Irrelevant Christianity
To be in, but not of, the world is a commonly heard admonition among Christians. Continuing with my exploration of the chief points made in UnChristian, the authors find that many young people perceive the church as not only sheltered from the real world, but separated from the mysterious and awe-inspiring God of the Bible. In the first instance, they perceive that Christians are neither intellectual nor culture-shapers, but rather people who huddle in enclaves and denounce outsiders. In the second instance, they describe the Christian services they have attended as frequently boring and devoid of spiritual vitality.
Of course, the so-called Christians who answered this survey aren’t really Christians, and can therefore be disregarded. As for the non-Christians, well, they’re biased against Christianity from the start, so we can ignore them too.
Just thought I’d go ahead and write a basic script for a number of comments that will follow this post. Feel free to copy and paste the above to save yourselves time.
But back to the book. A man I respect a great deal, Mike Metzger of the Clapham Institute, captures the challenge facing Christians quite nicely:
“…if you only practice purity apart from proximity to culture, you inevitably become pietistic, separatist, and conceited. If you live in close proximity to the culture without also living in a holy manner, you become indistinguishable from fallen culture and useless in God’s kingdom.”
I used to think it was less perilous to my soul to err on the former side — if I only interact with Christians, and only read approved Christian books, and only listen to approved Christian music, and so on, then I’ll be less likely to sin. Now I’m not so sure. I’m thinking of how Christ spoke to the Pharisees versus the prostitutes.
Perhaps what is most biting about this section of UnChristian is that non-Christians perceive something that many Christians I know have felt, which is a lack of spiritual richness. The remedy may be something non-believers won’t like, such as a deeper focus on scriptures, and more reverence in church services. But perhaps they would like these changes very much. Perhaps the watered-down, “I’m Okay, You’re Okay” sermon is a turn-off to the non-believer after all, despite the good intentions of those who deliver it. I suppose that’s something for church leaders to work out. Most likely there is no one best formula, for the Lord calls us through a variety of means, none of which have any power without his work.
Regardless, it’s distressing that instead of deriding Christian services as weird, or over the top, or sheer lunacy, non-believers call them boring and uninspired. Even if they were simply bent on saying something unkind, wouldn’t it better that they call us crazy than irrelevant?
Editor’s note: See Tony’s other three posts in this series, “Anti-homosexual Christianity” “Hypocritical Christianity” and “Target-shooting Christianity,” as well as his column in the Jan. 26 issue of WORLD, “Going negative.”




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“Perhaps the watered-down, “I’m Okay, You’re Okay” sermon is a turn-off to the non-believer after all, despite the good intentions of those who deliver it.”
That sentence kind of jumped out at me this morning. A non-Christian who is seeking God enough to be in a worship service knows that s/he is not okay. That person needs to hear the Good News that Jesus Christ came to save sinners precisely because sinners are not okay before God. That person won’t be satisfied with a watered-down message designed to build his/her self-esteem without dealing with the problem (i.e., sin) itself.
Was it John Newton who said, “I am a great sinner, and Christ is a great Savior”? That is the message we all need to hear.
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I once attended a service at a predominantly African-American church. For 90 minutes the rafters shook as the people sang joyous, exuberant praise, the preacher exhorted them and every good point was punctuated with a loud “Amen!” or “Yes!” from the congregation.
The next week I was back in my predominantly white suburban church where people mumbled through readings, monotoned hymns and sat silent listening to a dull sermon delivered impassively.
I can see what Tony’s talking about here.
I agree with MMAcMurray too. I can see no point in going to church to get a bland feel-good service. If you’re in church at all, you’re there seeking truth and passion.
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Tony wrote: “Just thought I’d go ahead and write a basic script for a number of comments that will follow this post. Feel free to copy and paste the above to save yourselves time.”
Your mocking and belittling attitude reveals, Tony, that you don’t appreciate or even listen to those who try to honorably criticize your review and your insights. You sure can “go negative” on the church and criticize Christians in post after post after post, but you obviously cannot handle (or even grasp) honest well-intentioned criticism yourself.
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The next week I was back in my predominantly white suburban church where people mumbled through readings, monotoned hymns and sat silent listening to a dull sermon delivered impassively.
Yeah, white people suck. I hate ‘em.
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I’m adding the headline “Irrelevant Christianity” to my list of faith-related oxymorons:
* Hopeless church
* Stingy Christian
* Blind faith
* Private faith
* Divine Blunders
* Holy Hypocrisy
* Stoic prayer
* Sinful Saviour
* Cat Baptism
* Unrepentant Christian
* Christian racist
* Christian feminism
* Christian Chauvinism
* Superficial sincerity
* Cheap grace
* Popular Prophet
* Fashionable discipleship
* Irrelevant Christianity
In some cases (like “Stingy Christian”), they may not always be actual oxymorons but they should be.
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Say Night Train … that was totally uncalled for and missed the point I was making.
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No, I just summed up your point.
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Maybe you think you did but you didn’t. I was talking about different approaches to worship in different kinds of churches, with an eye toward Tony’s point. You reinterpreted it as some kind of racist statement.
I can speak for myself perfectly well, thanks.
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I left the church I grew up in because their message was basically “I’m OK, you’re OK (except when we’re complicit in the sins of pollution and racism).” I visited a fundamentalist Baptist church with my older sister (who had become a Christian through the influence of Christian friends at the engineering school she attended), and the first thing I noticed was how joyful the people appeared as they sang the hymns. Compared to an African-American church they might have seemed very staid – no one ever lifted their hands or clapped – but the joy was evident on people’s faces. That night I responded to the invitation to accept Christ as Savior.
I was active in that church for the next four or five years, but eventually came to see it as erring on the “separatist” end of the spectrum, including separating from churches that they felt compromised with the world too much (modern Bible translations, supporting Billy Graham, contemporary Christian music, etc.).
I was taught to assume that anyone who was not active in a church very similar to ours (and since there was no other church like ours in town, that meant pretty much everyone I knew who didn’t go to our church) was not a true Christian, no matter whether they claimed to believe in Jesus as Savior. (It was assumed that they really were trusting in works, or in church membership, or just saying the right words without really understanding them.)
I also came to miss the majestic old hymns that I had grown up with, such as God of Our Fathers, A Mighty Fortress, O God Our Help in Ages Past, and many others, even though it was the more “bouncy” hymns (amazing how fast some church pianists can play some of them) and their “upbeat” feeling (even when the words were about sin and Jesus’ blood) that had first appealed to me at the fundamentalist church.
There’s a place for both, and I think the lack of the older hymns (at some churches) with their sense of awe at God’s majesty and their deep theological lyrics probably contributes to a sense that the church is “separated from the mysterious and awe-inspiring God of the Bible.” I know there was genuine spiritual vitality in the fundamentalist church, because I got to know the people there and how God was changing lives, but the emphasis was too much on outward changes and not enough on the less visible inward changes. There are outward changes that are evidence of inward change, but it’s also very easy to make just the outward changes when that’s all that people pay attention to.
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#2. And after they left, were they changed? Did they learn anything?
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There is a definite value to self-examination and the confession of one’s sins. It is the pathway to forgiveness in Christ and to Christian growth for both individuals and Christian ministries.
However, it can be overdone, especially in public venues, where it is eagerly seized and distorted by the enemy to smear and discredit the cause of Christ. We see that quite often on these threads. I think that is one reason why quite a few vicious, anti-Christians delight in their harassment tactics on this site.
I hope that the editors here work to restore some needed balance to the articles they post. Less despondent “naval gazing” and more positive witnessing to the fantastic benefits of Christianity is a better way to go.
In the meantime, the malicious, anti-Christian jerks who stomp around on these threads should just be disregarded. Most of them have little to offer besides poison tongues and closed ears. I have better and more positive things to do than waste my time with them.
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Sure, we Christians can do a lot better, though the sort of self flagellation that David Kinaman and Tony Woodlief indulge in is unhelpful.
Of course, a survey of young people will turn up many with negative views of Christians for the simple reason that we live in a culture dominated by a secular elite in the media, academia at all levels, Hollywood, and television. This secular elite for the most part has a corrosive attitude toward devout Christians on general principle.
Woodlief’s title for this thread, Irrelevant Christianity, indicates a lack of balance. Many devout Christians have been active in their communities. Pres. Bush and John Ashcroft have been active and have been vilified in large part due to being devout Christians. Personally, in a good sized New England town, I spent six years on a school committee and nineteen years as the Town Moderator,presiding over town meetings.
Francis Collins, an evangelical Christian, and head of the International Genome Project, has written a brilliant book titled, The Language of God, a Scientist provides evidence for Belief. Today I read an article in the Boston Globe that Benjamin Watson, a devout evangelical Christian, is highly regarded by Patriots players and many fans as much for his faith as for his superb football skills.
Serious Christians should pay scant attention to Kinaman and Woodlief, as they pay overmuch attention to dubious survey data.
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11-”Less despondent “naval gazing” and more positive witnessing to the fantastic benefits of Christianity is a better way to go.”
Psalm 14
The fool in heart is saying, “There surely is no God.” Corrupt and vile their deeds are: Not one of them does good. (of the fools, that is)
Creative theology?
How many ways can be found to say explicitly or implicitly that there is no God? Perhaps some don’t come out and say there is no God, but to listen to them talk, you would not think there are any righteous on the earth, the righteous, who in Psalm one, are known to Jehovah, who do not walk in ungodly counsel, stand with sinners or sit in the scorner’s seat, who meditate on his law day and night and are like the tree growing by the water, that has leaves and fruit in season, and all he does prospers well.
These are real people alive today.
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Peter Leavitt at #12: Woodlief’s title for this thread, Irrelevant Christianity, indicates a lack of balance. Many devout Christians have been active in their communities. Pres. Bush and John Ashcroft have been active and have been vilified in large part due to being devout Christians. Personally, in a good sized New England town, I spent six years on a school committee and nineteen years as the Town Moderator,presiding over town meetings.
Yes, but that’s not what Tony’s talking about. He’s talking about people who have not found that relevance in their experiences with Christianity.
Tony’s been consistently expressing a legitimate concern, that to non-Christains (or nominal Christians) the church does not offer much that’s attractive.
I would think that should be an occasion for introspection to discover if there are things Christians could do to change that impression.
Instead, the responses his posts are getting suggest that a lot of Christians are indfferent to how they’re seen from outside or unwilling to consider the possibility that there might be any way to improve the situation without compromising the faith.
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SteveG, Woodlief remarked: In the first instance, they perceive that Christians are neither intellectual nor culture-shapers, but rather people who huddle in enclaves and denounce outsiders. In the second instance, they describe the Christian services they have attended as frequently boring and devoid of spiritual vitality.
I tried to point out the devout Christians, Francis Collins and Benjamin Watson, as examples of culture shapers along with Bush and Ashcroft as political leaders.
Actually, serious Christians are good at introspection; they are well aware of their individual manifold sins, unlike most liberals who locate sin in society. In fact both Kinaman and Woodlief themselves tend locate sin in the society of Christians and are apparently incapable of, for example, clearly stating that homosexual behavior is a sinful disorder of Nature and Nature’s God. This is what C.S. Lewis famously described as Christianity and water.
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I know of no believers who are indifferent to how we are seen from the outside or are unwilling to consider improvements. I see Christians everywhere in constant diagnosis and pulse-taking to that end.
I see more improvements coming from honest gratitude and positive reinforcement than from costant stereotypical criticism. Perhaps improvements among us are getting rare because of our inability to see the good in each other and show it.
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But Joel, what about Christians who deliberately provoke reactions from “the world,” and then claim they’re being persecuted “for Jesus’ sake?” I’m talking about people who are rude and whose behavior and attitude are not Christ-like to begin with, who then go on to claim they’re are being misunderstood or victims of anti-Christian bias?
That’s not what Tony is talking about, of course.
I’m leading a study of 2 Corinthians this winter, and we’ve just covered the passage about people being blind to the gospel. Church could seem dull if you were not open to the leading of the Holy Spirit or if you didn’t understand what we are worshipping–God made man.
I don’t think that means we need to completely trash our worship services into a three ring entertainment arena, but we should be sensitive to how we present the Gospel. Jesus wasn’t static and reached out to people in all sorts of walks of life. Perhaps our services should have enough fluidity in them to do the same?
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At the beginning of the Christmas season, our church had a very “un-church-like” service. Having signed up for various duties beforehand, we put up the Christmas greens over the windows, hung up wreaths, lit the Advent candle, etc., while different people read about the beginnings of those traditions & how they relate to the Bible .
Then the whole congregation got involved with decorating a Christmas tree with ornaments that were symbols of Christ & the Christian life. In between these activities, we sang carols.
There was mingling at certain times, & laughter. It was lovely & fun.
What did my daughter’s non-believing friend think of the service? It was boring. Just because it was “church”, & he’d already decided he didn’t like church.
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Tony,
You must have lots of time on your hands, . . . ‘bashing the Christians’ as you make your ‘cheeky’ remark regarding “cut and paste” certainly you flatter yourself as you believe you have all the answers and questions and we are left in your opinion to use your comments since we can’t write our own. I’m astounded at your inability to see yourself in such a ’self important’ way.
The guy who wrote this book must be either ‘jumping up and down’ or terribly embarrassed at the attempts you’ve made to further this ‘SMASHING’ frenzy with which he assaults not only Believers, but the Church.
What joy are you receiving by using this ‘tornado approach’ towards Believers? People who have spent their entire lives in Christian service, evangelizing, ministry, teaching, outreach ……. then a guy like David Kinnaman gets a hot idea to write a book to ‘SMASH’ the Believers, using people who complain about everything, and YOU BUY INTO IT!
Guys like Kinnaman have been around for ever, since they can’t do anything but complain, murmur and carp, they find a another group who can’t wait for the 15 minutes of fame grumbling and whining about Believers.
Has Kinnaman come up for air yet? …… maybe to start groups to minister to all these people who can’t find Believers they like or a church they can go to. Has Kinnaman reached out, and given these 16 – 28 year olds what he thinks they need? ….. or is Kinnaman’s idea of change is to change everyone but himself, with making himself the leader of change without being the FIXER, or the DOER, rolling up those sleeve’s of his, getting down in the trenches and making a difference instead of moaning behind whatever important role he thinks he has!
Crititicism of the Church Believers doesn’t take any muscle, its the coward’s approach to self flattery! If this critique and shameless acccusations were in any way against FALSE DOCTRINE it would be a good point, but its a personal shameless attack against those who have followed the Holy Spirit, love the LORD and HIS Church. The world can say whatever it likes, but when a ’so called Christian’ backs them up, instead of WORKING on what he perceives the problem to be, its A SHAME!
And you stand by this tripe?
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I agree with Joel Mark’s comment @ # 16, & was thinking along similar lines.
Most of the Christians I know are striving to be more truly Christ-like in their personal lives, are open to the working of the Holy Spirit to root out sin & sinful attitudes, & want to be a light to draw others to Jesus.
As I wrote on another of these UnChristian threads – Yes, there will be the immature or new Christians who makes these mistakes, who are lousy witnesses of Jesus’ love. But they are made into a stereotype, which does not fit all Christians. And Jesus did say we would be hated.
Tony – Beyond being sensitive to the Holy Spirit & to others, what do you want us to do? Many here believe their churches are not like what the book describes. You seem to want to ignore what many are saying here, as Joel Mark mentioned in #3. So what is the solution to these perceived problems, besides beating ourselves up & feeding into the stereotypes believed by certain unbelievers?
I’m sorry if the above paragraph sounds angry. It’s not anger, but I guess a bit of frustration at the attitude you showed in this post. Quite frankly, it sounds like how my unbelieving family members sometime sound, as far as having made up their minds about what I may have to say on a subject.
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Karen O
By whom was Jesus hated the most? It seems to me that his greatest detractors were establishment religious figures. They disliked his preaching. They were offended by his model of the good Samaritan (Samaritans being a despised group). They were unhappy about parables like the widow’s alm. They disliked the company he kept. They were unhappy with his observations about keeping the sabbath.
I hear folks on the blog say with frequency that they expect to be hated and persecuted, but by whom and for what?
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Michelle asked; “What about Christians who deliberately provoke reactions from ‘the world,’ and then claim they’re being persecuted ‘for Jesus’ sake?’”
They should stop it and grow up.
Beyond that, what about them?
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13- Psalm one
To deny the existence of the righteous is to deny the existence of God.
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I think it’s important for those of us in churches that are not like those Tony is criticizing remember that there are churches like that out there, and that is where a lot of non-Christians will have gotten their negative impressions from. From a non-Christian’s point of view, the ultra-liberal church I grew up in is just as Christian as the ultra-fundamentalist church where I got saved, and their negative stereotypes could be based on one of those or anything in between.
There’s little or nothing I can do about the universalism taught at the church I grew up in, or the fact that the church where I got saved now considers fundamentalism to be too liberal. What I can do is keep in mind, when getting to know someone who does have negative stereotypes of Christianity, that they may have gotten their impressions from people in a church somewhere, not just from media stereotypes. (Michelle’s first paragraph in #17 sounds just like a church I was assigned to while in Bible school. They instructed us to witness by approaching people on the street and talking to them whether they were interested or not, and to try not to let the people do much of the talking because that would be an occasion for Satan to get the conversation off track.)
Saying “Christians aren’t really like that” isn’t very helpful if someone has had experience with people who considered themselves Christians and were like that (whether those people were genuine Christians in our opinion or not). And as they reminded us many times in my MBA program, a bad experience carries a lot more weight with people than a positive experience. So even if the people/churches responsible for a lot of the negative impressions are just a small percentage, they’re going to be what many people remember and judge us by.
That’s where I see the value of a book like this. Understanding how other people perceive us is a helpful step in countering misperceptions.
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If I may take a stab at Coyoteblue’s question to Karen O: “By whom was Jesus hated the most?”
Coyoteblue’s answers to his/her own question were fine. I would amplify thusly:
By those who did not like being told to repent of their sins–those who presumed themselves to be better (less sinful) than others.
By the civic leaders like the scribes (lawyers), Saducees and Pharisees (in that culture, the civic leaders were also religious leaders).
By those who sought to appease Caesar and his puppets or at least did not want to rock the political boat.
Today, Christians should expect to be hated by much the same sort of people. We can avoid being hated by downplaying the “repentance” part, but then we would not really be Christians.
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If you ask those who complain all the time about Believers, “how many times have you gone to church in the past 10 years” OR, “how many different churches have your visited, other than Christmas and Easter” . . . . more often than not, you will find they haven’t gone to church, except for a few times, and they haven’t visited many churches. What they do is parrot what they have heard from others.
Most of the complaints are from people who switch on the TV and watch the “PROSPERTY GOSPEL” and make their decisions based on what they observe. That’s a lazy observation of the true Church, but its a handy excuse to “BLAST the Church” There is nothing we as Evangelicals can do regarding TV ministry which isn’t Biblical or Scriptural.
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Pauline – I understand your point, but so far in these posts I haven’t read anything that I haven’t heard before. What I haven’t read is a solution.
I have agreed in my comments that there are indeed some who fit the stereotype (I guess I should have included churches as well as individuals), but the book seems (from what Tony has shared about it) to paint us all with the same broad brush.
Somehow I’m trying to acknowledge that a problem exists, but that not all of us are part of the problem, & another part of the problem is anti-Christian bias, which Jesus told us would exist.
CoyoteBlue – Yes, but it seems that the ones doing the “attacking”. so to speak, at this time are not religious leaders, but non-believers.
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Thanks, Joel Mark, for answering better than I did, while I was still typing & previewing. (I’m slow at that.)
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I appreciated my conversation with Tony when the first post on this topic came out, even when it was spirited. But he seems to have lost a desire to repond on subsequent threads. That would be fine except that I think he has misunderstood and mis-stated the concerns of those who object to his comments.
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Victoria,
You said a kind thing a while back that I appreciated but did not take the time to respond gratefully. I am just as sure as you that you would be equally welcome in our home any time too. Whatever minor differences we may come up with, our common ground is so huge and solid.
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A while back I said to Joel that Jesus had a subversive message. His challenge was to establishment authorities, civic as well as religious as Joel has pointed out. Had Jesus not challenged them, it is unlikey they would have attacked him or his message. Just food for thought.
Oh Joel, I am a female, thus a her.
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Joel,
I was surprised when the first TOPIC/THREAD was posted, because I believed it to be ‘thrashing Believers’ I still do- I don’t think Tony was pleased at many of our responses,….. BUT NOW, it appears he isn’t even able to post-
The ‘cheeky remark’……. “Just thought I’d go ahead and write a basic script for a number of comments that will follow this post. Feel free to copy and paste the above to save yourselves time.” ……… wasn’t just insulting, (although Tony will more than likely call it “sarcasm” now) but a statement to SILENCE those who opposed not only Tony’s belief in the book, but the book itself.
I don’t think the author of the book or Tony are willing to listen to the Believers or the Church, they are to caught up in the endless complaints of a world, which has no use for the Church or the Believers.
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Victoria,
I do care about what ousiders think of us and there are even verses in the Bible that encourage this concern, to a healthy point. But the criticisms in that book do not seem to be balanced. All the criticism seems to go toward those of a more traditional bent and the more progressive approaches apparently have nothing to improve upon. The truth is that we all have room for improvement. But the criticisms featured in these posts comes across as not just constructive criticisms, but as attempts to redefine Christianity more on the world’s terms. Just my impression.
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Joel,
Agreed that we all could improve, none of us have reached the point of perfection.
One of the points you make:
Joel, what I bolded is KEY to what I believe is true. You expressed it very well, with few words, and YES your impression is right.
The world wants us to come down to their level (I don’t mean that in a mean way) they want us as Believers to embrace whatever life they have chosen, and put a stamp of approval on top with a blue ribbon. We can’t put a ’stamp’ of approval on sin, . . we already know what the Bible says, we can’t change what GOD has made clear is sin, the LORD doesn’t change His mind about Salvation, its man who continues to beg and plead that we as followers/Believers in HIM, somehow make the worlds choices more palatable.
Most of the world doesn’t receive Christ Jesus, how can we expect that the world would receive us, HIS messengers? There is no easy way to tell anyone that they have to turn from sin and to CHRIST, when that’s exactly what they don’t want to hear.
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Have any of you read Randall Arthur’s Brotherhood of Betrayal? I really liked this book as I can relate to the betrayal in it. It doesn’t mean that all churches are judgmental. I don’t take it that way. I was thrilled to find a writer who knew what I had been through and could even put my feelings into words. One of the themes in this book is a good church that develops from an abusive pastor repenting and becoming loving.
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Jesus said be kind to those that persecute you. He said to turn the other cheek. He said judge not, lest you be judged. He sais it was harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. At virtually every turn he rebuked the powerful.
Sometimes when I read posts on WMB all I hear is sin, sin, sinner, sinner. Some of you reply to that that my reprobate mind does not want to hear your message. That’s convenient because it excuses you from engaging and makes it possible to dismiss what is said. But if Jesus were echoed in attitudes and actions, it would be harder to dismiss the people who claim to be his messengers. Again, just food for thought.
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A REPROBATE mind is not convenient, its not our message but the Word of God.
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Unbelievers being abusive to Believers in no way means we should not stand up against FALSE teaching or doctrine.
Jesus didn’t tell us to agree with those who opposed HIS teachings.
Jesus had some harsh words for some.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:33
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Mathew 23. Ironic. I belive Jesus was speaking about scribes and Pharisees. If memory serves the first part of the chapter is particularly pointed in warning people not to follow the scribes and Pharisees.
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“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.”
Below some HARSH words from JESUS. HE stood firm against those who came against TRUTH. Remember that the next time you believe we need to behave like ‘door mats’
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8
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The point being, JESUS wasn’t a ‘door mat’ and we have no reason to be either.
The world wants a soft approach, the softer the better, or ’silence’ if they could make that a law.
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We find many people today who mock the Word of God. The doctrine of the universal Fatherhood of God and the universal brotherhood of man has brought us into a lot of trouble. We cannot sit down, with un-Believers and call them the children of God, those who don’t believe in Christ are children of the devil. Obviously there are people who are not children of God. There is only ONE WAY to be a child of GOD and that is through faith in the LORD Jesus Christ.
Jesus is from God, and any person who is a child of God’s will listen to Jesus Christ. People don’t like to hear that today. People want to hear the love, talk and nothing more, that is their religion not Christ or Salvation. If we as Believers are going to stand for TRUTH, then we will denounce the EVIL just as our LORD did in John 8.
Many will become antagonistic, they were when Jesus walked and preached and taught that we needed to repent, turn from our sins and receive Salvation through faith in HIM, and it hasn’t changed one tiny bit, in 2,000 plus years.
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Matthew 23 (NASB)23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6 “They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 ["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ 17 “You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 “And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ 19 “You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 “Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 “And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 “And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 “So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
John 8 was also spoken to the Pharisees, shortly after they exhibited unhappiness with Jesus for stopping the stoning of the adulterous woman.
It is not mocking Christ to understand that his rebukes were not to the gentiles, the unbelievers, but rather to the religious leaders of the Jewish people.
Again these citations are quite ironic given this series of postings by Tony.
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Jesus came to shed HIS blood on the Cross for the whole world, it wasn’t just the Jews, it was for everyone. The unbelievers were those who didn’t believe in Jesus.
Check out your post 36, where you make mention of being “persecuted” when Jesus was speaking was HE speaking to Jews, Disciples, Gentiles, or everyone?
In Matthew 5 and Luke 6, who was Jesus speaking to, was it Jews, Gentiles, would it make any difference as HE was on earth to give the Gospel to EVERYONE…..”shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also”
Many don’t like the passage in John 8 because they want it to apply to someone other than themselves.
When Jesus spoke of “your father the devil” in John 8:44 There are only two choices here, whether one is a Gentile or a Jew, ….. your father will either be the devil or the LORD, there isn’t a third choice for anyone, be it Jew or Gentile.
“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”
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6. by SteveG 02.01.08 at 11:00 am e
Say Night Train … that was totally uncalled for and missed the point I was making.
7. by Night Train 02.01.08 at 11:07 am e
No, I just summed up your point.
I took NT’s “I hate white people” as tongue-in-cheek.
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In John 8 the Pharisees challenge Christ’s purpose and person. They call him a bastard. They say he is possessed by a demon. He replies with a strong rebuke. Why is it difficult to put the passage in context? I have not argued hear about the universal nature of the gospel itself. So you are having an argument on a premise that does not exist, except for in your own mind.
Matthew 5 has the beattitudes. Strong and revolutionary stuff. If Christians lived this way, they would change the world. My reference in post 36 is from that chapter it reads in the NIV:
38″You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43″You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
And Luke 6: 37″Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
39He also told them this parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
This is powerful stuff. If Christians lived this way they would be salt.
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I wish Tony would engage with some of our comments and not toss grenades and leave. He is a worthy debater and a good communicator. At least his threads get reactions.
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2,47, and the list. Some insight here. As for grenades, I used to live with a man who through these and found other things to do.
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sorry, “I used to live with a man who threw grenades…”
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Coyote Blue, from all your posts you apparently admire the loving nature of Christ. Do you believe that His love extends to giving a “pass” to sin?
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Michael
I think that the Creator is merciful and that was the central message of Christ. It is not so much giving a pass to sin as understanding that all of us sin — even born again Christians continue to sin, almost every day because they are human. Given our human natures, I think all of us, like the Pharisees and scribes are tempted to place ourselves in a higher plane for various reasons, for some evangelicals it is because they have seen the light and are saved, for some secular folk it is because they have education and can see past the foibles of our human past.
The point of my posts here is to speak to the legalism that can be found in modern evangelicalism. It is the strict unyielding legalism that turns off many a listener, particularly if they have the insight to see that not one of us can live by the law laid down in the Bible. That central point gets lost by WMB posters quite a bit from what I have seen.
Rather than tackle what Tony is observing and using the book to illustrate, folks self-righteously proclaim themselves attacked. Rather than turning the other cheek and reacting with humility they draw their sword to be warriors for Christ. But what they wind up doing is proving the point of UnChristian in the first place. I believe there is great elegance and beauty in the message Christ brought. It is a powerful message, but also a very difficult one as going the extra mile, loving your enemy, humility, forgiveness are hard for most of us.
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The problem with the book “UnChristian”, in my view and from all I have heard about it and from what I have already known about the Barna Research Group, is that it is based shabby and irresponsible scholarship. The studies, in my view, are driven by surveys that collect vague, subjective and stereotypical claims–quite knee-jerk in some cases. And it presumes accusations to be “data.” That is lousy social science. This shows that the harsher critics of Christianity have little respect for tough-minded social science and scholarship and are willing to accept anything as long as it is negative and disparaging. Notice that little to nothing in the book ‘UnChristian’ is positive toward Christianity. Tony has already conceded this.
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Listen to the negative stereotypes Christians in general have sustained on the various posts and articles Tony has shared (and validated to various degrees) with us:
* “Christians talk about hating sin and loving sinners, but the way they go about things, they might as well call it what it is. They hate the sin and the sinner.”
[Buzzer sound] UNFAIR STEREOTYPE!
* “Christians are neither intellectual nor culture-shapers, but rather people who huddle in enclaves and denounce outsiders.”
[Buzzer sound] UNFAIR STEREOTYPE!
* “According to ‘UnChristian’, six negative themes infuse young people’s perceptions of the modern Christian church: hypocrisy, treatment of outsiders as conversion targets, hatred of homosexuals, seclusion from the real world, over-politicization, and condemnation.”
[Buzzer sound] UNFAIR STEREOTYPES!
“Many [Christians] are unlikely to assist AIDS orphans despite Christian generosity to other causes.”
[Buzzer sound] UNFAIR STEREOTYPE!
“Our hostility toward gays — not just opposition to homosexual politics and behaviors but disdain for gay individuals — has become virtually synonymous with the Christian faith.”
[Buzzer sound] UNFAIR STEREOTYPE!
If World on the Web began attacking African-Americans, or Hispanics, or senior citizens, or even agnostics in the same unbalanced and stereotypical manner that Tony’s posts have criticized Christians, I would challenge that as well.
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If Jesus had given out passes for sin and blamed it simply on the fact that we are all “human,” they would never have killed him. If he had only talked about heaven and avoided the mention of hell (to which he referred more than any other character in the Bible), then he would not have made anyone angry.
It was Jesus’ tough side against sin that makes His love for sinners so real. Grace is only amazing to those who grasp the true extent of their sins.
Why should we bother with jusitification by faith through Christ if we can just justify our sins on our own?
“Men will care little about pardon, till they are convinced of sin.” John Angell James (1785-1859), An Earnest Ministry, 1847 (p. 84).
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CoyoteBlue I think that the Creator is merciful and that was the central message of Christ.
This is partly true. Christ made clear that God is merciful to truly repentant sinners. He, also, made clear that God created a moral universe with moral as well as physical laws that men and women need to respect and follow or suffer earthly as well as eternal consequences.
Christ in several places stated that he came to fulfill God’s Law and commandments, not to abrogate them. He both forgave the adulteress and admonished her to go and sin no more. With the money changers at the temple, he wasn’t even forgiving.
Evangelical and orthodox Christians, far from being legalistic, are ideally compassionate and sensitive to any sinner, though unsparing in calling a sin a sin.
The problem in our time is that we live in a secular, therapeutic culture that finds deterministic excuses for behavior and doesn’t really allow men and women the ability to make moral choices.
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Sin is powerful. There is no remedy for sin unless one turns to CHRIST, repents and turns from sin. All the salt in the world won’t make much difference if the unrepentant pours sugar on their sin, and then believes a little salt from others might make it better.
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
28 And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their knowledge, GOD gave them over to a REPROBATE MIND, to do those things which are not convenient.
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers.
30 Backbiters, haters of GOD, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil tings, disobedient to parents.
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Blue — Rather than tackle what Tony is observing and using the book to illustrate, folks self-righteously proclaim themselves attacked. Rather than turning the other cheek and reacting with humility they draw their sword to be warriors for Christ. But what they wind up doing is proving the point of UnChristian in the first place.
Roger — You know, there may be some of that happening here at WOW. But I would like to stand with those who can’t wait for Tony to find another book to read. And I’ll tell you why with an illustration.
When my wife and I first got married we were in a store, looking for things to buy. While looking around, we were having an intense conversation about something very important to the both of us and really tracking with each other. All of a sudden, I happen to speak the word “menstruation”, and since I tend to have a loud voice I suppose the entire store heard it. At least, that’s how my wife perceived it.
Suddenly the conversation came to an abrupt end when I got an earful of “why you shouldn’t say things like that in public.”
Now, consider this place, what we do here, and the context in which these threads have appeared. The atheists and agnostics who post here give us a daily challenge to defend our Lord, defend our faith, and defend our Holy Scriptures. And many of us are willing participants in that conversation, even as it hurts us to hear such things.
The nature of this place sets Christians as the opponents of non-Christians in a debate format in which things tend to be black and white. After all, either Jesus is the way or he isn’t. The Bible is true or it isn’t. The kinds of questions Tony has raised don’t fit this context. These are questions Christians must ask themselves — among themselves — as an in-house debate among family. Tony’s questions, as valid and important as they are, require a Christian to let his or her guard down because the answers are intimate revelations of one’s personal status before God.
It’s one thing to admit, as you rightly point out, “we are all sinners.” But frankly, it’s quite another thing to openly admit, “I am a sinner.” It’s easy, in this type of venue, to make universal statements about humanity as a whole, but not so easy to apply them to ourselves personally. Then, to have the added challenge of giving your confession to an adversary who cares less about your confession than he cares about your trust in a forgiving God is just too much to expect from anyone.
I wouldn’t judge too harshly those who choose not to make their confession in a public place in which any weakness can and will be construed as unbelief, or an admission that Christianity has nothing to offer after all. After all, just as it was inappropriate for me to blurt out such an intimate word as “menstruation” in public, some feel it is in appropriate for Christians to speak candidly about their failings in a place in which candor gives encouragement to our adversary.
I personally am honored and humbled by the few confessions I have read and they bring me closer to them and my Lord to hear them. But I still wish I had heard them in another context.
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“I personally am honored and humbled by the few confessions I have read and they bring me closer to them and my Lord to hear them. But I still wish I had heard them in another context.”
We just can’t have everything we want, can we?
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Coyote (#51),
We have some differences in our understanding of what Christ teaches.
Coyote: I think that the Creator is merciful and that was the central message of Christ.
Mike:That alone cannot be the central message of Christ. To merely say that God is merciful is about as meaningful as saying that God is nice. Right, I agree. So? What else? How does God show His mercy and to whom? Is His mercy given indiscriminately or are there some conditions?
First, ask yourself, why is mercy even an issue? It is an issue because of the fact of human sin and what God said He was going to do about it. From the very beginning God said that the consequence of sin is death. That involves both physical death and spiritual death (eternal separation from God). God is both perfectly just and perfectly faithful to His word. Therefore, ALL sin brings this consequence. EVERY sin that has ever been committed will be paid for by death. Furthermore, all mankind stands guilty before God, for all have sinned. Perfect justice then demands that all must die. So we have a pretty serious dilemma here. How can God show mercy without violating His word and His justice?
So we come to this question, what are the conditions for His mercy?
Coyote: It is not so much giving a pass to sin as understanding that all of us sin — even born again Christians continue to sin, almost every day because they are human.
Mike:You are absolutely right. We all sin and are therefore guilty. However, you have not addressed the issue of sin’s consequence and how that is to be handled. What about that?
Coyote: The point of my posts here is to speak to the legalism that can be found in modern evangelicalism. It is the strict unyielding legalism that turns off many a listener, particularly if they have the insight to see that not one of us can live by the law laid down in the Bible.
Mike: If you are talking of the self-righteous legalism of the Pharisees, we are in agreement. They felt that their self-proclaimed perfection in obeying the law was what would earn them the approval of God. In their pride they missed the point that they were sinners just like everyone else, no matter how perfect they tried to be. Thus, they died in their sins and God’s justice was carried out.
However, I don’t think that is what you have in mind when you complain about the supposed legalism of modern evangelicals. But for the sake of your argument, let us assume that all evangelical Christians are Pharisees, that we are all self-righteous hypocrites, and that we are all going to hell. If that will make you feel better then go ahead and believe that. Let us assume that you have won your point. You can dispose of us in your mind—forget about us.
That still leaves the question of your sin and the consequence of it. What are you going to do about that?
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Good post Roger (#57). I agree.
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Michael – 59
God bless you
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Michael, very thoughtful and strongly felt post. There is not a Pharisaical word in it.
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Thank you Mike, that was a thoughtful post and done with a gentleness of spirit that I appreciate. I think you know my background, that I was raised as a fundamentalist, if not, now you do. When I speak of the legalism I do mean that some, not all, far from all, evangelicals behave like the Pharisees. Those among you who approach non-Christians in that manner tend to get noticed because they are the loudest.
We understand how the creed is taught in exactly the same manner as consequences were emphasized in my training. I do believe in God and in Christ’s message, I don’t believe in quite the same theological creeds that you do.
Roger, I also appreciate your approach. It’s not an easy thing for Christians to talk about the warts when they are being watched. I don’t think confessionals of any specific nature are needed on a board like WMB, but I do think particularly when engaging the sinner, as I and others are often called her, approaching with some humility is in keeping with Jesus’ teachings. You have a point about being oppositional when faith is questioned, there believers and nonbelievers will disagree. But there is much more on WMB than discussions of faith.
Peter Leavitt, Right with you until the two last paragraphs. There are a good number of legalistic evangelicals and orthodox Christians. I know this having lived in the community. There are also a good number who are not. On the culture we live in, I just disagree. I think we are no more or less prone to find ways to excuse behaviors than other groups of humans in other ages.
Joel Mark, I apologize already because I know you will dislike what I write. I’ve spent a good deal of time in UN fora listening to debates where Muslim states decry the stereotypes of their faith — they call it defamation of religion. They don’t address the suicide bombers and fatwas that cause those stereotypes to exist. I won’t speak to the stereotypes surrounding African Americans and Hispanics, but I will about the ones given my community. The drunken Indian (or otherwise hopped up on something) stereotype exists because it has a basis in fact. My community has yet to get a grip on how to help each other overcome the crushing defeats that are felt to help rid ourselves of the high number of substance abusers in our community. But if the stereotypes were laid out on a board like this, there would be anger and denial. The stereotypes of evangelicals exist for a reason and it isn’t persecution for bringing their perception of the Biblical message to the public. As I observed above, Jesus’ message is revolutionary. If Christians did live as he suggested then you would probably be persecuted and you probably wouldn’t have become entangled with temporal power.
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Coyote (#63),
We have spoken before on other threads and so I remember some things that help me to understand where you are coming from. However, until I read your comments to Joel, I was not aware of your Indian heritage. Like many other Americans I share some of the same. I am originally from Oklahoma with some small amount of Cherokee background. I am told that my grandfather was christened in the old Creek Council House in Okmulgee when the area was still Indian Territory.
Now, your screen handle of “Coyote Blue” takes on new meaning.
In your last post you spoke of the legalism issue and clarified your position in regard to evangelicals. I’m glad that you don’t brand us all with that stereotype.
I noticed however, that you did not address the most crucial of the questions I asked in #59—those relating to sin and its consequence. Of course it’s none of my business, but perhaps your reason for that is the same as mine many years ago. I just wanted to avoid dealing with the question. For a long time I raised many arguments against Christianity, but eventually came to the conclusion that all my objections were mere subterfuge, disguising my refusal to deal with this most basic question of my own sin. Just getting past that personal dishonesty was liberating in itself.
I now realize that every person, without exception,will deal with that question sooner or later. It is inevitable, as Job discovered (Job 38:1-2).
Better now, while God’s mercy is still available, than later when it is not.
In the meantime I will close with the same thought that Victoria graciously extended to me in #61:
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Coyotebluee,
Yes, the stereotypes (often mean-spirited) of evangelicals do “exist for a reason” and that reason is as old as the crucifixion of Jesus and the killing of the apostles and the long-standing persecution of the church.
That said, some negative stereotypes may well have specific merit but they seem to always come from people who have NOTHING positive to say about evangelicals. This is often blind broad-brushed animus.
We deserve some criticism, but we also have every right to expect equal fairness in how stereotypes are leveled and assessed.
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Coyoteblue,
What Muslims decry is simply another matter. Take each matter on its own merits. That would be fair. I have dealt specifically with the unfair stereotypes that Christians often sustain and my points stand on their own merit, regardless of what Muslims say about themselves and the stereotypes they sustain.
When someone does have a criticism, let them be specific and fair, and not smear a whole group (Muslims included, Indians included).
If there were Christian suicide and homicde bombers (in the name ofJesus), I would be just as vocal in defaming such behavior.
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Mike
If you are still checking this thread. I wanted to say that I have thought about replying to you, but, you are right, that’s kind of personal, the consequences stream, that is. It is not something I have ignored. And I do understand about getting past personal dishonesty, if a rather different experience than many evangelicals. If you send me an e-mail I will reply.
On the heritage and handle, well Coyote is a figure folks recognize. For us its the Raven in the same role. Although it is said that I have a small bit of Cherokee in me (bout an 1/8th) but this is uncertain. I do have just under half Athabascan and a smidge of Inuit.
Joel
A small clarifying note — “defamation of religion” as is being used in an international human rights context is used as more of a cover for banning speech. An example, in Afghanistan a journalist was jailed for distributing an internet article that questioned the Islamic conception of the role of women. Defamation of religion is also used to cast aspersions on folks who observe that suicide bombers tend to be Islamic. That’s the context and why I thought you might be unhappy with what I wrote.
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“To be in, but not of, the world is a commonly heard admonition among Christians. Continuing with my exploration of the chief points made in UnChristian, the authors find that many young people perceive the church as not only sheltered from the real world, but separated from the mysterious and awe-inspiring God of the Bible. In the first instance, they perceive that Christians are neither intellectual nor culture-shapers, but rather people who huddle in enclaves and denounce outsiders. In the second instance, they describe the Christian services they have attended as frequently boring and devoid of spiritual vitality.”
True Godly people and die hard church-goers are not always the same thing. See the book Pagan Christianity.
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