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	<title>Comments on: Evolutionary evangelicalism</title>
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		<title>By: Kiyoshi</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281957</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiyoshi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mead makes at least a couple of good points, although he doesn&#039;t make them as clearly as I&#039;d like.

First, mainstream evangelicalism appears to be shifting away from the populist demagoguery that been a hallmark of evangelical activism for the last quarter century.  Younger evangelicals tend to be wealthier, better educated, and more likely to live in urban areas than their parents.  But upper-middle-class urbanites tend to loathe populism and demagoguery of any kind, whether it be from Jerry Falwell or Al Sharpton.  

Second, this shift is also having a cultural effect.  Branson, Missouri, is a perfect symbol of the evangelicalism of yesteryear -- a syncretistic admixture of orthodox Christianity and American rural folk culture.  Many on this blog, such as Leavitt, above, can see no distinction between the prejudices of American rural folk culture and Christianity.  Therefore, as younger evangelicals seek to create an orthodoxy free of our ugly revivalistic past, we are accused of being compromisers.  But nothing could be further from the truth.  We&#039;re just not repeating the compromises of the previous generations -- compromises that many in the Dobson/Falwell crowd simply take for granted (as orthodoxy).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mead makes at least a couple of good points, although he doesn&#8217;t make them as clearly as I&#8217;d like.</p>
<p>First, mainstream evangelicalism appears to be shifting away from the populist demagoguery that been a hallmark of evangelical activism for the last quarter century.  Younger evangelicals tend to be wealthier, better educated, and more likely to live in urban areas than their parents.  But upper-middle-class urbanites tend to loathe populism and demagoguery of any kind, whether it be from Jerry Falwell or Al Sharpton.  </p>
<p>Second, this shift is also having a cultural effect.  Branson, Missouri, is a perfect symbol of the evangelicalism of yesteryear &#8212; a syncretistic admixture of orthodox Christianity and American rural folk culture.  Many on this blog, such as Leavitt, above, can see no distinction between the prejudices of American rural folk culture and Christianity.  Therefore, as younger evangelicals seek to create an orthodoxy free of our ugly revivalistic past, we are accused of being compromisers.  But nothing could be further from the truth.  We&#8217;re just not repeating the compromises of the previous generations &#8212; compromises that many in the Dobson/Falwell crowd simply take for granted (as orthodoxy).
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		<title>By: Anlir</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281925</link>
		<dc:creator>Anlir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 00:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I continue to believe that the height of conservative Christianity&#039;s political influence and power was the Terry Schiavo case.  The American people reacted quite negatively to their over-reach, and their power and influence have been in a slow decline since then.

There has also been a steady changing of the guard in the leadership of conservative Christianity, which is exposing some real tensions.  I think we could see another split, much like when evangelicals split into two camps: fundamentalists and mainline Evangelicals.

The thing is, people grow up and mature.  They realize that fighting over things doesn&#039;t bring as much pleasure as it once did and that everything is more nuanced in life than they once thought it was.  One cannot stay angry their whole life.  Well, they can, but they end up bitter and alone.

Some of our conservative Christian friends are starting to realize that politics is never going to bring about the change they seek.  They&#039;re starting to become more thoughtful, more reasonable, and (gasp!) kinder.  Their more argumentative brethren are starting to direct their anger toward them.  It doesn&#039;t bode well when you have members of one group going after one another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I continue to believe that the height of conservative Christianity&#8217;s political influence and power was the Terry Schiavo case.  The American people reacted quite negatively to their over-reach, and their power and influence have been in a slow decline since then.</p>
<p>There has also been a steady changing of the guard in the leadership of conservative Christianity, which is exposing some real tensions.  I think we could see another split, much like when evangelicals split into two camps: fundamentalists and mainline Evangelicals.</p>
<p>The thing is, people grow up and mature.  They realize that fighting over things doesn&#8217;t bring as much pleasure as it once did and that everything is more nuanced in life than they once thought it was.  One cannot stay angry their whole life.  Well, they can, but they end up bitter and alone.</p>
<p>Some of our conservative Christian friends are starting to realize that politics is never going to bring about the change they seek.  They&#8217;re starting to become more thoughtful, more reasonable, and (gasp!) kinder.  Their more argumentative brethren are starting to direct their anger toward them.  It doesn&#8217;t bode well when you have members of one group going after one another.
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		<title>By: adios</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281859</link>
		<dc:creator>adios</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well said Ajisuun.

Politics is based on economic philosiphis. Many Christians I know in SD county are &#039;Pubs while all of the Christians I know in LA County are Dems. On the essentials there is a pleasant unity, on the rest there is, well, just politics. 

And both are finding--no matter how they vote--that God can set up kings and take them down and in the meantime, we have work to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said Ajisuun.</p>
<p>Politics is based on economic philosiphis. Many Christians I know in SD county are &#8216;Pubs while all of the Christians I know in LA County are Dems. On the essentials there is a pleasant unity, on the rest there is, well, just politics. </p>
<p>And both are finding&#8211;no matter how they vote&#8211;that God can set up kings and take them down and in the meantime, we have work to do.
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		<title>By: Ajisuun</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281729</link>
		<dc:creator>Ajisuun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I find it offensive that many people equate having liberal beliefs to being mature. (Moving to the left equals moving toward maturity?) Frankly, when is comes to maturity, it seems like a mature person is one who knows his own core values and holds them even when there is pressure to compromise.  You don&#039;t see liberals saying that compromising their positions is a step toward maturity.

Regarding evangelism, the gospel cannot be compromised or it is just another religion.  

The various political positions are just political positions and should not be confused with Christianity.  Yes, many Christian hold similar views based on their understanding of Scripture, but let&#039;s not define Christianity by politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it offensive that many people equate having liberal beliefs to being mature. (Moving to the left equals moving toward maturity?) Frankly, when is comes to maturity, it seems like a mature person is one who knows his own core values and holds them even when there is pressure to compromise.  You don&#8217;t see liberals saying that compromising their positions is a step toward maturity.</p>
<p>Regarding evangelism, the gospel cannot be compromised or it is just another religion.  </p>
<p>The various political positions are just political positions and should not be confused with Christianity.  Yes, many Christian hold similar views based on their understanding of Scripture, but let&#8217;s not define Christianity by politics.
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		<title>By: mac</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281698</link>
		<dc:creator>mac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well Harrison, Loren Wilkinson told me (actually the whole Old Testament overview class) in no uncertain terms to stop defending creationism because it embarrasses him when talking to professor friends of his.  Regent College Vancouver BC is a single issue school.  It is all green all the time and it is tied to one political party, the Liberal party sometimes NDP.  If you don&#039;t tow this line, the environment is very oppressive.  

Mead&#039;s shibboleth is &#039;moderate&#039; which means not conservative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Harrison, Loren Wilkinson told me (actually the whole Old Testament overview class) in no uncertain terms to stop defending creationism because it embarrasses him when talking to professor friends of his.  Regent College Vancouver BC is a single issue school.  It is all green all the time and it is tied to one political party, the Liberal party sometimes NDP.  If you don&#8217;t tow this line, the environment is very oppressive.  </p>
<p>Mead&#8217;s shibboleth is &#8216;moderate&#8217; which means not conservative.
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		<title>By: Peter Leavitt</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281678</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Leavitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Walter Russell Mead is yet another &quot;progressive&quot; who is writing more about his hope and illusion than reality. Yes, there are some liberal evangelicals who pant for acceptance from the mainstream secular culture; however, the vast majority of evangelicals, along with orthodox Christians and Orthodox Jews are not soon going to give up their serious religious stance.

While serious Christians don&#039;t want any sort of statist meddling in their religion, they do want a voice in the public square on serious moral issues including abortion and homosexual marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walter Russell Mead is yet another &#8220;progressive&#8221; who is writing more about his hope and illusion than reality. Yes, there are some liberal evangelicals who pant for acceptance from the mainstream secular culture; however, the vast majority of evangelicals, along with orthodox Christians and Orthodox Jews are not soon going to give up their serious religious stance.</p>
<p>While serious Christians don&#8217;t want any sort of statist meddling in their religion, they do want a voice in the public square on serious moral issues including abortion and homosexual marriage.
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		<title>By: Night Train</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281655</link>
		<dc:creator>Night Train</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The author is right on the A, wrong on B.  Evvies certainly are getting more moderate (read liberal), but they most certainly are not getting more powerful.  The movement is just getting more respect/fewer hassles as it moves away from emphasizing its more unpopular stances, abortion/gays/creches at the courthouse, and starts emphasizing the things liberals want emphasized, like  poverty, global warming, aid to Africa, opposition to &quot;racism&quot;, etc., blah blah blah.  Liberals and most evangelicals call this &quot;maturing&quot;; less &quot;progressive&quot; evangelicals call it selling out, compromising, being conformed to the world, etc.  They&#039;re right, of course, in a way, but they can&#039;t see the forest for the trees - evangelical Christianity is where nutcase liberalism springs from.  It&#039;s no accident that the hard core fundamentalist denominations of a century and a half ago are now the far left mainline churches.  It&#039;s not due to &quot;infiltration&quot; and &quot;subversion&quot; as Gary North and other goofball conspiracy nutjobs like to imagine; it&#039;s simply the nature of evangelical Christianity to become more and more liberal over time.  There are a few exceptions - the Salvation Army comes to mind - but it&#039;s rare to find a church/denomination/Christian group that&#039;s been around for 200 or 300 years that&#039;s still orthodox.  And the process usually doesn&#039;t take that long.

&lt;i&gt;So, is American Christianity that changeable?   &lt;/i&gt;

Of course it is.  The Bible itself is perfectly malleable, so that people can generally find whatever they want to in it.  Even when they ignore/contradict its plain teachings, i.e. that God approves of slavery and polygamy, they can always find a &quot;principle&quot; in the Bible that renders those clear and undeniable, but currently unfashionable, Bible teachings null and void.  The same process is underway right now with regard to homosexuality.  Joel Mark says the Golden Rule negates everything the Bible says about slavery; Barack Obama says the Golden Rule negates everything the Bible says about homosexuality.

&lt;i&gt;In every way, the evangelical movement in the United States looks as if it is maturing.&lt;/i&gt;

By maturing, the author means becoming more liberal politically.

&lt;i&gt;That means more social and political influence, not less, as the movement broadens, reaches into the elite, and develops messages with wider appeal.&lt;/i&gt;

No, it means more acceptance, not influence,  as the movement becomes more liberal, becomes more acceptable to the elites, and sheds those parts of its platform that turns liberals off, like opposing abortion and homosexuality.

&lt;i&gt;Yet it also means a more pluralistic and less strident movement, more apt to compromise and less likely to be held hostage by a single issue or a single party.&lt;/i&gt;

See?  What did I tell ya?

&lt;i&gt;The real story of the evangelical political movement today involves neither its death nor its triumph, but rather its slow (and ongoing) shift from insurgent to insider, with all of the moderating effects that transition implies.&lt;/i&gt;

See?  What did I tell ya?  It just means that evangelicalism is becoming more liberal, and therefore more acceptable.  And, again, this is nothing new.  Evangelical Christianity is the root of liberalism in this country.  There may be a few self avowed secular humanists out there, but the vast majority of American liberals are professing Christians, and even among those who aren&#039;t, most of them grew in Christian homes.  It&#039;s simply the nature of evangelicalism to become more and more politically liberal over time.  It&#039;s message contains the seeds of its own destruction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The author is right on the A, wrong on B.  Evvies certainly are getting more moderate (read liberal), but they most certainly are not getting more powerful.  The movement is just getting more respect/fewer hassles as it moves away from emphasizing its more unpopular stances, abortion/gays/creches at the courthouse, and starts emphasizing the things liberals want emphasized, like  poverty, global warming, aid to Africa, opposition to &#8220;racism&#8221;, etc., blah blah blah.  Liberals and most evangelicals call this &#8220;maturing&#8221;; less &#8220;progressive&#8221; evangelicals call it selling out, compromising, being conformed to the world, etc.  They&#8217;re right, of course, in a way, but they can&#8217;t see the forest for the trees &#8211; evangelical Christianity is where nutcase liberalism springs from.  It&#8217;s no accident that the hard core fundamentalist denominations of a century and a half ago are now the far left mainline churches.  It&#8217;s not due to &#8220;infiltration&#8221; and &#8220;subversion&#8221; as Gary North and other goofball conspiracy nutjobs like to imagine; it&#8217;s simply the nature of evangelical Christianity to become more and more liberal over time.  There are a few exceptions &#8211; the Salvation Army comes to mind &#8211; but it&#8217;s rare to find a church/denomination/Christian group that&#8217;s been around for 200 or 300 years that&#8217;s still orthodox.  And the process usually doesn&#8217;t take that long.</p>
<p><i>So, is American Christianity that changeable?   </i></p>
<p>Of course it is.  The Bible itself is perfectly malleable, so that people can generally find whatever they want to in it.  Even when they ignore/contradict its plain teachings, i.e. that God approves of slavery and polygamy, they can always find a &#8220;principle&#8221; in the Bible that renders those clear and undeniable, but currently unfashionable, Bible teachings null and void.  The same process is underway right now with regard to homosexuality.  Joel Mark says the Golden Rule negates everything the Bible says about slavery; Barack Obama says the Golden Rule negates everything the Bible says about homosexuality.</p>
<p><i>In every way, the evangelical movement in the United States looks as if it is maturing.</i></p>
<p>By maturing, the author means becoming more liberal politically.</p>
<p><i>That means more social and political influence, not less, as the movement broadens, reaches into the elite, and develops messages with wider appeal.</i></p>
<p>No, it means more acceptance, not influence,  as the movement becomes more liberal, becomes more acceptable to the elites, and sheds those parts of its platform that turns liberals off, like opposing abortion and homosexuality.</p>
<p><i>Yet it also means a more pluralistic and less strident movement, more apt to compromise and less likely to be held hostage by a single issue or a single party.</i></p>
<p>See?  What did I tell ya?</p>
<p><i>The real story of the evangelical political movement today involves neither its death nor its triumph, but rather its slow (and ongoing) shift from insurgent to insider, with all of the moderating effects that transition implies.</i></p>
<p>See?  What did I tell ya?  It just means that evangelicalism is becoming more liberal, and therefore more acceptable.  And, again, this is nothing new.  Evangelical Christianity is the root of liberalism in this country.  There may be a few self avowed secular humanists out there, but the vast majority of American liberals are professing Christians, and even among those who aren&#8217;t, most of them grew in Christian homes.  It&#8217;s simply the nature of evangelicalism to become more and more politically liberal over time.  It&#8217;s message contains the seeds of its own destruction.
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281627</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think it&#039;s a trend away from conflating religion with politics.  

Just as reasonable people can and do disagree on whether to be &quot;pacifist [or] jingoist; laissez-faire [or] populist,&quot; so can people of faith.  I would think they&#039;d want the Gospel to reach all, regardless of transient political divisions, and thus try to appeal as broadly as possible across the political spectrum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s a trend away from conflating religion with politics.  </p>
<p>Just as reasonable people can and do disagree on whether to be &#8220;pacifist [or] jingoist; laissez-faire [or] populist,&#8221; so can people of faith.  I would think they&#8217;d want the Gospel to reach all, regardless of transient political divisions, and thus try to appeal as broadly as possible across the political spectrum.
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		<title>By: hrw</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281621</link>
		<dc:creator>hrw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Centres of power are like the Borg, they assimilate and modify all insurgent movements, dulling their edges before accepting them into the fold and removing their reform/revolutionary edges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Centres of power are like the Borg, they assimilate and modify all insurgent movements, dulling their edges before accepting them into the fold and removing their reform/revolutionary edges.
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		<title>By: Erasmus</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/03/10/evolutionary-evangelicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-281610</link>
		<dc:creator>Erasmus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Could this be teh Beast?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could this be teh Beast?
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