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Religion: 10 books
Religious author Kyle Strobel offers his suggestions for ten books every believer should read. We do this a lot here, I suspect because we like metaphysics and we like reading. Strobel’s list is decidedly ecumenical and aimed at the young, intelligent, slightly existential protestant. His suggestions are:
The Classics
1. St. Augustine – The Confessions
2. Brother Lawrence – Practicing the Presence of God
3. Thomas A’ Kempis – Imitation of Christ
4. Jonathan Edwards – The Religious Affections
5. Dietrich Bonhoeffer – The Cost of Discipleship
The Modern Classics
1. Jean Vanier – Community and Growth
2. Dietrich Bonhoeffer – Life Together
3. Henri Nouwen – In the Name of Jesus / The Way of the Heart
4. Karl Barth – Evangelical Theology: An Introduction
5. Dostoyevsky – The Idiot
So, for discussion, I’d like to do the exact opposite and ask you all to list one or two popular and/or classic Christian books that you found to be boring, boorish, and/or really, really bad. Books have to hit us at the right time, and sometimes good books fail to deliver. I’m a mildly educated reader, with a decent literary sensibility, and here are my least favorite popular and/or classic books on religion or Christianity. I mean no disrespect here. Just disappointment.
1. Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s – The Cost of Discipleship = Incoherent cliche that was hyped to me by so many folks. It may have been resonant in the first half of the 20th century, but not anymore, not for me.
2. Thomas Merton’s New Seeds of Contemplation = Unreadable meditation on meditation. Makes you feel deep and confused.
3. (TIE) J. Gresham Machen’s Christianity and Liberalism and Abraham Kuyper’s Lectures on Calvinism = Two classics of 20th century reformed thought that failed to resonate, like a thick, meaty sermon that fails to stir the soul (which means it also fails to stir the mind).
Rather than trash my trashing, which you can easily do (I know many folks who deeply cherish these three books), please list one or two that failed to resonate with you, and why.
back to top87 Comments to “Religion: 10 books”
John Piper’s Desiring God. The term “Christian hedonism” is wrong on so many levels, and Piper seems to be attempting a fusion of Ayn Rand and Jesus Christ that just doesn’t work. I can’t escape the notion that Piper thinks our highest aim ought to be to please ourselves (oh and by the way some God juice does that for you best). But I think that impulse to put ourselves at the center of our universe is practically the definition of the “sin nature” Christians ought to be combating daily.
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The Purpose driven life
Don’t get me wrong. The Purpose Driven Life seems to attempt to give a solid foundation, but it was so basic, and was stuff I’d concluded on my own over 20 years ago…. so after a half chapter I put it down a fell asleep…
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The Purpose Drive Life & The Purpose Driven Church:
The Christian Life for a consumer society.
I think JJF totally misses the mark on Piper.
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Hmmm…I didn’t see Prayer Of Jabez on there. Strange that health and wealth books wouldn’t be on the list. Just saying…
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But I think I read The Cost of Discipleship in the first half of the twentieth century . . . Not!
You’re right, it probably could use a more modern translation.
I cannot give my list because I work in this industry and so I need to plead the fifth, but the numbers of shoddy books stagger.
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Are you kidding? I have shelves of them, with my ultra reformed upbringing and heritage…because so much of it is really a putting down of one historical time period, or church tradition over another
We would be SO much better off if, when we went to write a book, we would use the vocabulary of the books of the Bible in the way (and according to the very same meanings) that God uses words.
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Funny that Bonhoeffer makes both the classic and modern classic lists.
I read The Cost of Discipleship in my 20s, and got little out of it. Perhaps now that I am older I should try again. I do agree that perhaps a newer translation is in order. After all, we see new translations of the Bible every year, why not of so-called classics? (Perhaps an update of Edwards and other Puritan writers as well?)
I, too, will add the Prayer of Jabez and The Purpose Driven Life to the list of useless wastes of time, paper and money. Also, The Late Great Planet Earth and other end-times prophecy books.
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Another waste of time, paper, and money is Joel Osteen’s Your Best Life Now. I, for one, know that my best life will be in an eternity spent in the presence of God.
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The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel was horribly disappointing to me. I had expected an unbiased presentation of facts that would ultimately lead to a well-argued conclusion.
Instead I read a book with interviews of various Christian apologetics and their less than persuasive arguments of why they believe in Christ. I guess I expected too much. I didn’t realize that only one side of the case would be offered. I guess I should have realized it from the title, “The Case for Christ”. If it had been unbiased, it would have been titled differently.
I finished reading the book feeling like I wasted a couple hours. I certainly could not use any of the arguments contained in the book with my friends who are non-believers. Die-hard Christian fanatics like the book and made it a best seller. Unfortunately, it should have been written by a judge, not a journalist. Seems like journalists are no longer unbiased observers.
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I remember reading that one in college, Theo. I thought it persuasive back then, but those were the days of my impressionable youth. (I’m much more discerning now… wait, I’m pretty sure I thought that in college, too).
I think it’s still on my shelf — I’ll have to read it again.
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Ivan:
Many of my Christian friends disagree with me on Desiring God. Sometimes I wonder if I’m not attacking the 13th apostle and his 67th book of the holy scriptures.
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Theo Godwyn: Lee Strobel didn’t set out to be unbiased in any of his books. Any book written by an advocate of a side can be counted on to not portray the other point of view fairly.
The best “debate” books I’ve ever seen are those that consist of a dialog between two or more authors, each representing their own point of view and, preferably, actually writing their parts in alternating sequence so they’re really engaging each other’s thoughts.
Otherwise, you can sure you’re only hearing one side of the argument the way its proponents would put it.
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I hear you, Kayvee [#8]. I returned to the US in 2006 for a high school reunion, and while browsing in a Christian bookstore, a young female employee came and recommended Your Best Life Now. I had never heard of Joel Osteen. The employee proceeded to tell me how much her father enjoyed the book [and you also couldn't miss the "NY Times bestseller" advertising]. I fell for the pitch and bought the book. Big mistake. I wrote to Mr Osteen and told him what I thought of his book.
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Steveg,
Do you have any recommendation on debate-style books that presents 2 strong and talented thinkers? I have read a few but found that one side or the other was weaker in the presentation.
Makes you wonder in a real court system how many cases are won or lost based only upon the talent of the lawyers involved.
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I read the Case for Christ at the request of someone. He’s very disarming at first but he writes and presents as a lawyer. That is, he doesn’t provide the rebuttal witnesses.
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Theo: On this topic (apologetcis) all I can think of offhand is “Letters From a Skeptic” by Gregory Boyd. But even that’s not balanced because Boyd is a trained Christian scholar and minister while the skeptic — his father — is a layman.
There is one by Fr. Andrew Greeley and a Rabbi whose name I forget on reading the Bible from Christian and Jewish perspectives.
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1. My textbook for Sociology in college called “Social Problems.” I just checked my shelf–I still have it!! Actually, it’s very intersting to read about the hot button issues of 1989. Most of the issues are ones we still deal with, but check out these out:
* While talking about a future energy crisis: “Car drivers have rejoiced as gas prices dropped precipitously, going as low as 57 cents a gallon.” (57 cents, people!)
* Talked about legislation that was introduced to require mandatory testing of every US man, woman and child for AIDS, the positive test results being stored in a computer so that authorities could trace anybody who infected someone else.
2. “Breathe; Creating Space For God in a Hectic Life” by Keri Wyatt Kent. Of course, I like the idea of the book, but nothing new or interesting was in it. It felt like a waste of time.
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Wow, I’m surprised no one has mentioned Wild At Heart yet. I guess I get to be first. Christian masculinity doesn’t consist of being angry and having “guy time”; it’s about humility and Christlikeness. The Epistles are full of instruction for ALL Christians, and a few instructions directed specifically at guys; if you’re following the global instructions, you won’t need a whole ‘nother book to tell you how to “be a man”.
/soapbox
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How about Sheldon’s In His Steps. Pure sappy liberal drivel (but sappy’s already made the list, I see: Henri Nouwen).
What would Jesus do? Probably not read Sheldon.
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Knowing God, J.I. Packer. I know this is supposed to be Packer’s best and that Packer is magnificent, etc. But, I’ve started it at least four times and found it drier than burnt toast.
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Stubob,
That could explain why my grown kids have all had difficulties with it when I gave it to them for Christmas a few years ago, but I like it!
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I hope I don’t step on too many toes by saying the NIV. As a Bible paraphrase, it’s ok, but it shouldn’t be sold as a translation.
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Interesting how our opinions of books differ. I thought Knowing God was great, The Purpose Driven Church pretty good, In His Steps was thought provoking the first time I read it, and Strobels Case for … books were disappointing. I tried to read The Cost of Discipleship as a young adult and couldn’t get very far. I liked the first two or three Max Lucado books I read, but after that they all started to sound the same – I listened to one on audiocassette and it seemed that I could often finish his sentences for him because I knew what he would say next.
I’ve read a great many books on the Bible, theology, the Christian life, etc., both because I majored in Bible and because this whole subject is my biggest interest (plus I’m an avid reader). I’m sure I’ve read quite a number of books I thought were poorly written, repeated a lot of platitudes, or had poor theology. But they were so forgettable that I can’t remember any examples.
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I didn’t care for The Purpose Driven Life at all, and really struggled with Packer’s Knowing God, though my husband liked Packer’s book a lot. I also struggle with authors like C.H. Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards.
Peter L in 7, you might be interested in some of the titles put out by UK-based Evangelical Press (evangelicalpress dot org). They have taken some books by authors like Spurgeon and have modernized the language somewhat, to make the books more accessible to “people in the pew”.
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Many people are not aware that Henri Nouwen, was a Catholic mystic, with a universalistic view. Many have been taken in by his ‘Contemplative spirituality’
The quote below is from Sabbatical Journey, by Henri Nouwen:
NO one can claim THEIR OWN WAY to GOD. It is only through believing in Jesus Christ who shed His blood on the Cross that we can come to God. Jesus made it crystal clear that no man cometh unto the Father except through Him (Jesus Christ)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6
Kay Warren endorses Henri Nouwen’s books, SURPRISE, SURPRISE – she is the wife of Rick Warren (Purpose Driven Life & Purpose Driven Church) who has embraced ‘New Age’ – ‘Contemplative Spirituality’ –
Now on the TOPIC POST we have……: Kyle Strobel SAYS:
This doesn’t say much for his choice, AMONG OTHERS!
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I’ll add “Blue Like Jazz” and “Velvet Elvis”. I am really trying to understand my emergent friends, but Miller and Bell sure didn’t clear things up for me.
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#18 Rob,
My sentiments as well. I almost put that one down but felt the clique in here may not like it. I am glad to see you call it out for what it is. John has some good things to say but I think in the end, he jumps the shark on the theology and falls prey to the idea that media is a great teaching tool…what happened to the bible as a teaching tool? Just saying…
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Stubob,
I gotta agree with you about “Knowing God”. I think I fell asleep about the same page you did!
But, I found “The Case for Christ” to be very helpful. Many Christians don’t know that it’s actually reasonable to believe as we do. This book helps. It may not convince some egghead skeptic, but it does give a lot of ordinary folks “a leg to stand on” when called on to defend the faith. Our church offered a class studying the book which was well received.
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Victoria,
This is the second time I’ve seen you refer to Henri Nouwen as a “Catholic Mystic,” apparently as a pejorative. Could you please explain what you mean by that term?
The Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary describes mystical as: a. having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence or b: involving or having the nature of an individual’s direct subjective communion with God or ultimate reality.
I believe this defines the connection Christians have to God that cannot be readily understood by non-believers.
So, if you are indeed, using the term as a pejorative against Fr. Nouwen, could you please help me understand why?
Those of his writings on contemplation that I have read [7 or 8 of his books, not all of them], refer to contemplating Scripture. I’ve never observed his use of the term “Contemplative Spirituality,” but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t use it.
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mmacmurray #24- Thanks for the tip. I have little trouble with Spurgeon, I guess because I have read a lot of his works.
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I haven’t read many of the books mentioned here, but I agree with Peter L. on “The Prayer of Jabiz”. I didn’t take “the Late Great Planet Earth” seriously. Though it was interesting reading.
T.J. mentioned “In His Steps”. This is different because it is a classic and shouldn’t be. Initially, I thought the concept was great. Ask WWJD. However, the book got “disturbingly” boring when I began to notice all the cliche’s of Christendom. i.e. The good (those who agreed to walk in His steps), were utterly good. The bad, those who didn’t agree, were utterly bad.
I put quotes around “disturbingly” above because I was a fairly new Christian at the time and thought something was wrong with me for not liking it.
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KAYVEE
I gave you a quote from Henri Nouwen in post 25, what did you understand from that quote? Do you believe there is more than one way to GOD? As Nouwen writes:
“Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God.”
Almost everyone who does a great deal of study, has heard of the “Emergent Church”, “Contemplative Spirituality” “Emerging Church” and a host of other names for the “Emergent Church” movement.
Brian McLaren, Erwin McManus, Dan Kimball, Tony Campolo, Rick Warren Tony Jones, and Henri Nouwen, are all part of this parade, although Nouwen is now dead.
The movement is comprised of ‘New Age’ and ancient mystical practices which stimulate altered states of mind and consciousness, eastern religion and Roman Catholicism, the Labyrinth which is walking and crisscrossing, holding candles, repeating mantras. It is a belief system which uses Christian terminology, but that’s not what its about, it’s a group of religions, and religious practices, which have been shaken like a malt, and then poured out as the “Emerging Church” it doesn’t match up with Scripture.
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It has been a long time since I read In His Steps. I don’t remember much beyond the basic concept of it. I do remember thinking that except the basic concept, I really didn’t gain much benefit from reading the book.
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#25 &32 Victoria. Thank you for those comments. Christian books that effectively relate the message as you say it -that it is only through the blood od Christ that we can be saved- are less popular because that message does not tell us what we need to do or can do to acheive eternal life or that beleiving in “God” will give us a more successful and rewarding life. It is so clear that true Christianity is NOT ABOUT US but is all about God and his full devotion to provide the way to Him by giving us his son.
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Although I didn’t actually read the whole thing, I’d add Marketing the Church. (If I recall correctly, it’s by Barna.) When I was working in my college’s library, I’d see people checking out all his books, including The Frog in the Kettle, and thus I assumed he was warning Christians against being the frog in the kettle, so I started looking through the material. Alas, he’s telling the frog to get used to the kettle. We’re supposed to do surveys of what unbelievers want in a church and provide it. Alas that Jesus never realized that would work better, because when He really got preaching, people left. And instead of turning to His disciples and asking them to take a survey and figure out the problem, He asked, “Will you also go away?” It seemed almost an invitation to leave–or to affirm their faith and stay, which they did.
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Excellent points, Cheryl. I have to read Barna’s Revolution for a class I just started. I just read an article the other day criticizing his latest book, which essentially says the church has gotten just about everything wrong for 2000 years and it took George Barna (and his surveys) to figure out the right way to do things. Here’s the link: http://www.townhall.com/content/7dbae7bf-24a7-4faa-b754-e0e7b746dd04
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BTW, for all the pastor’s out there, I just started reading Mike Ross’ Preaching for Revitalization. Thus far it is excellent. It cuts against the popular “methods” of “doing church” and returns to a study of the importance of the pulpit ministry. Highly recommended. Here’s a link:
http://www.cvbbs.com/inventory.php?target=indiv&bookid=8670&cat_page=1&cat_back=34&sortby=&mod=&letter=
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Victoria, Thank you for the Nouwen quote. I haven’t read any of his books and I was unaware of his theological beliefs on that point. One of his books was recommended to me by a friend, “With Burning Hearts: A Meditation on the Eucharistic Life.” Have you read it by any chance? Do you know if Nouwen held the view you quoted all his life? “Sabbatical Journey” was written in the final year of his life. I was wondering if his earlier views were orthodox, by any chance. Thanks, in advance.
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Litoralise
I haven’t read everything Nouwen wrote. I do know that the one writing his biography, has made it clear that Nouwen was a homosexual.
Yes I believe that Nouwen most likely held the belief that there was more than one way to God, which doesn’t line up with Scripture.
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As far as Nouwen being a homosexual, I’ve heard from a reliable source (I believe it was Yancey, but couldn’t guarantee that) that he had homosexual desires and thus chose chastity rather than marriage–a commendable choice, and one that means he in fact was not “a homosexual.”
I haven’t read Nouwen, but have heard enough about him to believe he was probably a genuine Christian who had messed-up theology.
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Pagan Christianity, Viola and Barna, is great.
This book, unlike Unchristian, does not go the world to find what the world thinks of Christians, but it goes through church history and shows where the “church” has taken from the world-pagan practices- after which to pattern church practices. It also contrasts those worldly practices with what we find in the New Testament.
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As I am an avid reader of just about everything that I can get my hands on, this has been a very interesting discussion. I have also found the Prayer of Jabez and The purpose driven life to leave me wanting. But as my Mother who is a wonderful christian lady once asked me,”Why not just study the Bible instead of reading what others have to say about it?”. I admit that there is a lot of truth in that statement that I still try to follow to this day. Even though it is still interesting to read some of the popular works that are out there, just to see what people are being led to believe.
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“just to see what people are being led to believe.”
Do not add to His words…
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Countryboy
I agree with your mother. Too many Believers are caught up with the latest books, rather than ‘THE BOOK’-
If we spent the rest of our lives with only the Word of God, I wonder how much richer we would be spiritually? I would say our lives would have a different focus.
I’m not suggesting that we never buy another book.
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Phillip Yancey Made the statements below. He hasn’t made up his mind yet whether a homosexual should be a minister. He certainly hasn’t read Romans 1, or if he did he must have an EXCUSE as to why it doesn’t pertain to homosexuals. I often wonder how someone like Yancey tackles the problem with a man or woman who is married and CLAIMS they are driven to ‘have affairs’- If the same idea applies to homosexuals, who claim they ‘can’t help it’ wouldn’t that apply to so called Believers who can’t stop having affairs? Something to ponder if you’re sitting on the fence. OR, maybe they were just ‘born that way’-
I’m not sitting on a fence, its SIN.
Yancey is also very involved in the “Emergent Church” wouldn’t you know it!
Yes Yancey like Nouwen, no surprise there.
Phillip Yancey is CONFUSED on many issues, not just homosexuality!
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Two books that didn’t do it for me:
Desiring God — I fall in the “I just didn’t get it” mode. Probably too conventional for me, given the title.
Poems of George Herbert. I just find them hard going. (Sorry HSK — and I like poetry).
As to Cost of Discipleship Some point in the middle of it, he lays out the Lutheran, By Faith Alone theme. I was sophomore when I read it. I still can remember being in the dorm room (this is VERY vivid), and thinking “then who then can be saved?” All my easy, “i made the confession” easy salvation went out the window with that text. With that confrontation so necessary to my life, the rest of the book could be dry as dust and yet be a source of living water.
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Victoria: It must be nice to be so certain you are right about everything all the time.
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Victoria,
You misrepresented Yancey’s views for reasons I don’t want to imagine. He makes a clear distinction between sexual “orientation” and sexual practice in the topics he’s discussing, a distinction your selected quotes obscure. Here is the full interview, for anyone interested.
Innuendo and disingenuous aspersions are unbecoming.
Caute
SG
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RE:47
2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind….”
I Corinthians 2:14, 15a
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things…
2 Timothy 3:14, 15
But continue in the things which you have learned them, and that from a child you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Psalm 119:105
Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.
Psalm 1:1
Blessed is the man who doesn’t walk in the counsel of the ungodly, who doesn’t stand in the path of sinners, and who doesn’t with the scornful.
And of course, Jesus said he was the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Pretty exclusive and dogmatic. Very narrow-minded, too.
When you leave the basis of scripture, there is not too much to be sure of.
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Serious George,
I read the interview you linked, and it looks to me like Yancey is pretty careful to avoid saying whether homosexual behavior is a sin, which is disappointing. (This is the first linkage I’ve heard of Yancey and the emerging church, and I would like to see evidence of that. I haven’t read everything he has written, nor do I agree with all that I have read, but I tend to like his writings. I haven’t read any of his recent books, nor read him at all in the last few years, but I am inclined to like him, and would be surprised to see him linked with that movement, as he seems more sound than that.)
But a person who struggles with homosexual temptations and never gives in to them (as I believe was the case with Nouwen) cannot be called a homosexual, any more than a person who is tempted to steal but does not can be called a thief.
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George,
I know nothing about the link you offered or its credibility.
What I DO KNOW is that Yancey is pro homosexual, and that George is the bottom line, which doesn’t measure up to the Word of God.
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Cheryl D.
I took Yancey’s remarks about the decisions made in a church where he was involved to indicate he equated practicing homosexuality with practicing, unmarried heterosexuality. Perhaps I’m getting soft in my old age and affording more credit than explicitly due, but I simply don’t find the moral equivocation in his statements that Victoria impugns. What I do see is evidence of love, and a willingness to approach the manifestations of sin much like you do in your last paragraph. True stuff, that.
As for for his being linked to the emerging church, it’s yet to be proven in many folks’ minds that this amounts to a Scarlet E {:~)
Regards,
SG
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Victoria,
The link I provided was the to an interview that was the source of your Yancey quotes. Match it up yourself. Credibility, indeed.
I think your “pro-homosexual” charge is slanderous.
Caute,
SG
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Reading is an important way in which we learn. It’s this path we take to understanding the world around us, those whom we might never meet, or live next door to. But, there is a danger in reading works which are written by those who we know are deceivers, those who cleverly deny the truth to endanger others, or who omit important facts to change the minds of those who are either very young and impressionable, or those who can’t or won’t think for themselves.
Today we have many deceivers in the ‘Emergent Church’ movement. Their tactics are clever and sly, those who find them ‘refreshing’ as so called ‘Christians’ aren’t grounded in the Word of God, but rather walking blindly, reading what they write, casting off whatever pangs of ‘disbelief’ or ‘questionable practices’ as NOT IMPORTANT.
Those who are working to REVEAL the ‘Emergent Church’ for what it is, and what it DOES NOT, and NEVER WILL stand for are ridiculed, not because we are wrong, but because the ‘Emergent Church’ feels good. It has all the trappings of RIGHT, but it’s not Scriptural. Most people, even though they have been trapped into this so called ‘new church movement’ aren’t stupid, they are duped, by their own lackadaisical approach. Many have trusted some of these pastors and writers for years, never taking the time to EXAMINE just what they say.
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George – 53
Before you get carried away with slander accusations, you might check out facts.
Have you ever read….
WOUNDED PROPHET: A Portrait of Henri J.M.Nouwen
By Michael Ford?
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Victoria,
You wrote “Yancey is pro homosexual.” You used quotes from an interview to support this accusation, quotes that in context fail to prove your contention. You then go on to call into question the reliability of the source of the quotes you used. And you want me to check out facts? Not only that, facts about someone who isn’t even Philip Yancey?
I don’t presume to understand the animus of your gripe, but please show courtesy enough to approximate a coherent one.
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Annelise: It is obvious from this very thread and every other thread on this blog that even people who believe the Bible don’t always agree on what various things mean.
And for those who wish to take the Bible seriously but not always literally, the potential for disagreement grows.
There’s a difference between holding strong opinions but being willing to hear and consider the opinions of others, and being absolutely certain that you’re right and everybody else is wrong.
So, I stand by my comment.
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And who do these words slander?
Lets examine this.
Why did Jesus come to this earth?
Why did Jesus spread the Gospel?
Did Jesus say he was the only way to Salvation?
Why did Jesus die on the Cross?
SLANDER?
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Your slander was against Yancey, Victoria.
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George
You have found a site, …. that’s great, but I know nothing of this site, nor do I care. I’m not responsible for whatever site you found.
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George – 59
PROVE IT!
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George, here’s a source that might help you.
Philip Yancey – Amazing Grace?
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/yancey.htm
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George,
How much PROOF do you need?
Consider who YOU ARE SLANDERING!
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Good grief, Victoria. It’s your source we’re talking about. It’s the site where your Yancey quotes came from. Don’t you get that? The quotes you posted at #45. You have two choices:
1) Own up to the fact that the quotes you posted don’t prove your slanderous contention, or
2) Argue (albeit unbelievably) that the source of your own quotes isn’t reliable.
Option number one (my personal pick) shows that what you posted about Yancey (#45) is bunk and slander.
Option number two is just plain self-refuting, not to mention short on credibility.
Which will it be?
Innuendo isn’t convincing. And without further evidence, it’s slander.
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George,
Please CALM DOWN…..check out post 62…..go there, and then read.
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Double good grief, Victoria. Your link to “proof” is a link to the same interview where your quotes came from, the one you claim to know nothing about.
So yes, you are responsible for the sites I found. You are responsible for the slander you sling.
Of your two choices, which will it be.
Or consider a third: “I didn’t know what I was talking about, and since slandering another Christian is a serious business, I need to take more time to find out what’s really going on before rendering such a judgement.”
There’s much to commend option three.
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George,
The real question here is:
Do you believe homosexuality is a sin?
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So failing to prove your slander, you twist this into a question of my beliefs?
Easy enough. Yes, I believe that practicing homosexuality is sinful. But that’s not the real question in regard to what you’ve posted here, and I suspect you know as much.
Here is where you can write to apologize to Philip Yancey for the things you’ve written on this thread. It’s the honest thing to do.
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Serious George,
Thanks for the link in 48.
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Anyone having problems go to:
Philip Yancey – Amazing Grace?
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/yancey.htm
The quotes are there for all to see. You can make up your own mind as to what you believe.
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Being mistaken out of ignorance has some excuse.
Being aggressively dishonest, not so much.
Take care,
SG
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Though I have heard of him, I have never read anything of Yancy’s. I have somewhat of a cynical mind and was “waiting for the evidence” that he was a sincere believer and thinker before reading him. Just figured he was another light reading “do it my way and you will be happy” author though I realize he is well liked and read by many. After reading these two links provided by Serious George and by Victoria and knowing nothing about either site accept what they self describe, sounds like he is well worth reading into. Victoria has pulled some quotes out of context to color her description of the man. From the actual interview, he seems to be a very thoughful caring believer who is striving to follow the footsteps of Christ in at least this aspect (a very volatile aspect) of life. I will try to find a Yancy book to read.
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Mumsee,
Like Cheryl D., I haven’t read any of the recent books by Yancey, but I have read some of his older ones. What’s So Amazing About Grace? is very good.
The first book I read by him was Disappointment with God, which I don’t remember much of except that it was a relief to find someone else who had struggled with some of the same questions and doubts I had – and the difficulty of feeling that such questions and doubts were unwelcome in many churches. The last book I read by him was Reaching for the Invisible God, which sounded very promising but I did not find as helpful as I had hoped.
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Pauline,
Thanks for the direction, I will look for the first two especially.
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Mumsee,
I haven’t read Disappointment with God. My sister did, years ago, and it turned her off ever reading him again–she said she didn’t go into it with doubt and that’s who it’s written for. But I’ve read What’s So Amazing About Grace and The Jesus You Never Knew, either of which I’d highly recommend, and some other books I also liked. I’ve never read a book by him that I didn’t like. My mom didn’t like What’s So Amazing About Grace (I gave it to her), because Yancey has good things to say about a couple people she found highly offensive and un-Christian. I know that Mother Teresa was one of them; the other may have been ML King, but I don’t remember. My thought on that was that my mom missed the point of the book and majored on trivia; you don’t have to agree with every point, or every person he quotes, in order to like the books.
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And Mumsee I read both of the ones Pauline has mentioned and both were helpful and encouraging to me at the particular time I read them.
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OK, I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard Yancey listed with the “emerging church” before. I even attended a conference on Saturday that had a session on the emerging church. Since he’s better known than the people whose names are generally listed in that movement, I would think his name would be listed in some list were he a backer of the movement.
I googled “Phil Yancey, emerging church,” and most of the sources that came up happened to use “emerging” in the article (not talking about the emerging church at all, in other words). One website that was pretty much slanderous to most of modern Christendom listed Yancey in a list of people it accused of “contemplative spirituality” (probably where he fits), emerging church, or one other point, I forget what. (They went so far as to froth and fume at someone for “supporting” Billy Graham. Well, I don’t like all that Billy Graham stands for, but attacking someone for liking him is going a bit far.)
In other words, I couldn’t find anything linking Yancey to the emerging church. If he’s a supporter (which I personally find unlikely), he’s an underground one. If anyone knows of any evidence otherwise, I would like to see it.
I think Yancey basically is someone who knows how ballistic the church can be about hating sin and seeming to hate sinners along with hating their sin. So he takes the tack of erring on the side of gentleness. Since Jesus treated known sinners with gentleness (the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, Matthew, Zacchaeus, and more) and saved his wrath for unrepentant religious people (the Pharisees), I think there’s room for such a response, as long as the person doesn’t deny biblical truth in the process. (Campolo, for instance, denies biblical truth in his desire to be nice.) To the best of my knowledge, Yancey does not. Again, it has been years since I have read him and I haven’t yet read his recent works. I’m open to being proven wrong. But so far I see only a man who’s willing to talk to sinners with gentleness while writing books that do not deny the truth of Scripture.
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Thanks,
As it turns out, hubby is off on a trip to the Big City so when he calls on his CELL PHONE I will ask him to see if he can find one or two of those. And perhaps a Francis Schaeffer book as well. If not, he will find them on one of his shopping the internet trips.
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Pauline,
I read your first post and was intrigued by your comments.
I noticed you were disappointed in all of Strobel’s “Case for…” books, and wondered why?
In contrast, what books on this subject were you the most encouraged by, and which ones struck you as being well written and researched? Any author’s that Strobel mentions?
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Make It Man,
Strobel starts out talking as though he were a skeptic who is going to ask some experts the hardest questions he can in relation to the truth of Christianity. He is willing to be convinced by the experts, but I would have expected a true skeptic to also – as SteveG suggested in #12 – take the answers he got to people who take the opposite viewpoint and see what they say about the answer he had been given. Then he could take that critique back to the experts and have them respond to it. That is what I would have expected someone with a journalist background to do.
There are web sites critiquing Strobel’s books, and pointing out weaknesses in the answers Strobel was given by his experts. I would have liked to be able to hear the experts’ answers to that critique.
I think there is quite a bit of value in Strobel’s books, I just was disappointed in that they’re not as good as I expected from reading the beginning of each one.
I haven’t had the opportunity to do a lot of reading in this area since reading Strobel’s books, as I no longer live near a seminary where I can browse and borrow to my heart’s (and mind’s) content, as I could when we lived in PA/NJ area. (I don’t miss the traffic and congestion and noise, but I do miss that.) And I don’t have money to buy books that might or might not be what I’m looking for.
(The one book I did read by someone whom Strobel had mentioned in his book was Charles Templeton, onetime evangelist and now atheist. I was surprised by how weak some of Templeton’s arguments were, and how someone seminary-trained would make make such erroneous references to Scripture.)
One book that I do appreciate, though it’s a different approach, is The Ring of Truth by J.B. Philips. As a translator of the New Testament (though his version of the NT is more a paraphrase rather than a true translation), he is well acquainted the NT in its original Greek. His impression from years of reading and studying it is that it has “the ring of truth.” I haven’t read it in a while, so I forget the specific arguments he uses.
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Hmmmm….
I would love to pick your brain sometime for the books you’ve read, and compare notes… I’m not a great student or even an “avid reader” (although my wife says I am), and to my chagrin, I don’t even think I’m that great a critical thinker, but… I do take an interest in this issue.
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So, the cell phone worked and I now have two Yancey books: Prayer Does It Make Any Difference and What’s So Amazing About Grace? Now I can form my own opinions and be free to offer my opinion to others at any time, whether they want it or not.
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Do let us know what you think, Mumsee.
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MiM, #81, you’d probably enjoy Pauline’s blog. She has some great posts there about some of the books she’s reading/has read.
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I’ve read a lot of Yancey. There were some things I questioned and much I agreed with. He writes as one who is questioning and exploring, so I believe he would accept that from his readers quite readily. My daughter read “The Bible Jesus Read”, as part of a class at her Baptist university. It was an eye-opener for her. She was on the verge of discarding a lot of her christian beliefs after being treated very shabbily and sinfully at her christian school. This book was one that helped her see that not everyone who babbles the “right” christian phrases is christian or always exhibits the fruit of the Spirit. We have surely seen that time after time on this blog.
I would hate to run a book down. There are some that never spoke to me, but I have found were instrumental in the salvation or maturing of other believers. Just as teachers and students don’t always work well together, so with books. It is wrong to think any book will be perfect, fit every need or not make any mistakes. Only God’s Word fills that criteria. The others need to be extended grace. Unless I believe an author is very herectical, I will give him/her the benefit of the doubt and let the Holy Spirit help the readers to know the truth. In this country we have no excuse to not know what the bible says. It is abundantly available in many different forms.
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Mumsee- What’s so Amazing About Grace is the only Yancey I have read. I liked it, even though there were one or two things I didn’t like (cannot remember what they were). But then, I have never read any book I agree with 100% outside of the Bible.
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But then, I have never read any book I agree with 100% outside of the Bible.
Don’t tell anyone Peter L., but I didn’t even agree with 100% of Calvin’s Institutes (well, about 99.9%, but that’s not 100, is it?).
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