Comments on: Look out, creationists: The Grand Canyon just got older http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/ A forum for discussion of news that arises at the intersection of Christianity and culture. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 14:25:32 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: musing http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-14/#comment-286595 musing Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:41:24 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286595 spinoza, you are tough! :-) spinoza,

you are tough! :-)

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]]> By: Spinoza http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-14/#comment-286592 Spinoza Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:35:39 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286592 But no warm fuzzy feelings about exorcism? (just kidding) But no warm fuzzy feelings about exorcism? (just kidding)

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]]> By: musing http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-14/#comment-286585 musing Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:09:13 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286585 spinoza post 652, I agree completely that things changed very very quickly after the crucifiction. And yes I also much healthy scholarly dissent about what goes into each corpus. Still the cygnus-study site matches my sense of Q1 and I have always had a warm spot in my heart for Q1 material. spinoza post 652,

I agree completely that things changed very very quickly after the crucifiction.

And yes I also much healthy scholarly dissent about what goes into each corpus.

Still the cygnus-study site matches my sense of Q1 and I have always had a warm spot in my heart for Q1 material.

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]]> By: Spinoza http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-14/#comment-286571 Spinoza Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:34:06 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286571 #651 - I think my "earlier" is just earlier than your earlier. But I make no claims to expertise! After reading Crossan, I'm convinced that a lot happened really fast post-resurrection in the early church. And of course, there is still a lot of healthy scholarly dissent about what goes in Q1 vs Q2. #651 – I think my “earlier” is just earlier than your earlier. But I make no claims to expertise!

After reading Crossan, I’m convinced that a lot happened really fast post-resurrection in the early church.

And of course, there is still a lot of healthy scholarly dissent about what goes in Q1 vs Q2.

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]]> By: musing http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-14/#comment-286549 musing Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:50:37 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286549 spinoza post 650, and your logic here? My sense has been that Q1 represents the the earliest materials. Q2 appears to represent an effort to get organized and begins to illuminate the challenge of the Pharisees. Q3 is the most apocolyptic, and my personal opinion has been that it represents material dating from after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. Of course the critical method used can be argued to be circular: the material has a tendency to be classified basedon its content, which is based on the assumed development of the Christian community which is then justified based on the material in Q. Still curious why you feel Q2 must be included in the conversation. spinoza post 650,

and your logic here?

My sense has been that Q1 represents the the earliest materials.

Q2 appears to represent an effort to get organized and begins to illuminate the challenge of the Pharisees.

Q3 is the most apocolyptic, and my personal opinion has been that it represents material dating from after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.

Of course the critical method used can be argued to be circular: the material has a tendency to be classified basedon its content, which is based on the assumed development of the Christian community which is then justified based on the material in Q.

Still curious why you feel Q2 must be included in the conversation.

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]]> By: Spinoza http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-13/#comment-286544 Spinoza Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:33:17 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286544 649 - Well if the question is, "What did Jesus think?" perhaps focus on Q1 But if the question is, "What did the very early church think (perhaps soon after Jesus' death)?" You need to also consider Q2. 649 – Well if the question is, “What did Jesus think?” perhaps focus on Q1

But if the question is, “What did the very early church think (perhaps soon after Jesus’ death)?” You need to also consider Q2.

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]]> By: musing http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-13/#comment-286529 musing Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:01:10 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286529 spinoza post 648, which is why I suggested focusing on Q1! :-) spinoza post 648,

which is why I suggested focusing on Q1! :-)

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]]> By: Spinoza http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-13/#comment-286511 Spinoza Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:43:22 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286511 #646 - The Sayings gospel(s) based perhaps on Q focuses on the bringing the "Kindgom of God" - but how is this to be perceived? As a totally secular utopia? Probably not. Probably it is a set of behaviors (help the poor, etc.) with OT antecedents that are viewed as what it would take to persuade YHWH to re-instate Israel out from under Roman rule. This "Theocracy" in the OT had strong miraculous associations wrt its priests, prophets and kings. Also, the healing and exorcism "Q2" stories strongly suggest that Jesus was perceived as having supernatural power of some sort very early on, perhaps in the style of an OT prophet. "Blessed are the Cheesemakers" (Monty Python) #646 – The Sayings gospel(s) based perhaps on Q focuses on the bringing the “Kindgom of God” – but how is this to be perceived? As a totally secular utopia? Probably not. Probably it is a set of behaviors (help the poor, etc.) with OT antecedents that are viewed as what it would take to persuade YHWH to re-instate Israel out from under Roman rule. This “Theocracy” in the OT had strong miraculous associations wrt its priests, prophets and kings. Also, the healing and exorcism “Q2″ stories strongly suggest that Jesus was perceived as having supernatural power of some sort very early on, perhaps in the style of an OT prophet.

“Blessed are the Cheesemakers” (Monty Python)

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]]> By: musing http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-13/#comment-286429 musing Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:40:46 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286429 rdean post 645, you are right: the ability of science to incorporate and adapt as new information is learned is indeed refreshing when compared with the stasis introduced when one must match the information from a previously identified authority. Sorry, I missed the program. rdean post 645,

you are right: the ability of science to incorporate and adapt as new information is learned is indeed refreshing when compared with the stasis introduced when one must match the information from a previously identified authority.

Sorry, I missed the program.

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]]> By: musing http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/comment-page-13/#comment-286414 musing Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:05:35 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/03/07/look-out-creationists-the-grand-canyon-just-got-older/#comment-286414 spinoza post 644, well your comment: "Perhpas, however, many of the other brands probably weren’t all that far removed from the “alien” metaphor, either?" has merit if for no other reason than Jesus lived during a time of apocolyptic Judaism which itself appears to be a very mystical form of religion. And it is reasonable to argue that some of his followers were themselves mystics. However, a reasonable argument can be made that some of the followers of Jesus considered him to be a great Rebbi, but not necessarily a miraculous person. So consider the following thought experiment: 1) look at the Q document, one version: http://www.cygnus-study.com/pageq.html Focus on the Q1 material if you find such refinement interesting. I find the material labeled QS9 in the web link most interesting 2) now consider, if these were the only materials we had regarding Jesus, what would you say about his teachings? 3) would you consider these teaching sufficient to justify forming a movement? Think back on Rebbi Hillel. Now admittedly no one can demonstrate that Q as a document existed. Likewise, however, based on the Q critical methodology, anyone who accepts the Gospels will also have to consider strongly that the Q materials are arguably from the traditions regarding Jesus. And your thoughts? spinoza post 644,

well your comment:

“Perhpas, however, many of the other brands probably weren’t all that far removed from the “alien” metaphor, either?”

has merit if for no other reason than Jesus lived during a time of apocolyptic Judaism which itself appears to be a very mystical form of religion.

And it is reasonable to argue that some of his followers were themselves mystics.

However, a reasonable argument can be made that some of the followers of Jesus considered him to be a great Rebbi, but not necessarily a miraculous person.

So consider the following thought experiment:

1) look at the Q document, one version:

http://www.cygnus-study.com/pageq.html

Focus on the Q1 material if you find such refinement interesting. I find the material labeled QS9 in the web link most interesting

2) now consider, if these were the only materials we had regarding Jesus, what would you say about his teachings?

3) would you consider these teaching sufficient to justify forming a movement? Think back on Rebbi Hillel.

Now admittedly no one can demonstrate that Q as a document existed.

Likewise, however, based on the Q critical methodology, anyone who accepts the Gospels will also have to consider strongly that the Q materials are arguably from the traditions regarding Jesus.

And your thoughts?

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