Parents pray, girl dies
The death of 11-year-old Madeline Kara Neumann has shocked the town of Weston, Wisconsin. Madeline died of ketoacidosis, a treatable though serious condition of type 1 diabetes in which acid builds up in the blood. Hardly anyone dies of ketoacidosis in the United States. Madeline’s parents said they didn’t know she had diabetes. When she became ill, they didn’t take her to a doctor. The circumstances of her illness are in dispute, Fox News reports:
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin has said an autopsy determined Madeline died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body. She had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, he said.
But Leilani Neumann said her daughter, a straight A student, was in good health until recently.
“We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks,” she said. “And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering.”
Instead, Madeline died last Sunday. The Neumann’s other three children, all teens, have been removed from the home and are staying with relatives. Charges against the Neumanns are pending. Madeline’s death raises profound legal and moral questions over religious belief and practice, especially when the life of a child is at stake. What are your thoughts?




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back to top58 Comments to “Parents pray, girl dies”
I can’t tell you how sad I am about this. This just makes me sick.
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Wow if you read the article from the local media, it sure doesn’t sound like dispute.
In Dispute?
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
“She got sicker and sicker until she was dead,” he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl’s parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to “apparently they didn’t have enough faith,” the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing “was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray,” he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
But, from Lynn’s source:
Her mother, Leilani Neumann, told The Associated Press that she never expected her daughter, whom she called Kara, to die. The family believes in the Bible, and it says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people, she said.
Poisoning the well.
The girl’s father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he has friends who are doctors. He started CPR “as soon as the breath of life left” his daughter’s body, he said.
Other family members called 911 to seek emergency help, Leilani Neumann said.
“We are remaining strong for our children,” she said. “Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time.”
Not really the best time to stop praying and do something about the situation, huh?
“We just believe in the Bible, that’s all,” she said. “This is our faith.”
Her husband added that, “We believe the word of God and live according to its precepts.”
Leilani Neumann said the family is not worried about a police investigation into her daughter’s death because “our lives are in God’s hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do.”
Actually, Ms Neumann, your life is in the hands of the state of California. The life that you had in your hands you have destroyed. Someone should save those other kids from this insane asylum, before they contract the brain parasite that has consumed Mr and Mrs Neumann.
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I am sad from the death of the girl. Perversions of faith are upsetting, but where does one draw the line? What precident does this set by forcing a family to choose modern science over their religion? The entire platform of “Faith in God instead of medicine” is fallacious in that Luke was a doctor. However, what are the rights of parents and do we as a society want to cede more of our rights to the secular progressives within our Government?
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#3 i’m not so sure that ’secular progressives’ really captures the variation you are interested in. I’d argue that ‘progressive’ does. Odds are that most of the folks involved in politics are religious believers so I don’t think this is the appropriate context for your objection to what I otherwise agree: it ain’t the governments business.
but it should be the family’s business and they should get those other kids away from these murders.
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If this guys pipes burst he wouldn’t just pray about it, he would call a plumber. Why is getting the help of a doctor any different?
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Death is a sad thing and death in a child is especially so. Deciding the parents are evil murderers based on what little we know seems a bit sad as well.
From what I have read, the parents had no problem with doctors. Perhaps they had their children vaccinated against all childhood diseases and perhaps not. Perhaps they took the kids in for every ear ache and perhaps not. Perhaps it looked to them like a typical case of the flu or something like that. It sounds like she had tpical symptoms of typical illnesses until the end and they guessed wrong. Perhaps it could have been any of us. He began CPR as soon as it was called for, that would indicate a belief in medical services.
Somebody above asks where do we draw the line. I don’t know but I am sure this family is devastated and separating the kids from the parents at this time is not necessarily in anybody’s best interest. Do we believe all the other children are suddenly going to contract diabetes 1 and abruptly go into ketosis?
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Darth Truk; I am sad from the death of the girl. Perversions of faith are upsetting, but where does one draw the line?
…especially when those of faith try to impose their faith’s rules on everybody.
Mumsee: I don’t know if you read the omitted quotes that Erasmus provided before you posted, but it does seem very clear that these people had a very sick child on their hands for some time and intentionally opted for prayer rather than a visit to the doctor.
I know you to claim to be “pro-life”, but I find that label difficult to swallow. If this woman had swallowed an RU-486 pill when she got pregnant, or done an early term abortion, you would have been among the first to accuse them of murder. But when it comes to a living, breathing vibrant human being with thoughts, emotions, friends and memories, you suddenly start making excuses for carelessly allowing her to die and suggest that the state shouldn’t dare take their other kids away pending an investigation.
The result is the same, and in my opinion, much more tragic here.
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Arcadia,
We as parents make many decisions for our children and this was one of those that turns out to have been tragically wrong. Kids are injured or die and it is always sad and we can often armchair quarterback and say how evil the parents were for not knowing the future. In this case, I think the parents saw their daughter as sick and outside friends saw her as sicker than those in hourly contact with her could see. In my own life, my three year old had pneumonia and it took a neighbor speaking up a couple of times for me to take him to the doc as I thought it was just a cold. We do not always see what is before our eyes.
They have friends that are doctors, they believe in going to the doctor, they drew the line in the wrong place and were horribly and permanently wrong, something they will remember for the rest of their lives. I will wait for Stubob or our other docs to weigh in before assuming they knew their child had a life threatening illness and deliberately withheld medical assistance from her.
As to this case and those where a parent deliberately chooses to end the life of her child, there is no comparison. It is clear that these folks loved their daughter and other kids and it was not their intention for her to die.
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Well, Mumsee, your interpretation of the events seems plausible to me. In fact, I was thinking the same thing. But, of course, that’s just our subjective opinions. It’s clear from the news article that the parents were religious nutjobs, and when it comes to discussions regarding Christians, you can’t argue with those “objective” mainstream media guys.
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One of our daughters was seriously ill several years ago. We didn’t take her to the doctor for 4 days, thinking it was simply a cold, but you better believe, 4 days later we were taking her in. That was when we discovered how ill she was (ended up in PICU for more than a week, collapsed lung, surgery, the whole bit).
Now, when any of our kids shows illness, we err on the side of taking them in early. It only takes one instance of this kind of fear to instill in you a need for due diligence here. I’m no longer afraid of having them diagnosed as having a cold and being sent home with a sticker and some tissue. That’s okay.
Does this mean we don’t believe in the power of prayer? Not at all. But we also believe in being responsibile for our family with the place in history in which God has placed us. He has placed us in a time with good medical intervention. Yes, we will pray. Yes, we will seek medical help. The two things do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I’m so sad for this family. And as sad as I am the the other children were removed, until it is proven that the parents wouldn’t do the same thing in a smiliar situation with one of their other children, I’m inclined to think removing them was the best thing.
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Mumsee: It also seems clear that faith played a significant role in their decision not to seek help. The bible in quite a few places makes it clear that god, not the science of medicine is the route to both avoiding and curing diseases.
I suspect, though I cannot know, that these people were victimized by a cult which adopted those bible verses.
2 Chronicles:
16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
16:13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.
James:
5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
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I understand your point, Megan, but why should we presume that these parents weren’t just doing exactly what you did with your daughter–underestimating the seriousness of her condition–only with a much more tragic result. Why should we presume that they have some fundamental conviction against medical care when they seem to be saying that they don’t? Why should we presume that their statements that they believe in praying for the sick means that they reject doctors as a God-ordained means of healing? Why should we trust, without sufficient evidence, the interpretation of the events by a news source that uses some selective quotes that make these people look like evil religious whackos? My suspicion is that, if these people were secularists, they’d be treated with sympathy, not contempt and condemnation. I could be wrong, but that’s the impression this article gives me.
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Arcadia,
Again, we don’t know from the limited info available. They did say their church was not what lead them to do this, it was a personal matter. Yes, people do interpret the Bible to their own ends and there is some confusion in some areas, but we do not know at this stage.
People die from meningitis, does that mean a parent is remiss for not taking the child in for a headache or stiff neck? People die from appendicitis, do we take the kids away if they complain of a pain in their side and aren’t taken in immediately? Yes, we encourage people to err on the side of caution, but at what point do we allow the parents to make a judgement call and then come alongside and mourn with them when it is wrong rather than destroy what remains of their family?
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I ‘m not sure we have the whole story here. I mean there may be more to it. I’m guessing from the less than objective reporting on the story that it was not the parents’ intention for her to either die or be cured. Was there an insurance issue (or lack thereof) that may have contributed to the parents’ decision process? I think that she may not have appeared to be as sick as she actually was and by the time the parents realized it, it was too late to save her. It may have been a tragic mistake, but I don’t think there was intent to let her die. I think it is insult to injury to remove the other children from the grieving parents. It may be better for them if they can grieve as a family over their child and sister. I do think there may have been some conclusion jumping on the part of the police and the media.
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On the theory that the best defense is a good offense, here is CBN’s headline on this case:
FAMILY INVESTIGATED AFTER PRAYING FOR DAUGHTER
Oh my goodness, they’re after us again…
(Incidentally, the story and a linked press release reveal that the parents ran a coffee shop ministry and had previously submitted testimonies of healings to a Christian website.)
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Last year a very good friend of mine got sick. I was very surprised when she wasn’t present at the farewell party of a woman who’d lived in our commununity for about five years, and was leaving to go back to Japan, because the two women had become very close friends. I knew she must be quite ill to miss the event.
A couple of nurses encouraged her to go to the doctor, but she didn’t have insurance, and she chose bedrest. Finally she had to go to the emergency room–and found her appendix had burst. She survived, but it was touch and go. She waited too long–and even against medical advice.
My point? We are all guessing when it comes to medical stuff. We have a variety of reasons for delaying a trip to the doctor. I had a bladder infection a couple years ago that turned into a kidney infection when the first antibiotic failed to work. I was sick enough that I left my address book on the kitchen table with a note to my roommate. I knew I might need emergency medical attention if the second medication didn’t clear the infection nearly immediately–but I chose to wait. In that case, waiting was the right decision. The next morning I was better.
Unless there’s some real evidence of criminal negligence here, it seems to me we should start with the assumptions that the parents loved their child and they had no idea she was in danger of dying. Losing their other children seems like compounding the grief, and it’s a tragedy for the children as well–they lost their sister, and now they lose their parents as well? Hideous.
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Ahh so we are rewriting the article so that it accords with our wishes.
let us not forget that the police chief had evidence to believe that the girl could still be resurrrected.
These people really seemed to be the religious nut cases that that ‘mainstream media’ is making them out to be (#17). Why should you minimize this point?
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Take my post back. It was hasty and judgmental and I think Mumsee makes more sense.
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As a Christian parent, I’m trying to think through how I would address the awful situation where I thought my child only had a cold and he ended up dying. Not unlike the close calls described by Megan #10 and Cheryl d #14.
It feels to me as though I would be saying (over and over again) “I just had no idea he was that ill.” I don’t think I’d be saying, “I prayed for him but he didn’t get better.”
I’m sympathetic, but somehow, this story seems fishy to me.
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I think we should not let this case be tried in the media. There may be mitigating circumstances that have not come out and I think the media is definitely biased.
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Erasmus,
The bodily resurrection is the belief of all Christians. It’s a principal defining characteristic of Christianity. Anyone who starts with the assumption that people who believe that their loved ones will be resurrected is blatantly biased against all Christians. I think, though, that you’re implying that these parents are standing around praying and waiting for their daughter to be resuscitated by God in her mortal body. The article seems to imply the same thing. What they don’t do is provide any convincing evidence that this is what the parents believe. Just a bunch of innuendo based on contextless quotes from the parents.
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As we discuss this, the folks at Unleavened Bread Ministries are rapidly revising their home page and press release page to sell more mp3’s, tapes and materials and profit from the death of this young girl.
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My daycare provider’s little girl (3) was diagnosed with diabetes last summer. This after several months of bad behavior, thirstiness (not extreme, but she always preferred drink over food), peeing through her diaper (potty training wasn’t going well, and she leaked through at night). Finally, they brought her in and her blood sugar was over 1200! She should have been in a coma at that point. Her dad is a minister. Of course they prayed. But, they also didn’t realize that there was something so serious wrong with her. Hindsight is 20/20 and they now recognize there were symptoms that they missed at the time. Should they be punished for it if she had died? I don’t think so. But, I’m sure there is more to this story, so it’s hard to judge this particular case.
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Mommy,
Do you think it possible that the article may have just quoted selectively? Do you think that it may just sound “fishy” because that’s precisely how the article is designed to make it sound? Do you think it possible that maybe, just maybe, the mainstream media presents these Christian parents as a mirror image of their own biases?
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Ree, “yes” to all.
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I just read the linked testimony from the girl’s mother, and, I’ve got to admit, it did make me a little more credulous toward the original article. But perhaps that’s just a reflection of my own bias against Pentacostalist-type Christianity since it didn’t actually say anything about rejecting modern medicine. Or maybe the parents really are religious nutjobs.
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Ree,
It is possible but we don’t know from the information we have. I tend to lean toward letting people live life their way and everybody draws the line somewhere. As a homeshcool parent involved with foster chilren, I am very cautious about how much is too much outside involvement in personal lives.
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From the Fond-du-lac newspaper:
WESTON — Everest Metro police took several books on healing powers and faith, as well as computer equipment, from a town of Weston home where an 11-year-old girl died from an untreated illness, according to a search warrant obtained today by the Wausau Daily Herald.
Madeline Kara Neumann died Sunday after her parents chose to pray for her recovery instead of taking her to a hospital. Neumann’s parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, did not know she had diabetes and had not taken her to a doctor since she was 3 years old, police said.
Neumann’s grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that Neumann was unable to walk or talk on Saturday and she advised Leilani Neumann to take her to a hospital, according to the search warrant.
Leilani told Gordon that the girl, who went by her middle name, Kara, would be fine and God would heal her, the warrant said.
Evalani Neumann called her daughter-in-law Ariel Ness on Sunday in California after she was told by Leilani Neumann that Kara was in a coma. Ness, who identified herself as Ariel Gomez to authorities, then called the Marathon County Sheriff’s Department about 2 p.m. Sunday and asked for an ambulance.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin is expected to complete his investigation today and give the information to the Marathon County District Attorney’s office.
Among the items seized by police were:
• More than a dozen books on health or religion.
• A book written by David Eells, who operates an online church called Unleavened Bread Ministries.
• Journals written by Dale, Leilani and Kara Neumann.
• Three laptop computers and two computer towers.
• Insurance paperwork and Blue Cross HMO cards for the family.
• A syringe and a medicine cup with a red liquid inside.
So we have insurance and no MD visit for a child for 8 years. And apparently the parents never called the authorities even AFTER the child had died. Plus the good reverend Eells advice (and rather slimy fundraising proclivities).
Hey, if it’s end times, why bother taking your kid to the doctor?
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Yes, I agree with you Mumsee. Without compelling evidence that these parents would knowingly refuse medical intervention for a seriously ill child, I don’t think the state should be involved. And the only compelling evidence I can imagine would be the parents outright stating that they reject modern medicine as a legitimate means for healing. Anyway, now that this has happened, I’m sure that friends, relatives, and neighbors will be paying closer attention and will be quicker to intervene if anything else like this comes up. And in general, our friends, relatives, and neighbors should keep be the ones involved in our personal lives–not the state.
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ree
bodily resurrection of your lost children is a principal defining characteristic of christianity? I hardly think so. Your point that I may have been surreptitiously led down this chain of reasoning by the article is one I cannot deny. After all, if you read the original article then you will see that the parents said that the death occurred because they didn’t have enough faith. Please tell me how that gets misreported. Perhaps they were talking tangentially about Davidson’s chances at getting into the Final 4 or something, right?
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I wonder why the family would pay for insurance if they don’t believe in doctors and medicine. Also, “a syringe and a medicine cup” sounds suspiciously like medicine to me.
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Arcadia,
Your research would indicate that the parents were, indeed influenced by unwise people. However, if owning a dozen books on health or religion is a crime, we are all in trouble. Owning a book by a crazy? I have a Koran. Journals written by people? That is how we research ideas. Three laptops, I only have one so I am safe. Insurance paperwork? Isn’t that in indicator of working with the system? A syringe and a medicine cup with a red liguid, Huh?
Do we have laws saying a child must visit an MD regardless of health? I got the impression dad sarted CPR and somebody else called, he was busy trying to resusitate.
A lot of people are into alternative medicine. A lot of people are interested in health and religion. A lot of people are saddened that this beautiful little girl died. Does that mean that anybody not toeing the line needs to be eliminated? Do we make a knee jerk reaction that all parents who are not raising their children according to the standard of the chosen few are bad parents?
I know something about bad parents and I warn that we need to be very careful on this. Meantime, this family is devastated, let the courts do their job, and let the family and friends mourn.
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What do you mean, you “hardly think so.” If you don’t know that about Christianity, either you haven’t been paying attention or we’ve been doing an awfully poor job of conveying our faith. So yes, Erasmus, Christ was resurrected as the firstfruits, and the eventual bodily resurrection of all believers is basic Christianity. Christianity isn’t gnosticism.
As a Christian, I believe that God ordains the ends as well as the means, and that doctors and medicine are a means that God often uses to heal people. Therefore, if I or my children were sick enough to require medical intervention, I’d seek it out, and thank God for the outcome.
The parents’ comment that their child died because of their lack of faith is poor theology, but it doesn’t prove that they didn’t believe in doctors. It’s poor theology, because the Bible teaches us that it’s God who ultimately ordains the times of our death, and that our faith is to be in Him and His goodness, not in our own ability to will things according to our preferences.
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“Do we make a knee jerk reaction that all parents who are not raising their children according to the standard of the chosen few are bad parents?”
What on earth are you talking about? The silly desparation of trying to defend the indefensible shows through when you characterize the vast majority of Christians who know enough to seek appropriate medical care for their children as “the chosen few.” Some things, and this is one of them, are simply too embarrassing to defend.
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Trolls love it when they can push people into ridiculous stances.
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The article that Lynn refers to says:
The child had not seen a doctor since the age of 3? That’s very strange!
The child didnt’ return to school for the second semester? Why didn’t the school find out WHY?
They believed in the Word of GOD, yet they were not connected to a church?
The father had been a police officer and had left to open a ‘coffee shop’?
I think there’s another story here.
All very STRANGE-
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I think that by, “the chosen few,” Mumsee was referring to the recommendations of the AMA or something to that effect. Those who try to define at what ages and stages children must be seen by a pediatrician, what vaccines they must receive and when, etc.
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Victoria,
I’m not defending these people because I don’t know what the real story is, but none of those things are necessarily so strange as to make the parents automatically suspect.
Many children don’t go to the doctor if they aren’t chronically or seriously ill. I went throughout most of my childhood without ever seeing a doctor, even though I had measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, the whole nine yards. I was the youngest of 5 children, and my mother had been through all these things with the other kids, and she knew the doctor’s recommendations on all of them. I had no complications, and I’m healthy to this day–well into middle age.
There’s nothing strange about children not returning to school, either. Surely you don’t regard homeschooling as necessarily suspect, do you? Perhaps its strange that the school didn’t inquire, but that’s not the parent’s issue; it’s the school’s.
Also Christian coffee shops aren’t an unusual ministry, and as a Christian, I can’t believe you would find it suspect when one leave’s his regular employment for full-time ministry.
Not being part of a regular church isn’t that strange–lot’s of perfectly orthodox believers are involved in home churches.
I don’t necessarily see in any of this the makings of “another story.”
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As I have said on this blog for years, there are over six billion people on the planet, not all will do things exactly according to what is the perceived correct way. Do we mandate that they are looney and must be “fixed” or do we let people be people up until when they start stepping too hard on other toes? The medical field has done some tremendous things and most of us are grateful that it is there. But that does not mean that all people who do not agree with every aspect of the medical field (you would have a hard time finding anyone in the medical field that agrees in all aspects) are evil monsters who need their children removed. It may well be that it will be found that there are “issues” here that need to be addressed. I am not happy with idea that because they did not do it ABC, they are bad. There daughter just died! How painful is that?????????
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Their daughter, sorry.
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Ree,
Insinuation is often sufficient evidence for Victoria.
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This should not be a media frenzy. A girl died. Now those who worship the state want the family investigated and the other children removed from the home.
Why aren’t those same people, who are crying out for action against these parents, downtown protesting against the killing of innocent babies at the abortion clinics? The answer is because it is OK to kill babies. They don’t care about life. They don’t care about families. They care about the need to worship the state rather than the true and living God. Worship God, not the state.
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Mumsee However, if owning a dozen books on health or religion is a crime, we are all in trouble.
I never said it was and you know better than that.
Negligently failing to act in such a way that a child dies unnecessarily is a crime. Encouraging a parent to do so should be as well.
While media reports can be deceiving, there is ample evidence from the mother and the Reverend’s own words, not to mention accounts from family members that make it very clear what happened here. I really can’t believe you are defending these people.
Well, I guess I can, but I find it sad.
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Ree – 38
When you put all the things you mention together in your post, YES, it becomes suspect.
When children are ill, they don’t eat, they are thirsty. High fever isn’t always present in an ill person of any age. Most adults know this, or they SHOULD.
Any child who has symptoms of lethargy, together with the symptoms this child had after a week or two should have been seen by a doctor, it’s a matter of ‘common sense’-
A child not so long ago had been very tired day after day, when awakened would cry (4) years old. The child’s skin was yellowish, the hair was dull, and the child didn’t want to eat. Further more the child had no interest in anything around them. I urged the parents whom I know well to seek medical help ASAP. Instead they relied on vitamins, etc. Finally after much begging on my part they took the child to a doctor, the doctor wanted an MRI ASAP, at which the parents decided to wait. I intervened, and became more involved, the parents relented took the child for an MRI.
This precious child had a pituitary tumor, which was very serious. How much longer this could have gone on I don’t want to know. The child had the surgery, and is doing very well. GOD answered prayer, we were very relieved.
YES the parents loved their child, but they weren’t taking the needed steps to find out why the child was not well, it had to be addressed.
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Arcadia,
I probably am not defending these people so much as I am defending the idea that people should be allowed to be different. As I said, the courts will determine guilt in so far as we are humanly able. Negligence is difficult to figure out. Obviously the child is dead. Obviously the parents did not take her for medical treatment. Was it poor decision making? Was it neglect? Was it something else?
As you well know, we have been involved in foster care for years and have seen some ugly things. We have wondered why children were not removed long before and we have wondered why children were removed at all. It is complicated and nobody has it right.
The “evidence” that was collected seemed a bit odd to me if you were using it as an indicator of the people’s guilt. I am still curious about the insurance paperwork, that makes the whole “these are bad guys” theory questionable to me.
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Victoria,
Your story is a good example of how the parents may not see the severity of the condition as they are with it twenty four hours.
Again, in the story, the child was apparently ill with what seemed typical “bug” stuff until near the end. The parents waited too long and may well have stepped over the line into thinking they could tell God what to do. We don’t know.
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Mumsee – 46
I have to disagree. TOO many parents have decided to seek a Naturopathic doctor, OR to read books, with symptoms and then buy the vitamins, etc which are suggested. When things go wrong, they say they didn’t know, but in essence they did know their child was ill. Kids don’t stay in the condition that child was in for over a week or 10 days without seeking medical help.
The other part of this story is, this girls father was a police officer. He was trained to notice things which are not normal, especially in children, within his line of work.
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victoria how do you know it wasn’t the Lords will anyway. Anything that you do is the lord’s will or else he is not the omnipresent omniscient omnipotent feller you think he is.
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This is a very sad situation. I would tend to agree with the majority, thinking that these parents should have taken their daughter to a doctor. Since they didn’t they are negligent, and deserve punishment. Here are the rest of my thoughts….
For someone who does not know the signs of type 1 diabetes, the disease is hard to recognize. The signs may have been present for a month, but they may not have been obvious; and possibly not even noticeable.
My daughter (now 3) was diagnosed at 18 months. Looking back, she had all of the classic symptoms; excessive thirst, frequent urination, little appetite, no energy, occasionally vomiting. I thought she had the flu. We were potty training, and encouraging her to drink a lot just to take her to the bathroom and get her into the rhythm of using the bathroom; we never turned her down if she wanted something to drink. Of course she had frequent urination, she was drinking a lot of water, juice, and milk. She had little appetite, but what toddler isn’t finicky when it comes to eating. For a toddler, this type of behavior was not abnormal. We didn’t really get concerned until that weekend, she slept nearly all day Friday, Saturday, and Sunday; again we thought she had the flu.
We took her to the doctor that Monday, who almost sent us home with a diagnosis of a urinary tract infection. It was only after an off-hand comment about excessive thirst that the doctor tested her glucose, she was over 575mg/dL. We were in the emergency room a half hour later, and admitted for three days. In hindsight, if we had waited another two days I am certain she would have died within a couple more days.
Given my personal experience, I can’t judge them too harshly. I am very sorry for their loss. I do not know that negligence is appropriate. I don’t think ignorance is a crime. I do believe they were unaware of their daughters condition. I also believe that diabetes can ravage the body quite suddenly, even though the signs may be present for weeks.
May God bless them.
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I too was one of those children who rarely went to a doctor. We got our basic shots, and I had my tonsils out when I was about six, but that is about it. I only remember going to the doctor once (though I’m sure I went more often, when I was too young to remember). But guess what? My mom reared seven children to adulthood, five of them boys, with not one broken bone or sprain. We had no chronic illnesses, no major injuries, nothing. We didn’t go to the doctor, but we really didn’t need to.
I know people who take their kids to the doctor for the flu. Mom didn’t. Kids get along fine without annual physicals, most of the time. And kids’ illnesses don’t usually lead to death. Probably these parents should have taken their child to the doctor. They will live with that for the rest of their lives. That doesn’t make them murderers. It doesn’t necessarily even make them criminally negligent.
A friend of mine once accused my own doctor of being the one who “killed her mom.” Shocked, I asked what she meant. My friend and her dad took the mom to this doctor once–he wasn’t their usual doctor–and he prescribed some sort of treatment. That evening she didn’t seem to be doing very well, and they called the doctor back. He told them to give her another dose and check her temperature, or something like that–no particular panic. Within a few hours she had died. The “killing her mom” part of the story came in because the doctor didn’t say, “Eek! She’s probably dying! Take her to the emergency room right now!” But in fact he’d seen her only one time in her life, and wasn’t in the room with her when her husband and daughter grew concerned. They were both adults, and if they’d been seriously concerned they could have taken her to the hospital. They chose not to, because the doctor on the telephone didn’t tell them to–and later they blamed the doctor. Unjustly, I think. But medicine isn’t as straightforward as a true/false test. Sometimes people die when technically they might have been saved with quicker or better treatment. That is part of life, an unfortunate part, but this idea that every death means we find someone to “blame” is hideous.
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I wondered what took this so long to show up here.
I have type 1 diabetes (and am typing this from my hospital room followin a weekend of inexplicable and nonresponisve high blood sugars.)
While I believe that much of what appears reported here seems to be sensationalized with the intent of showing the parents in a worse light than they deserve (the symptoms of ketoacidsosis can be subtle and easily enough attributable to other conditions, as a former police officer I need to remind Victoria in #47, that we were in no way trained to recognize what is an unusal medical condition beyond first aid) I still believe they were influenced enough by bad teaching to delay any effective action and bear some blame here.
I have been ordained in a Pentecostal church. I have witnessed remarkable healings that astonished medical authorities. I have never been averse to following medical procedures and have always, as do most charismatics and pentecostals, been suspicious of any teaching to avoid such treatment as somehow a test of faith.
The clear teaching of faith througout Scripture is that it is not the amount of faith that matters, it is in Whom we place that faith. Christian faith is trust in Jesus, not some self-hypnotic frenzy. The notion that their daughter died because they lacked sufficient faith may have destroyed their daughter; it will certainly destroy the parents if they can’t find repentance and forgiveness.
I immediately noticed this comment: “The family does not belong to an organized religion or faith, Leilani Neumann said.
“We just believe in the Bible, that’s all,” she said. “This is our faith.”
The sad truth is that, without some structure, sound teaching and accountability, the peril that an outpouring of the Spirit can find itself separated into miasmic pools of pestilence.
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Well, if these parents end up saying that, toward the end of their child’s life, they became confused because the child was delirious, but appeared to be speaking in tongues and they thought they were being blessed by God instead of actually watching their their child die completely by mistake – and a lawyer gets them off Scott free, then it will prove the end is nearer than we think.
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Erasmus – 48
We have ‘free will’ we aren’t robots!
Why have doctors at all with your attitude?
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“Anything that you do is the lord’s will or else he is not the omnipresent omniscient omnipotent feller you think he is.”
The attempt to reconcile free will with predestination has a long, elevated, and nuanced history. Concepts such as permissive will, absolute and ultimate will have been pressed into service to clarify the contextual uses of
Biblical references to God’s will.
Your preference for the snarky comment over an honest engagement with a vexing issue does you no credit.
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victoria i am not the one that imagines that there are scenarios where one might be healed by invisible gods or spirits. indeed, why doctors.
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Erasmus – 55
You have once again tangled GOD’s power to heal, with seeking medical help. You don’t understand it, so be it!
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Paul, Ken, and for anyone else who is a parent of or has diabetes mellitus type 1 (insulin dependent, childhood onset or not)…
My first question is in regards to what preceded the diagnosis of diabetes personally: what exactly did you or your child’s diet consist of most frequently (as a list) in the weeks prior to your diagnosis, even just prior to and during the development of the symptoms of frequent urination and fluid intake were developing?
Secondly, aside from people’s personal feelings of what you would if you were in the parents’ situation, who here is faultless and without error or sin that you may “cast the first stone(s)” and thereby stand in judgment of these parents?
Surely, whatever measure we use concerning others so it is used to measure ourselves. In the Bible, Hebrew or Christian, it states that God desires mercy and not sacrifice, so from the perspective of one trained in the medical field, the most important aspect of this scenario should be that of mercy and forgiveness and care, for the parents most especially. Sir William Osler even stated that the secret to caring for any patient is to care for the patient. In pediatrics, our care for the parents is just as important; in society, it should be no different. Regardless of their illness, poor prognosis or not, surely all patients need that love and care as if from a parent just as much or more than they may need or benefit from medical aide. Forcing people into a religion or government standard or to a seemingly safer practice was what preempted the rebellion that lead to the establishment of our United States, so we should not force anyone to the “care” of a physician. Even our patients are finding that when our methods fail, they still want to be loved, respected and “cared” for; essentially, they need to be loved. If these parents are claiming to have done what they deemed most loving and caring, then who are we to scold or punish them in their grief? How much more does such “schooling,” and berating drive anyone away from “care” that might have otherwise been more beneficial! Numerous substantial advances or even so called “cures” have been made by caregivers and physicians who were open to or sought out a compromise or alternative to the standard of care of that day. If we as a society support forcing healing measures upon families, then we have reduced them to experimental lab animals or pets at best. If the Neumanns become alienated for their choice to provide what was in their best judgment to be the most loving care for their daughter, then the lovingkindness we could have built up in our “medical care” and “social support” will crumble a little more beneath a cruel and tyrannical movement of despotism. Therefore, it is exceedingly comforting to hear so many here that voice their heartfelt love and sympathies for this family. Hopefully, incidents such as this will give many other physicians and nurses cause to reevaluate our methods and means and search again for the most loving approach to all of our patients’ illnesses.
No patient young or old has a duty or obligation to be treated by a physician; rather, it is the physician who on oath is obligated to be kindly respectful and thankful for entrusting part of their life into our care for the sole purpose of aiding in the healing process, which God obviously designed and formed without our imperfect help to begin with. As far as I can see, that young girl was far more blessed to have been in the care of those who had nursed her and loved her throughout her life as her spirit departed this world. Far more blessed than those who have grown to scoff and critique their parents ways instead of loving them beyond all that; instead, there are a great many other cold and harsh ways that people pass away as they become more blind, deaf, weak and inclined to ponder, somewhere along the way, which mode of demise they deem best.
If you are still inclined towards an disfavor of those parents, come to the hospital, nursing home, clinic or rehab facility in order to learn what these proverbs mean:
“A crushed spirit dries up the bones
“A cheerful heart is good medicine
“A desire prolonged makes the heart sick
“A longing fulfilled is a tree of life
“Love always hopes, always perseveres…
“Love never fails, but if there are prophecies, they will be done away; if there are tongues they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and prophecy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully even as I have been fully known. Now faith, hope, and love remain, but the greatest of these is love.”
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Paul, Ken, I meant to ask only the first question of you. Forgive me, I didn’t clarify well enough that the second question and discussion were for those in the forum that critiqued the actions of these parents of the young girl who passed away, the Neumanns.
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