVEG: Most people prefer to live in a society where they can count on other people to not steal their stuff, rape their daughters or murder their friends.
ASALTYDOG: Except for those who want to steal their stuff, rape their daughters and murder their friends. Not to speak of those who would need to lie in order to get what they want, which would include most everybody. What obligations do these people have not to engage in these activities? Most zebras would no doubt prefer to live in a prairie where there are no lions. That does not mean lions have obligations to leave the zebras alone or to move somewhere else. Do lions have an obligation to move somewhere else, or to let the zebras alone? You are not arguing why lying, stealing, raping and murdering are wrong. You are arguing that most people don’t like being deceived, robbed, raped, and murdered. Big deal.
STEVEG: In order to have such a society, most of us have to abide by rules intended to prevent those things and agree to punish those who violate them.
ASALTYDOG: There is no civil law against lying as such. Would you argue that there is therefore no obligation not to lie? As for civil laws, this is sheer rule by force. You are not arguing why those things are wrong. You are arguing that people want to protect themselves from trouble. It’s like the zebras evolve sharp, poisonous fangs, and will bite to death any lion who tries to come close. Or they hire elephants to protect them. That does not give an obligation to the lion to quit trying. The lion who succeeds in killing a zebra in spite of the zebra’s defense system, or in spite of the elephant police, has not violated any obligation of his own.
STEVEG: Fortunately, most people don’t want to do those things in the first place, and don’t require fear of divine displeasure to compel them.
ASALTYDOG: Most people don’t want to lie? Planet Earth calling Steve, please Steve respond, can you hear me Steve? And even for the other things, the question is not how many people want to do these things. The question is, even if only a single individual does these things, why would he still be doing something wrong. Lions after all have to feed their young too. What obligation do they have to quit accomplishing that task in the way they consider most efficient? You are not arguing why these things are wrong. You are arguing that some people don’t do them. Big deal.
Steve, thanks for having confirmed that your worldview cannot account for ethics.
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Steve, thanks for having confirmed that your worldview cannot account for ethics.
None of that has anything to do with my “worldview.” You asked, why not lie? I showed you some practical reasons not to lie apart from moral considerations.
Even if it’s not immoral for you to lie to your boss (I think it is, but even if it’s not), it’s usually a bad idea. If you don’t mind getting fired, ok, but for most people that’s an outcome they’d rather avoid.
If you don’t mind people not believing anything you say because you’re a known liar, ok. Most people like to be trusted.
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ASD incorrectly says: Yeah, of course you Christians can suppose you are not really a brain in a vat or one of the non-elect, but that’s only because of God’s faithfulness and mercy. Wow guys, my head almost exploded.
SteveG corrects: Yeah, of course you Christians can suppose you are not really a brain in a vat or one of the non-elect, but that’s only because of your belief in God’s faithfulness and mercy, an assumption that can’t be shown objectively. Wow guys, my head almost exploded.
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wow.
Chewbacca: “And of course I have never ever ever ever ever said you said it.”
Erasmus: You said it was my belief. I have never told you about my beliefs. You know this. Fairly simple. You are more than willing to lie about something rather than speak the truth.
Chewbacca: “So there. If I’m a liar, so are you — the difference between us being that I don’t mean it as a compliment. You do profess to be an anti-theistic evolutionist.”
Erasmus: Again liar. Where did I profess to be ‘an anti-theistic evolutionist?’ Hint, Liar: Nowhere.
Chewbacca: “In lack of further evidence I believe it is not inappropriate to ascribe to you the beliefs of recognizable mainstream anti-theistic evolutionism.”
Erasmus: Given that same logic I believe it is not inappropriate to ascribe to you the beliefs of unicornism, mainstream anti-carbon life form-ism, hitler was jesus-ism, fruit loops cure cancer-ism and blue equals red-ism. You are fundamentally incapable of dealing with arguments on their merits alone, O Denier. Wash your bowl.
Chewbacca; “You say all kinds of things, which are consistently either ridiculous or false. Usually they are both. As I deny that position, you must be speaking again of someone else. That’s a judgment of charity.”
Erasmus: Assertions without evidence bore me. You deny at your convenience, O Unprincipled One.
You absolutely did assert that anything can be known at all, for you denied that there is anything meaningful about our experience of the consistency of nature. You deny that my experience of keys falling downward can yield any knowledge about generalizations. Knowledge is a hierarchical system of generalization. You deny particulars as a consequence of your anti-realist presupposition. I don’t expect you to deal with his prima facie but instead you’ll likely quote jethro tull or huey lewis. Perhaps you might opt for a change and instead type a string of random text. Followed, of course, by your solipcist knee jerk plea for me to provide a justification why your answer is any different than any other answer. It is rather like dealing with the four year old child that wonders why about everything. If this is true then your last resort makes more sense, O Escapist.
Chewbacca: “And calling me a liar has lost the sting after your explanation that this expression has for you mere acoustic and linguistic overtones, and it doesn’t involve anything as Christian as obligations to behave in a certain way, or, God forbid, sin. So I take it as a compliment, as it reminds me of the failure of your view to account for ethics.”
Erasmus: It never had any sting for you, O Prevaricator, for you are Lying For Jesus. If you are dishonest enough to say that ‘obligations to behave in a certain way’ has anything to do with christianism then you are dishonest enough to do about anything. Ethics have already been accounted for: they are social conventions. They are not and have never been absolute: such ontologies are just wish fulfillment.
Chewbacca: “Faith and mercy are immaterial entities. And you probably mean faithfulness.”
Erasmus: this has zero information content whatsoever. but, like our father who art in heaven halloween by thy game, repeat it enough times and it sears the senses. you might call it a Tard Tolerance.
WRT Snow White, as I have already mentioned, there is an infinite number of internally consistent philosophies that are externally inconsistent. The fact that you have stumbled upon one of these is no great testament to anything other than your wish fulfillment. Your solution to the external inconsistency of your contrived anti-realism is that if cornered, the bible trumps reason.
Chewbacca: “Denying certain forms of empiricism is not at all the same thing as denying knowledge from experience, from sensory perception, from evidence, and from problem-solving. Once again, as a Christian I affirm these ways of gathering knowledge. I have never, ever denied this, and I have always, always affirmed it, in spite of your pitiful attempts to obliterate this fact. ”
Erasmus: Anyone who has read this thread knows that you are, again, being less than honest. Your statements imply that you are completely fine with this characterization of you, as you are a martyr for the baby jesus.
Chewbacca: ” Indeed, I affirm that it is precisely by presupposing the existence of the Triune God that it is possible to establish the reliability of those sources of knowledge”
Erasmus: Indeed, you have affirmed no such thing. You have simply asserted such a thing, and absolutely refused to demonstrate how this could be so. Indeed, when pressed you have resorted to a convoluted set of religious convictions masquerading as empirical entities.
And I expect no more from you than this: argument by assertion, chewbacca defense, a barrage of straw man non sequitors followed by tu quoque and is-ought convolutions. You are a study in logical fallacy.
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E.D. Ott at #511:
SteveG (#480)
E.D. Ott: Let us see by the end of this post, whether you are right, whether my reasoning fails.
SteveG: Let’s assume for a minute that Christianity is true and in fact is true in every particular believed by the literalist/fundamentalist.
E.D. Ott: Let’s see at what point the minute is over.
SteveG: This gives you a handy external reason to say Hitler was wrong to exterminate 6 million people.
E.D. Ott: And to be sure, if you didn’t presuppose Christianity being true – you would have a big problem in order to make guys like Hitler or Stalin be guilty of spending a day at the beach… Sorry, now I got something wrong. But the alert readers know what I am talking about.
But this is not so. If I were a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist I would have no problem finding Hitler or Stalin guilty of evil. If I were a Muslim or a Jew I could do it by appealing to a variation of the same God you appeal to. If I were a Buddhist I could point to the profound triumph of desire in their lives — a lust for power that led them to do great evil and placed them far from Nirvana.
Even if I were an atheist I could point to the grave disruption they caused in the world and the great harm not just to the individuals they murdered, but to everyone who had to live under their oppression, resist their invasions and sacrifice to fight them.
A Deist could argue that while the Deist God may not be directly involved in the affairs of man, he did create humanity with an inborn conscience that men like Hitler and Stalin violated in enormous measure.
Belief in the Christian triune God does indeed provide a sound moral ground for pronouncing them wrong, but it is hardly the only belief system that does.
SteveG: However, if you read it honestly, it just as easily gives you a handy external reason to say those that Hitler killed deserved death.
E.D. Ott: Actually, we ALL deserve death, if Christianity is true. Romans chapter 3.
And we all die. So that is a non-issue. The question is whether any of us deserve to be murdered, to die sooner than the natural course of our lives would account for.
SteveG: The Jews? Unsaved heretics. The homosexuals? God himself ordained death for them.
E.D. Ott: You are mixing up two different things being consistent within Christianity. Let’s clarify them first: God the Saviour and God the Judge. God (as Judge) has told us that we all fall short of the glory. We all, whether Jews or Gentiles! We all, whether homosexuals or not! Secondly, the situation as it is (we being ordained to die, as you wrote) has made God design a way out of death: By the substitutional death of His son Jesus Christ (the Saviour): “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (II. Cor 5:21). To make one other thing also still clear: God doesn’t delight in the death of His enemies. He says: “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” (Ezekiel 33:11)
Right. And if we were talking about the victims of Hitler and Stalin as being the “wicked” it might even be relevant.
But we’re not. We’re talking about them as being the victims of brutal oppression. So if they deserved not just to die but to be executed, as God the Judge ordained, then you suddenly have undermined your own basis for calling Hitler and Stalin evil.
SteveG: And even if Hitler committed grave sin in his murders, he could have confessed, repented and begged for God’s mercy in his final minutes, as the thief on the cross next to Jesus did in the Gospel According to Luke. The result: Hitler is in heaven, while the Christ-rejecting Jews and the unrepentant homosexuals are in hell.
E.D. Ott: I have been thinking a lot about this, too. Remember you assumed Christianity was true – for a minute. If so, then this is exactly the scenario. What we need to do is to repent of our sins, whatever the sins were! Think of Saul (I mean the real Saul, later known as Paul)! Also keep in mind that only God can see at our hearts. We don’t know whether all 6 million Jews rejected Christ.
If they were practicing Jews, they must have. We can assume that most of them did, if not all.
One little additional note only between you and me: Many people call Hitler an erratic maniac. Yet, Historians say that he wasn’t a fool at all. He had a clear and – we still assume Christianity, right? – evil vision and a goal right from the start. And he carried it out according to his plans. What I want to say is that this guy was so wicked, so evil that it sounds inconceivable to me that he confessed of his sins in his last moments. But if he did – then he’s one step ahead of you, Steve. Remember: Better late than never!
I agree, it’s unlikely that he did. But the point being, as you admit, IF he did — or if any evil person does — your belief system allows them entry into heaven. Meanwhile, a person who lives a gentle, loving life, harming none and doing good for many, but does not believe in Christ, burns in torment forever and ever, because the few sins he did inevitably commit remain unforgiven.
SteveG: Does that sound right to you?
E.D. Ott: Still assuming Christianity: Yes. Thankfully, God holds to His promises. But if I understand you between the lines, you are saying that it isn’t good that God holds to them, don’t you? If you want God to give up His promises – you don’t speak for Christianity anymore but for yourself, with an unsaved soul. You want me to side with you that in fact Christianity wasn’t true at all. Am I right? Maybe you didn’t plan this as a pit for me to fall down. But one of us must fall down here. Fullstop.
Indeed. You reach a logical contradiction on this point concerning the character of God.
Either your God does not want to save everyone, even though he could … OR, your God wants to save everyone but is not able to.
The usual response here is that God respects the free will of people to reject him. But that makes God less than perfectly loving. If your son wanted to become a bank robber, would you as his father respect his free will, or would you refuse to allow it? (If you answer that you would not have the power to refuse to allow it, remember that God DOES have the power.)
So which is it? Is God’s love imperfect, or is his power?
SteveG: Now, you commit a grave error in speaking of me as an “evolutionist” as if evolution were a religion. Evolution is nothing more than a description of biological life and how it works. To say an “evolutionist” can’t speak against Hitler is like saying a plumber can’t draw on his knowledge of plumbing to grow corn. The two things have no connection to each other.
E.D. Ott: I had been always wondering why the German didn’t resist Hitler’s plans. Now I see: They applied your Plumber Rule. And they really must have thought that they were all innocent. What if I even added that evolution is one cause for Hitler’s grave error? So to speak, he was misled by the concept of evolution. Or should I say he took advantage of it? Now what you say as an Evolutionist? As a matter of fact, you already give a hint in the following line…
The Theory of Evolution is not to blame for Hitler’s misusing some of its concepts. Hitler’s hatred of Jews grew out of his similar misuse of Christianity.
Hitler said: My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
Oh, and another group that Hitler targeted for extermination? Atheists.
You continue to confuse the acceptance of the science of evolution as necessarily including a lack of an ethical system. I assume you are operating on the assumption that if humans are just another form of animal we have no obligation to behave according to any higher principle. But nothing about evolution makes that necessary. Humans are animals biologically, but many people who are both religious and accept evolution hold that we are also unique as spiritual beings… that at some point in the evolution of man, God saw that we had reached the point of being able to be in spiritual communion with God and at that point, made us in his spiritual image.
This is a belief that the science can neither confirm nor deny.
SteveG: In fact, I as a human being can refute Hitler’s plans simply by drawing on my natural empathy to conclude that it’s wrong to exterminate a group of people because you’ve deemed them “inferior.”
E.D. Ott: Natural empathy? Didn’t we still assume Christianity, Steve? At least, I think we still should. When it namely comes to killing – that’s where the Bible’s got something to say. Just a few lines above you said that as an Evolutionist you can’t do more than describe biological life, meaning you run away from your Christian duty and you actually can’t make absolute ethical decisions anymore. So it would be good if we still assumed Christianity a bit longer. So it was about killing. The stakes are high as Jesus points out: “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.” (Matthew 5: 21-22) That passage doesn’t exclude plumbers, nor does it exclude Evolutionists. To be sure, Jesus means all of us.
Sure. But you (deliberately? ignorantly?) misunderstand the point. Evolution is not a philosophy. See above.
Of course and honestly, I am convinced that you can conclude from your conscience that Hitler’s plans were wrong. But would Mao and Stalin also agree with you and me? Actually, why should we take you or me as a believable authority here? Or why take society as a believable authority? Is infidelity justified by the green light the media give to it? Should we accept murder through a tiny little backdoor because some doctors want stem cells? We would be walking on very thin ice if it was up to us human beings to make decisions — on our natural empathy. To be sure, our natural empathy is corrupted to the core, as Christianity says. And you assumed Christianity to be right for this minute. Why agree with your corrupted natural empathy? Or why agree with mine? Or with Saddam Hussein’s? By the way, the Bible teaches that we all have a conscience in Romans chapter 2, but as we suppress God’s truth living in a condition of original sin, whose natural empathy is correct and right on target?
Still assuming Christianity, a Christian knows what is right and what is wrong. This doesn’t necessarily mean that a Christian wouldn’t sin. A Christian has a special responsibility: to make known God’s word and His promises. So I assume when you brought up what I call the Plumber Rule you must have thrown your Holy Bible – by mistake and generally too early – out of the window including all Christian assumptions. Now you claim my reasoning is false. I feel differently. You want to prove Christianity wrong by throwing the Bible out of the window.
I simply fear that you want me dead. Either you hit me dead with your Bible (as long as it is still indoors) or you want me to stand outside next to the window in the moment when you throw some heavy and deadly stuff.
A Jew also knows what is right and wrong. Minus the New Testament, he’s working from the same Scriptures you do. A Buddhist also knows what is right and wrong. He’s working from a different set of ideas but reaching similar conclusions that murdering people is wrong. Buddhists don’t have sin per se, but they do believe that some actions are in accord with nature and bring peace, and some are in discord and bring chaos.
One does need more than just materialism to have a morality that transcends the expediency of the moment, I agree. But that that necessarily be Christianity remains unproven.
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puppy dogs know what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’. but of course this is because they have had it reprimanded into them. you draw the parallels.
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SALTY OTT – all this to-ing and fro-ing about needing religion for morality and meaning and to avoid future holocausts is quite beside the point of whether or not the Bible is literally true or not. The Bible is not literally true, and neither is your flat-earth-Christian assumption. If you require this foundation for ethics and meaning, you build on sand.
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Steve (#531),
I appreciate your serious questions on the credibility of a Christian God and the problem of evil in the world.
Your statements, answers and questions require a bit more than hasty replies from my side. As I still have no credit cards (as I had lost my wallet – but thank you, guys, in case it was you who found it and took it back to the police station!) I would like to give you first the following article in which the author Greg Bahnsen elaborates on the general existence of both, God and evil – and for whom this is a headache in the first place. Unfortunately, you seem to have judged Him guilty already: You either kick God out of the general picture or you arrest Him and squeeze Him to the dock in order to give Him the death sentence for Him having being “unfair”, as you suggest (as if He exists). Be careful, though, that you don’t judge Him (for being unfair or for existing) before you have heard all the witnesses. Additionally, remember that the jurymen must make a decision, and the judge. You are but a lawyer (the prosecutor) in this trial.
I send this to you in case you are seriously interested in that issue and in case the thread REALLY will be closed in 37 hours as it is said at the moment:
http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa105.htm
I am not able to get back to your post immediately. Don’t you guys work at all? They probably need to stop the assembly line all the time when I sneak away writing…
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Spinoza (#533): “The Bible is not literally true, and neither is your flat-earth-Christian assumption.”
Where in the Bible can you read that the Earth is flat?
May I conclude from your vigorous statement that in case, you don’t find a single quote supporting your claim that the Bible IS literally true?
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E.D. Ott at #534: I send this to you in case you are seriously interested in that issue and in case the thread REALLY will be closed in 37 hours as it is said at the moment
This article was interesting, although it’s nothing new. But it’s not about what we were talking about. The article is about reconciling the problem of evil existing in a world presided over by a good God.
We weren’t talking about that. (I don’t consider that a problem really, it’s easily explained as the article shows.)
We were talking about whether belief specifically in the Christian God (as opposed to some other religious tradition or an ethical secular humanism) is necessary in order to have a meaningful ethical system, and what limits God’s ability to save, in standard Christian theology. We were also trying to dispel your confusion of science and philosophy.
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SteveG (#536): “We were also trying to dispel your confusion of science and philosophy.”
I have to stop the assembly line right here an check whether something’s broken after your thoughtless statement. I disagree with you seriously on my “confusion”, as you put it. We were trying to find out what “evolution” (NOT science) is. Also, I have offered some sort of definition which you didn’t object (#518).
Furthermore, you said: (#515) “To say an “evolutionist” is synonymous with a specifc philosophy is a fallacy. You are (deliberately? ignorantly? you tell me) conflating an acceptance of science with the embracing of a particular moral viewpoint.”
I made clear to you that if evolution comes with philophical/theological viewpoints (in the formula “evolution + X”), then rest assured X is not “Christianity” but “the denial of Christianity” – which whether you like it or not is according to Christianity an immoral viewpoint.
As I turn my back to you in order to run the assembly line you take out the knife. Personally, I don’t think that evolution and science are equivalent as much as we would agree that worldview and evolution aren’t equivalent. Yet, I didn’t so far accuse your confusion of evolution and worldview, which would be nonsense. But it was, just by the way, you who made a nice statement that namely a “person can understand and acception evolution as a description of biological life while holding any of a number of philosophical/theological views.” (#515)
If we go back to business now, if we are serious then actually you are having a problem. Which I somehow don’t accuse even though it IS a problem. When you say that evolution can come with a theological view then we bascially have the dilemma that evolution possibly is an immoral model even though you earlier accused me for “(deliberately? ignorantly? you tell me) conflating an acceptance of science with the embracing of a particular moral viewpoint.” Should we first dispel your confusion on the possibility of morality and evolution?
Nothing in my assembly line is yet broken. But if things continue this way I’ll send a bill for every broken item, okay?
If you hit the keyboard in order to write a post, I’d like you to remain fair – as you have tried throughout the whole thread. Were you bit by a dog or what?
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E.D. Ott at #537:
No knife intended, I assure you. Perhaps an honest misunderstanding?
In #537 you reiterated the point I was trying to address, when you said: I made clear to you that if evolution comes with philophical/theological viewpoints (in the formula “evolution + X”), then rest assured X is not “Christianity” but “the denial of Christianity” – which whether you like it or not is according to Christianity an immoral viewpoint.
I disagree with this on two counts.
1. Evolution does not “come with” any philosophical or theological viewpoint. Evolution describes a process. Evolution is like cheesemaking, in that the cheesemaker might be a Christian or a Jew or an atheist or a Shintoist and will make cheese of the same quality and quantity in all cases.
Similarly, a person who accepts evolution as the description of the process by which organisms change and have changed may be a Christian or a Jew or an atheist or a Shintoist as well. Which brings me to my second point of disagreement:
2. Evolution does NOT require the “denial of Christianity.” This is a lie. I do not believe you are a liar, but you have believed a lie someone else told you.
Evolution does require a non-literal understanding of the Genesis creation account, yes, so accepting evolution does require the denial of the Fundamentalist, Biblical literalist flavor of Christianity. But there are many, many Christians who have no trouble at all living their Christian faith and understanding the biological process of evolution.
I look forward to your responses to this and to #531, assuming they don’t close the post on us.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23261247/
New study on human evolution.
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Steve (#538): No knife intended, I assure you. Perhaps an honest misunderstanding?
E.D. Ott: Fine.
SteveG: In #537 you reiterated the point I was trying to address, when you said: ‘I made clear to you that if evolution comes with philophical/theological viewpoints (in the formula “evolution + X”), then rest assured X is not “Christianity” but “the denial of Christianity” – which whether you like it or not is according to Christianity an immoral viewpoint.’
I disagree with this on two counts.
1. Evolution does not “come with” any philosophical or theological viewpoint. Evolution describes a process. Evolution is like cheesemaking, in that the cheesemaker might be a Christian or a Jew or an atheist or a Shintoist and will make cheese of the same quality and quantity in all cases.
E.D Ott: I understand that you say so. And if this is the case with you, I tell you it is okay with me. It is not okay with God, though. The whole creation points to Him. Also cheesemaking, by the way!
Let’s say this was an interesting thread so far, many good comments… Let’s also suggest this thread gets a reward for being one of the most active threads about evolution in years. Each of us gets a special prize. But no word about SteveG, no word that he wrote most of the messages in this thread, no word that he was there from post #4 onwards. Would you be at least disappointed that you were forgotten? Now think it was you who didn’t only co-create a good thread but created the whole universe and who made known to the whole world what he has done.
So it hurts when you exclude Him from your model and hide behind a wall you name “neutral evolution”. I am confident that you don’t like me saying so. And you may strongly disagree with me. And you may this time really take out a knife. But we are inescapably either in God’s camp or in one of the endlessly many others.
SteveG: 2. Evolution does NOT require the “denial of Christianity.” This is a lie. I do not believe you are a liar, but you have believed a lie someone else told you.
E.D. Ott: Certainly, I agree that there is a lie somewhere. But let us see a bit more as you make a soft (but firm enough) withdrawal in the next line.
SteveG: Evolution does require a non-literal understanding of the Genesis creation account, yes, so accepting evolution does require the denial of the Fundamentalist, Biblical literalist flavor of Christianity. But there are many, many Christians who have no trouble at all living their Christian faith and understanding the biological process of evolution.
E.D. Ott: I can’t resist reiterating what you just said: “Evolution does require a non-literal understanding of the Genesis creation account, yes, so accepting evolution does require the denial of the Fundamentalist (…) Christianity”. Amen! This is exactly the point. Now you see that at this very point – and for you it may be narrow or invisible – evolution is equal to the denial of Christianity. For me the meaning of the whole world is here at stake. And also, at this very point, you’d be the liar.
Fundamentalist Christianity may sound like bomb throwing fools and radicals, but I am a Fundamentalist Christian, or simply in order to avoid the “Scotsman” a Christian. I believe that Christ rose after three literal days. I believe that everything came into existence in 6 literal days. Again, I would like to remind you of the fact that critical viewpoints within Evolutional theory don’t yet make you reconsider the whole theory. If some Christians, even the majority of the Christians believed an evolution process and Christianity can go together – then they make someone a liar. In case they lie: If you can live with their lie, this makes you be also a liar. Steve, don’t rely so much on quantities. And in case they really lie: Have you been fooled and are you left without your Saviour? In case you speak the truth: Then I’ll kick the bucket and that was life. There was no meaning in it. Why even write messages? Let’s get out — a bottle of red wine.
However, ultimately what is a Christian? Doesn’t a Christian believe what the Scripture says? Also, what is an Evolutionist? Doesn’t an Evolutionist believe in the theory of Evolution? Does it make the theory be more convincing if a majority of Evolutionists believed in old fashioned 6 day creation? I tell you these guys must be really “brilliant” Evolutionists.
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E.D. Ott at #540:
I understand that you say so. And if this is the case with you, I tell you it is okay with me. It is not okay with God, though. The whole creation points to Him. Also cheesemaking, by the way!
Let’s say this was an interesting thread so far, many good comments… Let’s also suggest this thread gets a reward for being one of the most active threads about evolution in years. Each of us gets a special prize. But no word about SteveG, no word that he wrote most of the messages in this thread, no word that he was there from post #4 onwards. Would you be at least disappointed that you were forgotten? Now think it was you who didn’t only co-create a good thread but created the whole universe and who made known to the whole world what he has done.
So it hurts when you exclude Him from your model and hide behind a wall you name “neutral evolution”. I am confident that you don’t like me saying so. And you may strongly disagree with me. And you may this time really take out a knife. But we are inescapably either in God’s camp or in one of the endlessly many others.
You really should read The Language of God, by Francis Collins. Your local library may have it.
Collins is a brilliant scientist. He led the Human Genome Project that, for the first time, mapped the human genome. He believes in evolution. And he also is a fervent evangelical Christian.
His book shows, in very plain layman’s language, how evolution not only does not conflict with his faith, it strengthens it. It does not deny or diminish God’s role in creation. To the contrary, it reveals and marvelous and complex life is in a way never understood before the past couple of centuries.
This is exactly the point. Now you see that at this very point – and for you it may be narrow or invisible – evolution is equal to the denial of Christianity. For me the meaning of the whole world is here at stake. And also, at this very point, you’d be the liar.
Fundamentalist Christianity may sound like bomb throwing fools and radicals, but I am a Fundamentalist Christian, or simply in order to avoid the “Scotsman” a Christian. I believe that Christ rose after three literal days. I believe that everything came into existence in 6 literal days.
OK, but you don’t have to. Belief in Jesus’s resurrection may be said to be foundational to Christianity. Belief is six literal days of Creation is not. And interestingly, it never has been.
St. Augustine, who lived from 354 to 430 AD, argued that the six days of Creation were not intended to be literal. He was wisely cautious about the danger of staking faith on the current state of knowledge because, he observed, as soon as a gap in knowledge is filled in, any belief in God that depends on the gap remaining unfilled tumbles.
This is the position in which you find yourself. The evidence supporting evolution is in and it is solid. But your theology refuses to allow you to consider it, so you must insist it isn’t so. It is the very definition of anti-intellectual.
Again, I would like to remind you of the fact that critical viewpoints within Evolutional theory don’t yet make you reconsider the whole theory. If some Christians, even the majority of the Christians believed an evolution process and Christianity can go together – then they make someone a liar.
No they don’t. They simply join the large number of people that you have to insist must be wrong because of your previously chosen belief and refusal to consider another way of looking at things.
It’s not about “quantities.” It’s about evidence from science that really is too strong to shrug off, for an honest seeker of truth.
Read Collins.
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#535 – I meant “flat-earth” as a metaphor. YEC’s believe a “flat-earth” version of Christianity – not where the Earth is literally held as flat – but a view that – like flat-earth beliefs – embraces equivalently false and long-disproven views of the Earth, it’s age, and the nature of life on it. You might as well believe the earth is flat, if you believe the Earth is 6-10,000 years old and that Evolution is not science, even though it is.
Your day apparently begins as does that of the Queen in Lewis’s Wonderland:
“There is no use trying,” said Alice, “one can’t believe impossible things.”
“I dare say you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for a half hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
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In case you speak the truth: Then I’ll kick the bucket and that was life. There was no meaning in it.
This is a false dichotomy – just because your theology is at odds with reality doesn’t mean that life has no meaning otherwise! It just means that you’ve put all your “purpose” eggs in one big fictitious basket.
There are other baskets.
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As an example of a “basket” I’m sure you’ll not choose, here’s atheist Dawkin’s source of meaning:
People frequently ask Richard Dawkins: “Why do you bother getting up in the morning if the meaning of life boils down to such a cruel pitiless fact, that we exist merely to help replicate a string of molecules?” As he puts it: “They say to me, how can you bear to be alive if everything is so cold and empty and pointless? Well, at an academic level I think it is – but that doesn’t mean you can live your life like that. One answer is that I feel privileged to be allowed to understand why the world exists, and why I exist, and I want to share it with other people.” Dawkins’ new book, Unweaving The Rainbow, to be published later this month, is billed as an attempt to answer the ‘why get up?’ question, and indeed the first couple of chapters do just that, arguing that scientific discovery has a compelling, almost poetic impact on the imagination.
“It’s about why I think science is one of the supreme things that makes life worth living,” he says. “We are fantastically privileged to exist at all, but then we also have the privilege of understanding this beautiful world in which we find ourselves. that should make us all the more eager to soak up as much as we possibly can of understanding our world and our place in it before we die.” Or, as the book puts it: “Mysteries do not lose their poetry when solved. Quite the contrary: the solution often turns out more beautiful than the puzzle… ” In making this case Dawkins betrays all his rhetorical genius, and his faintly naive sense of everyday folk. He brilliantly berates those of us (all of us, probably) who succumb to the “anaesthetic of familiarity,” by which he means allowing yourself to stop noticing that the world around you is coruscating with wonder. But he also shows how little he understands common humanity: “Just think,” he enthuses, “instead of reading the football results you can read about distant galaxies!” As if one precludes the other.
But beyond that – there are many solutions of “faith” that don’t demand that you relinquish empirical messages of creation! For example:
Thank God for Evolution
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SPINOZA (#498): “ASaltyDog at #495: You don’t understand the concept of the burden of proof.” Uh … let’s see … Isn’t that where anybody who makes outrageous claims contradicted by loads of empirical evidence better have a really good reason?!
ASALTYDOG: No. But an example is available for free inside the post you wrote and to which I was replying.
SPINOZA (#498): E.g., If a YEC such as yourself were to claim that nearly all the fossil record was laid down in a year by a global flood – despite all evidence to the contrary – it’s up to them to show compelling physical evidence for the claim.
ASALTYDOG: I have made absolutely no claims at all about that. That may have been what happened, it would be certainly consistent with the Bible, it does have a prima facie general plausibility in my mind, I have not heard any compelling non-circular reasons why it cannot possibly have happened in this general way, but the Bible does not demand that I affirm it. What compelling, non-circular, non-question-begging, physical evidence have you shown for your outrageous, lunatic, reality-denying claims?
SPINOZA (#498): Your idea of “burden of proof” seems to be that it’s never yours, since reality doesn’t exist. That’s – how shall we say – idiosyncratic at best.
ASALTYDOG: Reality what? I don’t know what you are talking about. The burden of proof is mine when it’s mine, and it’s yours when it’s yours. And while we are at it, do you believe the burden of proof carries an obligation? On what grounds?
SPINOZA (#498): To criticize well-established scientific results while never answering for your own fundamentalist, superstitious beliefs is just sheer cowardice and confirms that you have no evidence for your belief – just denial of reality.
ASALTYDOG: To criticize well-established scientific results while never answering for your own fundamentalist, superstitious beliefs is just sheer cowardice and confirms that you have no evidence for your belief – just denial of reality. And I did answer.
SPINOZA (#504): “ASaltyDog to SteveG at #502: This is not different from saying that the preservation of the spiral shape in galaxies is evidence that galaxies cannot be billions of years old,’ Spiral shape is a density-wave pattern with a speed different from the orbiting stars – the “Windup” problem is a pseudo-problem. Doppler measurements of gas in galaxies prove this, and computer simulations reproduce the “density wave” patterns. This argument is a joke to professional astronomers. I know. I am one.
ASALTYDOG: I like the sound my points make when professional astronomers (all rise!) professionally enter the room and professionally miss them entirely as they very professionally try to catch them. Sir, evolutionists didn’t surrender to reality and become creationists when they first heard these things about galaxies and comets. And professional astronomers are good at coming up with jokes, I concede that. The problem is that then, they don’t seem to get them.
SPINOZA (#504): “ASaltyDog to SteveG at #502: or saying that the rate of disintegration of comets shows the Solar System cannot be more than a few thousand years old.” That one’s really dumb – Kuiper Belt Objects prove what was already known from cometary orbits – there is a large population of cometary nuclei out of reach of the sun where they easily last billions of years. Cometary nuclei are occasionally jostled into near-solar orbits, however, where they do indeed disintegrate in a few thousand years (meteor showers are often the result); but this is of NO RELEVANCE to the age of the solar system.
ASALTYDOG: And what is of relevance to the age of the solar system is the fact that it’s time some professional astronomers with attention span shorter than that of Kuiper Belt Objects just sit down, actually read what their opponents have written, and then professionally shut up, instead of regurgitating nonsense about orbits, knowledge and proof.
SPINOZA (#504): Your statements are not just an alternate interpretation based on a YE assumption – they are WRONG! Not because they contradict evolution – but because they contain assumptions (pattern speed confused with velocity; cometary source from inside the solar system) that disagree with astronomical observations.
ASALTYDOG: Someone please stop Spinoza. I suggest we shoot him with tranquilizer darts on his neck. “Not because they contradict evolution – but because they contain assumptions . . . that disagree with astronomical observations.” Yeah. Because if they agreed with astronomical observations you wouldn’t mind if they contradicted the evolutionary timescale, would you? And this is exactly the reason why it is a well-known historical fact in the science of the XX century that the famous Dutch astronomer Jan Oort, during his studies on comets, was forced by Reality in 1950 to abandon his evolutionism and to become a young-earth creationist. Oort was baptized in a small church in Rotterdam, and his conversion spearheaded a similarly Reality-induced mass conversion in the academic world of science from evolutionism to young-earth creationism that lasted until 1992. In that year, just a couple of months before he died, Oort heard of the discovery of the first Kuiper Belt Object. Reality therefore forced the old astronomer to reconsider his previous conversion to creationism, and he died a convinced evolutionist. The academic world of science was likewise forced to bow down to Reality and followed Oort in accepting once again evolutionism as the only non-lunatic alternative for self-respecting men and women of science. And this brings us back to the present day, when the academic world of science is patiently waiting for Reality to change her mind again, ready as ever to switch boats at her whim.
SPINOZA (#506): “ASaltyDog: A particular fallible assumption-charged interpretation of the observed evidence appears to contradict Genesis.” Your adherence to YEC views in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is comparable to the act of jumping off a 20-story building because you consider gravity to be a “fallible assumption-charged interpretation of the observed evidence.” But I expect you don’t realize this, because you have shied away from any and all exposure to real science (especially geology!) and have, instead, lapped up the cultic utterances of deranged YEC liars.
ASALTYDOG: Your adherence to evolutionary views in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is comparable to the act of jumping off a 20-story building because you consider gravity to be a “fallible assumption-charged interpretation of the observed evidence.” But I expect you don’t realize this, because you have shied away from any and all exposure to real science (especially geology!) and have, instead, lapped up the cultic utterances of deranged evolutionist liars.
SPINOZA (#512): “Ott: We are sinners.” Except for saltdog who claims that the fact he is “no longer in [his] sins” proves young earth creationism. This, then, is the conceit of evangelicalism – to claim on the one hand the fallen nature of all humanity, and then to claim their unique and special emancipation from it. To go further and use this puffed up claim as empirical evidence of anything is beyond the pale!
ASALTYDOG: Folks, believe it or not, but there are rumors (#522) that this brilliant and reliable theologian is the same fellow who allegedly was a “Jesus freak” in the 70s, and who “converted” a “small roomful” of “young people” to the “literal Adam-fall/Jesus-saved paradigm.” I say it’s a good thing that this former Jesus freak is not going around anymore in small rooms in the name of Jesus converting anybody. Sir, now that your abysmal ignorance of Christian theology is on display for the whole world to see, you can go back and read what I actually said. Then please do come back here and continue making a fool out of yourself for our entertainment. I’ll call some friends, we’ll sit down right here, and I’ll get the popcorn ready.
SPINOZA (#522): the Genesis myth is contradicted by reality, so either you must interpret it metaphorically (as do non-evangelical forms of Christianity), or reject it altogether, or go into some form of reality denial (as we’ve seen in abundance here). The first two options are rational and not at all at odds with science. The last is sheer lunacy and delusion.
ASALTYDOG: This is one cool piece of brainwashing propaganda. It works best if you pour gasoline down the throat of your opponent while you twist his thumbs and whip him on the back, until he will say “Okay”.
SPINOZA (#525): But I can’t help but feel an even stronger sense of indignation toward creation-science liars that would so turn the “faithful” off to science and nature altogether, making creation-deniers out of creationists.
ASALTYDOG: Your sense of indignation toward liars is sheer lunacy and delusion.
SPINOZA (#533): all this to-ing and fro-ing about needing religion for morality and meaning and to avoid future holocausts is quite beside the point of whether or not the Bible is literally true or not. The Bible is not literally true, and neither is your flat-earth-Christian assumption. If you require this foundation for ethics and meaning, you build on sand.
ASALTYDOG: No, not the gasoline again! Gurgle gurgle . . . okhay, okahyy! . . . gurgle.
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STEVE at #528:
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ASALTYDOG at #527: Steve, thanks for having confirmed that your worldview cannot account for ethics.
STEVEG at #528: None of that has anything to do with my “worldview.” You asked, why not lie? I showed you some practical reasons not to lie apart from moral considerations.
ASALTYDOG: Please. You must be kidding.
Apart from moral considerations?
I have been asking you for weeks to provide, from within your antichristian worldview, a rationale for ethics. You always refused. Now suddenly you come out with a post (#503) that begins with these words: “The canine [i.e., me] repeatedly demands to know why it’s wrong to lie.” Then you set up three scenarios each beginning with the words “Why not lie…?”. You answer each time with “Because…”. In my reply (#527), I explain to you why your post is a colossal failure to deliver what I requested. By your inability to deliver, you show that your antichristian worldview is incapable to justify ethics. Now you have the courage to reply that you didn’t even try. “What, you thought I was going to provide a justification for ethics? Oh, I see, but you know I only meant to entertain you.”
Well, Steve, considering you have been under heavy napalm bombing for weeks (something even your post acknowledges), why you would want to come out of your secret hiding place in the woods and waste everybody’s time in this way is completely inexplicable — unless you, unwilling to concede a debate you have clearly lost, are trying on purpose to keep sidestepping the issues and “keep missing the point”, in the hope my patience will run out and I give up with the hunt.
“None of that has anything to do with my “worldview.””
But then, with all respect, who cares about it? Instead of attacking me, you build straw men and attack them. And instead of defending yourself from my attacks, you pretend you talk for The American People or your postman or something. You are spineless when you attack and you are spineless when you defend.
“You asked, why not lie?”
You equivocate. I asked you what’s wrong with lying, not why people lie. As I told you before (#345): “Once again: not cause, Steve: Warrant. Repeat after me: Warrant. Justification. If there is no justification for them, ethics, science and logic are gone.” When you wrote “the canine repeatedly demands to know why it’s wrong to lie”, that is also already ambiguous. You can easily equivocate. And you promptly do: “Why not lie?” And then you go ahead and talk about motivations. That’s a red herring. And it’s a red herring that actually goes on to confirm that you don’t have a basis for ethics. So staying out of trouble provides a good reason why you better not lie. But depending on the circumstances you could just as well say the opposite: staying out of trouble provides a good reason why you better lie. This shows that the red herring of motivation, which you are trying to camouflage and smuggle as a justification of ethics, is actually ethically indifferent. As I said, you are not providing a basis for ethics. You are telling us that people often do whatever it takes (not lying, but also lying; not stealing, but also stealing; not murdering, but also murdering) to get what they want or stay out of trouble. The concept of ethical obligation is completely unjustified and unwarranted in your position.
“I showed you some practical reasons not to lie apart from moral considerations.”
But those “practical reasons” are not at all what I am asking and what you must provide. You do not account for ethics by pointing a finger and saying, “Look what that guy is doing right now! He is probably doing that because he doesn’t want trouble.” What you need to provide is not the psychological reason or motivation why people end up lying or not lying. You need to provide the basis for saying that lying is bad. Not a bad idea, but bad. Wrong. Wicked. You have hardly accomplished this if your rationale (”son, stay out of trouble”) can just as well prove that telling the truth may be wrong.
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STEVEG: Even if it’s not immoral for you to lie to your boss (I think it is, but even if it’s not), it’s usually a bad idea. If you don’t mind getting fired, ok, but for most people that’s an outcome they’d rather avoid.
ASALTYDOG: There you go again. A bad idea? Steve, I don’t want to be amused or entertained. If you do have a basis for ethics, tell us what it is. If you don’t have a basis for ethics, stop doing these linguistic gyrations and semantic gymnastics, stop running away, and turn yourself in now.
STEVEG: If you don’t mind people not believing anything you say because you’re a known liar, ok. Most people like to be trusted.
ASALTYDOG: You are again begging the question. You are assuming that being a liar is a bad, wrong, evil, wicked thing. I am asking you to prove it — from your antichristian position. I know that people think e.g. lying is a wrong, bad, wicked thing. What I am asking is what worldview provides the preconditions for calling it a bad, wrong, evil, wicked thing. What must be the case, in order for lying to be a wicked thing? What worldview provides that “what”? Can your antichristian worldview provide it? If it can, then prove to me from your antichristian worldview that e.g. lying is a bad, wrong, evil, wicked thing. If it cannot, then your antichristian worldview does not have a basis for ethics, and it cannot warrant a distinction between things that are ethically virtuous and things that are ethically wicked. In other words, your antichristian worldview destroys ethics. Of course most people think e.g. lying is a bad, wrong, evil, wicked thing. I am asking whether these people can afford making these judgments, given the assumptions about reality provided by the worldviews they claim as their own. I am asking whether these people are hypocrites. I am asking what assumptions these people are secretly and implictly making about reality when they make those ethical judgments. I am asking from what worldview they have stolen those assumptions, since they are not coming out of the antichristian worldviews they claim as their own. I am asking why they don’t stop their hypocrisy and turn in faith to Jesus Christ.
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Since this is relevant to the discussion you are having with me, I will address some things you wrote to Mr. Ott.
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STEVEG to Mr Ott at #538: Evolution does NOT require the “denial of Christianity.” . . . Evolution does require a non-literal understanding of the Genesis creation account, yes, so accepting evolution does require the denial of the Fundamentalist, Biblical literalist flavor of Christianity. But there are many, many Christians who have no trouble at all living their Christian faith and understanding the biological process of evolution.
ASALTYDOG: First, understanding the biological process of evolution does not make one an evolutionist. You probably mean “believing”. Second, there is a whole bunch of people who claim they are Christians but who have no real understanding of what that means, just like there is a whole bunch of people who claim they are evolutionists but who have no real understanding of what that means. So to point out that somebody who calls himself a Christian also believes in evolution does not prove that it’s okay for a consistent Christian to believe in evolution, just like to point out that somebody who calls himself an evolutionist also believes in the biblical Flood does not prove that it’s okay for a consistent evolutionist to believe in the biblical Flood.
Third, there is a whole bunch of Christians who have no trouble at all with a whole lot of issues that should give them trouble. It’s question begging to say that holding a certain position is okay for a Christian on the grounds that it does not give him trouble. That’s not what you would say about a self-professed evolutionist who believes in the biblical Flood. You wouldn’t say that believing in the biblical Flood is okay for an evolutionist on the grounds that it doesn’t give him trouble. You are making “not having trouble” the criterion for deciding that a certain position or belief is acceptable for a Christian, just as you once foolishly tried to explain that lying is bad because it “gives trouble”. But now you are making an assessment about a criterion which is internal to Christianity. You cannot import criteria which are external to it when you tell us what constitutes an acceptable and consistent position for us. Your argument is not complete until you prove with an appeal to Christianity’s own source of authority that “not having trouble” is the criterion for deciding that a certain position or belief is acceptable for a Christian. To my knowledge, in spite of disagreeing on a huge number of issues, no Christian body, denomination, or church has ever officially affirmed that “not having trouble” is the criterion for deciding that a certain position or belief is acceptable for a Christian. So unless you show this, you have only told us that there are lots of inconsistent Christians around, which is something most people know already.
STEVEG to Mr Ott at #541: St. Augustine, who lived from 354 to 430 AD, argued that the six days of Creation were not intended to be literal. He was wisely cautious about the danger of staking faith on the current state of knowledge because, he observed, as soon as a gap in knowledge is filled in, any belief in God that depends on the gap remaining unfilled tumbles.
ASALTYDOG: Augustine did not argue that a “day” in Genesis is a longer period of time than a 24 hour day, but ventured to suggest that it was a shorter one. He believed that the world is six thousand years old.
STEVEG to Mr Ott at #541: Collins is a brilliant scientist. He led the Human Genome Project that, for the first time, mapped the human genome. He believes in evolution. And he also is a fervent evangelical Christian. His book shows, in very plain layman’s language, how evolution not only does not conflict with his faith, it strengthens it. It does not deny or diminish God’s role in creation. To the contrary, it reveals and marvelous and complex life is in a way never understood before the past couple of centuries.
ASALTYDOG: Collins may be a brilliant scientist, but his exegesis of the Bible is laughable and clearly forced to serve his previous committment to evolution. That is the crucial giveaway of Collins’ book. It doesn’t matter what he says about science. It doesn’t matter what he imagines the truth of evolution would unlock about God’s wisdom. How fervent a Christian he is, and how honest, is revealed not in your recommendation but in the way he handles Christianity’s ultimate source of authority. Historically the church has interpreted the Bible as affirming a recent creation. Only after Darwin Christians started to invent ways to force the Bible to agree with what secular science was saying. This sad trend was rightly denounced by many evolutionists as dishonest. And Steve, why is it important to you that the Bible may be shown to be consistent with evolution? Why is it important to you that Christians believe in evolution? To have one more fellow evolutionist joining your team is more important to you than seeing honesty in a man?
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STEVEG to Mr Ott at #531: If I were a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist I would have no problem finding Hitler or Stalin guilty of evil. If I were a Muslim or a Jew I could do it by appealing to a variation of the same God you appeal to.
ASALTYDOG: You think you are taking these options seriously, but you aren’t taking them seriously enough. You are perilously close to having to convert to Islam or Judaism in order to preserve your rationality and the intelligibility of your human experience and still be able to avoid Jesus Christ. In fact, you have painted yourself in this corner, and I see no way out. Islam and Judaism are mere Christian heresies, and they disqualify themselves as viable positions by their internal inconsistency.
STEVEG: If I were a Buddhist I could point to the profound triumph of desire in their lives — a lust for power that led them to do great evil and placed them far from Nirvana.
ASALTYDOG: This assumes that they did do evil, which is what Buddhism needs to prove. What obligation does one have to be located at seventeen meters rather than forty-two meters from Nirvana? A presuppositional critique of Buddhism easily shows it to be internal inconsistent and utterly unable to provide the prerequisites for having science, ethics and logic. Steve, it’s useless to bring in other religions since you do grant that Christianity fits the bill as it is internally consistent and a viable alternative for justifying science, logic and ethics. But as I said before (#460), “the biblical position is intrinsically exclusivistic. Its viability and its self-consistency (which you grant) are inescapably based on its notorious drastic exclusivity with respect to other religions and worldviews. So if the biblical position fits the bill, it is the only position that fits the bill. Otherwise it wouldn’t fit the bill.”
STEVEG: Even if I were an atheist I could point to the grave disruption they [Hitler and Stalin] caused in the world and the great harm not just to the individuals they murdered, but to everyone who had to live under their oppression, resist their invasions and sacrifice to fight them.
ASALTYDOG: How would any of that be any different from a day at the beach? Volcanos cause great disruption. So do supernovas. Beavers cause floods. Lions hunt zebras. Spiders hunt flies. Stars twinkle. Rivers flow. Clouds drift by. Waves cover the beach. The sun shines. Stuff happens. So what? The obligation not to murder a Jew? What’s that?
STEVEG at #531: A Deist could argue that while the Deist God may not be directly involved in the affairs of man, he did create humanity with an inborn conscience that men like Hitler and Stalin violated in enormous measure.
ASALTYDOG; “Could” argue? Suppose you do argue. How do you know that this God exists? How do you know that this God created anything? How do you know that he created humanity? How do you know that he created humanity with an inborn conscience? What obligation do men like Hitler and Stalin have not to violate this thing you call conscience? Is conscience infallible? If so, why does a man following his conscience often find himself making the exact opposite ethical choice of another man who is following his conscience? How do you know that men like Hitler and Stalin have violated this thing you call their own conscience? If they didn’t who decides which is right between your conscience telling you Hitler and Stalin did something wicked and Hitler’s and Stalin’s conscience telling them they did the right thing? And if on the other hand conscience is not infallible, how does one know whether whatever his conscience says is reliable? How do you know that your conscience is right when it tells you Hitler and Stalin did something wicked? Again, how do you know that men like Hitler and Stalin have violated their own conscience? What happens to Hitler and Stalin now if they did violate their conscience? How does violating one’s own conscience in enormous measure differ from a day at the beach? Your ethical basis as a deist for saying Bill did something bad seems to be the following: “IF God exists and IF he created anything and IF he created mankind and IF he created mankind with an inborn conscience and IF Bill violated his conscience, and I feel he did IF my conscience is infallible, or IF it’s not infallible then IF my conscience is correct, and IF Bill has some kind of obligation to follow his conscience, and I have no way of knowing any of these things, THEN Bill did a bad thing. Except that first, as a deist I have no basis for logic, so I can’t even be sure of that. And second, even if I had a basis for logic and I had warrant for concluding from the previous argument that Bill did a bad thing, I have no way to tell how that would be any different from a day at the beach.” This is a brief summary of how wretched your position is.
Deism is a dead end, Steve. Forget it, and join us.
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Collins may be a brilliant scientist, but his exegesis of the Bible is laughable and clearly forced to serve his previous committment to evolution. That is the crucial giveaway of Collins’ book. It doesn’t matter what he says about science. It doesn’t matter what he imagines the truth of evolution would unlock about God’s wisdom. How fervent a Christian he is, and how honest, is revealed not in your recommendation but in the way he handles Christianity’s ultimate source of authority.
The problem is that, unlike you, when Collins talks about the science, he actually knows what he’s talking about.
You are consistent in your insane insistence that reality must be wrong because it contradicts ancient writings, but that doesn’t make it less insane.
Historically the church has interpreted the Bible as affirming a recent creation. Only after Darwin Christians started to invent ways to force the Bible to agree with what secular science was saying.
Not true at all. Many of the early church fathers, centuries before Darwin, understood that Genesis need not refer to literal days.
Here you’ll find information about some of them.
This sad trend was rightly denounced by many evolutionists as dishonest. And Steve, why is it important to you that the Bible may be shown to be consistent with evolution? Why is it important to you that Christians believe in evolution? To have one more fellow evolutionist joining your team is more important to you than seeing honesty in a man?
Honest ignorance is still ignorance.
My problem is: On one side, you have raving atheist lunatics such as Richard Dawkins insisting that evolution means there can be no God. On the other side, you have raving Creationist lunatics such as yourself insisting that God means there can be no evolution.
Both extremes are wrong, and they do a grave disservice to both science and faith by setting them up as adversaries when they need not be. The peace makers — those who can accept that both are sources of truth, just different kinds of truth — get caught in the crossfire coming from the extremes.
You and Richard Dawkins are very much alike. You’re both on the front lines of a totally stupidly unnecessary war.
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ASALTYDOG: I like the sound my points make when professional astronomers (all rise!) professionally enter the room and professionally miss them entirely as they very professionally try to catch them. Sir, evolutionists didn’t surrender to reality and become creationists when they first heard these things about galaxies and comets. And professional astronomers are good at coming up with jokes, I concede that. The problem is that then, they don’t seem to get them.
You know, you get misunderstood a lot. Everybody who responds to you seems to miss your points, misunderstand your meaning or misrepresent what you said.
Maybe you are making no sense? Just something to consider.
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Salty Dog:
In so many words (and there have been so many as to become nearly a blur of empty verbiage), you have demonstrated two things, and two things only: 1) That your understanding of the Bible doesn’t comport with scientific evidence, and 2) that when your understanding if the Bible conflicts with science, then science be damned.
This may work for you, but in order to convince anyone other than yourself of these you will need to demonstrate at the very least two more things: 1) That your understanding of the bible is correct on theological grounds, and 2) that the science of evolution is incorrect on scientific grounds. These are the realms of knowledge, of knowing, that we are dealing with. In short, you’ve failed. You assert both, but do little to prove either. For instance, you claim that your points are lost on astronomers but do nothing to show that you”re points amount to anything more than a capacity to blow raspberries in their faces. And you impugn the exegesis of a fellow like Collins without bothering to establish anything approaching evidence of why his approach is laughable.
When you accomplish these things (among others), your posts will possibly be taken more seriously.
Until then,
SG
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Salty Dog at #546 said: I have been asking you for weeks to provide, from within your antichristian worldview, a rationale for ethics. You always refused. Now suddenly you come out with a post (#503) that begins with these words: “The canine [i.e., me] repeatedly demands to know why it’s wrong to lie.” Then you set up three scenarios each beginning with the words “Why not lie…?”. You answer each time with “Because…”. In my reply (#527), I explain to you why your post is a colossal failure to deliver what I requested. By your inability to deliver, you show that your antichristian worldview is incapable to justify ethics. Now you have the courage to reply that you didn’t even try. “What, you thought I was going to provide a justification for ethics? Oh, I see, but you know I only meant to entertain you.”
My posts made exactly the point I intended them to: That having ethics does not depend on believing Christian theology.
Using lying as the specific example, I have shown two important things:
1. One can point to a metaphysical basis for believing lying to be morally wrong no matter which religious system is involved. A Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Hindu all have just as much theological grounding in that belief as the Christian.
2. In the absence of any religion at all, one can show lying to be, while not intrinsically wrong, usually a bad idea. (There may be cases where a lie is the better course. Go listen to the song “The Long Black Veil” for an example.)
That you can’t see the truth of what I said is your deficiency, not mine.
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Spinoza (#543),
E.D. Ott (#540): In case you speak the truth: Then I’ll kick the bucket and that was life. There was no meaning in it.
Spinoza: This is a false dichotomy – just because your theology is at odds with reality doesn’t mean that life has no meaning otherwise! It just means that you’ve put all your “purpose” eggs in one big fictitious basket.
E.D. Ott: Shoot, there are many baskets, you say? You say I should put my “purpose” eggs into many baskets? Into which baskets do you put your eggs?
No, Spinoza. The dichotomy was right on target. My Bible teaches: “If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord” (Romans 14:8). In other words, there is meaning in our life and even in our death. If that was wrong – where are we going according to you?
Spinoza: There are other baskets.
E.D. Ott: Yes, you just gave a hint. Other baskets? My kids will be delighted on Easter! And these baskets are…? Football? LSD? How do you know there are other baskets? Can these various baskets of yours all account for meaning? And can they all account for meaning simultaneously?
By the way, where exactly is my theology at odds with reality? Your self-confidence alone doesn’t yet prove the reality right.
Spinoza (earlier, #542): I meant “flat-earth” as a metaphor. YEC’s…
E.D. Ott: The Youth Employment Center?
Spinoza: … believe a “flat-earth” version of Christianity – not where the Earth is literally held as flat – but a view that – like flat-earth beliefs – embraces equivalently false and long-disproven views of the Earth, it’s age, and the nature of life on it. You might as well believe the earth is flat, if you believe the Earth is 6-10,000 years old and that Evolution is not science, even though it is.
E.D. Ott: Once you say “flat-earth”. Another time you say it is a metaphor. And you say it as if the Bible would ever teach such a thing, literally or metaphorically. It isn’t, Spinoza.
Therefore, I can’t take your attack seriously, flatly or metaphorically speaking. I am actually still waiting for you to prove the Bible wrong on that flat-Earth issue that you brought up. Your time is ticking away.
I do admit, Christians believe a lot of garbage. Let’s open their dirty plastic bag (it is just one, not many baskets) and have a look inside:
They believe that a man died for them in order to save them from eternal hell.
They believe that this man was the Son of God.
They believe that they didn’t deserve to be saved.
They believe in the truth of that one book that reveals the Story of this God.
They believe (hold back your laughter!) that –unless you turn to Him in repentence before you die — you burn in hell, too.
And they believe some other crap as well.
Yet, they (sheer consternation!) don’t believe in “flat-earth” jokes.
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STEVEG at #547, #548 and #550:
___
ASALTYDOG at #546: Historically the church has interpreted the Bible as affirming a recent creation. Only after Darwin Christians started to invent ways to force the Bible to agree with what secular science was saying.
STEVEG: Not true at all. Many of the early church fathers, centuries before Darwin, understood that Genesis need not refer to literal days. . . . You know, you get misunderstood a lot. Everybody who responds to you seems to miss your points, misunderstand your meaning or misrepresent what you said. Maybe you are making no sense? Just something to consider.
ASALTYDOG: So you are tired of my refrain that my opponents keep missing my points, eh? And so you smell a rat, right? You remind me of Inspector Clouseau. Whoever said anything about literal days? Careful readers have long since understood and shared my frustration with opponents like you.
___
STEVEG: Honest ignorance is still ignorance. My problem is: On one side, you have raving atheist lunatics such as Richard Dawkins insisting that evolution means there can be no God. On the other side, you have raving Creationist lunatics such as yourself insisting that God means there can be no evolution. Both extremes are wrong, and they do a grave disservice to both science and faith by setting them up as adversaries when they need not be. The peace makers — those who can accept that both are sources of truth, just different kinds of truth — get caught in the crossfire coming from the extremes. You and Richard Dawkins are very much alike. You’re both on the front lines of a totally stupidly unnecessary war.
ASALTYDOG: But wasn’t Spinoz… Oh, I see …. No, not again the gasoline! . . . gurgle gurgle . . . but why am I a raving lun… Whip! Ouch! . . . gurgle gurgle . . . but you haven’t engag. . . .gurgle gurgle . . . . but what about my . . . ouch! my thumbs! . . . gurgle gurgle
___
STEVEG: My posts made exactly the point I intended them to: That having ethics does not depend on believing Christian theology.
ASALTYDOG: This can only have been written by someone who completely ignored what I already wrote in response — like Steve’s terrier, but I don’t mean it couldn’t have been Steve himself. In which case listen, peacemaker, if you don’t want your plans for world peace to sound like something straight out of Lenin’s notebook, you need to do something more than banging your fist on the table, restating your points, and shooting the opposition in the backyard.
___
STEVE: Using lying as the specific example, I have shown two important things: 1. One can point to a metaphysical basis for believing lying to be morally wrong no matter which religious system is involved. A Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Hindu all have just as much theological grounding in that belief as the Christian. 2. In the absence of any religion at all, one can show lying to be, while not intrinsically wrong, usually a bad idea. (There may be cases where a lie is the better course. Go listen to the song “The Long Black Veil” for an example.) That you can’t see the truth of what I said is your deficiency, not mine.
ASALTYDOG: Well Steve, or possibly Steve’s terrier, since you don’t engage what I have written I have nothing to say, except laugh. My bullets go right through you, but you simply don’t notice, and keep marching on in your peacemaking efforts like a zombie from a Romero movie. Just like Wile E. Coyote, you keep running on, but you don’t realize you are floating in mid air. The kids are all laughing. It’s good and appropriate this forum ends in laughter. Malcolm Muggeridge said the theory of evolution will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Folks, I see no reason why we can’t start writing those books already.
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Chewbacca: ” So to point out that somebody who calls himself a Christian also believes in evolution does not prove that it’s okay for a consistent Christian to believe in evolution, just like to point out that somebody who calls himself an evolutionist also believes in the biblical Flood does not prove that it’s okay for a consistent evolutionist to believe in the biblical Flood.”
Erasmus: Tell that to ED Ott and the rest of your fellow travelers that use this fallacy regularly. I suspect, although I don’t care enough to examine your comments above, that you also commit this fallacy. Consistency would be too much to ask from someone who plays ontological silly buggers.
Chewbacca: “Your argument is not complete until you prove with an appeal to Christianity’s own source of authority that “not having trouble” is the criterion for deciding that a certain position or belief is acceptable for a Christian. ”
Erasmus: Your source of authority changes with the challenge presented to it. In a recent comment you appeal to geology to save your Last Thursdayist Young Earth Position. You are simply and boringly dishonest.
Chewbacca: “So unless you show this, you have only told us that there are lots of inconsistent Christians around, which is something most people know already.”
Erasmus: Exactly, O Dichotomot. To wit, you are an inconsistent Christian. And dishonest to boot. Your shell game of ‘why is that wrong’ is something for four year olds (why, daddy?) and fledgling cultists to find provocative. For you, it is rote dogmatic reflex calculated to protect your flimsy presumptions.
Chewbacca: “He believed that the world is six thousand years old.”
Erasmus: See my above reference to your inconsistent abuse of fallacious appeals to authority. Lincoln believed blacks were inferior, therefore democracy is flawed. Yawn.
Chewbacca: ” How fervent a Christian he is, and how honest, is revealed not in your recommendation but in the way he handles Christianity’s ultimate source of authority”
Erasmus: However foolish Collins is, and that is certainly a non-zero quantity (given his three waterfall account of transcendental walt whitman style of understanding the profundity of the trinity), your reference to ‘how he handles christianity’s ultimate source of authority’ is a tribute to your willingness to distort your own holy scripture to fit your presumptions. your schemata does not give any direction for adjucating such different interpretations of authority. As a good relativist, you know that all you have is an interpretation and that is why you place so much weight on your ontological silly bugger argument.
Chewbacca:”Islam and Judaism are mere Christian heresies, and they disqualify themselves as viable positions by their internal inconsistency.”
Erasmus: Amazing. This liar is now claiming that cults predating his own cult are heretical. Please sign me up for a subscription to your newsletter. There is nothing more internally inconsistent than the accounts of the genealogy of jesus or the disparate creation myths or the stories of king davids military conquests. Congrats! You have surpassed my low low low low low expectations for honest discourse! I now expect some whining metaphysical onanism about why should i expect any different from you. Simple, lying christianist: I don’t.
Chewbacca: “So if the biblical position fits the bill, it is the only position that fits the bill. Otherwise it wouldn’t fit the bill.”
Erasmus: Very well, that’s easy. It doesn’t. That is plainly obvious from the personal experience of most humans. That some humans feel the need to reify zeitgeists does not affirmatively argue for your mithra myth. You just want to be a member of a club.
Serious George, don’t forget Eagles Lyrics. This guy is a national treasure.
Chewbacca ends with : “Malcolm Muggeridge said the theory of evolution will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Folks, I see no reason why we can’t start writing those books already.”
Erasmus: So, fools say all sorts of things. You have said many. You deny your nose to deny your face. Fools have been saying this sort of thing for 150 years now. They have yet to offer anything other than this statement. Oh, and ontological silly solipcist buggerism that you are so enamored with. No wonder you are a literalist, you have this compartmentalization and denial thing down pat.
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Well Steve, or possibly Steve’s terrier, since you don’t engage what I have written I have nothing to say, except laugh.
Uh huh. Funny how every time I show you how you’re wrong, I never seem to have responded to what you now say you said.
Are you writing additional comments in invisible electronic ink? I can only respond to what I see here, as I do.
It must be hellish to be so terribly misunderstood all the time.
Tell me Salty Dog … when you laugh like that, do the nurses come to check your dosage of sedatives?
Islam and Judaism are mere Christian heresies, and they disqualify themselves as viable positions by their internal inconsistency.
You do know that Judaism predates Christianity, right? (That means it’s older than Christianity … hard for one religion to be a “heresy” of another one that didn’t exist for around 2,000 years before the newer one came into being. Jews say Christianity is a Jewish heresy, and they have the better claim.)
Tell me, what specifically is internally inconsistent about Judaism. Don’t just declare that it is. Show me, specifically, how it is.
What, precisely, does Judaism teach that is internally inconsistent?
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ASD: Your ethical basis as a deist for saying Bill did something bad seems to be the following: “IF God exists and IF he created anything and IF he created mankind and IF he created mankind with an inborn conscience and IF Bill violated his conscience, and I feel he did IF my conscience is infallible, or IF it’s not infallible then IF my conscience is correct, and IF Bill has some kind of obligation to follow his conscience, and I have no way of knowing any of these things, THEN Bill did a bad thing. Except that first, as a deist I have no basis for logic, so I can’t even be sure of that. And second, even if I had a basis for logic and I had warrant for concluding from the previous argument that Bill did a bad thing, I have no way to tell how that would be any different from a day at the beach.” This is a brief summary of how wretched your position is.
Your ethical basis as a fundamentalist for saying Bill did something bad seems to be the following: “Bill did a bad thing because the Bible says so. But that only matters IF the Bible is true and I don’t know that it is but I have to insist it is, EVEN WHEN it forces me to take positions that are ludicrous and laughable when measured against the knowledge people have from science, AND I have to insist that not only is it true by my particular interpretation of it is right AND I can allow no alternate ways to read it to enter my thoughts because my faith is so fragile that even considering another idea could cause it to topple. But because I MUST be right, then Bill shouldn’t have stolen that candy bar because now he’ll go to hell with Hitler and Stalin. Unless Hitler and Stalin said they were sorry to Jesus before they died (and Hitler said he was a Christian all along anyway), in which case they’re in heaven after murdering millions and poor Bill burns in hell forever for stealing a Clark Bar from the Qwikie Mart.”
That’s how warped and unjust your position is.
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Steve how about this one: Bill was wrong to steal that candy bar because if he was right, I would still be in my sins, and I am not in my sins, therefore Bill was wrong.
Fascinating game. Very much like making little rocks out of big rocks all day. Although in Chewbacca’s case it is trying to make big rocks out of little rocks all day. Of course only a rock-maker can do such a thing, and a rock-maker implies a rock-maker-maker and so on.
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#551 Since even a precisely explained metaphor escapes you, I’ll play literal.
You believe mankind is descended from fiat-created Adam and Eve, no? You believe that because they ate a forbidden apple, death – not known up until that point – entered the world, no? You believe the man Jesus was also God and his literal temporary death and subsequent resurrection put all this right, no?
The above scenario is flatly contradicted by empirical evidence.
Death has been around for billions of years fueling the evolutionary process. This is clear both in the fossil record and independently in genetic-clock evidence. Human ancestors were dying millions of years before your putative Garden of Eden. Humans were dying for many thousands of years before as well.
Your loquacious dancing around of these central issues while tossing around a veritable school of red herrings is exceedingly tiresome.
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spinoza, it’s just tard. you don’t have to get all mad about it.
The Argument Regarding Design.
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Steve how about this one: Bill was wrong to steal that candy bar because if he was right, I would still be in my sins, and I am not in my sins, therefore Bill was wrong.
Oh! Well that cinches it then!
I wonder what it’s like to be in A Salty Dog’s sins. Are they warm and squishy, or cold and with sharp edges? Is it like being in a feather bed? Or in a cave?
We may never know.
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Since even a precisely explained metaphor escapes you, I’ll play literal.
Want to bet he won’t understand literal either?
Actually I think he understands it; he just has the absurd notion that his prior belief in his book forces him to reject the empirical evidence in favor of the book.
Rather that reinterpret the book in the light of empirical evidence.
It’s a fascinating pathology, really.
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steve, that and he somehow thinks that experiential learning and theories rooted in empiricism are the direct descendants of taking his magic book for absolute truth. i am still chuckling about that one. chutzpah, thy name is saul.
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T he
A rguement
R egarding
D esign.
Very funny.
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Rdean you should come see us.
google “after the bar closes anti-evolution”. first hit. you’ll love it.
salty dog you too. we’d love to have you, particularly if this thread bites the dust. all of you’ns.
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#558 – Oh – and here I thought it was the
Deluge
Argument
From
Fundamentalist
Young-earthers
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SteveG (mostly #531),
We had an interesting issue and unfortunately, I couldn’t get back to it earlier. Your message had been rather long (including so many quotations of mine). Let me see whether a continuation still makes sense.
We had gotten this far:
SteveG (#536): We were talking about whether belief specifically in the Christian God (as opposed to some other religious tradition or an ethical secular humanism) is necessary in order to have a meaningful ethical system, and what limits God’s ability to save, in standard Christian theology.
E.D Ott: That sounds like a tough topic. The answers aren’t difficult if you have faith. And yet, we could fill a whole library with it. So I ask for your patience.
But I try to proceed now from your message (#531).
E.D. Ott (#511): And to be sure, if you didn’t presuppose Christianity being true – you would have a big problem in order to make guys like Hitler or Stalin be guilty of spending a day at the beach… Sorry, now I got something wrong. But the alert readers know what I am talking about.
SteveG: But this is not so. If I were a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist I would have no problem finding Hitler or Stalin guilty of evil. If I were a Muslim or a Jew I could do it by appealing to a variation of the same God you appeal to.
E.D. Ott: Also, this could prove right the universality of God’s law known by everybody, suppressed or happily accepted – or something in the middle, if you like.
But are you appealing to the same God after all? Many times you ascribed attributes to the God of the Bible and you think these attributes are correct. And they aren’t. I think you don’t know the God I am talking about at all. I don’t say this in order to offend you. I say it because I noticed it so often. And some other times you appeal to your god and you think I should know him/her/it. But I don’t know him/her/it. And I think you don’t know him/her/it either. Are you sure it isn’t “them”?
SteveG: Even if I were an atheist I could point to the grave disruption they caused in the world and the great harm not just to the individuals they murdered, but to everyone who had to live under their oppression, resist their invasions and sacrifice to fight them.
E.D. Ott: In other words, you can’t escape that universality either. I am thankful that you see the “grave disruption”. And to be sure, we all see it. We all know what a “disruption” (theologically “sin”) is. The only interesting thing is though, whether you accept His set of rules and receive the blessing that comes along with it. Additionally, we would be able to see how much God cares about humanity. The question is, ACCORDING TO WHOM did the people we have in mind “live under … oppression”? This is why God exists necessarily, I think. Unless it is only your natural empathy which exists necessarily. But where would that have come from?
SteveG: A Deist could argue that while the Deist God may not be directly involved in the affairs of man, he did create humanity with an inborn conscience that men like Hitler and Stalin violated in enormous measure.
E.D. Ott: To be sure, a Deist can argue in whatever way he or she finds appealing at the moment. The god you are talking about has not yet revealed him/her/itself. At least not to me. And as you haven’t brought him/her/it up in a more precise way, I conclude he/she/it hasn’t revealed him/her/itself to you.How do you know there is an “inborn conscience”. How can it be violated if it didn’t exist? And if it does exist, can it be violated in an absolute sense? This “inborn conscience” hasn’t yet been found in people. You assume it as Christianity is true.
SteveG: Belief in the Christian triune God does indeed provide a sound moral ground for pronouncing them wrong, but it is hardly the only belief system that does.
E.D. Ott: You say that it does provide and you say that it is hardly the only belief system that does.Yet, I like very much you saying a positive matter positively! Indeed, God takes good care of providing a sound moral ground. I highly doubt that in the Soviet communism there was a sound moral ground for anything – unless you accept ASaltyDog’s statement that – you, Steve, are a hypocrite (ASaltyDog #476) because you presuppose Christianity to be true when it comes to “ethics” and yet to dismiss it because you think it’s irrational. It is as it was written before (ASaltyDog #460): “It appears you grant the workability of Christanity, but you refuse to embrace it (in order to preserve your rationality) only because of a baffling hope that somewhere, somehow, there may be another position that also fits the bill.”
I want to remind you of consistently abandoning Christianity even though you grant it makes sense. And then you jump into an irrational position and think that was really cool.
SteveG (#481): However, if you read it honestly, it just as easily gives you a handy external reason to say those that Hitler killed deserved death.
E.D. Ott (#511): Actually, we ALL deserve death, if Christianity is true. Romans chapter 3.
SteveG (#531): And we all die. So that is a non-issue. The question is whether any of us deserve to be murdered, to die sooner than the natural course of our lives would account for.
E.D. Ott: Now wait a moment. How could we get so much carried away from the original topic? You had assumed Christianity to be true. And at the same time you hadn’t assumed “enough” and I corrected you. Also, I wanted to show you that if evolution was true, then you have got difficulties in explaining why people like Hitler are wrong. Ethics was indeed one issue. You trust your “natural empathy” to say that Hitler was wrong. Stalin’s natural empathy, as we know, was different from yours. Saddam Hussein’s was, too. Whose natural empathy is right on target? The majority’s then? The Christians’? Friendly Buddhists’?
And now, all of a sudden you jump (once again) into a totally different corner and blame the God of the Bible for being different from your natural empathy. God says of Himself that He is a perfect Judge. God says of Himself that He is a perfect sacrifice for being reconciled.
What would you answer to your own question? Do we deserve to be murdered? Now you may think I’m cold as ice. Or that I’m a professional killer. The Bible says, we deserve death. Now think a second, please. Would you rather like the Bible make explicit statements such as “you just should fall asleep when you are tired when you’re 120 years old, and all your relatives are sitting around your death bed crying”? We all deserve death. And death can be caused in various ways, and it can creep into our lives at any moment. Have you got a problem with this?
Vice versa, Steve, you were born. First of all, you couldn’t say “no” to the fact that you entered this world. You couldn’t choose the time either. You were born as a boy and you couldn’t choose to be a girl. Maybe you are living in windy and rainy Ireland, and so you couldn’t choose sunny California. Only one thing is really sure, sure for everybody in this world. We are under the wrath of God since Adam and therefore, we have to die.
SteveG (#481): The Jews? Unsaved heretics. The homosexuals? God himself ordained death for them.
E.D. Ott (#511): You are mixing up two different things being consistent within Christianity. Let’s clarify them first: God the Saviour and God the Judge. God (as Judge) has told us that we all fall short of the glory. We all, whether Jews or Gentiles! We all, whether homosexuals or not! Secondly, the situation as it is (we being ordained to die, as you wrote) has made God design a way out of death: By the substitutional death of His son Jesus Christ (the Saviour): “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (II. Cor 5:21). To make one other thing also still clear: God doesn’t delight in the death of His enemies. He says: “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” (Ezekiel 33:11)
An addition to my former text: The Jews aren’t unsaved due to belonging to a certain group of people. The homosexuals don’t go to hell because of their lust. I stress one more time: We all go to hell for our sins.
SteveG (#531): Right. And if we were talking about the victims of Hitler and Stalin as being the “wicked” it might even be relevant.
E.D. Ott: If there was a sound file attached to your statement, I guess it wasn’t soft rock. According to God we are all “wicked”. Because we deny Him.
SteveG (#531): But we’re not. We’re talking about them as being the victims of brutal oppression. So if they deserved not just to die but to be executed, as God the Judge ordained, then you suddenly have undermined your own basis for calling Hitler and Stalin evil.
E.D. Ott: No, I haven’t. How come Hitler and Stalin are wicked? How come the Jews weren’t wicked? In God’s eyes we all are wicked, did you forget? The issue we still need to work on is this: Is anybody justified to carry out the death of anybody? Now you say “no”, and so do I. But I don’t quite know on what basis you say it. Hitler and Stalin could live with such decisions. And maybe they could sleep perfectly at night. I say “no” because God wants to save our humanity and dignity by bringing up a commandment: You shall not kill. Now I don’t want to drag our conversation into a “wrong” corner, but in fact, the Bible teaches that killing can be appropriate. I’m talking about death penalty carried out by the state. If you allow me to say one more sentence here about that issue, let me make clear to you that I mean a state which would follow God in everything.
Now do I want to justify the holocaust by saying so? Of course not! The Third Reich was wicked and didn’t follow God at all. And more important: Killing someone because he or she is an unbeliever is a sinful act.
I would like to make a short discourse at this point. The Jews were executed by wicked people. This IS true. And as it happened, it must have happened by God’s permission, right? You grant that He exists for this very purpose! But this is not yet the end of the story.
First of all, killing the body isn’t yet equal to killing the soul (Mt 10:28). That is something only God can do. Killing on an individual level is evil and wrong. If a state that doesn’t follow God carries out death penalty as a public punishment, this is evil and wrong. Also death penalty for wrong reasons (such as faith) is evil and wrong. Yet, God says He is just. We can’t escape our dreadful consequences of murder if we killed for instance an unbeliever or the man in bed next to our wife. God blames us for our wickedness justly.
Amongst all other people, also the Jews didn’t submit to His righteousness (Rom. 10:3). But God hasn’t rejected the Jews (11:1) nor has He rejected all of them (11:5). God has a greater plan with the Jews than we can imagine. “But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fulness bring!” (11:12). Actually, there is a great mystery (11:25). Jews and Gentiles are similar in their sin of disobedience and in God’s offer of mercy. God’s ultimate plan brings about a greater “victory” than we can comprehend. God in His wisdom and sovereignty demonstrates that “just as you [the Gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their [the Jews] disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” (11:30-32)
E.D. Ott (#511): One little additional note only between you and me: Many people call Hitler an erratic maniac. Yet, Historians say that he wasn’t a fool at all. He had a clear and – we still assume Christianity, right? – evil vision and a goal right from the start. And he carried it out according to his plans. What I want to say is that this guy was so wicked, so evil that it sounds inconceivable to me that he confessed of his sins in his last moments. But if he did – then he’s one step ahead of you, Steve. Remember: Better late than never!
SteveG (#531): I agree, it’s unlikely that he did. But the point being, as you admit, IF he did — or if any evil person does — your belief system allows them entry into heaven.
E.D. Ott: Yes. Thank God for His graciousness! You also can wait until the last minute. But would that be wise?
SteveG (#531): Meanwhile, a person who lives a gentle, loving life, harming none and doing good for many, but does not believe in Christ, burns in torment forever and ever, because the few sins he did inevitably commit remain unforgiven.
E.D. Ott: Remember, Steve: We ALL fall short of the glory. Even unborn children fall short of that glory. Sin means eternal separation from God, ever since Adam and Eve sinned. (Rom 5:17) We are born in the state theologians call “original sin”. We sin even though we don’t want to. (Rom. 7:17) Today there was a guy walking around with this text on his T-shirt: “Morally bankrupt”. That is in fashion, Steve: Knowing that we are wrong. And we are proud of it. And next time this guy may pull out a gun and shoot someone dead. Some people in the future may even be fond of sinning.
SteveG (# 481): Does that sound right to you?
E.D. Ott (#511): Still assuming Christianity: Yes. Thankfully, God holds to His promises.
Additionally, it doesn ‘t only sound right — but perfectly right. God has not only told us that we must die for our sins (the amount of sins isn’t really relevant, nor is it the graveness of your sin or sins, except the “deadly sin” – rejecting God although you know that He is right). But He has made clear how we can be reconciled with Him, by accepting Jesus Christ. Doesn’t that sound right to you? This Jesus may have carried also your sins to the cross.
SteveG (# 531): Either your God does not want to save everyone, even though he could … OR, your God wants to save everyone but is not able to.
E.D. Ott: The scenario is actually still a bit more complicated than you describe it. I see your point. This is one conclusion. But it isn’t a biblical conclusion which proves that you don’t know the God of the Bible.
Do you remember when the “Estonia” sank? It was a dark and stormy night. Think of the horror scenarios we never saw, people in their cabins in darkness, objects flying around, the cold water, between certainty of death and hope to survive. But the ferry sank. Almost 1000 people died and a bit over 100 people survived. Do you want to suggest that it is unfair that God is sitting in a boat fishing people out of the water as they elsewise are going to die fast? To be sure, if God isn’t sitting in a boat nearby, fishing some, nobody saves them.
We face the problem that God saves some but not all. This is not only an issue for you and me but for everybody to think about. Your idea is that He isn’t able or He doesn’t want to.
Instead, I reply: What is wrong with creating faith in a sinner’s heart? What is wrong with that sinner becoming a Christian? God makes a choice. And as we know from the Bible He doesn’t make that choice dependant on our deeds. He has decided not to save everybody. He has decided to save some. He must have a good reason for having made this decision for God is sovereign – not arbitrary.
Of course, people might say at this very point, then how on earth does God hold us responsible for our evil deeds. God’s plans aren’t wicked, but ours are. That is the difference. Think of Judas and that he betrayed Jesus. “The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.” (Luke 22:22) It was his free will to do so. And therefore his deed is accountable before God. We (as Judas or Peter) sin because we are sinners. God doesn’t coerce anybody to sin. Ever! Instead, He gives people back the ability to not sin – by rebirth.
Ultimately, in spite of God’s providence we are responsible for what we are doing.
SteveG (#531): The usual response here is that God respects the free will of people to reject him. But that makes God less than perfectly loving. If your son wanted to become a bank robber, would you as his father respect his free will, or would you refuse to allow it? (If you answer that you would not have the power to refuse to allow it, remember that God DOES have the power.)
E.D. Ott: I like your example. Notwithstanding, it misses the point that in God’s eyes I am a bank robber, too. And inevitably, my son becomes a bank robber. You see my point? My son doesn’t want to know in fact, what my opinion is on him becoming a robber. That’s the issue!
Without God’s revelation of sin we wouldn’t know that being a bank robbery is wrong. But we do know it. As R.C. Sproul put it: “God doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked. There is a sense in which the punishment of the wicked does not bring joy to God. He chooses to do it because it is good to punish evil. He delights in the righteousness of his judgement but is “sad” that such righteous judgement must be carried out. It is something like a judge sitting on a bench and sentencing his own son to prison.” (Chosen by God, p. 196)
So finally here we reach a border-line. I agree with you that our Holy God has given His permission for us to reject Him. Yet, He never forced us to do so. In the beginning, Adam and Eve had a choice. Now we don’t know why God let it happen. But I draw a different conclusion than you did. Also, this is the reason why God right from the beginning decided to recreate everything new in the future. He started doing so by sending His son to us. And by substituting our hearts of stone with real hearts.
Joshua Anderson writes about that what I called border-line in an article entitled “Presuppositionalism and The Problem of Evil”: “It’s worth noting that some of the things (…) would not be possible without the existence, at least for a time, of some kind of evil. In fact, many of the things that we routinely consider the highest and noblest goods, things like forgiveness, hope, perseverance, courage, mercy, self-sacrifice, grace and compassion are the result of a good overcoming some kind of evil.” (http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/practical_theology/HOF.Anderson.Dialogue_3.10.04.html)
SteveG: So which is it? Is God’s love imperfect, or is his power?
E.D. Ott: No. It is His sovereign decision. Think of “Estonia” in a dark night. No help available. Glory be to Him that He saves people! And we are so wicked due to our sins that we insist of Him being wrong. Instead, we should be thankful that He frees us from Plato’s cave. Steve, God isn’t obliged to be merciful. God has decided to display the two attributes He does have: Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy. We all receive either Perfect Justice — and we don’t receive “injustice” from God, in fact, God isn’t unjust, (Romans 9:14) — in other words, we get what we deserve, or God decides to be merciful to take us away from something we deserve. In that case, it depends on His Holy councel. On first glance, this looks maybe like an awful God. But we easily forget that He is righteous and holy. When I got to that “experience” myself I finally understood how really merciful and loving He is.
Yet, He doesn’t save all of us. The sun is shining on everybody. But His mercy is only meant for a special group. And they are the ones who praise Him for this act. And that gives us Christians a real task, to tell everybody that there is a boat around the Estonia. Look up for that boat!
God’s plan can’t be altered by making Him a criminal or by putting under the carpet what He has revealed. Of course, we can make a criminal of Him, but then we don’t see the saving boat at all.
SteveG (#531): The Theory of Evolution is not to blame for Hitler’s misusing some of its concepts. Hitler’s hatred of Jews grew out of his similar misuse of Christianity.
E.D. Ott: The question remains, was he justified to “misuse” some of the concepts of the Theory of Evolution?
To be sure, Hitler wasn’t justified to misuse Christianity. But nevertheless, he misused.
SteveG: Hitler said: (…) In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. (…)
E.D. Ott: Germans (and maybe also Austrians) call themselves easily “Christians”. They have been baptized and they attended a church service and they are “Christians”. I came across this foolish concept only outside of Germany. “Christians” is a word that can be filled with whatever content you want to fill it. That is doing damage to the “true Scotsmen”.
SteveG: Oh, and another group that Hitler targeted for extermination? Atheists.
E.D. Ott: I seriously would like to know who said so. At least, he wanted to exterminate the Christians after the war would be over. People kept running to churches as their kids were fighting somewhere – and they started to pray. If there was a line of destruction also for atheists, they were queuing in their line to destruction much later.
SteveG: You continue to confuse the acceptance of the science of evolution as necessarily including a lack of an ethical system.
E.D. Ott: No, but the lack of natural empathy!
SteveG: I assume you are operating on the assumption that if humans are just another form of animal we have no obligation to behave according to any higher principle.
E.D. Ott: No, again. Christianity affirms a dignity to humans that animals don’t have. Animals can’t be held responsible for “evil deeds”, for biting me in the hand. Well. certainly you can shoot that animal, but will the others learn that biting was wrong. Where does this strange concept of absolute “right” and “wrong” then come from, if not from animals?
SteveG: But nothing about evolution makes that necessary. Humans are animals biologically, but many people who are both religious and accept evolution hold that we are also unique as spiritual beings… that at some point in the evolution of man, God saw that we had reached the point of being able to be in spiritual communion with God and at that point, made us in his spiritual image.
E.D. Ott: And Erasmus is going to sign this with his blood! And RDean! And Spinoza! As a Christian I have to dismiss your concept. That is not what the Bible says.
Yet, I like you insisting on your view! It is so genuine. Frankly, I insisted, too. I saw that the Christian God fits the bill but that was too plain to be true and also, it contradicted what media are teaching.
Now, we ultimately do our own choices. God says, we need to have faith ourselves. He doesn’t do the believing for us. We can throw away redemption or we can throw away your theory. Dependant on what you throw away, a lot of things will disappear automatically, too. If Christianity – what you grant – fits the bill, why keep a theory?
If the theory of evolution is so neat, why keep the concept of the redemptive and loving God? Don’t just keep your anger about Him. You must get rid of Him in a full sense!
Francis Collin, the guy you recommended, may be a great scientist. I haven’t yet had the time to look up his book in the library, but I will. I don’t criticise what he is doing in science. I criticise his theology only.
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E.D. Ott at #565:
There’s a lot of good and intriguing stuff in here. Let me see what I can do with it. I will delete all but the essential quotes from prior messages for the sake of brevity, with a reminder that anyone else reading this exchange can get the full context by referring to the earlier posts.
E.D. Ott (#511): And to be sure, if you didn’t presuppose Christianity being true – you would have a big problem in order to make guys like Hitler or Stalin be guilty of spending a day at the beach… Sorry, now I got something wrong. But the alert readers know what I am talking about.
SteveG: But this is not so. If I were a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist I would have no problem finding Hitler or Stalin guilty of evil. If I were a Muslim or a Jew I could do it by appealing to a variation of the same God you appeal to.
E.D. Ott: Also, this could prove right the universality of God’s law known by everybody, suppressed or happily accepted – or something in the middle, if you like.
This is something I agree with and have consistently argued. The moral law is universal among humanity.
But are you appealing to the same God after all? Many times you ascribed attributes to the God of the Bible and you think these attributes are correct. And they aren’t. I think you don’t know the God I am talking about at all. I don’t say this in order to offend you. I say it because I noticed it so often. And some other times you appeal to your god and you think I should know him/her/it. But I don’t know him/her/it. And I think you don’t know him/her/it either. Are you sure it isn’t “them”?
There is only the one God. Different human ideas of religion have imposed human-invented attributes on that God. The real God is found (to the no doubt minuscule degree we humans can grasp) by peeling away those contradictory ideas and seeing what consistency remains.
SteveG: Even if I were an atheist I could point to the grave disruption they caused in the world and the great harm not just to the individuals they murdered, but to everyone who had to live under their oppression, resist their invasions and sacrifice to fight them.
E.D. Ott: In other words, you can’t escape that universality either. I am thankful that you see the “grave disruption”. And to be sure, we all see it. We all know what a “disruption” (theologically “sin”) is. The only interesting thing is though, whether you accept His set of rules and receive the blessing that comes along with it. Additionally, we would be able to see how much God cares about humanity. The question is, ACCORDING TO WHOM did the people we have in mind “live under … oppression”? This is why God exists necessarily, I think. Unless it is only your natural empathy which exists necessarily. But where would that have come from?
As I have said, I do believe that natural empathy can be seen as the indwelling of moral law. To be sure, there are naturalistic explanations. But I think, especially when we consider acts of true altruism, they fall short.
SteveG: A Deist could argue that while the Deist God may not be directly involved in the affairs of man, he did create humanity with an inborn conscience that men like Hitler and Stalin violated in enormous measure.
E.D. Ott: To be sure, a Deist can argue in whatever way he or she finds appealing at the moment. The god you are talking about has not yet revealed him/her/itself. At least not to me. And as you haven’t brought him/her/it up in a more precise way, I conclude he/she/it hasn’t revealed him/her/itself to you.How do you know there is an “inborn conscience”. How can it be violated if it didn’t exist? And if it does exist, can it be violated in an absolute sense? This “inborn conscience” hasn’t yet been found in people. You assume it as Christianity is true.
SteveG: Belief in the Christian triune God does indeed provide a sound moral ground for pronouncing them wrong, but it is hardly the only belief system that does.
E.D. Ott: You say that it does provide and you say that it is hardly the only belief system that does.Yet, I like very much you saying a positive matter positively! Indeed, God takes good care of providing a sound moral ground. I highly doubt that in the Soviet communism there was a sound moral ground for anything – unless you accept ASaltyDog’s statement that – you, Steve, are a hypocrite (ASaltyDog #476) because you presuppose Christianity to be true when it comes to “ethics” and yet to dismiss it because you think it’s irrational. It is as it was written before (ASaltyDog #460): “It appears you grant the workability of Christanity, but you refuse to embrace it (in order to preserve your rationality) only because of a baffling hope that somewhere, somehow, there may be another position that also fits the bill.”
I want to remind you of consistently abandoning Christianity even though you grant it makes sense. And then you jump into an irrational position and think that was really cool.
The key question with regard to Christianity or any other proffered religious system is not whether it makes sense internally, but whether it accords with the outside world. It is not great feat to create an entirely self-consistent set of propositions. It is an entirely different matter to show them to match the real world.
Any science fiction or fantasy story you’ve ever read or seen in a movie involves the creation of such an internally-consistent mythos (and when they aren’t internally consistent, they fail as stories.)
So I will agree that your particular version of Christianity, including your insistence on believing Genesis literally, is internally consistent TO A DEGREE (but not completely as I’ll point out in a bit). But it is not externally consistent, and that is where it fails.
Other ways to understand Christianity, allowing for the advance of human knowledge without insisting the ancient scripture overrules acquired knowledge, can be externally consistent.
E.D. Ott: Now wait a moment. How could we get so much carried away from the original topic? You had assumed Christianity to be true. And at the same time you hadn’t assumed “enough” and I corrected you. Also, I wanted to show you that if evolution was true, then you have got difficulties in explaining why people like Hitler are wrong.
That fails on the premise. As I tried to explain to you before, evolution as science can co-exist with any theology except for the literal-Genesis kind. Your argument isn’t against evolution at all, it’s against philosophical materialism. Until you understand the difference, you will continue tilting at windmills.
Ethics was indeed one issue. You trust your “natural empathy” to say that Hitler was wrong. Stalin’s natural empathy, as we know, was different from yours. Saddam Hussein’s was, too. Whose natural empathy is right on target? The majority’s then? The Christians’? Friendly Buddhists’?
When your perception of your natural empathy tells you to murder millions, and the anger of the world is kindled against you as a result because their natural empathy tells them you are evil, something has gone wrong in your soul. That is not hard to see.
And now, all of a sudden you jump (once again) into a totally different corner and blame the God of the Bible for being different from your natural empathy. God says of Himself that He is a perfect Judge. God says of Himself that He is a perfect sacrifice for being reconciled.
What would you answer to your own question? Do we deserve to be murdered? Now you may think I’m cold as ice. Or that I’m a professional killer. The Bible says, we deserve death. Now think a second, please. Would you rather like the Bible make explicit statements such as “you just should fall asleep when you are tired when you’re 120 years old, and all your relatives are sitting around your death bed crying”? We all deserve death. And death can be caused in various ways, and it can creep into our lives at any moment. Have you got a problem with this?
No, that’s the way the world is. The person who gets murdered can’t choose it. The person who does the murdering, however, can.
Vice versa, Steve, you were born. First of all, you couldn’t say “no” to the fact that you entered this world. You couldn’t choose the time either. You were born as a boy and you couldn’t choose to be a girl. Maybe you are living in windy and rainy Ireland, and so you couldn’t choose sunny California. Only one thing is really sure, sure for everybody in this world. We are under the wrath of God since Adam and therefore, we have to die.
How does justice justify holding all humans responsible for the sin of one? Original Sin is an incoherent concept.
It also is an unnecessary one, even for Christianity. All humans sin. This is obvious. There is no need to insist on belief in a myth about a paradisical garden and a talking snake to see that.
SteveG (#481): The Jews? Unsaved heretics. The homosexuals? God himself ordained death for them.
E.D. Ott (#511): You are mixing up two different things being consistent within Christianity. Let’s clarify them first: God the Saviour and God the Judge. God (as Judge) has told us that we all fall short of the glory. We all, whether Jews or Gentiles! We all, whether homosexuals or not! Secondly, the situation as it is (we being ordained to die, as you wrote) has made God design a way out of death: By the substitutional death of His son Jesus Christ (the Saviour): “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (II. Cor 5:21). To make one other thing also still clear: God doesn’t delight in the death of His enemies. He says: “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” (Ezekiel 33:11)
I believe it is you who are mixing two different things. Salvation of the soul, in yours or any theological view, doesn’t affect biological death at all. We all still die.
An addition to my former text: The Jews aren’t unsaved due to belonging to a certain group of people. The homosexuals don’t go to hell because of their lust. I stress one more time: We all go to hell for our sins.
Again, the conflation. Leviticus demands the death penalty for homosexuality. Hitler carried it out. Was Hitler wrong?
I’m not talking about whether they go to hell or not, I mean their physical, biological death.
SteveG (#531): But we’re not. We’re talking about them as being the victims of brutal oppression. So if they deserved not just to die but to be executed, as God the Judge ordained, then you suddenly have undermined your own basis for calling Hitler and Stalin evil.
E.D. Ott: No, I haven’t. How come Hitler and Stalin are wicked? How come the Jews weren’t wicked? In God’s eyes we all are wicked, did you forget? The issue we still need to work on is this: Is anybody justified to carry out the death of anybody? Now you say “no”, and so do I. But I don’t quite know on what basis you say it. Hitler and Stalin could live with such decisions. And maybe they could sleep perfectly at night. I say “no” because God wants to save our humanity and dignity by bringing up a commandment: You shall not kill. Now I don’t want to drag our conversation into a “wrong” corner, but in fact, the Bible teaches that killing can be appropriate. I’m talking about death penalty carried out by the state. If you allow me to say one more sentence here about that issue, let me make clear to you that I mean a state which would follow God in everything.
The Bible teaches that killing is appropriate for a whole host of things, including disrespectful children. Is that the sort of state you would find good?
Now do I want to justify the holocaust by saying so? Of course not! The Third Reich was wicked and didn’t follow God at all. And more important: Killing someone because he or she is an unbeliever is a sinful act.
I would like to make a short discourse at this point. The Jews were executed by wicked people. This IS true. And as it happened, it must have happened by God’s permission, right? You grant that He exists for this very purpose! But this is not yet the end of the story.
First of all, killing the body isn’t yet equal to killing the soul (Mt 10:28). That is something only God can do. Killing on an individual level is evil and wrong. If a state that doesn’t follow God carries out death penalty as a public punishment, this is evil and wrong. Also death penalty for wrong reasons (such as faith) is evil and wrong. Yet, God says He is just. We can’t escape our dreadful consequences of murder if we killed for instance an unbeliever or the man in bed next to our wife. God blames us for our wickedness justly.
Amongst all other people, also the Jews didn’t submit to His righteousness (Rom. 10:3). But God hasn’t rejected the Jews (11:1) nor has He rejected all of them (11:5). God has a greater plan with the Jews than we can imagine. “But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fulness bring!” (11:12). Actually, there is a great mystery (11:25). Jews and Gentiles are similar in their sin of disobedience and in God’s offer of mercy. God’s ultimate plan brings about a greater “victory” than we can comprehend. God in His wisdom and sovereignty demonstrates that “just as you [the Gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their [the Jews] disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” (11:30-32)
One wonders: If the Jews had been obedient, would God have left the Gentiles in the dark?
If God is one who bound all men over to disobedience, how can he send any to hell, then? They are disobedient because God made them so, just as he hardened Pharoah’s heart so that God would have reason to send more devastating plagues to Egypt.
In addition, this seems to contradict your view of Original Sin. Are we sinful because Adam and Eve succumbed to the serpent’s temptation, or because God has bound us over to disobedience?
This is an area where I’m not seeing the internal consistency you speak of.
SteveG (#531): I agree, it’s unlikely that he did. But the point being, as you admit, IF he did — or if any evil person does — your belief system allows them entry into heaven.
E.D. Ott: Yes. Thank God for His graciousness! You also can wait until the last minute. But would that be wise?
SteveG (#531): Meanwhile, a person who lives a gentle, loving life, harming none and doing good for many, but does not believe in Christ, burns in torment forever and ever, because the few sins he did inevitably commit remain unforgiven.
E.D. Ott: Remember, Steve: We ALL fall short of the glory. Even unborn children fall short of that glory. Sin means eternal separation from God, ever since Adam and Eve sinned. (Rom 5:17) We are born in the state theologians call “original sin”. We sin even though we don’t want to. (Rom. 7:17) Today there was a guy walking around with this text on his T-shirt: “Morally bankrupt”. That is in fashion, Steve: Knowing that we are wrong. And we are proud of it. And next time this guy may pull out a gun and shoot someone dead. Some people in the future may even be fond of sinning.
SteveG (# 481): Does that sound right to you?
E.D. Ott (#511): Still assuming Christianity: Yes. Thankfully, God holds to His promises.
Additionally, it doesn ‘t only sound right — but perfectly right. God has not only told us that we must die for our sins (the amount of sins isn’t really relevant, nor is it the graveness of your sin or sins, except the “deadly sin” – rejecting God although you know that He is right). But He has made clear how we can be reconciled with Him, by accepting Jesus Christ. Doesn’t that sound right to you? This Jesus may have carried also your sins to the cross.
This is where the idea of eternal damnation fails. If God is perfectly just, then his justice must be perfect, yes? And eternal torment for a finite lifetime of sin is inherently unjust. The punishment far outweighs the crime.
SteveG (# 531): Either your God does not want to save everyone, even though he could … OR, your God wants to save everyone but is not able to.
E.D. Ott: The scenario is actually still a bit more complicated than you describe it. I see your point. This is one conclusion. But it isn’t a biblical conclusion which proves that you don’t know the God of the Bible.
It proves no such thing. I am pointing out a logical contradiction in the traditional view of the God of the Bible. (This traditional view, by the way, is not the only view.)
Do you remember when the “Estonia” sank? It was a dark and stormy night. Think of the horror scenarios we never saw, people in their cabins in darkness, objects flying around, the cold water, between certainty of death and hope to survive. But the ferry sank. Almost 1000 people died and a bit over 100 people survived. Do you want to suggest that it is unfair that God is sitting in a boat fishing people out of the water as they elsewise are going to die fast? To be sure, if God isn’t sitting in a boat nearby, fishing some, nobody saves them.
We face the problem that God saves some but not all. This is not only an issue for you and me but for everybody to think about. Your idea is that He isn’t able or He doesn’t want to.
It isn’t my idea, it’s the logical consequence of your argument. A man in a fishing boat near a sinking ship wants to save everyone but he is not physically able to, so he saves those he can. The analogy breaks down with regard to God, because God is not under those physical constraints.
Instead, I reply: What is wrong with creating faith in a sinner’s heart? What is wrong with that sinner becoming a Christian? God makes a choice. And as we know from the Bible He doesn’t make that choice dependant on our deeds. He has decided not to save everybody. He has decided to save some. He must have a good reason for having made this decision for God is sovereign – not arbitrary.
Of course, people might say at this very point, then how on earth does God hold us responsible for our evil deeds. God’s plans aren’t wicked, but ours are. That is the difference. Think of Judas and that he betrayed Jesus. “The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.” (Luke 22:22) It was his free will to do so. And therefore his deed is accountable before God. We (as Judas or Peter) sin because we are sinners. God doesn’t coerce anybody to sin. Ever! Instead, He gives people back the ability to not sin – by rebirth.
Ultimately, in spite of God’s providence we are responsible for what we are doing.
But this opportunity, if it requires explicit intellectual assent to propositional statements about Christ, is not open at all. Great numbers of people in the world, and even moreso in the past, never heard of Christ. Many of those who did hear of Christ heard it from conquerors, occupiers and other sorts of people who they could not be sympathetic to. In our modern age, many people know of Christ mostly from the lips of people who seem to be mean, vindictive and hypocritical, giving them little reason to consider the idea seriously.
And if God does save some who never heard, then you already have two different paths to salvation. And if you argue that many Jews will be saved for reasons of the original covenant, you have three.
This is another of those places where the internal consistency you claim breaks down.
SteveG (#531): The usual response here is that God respects the free will of people to reject him. But that makes God less than perfectly loving. If your son wanted to become a bank robber, would you as his father respect his free will, or would you refuse to allow it? (If you answer that you would not have the power to refuse to allow it, remember that God DOES have the power.)
E.D. Ott: I like your example. Notwithstanding, it misses the point that in God’s eyes I am a bank robber, too. And inevitably, my son becomes a bank robber. You see my point? My son doesn’t want to know in fact, what my opinion is on him becoming a robber. That’s the issue!
Without God’s revelation of sin we wouldn’t know that being a bank robbery is wrong. But we do know it. As R.C. Sproul put it: “God doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked. There is a sense in which the punishment of the wicked does not bring joy to God. He chooses to do it because it is good to punish evil. He delights in the righteousness of his judgement but is “sad” that such righteous judgement must be carried out. It is something like a judge sitting on a bench and sentencing his own son to prison.” (Chosen by God, p. 196)
In fact, no judge would do that. A judge who was assigned to a trial where his own son was the defendant would recuse himself and have it moved to another judge.
Why? Because a loving father is prone to forgive his son’s misdeeds. Is God any less loving than a human father?
I said earlier, but I’ll repeat: Eternal damnation is not just. It is like sentencing someone to death for stealing a Snickers bar.
So finally here we reach a border-line. I agree with you that our Holy God has given His permission for us to reject Him. Yet, He never forced us to do so. In the beginning, Adam and Eve had a choice. Now we don’t know why God let it happen. But I draw a different conclusion than you did. Also, this is the reason why God right from the beginning decided to recreate everything new in the future. He started doing so by sending His son to us. And by substituting our hearts of stone with real hearts.
If God is omniscient, then he knew before Creation that man’s fall was inevitable. He even, according to the Eden story, set up the conditions that made it possible … else he would not have put the tree there and allowed the serpent in.
If God created us knowing we would fall into sin, and did not plan to save all of us — without exception — then God knowingly created humanity knowing the vast majority of them would be destined to burn forever.
Is that something you can call good? This is another, and perhaps the fatal, internal inconsistency.
Joshua Anderson writes about that what I called border-line in an article entitled “Presuppositionalism and The Problem of Evil”: “It’s worth noting that some of the things (…) would not be possible without the existence, at least for a time, of some kind of evil. In fact, many of the things that we routinely consider the highest and noblest goods, things like forgiveness, hope, perseverance, courage, mercy, self-sacrifice, grace and compassion are the result of a good overcoming some kind of evil.” (http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/practical_theology/HOF.Anderson.Dialogue_3.10.04.html)
A good thought. But it doesn’t resolve the inconsistencies.
SteveG: So which is it? Is God’s love imperfect, or is his power?
E.D. Ott: No. It is His sovereign decision. Think of “Estonia” in a dark night. No help available. Glory be to Him that He saves people! And we are so wicked due to our sins that we insist of Him being wrong. Instead, we should be thankful that He frees us from Plato’s cave. Steve, God isn’t obliged to be merciful. God has decided to display the two attributes He does have: Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy. We all receive either Perfect Justice — and we don’t receive “injustice” from God, in fact, God isn’t unjust, (Romans 9:14) — in other words, we get what we deserve, or God decides to be merciful to take us away from something we deserve. In that case, it depends on His Holy councel. On first glance, this looks maybe like an awful God. But we easily forget that He is righteous and holy. When I got to that “experience” myself I finally understood how really merciful and loving He is.
Eternal damnation is unjust.
Consider this: Until the time of Constantine, most of the early Christians believed that God would eventually save all souls. Read Origen, for one example. Hell might be necessary for some or many, but in the early church Hell was more like the Catholic idea of Purgatory — a place of temporary, redemptive punishment so that the recalcitrant soul would finally repent and be welcomed into heaven.
It wasn’t until the church became a political entity under the dominion of the Roman empire that the idea of eternal damnation became useful as a tool of fear to keep people in line. (Many of the “heretics” that the church executed were those who refused to accept this turnabout.)
Now, 1,500 years later, eternal damnation is considered part of the traditional Christian view. It was not always that way.
Yet, He doesn’t save all of us. The sun is shining on everybody. But His mercy is only meant for a special group. And they are the ones who praise Him for this act. And that gives us Christians a real task, to tell everybody that there is a boat around the Estonia. Look up for that boat!
God’s plan can’t be altered by making Him a criminal or by putting under the carpet what He has revealed. Of course, we can make a criminal of Him, but then we don’t see the saving boat at all.
In your scenario, it was he who put the hole in the Estonia’s hull in the first place.
My time is up for now. I’ll have to get to the remainder of this later.
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Wow, I was just reading about a host of fossil discoveries in the last six months. I like the new sea monster with teeth the size of cucumbers. A car could sit in it’s 10 foot mouth. Then, there are new gliders discovered. They were covered with feathers. They built some from fossils and put sensors on them to see if they could indeed glide over long distances. Turns out they could. They share many traits with birds. We know birds came from a common ancestor, based on genes and they fact they all pretty much rely on the same design. Ain’t science wonderful?
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Only one thing is really sure, sure for everybody in this world. We are under the wrath of God since Adam and therefore, we have to die.
But before that I suppose their was no death – so why did RDean’s fave new fossil have “teeth the size of cucumbers?” Indeed, why did God create so many carnivores in the beginning, if there was no death until the fall? Why have all those canines useful for ripping meat if you have to be vegetarian?
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proof that quantity does not equal quality.
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SPINOZA at #551: Since even a precisely explained metaphor escapes you, I’ll play literal. You believe mankind is descended from fiat-created Adam and Eve, no? You believe that because they ate a forbidden apple, death – not known up until that point – entered the world, no? You believe the man Jesus was also God and his literal temporary death and subsequent resurrection put all this right, no? The above scenario is flatly contradicted by empirical evidence. Death has been around for billions of years fueling the evolutionary process. This is clear both in the fossil record and independently in genetic-clock evidence. Human ancestors were dying millions of years before your putative Garden of Eden. Humans were dying for many thousands of years before as well. Your loquacious dancing around of these central issues while tossing around a veritable school of red herrings is exceedingly tiresome.
ASALTYDOG: Dear Spinoza, please read with some patience what I have written to you and to others. I promise you, my messages are not red herrings at all. I may be dancing, but I am not dancing around the central issues. I am dancing on top of them.
The debate between creationism and evolutionism is not as simple as you seem to think. Many crucial assumptions are being made in secret by evolutionists, and these assumptions are hiding in dark places. They have crawled under your fridge and they have lived and thrived there unnoticed and undisturbed for decades. Of course I also make crucial assumptions, but differently from what seems to be the case with the evolutionists I talk to, I am aware that I do, and I am blunt and outspoken about their existence. This frankness is foolishly mocked by some evolutionists in this debate. These gentlemen are fools, since they do not see how they too have assumptions. The only difference is that they are blessedly ignorant of them. Alternatively, in case they do know about the assumptions they make, they bluff and lie.
One crucial assumption made by evolutionists is that of epistemological naturalism. Studying natural processes is the only way to gather knowledge about the universe. Revelation from God is not allowed to be a channel through which we can gather knowledge about the universe. In the words of Erasmus (#78), “It is impossible to be intellectually honest and logically consistent and also defend the bible as any source of historical or scientific information.” Often the universe is assumed to be all that exists. Sometimes the possibility that a god exists is granted, in which case what is denied is that this god has revealed propositional truth to mankind, especially about the early history of the world. Be that as it may, the core assumption is that if we want to gather knowledge about the universe, the only rational way to do so is through studying natural processes. This method takes precedence over any other method the evolutionist may want to take along as a mascot. In case of conflict between naturalism and the mascot, then the mascot be damned.
Evolutionists foolishly laugh and mock my adamant commitment to the Bible as a source of knowledge about the world. They say it is an unproved assumption. They say it is an unnecessary assumption. They say it is a foolish assumption. They say it is a dangerous assumption. They say it is an insane assumption. They challenge me to prove that God exists and that the Bible is the Word of God, before I start using it as a source of knowledge, let alone as the ultimate infallible source of knowledge. What they do not realize is that they are just as dogmatically committed to the principle of epistemological naturalism. They are just as dogmatic and unyielding about the principle that the only way to gather information about the world is through studying natural processes. They define science squarely on the basis of this assumption. Many people, especially the scientists, grow up with the impression that science and naturalism are synonyms. But naturalism is an assumption, not a conclusion.
The evolutionistic commitment to naturalism is just as foundational and unargued as mine (at this level). It is an assumption. When confronted with this, evolutionists will say it is a rational assumption. They will say it is a safe assumption. They will say it is a self-evident assumption. They will say it is the only possible assumption a man can make if he wants to preserve his rationality and avoid madness and superstition. In short, they make the same claims about this method of gathering knowledge that I make about the Bible. Safe, self-evident, rational, obvious. From that position they attack competing foundational claims that threat the supremacy of their method. The Bible comes under fire because it is a competitor. So the method of using the Bible as a source of truth is dismissed as irrational, unsafe, dangerous, insane. But I could just as well accuse them of having adopted a method which is irrational, unsafe, dangerous, insane. In fact, I do.
As I showed to Erasmus in a comment he conveniently ignored, he cannot show why he is committed to naturalism. He wrote: “You raise these epistemological issues with my account, and I’ll cheerfully grant you that in my view we have no guide other than personal empirical experience.” I replied: “Some people walk cheerfully to the gallows. Whatever. The important thing is to be the last one who cheers. So that’s what you believe, your view? Tell me, what empirical experience told you that you should have no guide other than personal empirical experience?” Erasmus never replied. He completely ignored this issue.
I recommend you and all alert readers to pay special attention to the spots in this discussion where my opponents fail to answer me. I know, that basically requires paying constant attention. But watch carefully what’s going on here. Now Erasmus will probably post a comment about this, when he sees I am pointing my torchlight to this delicate spot. I believe he understands that this is a crucial issue. That’s why he ignored it. He will now mock me as usual. He will deny that this is a crucial issue. He will say I am imagining things. He will call me names. He will spit at me in the face. He will try to draw the attention of readers to that bird over there. The one thing he will not do is to answer my question. If anything, he will mock my question. He will despise my question. But he will not answer it. Why? Because I have touched his Bible.
He will say, “There is no need to show this nonsense is wrong, only that it is stupid.” He will say, “There is no meat in these ontological acrobatics.” He will say many things, most of them obscene and filthy, because if a man can’t afford appealing to anything up there he will go as low as it gets down here. Call it Erasmus’s desperate, truly pitiful wish for transcendence. But my point is that Erasmus will say all these many things because of his incoherent assumption about naturalism.
Maybe the evolutionist will say of course he makes this admittedly unprovable assumption of epistemological naturalism, but that’s the only sane thing a man can do, since the alternative — belief in a sky beast — is irrational, unmotivated, and begs the question. After all, naturalism gives already the answers, so why would anybody need to discard a reliable source of authority? The Christian, he will say, is the one who has the burden of proof, since he is the one making the silly claim that there is a sky beast somewhere. But once again he will still say all these things because of his unargued, foundational precommitment to naturalism.
Naturalism is his infallible authority. It is his unargued assumption. It is the foundation of his thinking. It is the obvious fountain of all his rationality. It is the untouched and untouchable, unquestioned and unquestionable root of all wisdom. It is the father and mother of all his subsequent syllogisms, deductions, jokes, argumentations, and commitments, and he would rather drown in a Worldwide Flood than give up his fundamentalistic loyalty to this principle.
You see, an unargued foundational infallible authoritative assumption for one’s thinking is an inescapable concept. The question is not whether you possess a foundational infallible unargued authority for your life. The question is which one.
No facts are observed neutrally by the evolutionist. Forget neutrality. Forget objectivity. All facts are being interpreted. Evolutionism determines in advance what counts or doesn’t count as proof. Results that do not fit with evolutionism are discarded. New avenues are sought when facts prove recalcitrant. Negotiable aspects of one’s worldview are switched or replaced, but the core must remain unchallenged. Read also Thomas Kuhn. If facts conflict with evolutionism, then facts be damned. I showed all these things with my examples of the galaxies and the comets (you missed my point completely), and my parody of Jan Oort’s life.
But then when evolutionists assume naturalism and then they go ahead and “prove” evolution they are simply begging the question. And the naturalistic assumption is just that, an assumption, not a conclusion of an argument. It is because of this foundational assumption of naturalism that evolutionists like to say evolution is a fact, not a theory. “What evolution says is reality, dammit.” Or as you say, “Death has been around for billions of years fueling the evolutionary process.” That is, it has to be the case that death has been around for billions of years because evolution is true. Death had to fuel evolution. And doesn’t that prove creationism is wrong?
I have said many times that the same applies to creationism. All facts are seen and interpreted by creationists as consistent with the Bible. If a fact is recalcitrant, creationists suspend judgment and think about it. They do not give up creationism. But once again, this is not peculiar to creationists. Evolutionists do exactly the same thing. The evolutionists’ century-long quest for the “correct” estimation of the earth’s age is another testimony to this truth. It took a long time to find some methods that give values consistent with evolution. In the process, methods that failed to give “correct” results were rejeted as “unsatisfactory” or “unreliable”. But all methods, even the accepted ones, are based on assumptions. The assumptions for these methods are themselves based on the foundational, unargued, certain, infallible assumption of naturalism. The end result is that the evolutionist talks about the results of these methods as “reality” and “fact”. Then these results are pushed to “prove” that creationism must be wrong, as it is in conflict with “reality”. Big deal.
So both camps are sure that when it comes to new, controversial, difficult issues, time and further research will surely prove them correct. They are sure about it because of their respective foundational commitments to sources of knowledge that they repute to be infallible, and to principles that are assumed by both camps to be correct no matter what.
Being this the case, debate over “facts” is futile. There are no brute facts. There are only interpreted facts. There is no neutrality. It is also futile to raise one’s voice, bang one’s fist on the table, and shout that “Reality proves you wrong, you idiot!” Or that my position “denies reality”. Or that my position “lacks external consistency with the real, external world”. That is a child’s game. Both camps can, and do, play that game. That some evolutionists in this discussion think they are making a point when they use this language is a testimony to their epistemological naivety.
This does not leave us in skepticism or relativism however. My argument in this discussion has been that as we consider what must be the case so that science is possible at all, then the debate is easily settled. Between evolutionism and Christianity only the latter provides the foundation for assuming the uniformity of nature, for logic, and for ethics, which are all essential for doing science. Evolutionists also assume the uniformity of science, logic and ethics, but they do it in spite of their evolutionism. They secretly borrow these Christian concepts in order to do their work. This clearly shows that evolutionism is false. It is a parasite worldview. The proof that evolutionism is false is that if it were true it wouldn’t be possible to prove anything. Everybody assumes Christianity, so why am I a fool for assuming it?
I have answered elsewhere the objection that was raised here that even granting that godless evolutionism fails to account for science, ethics and logic, other religious worldviews besides Christianity may be able to account for them. I don’t believe that is true. I don’t believe it is possible. Since Christianity, built as it is on strict exclusivism, fits the bill, it is the only position that fits the bill. Otherwise it wouldn’t fit the bill. No other position, religion or worldview has been shown in this debate to be internally consistent and to provide the foundations for science, ethics and logic. Certainly godless evolutionism hasn’t been shown to be anything but an incoherent mess. I have argued my position elsewhere in this discussion. Here I only want to add that this objection assumes and concedes that godless evolutionism is false (even if for the sake of discussion). The only rational way to go for a person who raises this objection, at the very least, is that in order to save his rationality he should become immediately a Christian creationist. The one irrational route of action for a person who seriously raises this objection would be to remain an evolutionist.
Far from being the case that human experience proves evolutionism, evolutionism destroys the intelligibility of human experience. Since Christian creationism alone accounts for science, facts must be interpreted according to Christian creationism.
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STEVEG at #554: You do know that Judaism predates Christianity, right? (That means it’s older than Christianity … hard for one religion to be a “heresy” of another one that didn’t exist for around 2,000 years before the newer one came into being. Jews say Christianity is a Jewish heresy, and they have the better claim.)
ASALTYDOG: Steve, modern Judaism is Talmud Judaism, which started in A.D. times, after the Jerusalem Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. Of course there was an older form of Judaism out of which Talmud Judaism developed, but that older Judaism is Christianity itself. I repeat, Christianity begins in the garden of Eden. Christianity is Jewish. This is classic Reformed theology. Obviously Christianity was not known with that name before the birth, death and resurrection of Christ, the Jewish Messiah, but it was the same system all along. Christians believe the Old Testament is the Word of God. The history of Israel is the history of Christ’s people. Israel has always had faith in the coming Messiah. The promise of the Messiah goes back to the Garden of Eden. The Messiah was born a Jew. Many Jews rejected the Messiah, but many Jews accepted Him. With the advent of the Messiah, the wall of partition between Israel and non-Israel collapsed. The new cosmopolitan people that was formed was called with the name Christian, but in many respects there was nothing new about it. In fact, the New Testament explicitly calls “true Israel” those who trust the Messiah from Nazareth. God’s people has always believed in the Messiah — either that He would come or that He came. But the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 A.D. (prophesized by Jesus as an act of vengeance from God) forced the Jews who rejected the Messiah to come up with a major revision of their beliefs and practices. The religion that was born was an apostasy from God, an abandonment of older Judaism in many respects, and is known as Talmud Judaism. I know that Jews would argue that Christians are a Jewish heresy, but we have to assess these two competing claims in the same way we should assess evolutionism and creationism, starting from the internal consistency of the two positions. In this paragraph I have told you what the Christian position is, and I have explained how and why Christianity views modern Judaism as a Christian heresy. I am confident that it is a consistent position and that facts of history are consistent with it.
STEVEG: Tell me, what specifically is internally inconsistent about Judaism. Don’t just declare that it is. Show me, specifically, how it is. What, precisely, does Judaism teach that is internally inconsistent?
ASALTYDOG: Judaism accepts the so called Old Testament, all the way from Genesis, as the revelation of the only true God. Specifically, it teaches that God revealed his law to Israel through Moses, and it claims that modern Jews are the descendants of that people. Judaism accepts the “Christian Old Testament” as binding on them and of divine origin. Now Judaism is under the obligation, from its own Book of Leviticus, to offer animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin, as without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness. The destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. rendered the Judaic sacrifical system impossible. Leviticus demands sacrificial atonement for obtaining forgiveness of sin, but Judaism has no method for meeting that internal demand. This state of affairs has continued for two thousand years. For two millennia Jews have offered no sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin. For two millennia Judaism has been forced to admit by its own authoritative Scripture that no forgiveness of sin is possible without the shedding of blood, and yet has also been forced to admit that no shedding of blood can be performed in God’s appointed manner. Moreover the need for repeating the sacrifices showed all along the inadequacy and inherent transiency of the system, and pointed to the Messiah as the Lamb of God, whose sacrifice would end all sacrifices. The Leviticus system was meant to point to and to find its fulfillment in the sacrifice of the Messiah. And that is what happened. As God destroyed the Temple, with the advent of the Messiah all Jewish sacrifices ceased. But the Mosaic obligation to perform them still stands for the apostate Jewish people. This is why Judaism is caught in an internal conflict in this most crucial area. Jews proclaim the need for forgiveness of sin and the duty to do something about it in God’s appointed way, but they can’t deliver from within their own system the God-ordained method by which this might be accomplished. Christianity has no such internal conflict. Christians, as the real Jews, are specifically forbidden by God to offer sacrifices, and they are instead instructed to put their trust in the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. The Mosaic principle that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood still stands for Christians, but it is fulfilled as God intended, in the cross of Jesus. In the plan and providence of God, the Old Testament sacrifices were foreshadowings of the cross. When the real thing came along, the shadows were no longer needed. In fact, reverting to the shadows would constitute apostasy, since it would be evidence of a heart which does not trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. All this is not something I am making up as I go along, or that I have figured out last night, or that an unknown Polish sect affirms in its creed, but it is explicitly written down in the New Testament. One may refuse to believe it, but the point is that like it or not this has been the Christian position for the last 2000 years.
STEVEG: Your ethical basis as a fundamentalist for saying Bill did something bad seems to be the following: “Bill did a bad thing because the Bible says so. But that only matters IF the Bible is true and I don’t know that it is but I have to insist it is, EVEN WHEN it forces me to take positions that are ludicrous and laughable when measured against the knowledge people have from science, AND I have to insist that not only is it true by my particular interpretation of it is right AND I can allow no alternate ways to read it to enter my thoughts because my faith is so fragile that even considering another idea could cause it to topple. But because I MUST be right, then Bill shouldn’t have stolen that candy bar because now he’ll go to hell with Hitler and Stalin. Unless Hitler and Stalin said they were sorry to Jesus before they died (and Hitler said he was a Christian all along anyway), in which case they’re in heaven after murdering millions and poor Bill burns in hell forever for stealing a Clark Bar from the Qwikie Mart.” That’s how warped and unjust your position is.
ASALTYDOG: You introduce way too many elements that are completely foreign to my position. There is no element of doubt at all in the foundation of my position. This is yet another poor caricature. So whereas you feel compelled to build strawmen, my assessment of your position is argued, it is not a strawman at all, and it stands unrefuted.
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STEVEG and Mr OTT at #566:
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STEVEG to Mr. OTT: If I were a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist I would have no problem finding Hitler or Stalin guilty of evil. If I were a Muslim or a Jew I could do it by appealing to a variation of the same God you appeal to. “E.D. Ott: Also, this could prove right the universality of God’s law known by everybody, suppressed or happily accepted – or something in the middle, if you like.” SteveG: This is something I agree with and have consistently argued. The moral law is universal among humanity.
ASALTYDOG: But Steve, Mr Ott is talking about the law of the God of the Bible being known to, and obliging, all men. This is not “something you agree with and have consistently argued.”
STEVEG: There is only the one God. Different human ideas of religion have imposed human-invented attributes on that God. The real God is found (to the no doubt minuscule degree we humans can grasp) by peeling away those contradictory ideas and seeing what consistency remains.
ASALTYDOG: Where is Erasmus when you need him? Erasmus, if you read this, will you please come and shoot down this Sky Beast and silence this Sky Beast Worshipper for me? I am a bit busy. And while we wait for Erasmus to show up with his latest toilet paper analogies, Steve, let me tell you that your paragraph above is a small masterpiece in question begging nonsense. There is… How do you know? …only… How do you know? …the one God. How do you know? Different human ideas of religion… How do you know they are different? Hinduism says differences are an illusion. …have imposed… How do you know? …human-invented… How do you know? …attributes on that God. How do you know? The real God is found… How do you know? …(to the no doubt minuscule degree we humans can grasp)… How do you know it can be found at all? …by peeling away… Why? How do you know? …those contradictory ideas… How do you know they are contradictory? And whose knife does the peeling? How is the peeling performed? Some say there is one god and some say there are many gods: how do you peel away those contradictory ideas and still have god or gods at all? Some say Jesus Christ is the Son of God and some say he isn’t: how do you peel away those contradictory ideas without agreeing with one or the other? …and seeing what consistency remains. How do you know that what remains isn’t madness? How do you know that after all this peeling and peeling you won’t be left with nothing at all? And if so, what of your claim that there is only the one God? How do you know that? And if you can’t know it for sure, how can you have a warrant for ethics? The Holocaust was maybe, who knows, a wicked thing, and maybe, who knows, there is a difference between murdering little girls and a day at the beach.
STEVEG: The key question with regard to Christianity or any other proffered religious system is not whether it makes sense internally, but whether it accords with the outside world. It is not great feat to create an entirely self-consistent set of propositions. It is an entirely different matter to show them to match the real world.
ASALTYDOG: Steve, you beg the question when you say “the real world”. There is no consensus at all between us as to what this concept means, yet you naively use it to settle the debate. But it is the very concept which is under debate. The real world according to whom? Who says Christianity doesn’t accord with the real, outside world? Certainly not Christians. Evolutionists do, when they argue that, assuming Christianity is false, then the real world doesn’t accord with it. Big deal. But Christians say evolutionism doesn’t accord with the real, outside world. Now what? You are using the evolutionistic understanding of what the real world amounts to in order to prove that Christianity is inconsistent with it. You can say that Christianity fails to accord with the real world only if you have already decided that Christianity is false. But on what grounds did you decide that? Whenever I forced you to really, really, really look at the world from within Christianity you have granted — sorry, you have complained that all the problems vanish, and that there is no conflict between Christianity and the outside world. You did that the very first time you ever replied to me, and you did it several times after that, every time I asked you. You will deny that you did, but as all alert readers know, you did. Don’t say you didn’t, or I’ll grab you from the ear once again and I will force you to admit it again.
STEVEG: When your perception of your natural empathy tells you to murder millions, and the anger of the world is kindled against you as a result because their natural empathy tells them you are evil, something has gone wrong in your soul. That is not hard to see.
ASALTYDOG: What’s wrong with murdering millions? What’s the difference between murdering millions and a day at the beach? What obligation do you have not to murder millions? I believe I murdered millions of mosquitos in a recent holiday. Did I have an obligation not to do that? What obligation do I have to adjust my behavior in accordance with the imaginations and the grunts emitted by some mammals, even some millions of mammals? What if several mammals over here agree with me about murdering those other mammals over there? What is a soul? Where is Erasmus when you need him?
STEVEG: How does justice justify holding all humans responsible for the sin of one? Original Sin is an incoherent concept.
ASALTYDOG: Do you mean it is unjust? On what grounds? What’s the difference between holding all humans responsible for the sin of one and a day at the beach? But in Christianity, this doctrine is based on the concept of covenantal headship, and it is perfectly coherent.
STEVEG: All humans sin. This is obvious. There is no need to insist on belief in a myth about a paradisical garden and a talking snake to see that.
ASALTYDOG: Sin? What is sin? Where is Erasmus when you need him?
STEVEG: Leviticus demands the death penalty for homosexuality. Hitler carried it out. Was Hitler wrong?
ASALTYDOG: If Hitler, after a fair trial involving the presumption of innocence, evidence, and accountable witnesses, on the basis of a civil law that was in vigor at the time, acting as the appointed judge, found guilty certain individuals who had been accused of having committed homosexual acts, and condemned them to death, then he certainly did well.
STEVEG: The Bible teaches that killing is appropriate for a whole host of things, including disrespectful children. Is that the sort of state you would find good?
ASALTYDOG: Check your Bible. The disrespectful “children” are actually old enough to be arrogant dissolute drunkards, and Jesus Himself said we better take this law seriously. What’s the difference between killing disrespectful children and a day at the beach?
STEVEG: One wonders: If the Jews had been obedient, would God have left the Gentiles in the dark?
ASALTYDOG: As God’s decretive will is from eternity and immutable, it was not possible that the Jews had been obedient. Jesus Christ came in the world to die for His people, and His murderers freely chose to do whatever God had predestinated them to do. Still, on the level of pure speculation, the scenario you suggest is not the only one possible. You can speculate that the Jews, with Jesus Christ leading them, would have still spread the Good News to the whole world. But it does not make any sense, because that Good News then would not include the satisfaction for sin made by Jesus Christ on the cross. So there would be no Good News to spread. So the answer to your question is that history makes sense because God planned it the way He did. If God had planned it in some different way then probably it wouldn’t make sense, which is why He didn’t.
STEVEG: If God is one who bound all men over to disobedience, how can he send any to hell, then? They are disobedient because God made them so, just as he hardened Pharoah’s heart so that God would have reason to send more devastating plagues to Egypt.
ASALTYDOG: How? Because they wilfully disobey. It’s not that they would like to obey but God forces them to disobey. They disobey from their hearts. Indeed, they don’t want God to interfere with their disobedience. Their responsibility does not depend on their ability to obey. God does not owe to men anything. Those who are damned get what they deserve. The only sinners who are not treated justly are those who are saved, as they too deserve to be damned. Yet God is just in justifying sinners because He declares them righteous on the basis of Christ’s righteousness which is imputed to them through faith alone. This is why there is no boasting in heaven. God is the Creator, and God can do whatever He wants with His creatures.
STEVEG: In addition, this seems to contradict your view of Original Sin. Are we sinful because Adam and Eve succumbed to the serpent’s temptation, or because God has bound us over to disobedience? This is an area where I’m not seeing the internal consistency you speak of.
ASALTYDOG: No contradiction. God has bound us over to disobedience because Adam (not Eve) succumbed to the serpent’s temptation.
STEVEG: This is where the idea of eternal damnation fails. If God is perfectly just, then his justice must be perfect, yes? And eternal torment for a finite lifetime of sin is inherently unjust. The punishment far outweighs the crime.
ASALTYDOG: Says who? The little fellow who can’t tell the difference between punishments that far outweigh the crimes and a day at the beach? And you assume that the referent for the length in time of the punishment is the length in time of the crime, which is a pure guess and something nobody has claimed. For all you know the referent could be the infinity majesty of the Victim of the crime.
STEVEG: Either your God does not want to save everyone, even though he could … OR, your God wants to save everyone but is not able to. . . . I am pointing out a logical contradiction in the traditional view of the God of the Bible. (This traditional view, by the way, is not the only view.)
ASALTYDOG: God does not want to save everyone. What contradiction?
STEVEG: But this opportunity, if it requires explicit intellectual assent to propositional statements about Christ, is not open at all. Great numbers of people in the world, and even moreso in the past, never heard of Christ.
ASALTYDOG: More evidence that God does not want to save everyone.
STEVEG: And if you argue that many Jews will be saved for reasons of the original covenant, you have three. This is another of those places where the internal consistency you claim breaks down.
ASALTYDOG: No Jew was, is, or ever will be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ. The reasons God has to save a person may be more than one and I don’t see why they should of necessity be mutually exclusive. No inconsistency.
STEVEG: Eternal damnation is not just. It is like sentencing someone to death for stealing a Snickers bar.
ASALTYDOG: You are assuming that God’s glory is comparable in worth to a Snickers bar.
STEVEG: If God is omniscient, then he knew before Creation that man’s fall was inevitable. He even, according to the Eden story, set up the conditions that made it possible … else he would not have put the tree there and allowed the serpent in. If God created us knowing we would fall into sin, and did not plan to save all of us — without exception — then God knowingly created humanity knowing the vast majority of them would be destined to burn forever. Is that something you can call good? This is another, and perhaps the fatal, internal inconsistency.
ASALTYDOG: I completely agree with what you say, except your point about “the vast majority”, which depends on questions of eschatology and which may well turn out to be incorrect. And to answer your question, yes, I call this good. What fatal internal inconsistency?
STEVEG: It wasn’t until the church became a political entity under the dominion of the Roman empire that the idea of eternal damnation became useful as a tool of fear to keep people in line.
ASALTYDOG: I have always believed that Jesus was far ahead of his time.
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ASALTYDOG to STEVEG at #546: So to point out that somebody who calls himself a Christian also believes in evolution does not prove that it’s okay for a consistent Christian to believe in evolution, just like to point out that somebody who calls himself an evolutionist also believes in the biblical Flood does not prove that it’s okay for a consistent evolutionist to believe in the biblical Flood.
ERASMUS at #553: Tell that to ED Ott and the rest of your fellow travelers that use this fallacy regularly.”
ASALTYDOG: Sure. So, guys, get it? Now will you do me a favor, will you explain in detail to SteveG and the rest of your fellow travelers why Mr. Francis Collins is “not a proponent of ‘Genesis’” (#78)?
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ERASMUS at #553: Your source of authority changes with the challenge presented to it. In a recent comment you appeal to geology to save your Last Thursdayist Young Earth Position. You are simply and boringly dishonest.
ASALTYDOG: Thou assumest too much. When did I ever say that I have only one source of authority?
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ERASMUS at #553: Your shell game of ‘why is that wrong’ is something for four year olds (why, daddy?) and fledgling cultists to find provocative.
ASALTYDOG: I’d rather be a four year old asking smart questions than a dogmatic hypocrite who doesn’t answer them.
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ERASMUS at #553: “ASaltyDog to SteveG: He [Augustine] believed that the world is six thousand years old.” See my above reference to your inconsistent abuse of fallacious appeals to authority. Lincoln believed blacks were inferior, therefore democracy is flawed. Yawn.
ASALTYDOG: Thou art confused. Tell that to SteveG, since he was the one who was appealing to Augustine’s authority.
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ERASMUS at #553: “ASaltyDog to SteveG: How fervent a Christian [Francis Collins] is, and how honest, is revealed not in your recommendation but in the way he handles Christianity’s ultimate source of authority” However foolish Collins is, and that is certainly a non-zero quantity (given his three waterfall account of transcendental walt whitman style of understanding the profundity of the trinity), your reference to ‘how he handles christianity’s ultimate source of authority’ is a tribute to your willingness to distort your own holy scripture to fit your presumptions. your schemata does not give any direction for adjucating such different interpretations of authority.
ASALTYDOG: It most certainly does. And on what grounds did you call Solon (Mr Leavitt) a liar for “misrepresenting Francis Collins as a proponenent of ‘Genesis’ unless Solon means that ‘genesis evolution’ includes extremely liberal ‘interpretations’ of what is purportedly a revealed and inerrant source”?
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ERASMUS at #553: “ASaltyDog to SteveG: Islam and Judaism are mere Christian heresies, and they disqualify themselves as viable positions by their internal inconsistency.” Amazing. This liar is now claiming that cults predating his own cult are heretical.
ASALTYDOG: Islam and modern Judaism do not predate Christianity. Older Judaism is Christianity.
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ERASMUS at #553: “ASaltyDog to SteveG: So if the biblical position fits the bill, it is the only position that fits the bill. Otherwise it wouldn’t fit the bill.” Very well, that’s easy. It doesn’t. That is plainly obvious from the personal experience of most humans. That some humans feel the need to reify zeitgeists does not affirmatively argue for your mithra myth. You just want to be a member of a club.
ASALTYDOG: It doesn’t what? It doesn’t fit the bill? You agreed several times that my position is internally consistent: “It is also true that it [ASaltyDog's position] is internally consistent, and I have had no quarrel with this claim, because I see it as trivial” (#523). “The fact that you have stumbled upon one of these…[internally consistent positions]” (#530). You agreed that my position provides the prerequisites for science, logic and ethics every time you mocked my referring to “the Bibble, i buhleave it and that settles it” — much like SteveG grants the internal consistency of my position by complaining about it. That means that after all the dust you raise settles down, you do concede that my position fits the bill. Most of your remaining charges are just as many strawmen, failures to listen, and unwarranted assumptions about my beliefs. Your charge that my position is externally inconsistent is guilty of begging the question, as what you really mean is that it is inconsistent with your interpretation of the external world. Your charge that I object to the possibility that anything can be known at all is a misrepresentation of what I say, as I do affirm the contrary and I rather object that anything can be known at all starting from your position and without borrowing Christian concepts. Your charge that my position is antirealistic or solipsistic is based on your ignoring my denial that it is, on your ignoring the fact that I do affirm the correspondence between Christianity and the external world, on your ignoring that I do affirm that the external world points to the Triune God, on my invoking and accepting all the posts of other creationists in this forum as evidence for that, on your begging the question as you assume reality is what your position says it is, and on your refusal to show what empirical experience told you that we should have no guide other than personal empirical experience. The “personal experience of most humans” shows only that stuff happens: that’s all you have been able to show in this discussion. After all it was you who said you “don’t consider the argument that ‘Dad, all the other kids were doing it’ to be a worthwhile line of reasoning.” So since my position, built as it is on strict exclusivism, fits the bill, it is the only position that fits the bill. Otherwise it wouldn’t fit the bill. This is consistent with the fact that you failed to show how your position fits the bill, by failing to provide the prerequisites for science, logic and ethics, and by refusing to defend yourself from my charge that your position is internally inconsistent.
ERASMUS at #553: “ASaltyDog: Malcolm Muggeridge said the theory of evolution will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Folks, I see no reason why we can’t start writing those books already.” So, fools say all sorts of things.
ASALTYDOG: You don’t understand. You and your friends are proving his prediction correct.
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ERASMUS at #530/553:
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——ERASMUS at #507: I’d say you have demonstrated the solipcist position fairly well.
—ASALTYDOG at #526: You say all kinds of things, which are consistently either ridiculous or false. Usually they are both. As I deny that position, you must be speaking again of someone else. That’s a judgment of charity.
ERASMUS at #530: Assertions without evidence bore me. You deny at your convenience, O Unprincipled One.
ASALTYDOG: Erasmus my friend, don’t start away uneasy. If I deny a position I am not giving “assertions without evidence”. It is your job to find inconsistencies in what I say. You poor old sot, you see, it’s only me. I am not denying at my convenience, as any alert reader will confirm. I have been consistent throughout. You are making a fool of yourself.
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ERASMUS at #530: You absolutely did assert that anything can be known at all, for you denied that there is anything meaningful about our experience of the consistency of nature.
ASALTYDOG: I did not deny any such thing. I affirm the meaningfulness of our experience of the consistency of nature.
ERASMUS at #530: You deny that my experience of keys falling downward can yield any knowledge about generalizations.
ASALTYDOG: I do not deny it. I affirm it. How does it feel to be thick as a brick? What I deny is that your position provides the preconditions for the intelligibility of that experience and the validity of the generalizations you want to make out of it. What I affirm is that you secretly steal the Christian set of preconditions you need in order to make it all work.
ERASMUS at #530: Knowledge is a hierarchical system of generalization. You deny particulars as a consequence of your anti-realist presupposition.
ASALTYDOG: You do not know what you are talking about. I do not deny any such thing, and I do not have any anti-realist presupposition. My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout.
ERASMUS at #530: I don’t expect you to deal with his prima facie but instead you’ll likely quote jethro tull or huey lewis.
ASALTYDOG: I’ll do both.
ERASMUS at #530: Perhaps you might opt for a change and instead type a string of random text. Followed, of course, by your solipcist knee jerk plea for me to provide a justification why your answer is any different than any other answer.
ASALTYDOG: I prefer to continue with casting down imaginations and bringing into captivity every thought.
ERASMUS at #530: It is rather like dealing with the four year old child that wonders why about everything. If this is true then your last resort makes more sense, O Escapist.
ASALTYDOG: I’d rather be the four year old who asks the smart questions than the hypocritical dogmatist who can’t answer them.
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——ERASMUS at #507: “Chewbacca: I stick with Genesis because the assumptions beg the question.” Reality: No you don’t. More lies. You have formulated such a convoluted ontology that the statement “I’m going to the store for milk” is begging the question.
—ASALTYDOG at #526: This tells more about your failure to follow an argument than it does about my ontology. Careful readers will also notice once more your embarrassingly cheap and groundless accusations, and your legendary skill in missing the point and refusing to engage an argument. And calling me a liar has lost the sting after your explanation that this expression has for you mere acoustic and linguistic overtones, and it doesn’t involve anything as Christian as obligations to behave in a certain way, or, God forbid, sin. So I take it as a compliment, as it reminds me of the failure of your view to account for ethics.
ERASMUS at #530: It never had any sting for you, O Prevaricator, for you are Lying For Jesus. If you are dishonest enough to say that ‘obligations to behave in a certain way’ has anything to do with christianism then you are dishonest enough to do about anything. Ethics have already been accounted for: they are social conventions. They are not and have never been absolute: such ontologies are just wish fulfillment.
ASALTYDOG: Conventions? Are not and have never been absolute? So they may change from time to time, from week to week, from day to day, from minute to minute, from society to society, from neighborhood to neighborhood, from household to household, from room to room? How does it feel, skating away on the thin ice of the new day without any assurance that what was wrong yesterday may be okay today, or vice versa? It was a new day yesterday, but it’s an old day now. Why do I have an obligation to obey any of these conventions at any time? Who decides what the conventions are? On what ethical grounds? What if there’s disagreement? If the conventions of the society where you live required that you love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength, and that you quit using His name in vain, would you have an obligation to do so? Would you submit to it? Why? Given your view of ethics, what is the difference between murdering a little girl and a day at the beach? You meet the stares, you’re unaware that your doings aren’t done. And you laugh most ruthlessly as you tell us what not to be. But how are we supposed to see where we should run?
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——ERASMUS at #507: In your system, you don’t have any logical basis for supposing the argument that this is true since your three headed beast could very easily fool you into thinking you have gone to the store while you are truly in Hell, and only his faith and mercy (what color are faith and mercy? How much do they weigh?) give you any reason to suppose that you are not really a brain in a vat or one of the non-elect.
—ASALTYDOG at #526: No amount of shamelessly blasphemous yelling and pitiful banging fists on the table can provide a spine to this comatosely pathetic argument masquerading as an internal critique of Christianity. Only God’s faith(fulness?) and mercy give me any reason to suppose I am not really a brain in a vat or one of the non-elect? You sound like SteveG, forever complaining that Christianity makes sense, while imagining he is raising some sort of rational objection against it. You could just as well dismiss the idea that Snow White was the first feature film by Walt Disney, since there’s only the fact that it comes first chronologically that gives people any reason to suppose his first movie wasn’t Pinocchio. Yeah, of course you can say that Snow White was the first Disney movie, but that’s only because it comes before the others. Yeah, of course you Christians can suppose you are not really a brain in a vat or one of the non-elect, but that’s only because of God’s faithfulness and mercy. Wow guys, my head almost exploded. And this from the guy who calls me Chewbacca. I’d rather let him call me however he wants, as long as he keeps showing he’s the real deal.
ERASMUS at #530: WRT Snow White, as I have already mentioned, there is an infinite number of internally consistent philosophies that are externally inconsistent. The fact that you have stumbled upon one of these is no great testament to anything other than your wish fulfillment. Your solution to the external inconsistency of your contrived anti-realism is that if cornered, the bible trumps reason.
ASALTYDOG: With this post masquerading as a critique you actually retract the nonsense you wrote in the previous post at #507, you grant my point at #527, and you once again concede the internal consistency of Christianity.
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——ERASMUS at #507: When you deny empiricism, this is the result, O Fount-Of-Not-Knowing.
—ASALTYDOG at #526: Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don’t do that at all. Denying certain forms of empiricism is not at all the same thing as denying knowledge from experience, from sensory perception, from evidence, and from problem-solving. Once again, as a Christian I affirm these ways of gathering knowledge. I have never, ever denied this, and I have always, always affirmed it, in spite of your pitiful attempts to obliterate this fact.
ERASMUS at #530: Anyone who has read this thread knows that you are, again, being less than honest. Your statements imply that you are completely fine with this characterization of you, as you are a martyr for the baby jesus.
ASALTYDOG: Not at all. Anyone who has read this thread knows that you haven’t. What I have written is open for inspection. With these comments you prove that you are completely clueless. You have not paid attention to what I have written, and you do not understand my position at all. Therefore your mocking sounds hollow.
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—ASALTYDOG at #526: Indeed, I affirm that it is precisely by presupposing the existence of the Triune God that it is possible to establish the reliability of those sources of knowledge.
ERASMUS at #530: Indeed, you have affirmed no such thing. You have simply asserted such a thing, and absolutely refused to demonstrate how this could be so. Indeed, when pressed you have resorted to a convoluted set of religious convictions masquerading as empirical entities. And I expect no more from you than this: argument by assertion, chewbacca defense, a barrage of straw man non sequitors followed by tu quoque and is-ought convolutions. You are a study in logical fallacy.
ASALTYDOG: Again this is a standing testimony to your inability to follow an argument. I may make you feel but I can’t make you think. You have been in such a hurry to attack me that you have never stopped to follow what I have been saying. We ran the race and the race was won by running slowly. And on the contrary, you are the one who has absolutely refused to demonstrate how you can establish the reliability of your sources of knowledge. When tension starts mounting and you’ve lost count of the pennies you’ve missed, just try hard and see why they’re not worrying me, they’re last on my list. Your defeat is total, complete, devastating.
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Each to his own way I’ll go mine.
Best of luck with what you find.
But for your own sake remember times
we used to know.
Let me bring you songs from the wood:
to make you feel much better than you could know.
Dust you down from tip to toe.
Show you how the garden grows.
Hold you steady as you go.
Join the chorus if you can:
it’ll make of you an honest man.
Let me bring you love from the field:
poppies red and roses filled with summer rain.
To heal the wound and still the pain
that threatens again and again
as you drag down every lover’s lane.
Life’s long celebration’s here.
I’ll toast you all in penny cheer.
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ERASMUS and STEVE at #556/560/561:
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ERASMUS to STEVEG at #556: Steve how about this one: Bill was wrong to steal that candy bar because if he was right, I would still be in my sins, and I am not in my sins, therefore Bill was wrong. Fascinating game.
ASALTYDOG: Yes, that is a slightly compact but perfectly sound argument, although by no means the only one I can offer from my position proving that Bill was wrong. See, my chainsaw is so overwhelmingly the winner of the competition that even my opponents can turn on the engine, press a button, and prove to the audience that it cuts exactly straight. Efficient, easy to use, and I give it for free. Now your turn, guys. What is the difference between stealing a candy bar and a day at the beach?
STEVEG to SPINOZA at #560: he [ASaltyDog] just has the absurd notion that his prior belief in his book forces him to reject the empirical evidence in favor of the book. Rather that reinterpret the book in the light of empirical evidence. It’s a fascinating pathology, really.
ASALTYDOG: You gave me no empirical evidence to reject, only your assumption-loaded worldview-driven interpretation of some raw data that has reached your sensory system. And of course two can play that game. You have the absurd notion that your prior belief in your Theory of Evolution forces you to reject the empirical evidence in favor of the Theory of Evolution, rather that reinterpret the Theory of Evolution in the light of empirical evidence. It’s a fascinating pathology, really. And haven’t you heard of Dr. Frank C. S. Cowlings? He is a brilliant theologian at Fullest Theological Seminary, and he is well-known for his comprehensive study on the Book of Genesis. He believes in the Genesis account of a recent creation and a worldwide flood. He is also a fervent evolutionist. His recent book The Language of Darwin: A Theologian Presents Evidence for Evolution shows, in very plain layman’s language, how a recent creation not only does not conflict with his faith in evolution, it strengthens it. It does not deny or diminish the role of mutations in evolution. To the contrary, it reveals how marvelous and complex life is in a way never understood before the past couple of centuries. Cowlings basically argues that in the Origin of the Species Darwin really meant that God created everything in six 24-hour days only 6000 years ago. Darwin’s The Origin of the Species was not written as a scientific treatise. It is a brilliant and profound basically poetic conception of God’s creation that does not at all contradict the Genesis story. (For the record, I personally believe that while Mr. Cowlings may be a good theologian, he does not know what he is talking about when he writes about Darwin. But he does have a following. Go figure.)
ERASMUS to STEVEG at #561: steve, that and he somehow thinks that experiential learning and theories rooted in empiricism are the direct descendants of taking his magic book for absolute truth. i am still chuckling about that one. chutzpah, thy name is saul.
ASALTYDOG: Mr. Ott, have you noticed how Steve and Erasmus somehow think that logic, science and ethics are the direct descendants of taking their magic personal empirical experience for absolute truth? I am still chuckling about that one. Chutzpah, thy name is Steve Erasmus.
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“ASALTYDOG: If Hitler, after a fair trial involving the presumption of innocence, evidence, and accountable witnesses, on the basis of a civil law that was in vigor at the time, acting as the appointed judge, found guilty certain individuals who had been accused of having committed homosexual acts, and condemned them to death, then he certainly did well.”
Christo-fascism at its finest…Just like Martin Luther against the Jews. And some have the nerve to blame Hitler on Darwin?!!!
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Spinoza at #576, I know you don’t have a basis for saying homosexuality is evil. Do you have a basis for saying “Christo-fascism” (whatever it is) is evil? And this has nothing whatever to do with Jews.
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Killing people for their sexual orientation is unjust and evil. Take an ethics class!! It’s clear that you have no innate sense of right and wrong, with or without a bible.
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Lies are ok – murder is ok – as long as it’s in the name of the Lord.
You are the worst kind of “true believer.” One whose ideology has effaced all sense of morality.
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You profess to have a superior “reason” for ethics, yet you seem to be sadly lacking in ethics!
Hopeful monster, indeed!
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I don’t know about anyone else, but I would really like to believe in magic and fairies and angels and ghosts. But I don’t.
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Salty Dog at #572:
You can speculate that the Jews, with Jesus Christ leading them, would have still spread the Good News to the whole world. But it does not make any sense, because that Good News then would not include the satisfaction for sin made by Jesus Christ on the cross. So there would be no Good News to spread. So the answer to your question is that history makes sense because God planned it the way He did. If God had planned it in some different way then probably it wouldn’t make sense, which is why He didn’t.
So the Jews in their disobedience fulfilled God’s plan … and then just a little later you said:
STEVEG: Either your God does not want to save everyone, even though he could … OR, your God wants to save everyone but is not able to. . . . I am pointing out a logical contradiction in the traditional view of the God of the Bible. (This traditional view, by the way, is not the only view.)
ASALTYDOG: God does not want to save everyone. What contradiction?
And then you added: No Jew was, is, or ever will be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ.
So … God made the world and all the people in it, knowing ahead of time (because he is omniscient) that most of those people were destined for eternal torment … then he spent a couple of millennia telling the Jews they were his Chosen People, knowing full well that they would be disobedient and burn in hell … just stringing them along until they played their role in his game?
Some God you got there.
Are you sure about this part? No Jew was, is, or ever will be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ.
‘Cos Paul … you’ve heard of Paul, yes? … Paul doesn’t seem to agree.
Romans 11: 11-12: Again I ask: Did they [the Jews] stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
Romans 11:28-29: As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Later on you said:
STEVEG: God knowingly created humanity knowing the vast majority of them would be destined to burn forever. Is that something you can call good? This is another, and perhaps the fatal, internal inconsistency.
ASALTYDOG: I completely agree with what you say, except your point about “the vast majority”, which depends on questions of eschatology and which may well turn out to be incorrect. And to answer your question, yes, I call this good. What fatal internal inconsistency?
You admit your God’s love is imperfect, because he doesn’t wish to save everyone. But a perfect God can have no imperfection. Your belief is therefore incoherent.
Game over.
‘Cause I’m already gone
And I’m feeling strong
I will sing this vict’ry song
Woo hoo hoo
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SPINOZA at #578/579/580: Killing people for their sexual orientation is unjust and evil. Take an ethics class!! It’s clear that you have no innate sense of right and wrong, with or without a bible. Lies are ok – murder is ok – as long as it’s in the name of the Lord. You are the worst kind of “true believer.” One whose ideology has effaced all sense of morality. You profess to have a superior “reason” for ethics, yet you seem to be sadly lacking in ethics! Hopeful monster, indeed!
ASALTYDOG: Yawn. Unjust? Evil? Right? Wrong? Morality? Ethics? Sounds like a Christian, moves like a Christian, smells like a Christian. So Spinoza, let me guess, you are a Christian, right? Because if you aren’t, you’ll have to explain where you got those tools from, and where you were last Friday evening between 19:00 and 19:30. You have the right to remain silent, and anything you say can and will be used against you.
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STEVEG at #582:
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STEVEG: So the Jews in their disobedience fulfilled God’s plan
ASALTYDOG: Yes.
STEVEG: So … God made the world and all the people in it, knowing ahead of time (because he is omniscient) that most of those people were destined for eternal torment …
ASALTYDOG: Yes.
STEVEG: then he spent a couple of millennia telling the Jews they were his Chosen People,
ASALTYDOG: Yes.
STEVEG: knowing full well that they would be disobedient and burn in hell
ASALTYDOG: Who’s “they”? There is a difference between “the Jews” and the generation of Jews that rejected the Messiah. Those Jews from that generation that rejected Him were lost. But the faithful Jews from all ages B.C and A.D. were certainly saved.
STEVEG: … just stringing them along until they played their role in his game?
ASALTYDOG: Who’s “they”? Individual Jews were saved or lost depending on their faith. The Old Testament is full of stories of faithful individual Jews. So is the New Testament.
STEVEG: Some God you got there.
ASALTYGOD: May His name be blessed forever.
STEVEG: Are you sure about this part? No Jew was, is, or ever will be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ. ‘Cos Paul … you’ve heard of Paul, yes? … Paul doesn’t seem to agree. [quotes Romans 11:11-12, 28-29]
ASALTYDOG: I am sure about that part. I have heard of Paul. I fail to see how Paul disagrees.
STEVEG: You admit your God’s love is imperfect, because he doesn’t wish to save everyone. But a perfect God can have no imperfection. Your belief is therefore incoherent.
ASALTYDOG: I do not admit anything of the sort. That is a non sequitur. Whoever said that in order for God’s love to be perfect He must save everybody? What is incoherent is your reasoning.
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Too late Dog, I already won.
A God who doesn’t save everyone is not only imperfect in love but also in justice. This is especially so if he, as you admit, doesn’t even give them all a fair chance to make a choice (those who never heard of Christ.)
Perfection cannot have imperfection.
Check.
And mate.
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Sweet Baby Jesus I thought this thread had expired. Shoulda checked it again, Saul has a penchant for using a chapter when a paragraph would suffice (actually, his argument can be reduced to one short phrase. I leave it to the reader.)
I’m going to muck around with different quote styles as I try to figure out this stupid format.
Chewbacca said
Why should I consider that there is any other guide? You have offered no evidence other than “If the bible weren’t true then I woudl still be in my sins, but I am not in my sins so the bible is true”. You are fundamentally dishonest. Just pointing it out sweetheart, you are the type of guy who gives away broken toys to kids.
more chewbacca (nice ad homs by the way. not winning you points on merit)
Since Christian creationism alone accounts for science, facts must be interpreted according to Christian creationism.
Again this is just your assertion. And since you are a relativist in hiding, you don’t attempt to demonstrate this. You just claim it to be true, just as you claim that there is any other valid epistemology. Just words.
Of course there are no theory-independent observations. What you fail to provide is the evidence that is ignored by evilutionists. Just sweeping handwaving claims that it exists. Your screeds are content-free, as they are one long reification of ‘we don’t know what we don’t know so therefore I invent another way of knowing’.
see?
Between evolutionism and Christianity only the latter provides the foundation for assuming the uniformity of nature, for logic, and for ethics, which are all essential for doing science
Wrong, liar. The consilience of billions of observations provide the foundation for this. Your capricious idols do nothing to provide this. Of course donkeys could talk if your sky beasts were true (and also if any number of other sky beasts were true, your account is not privileged by anything other than your own assertion). But you have not and will not demonstrate that your account of sky beasts is true by evidence, just navel-gazing deductions premised on falsity.
There is no element of doubt at all in the foundation of my position.
And this you claim as a mantle. Beautiful, O Ignorant One.
Older Judaism is Christianity
So you claim, again, and expect that to be enough. I’ve heard many variants of this foolishness before, including that Old Regular Baptists are the first and True Church. All predicated upon some muddled mythmaker making bland assertions. I suggest you take up the issue of whether or not Solon is misrepresenting Genesis with Solon himself, since he and you are at irreconcilable odds regarding this point. From my view it is clear that you are both barking at the moon.
As if you had not noticed, there is an infinite number of internally consistent positions. This is no criterion. See Kuhn yourself.
Now I come to Ian Anderson. Very well, this is to your credit, as that was music and so much of the Eagles was not. If you did indeed listen to this album, surely you understood the meaning of the rest of the songs. Apparently not, O Salty Dogma. Now that I read further, minus points for bringing it up yourself.
How does it feel to be thick as a brick? What I deny is that your position provides the preconditions for the intelligibility of that experience and the validity of the generalizations you want to make out of it. What I affirm is that you secretly steal the Christian set of preconditions you need in order to make it all work.
You affirm just as you assert and you never provide any evidence other than your own affirmations and assertions. The christians set of preconditions you claim is full of the sun going around the earth and vegetarian velociraptors. In short, your claim falls short of the truth, which is that YOU have co-opted the Whig Interpretation of History as a thin veneer of a magical apologetic.
Why do I have an obligation to obey any of these conventions at any time? Who decides what the conventions are? On what ethical grounds? What if there’s disagreement? If the conventions of the society where you live required that you love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength, and that you quit using His name in vain, would you have an obligation to do so? Would you submit to it? Why? Given your view of ethics, what is the difference between murdering a little girl and a day at the beach? You meet the stares, you’re unaware that your doings aren’t done. And you laugh most ruthlessly as you tell us what not to be. But how are we supposed to see where we should run?
Simple. Go to jail. For you, the only thing keeping you from doing these things is your sky-daddy. I am glad that you have him, because otherwise you’d be in trouble with your fellow primates.
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Station Break, this is a Public Service Announcement for an advertisement of how to use the Chewbacca Distraction. Ladies and gentlemen I give you Saul T Dogma.
ERASMUS to STEVEG at #556: Steve how about this one: Bill was wrong to steal that candy bar because if he was right, I would still be in my sins, and I am not in my sins, therefore Bill was wrong. Fascinating game.
ASALTYDOG: Yes, that is a slightly compact but perfectly sound argument, although by no means the only one I can offer from my position proving that Bill was wrong. See, my chainsaw is so overwhelmingly the winner of the competition that even my opponents can turn on the engine, press a button, and prove to the audience that it cuts exactly straight. Efficient, easy to use, and I give it for free. Now your turn, guys. What is the difference between stealing a candy bar and a day at the beach?
And he expects someone to take that seriously. Back to you.
*************************************************
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STEVEG: A God who doesn’t save everyone is not only imperfect in love but also in justice. This is especially so if he, as you admit, doesn’t even give them all a fair chance to make a choice (those who never heard of Christ.) Perfection cannot have imperfection. Check. And mate.
ASALTYDOG: You are imposing on the God of the Bible concepts and standards of justice and love that are alien to the Bible. They must come from somewhere else. Where do they come from?
You are not showing any internal inconsistency in Christianity. You are merely showing that Christianity is inconsistent with some external ideology or religion or series of visions you had. Big deal. For your information, Christianity is also in contradiction with Aztec religion, Italian fascism, and certain practices of the Siberian shamans. So much the worse for them.
Sinners are damned for their sins, not for failure to hear about Christ or for failure to make a choice. God does not owe sinners one blessed thing. If someone is not born again, he won’t believe in Christ even if saw Christ healing the blind, let alone if he “heard about Him”. Yet every man that the Father gives to the Son will come to Christ, even if he lives in the Borneo jungle. But greater knowledge brings greater responsibility, and that brings greater punishment. You are in great danger, my friend.
I told you before that you are unable to do an internal critique of your neighbor’s position. You haven’t learned since then. And you can’t play chess either.
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The internal critique is made and devastating. No loving or just father would create a child knowing the child’s ultimate destiny was eternal torment.
Your Bible claims that God not only has love, but is love. (1 John 4:8.) Your Bible claims that “all his ways are just” (Deuteronomy 32:4)And “There is no injustice with God” (Romans 9:14).
Of the following two statements, only one can be true:
God is perfect love and perfect justice.
or
God creates at least some humans fully intending for them to spend eternity in torment.
You can only have one, yet you demand both.
At this point you can either lay day your king and concede defeat, or can you smash the board and send the pieces scattering.
Either way, you are checkmated.
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er … “lay day” should be “lay down,” of course.
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ERASMUS at #586:
___
ERASMUS: ASaltyDog: Tell me, what empirical experience told you that you should have no guide other than personal empirical experience?” Why should I consider that there is any other guide?
ASALTYDOG: You are not answering the question. What empirical experience told you that you should have no guide other than personal empirical experience?
ERASMUS: “ASaltyDog: Since Christian creationism alone accounts for science, facts must be interpreted according to Christian creationism. Again this is just your assertion. And since you are a relativist in hiding, you don’t attempt to demonstrate this. You just claim it to be true, just as you claim that there is any other valid epistemology. Just words.
ASALTYDOG: Not true. That is the conclusion at the end of the argument.
ERASMUS: Of course there are no theory-independent observations. What you fail to provide is the evidence that is ignored by evilutionists.
ASALTYDOG: You have that evidence under your nose all the time. In fact, your nose is part of that evidence. All creation is evidence for the Triune God. The resurrection of Christ is evidence for Him. The fact that you have logic, science and ethics at all is evidence for Him. You swim in that evidence. You are like a fish who’s saying “Water? What water?” But because as you grant there are no theory-independent observations you reinterpret this evidence and refuse to believe that this evidence points to God. But the evidence is there. And as I said two can play this game. Show me the evidence for evolution that is ignored by the creationists.
ERASMUS: “ASaltyDog: Between evolutionism and Christianity only the latter provides the foundation for assuming the uniformity of nature, for logic, and for ethics, which are all essential for doing science.” Wrong, liar. The consilience of billions of observations provide the foundation for this.
ASALTYDOG: The consilience of billions of theory-dependent observations merely provide the foundation for saying that the theory is being applied extensively and interdisciplinary, not for saying that the theory is true. Billions of observations, all the king’s horses and all the king’s men won’t give you back science, logic and ethics, after the theory of evolution pushed Humpty Dumpty off the wall. The Triune God of the Bible definitely provides in His special revelation the foundation for logic, science and ethics, as you continuously grant by way of mocking it.
ERASMUS: Older Judaism is Christianity. So you claim, again, and expect that to be enough.
ASALTYDOG: I claimed it because I argued it. And aren’t you assuming just as much when you mock me with the Old Testament? I am not a Jew.
ERASMUS: I’ve heard many variants of this foolishness before, including that Old Regular Baptists are the first and True Church. All predicated upon some muddled mythmaker making bland assertions.
ASALTYDOG: Oh yeah. Guilt by association rhetoric.
ERASMUS: I suggest you take up the issue of whether or not Solon is misrepresenting Genesis with Solon himself, since he and you are at irreconcilable odds regarding this point. From my view it is clear that you are both barking at the moon.
ASALTYDOG: That is not the way you spoke to him at #78. You are a dishonest coward.
ERASMUS: As if you had not noticed, there is an infinite number of internally consistent positions.
ASALTYDOG: Pick one then. It must be easy.
ERASMUS: ASaltyDog: How does it feel to be thick as a brick? What I deny is that your position provides the preconditions for the intelligibility of that experience and the validity of the generalizations you want to make out of it. What I affirm is that you secretly steal the Christian set of preconditions you need in order to make it all work.” You affirm just as you assert and you never provide any evidence other than your own affirmations and assertions.
ASALTYDOG: Yes, I do affirm, and I have repeatedly asked you to tell how you make this work from your position with your own tools, which you have been unable to explain, which brings me to affirm again. You don’t see which way the argument flows.
ERASMUS: The christians set of preconditions you claim is full of the sun going around the earth and vegetarian velociraptors. In short, your claim falls short of the truth, which is that YOU have co-opted the Whig Interpretation of History as a thin veneer of a magical apologetic.
ASALTYDOG: I have heard several opinions about the Eagles’ Tequila Sunrise, but I have never heard anybody saying that “it falls short of the truth.” It can’t be that you simply hate the Eagles, because even Ian Anderson sings “Could it stop the sunrise hearing you weep?” And do you mean you have conclusive proof that there never were any vegetarian velociraptors?
ERASMUS: ASaltyDog: Why do I have an obligation to obey any of these conventions at any time? Who decides what the conventions are? On what ethical grounds? What if there’s disagreement? If the conventions of the society where you live required that you love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength, and that you quit using His name in vain, would you have an obligation to do so? Would you submit to it? Why? Given your view of ethics, what is the difference between murdering a little girl and a day at the beach? You meet the stares, you’re unaware that your doings aren’t done. And you laugh most ruthlessly as you tell us what not to be. But how are we supposed to see where we should run? Simple. Go to jail. For you, the only thing keeping you from doing these things is your sky-daddy. I am glad that you have him, because otherwise you’d be in trouble with your fellow primates.
ASALTYDOG: You don’t answer the questions. I am not asking for the motivation.
ERASMUS: Station Break, this is a Public Service Announcement for an advertisement of how to use the Chewbacca Distraction. Ladies and gentlemen I give you Saul T Dogma. [playback of a conversation illustrating how even unbelievers can come up with sound arguments for ethics using Christian concepts, but can't provide the prerequisites for ethics when left to their own devices] And he expects someone to take that seriously. Back to you.
ASALTYDOG: I don’t understand why you do this, but thanks for reminding everybody that you are the loser who can’t explain the difference between stealing a candy bar and a day at the beach.
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STEVEG at #588: The internal critique is made and devastating. No loving or just father would create a child knowing the child’s ultimate destiny was eternal torment.
ASALTYDOG: Wrong. The relation between God and man is that of Creator and creature, not father and child. A loving and just potter has certainly power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour. The metaphor of father and child is used in the Bible to refer to the relation between God and believers, and it is precisely in that context that the Bible assures believers that nothing can ever separate us from the love of God.
STEVEG: Your Bible claims that God not only has love, but is love. (1 John 4:8.) Your Bible claims that “all his ways are just” (Deuteronomy 32:4) And “There is no injustice with God” (Romans 9:14).
Of the following two statements, only one can be true:
God is perfect love and perfect justice.
or
God creates at least some humans fully intending for them to spend eternity in torment.
You can only have one, yet you demand both.
ASALTYDOG: Wrong. How is the fact that God “creates at least some humans fully intending for them to spend eternity in torment” unjust? Can’t the potter do what he wants with the vessels he creates? Would it be unjust for him to create a container for urine? How is it unjust to punish sinners? God is love, yes. And in this was manifested the love of God toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. If you want to do an internal critique of Christianity, let the Bible define its own terms.
STEVEG: At this point you can either lay day your king and concede defeat, or can you smash the board and send the pieces scattering. Either way, you are checkmated.
ASALTYDOG: Or I can simply tell you to give the board a second look. Chess demands concentration and carefulness, Steve. You are way too hasty and careless for chess.
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If you want a rematch, I’ll think about it.
God declares his love for mankind at many points. In several places, it explicitly states that God does not wish ANY to miss out on salvation. One might argue whether that means salvation is given to all or only desired for all, but the ALL is beyond dispute. (2 Peter 3:9)
Did all people die in Adam? Then ALL people are made alive in Christ. Not all except the ones God chooses not to invite. (1 Corinthians 15:22)
You have misunderstood your God. And you remain in your checkmate.
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STEVEG at #592: God declares his love for mankind at many points. In several places, it explicitly states that God does not wish ANY to miss out on salvation. One might argue whether that means salvation is given to all or only desired for all, but the ALL is beyond dispute. (2 Peter 3:9)
ASALTYDOG: Wrong. Peter defines who the “all” are. He draws a contrast between the ungodly men who perish (immediately preceding verses) and the “beloved” (”you”) whom God does not want to perish. The end of the world won’t come, Peter is saying, until God has gathered all his elect — the sheep (not the wolves) of John 10.
STEVEG: Did all people die in Adam? Then ALL people are made alive in Christ. Not all except the ones God chooses not to invite. (1 Corinthians 15:22)
ASALTYDOG: Wrong. The context shows that Paul has in mind the resurrection of believers only. The very next verse defines those “in Christ” as those who belong to Him.
Steve, I won’t go through the Bible here. There are billions of Reformed Christian websites providing answers to this kind of objections. Farewell.
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SteveG (#592): God declares his love for mankind at many points.
Yes. This is true. John writes: “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” (1. John 4)
Do you believe in this love? Instead, you have no other idea than to behead God whenever you hear of Him.
Again John: “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world.”
But if ASaltyDog or I tell you about the Saviour, you keep running into the opposite direction.
John: “If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.”
The fought is fought on this level, Steve! Do you acknowledge Him as your Saviour? Do you acknowledge that He has more to give than only hell? Why does He offer Heaven? For massmurders as much as for Snicker bar stealers. You can keep running for the rest of your life, escaping from answering this question, escaping from the rescue boat. You turn to Erasmus saying God – a jerk if He existed! – has damned us for hell. That what looks like a rescue boat is just a fata morgana, even though it fits the bill.
(As an addition, I’m sure you know what love is in the question “Do you believe in this love?” It is the demonstrative pronoun “this” which makes you either accept or reject “love”. We don’t want your concept, that is of as little help as my concept. We desperately need HIS concept of love. And also, you can’t prove the Bible wrong with confusing His love with your love. In chess and in theology, we play according to His rules.)
Certainly, Erasmus and many others – remember the quantity! – will swim away and give God the finger. For His consistency, for His reliability, for His warning, for His glory, for HIS LOVE. Do you now understand the concept of Original Sin? Do you now understand that “because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed”? (Romans 2:5)
SteveG (#566): In your scenario, it was he who put the hole in the Estonia’s hull in the first place.
No, Steve. It wasn’t He, it is all of us. God is good. God is nothing but good, eternally good. That is why my big idol, Martin Luther said: “If God told me to eat the dung from off the streets, not only would I eat it, but I would know it was good for me.”
But God offers a bottle of red wine!
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ASD at #593: Steve, I won’t go through the Bible here. There are billions of Reformed Christian websites providing answers to this kind of objections. Farewell.
Funny how you suddenly don’t have a flood of words for me.
Your problem is this: If God wills to save everyone but can’t, God is not all-powerful.
If God doesn’t will to save everyone, God is not all-loving.
But the Bible says God is both all-powerful and all-loving.
The book of Job uses the pot/potter analogy in a rhetorical question from God. The entire rest of the Bible makes it clear that that isn’t how God actually feels.
Now I realize your mind has been corrupted by Reformed Theology, the idea that God calls only some to repentance. You have to read Scripture through the filter of your tradition, not for what Scripture actually, plainly says. I ask you to seriously consider why you believe that any man no matter how learned has any right to put limits on God’s grace.
My own Methodist background is, of course, much more Arminian in flavor, which may explain a lot of our fundamental disagreement even in concept. I grew up learning that grace was available to all and dependent only on our choice … not God’s choice to call or predestine us. Jesus said “If I am lifted up, I will draw all men to me.” Nor “I will draw a small number of predestined men to me.”
I’m sure you can explain that one away too.
You are still in your spins.
And you are still checkmated. Your dogs have been sent fleeing by my bear and you are left uncomprehending how your day at the beach could suddenly go so wrong.
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E.D Ott at #594: Certainly, Erasmus and many others – remember the quantity! – will swim away and give God the finger. For His consistency, for His reliability, for His warning, for His glory, for HIS LOVE. Do you now understand the concept of Original Sin? Do you now understand that “because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed”? (Romans 2:5)
As are you, Ott.
I am sure you take that verse to refer to eternal damnation. It does not. If it does, then the whole thought (2:1-11) is teaching salvation by works, as Paul says, God will give to each person according to what he has done. If you do good you get the reward, but if you do evil you get the punishment.
Certainly Paul did not believe salvation came by works and neither do Christians. So that cannot be what this passage is about.
(To obliquely answer your main question, I am not worried about my soul.)
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Steve, thanks for showing at the last minute that Arminian Methodism is incoherent. Bye bye.
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… and the defeated, fleeing adversary fires one final impotent shot harmlessly into the sky.
Safe travels.
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Please, let me have the last word.
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SaltyTaliban- So Spinoza, let me guess, you are a Christian, right?
No, I am not!
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p.s. I suppose I wouldn’t be averse to identifying with some of the more reasonable forms of Christianity, and I wouldn’t feel terribly out of place at a UCC, Anglican, Congregational, or even some orthodox churches, but the nonsense and unethical beliefs of fundy “Christians” like Ott or Salty has convinced me that it’s better to eschew all identity with the mess that has become American Christianity.
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shh… we’re letting him have the last word.
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I don’t see why anyone would consider letting someone who stole the first word have the last word.
All that Saul has done here is fundamentally beg the question of why anyone should consider his viewpoint. He has been unable to offer any positive evidence for his view, except for convoluted logical arguments that violate his own assumptions.
That said, Saul’s knowledge of 70s-80s crappy rock is noteworthy. I will be more impressed when he discusses Don Reno and the effect of WW2 on the ultimate progression of bluegrass music. That, or to deal with the fact that his ontology means that one can never know if the lights will come on or the keys will drop into the parking lot. Either one.
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Erasmus, finally, in extra time, amongst your usual throwaway slogans I find something worthwhile: I love bluegrass too. Have a nice day.
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