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Homeschooling targeted in California
In a blow to homeschooling families in California, a state appeals court ruled Feb. 28 that parents without teaching credentials do not have a “constitutional right” to home-school their children. The ruling resulted from a social-service investigation involving a homeschooling family in Los Angeles County. While it doesn’t appear enforcement of the decree will be widespread or imminent–and an appeal is already in the works–the surprise ruling has still rattled the homeschooling community.
Legal experts say the ruling is a long time coming, given that home schooling is virtually unregulated in California.
“What the court did say is that parents no longer have the right to home-school your kid any way you want, that it’s legal for the state to regulate how you home-school your kid,” said Shaun Martin, a law professor at the University of San Diego who has been following the case.
Martin said school districts and social workers have been reluctant to scrutinize suspect home schools for fear of lawsuits. The ruling, he expects, will make it easier for them to monitor parents who have neglected or under-educated children through home schooling.
Dr. James Dobson is calling the ruling an assault on the rights of parents, and as a former homeschooler, I’d have to agree. But I’ve also heard stories about some really bad homeschooling and can see why some regulation could be warranted. The problem, though, is that the government tends to get carried away. Is there a way to achieve a balance between liberty and accountability?
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I can understand wanting some regulation, some proof that the kids are learning, but isn’t that achievable via testing? Parents would have to be credentialed as teachers in California in order to homeschool, at least that’s how I understand it, and that’s placing a heavy burden on them that isn’t necessarily warranted. (I’d hate to think that I would have to go back to school in order to teach my child, and under this ruling that’s what I’d have to do.)
The parents plan to appeal. If the teacher’s union or the state thinks this will help them maintain their control over schooling, they’d better think twice. Change comes when people are pushed up against a wall, and they might not like what happens in the end.
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This thread just popped up while I posted about this on WV at the same time so I moved my comments over here.
*No where in the country are there more stupid hoops to jump through to get said credential than in California.
*Arnie is about to gut the education budget in CA. So while almost every district is poised to cut class size reductions they need to be ready to possibly absorb over 100,000 new students?
*This while districts may lay off over 100,000 teachers (not necessarily the bad ones).
*And it goes without saying that this stomps all over parental rights and smacks of extreme nannyism.
*The weather’s fine, but there are storm warnings in the whole body politic.
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I have very mixed feelings about the matter.
On the one hand, I have a hard time with giving the state any more control over people’s lives. We have gradually accepted the doctrine that we are the property of the state, and that is very troubling to me. Parents should have absolute freedom in deciding how to educate their kids.
On the other hand, I have seen a few cases firsthand of kids who would have been better off in school than under their parents’ tutelage. Either the parent wasn’t strict enough or knowledgable enough to do the job.
On the other hand, even in those home-schooling situations, I’m not sure that public schools would be that much better. Honestly. Anyone look at test scores recently?
The educational establishment wants everyone to believe that only those people who have taken inane education courses and gotten a teaching certificate are capable of teaching. Yet people with no credentials in teaching are able to teach other people things every day. I would put certain high school dropouts against certain “qualified” teachers any day.
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When I homeschooled I needed to send in regular reports on what I was doing. This was years ago in MN. There was some regulation and as long as it was not overly burdensome, I had no problem with it. I have known one homeschool family that I would have wondered about. However, even that family did more educating than some public schools I have known.
When my daughter and son-in-law lived for a short time in California, he worked as a substitute teacher. He had no education degree at all. He was a theater major and did have 5 yrs. of college. With that and after taking some kind of test, he was sent in to teach any grade from K-8, I believe. That makes it hard for me to believe that California should be so worried about the majority of homeschoolers. There are many ways to make sure children are not being neglected and they need not be burdensome.
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Should we be surprised that Caesar will brook no challengers to his diety?
Which means only one thing: To paraphrase Cal Thomas, Christian parents should act as if their childrens’ schools are on fire and pull them out.
Especially in Californica.
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Homeschool cafeteria and nutrition standards need to be looked into too.
I question whether most Moms have adequate lunchlady credentials.
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I’ve heard some very bad stories about public education. Does that mean we can ban public schooling and make in unconstitutional? Why does the government have the right in the first place to own my children for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week?
Of course, it was never a right. As parents we have been given the privelege to send our children to school, but it is our responsibility in the end to train our children.
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Seems like California has morphed into the Borg -all will be assimilated. The bald assertion by the state that the parents have no constitutional right to home school is absurd on the face of it. But Frank is right, all must bow to Caesar.
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Bart (7): Why does the government have the right in the first place to own my children for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week?
Frank: The operative word is “own.” Caesar thinks he owns us, and in some ways, Christians haven’t done anything to disabuse him of the notion.
Exhibit A, our acquiescence to compulsory public education (which doctrine includes State credentialing of private schools and teachers).
Exhibit B, our concession that Caesar has a legitimate claim upon our life and labor in the form of military conscription.
“Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, but unto God the things that are God’s.” I know of now biblical support for the idea that our brains, labor or lives are Caesar’s to do with as he pleases.
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Being a credentialed California public school teacher, I can tell you the standards are not high, and the classes are a general waste of time. This has nothing to do with the value of credentialing, however.
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I would counter by saying that “teachers with lousy teaching credentials” don’t have a constitutional right to ruin my children’s chances of success in life.
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I think the government should regulate home schooling to the extent that the education received in the home is exactly the same as the education received in the public schools. Governments regulate public schools. Public schools are beyond reproach and shining examples of educational excellence because of government ownership and regulation. Therefore, home schools should operate exactly the same as government schools through regulation, except the parents have to pay for everything.
We know after all, that home schooling parents love public schools and the regulations that make them the way they are. The only reason they don’t regulate their own schools like government schools is because they’re ignorant. The government needs to educate them.
Wow. There’s so much to say about our benevolent and ever helpful government. Come on people! Regulation is a GOOD thing especially when government does it. I can’t wait until government tells me what to eat and when to defecate. My life will be so much better!
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The phrase that the parents have ‘no constitutional right’ to home school their children ought to send a chill down everyone’s spine. If the state can deny that parental right, what other constitutional rights can they deny? That’s right! Any one they choose simply by judicial fiat.
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I just read through my entire local paper and didn’t see a single story on this issue. (Alas, no surprise there).
Anyone with a college degree can get an emergency teaching credential in the state of California. You may have to take the CBEST test (California Basic Educational Survey Test), but it’s an easy test. (At least I thought it was, even the math). And then you can substitute teach. I’ve been okayed to sub for years.
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In order to meet government standards, homeschool children must be able to read at a 3rd grade level by the time they go to high school and half of them should drop out without graduating.
High standards indeed!
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Through government regulation of public schools, I’ve NEVER heard of a public school student NOT learning how to read, write, and do arithmetic. In fact, students do far better when parents stop meddling in their lives. Just let the public schools handle it. They know what they’re doing. They’re regulated!
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I just love regulations. We should have more of them. They’re always spot on! Don’t you all just lOVE government regulations? I’m glad we have legal experts to tell us the importance of regulations. I’m just giddy right now!
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Testing is the answer. Every year the child should take a standardized test for what he/she should know at their grade level. If they pass, fine. If they fail, send them back to regular school.
It’s not just conservative Christian parents who homeschool. Here in Georgia there have been several cases where the parents claimed they were homeshooling their kids when in actuality the parents were running meth labs and prostitution houses. They were using the kids to help them.
Georgia, like so many states, is leery of doing much in the area of regulating homeschooling because the conservative Christian parents cry religious persecution at the drop of a hat.
The problem is, the homeschooling laws are so lax that it allows parents who are dealing drugs, running from the law, abusing their children, or just don’t care whether their kid gets an education to take advantage of them.
Anytime a state tries to put forward even the mildest regulations on homeschooling, the conservative Christian parents call on their army of lawyers, who immediately call a press conference and claim their clients are being “persecuted for Jesus” and threaten legal action.
The problem is the rest of us have to pay the social costs for those parents who don’t educate their kids. There are too many parents who aren’t doing the right thing by their kids. It’s unfortunate for those parents who do a good job with homeschooling.
As you can guess, I’m in favor of tightening the laws up.
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Yes, yes! Government regulations through testing!! The government DOES know how to test, doesn’t it? They’re so much FUN, too! By the way, there are no drugs in public schools because they are regulated. There are no lawbreakers in public schools because they are regulated. They are no teachers or students who don’t care in public schools because they are regulated. The bounties of regulation are endless!
I can’t wait ’til government regulates all my blog comments! They’ll be written so much better!
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To play the really cynical card…I went to a Kibutz in Israel that was established in the 1950’s. The original model was ’socialist utopia’ where the parents worked the lands and the ‘people’ raised the children. Parents were refused the right to see their children except on occasion. Our guide, who was a member of the Kibutz, pulled us aside and told us the grim story of children taken from parents.
All this to say, I see a similar pattern. This collective mentality of propagandizing the children not to question the state’s authority is frightening. This ruling has nothing to do with educational standards, otherwise public schools would be shut down tomorrow.
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Anlir: “The rest of us have to pay the social cost for those parents who don’t educate their kids.”
Substitute the word “parents” for “public schools” and you have reality. Homeschools have a far better record than public schools.
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If they pass, fine. If they fail, send them back to regular school.
What about the kids in “regular school” that fail? Where do we send them and why is there a different standard?
The problem is, the homeschooling laws are so lax that it allows parents who are dealing drugs, running from the law, abusing their children, or just don’t care whether their kid gets an education to take advantage of them.
Do you even know the homeschooling laws for Georgia. You say testing is the answer–Georgia homeschoolers have to pass the same tests already.
Are you saying that none of the kids who are absent from public school many days a semester have parents who run drugs, run from the law, abuse them, or are careless about whether the kids get an education?
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Anlir,
Just one of the many sites that list Georgia’s regulations:
http://tinyurl.com/2l5lhl
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In the SF Chronical article on this story this quote caught my eye (and chilled my heart):
“A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare,” the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.
This goes to a crucial question: Is the purpose of education to: (A) produce loyal subjects of the state; (B) produce a skilled labor pool to fuel the economy; or (C) equip children for a lifetime of learning and to realize their potential as unique creations of God.
The argument advanced by this decision is very much the same as that used by the German goverment to ban home-schooling outright.
Scary, but perhaps this will help expose the real anti-liberty motives behind the opposition to parental rights.
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“Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.” -
Joseph Stalin
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What about the kids in “regular school” that fail?
Hogwash. There is no such thing as failure in public schooling – only remediation. Sometimes, public schools just set the standard too high and maybe it needs to be lowered a bit. Massachusetts is going through that self-correction right now. 1/3 of public school kids going to college need remedial classes. Obviously, colleges are too hard. They need to make them easier.
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Cameron,
When the kids in public school fail, they are promoted so as to stay with their peers. This was a key reason we homeschooled. We had never seen a <0 percentile on a standardized test before but when she got it, they insisted on promoting her. On the other hand, when we took her out and in the first year got her scores up to 35, they insisted she be held back a grade. We kept her home and her scores continued to climb, she did not suffer too horribly from her two years in public school. At home, she was able to make up for lost time, learned to read, do math, etc.
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I guess one of the other reasons the courts want all children in government schools is because of all the perverted fornication and rape that is endemic there. One slightly speech impaired teenage girl was gang raped in a California scholl, then taunted, groped and punched every day thereafter by the many perpetrators. Her grandmother tried to remove her to homeschool her because the daily physical and sexual abuse was traumatizing the girl. The school called her truant, because the grandmother didn’t have enough credentials, and the courts agreed; fined the grandmother and forced the girl back into the school were the abuse continues.
I can only conclude that the courts want top make sure no child can escape this form of ’socialization’. Even in my State, homosexual gang rapes are common, especially in school sports teams. Also, in the local schools, female teachers raping young males is openly known but only rarely prosecuted. ALL of the disabled public school students that I know of get raped at school. One mother was told by the Pricipal that her son should ‘enjoy’ being sexually harrassed by a girl in his class, because she was ‘hot’!
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Wiglaf, LOL.
ANLIR: “Here in Georgia there have been several cases where the parents claimed they were homeshooling their kids when in actuality the parents were running meth labs and prostitution houses.”
You’re mixing issues. That’s not homeschooling, and there are already good laws to take care of that problem.
Besides, such illegal activities occur with kids who go to public school. Regulation really helps.
“The problem is the rest of us have to pay the social costs for those parents who don’t educate their kids.”
Spoken like a true statist. You care more about the “socail costs” than about the kids.
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They’ve tried to do this before and homeschool advocates came out on top in worse situations than this one.
Parents’ rights to homeschool come from the Word of God. That’s their credential.
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Yikes! Two typos in that last post, I have an excuse though – I went to a government school!
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I really get tired of people telling me to butt out of my own child’s education.
LOL Joanneb.
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Mumsee,
Have no fear, I support homeschooling! TJ and I taught public high school for years and watched the social promotion, the lack of parental involvement, the increasing pressure by the state to improve testing and graduation rates, etc. I’m simply trying to get Anlir to work his position out more fully.
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On a non-satirical note, can anyone explain to me why our nations laws seem to stop at public school doors? When it comes to assault and battery and the right to self-defense, it appears to be mostly ignored by public school officials. Often, when one kid defense himself against another, the school officials will punish them both. Rarely are the police and courts brought into it. This appears to be how public schools train kids in justice and law?
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tubafellow (24): This goes to a crucial question: Is the purpose of education to: (A) produce loyal subjects of the state; (B) produce a skilled labor pool to fuel the economy; or (C) equip children for a lifetime of learning and to realize their potential as unique creations of God.
Frank: Yup. Check out “Crime Against the State: Why Progressives Hate Homeschooling,” by Thomas Woods. A snippet:
I.e., the State is God, and will tell you what is right and what is wrong, what you may and may not do. (Of course, these “standards” may change tomorrow, to suit the State’s whim.)
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Sorry. My link failed somehow. Try this:
http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/print.aspx?article=41&loc=b&type=cbtp
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Leave it to the leftists running California to stomp on the problem with a court ordered unconstitutional boot rather than coming up with a sensible program of testing and accommodation that actually benefits the children.
But that would be hard work and certainly their agenda would be compromised in coming up with law acceptable to everyone. So instead, they choose to make the parents outlaws and force them to capitulate to the all knowing educrats—because, as is the cornerstone of leftist belief, the state has all the answers and the citizens have none. If they make what citizens do illegal, the state will prevail and it will be a glorious day. It’s all about POWER to control those renegade citizens.
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Rond,
The court can only rule on the law. It is unable to come up with compromises. If the Christian right had been at all willing to work with the education system for the benefit of the kids, than the stomping constitutional boot would not have been required.
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Luke,
Do you have any evidence that the “Christian right” in California, or homeschooling parents there, aren’t obeying the laws? I’ve seen no such evidence–juat a judge who overreached, and took a case involving one family and applied it to all homeschoolers in the state! (I read about this case last night, so I’m referring to what I read there, not any links on this post.)
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Cameron, I was just using you, dear sister. Wanting to address the question but under friendly conditions.
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If you are interested in helping, here is a petition you can sign:
http://tinyurl.com/2qde3t
Thanks!
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Luke,
The court ruled that there is no “stomping constitutional boot.” That doesn’t mean the state of California should go ahead and tell home schoolers what they can and cannot do.
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On top of that, where does it say in the constitution that kids have a right to education and that government must satisfy that right by force? Where is education defined in the constitution? Where does the constitution require states take responsibility for educating our kids?
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Anlir, you said, “Testing is the answer. Every year the child should take a standardized test for what he/she should know at their grade level. If they pass, fine. If they fail, send them back to regular school.”
You obviously don’t understand homeschooling. Standardized testing is generic and based on what the governmental school students are supposed to be learning at a certain grade level.
In a homeschool, we are free to change this up a bit in order to best serve our individual children. We’re not giving a one-size-fits-all experience to our children; we’re tailoring their educations to them and the specific call of God on their lives (in our home). We could care less what the generic educationists are doing.
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Well, none other than President Bush, a hero to conservative Christians, is all in favor of testing. So I think I’m in good company when I say we should test homeschoolers just as we test students in regular schools.
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Anlir says:
“Well, none other than President Bush, a hero to conservative Christians, is all in favor of testing. So I think I’m in good company when I say we should test homeschoolers just as we test students in regular schools.”
ROFL!
YOU consider George Bush “good company?” I see that since you can’t logically argue the issue, you are trying to create an aura of consensus. Sort of like global warming, eh? Nice try.
In any case, I’m positive a good percentage of conservative Christian homeschooling parents have sided with Ron Paul. What does Ron Paul think of President Bush? Anyone, Anyone? Bueller?
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Testing all students, irregardless of where they receive their education is fair. It doesn’t single out homeschoolers or anyone else.
Personally, I’d be in favor of doing away with homeschooling. I think it causes more problems than it’s worth. Also, it has a tendency to breed fanaticism when combined with parents who have a religious or political agenda. Certainly there are some fine homeschools though.
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Anlir says: “Testing all students, irregardless of where they receive their education is fair. It doesn’t single out homeschoolers or anyone else.”
Wiglaf says: I suppose if the government wants to tax all of us at a 90% tax rate, that’s fair, too. As long as they don’t single out homeschoolers or anyone else.
Anlir says: “Personally, I’d be in favor of doing away with homeschooling. I think it causes more problems than it’s worth. Also, it has a tendency to breed fanaticism when combined with parents who have a religious or political agenda. Certainly there are some fine homeschools though.”
Wiglaf says: Personally, I’d be in favor of doing away with public schooling. I think it causes more problems than it’s worth. Also, it has a tendency to breed fanaticism when combined with politicians who have a religious or political agenda. Certainly there are some fine public schools, though.
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Um, Wig I think you meant to say something else there…
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I love how people who don’t have children to educate say they would love to do away with homeschooling. Do you want to do away with parenting, period, Anleer?
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“Testing all students, irregardless of where they receive their education is fair. It doesn’t single out homeschoolers or anyone else.”
Evidently you never learned that irregardless is not a word. Are you a product of public schools?
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Public schools are what should be abolished. They’re unnatural. Homeschooling’s just parenting. Parents have a right to take responsibility for their own children and it’s none of anyone else’s business.
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Kyle @ #3 – Exactly how many hands do you have?
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339 Luke
The judge leaped from one possibly abusive father—”possibly” considering the source of the complaint was from his own child which prompted the educrat legal offense team, thus smelling blood, to scramble into action. The initial complaint grew from the child’s dispute with his/her father to include the entire family and then the judge took it on to include every home schooling parent in the state.
Not only did the court expand the case before it, but it included and ruled against people not accused of doing anything wrong and were abiding by present law. The educrats wanted more control over the citizens and the court handed it to them on a silver platter.
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Ken – 51
YOU WRITE:……
“Evidently you never learned that irregardless is not a word. Are you a product of public schools?”
You are right.
Here is the definition of
"irregardless"[Probably blend of irrespective and regardless.]
Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.
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When I posted against standardized testing for homeschoolers, it was for this reason: Many homeschoolers don’t follow the same scope and sequence as public schools (we don’t). So those tests are not going to accurately assess our homeschooled children and what they’ve mastered/accomplished. You’re assuming that the government’s scope and sequence is the best one; a poor assumption.
Perhaps if someone would write a test each year specifically designed for each of our children, this would accomplish the purpose you are after. But I don’t see that happening — so for now we’ll just trust the fantastic results we’re seeing: children with strong character, great socialization, knowledge in a variety of subject areas, ability to handle life skills proficiently and wisely, etc.
You’ve obviously not met many homeschooling families, because the vast majority are NOT as you describe.
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Mommy, I had Tevya from Fiddler on the Roof in mind when I said “on the other hand” so many times.
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Just to give examples of two of the products of homeschooling I know: one is currently at student at the U.S. Naval Academy (a senior this year, I believe) and the other is a student at Purdue, majoring in electrical engineering.
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If you wonder why it is so hard for students to be expelled from schools follow the money. The more students in public school, the more money for the schools.
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Our government cannot stand the idea of losing control of our lives. Public school has become a training ground for humanism and liberal politics. They don’t want homes schoolers to weaken the monopoly of Public education and it aggravates them no end to realize that home schoolers are getting a better education in most situations..
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Anlir,
As a homeschooling dad, I agree with you that some form of standardized testing may be the answer. I have no problem with testing per se. We have used the PASS and the SAT to test our older children over the past several years. This year my daughter will take an additional math test to determine her readiness for Algebra II. Such tests offer a good way to check overall progress. As long as there are choices regarding which tests may be used I have no problem with it. The problem that I see in mandating tests is that the state may regulate which test must be taken- narrowing the choice to one.
Nevertheless, I am as concerned about this ruling as many who have replied. I think that in most instances homeschooling has had a beneficial effect.
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Mumsee/#27,
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Government regulation of education and actual quality of education are quite unrelated.
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A co-worker points out that parents are not credentialed to run their de facto day-care centers for their young children, either.
Credentials are evidence TO US that those TO WHOM we entrust OUR children are worthy of that trust.
WIGLAF, life would be so much easier if we just left the child at the hospital at birth to be raised by people with credentials. Hey! Maybe only people with credentials should be allowed to breed! Wait – didn’t that used to be called a “marriage license”?
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Tubafellow at #24:
This goes to a crucial question: Is the purpose of education to: (A) produce loyal subjects of the state; (B) produce a skilled labor pool to fuel the economy; or (C) equip children for a lifetime of learning and to realize their potential as unique creations of God.
Your option (C) is actually two different things and should be split like so:
(C) equip children for a lifetime of learning or (D) equip children to realize their potential as unique creations of God.
The most correct answer, with it properly divided into four options, is (C), although there is an element of (B) as well.
As for the thread in general … you sure are a paranoid lot. Not to mention, under the illusion that any and all parents have the ability, desire and time to teach children through 12 years.
I truly fear for the future of the country.
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Testing all students puts the responsibility where it belongs (in public schools on the teachers, in home schools on the parents). Testing says “Here are the standards. Either you meet them or you don’t”. Standardized testing singles no one out for favor or disfavor, based on religion or where one gets their education.
*****
Considering that public schools have to take all comers, irregardless of race, income, disability, mental capacity, ability to learn, behavioral problems, family life, social status, and so forth, the bashing of public schools on here is entirely unfair.
When private schools have to take all comers, then we’ll compare test scores.
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Oh, and JoanneB (#28) apparently lives in Frank Miller’s Sin City, not America. “Homosexual gang rapes are common,” in public schools?
Riiight.
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Anlir,
Public school teachers complain about “teaching to the test,” and now you’re saying homeschooling parents should do the same. And again, public school students regularly fail the tests.
My guess is that most homeschooling kids could pass the tests with flying colors even if their parents aren’t “teaching to the test.” But part of homeschooling is varying teaching based on what each child is ready for. If kids aren’t taught by a set format (cursive in third grade), who cares? I myself was taught some skills in different grades (in public school) than is “standard”–so what? My seven-year-old nephew (homeschooled, by the way) read AND UNDERSTOOD Lord of the Rings. By eight he could do math in his head–a sale price of 40 percent off, multiplying, adding. My sister gives him long complicated story problems just to keep his interest (in which he has to figure out the living expenses, gas usage, rice consumed over the winter, fish caught, and multiple other math issues related to a fictional explorer on an island); he’s so far ahead of his “grade” in math it isn’t funny. He’s ahead in every subject, I think, but if he happens to be behind in one, you might find an excuse to find it failure.
Private schools don’t have to “take all comers,” though they do often take children expelled from public school. And guess what? Home schools do have to “take all comers,” and they usually excel.
I’ve seen poor home schooling, too. But poor schooling is the norm in public schools and the exception in home schooling. Being in favor of getting rid of them is what, just talk? They help the kids involved, and they are the parents’ right.
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Cheryl D,
They are going away from teaching cursive in any grade. Kids don’t need it with computers and texting.
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Testing misses the point. The issue doesn’t concern WHAT homeschool kids might be learning, but WHO is teaching them.
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Cheryl D.,
You know, you’re going to have to see George Bush about “teaching to the test”. He, along with many conservatives, insisted that testing is the way to go. Now you and other conservatives are saying that it’s not the way to go? Would y’all make up your minds?
In European and Asian countries, passing exams at certain levels of schooling is hugely important and mandatory to continue on with one’s schooling.
While I understand that conservative Christians consider public schools to be the pit of hell, the majority of the American people think otherwise. Universal, free public education has been a huge building block of our democracy. While there are problems, considering that it educates all comers, it does a pretty good job.
That conservative Christians want to completely destroy one of the finest institutions this country has built, and throw tens of millions of American children out on the streets with no hope of education is a sad, sad commentary on their faith. It’s not enough that they pulled their own children out. They apparently want to destroy it for everyone (if one is to believe the comments made on here). Where does this burning hatred of public schools by conservative Christians come from?
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70. Why should that matter if they are passing the test?
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Apparently I haven’t made my point clear enough:
The compromise for California or any other state on the issue of homeschooling is standardized testing. Everyone is put on equal footing. It doesn’t tell parents how to educate their kids. Instead it focuses on what every kid should know, irregardless of how they come by the knowledge (home school, public school, private school, even a “virtual” school).
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It is not a burning hatred of the public schools themselves, but of the sin they facilitate.
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Anlir,
I’m wondering if you saw my #22/23.
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CA: Governor Signs SB 777 (New law will open female locker rooms to transgender men)
10/12/2007
Coming to a School Locker Room Near You: Governor Signs SB 777
New law will open female locker rooms to transgender men
Governor Schwarzenegger has signed into the law the highly controversial SB 777 (Kuehl) that will permit transgender students to enter the locker rooms and restrooms of the gender with which they identify.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1910622/posts
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You know, you’re going to have to see George Bush about “teaching to the test”. He, along with many conservatives, insisted that testing is the way to go.
On the contrary. NCLB and Medicare Part D are Exhibits 1 and 2 of Evidence That W Is Not a Conservative. Conservatives and homeschoolers opposed NCLB from the start, saying pretty much what everyone here has said.
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The compromise for California or any other state on the issue of homeschooling is standardized testing.
I realize this is your point. But it doesn’t speak to the real issue. If the article is correct, home-school students in California must pass standardized tests already.
At 13, Jenny scores high on standardized tests and balances academics with organized sports, Girl Scouts, dance – and the ever-important teenage social life. But according to a recent state appellate court ruling, it is illegal for Morgan – and the thousands of California parents who home-school their children – to teach without credentials.
The appellate court did not rule that parents without credentials were bad teachers, or that home-school students were not keeping up with those of their age group. They ruled that teaching kids is not the constitutional right of a parent. I’m not a lawyer, but I would think the appellate court ruling has a longer reach, and greater significance to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” than it would appear on the surface. If a parent does not have an inalienable right to teach his or her child, what rights do they have?
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SteveG, #67,
Yes, the gang rapes I am referring to are in America. Just last week one was in a neighboring city. The basketball team apparently has been doing it as ‘hazing’. The school is still deciding whether or not to suspend the rapists. They are furious that their latest tax levy just failed, yet they don’t seem to care enough to protect their students. It’s possible that I do hear of more of these going on, because I am in touch with the disability community. Disabled students are much more likely to be victims. Usually the rapes are committed by teenage boys who don’t consider themselves to be homosexual, they just seem to find entertainment in destroying smaller, weaker boys. Whatever the motivation, the common thread is under-supervised gangs of youngsters who are almost never punished. Quite often the parents are intimidated to not tell the police, as it would tarnish the schools’ images, and hurt future levies. In our local school system, for 3 years students have been taking their parents diabetes syringes to school and stabbing other children on the bus. The school knew, but hid the problem, not wanting the community to find out. Eventually, the Health Department found out and had to force the school to notify parents and get the children tested for Hep B and HIV (as the perpetrators didn’t bother to sterilise the needles between victims). Unfortunately, children just aren’t safe in most schools.
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Here in Georgia there have been several cases where the parents claimed they were homeshooling their kids when in actuality the parents were running meth labs and prostitution houses. They were using the kids to help them.
Several, huh? Care to give us links to say, oh, three of these several cases?
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Even in my State, homosexual gang rapes are common, especially in school sports teams.
Common, huh? Care to give us links to say, oh, three of these common cases?
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# 68: By eight he could do math in his head…
A skill that is rapidly being lost, Cheryl. When I taught public high school (math — algebra and geometry mostly), I would get students who could not do basic math in their head. They would want to use calculators, and when I did not allow them, they would do basic addition and subtraction on their fingers. Good grief. This wasn’t complicated math, mind you — they would resort to fingers if I asked them to add something like 29 + 6. It was so bad that I threatened to cut off fingers if they didn’t stop.
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joanneb – 79
YOU WRITE:…….
“Yes, the gang rapes I am referring to are in America. Just last week one was in a neighboring city. The basketball team apparently has been doing it as ‘hazing’. The school is still deciding whether or not to suspend the rapists. They are furious that their latest tax levy just failed, yet they don’t seem to care enough to protect their students. It’s possible that I do hear of more of these going on, because I am in touch with the disability community. Disabled students are much more likely to be victims. Usually the rapes are committed by teenage boys who don’t consider themselves to be homosexual, they just seem to find entertainment in destroying smaller, weaker boys. Whatever the motivation, the common thread is under-supervised gangs of youngsters who are almost never punished.”
Joanneb, I’m not saying I don’t believe you, but if this is actually going on there must be some NEWS COVERAGE of such events. Before my believing this, I would appreciate your providing PROOF of your accusations. If the ‘basketball team’ is involved in “gang rapes” this must have been documented. Such accusations are not fair if it hasn’t been documented and those involved being arrested. Can you do this? If you cannot, I don’t believe it is fair that you continue to make these statements.
Can someone in your city/town rape a person and not be prosecuted? Rape is not just a problem with schools and suspension, it is a crime, and the police are always involved, you do know this RIGHT?
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Well, I finally decided to register since I was homeschooled all the way to college.
Homeschooling is definitely higher quality education. I was generally been ahead of any of my public school friends. Both of my parents were teachers, and they didn’t like the public schools at all. For my Dad, he got to teach at a community college for a while and was amazed at how the students actually wanted to learn. Of course he was also teaching the math classes that the schools failed to teach…
I am not of the opinion that all public school should be shut down. But I do believe that they should be privatized or something. Just get the control away from the government and have the parents of the children decided when the school is doing a good job. Or something like that.
I am of the opinion that timed tests of any kind are worthless. They are not realistic in anyway at all. I am decent at math, but I am somewhat slow. So taking math tests is a real pain because I can’t show my true skills.
As for standardized testing, just have them take the ACT or SAT. They are pathetically inaccurate, but they do measure skill to a small extent.
Forcing homeschoolers to test their kids every year is not a good thing. As has been said somewhat, the whole reason homeschooling exists is to teach kids at their own pace. Some kids will be much faster than others.
The point made about how good public schools are because they have to teach so many different people is excellent. It shows exactly why public schools fail. They can’t adjust to different learning abilities.
One thing that surprised me when I got to college was the fact that I was actually more socially adjusted that many of my classmates. And I am not a very social person at all.
I would talk about the court case, but someone already pointed out how the court stepped out of their bounds. I will say that the government should have no say whatsoever in what kind of education a child receives. The government should only ensure that the opportunity exists, and that there are no laws broken in educating that child. For example, no abuse or child labor. Everything else should be the parents responsibility.
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Jerrac – 84
YOU WRITE:…..
“Homeschooling is definitely higher quality education.”
This isn’t true, it depends on WHERE one goes to school and what school district they are in. You cannot make a statement such as this with a broad brush. I don’t disagree with home-schooling, but at the same time, it can’t be said that it is “definitely higher quality education”- Have you ever gone to a public High School?
YOU WRITE:…..
“I am not of the opinion that all public school should be shut down. But I do believe that they should be privatized or something. Just get the control away from the government and have the parents of the children decided when the school is doing a good job. Or something like that.”
I understand that you are just out of ‘home-school’ and into college, but what do you mean by “something like that”? – that doesn’t say anything.
YOU WRITE:…..
“As for standardized testing, just have them take the ACT or SAT. They are pathetically inaccurate, but they do measure skill to a small extent.”
Where is the proof that these tests are inaccurate? Please give qualified references.
I am certain your parents have provided you with the education they were able to give at home.
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“YOU WRITE:…..
“Homeschooling is definitely higher quality education.””
Hmm… First of all I was talking about in general, based upon all the conversations I have had in life with public school kids. Also based upon my Dad’s experiences in the 5 or so schools he taught at. I should have mentioned that.
I will say that I could have did little research to get a couple links to back up some of my claims. But I don’t have time right now. My bad.
“Or Something”
I say “or something” because I do not have the qualifications to come up with a really good plan. I didn’t write any ideas down because that was not the point of the post. If I took a couple hours I could probably write an article on it, but I don’t really want to. Too late at night.
As I think about it, I really don’t need to go into details. I did suggest that they be privatised and control taken away from the government. “Or something with similar effect.” Simply because there are likely better ideas out there.
As for the ACT SAT inaccuracy comment, I really shouldn’t have said that. It is mainly just my personal opinion of tests in general. I do seem to remember hearing something about them not being very good. Just can’t remember what. Which is probably why I said that. And since I can’t remember what it said, I shouldn’t have posted that.
Thanks for the comments, they helped me see where I could have done better.
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Luke wrote: “The court can only rule on the law. It is unable to come up with compromises.”
Pardon me? Please go to a law library and look at all those reporters with the case law in them.
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I have seen homeschooling done well and done poorly. I stayed with one family for 2 weeks and saw their homeschooling “system” first hand and I wasn’t impressed. I am a teacher by training and was appalled by the chaos that ruled this household. On the other hand, when I interacted with the children about their schoolwork, they were learning. So although I thought they needed more organization and discipline, they still learned.
I agree with some supervision/regulation of homeschools in order to insure that children are being educated. A teaching certificate, however, certainly doesn’t insure a good education. Who will be more motivated to make sure a student learns- a concerned parent or a certified teacher with 25 other children to teach?
When I was subbing, I subbed almost every Friday for 3 months for a teacher who was primarily hanging on for retirement. The other teachers (and her students) liked it when I subbed because the class behaved better when I was there. This teacher wasn’t doing her students any favors by continuing to teach. She was certified, but she had no interest in her students anymore. (I don’t know what kind of teacher she was in the past.)
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Victoria, the recent basketball case was on the local radio stations. The police are investigating only at the request of the parents, as the school wanted it hushed up. The local female teacher/11 year old boy case was openly talked about by many parents, until she was finally sentenced last month, she wasn’t suspended until she was imprisoned. That was in the newspaper. Other gang rapes have been reported on the radio also. Other reports come from the mothers themselves, or old magazines for disabled people. None of these reports come from the internet. Just because they don’t come from the internet, doesn’t make them untrue. My friends are not liars. Sometimes the perpetrators are turned over to the police, but not usually. The schools view it as an internal ‘problem’, if they see it as a problem at all. Like I said, in the sexual harrassment case, the victim was told to just ‘enjoy ‘ it. He is an autistic young man, whom I know, who was traumatised by what the high school girl did to him, but it wasn’t technically rape, and the mother didn’t want to put him through additional trauma by going to court. She just wanted the girl to stop doing it. She didn’t, but fortunately he graduated later that year.
The syringe/stabbing problem was reported in the local newspaper.
Yes, rape is a crime, and the police should always be involved. You are right that it is not just a school issue, but unfortunately too many in school administrations just don’t see it that way, or maybe they do, but they care more about the negative repercussions for their careers/reputations than they do for the victims. I do also fault those parents who find out about it, but don’t take it to the police, they seem to think telling the Principal is enough.
If you refuse to believe anything that isn’t on an internet link, that’s your prerogative. However, if I think that something I’ve heard on the radio or heard first hand from someone I know and trust is pertinent, I’ll still mention it, in the hope that it will help someone here be more vigilant with their children, and prevent anymore from being victims. That is the reason I posted about this at all, even though it is such a heartbreaking topic.
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Joanneb – 89
In my response to you in my post
Number 83 and 89-
I didn’t say I didn’t believe you, and you know this. However, if that did happen, and they are in the newspaper’s, you can get the link by going to google. Newspapers can be found on line. I haven’t found one that couldn’t be located.
After more than a few instances, I have found that substantiating what happens to anyone, be it a young child or an adult, its best to have a source to back-up what you report, IF you don’t, its no more than “hear say” and that isn’t fair to anyone.
When PARENTS refuse to go straight to the police when their child, or they have been raped or abused it is their fault for not REPORTING the CRIME. Going to the school ‘PRINCIPAL’ isn’t the answer, nor do I believe any intelligent person would think that was a good place to start. Any child who has been beaten, raped, or threatened with violence should be reported to the local police. In this way there is a formal report which is documented. The principal of any school is not a police officer, I can’t imagine reporting a crime FIRST to a school principal, that makes no sense.
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Public education has done much good. I don’t believe this is in dispute. The dispute is in a parent’s liberty in deciding how his child should be educated. A liberal says that a parent does not have the authority or the competence to take care of his children and so the government must take control of the children. I know my God-given rights as a parent. My children are given to me by God and I have the responsibility to train them up.
What puzzles me greatly is why some feel threatened by those who choose to educate their children at home. The reason public schools have a lot of bad publicity is because they seem to be failing. The criticism does not have to be on those who trust government schools to be effective and good for their children.
Of course, many parents do not have the time nor the inclination to teach their own children, but those who do, probably do it because they want to spend as much time and give their children as much attention as possible. (This is not to say that parents who want others to teach their children have a different desire.)
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Theselittleones – 91
YOU WRITE:…..
“What puzzles me greatly is why some feel threatened by those who choose to educate their children at home. The reason public schools have a lot of bad publicity is because they seem to be failing.”
Don’t be puzzled. The reason they don’t want your children educated at home is because ‘they’ have no jurisdiction over YOUR home, they can’t decide to bring in sexually explicit material which you wouldn’t approve of.
No one can twist the mind of an innocent child if they are never given the opportunity, this is the KEY as to what is being done in the educational system.
California is a perfect example. The fight is on to make home-schooling illegal. It’s not right, but that won’t stop those who oppose the rights and the beliefs of those who believe differently. Our RELIGIOUS FREEDOM is being taken away from us in a most CRAFTY way.
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Victoria said “Our RELIGIOUS FREEDOM is being taken away from us in a most CRAFTY way.”
Yes. education would eliminate most of your objections from the argument for religious freedom, as there is no greater antidote for fervent religiosity than a good dose of facts.
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If you refuse to believe anything that isn’t on an internet link, that’s your prerogative.
If homosexual gang rapes were really “common” in schools in your state, you would have no trouble providing us links to several articles about the problem. But it’s not, and you know it. People like you and Anlir who make up these wild claims discredit yourselves with your gross exaggerations. I don’t doubt that there has been a homosexual gang rape in one of your state’s schools; in fact, I recall reading something about it myself recently. The idea that it’s common is not only bizarre and ludicrous, it also makes you look like either a lunatic or a bald faced liar, and makes it difficult for people to take seriously anything you say.
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I’d expect homosexual gang rapes in seminaries or catholic schools long before any of the public schools i ever attended. But I agree this JoanneB character is a trip.
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You may google ’sexual assault school’ if you wish to view documentation of the problem. I actually couldn’t bear to read it. While some of you may disagree about how common or rare it is, even once is once too much.
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Even once is too much, but once isn’t “common,” Joanne. You shouldn’t try to paint the public schools as a hotbed of gay gang rape if it’s something that’s happened once.
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Hmm… I am remembering why I hadn’t registered and commented before now. Most conversations degenerate into telling each other how they are wrong or misunderstood without any citations.
JoanneB, may I suggest that you cite the newspaper issue that your articles come from? And if you can, the date and station of the radio program you mentioned? And the magazine issues? That way, those who wish, can find them. As it is, since we do not know you, we have a hard time believing something as bad as what you have talked about.
Erasmus #95. “But I agree this JoanneB character is a trip.”
That is a rude and uncalled for statement. It pretty much ruins any credibility you have.
In my post earlier, I mentioned that I did not consider the SAT or ACT tests accurate. While not an exhaustive study, the article I am linking give several good examples of why the tests are pointless.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61961-2004Jun22.html
The ACT and SAT tests are two of the most respected standardized tests. If they can be shown lacking, then I would expect that many other standardized tests could be found lacking.
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If anyone is interested in getting this thread back on track, I would like to explain why I decided to home-school my children. First I would like to begin with my own experience and say that my personal experience with public school wasn’t that bad at all. I spent much of my time attending California schools, though I attended schools in Arizona and Hawaii since my father was in the military and we moved around a lot. I got pretty good grades and took advantage of summer school classes whenever possible and got as much out of school as possible.
After I graduated I worked for a couple of years, then decided to attend San Jose State University. Two things stand out about my experience there: 1. we did a lot of reading, I mean A LOT of reading, and 2. my teachers told me that my first two years of college would require me to learn things I SHOULD have learned in high school. Even back then, 1975, the University was concerned about the lack of education me and my contemporaries were getting.
But even then, I wasn’t too worried about sending my kids to public school. It wasn’t until I began my own teaching major that I discovered a very good reason for NOT sending my own kids to public school. And I can assure folks like Eurasmus that it had NOTHING to do with my religion. My decision to educate my kids at home had nothing to do with the curriculum or how that curriculum might run contrary to my own beliefs. Contrary to the current reasons Evangelicals give to home-school, our decision to home-school was based on completely different reasons.
I’ll tell you my reason, but first I want to say something about the situation back then, when making a decision to home-school was a risky venture. Don’t forget, back in the early ’70s it was dangerous to keep your kids at home to teach them. Besides the usual truant officers, the Child Services departments were just growing teeth and beginning to feel free to take kids from their parents, which was a scary thought. But above all, judges were not sympathetic to the rights of parents to teach their own kids and were ruling against those who did. Believe me, it was best to keep your head down, your doors closed and your kids inside the house during the day. And it was best to have a cover story ready when your parents or friends would ask the kids, “what grade are you in?”
Anyway, the reason my wife and I decided to keep the kids at home had more to do with HOW the kids were taught, rather than WHAT they were taught. During that period of time, education theory was in a huge turmoil as ever-increasing new theories about how kids learn were argued and debated amongst educators. Moreover, as each of these new theories were being proposed, educators felt the need for empirical data to support their respective theories.
Many of these theories were born from philosophical questions concerning what it means to be a human being. At one end of the spectrum we had B.F. Skinner, who treated human beings as nothing more than machines who merely acted in response to environmental stimuli. At the other end of the spectrum were Jean Piaget and his cognitive development theories.
The fact is, I didn’t want my kids to become guinea pigs in an experiment. I didn’t want my children to experience the behavior modification or mind control pressures born of Skinner, and neither did I want my kids to experience the lack of discipline born from Piaget. Frankly, I would have been satisfied with the education I got.
For me, and perhaps others, our choice to home-school had nothing to do with religious training or values education. I felt confident that I would be able to teach moral values to my children at home. My choice to educate at home, and thus risk state sanction, was a choice to save my children from the destructive effects of an education profession in crisis.
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Erasmus – 93
YOU WRITE:…….
“Yes. education would eliminate most of your objections from the argument for religious freedom, as there is no greater antidote for fervent religiosity than a good dose of facts.”
There are facts and then there are the so called ‘facts’ from the extreme left, who would love nothing more than to indoctrinate/educate the children of the United States into all the ways of homosexuality, bi-sexual, etc, etc. Yep, that sounds like a dose all right!
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Victoria why do you think the extreme left would love nothing more to indoctrinate the children of the United States into all the ways of homosexuality, bi-sexuality, etc? What would the extreme left get out of it? Do you think that they are invested in AIDS treatment technology and facilities?
I wouldn’t doubt it.
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Okay, so, Joannab, a reference to google doesn’t exactly comprise documentation. That’s one thing I learned in public school by the way…after homeschool, to which I attribute most of my success, such as it is!
But still, if you can’t bear to dredge it up and provide specific proof, don’t make reference to it. Honestly, the atrocities you describe are things I can hardly believe. I can’t imagine that things are consistently that horrible. Like Victoria, I’m not saying that I don’t believe you.
And Erasmus, a good dose of facts will only serve as an antidote for fervent religiosity if A) said religiosity is toxic or B) said religiosity is disprovable by said facts.
In other words, the correct religiosity will only be helped by facts, assuming of course that these facts are true.
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Like Victoria, I’m not saying that I don’t believe you.
I followed JoanneB’s suggestion to Google “sexual assualt” and “school” and now I do believe there is a real problem that’s not being adequately addressed. I do not think it’s “common,” and especially not the homosexual angle — most of the incidents that search turned up were of boys victimizing girls, and they were more on the order of harassment than actual assault — but still, it’s a problem.
That’s not a reason to reject the public school system, which is the only realistic option for most people, but it is a darn good reason to put pressure on local school boards and municipal governments to step it much more firmly than some of them seem to have so far.
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Of course sexual assault in public schools is a problem. One hardly needs Google to be aware that sexual assaults occur regularly in public schools, especially the inner city ones. That in no way excuses putting forth the blatant falsehood that homosexual gang rape is “common” in our public schools.
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Cicero – 102
I agree. Google is a an excellent tool, and should be used. News which one wants to share, can then be posted, with a link.
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