Personal Note: Vain arguments
I’ve been thinking about our beloved RDean lately. And others like RDean who consider Christianity “magical” — a silly collection of myths believed by people who are at best naive and at worst fools.
I don’t make it my life’s ambition to convince the RDeans of the world that God is real. However, I do wish RDean could share my joy.
This past weekend, I gave a talk to high school-age conservatives at the Reagan Ranch Center in Santa Barbara. Before going, I asked my friend Tom Pfingsten, 25, a question: “You grew up like a lot of these students, in a conservative Christian home. What do you know now that you wish you had known when you were their age?”
Tom said, “I wish I had known that true compassion is more persuasive than a good argument. I wish I had known that it was not enough to have the right ideas if I couldn’t show people that I cared.”
The talk I was preparing was on the topic of compassion and social justice. But it occurs to me that Tom’s statement might well apply to Christianity. Do we spend too much time trying to argue people into the faith instead of simply showing them that we care?
For example, I would like to say to RDean: ”Let me tell you what my life was like — what my heart was like — before God found me. I wasn’t even looking for God, or religion of any kind for that matter. I was an agnostic and doing just fine, thank you very much. And yet here came this force, this spiritual awakening from outside me. I didn’t ask for it or even want it, but the call of God was irresistible. As a result, my life was transformed! My relationships were transformed! Forgiveness replaced bitterness. Purpose replaced purposelessness. Direction replaced wandering. I don’t know what needs and hurts you have in your life, but, man, if you could have what I have, taste what I have tasted…wow! I want you to know about it!”
Obviously, Christianity has been caricatured as both a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Republican Party and the beating heart of intolerance and discrimination. Much of these caricatures are hype, churned out by the media and left-wing alphabet groups.
But let’s admit it: We have earned a certain share on our own.
I once did an analysis of the Bible and found that something over 85 percent consists of storytelling. Not laundry lists of evidence. Not recitations of systematic doctrine. Not believers telling other people what to do. Just stories of imperfect people and God’s work in their lives.
For some reason, God has wired us to respond to “story” — to be moved, changed, and even spiritually born again. And He has chosen “story” as His own preferred medium. I wonder if we shouldn’t spend more time emulating His example?
I’m not saying we shouldn’t be able to argue doctrine and evidence: Doctrinal ignorance has often devolved into heresy, and the evidence for creation and Christ’s resurrection are the stories that will reach some hearts.
Still, maybe we should spend more time telling our own stories, which, after all, are part of God’s onward march, His revelation of Himself through human history. Maybe we should spend more time sharing our own pain and trials and joy and transformation. That is evidence, too. And sometimes, evidence of a changed life is the most powerful argument of all.




Learn it! Speak it! Live it!
Bring Christmas to a child in need!








Click to Print
Include Comments











back to top57 Comments to “Personal Note: Vain arguments”
Way to go, Lynn. Bull’s eye.
Report comment to moderator
“For some reason, God has wired us to respond to ’story’…”
That’s probably why it is always so inspiring to hear someone give their testimony–we can relate and be challenged by learning from their “pain and trials and joy and transformation.”
Report comment to moderator
Hear, hear, Lynn!
Report comment to moderator
As a woman who didn’t become a Christian until the age of 23, I completely agree with what you’ve shared today, Lynn. I personally knew I had a “God-sized hole in my heart”, but I didn’t think I was good enough to become one of His children. I had too many things I wasn’t willing to give up. Too many things I enjoyed, not to mention not desiring to be an automaton.
The love and patience of a few friends I met when I was 23 changed my perspective, and I finally decided to try God out. I already believed in Him – I just hadn’t wanted to be accountable. My changes were not immediate, but over the years, they’ve been everlasting. I’m not perfect – never will be. But instead of feeling angry at people for being different, I see them through God’s eyes, and know He loves them, as He loved me.
I don’t like confrontation, so I generally stay out of arguments in the posts, but I am glad for those who are willing to step in and talk. Perhaps I’ll do it more as I get more comfortable, but if I can’t say something in a nice way, I think I’ll keep my thoughts to myself.
Report comment to moderator
Bravo Lynn. I believe you have it right. Faith is not something that you can argue a person into or out of.
On story telling, of note, most religions use story telling to get points accross. We call ancient pagan stories mythology. Even so those stories have things to say about the nature of human beings and the world we live in.
Report comment to moderator
Lynn, Don’t discount the fact that there are a lot compassionate atheists too. Your friend qualified compassion with the word ‘true’. Well, that means there also has to be ‘false’ compassion.
All compassion glorifies God, even that from atheists (Ro 2:14). The ‘falseness’ in compassion comes from the motivation behind why people do it. Atheists do it for no reason other than not for God’s glory (Mt 10:42). Finite beings have to worship something, and if they don’t worship God, they have nobody to worship but themselves.
Report comment to moderator
Every culture has stories via which the culture is transmitted. As Christians, the story of our personal encounter with God highlights what makes Christianity different. A personal God who wants to have relationship with you is certainly different from “religion” of any variety. As we relate to people how we entered into relationship with Jesus Christ, there is no argument that can refute our personal experience. They may write us off as lunatics, but debate is not possible. That is the value of the story. Faith also goes beyond the rational into the personal. Although I believe a Christian should be able to support his beliefs, a person who believes only in his own reason will never understand faith, except possibly if touched by a personal story that pushes him out of the logical mode of thinking.
Report comment to moderator
…there is no argument that can refute our personal experience…..
“Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”
John 9:25
Report comment to moderator
I really like it when Lynn does a blog like this one, because it shows her to be a thoughtful person instead of a “talking head” for the Christian right.
While I am not a Christian, I do believe that we all have a “spiritual” side. How people express it or to what degree they emphasize it varies from individual to individual. To deny it’s existence or ridicule it is to deny an essential part of being human.
Have some horrible, cruel, and just plain stupid things been done in the name of “religion”? Absolutely. Do people do some nefarious things in the name of religion? For sure. Has religion been used to curtail or even quash science? Yes.
In regards to RDean, sometimes he makes points that I agree with. But the way he makes his points turns me off many times. I cringe at some of the things he writes because I think they’re unnecessarily mean or insulting.
But then, there are individuals on here from both ends of the spectrum who turn me off. People that are harsh, judgmental, self-righteous, arrogant, mean spirited, “preachy”, constantly attacking others, and always negative and critical (no matter what their cause or belief) wear me out.
Also, when someone picks one “note” and constantly harp on the topic no matter what a blog is about should realize that people tune them out after awhile.
Well, I’ve certainly been guilty of some of the above from time to time, to varying degrees. So I try to cut people a lot of slack.
Report comment to moderator
I suspect if Christians want to “lead others” into their religion, it’s not Bible stories that will do the trick. The only real way is to lead by example. Christians who don’t understand this have “missed the boat”.
I can’t think of a better analogy than Bush. He felt he could bring democracy into Iraq at the end of a gun. He certainly sees himself as compassionate. He failed miserably. You can’t “force” people to live the way you believe they should. You have to lead by example. If you found spiritualism and it seemed to bring on a sense of real compassion and make you a better person, then good.
I was raised to do onto others how you want them to do onto you. What that is, is justice. Compassion is helping others at no personal gain. They need help, you can help, and not helping is immoral. Others in need. True morals are based in ethics. You don’t need to be a mystic to know these things, but if that’s your bag, then good. Anything that can help you to act like a better human being is good.
That being said, there are many on this site that have no compassion. No sense of justice. No ethics and yet, they swear they are Christian, because they follow the Bible. Blindly following rules is not a display of justice and certainly not compassion. How many times have I heard that, “They bring it upon themselves for not following God’s rules”? The way they justify what they do to the gays is downright evil. No compassion there. They refuse to see the lack of civil rights. No matter how many times it’s said, they can’t hear it. It’s the “la la” song all over again.
It seems it’s the same people that are anti gay are anti black. What are a few nooses at a high school? It was only a prank. The District Attorney had the nerve to say, “Thank God for Jesus”, “It was Jesus that kept these people from rioting”, “Jesus personally stepped in to stop these people (meaning the black people).” You can bet this District Attorney sees himself as a good, compassionate Christian.
The thing about evolution is a real gripe for me. These scientists spend years of sacrifice and study, for many at great personal cost, to bring knowledge to the rest of us. Rather than studying what these scientists have discovered, they smear the work of these people because it challenges children’s fables in the Bible written by primitive people who lived thousands of years ago. Look at all the knowledge scientists have brought us. Look at how our lives are made better. Instead of giving them support, many religious down them. That’s not compassion, it’s not justice, it’s not ethical. Oh wait, evolution is not science so they aren’t downing “real” scientists.
Read what they have to say about scientists in, “We will not tolerate dissent. Dissent is intolerance!” The same ones that are anti science, are anti gay, and anti black (oh wait, they are just anti affirmative action because slavery ended a long time ago and no one is mistreated anymore because of race). The same people that believe these things want to bring “democracy” to Iraq. Do they even want democracy here? This is a Christian nation after all. Is the only compassion and justice for other Christians.
Look at Alen Keyes. I have heard him praised on this site as a compassionate conservative. He disowned his daughter and cut off all finanual support in the middle of her school year. Why? Because he was running on an extreme anti gay platform and she just couldn’t keep quiet and support this bigotry against her and her friends. How many have said that was her choice?
Compassionate Christians expect certain people to go through their entire lives without romantic love of any type. Because the Bible says who these people love is wrong. Yet, you don’t know any of these people. You have no contact with them. They don’t affect your life in any way, yet you want them hurting. How is that compassionate? Especially when they might not have a single supernatural belief.
So, you asked the question, “Do we spend too much time trying to argue people into the faith instead of simply showing them that we care?”
I say yes with some small changes. Replace “argue” with “badger”.
Replace “simply showing them that we care” with, “making every effort to ensure that they live a free and happy life with all the rights that I have”. You do those things and you will demonstrate compassion and justice and possibly lead people into your “faith”. But I know that this will never happen.
Report comment to moderator
These are very good thoughts to keep in mind, Lynn. However … a good part of the message sent by responding to folks like Rdean in a public forum like this is for other people and readers (Christians and nonChristians included).
The message is that folks don’t have to abandon reason and logic to be believers. If the examples of a few comments above are indicative, it appears this is something people need to hear. They’ve been cowed or lulled or somethinged into buying a very narrow, superficial concept of what’s rational, then believing they have to suspend or go beyond it to explain faith. I agree that stories (ours and those before us) are one way to communicate this, since they immediately relay a context, value and overall shape of the world that can’t be reduced to a set of bare propositions. But these nonredicible properties of a life lived and expressed aren’t supra- or extra-rational. Head on challenges to the myopic notions represented by Rdean’s typical posts are important, if not for the effect they will have on him, than for the message of “don’t let your world be shrunk out of the conversation” they send to other folks.
I cautiously suspect Rdean isn’t going to be convinced of how distorted his vision is by posters on a blog, no matter what approach they take — the caricatures are just too attractive and ingrained. He needs to seek out real people to talk to if he has real questions, something I’ve encouraged him to do on many occasions.
Regards,
SG
Report comment to moderator
Thanks, RDean, for your extended response. You’ve obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this.
Report comment to moderator
Serious George, you bring up an important point. I once heard it put this way: “You don’t have to shelve your brain to become a Christian.”
As you say, evidence is important.
I just think that today Christians as a group, fairly or unfairly, are perceived by many as resounding gongs and clanging cymbals. I suspect that if we spent more time (not all our time) sharing our personal experience of God, we could right the balance.
Report comment to moderator
RDean, thanks for sharing your views in such a comprehensive way.
I wish that you would realize that people are much more complex and nuanced than your assessment of them on this blog. On the blog we talk about issues and viewpoints; you hardly know anything about people’s day-to-day lives.
I have no doubt that most of the people who comment here are just ordinary people who love their families, get along with their neighbors, give to various charities, and even volunteer time in compassionate activities. I am certain that most of the people who comment here have never harmed anyone for being gay or black or for being an evolution-believing scientist.
Like Lynn, I wish that you could know what I am really like and what it has meant to me to follow Christ. I wish that you could see me at home and at work. I wish that you could look into my heart and know how much I care about people, and how much more important it is to me to be kind and compassionate toward others than it is to hold the right opinions.
Report comment to moderator
#14: I wish that you would realize that people are much more complex and nuanced than your assessment of them on this blog.
Some are, some aren’t.
Report comment to moderator
RDean, I see that many of the conclusions you’ve drawn about Christianity are based on the publicized behavior of the American Christian right.
But Christianity is a global religion, more than 2,000 years old. Also, Christians in scores of others nations are not concerned with the politics of race or poverty or homosexuality. The Christianity you are perceiving is of an American stripe.
So I’m wondering if you might for the moment set aside the offenses of Christians in current American culture, and consider that Christianity is at its heart about the inner person.
When you hear stories of people’s lives being changed by Christianity…of conquering addiction, climbing out of poverty, the healing of broken relationships, of adoption into a loving family…are you ever curious? Do you ever think, “Wow, what’s that all about? Is there really something to all this?”
Why or why not?
Report comment to moderator
Then why do you assess them all as if they were?
Report comment to moderator
#10 “I suspect if Christians want to “lead others” into their religion, it’s not Bible stories that will do the trick. The only real way is to lead by example.”
RDean,
That actually goes along with what I read recently on teaching Sunday School. Kids can learn all kinds of Bible stories, but unless they see how the story is really about people like themselves, they’re not going to get much out of it. I grew up knowing lots of Bible stories, but they were nothing but stories to read and maybe have fun acting out. (Marching around Jericho and knocking down walls made of blocks is usually a favorite.)
And even if the teacher explains, in words the child understands, how the story relates to our lives, unless the teacher’s example reinforces the lesson, it’s going to be lost – or worse, a reason to reject the idea.
I agree with Lynn, though, that the stories are important. Telling kids to treat others as they want to be treated is good, but much more effective with stories – from the Bible, from my own experience, from other kids – that show how it works out in daily life. I imagine the lawyer whose question prompted Jesus to tell the story of the Good Samaritan thought he treated people pretty well – until Jesus gave a vivid example of what loving one’s neighbor really looks like.
Report comment to moderator
Jennimiki writes:
“I don’t like confrontation, so I generally stay out of arguments in the posts, but I am glad for those who are willing to step in and talk. Perhaps I’ll do it more as I get more comfortable, but if I can’t say something in a nice way, I think I’ll keep my thoughts to myself.”
Jesus never failed to “confront.” Let him be your guide.
Report comment to moderator
Jesus never failed to “confront”
True enough. But who did He confront? The religious rulers of His day.
He was said to be a friend of the tax collectors, the marginalized, prostitutes…
One wishes that more of the Christians on here would follow His example.
To those that do, I say thank you. You are a credit to your faith.
Not to be bragging on Lynn, but she exhibits two things0 that give her “street cred” (with me anyway:
1. Humility
2. A sense of humor
I keep hoping she’s gonna rub off on some of her more cantankerous fellow believers on here.
Report comment to moderator
To be technical, Anlir, Jesus confronted most folks He met. Sure He confronted the religious leaders, and often in a manner that was sterner than with other folks. But He also confronted the sin of the Samaritan woman at the well. He confronted Peter (quite harshly, and soon after Peter’s confession of Christ) when Peter tried to dissuade Jesus from the cross. He later confronted Peter’s cowardice and Judas’ treachery. He confronted the disciples when they argued about positions of power and prestige. He confronted the crowds that were just following Him to see another miracle. He confronted all those who would be His disciples in the Sermon on the Mount.
Far from being tolerant of sin (especially in the modern day connotation that term), He both confronted sin and died for sinners. Your point is well taken: He reached out to the outcasts of society, and that is true enough. But He did not leave them in their sin or excuse their sins either. Instead, He gave up His life to atone for that sin. One of my favorite verses is 2 Corinthians 5:21 — “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
The thing so many of us who want to call ourselves Christians must come to grips with is that fact that we have all been those “dirty outcasts.” None of us are better than those tax collectors or prostitutes before a holy and just God. We are only able to come before God because of Christ and His atoning death and His perfect righteousness. The only thing that makes us “better” is the same thing than can be claimed by anyone who turns from sin and turns to God: the forgiveness that is only found in Christ.
I also like Ephesians 2:19 — “So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.” I always think of a vagrant standing outside of a house on Thanksgiving Day looking through the dining room window at the great feast on the table. We have all been that vagrant looking in. The difference is that God has called us bums into the house and set us down at the table as sons and daughters so that we may partake of the feast. But sons and daughters don’t live like bums anymore, and they do obey the Master of the house (out of love and respect, of course).
Many of us Christians have forgotten we used to be hobos, too, I suppose. We’re not here to defend the hobo lifestyle or try to justify it, but rather to tell the hobos they don’t have to live like that anymore. And there is plenty of room at the Master’s table.
Report comment to moderator
TJ: But He did not leave them in their sin or excuse their sins either. Instead, He gave up His life to atone for that sin.
Be careful here with the S word. Anlir, our fervent preacher of relativism, will have none of it, as it gets close to the contradiction between universal dignity and the responsible use of freedom.
Report comment to moderator
Peter, there was one time in my own life when I didn’t like the mention of the “s” word either. The problem is that it hung over me like a dark black cloud from which I could not escape, no matter how far or fast I ran away from it. There were certainly times when I “relativized” my own sin, I’m sure.
I read a few years ago Charles Spurgeon’s account of his own conversion. He recalls hearing the Ten Commandments being preached, and he describes them as ten black horses plowing the dead fallow ground of his wicked heart. The Lord planted much seed there and it sprang forth which abundant fruit. We can hope and pray that He will do the same with our friend Anlir.
Report comment to moderator
I knew before I even started typing my response in #20 that several people would completely twist the meaning of the word “confront” to fit their agenda.
Having read the New Testament in it’s entirety, I find the idea of a “smash mouth” Jesus who went around with a bull-whip confronting everyone he met, to mainly be a fantasy of sect of Christians on here who come across as a very self-righteous, judgmental lot.
Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that Jesus confronted the religious rulers of his day, not the ordinary people. There was a huge difference between the way he dealt with the religious rulers and the ordinary people.
Report comment to moderator
Anlir,
Instead of getting upset, why don’t you try reading Kyle’s answer again? I thought it was quite reasonable and accurate. Quite on the money actually. He’s not portraying Jesus as “smash mouth”. Kyle gives examples of the Jesus’ confrontations with people, and I find his portrayal to be accurate.
Certainly I don’t find Jesus to be a “smash mouth”. I am continually struck by Jesus humility and compassion – even in the midst of his “confrontations.” Jesus was gentle and kind to the woman who was caught in adultery, but it was a confrontation nevertheless when he told her; “go and sin no more”. Jesus was no less firm when he lovingly restored Peter by saying “Feed my sheep” – even though Peter could not confess his love for Jesus like he ought. Jesus condescended to Thomas when he doubted Jesus resurrection, and told him, “be not unbelieving but believe.” and “blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe”. Were these no less confrontations – even though they were loving?
I see myself in these people whom Jesus confronts and restores. But the restoration is not through anything of merit on their part. And he continually forgives us as we confess and we celebrate that forgiveness and should be continually thankful that God loves us – even though we fall far short of what we should be…
Report comment to moderator
I’ve just finished teaching 2 Corinthians, and I like how Paul tells the Corinthians God sent him to build up, not tear down. Sometimes our confrontation needs to be leavened with grace.
Report comment to moderator
Anlir,
You are correct in the way he confronted the religious leaders, they should have known better. They had studied the scriptures and missed the message.
To the common man, he taught the message of God and redemption. Turn from you sins and accept God’s gift of forgiveness and GRACE.
Report comment to moderator
Jesus didn’t hang around with prostitutes and tax collectors, …. what Jesus did, was talk with them, as He did with the ‘woman at the well’ .. she believed Jesus. The tax collector being Zacchaes, believed Jesus right away, see Luke 19 below. Many FORGET that it was AFTER they believed that Jesus spent a great deal of time with them. We can see this with Nichodemus, he was a great disciple of Jesus. It was this man and Joseph of Arimathea who buried Jesus in the tomb.
Jesus didn’t run around with the same bunch of people who continued in sin after He had told them about Salvation. Jesus spoke with many people as he did when he performed the miracle with the fish and loaves of bread, and sometimes there were smaller groups.
Then we see the adulteress, and the admonition which Jesus gave her:
One who repents of their sin whom Jesus has forgiven is to “sin no more” … in other words, they don’t go back into their sin.
Report comment to moderator
Excellent post, TJ!
Anlir, you have to understand that confrontations are not necessarily mean or nasty. You may react to something someone writes here in a negative way, but that might be because of something in you. You may resent it, and your response may be to be put out by the writer when in fact you’re put out by yourself but won’t admit it to yourself.
Jesus always stood his ground. Perhaps what you call you “fantasy” is just that people understandjust how strong Jesus was. Maybe you like Jesus only when he’s “quiet,” but if he put you on the spot — the way he has me on so many occasions — you’d learn just how strong he is. The Lord chastens the ones he loves, and for me that’s often been with a two by four, so to speak.
Report comment to moderator
Well, I’m coming late to this discussion, but I’d just like to say that Lynn is a totally awesome administrator for her frank, gentle, and courageous tone on this topic. That’s a balancing act most of us are woefully incapable of. Since I can’t swoon, I’d just like to send my props to whatever church you are in, cuz they raised you up gooooood…. Three cheers!
Report comment to moderator
Make it Man,
My response was to the comment made by NJLawyer in #19, not KyleA. Sorry if I wasn’t clear about that.
Irregardless, you are right about not getting upset. But sometimes I just want to unload on the self-righteous, judgmental, mean spirited people who have such a significant presence on here. In my opinion they give Christianity a bad reputation. They remind me every day of why I’m glad I’m not a Christian.
But then I look at gracious people on here like Chas and RobHays, for example, and I believe if more Christians were like them Christianity wouldn’t have such a poor image.
In any event, I’m working on getting my “groove” back on here. I’ve been out of practice.
Report comment to moderator
Make It Man at #25: Jesus was gentle and kind to the woman who was caught in adultery, but it was a confrontation nevertheless when he told her; “go and sin no more”.
He did. But what if she did sin more?
Imagine this scene: Six months after that encounter, the same thing happens. The religious leaders bring a woman to Jesus and tell him they caught her in the act of adultery. Jesus looks and sees it’s the same woman.
Can you imagine him shrugging and saying, “I gave you a second chance and you blew it. Now you must die, as the Law requires?”
Because I can’t.
Or what if her adulterous lover gave her a disease and she asked Jesus to heal her. Would he say, “You brought this on yourself, get out of my sight and suffer?”
I don’t think so.
But that is the attitude I see among some Christians. Not all, maybe not even most, but many.
Report comment to moderator
Rdean,
Which of the posters here have you met in person to make your determination at #15?
Report comment to moderator
While I accept your scenarios, SteveG, how do you account then for Jesus saying that there will come a day when people say to him “We did this in your name and that in your name” and he said he will say to them, “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I know you not.”
That’s the part about Jesus that you don’t like, that Anlir doesn’t like, but that’s Jesus, too. And that’s what you see as “attitude.” That’s what Anlir sees as “mean-spirited.”
Report comment to moderator
# 31 — Glad you made that a bit clearer, Anlir, though I though NJL’s response in #19 was very friendly in nature (even came with the emoticon). It appeared that your comments were directed at mine (not KyleA’s) in # 21 (especially since you stated that you knew “several people would completely twist the meaning of the word ‘confront’ to fit their agenda”).
NJL, we are in agreement that there are many, many places in the NT where Jesus confronts (as in directly addresses) people who are not the religious authorities. He addressed different people (even different Pharisees) in different ways in different situations. Yet, He did not minimize sin. Perhaps, for our friend Anlir’s sake, we can concede that the people who Jesus confronted were not necessarily of one particular social or religious group, but rather those who were determined (and hypocritical) in their sins and refused to repent. But, as you pointed out, that’s not the “meek and mild” Jesus people want to acknowledge.
Report comment to moderator
I would love a thread where we all shared our testimonies, those of us who are Christiand and those who aren’t.
I personally was raised in a Christian school and have a very bad taste in my mouth about it. As a young adult I completely turned my back on religion although not completely on God, but yes, to some degree. Eventually I came back. There was a time in my life when I was quite judgemental and holier than thou. I have sinned greatly and I have been forgiven. There was a time in my life when I could have quoted chapter and verse of just why some of you were damned to hell. I am at a different place in my life and am somewhat satisfied with how it is. As my priest used to say: There isn’t a one of us kneeling at the communion rail that doesn’t sin in some way before we hit the doors of the church headed home. But isn’t it great that we can be forgiven.
Report comment to moderator
TJ, we are in agreement.
I don’t know how this will read, but I’ve been through some pretty rough things in life (balanced by many good things to be sure), and what Jesus has taught me is to pick myself up and be strong because he’s right there beside me. He’s meek and mild and strong all at the same time.
Maybe I see a different Jesus standing before Pilate than others do — just think of the things he said to Pilate and the condition he was in when he said them. I doubt Pilate ever got over it. Maybe I see a different Jesus on the Cross. There’s nothing meek or mild about him to me there. You just can’t take Jesus apart and pick and choose what you like. He is who he is.
Report comment to moderator
Anlir #31, and Steve G #32,
Oh! Rats!
While Kyle’s response was a good one, I meant for you to re-read TJ’s response at #21.
Report comment to moderator
Anlir #31, and SteveG #32,
In response to both of your observations about the behaviour and attitude of Christians, I would say that GK Chesterton had the best answer to that accusation when he answered the question; “What is wrong with the World?”
Yes. Well. I am part of the problem we discuss here today, am I not? I have been one to hound and ridicule RDean because many of his posts rubbed me the wrong way. I have not been an exemplary Christian in that regard, and I cannot think he would forgive me for it, nor would I expect him to. I do wish he’d stop banging that one note all the time. “Christians believe fairy tales” “Bush is evil” “Christians hate science.” “Christians hate gays”.
That just gets really old…. Old enough that even people who share his viewpoint get tired of it.
Personally every time he says that Christians hate gays, it hurts me deeply. (My reaction to being hurt is not pretty. I usually react first, and then realize much later – That hurt!) He has no idea how we have personally behaved toward gays, or what our personal lives are like, or what our heartaches are, or how we’ve dealt with them….
In the end though, I realize we’re all just as broken and sinful as anyone else, and need the Saviour.
RDean,
I ask your forgiveness for being mean-spirited, and insulting toward you.
Report comment to moderator
As a scientist I hate when people share there personal experiences or story and expect people to accept it as fact. N=1 is hardly evidence. When one person says, “I wore blue socks and my son won his basketball game. Now I always wear blue socks because it might help him win.”
One person’s experience can often be the source of superstition. I am wary about blindly trusting another person’s “experience”.
Yet in my personal life, I rely upon my own experience to make decisions. There are often decisions that are immeasurable in life. I trust my intuition and gut feelings and inner guidance when science cannot provide the answer.
My life often seems like a planned narrative. It is filled with foreshadowing, irony, metaphors, and bizarre coincidences. I have to believe that my life is guided by powers beyond my understanding.
Report comment to moderator
An advantage of showing others how your life has been changed, as opposed to telling others how they should change their lives, is that you’re less likely to come across as being judgemental. You’re also less likely to be caught being hypocritical (because you’re not saying, “do as I say, not as I do/have done”). Put those two things together and you’re more likely to be listened to.
Report comment to moderator
I see that Victoria has gotten her drum set out. It is hard to hear her over the din. As I metaphorically watch, I find but one question keeps coming to mind.
Victoria, do you sin, ever?
Report comment to moderator
CoyoteBlue: More often than not, Victoria is attempting to provide information, citations, etc. in response to something that has been said, which she believes says it all on its face. Perhaps she assumes that you or others will understand it just by reading it. It’s like quoting from a case in a brief. I think Christians here can do that to one another and forget that others don’t know the references and how they interact just as if you and I had a debate using legal phrases and citations alone. Just yesterday, I wrote a sentence and quoted only “be as wise as serpents” but not the rest because I assumed everyone would know where the quoted part leads. As Christians, we are used to having a fellow Christian counter us with Scripture which might seem harsh to someone who doesn’t know what’s behind it. I do believe Victoria sins and that she would be the first person to tell you that she does. She will also tell you the remedy because of her familiarity with the precedents. She uses Scripture the way lawyers use cases.
Report comment to moderator
NJ Lawyer at #35: While I accept your scenarios, SteveG, how do you account then for Jesus saying that there will come a day when people say to him “We did this in your name and that in your name” and he said he will say to them, “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I know you not.”
That’s the part about Jesus that you don’t like, that Anlir doesn’t like, but that’s Jesus, too. And that’s what you see as “attitude.” That’s what Anlir sees as “mean-spirited.”
Actually, I think it’s that passage and similar ones that Christians should really contemplate before they start yelling about how “sinful” one group or person or another is.
Report comment to moderator
Well, I think Christ Himself said that His people, like Himself, would be hated by the world.
I don’t think Jesus (or Christians) are going to be so hated because they are always nice and soft-spoken and accept without a murmer whatever a given culture deems acceptable.
So presumably there is something about Christ (and hence Christians) that offends, or SHOULD offend. What is that?
Anlir and company are quite ok (I think) with Christ as a sort of wishy-washy teacher of platitudes (not all of his platitudes were acceptable, of course, but SOME of them were pretty good).
And I think they are okay with Christ as a sort of 2000 year old hippie, sitting around grooving to the music, and just lovin’ everybody so much man, and getting high on olive oil fumes with his twelve funky buddies and all his girl groupies.
And I think they are probably mostly okay with Christ as a kind of Group Leader for Improving People’s Lives, whether through medical ‘miracles’ (probably accomplished just through sublimal suggestions and positive reinforcement) or just leading Barney-style-I-Love-You-You-Love-Me songs around the campfire with everybody swaying and clapping and feeling uplifted.
And many are quite happy to envision Christ as a kind of revolutionary leader or passive civil disobediance figure, bucking the traditionalists and fighting the political/religious/military complex of his day; a sort of Castro without the fatigues, or Ghandi without the spectacles and goofy-looking loincloth.
So I wonder, then, what exactly it IS that Christ said He (and by extension) Christians would be HATED for?
Must be SOMETHING.
Sometimes in my less politically correct moods I wonder if it might have something to do with Sin, and the Cross, and Sacrifice.
Nah. Couldn’t be THOSE things, surely. ‘Cause if THOSE were the things that would get us hated, that would mean we would have to actually TALK about them, you know. And, goodness knows, doing that would be SO gauche and intolerant and non up-to-date. We might even OFFEND someone. Mustn’t have THAT.
Report comment to moderator
………….
“Victoria, do you sin, ever?”
Of course I sin, have I ever said I didn’t?
Asking the LORD to forgive me of my sins is the only peace I have. That’s why Christ died on the cross. I don’t know what it would be like to drag that big bag around day after day. There are times that I look back and see the mistakes I’ve made, and it makes me sad.
There is a question of outmost importance, which one should consider carefully. How can one escape sin when they PLAN on sitting in the middle of it day after day, OR what outcome will be their Eternity?
Report comment to moderator
NJL,
By way of explanation, I’ve had alot of conversations with Victoria. In very many of them scripture is shouted at me, sometimes in context, sometimes not. The assumption seems to be that since I fell off the inerrancy boat and since I’m a lesbian and since I don’t go to church anymore that I simply don’t understand what I read. The story of the alduterous woman for example, is not a story about the woman and her sin, but rather about those who set to stone her. I could point out that Jesus’ harshest warnings were to the powerful and religious of his day, have done so, only to have the quotes of Jesus’ warning about false prophets (which was spoken about Pharisees) applied (impliedly) to me for quoting scripture back. So I’ve kind of given up on having any kind of actual conversation with Victoria. She shouts scripture in all caps and bolds, I hear clashing cymbals.
Report comment to moderator
“The story of the alduterous woman for example, is not a story about the woman and her sin, but rather about those who set to stone her.”
Actually I think it’s about more than that…
It’s also about the compassion Jesus shows to all sinners.
Report comment to moderator
NJL
I appreciate your kind words and support.
Thank you,
Victoria
Report comment to moderator
coyote you might not be able to expect conversation (who am i kidding, you can’t) but you sure can wind up the monkey and watch it dance around beating those cymbals.
RDean take note of the is-ought fallacy and category errors that lynn is throwing around.
Report comment to moderator
Drill hits it right in 45, and MakeItMan in 48.
The thing about Scripture, especially the parables, is that you learn something new every time you read it. So, when our non-Christian friends say they’ve read the Bible, I’m sure they have, but they’re not “in” it — which MakeItMan points out in #48.
The farther our formerly Christian friends get away from the Word, the more they don’t like the chastening part. It’s inconvenient. Drill’s right: it must be SOMETHING that offends them.
Report comment to moderator
NJL
And see there you are, non-Christians are not in it. MIM points out the quality of mercy, I would not dispute that, but I would stand by my statement as the story is primarily about the hypocrisy of the would be stoners. But it is convenient to invalidate the view of non-Christian by remarking that they are not “in” it and so cannot see. It puts you in the area where you have an exclusive on truth and that breeds contempt for others, rather the opposite, I believe of Lynn’s point in her original post. Me, I don’t skate over the “chastening” parts. But neither do I dwell on the one sentence part of this particular story of “go and sin no more” as the central message of the story.
Report comment to moderator
Drill
If you really stuck to Christ’s message and spoke about greed as much as he did and the corruption of the powerful as much as he did, Christians would be hated indeed.
Report comment to moderator
Theo writes:
As a scientist I hate when people share there personal experiences or story and expect people to accept it as fact. N=1 is hardly evidence.
True enough. But when millions of people over two millennia have similar stories of transformation, that might count for something.
Report comment to moderator
Erasmus
Well, sometimes. But mostly observations are dismissed because folks know being a sinner and all that it isn’t possible for me to see what they see in the same words. Ergo any way that I may interpret a passage from scripture must be flawed. But theirs being redeemed and all must be correct. You can’t really have a conversation with folks when that is the starting point.
Report comment to moderator
36-Kim
Great idea, to me that is where this post was headed. A place to tell the stories of our lives. That would also be one of the solutions in the book Pagan Christianity. We have become passive listeners to the professionsal skills of few, whereas the new testament model was that of active participation for everyone.
Report comment to moderator
CoyoteBlue at #53: Amen, sister.
How come so few of them get it, do you think?
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDonTheWeb.com to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!