Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., has died at age 77.
Click to Print
Include Comments
Doorways to life
I think the Muslims have the right idea.
Not that I will be converting anytime soon. But I have discovered the value — the soul cleansing and re-aligning power — of stopping whatever I’m doing several times a day to lie prostrate on the floor and pray away “stinkin’ thinkin’” that has accumulated like corrosion on a car battery.
The habit began spontaneously and evolved gradually, and I will not elevate it (or debase it) to a law. I will not do the prescribed ablutions, I will not perform the obligatory
My kids have walked in on me in this posture in a closed room. So far no one has said anything. If they bring it up, I will tell them it blows my mind how quickly I am moved from the good news of God’s love to an anxious spirit. I’ll tell them how I’m learning to pay attention to my feelings and get back on track by praying “I will trust in your unfailing love.”
If anyone is still in the room by then, I will conclude by saying I’ve been surprised to find God’s commands are not burdens but doorways to life.
back to top74 Comments to “Doorways to life”
Andree,
Your conviction to pause more often during the day for prayer is a good thing. I agree.
However, your comparison of Christian and Muslim prayer practices falls short. They are not even in the same ball park. A frequent comment by Muslim converts to Christianity is that the Muslim practice is akin to the meaningless spinning of prayer wheels. The recitation of rote prayers in Arabic is viewed as the highest and most encouraged form of prayer. Yet, it is a language which few understand and the process then becomes a mindless ritual—merely filling a square with the appearance of righteousness.
I know that you recognize this by the comments of your third paragraph. However, the one sentence statement of your first paragraph sets the tone for the entire article and I think that is a mistake. In regard to prayer, there is no way that, “…the Muslims have the right idea.”
Report comment to moderator
“I think the Muslims have the right idea.”
Except for that pesky, “kill all the infidels”, thing and the fact that all of that praying doesn’t seem to make much difference in the “kill all the infidels” mentality.
Andree, I think you could have used a number of Christian examples from the monastic period to accomplish the same thing.
There is nothing “redemptive” about being a Muslim.
Report comment to moderator
Andrée
I’m rather surprised that you would compare praying to ALMIGHTY GOD of the Bible to Allah whom the Muslims pray to using the WAY they pray as some sort of special position to be in while praying.
What on earth possesses you to emulate the Muslims in any sort of worship?
GOD hears us no matter what position we are in.
Report comment to moderator
Your thoughts on prayer are much appreciated. I find that my walks to and from school are some of the best times to talk to God, and it takes my thoughts off myself and puts them on Him.
I will admit that your comparison to the Muslim faith is a little strong, but I think I see your point.
I suppose the same comparison could be made with any similar practice of rote prayer. Thanks be to God that our prayers are heard…and answered!
Report comment to moderator
Yes, God hears us no matter what position we are in. I don’t think Andree suggested otherwise. It is what the prostrate position does for her own attitude that makes the difference. And that attitude affects how she prays.
I can pray sitting, kneeling, lying prostrate, standing up, walking, even biking. But I pray differently depending on what my body is doing. Prayer consists of different kinds of talking to God – usually classified as adoration, thanksgiving, confession, and petition (which may be divided into supplication for oneself and intercession for others). Certain bodily postures may be more conducive to one kind of prayer than another.
Regarding Michael Martin’s comment about Muslim converts, I don’t doubt that that is true. But I also think that many Muslims do find their prayer a meaningful practice, from what I have read. I’m not saying this to say that makes it equivalent to Christian prayer – just that what converts from one religion to another say about their former religion is not necessarily a good indication of how those who have not converted see it. People who find meaning and satisfaction in their religion are less likely to convert (from a purely human perspective – obviously God can work in anyone’s heart).
Report comment to moderator
#2 Metanoia,
I am hoping AS meant Mormons instead of Muslims and it was just a typo. I like my head attached instead of being chopped off for sport.
Report comment to moderator
I agree with Andree in principle, though not in practice. I think what she was going for is that the idea of “praying ceaselessly” and with zeal is a good thing when done properly, however using Islam as an example creates problems of comparison.
I like Metanoia’s example of Christian monastacism.
Still, I appreciate the article and enjoy how Andree’s posts are almost always thought provoking.
Report comment to moderator
Yoshiyahu
YOU WRITE:…. “I like Metanoia’s example of Christian monastacism.”
Using “Monasticism” to Believers really isn’t applicable. The monastic period was characteristic of nuns and monks. We as Christian Believers are not part of the RCC, which has embraced this lifestyle for their monks and nuns for centuries.
“Monasticism” is characterized by a religious life by poverty, usually under a common community such as a monastery, with monks or nuns.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria,
Well, that’s what I was saying, or at least, trying to. What I meant by “Christian Monastacism” was Christian monks (or nuns) who prayed with that kind of devotion, zeal, and fervor. I didn’t mean to imply that Christians need to revert to monastacism, but that Christian Monastacism would have been a good perspective and/or worldview to borrow ideas from.
I would submit that the early church was very communal, though not as withdrawn or reclusive as the monks of ages past.
Report comment to moderator
Why is it more desirable to draw attention unto the Muslims than to God’s own words about these same issues?
Report comment to moderator
REG, I agree with you, it’s very strange!
Report comment to moderator
Oh, good grief! Have so many of you deliberately missed the point here? Andree noted that Muslims take time throughout the day to stop what they are doing to pray. Then she noted that taking time throughout the day to stop what she is doing, just as the Muslims take time out to pray, may not be a bad idea for the Christian.
Nowhere did she imply any similarities between Christianity and Islam. Nowhere did she imply that she was praying to Allah or anything else. And praying in a prostrate position is not a strictly Muslim practice. Daniel took time out to pray throughout the day as well.
If she had just written that she was doing this in her personal prayer time without any mention of what the Muslims do, would everyone be so quick to jump all over it?
Report comment to moderator
klasko
YOU WRITE:….
“Oh, good grief! Have so many of you deliberately missed the point here?”
No point missed,…… we simply disagree, maybe it’s you who have missed the point, . . . . No “Oh, good grief” to it!
there are other points!
Report comment to moderator
Psalm 141
mentions the wicked in an evening prayer for sanctification and protection
Jehovah, I have called upon Thee, make haste unto me: Give ear unto my voice, when I call unto thee.
Let my prayer be set forth as incense before thee, the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.
Set a watch before my mouth, keep the door of my lips.
Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practice the deeds of wickedness with men that work iniquity. and let me not eat of their dainties.
Let the righteous smite me, it shall be a kindness, and let him reprove me, it shall be as oil on the head. Let not my head refuse it.
For even in their wickedness shall my prayer continue.
Their judges are thrown down by the sides of the rock, and they shall hear my words, for they are sweet.
As when one ploweth and cleaveth the earth, our bones are scattered at the mouth of Sheol.
For mine eyes are unto thee, O Jehovah the Lord,
In thee do I take refuge, leave not my soul destitute.
Keep me from the snare which they have laid for me, and from the gins of the workers of iniquity.
Let the wicked fall into their own nets, whilst that I withal escape.
Report comment to moderator
The title on this one is telling.
DoorwayS (plural) to Life.
I remember reading about a narrow gate (singular) and few there be that find it.
“I am the way, the truth, and the life…” if I didn’t know better, I would guess that those were in the singular as well
Report comment to moderator
Reg: Andree’s final sentence makes it clear that the doorways (plural) to life are God’s commands (plural), not paths to salvation.
You and Victoria are really way past anything Andree even hinted at in your criticisms and sounding hysterical. Klasko is right in #12.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria @ #8
You give an accurate definition of monasticism, and note that the Roman Catholic Church has had this as part of their practices for centuries.
However, I just want to point out the fact that saying that Christians can benefit from monastic practices is a true statement. Since, in fact, we Roman Catholics are Christians and Believers, just as much as you.
Report comment to moderator
Thomas – 17
For the most part, I don’t agree that Believers can benefit from the RCC or their monastic practices. We don’t forbid men who are called of GOD to become pastor’s not to marry, nor women who desire to serve the LORD, being called into HIS service, such as missionaries to live a life in a monastery, or being set aside so to speak. Those who are called of GOD have the freedom to marry, to have children to dress as others do.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria – But they ARE Christians and Balievers, are they not?
Report comment to moderator
Believers – typo.
Report comment to moderator
Klasko
The RCC has their own beliefs which don’t line up with Scripture, they are built on many ‘traditions’ which are not Scriptural.
Report comment to moderator
RCC–21
And we protestants, have followed the RCC’s footstets with plenty of our own priorities, which is why it is more attractive to draw attention unto the Muslims, in this case, than to the actual words of God on the same issues. Problem with this approach is that only God’s words give and sustain life.
Report comment to moderator
So then your answer is no? Roman Catholocs are neither Christians nor Believers? Just want to be clear about where you stand.
Report comment to moderator
REG,
Evangelicals don’t follow the RCC. Maybe your church does, but mine certainly doesn’t.
Report comment to moderator
Klasko,
I didn’t give a definitive answer, ……
I believe in praying directly to GOD through Jesus Christ, there is no other answer. Christ said:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:16
Report comment to moderator
Yes or No? You’re avoiding the question.
Report comment to moderator
Klasko
Why don’t you give your views?
Report comment to moderator
They don’t believe in the same Jesus we believe in? Or the same Triune God?
You didn’t give a definitive amswer, but you’re trying to imply that they aren’t. I just want to know exactly what you believe on the subject. Either you believe that they are or you believe that they aren’t. Be honest and quit hedging.
Report comment to moderator
You first.
Report comment to moderator
Crickets. Just what I expected.
Report comment to moderator
Klasko
I don’t play the courtroom game, or a militarized version of demands as you did in post 26 “Yes or No?”
You can either have a civilized discussion or drop it, I won’t play those games.
Report comment to moderator
Ok Victoria. I understand. You don’t want to admit to everyone on WMB that you don’t think Roman Catholics are Christians or Believers, but in your posts you walk all the way to the edge without jumping off and then you cry foul when someone calls you on it. Your posts pretty much speak for themselves. I was wondering if you’d actually admit it. You avoid giving an answer and that in itself is an answer.
And since you asked me my views (which I’m sure you’ll pick apart), I don’t think you can throw the baby out with the bathwater. I believe that many Roman Catholics are Christians and Believers. I also believe that there are many Roman Catholics who are not, but I am not the Holy Spirit who can see into men’s hearts and know who’s who.
Report comment to moderator
Klasko,
The old “I don’t think you can throw the baby out with the bathwater” refrain doesn’t work when one is speaking about something more important than anything else, and that would be Salvation. A ‘trite’ phrase when making a point about Everlasting Life.
People of all religious sections make known their doctrine, if it doesn’t line up with the Word of God there is no truth in it.
Report comment to moderator
ok, I’ll take out the trite phrase.
I believe that many Roman Catholics are Christians and Believers. I also believe that there are many Roman Catholics who are not, but I am not the Holy Spirit who can see into men’s hearts and know who’s who.
Report comment to moderator
cKlasko
GOD didn’t leave us without the ability to understand doctrine which doesn’t line up with Scripture. Paul told those about him to ‘rebuke’ those who were not sound in doctrine, he also made it clear that they should not listen to “fables” which are nothing more than ‘traditions’ which are not in the Word of God.
When someone comes to me with a doctrine which is not of the Bible, I KNOW that its not of GOD, nor is the Holy Spirit part of it, there is NO GUESS WORK HERE. This is where many strong Believers make their mistake with doctrine that will not lead to Eternal Life.
Sometimes its awkward to talk to close friends, and those we care about when they ask questions about doctrine, …. we know that we don’t agree, but never the less we must point to TRUTH, no matter how uncomfortable that makes us. There is only ONE way to GOD.
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
quick
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they <heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
2 Timothy 4
Report comment to moderator
Again, as I expected, when I offered the courtesy of an answer to the question that Victoria would not answer herself, and she used the occasion to pick apart my answer, thus shifting the focus to me and my answer and removing herself from the uncomfortable hotseat. And then quotes Scripture at me to support her unstated belief that Roman Catholics are not Believers and not Christians.
Is this your idea of a civilized discussion, Victoria?
Report comment to moderator
Klasko
Posting Scripture which is relevant to a discussion of the RCC is more than important.
The RCC derives much of what they believe FROM ‘tradition’ which is another source other than the Bible, therefore it cannot be counted as doctrine from the Word of God.
Report comment to moderator
Whatever, Victoria. We have nothing more to say to each other on this thread.
Report comment to moderator
Klasko:
A lot of Christians hold to the belief that the early church fell into apostasy sometime in the 4th century and didn’t recover until the Reformation.
In their minds one couldn’t be a Catholic and a Christian at the same time. True Christians came about during the Reformation and the Babylonian whore is doomed to the judgment of God.
It is incompatible for them to believe that outside of Protestantism there are any Christians within the Catholic or Orthodox church. Period. End of subject.
At this point perhaps a discussion of what one considers a “tradition” would be in order. It is amazing how many “traditions” Catholics are accused of substituting for scriptural practices while other “traditions” within the Protestant church can be followed without scrutiny and with impunity.
Report comment to moderator
“The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” Pope Pius IX, in Ubi Primum (On the Immaculate Conception), Encyclical promulgated on February 2, 1849, #5.
Report comment to moderator
Pope Leo XIII, in Iucunda Semper Expectatione (On The Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 8, 1894, #8.
NOTE: We are not told to pray to Mary anywhere in the Word of GOD. Jesus told us there was only ONE WAY and that was through HIM, not his mother Mary, but through HIM, the Son of GOD.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:16
Report comment to moderator
**sigh** I understand all that Metanoia.
I just think that if we are going to converse honestly, all cards should be on the table. One ought to have the courage of his or her convictions and not dance around the subject when pressed.
I daresay, we may have some Catholic friends and lurkers on this site.
I agree that maybe sometime we should have a thread about traditions within all of Christendom and their origins. Inasmuch as I am a Christian who happens to attend an LCMS church, I am fond of reminding my Lutheran brethren from time to time as needed that Martin Luther was a Catholic priest out to reform the Catholic church, not start his own denomination.
I think also that such a discussion, with some of those who post here would become just what my discussion with Victoria became today.
But it just might separate some wheat from some chaff, eh?
Report comment to moderator
Wait for it: She’ll get in the last word yet, Meta.
Report comment to moderator
Wait for it: She’ll get in the last word yet, Meta.
And it’ll be in boldfaced and randomly punctuated with unneeded quotation marks.
Report comment to moderator
Why worry about the “last word” why not concern yourself with what a religious group believes? Having the “last word” isn’t important, what is important is TRUTH!
Report comment to moderator
I’m one of those Catholic “friends and lurkers.”
Report comment to moderator
Klasko,
YOU were the one who jumped all over the questioning in post 19.
Now that you can’t handle the answers which are quotes from beliefs of the RCC you are going to whine?
Report comment to moderator
Thomas – 46
Yes, you made that clear in post 17.
Report comment to moderator
Stick a fork in me. I’m done talking to Victoria on this topic.
Report comment to moderator
Thanks for being here, Thomas.
When visiting an Arab country in the past, I, too, was struck by the value of the “call to prayer” and wondered about our lack of it. I suppose the church bells tolling the hour in days gone by were a “call” to believers. The book on prayer I am currently reading (Yancy) mentions the authorsetting the alarm on his watch for times during the day until he realized he was annoying those around. We need reminders.
And the idea of prostrating myself before the Lord is foreign to me though Biblical.
Report comment to moderator
I have all the patience in the world for the unbeliever. I have very little for the Pharisee. For some reason I was reminded of that while reading this thread.
I have been a subscriber to World for many years now. I know one of the founders as he attended our church. I have become increasingly attached to the publication—originally through my knowing this person and trying to support a new publication—over the many years I have subscribed. When a new online version started, I was excited for the publication and my friend.
A couple years ago I started coming to this forum. Posting seemed daft as there was no interaction and no one would engage in the posts. I was a late-comer to the online forum and not “in the group”. I am completely cognizant of the possibility that what I post isn’t worthy of comment. I’ve read my own stuff so I know this to be true. After addressing people directly there was still no interaction. I think I chalked this up to me being bereft of cogent arguments and not really welcome for some reason that I, with all humility, probably deserved.
I have stopped by two years later and I am very pleased to say that nothing has changed. The piety and high-handed arguments, the secular pragmatism and flaming of and between believers and the odd debasing of authors in here who don’t sate the smallest of theological meat. As a Christian, Calvinist, reformed sinner in God’s eyes, I must say that the bravado and elitism has rendered this blog as an ideological equivalent of American Idol. Some of you pick the good songs and sing them well while others pick fights with the judge. In this case, it isn’t Simon.
In all cases, the “show” takes a lot of our time and I ask myself again, is this at all redemptive? I fear what I will find in another two years time. But then again, who am I to rebuke? After all, I was the one who wanted a conquering King who would vanquish my enemies, deliver eternal peace and lead me to a promised land; what I got was a King who came, served, suffered and died. The irony is not lost on me by the way.
Report comment to moderator
Hi Grey Archer,
Welcome back! Make your comments, don’t expect immediate responses (sometimes people don’t say anything because they agree with what you say, other times they probably think you are a banana cake, at least so it seems they think of me), but stick with us, we will start commenting, takes time. We could use your good influence to help us get back on track.
Report comment to moderator
Why don’t people call themselves Johnist’s, Matthewist’s, Markists, Peterist’s Paulist’s Jamesist’s, but think nothing of calling themselves Calvinist’s.
What makes Calvin more special than the Apostles, whom Jesus chose, or Paul who was the great pastor/teacher?
All other Believers call themselves Christians, Believers, or Born Again Christians.
I notice that many so called ‘Calvinists’ NEVER refer to themselves as Born Again Christians. Very strange.
In Revelation we see that the twelve names of the Apostles in the foundation. No mention of Calvin at all.
Report comment to moderator
Those who belong to churches which teach the 5 points of TULIP almost always refer to themselves as “I’m a Calvinist” –
Report comment to moderator
Victoria,
For what it’s worth, I have known a fair number of Lutherans and Wesleyans, though they considered themselves Christians first and foremost.
Some people don’t use the term “born again Christian” because it’s redundant – all Christians have been born again. If you ask me, “Are you born again?” I will say yes, but I don’t generally refer to myself as “a born-again Christian.” (I don’t consider myself as a Calvinist either. In terms of TULIP I’d probably be 3 or 4 points, like most Evangelicals I know.)
Report comment to moderator
Pauline
Thanks for your response.
It really isn’t redundant to call oneself a Born Again Christian. Many who do not know what it means to be a Christian call themselves a ‘Christian’, but consider Born Again Christians to be very different. Therefore identifying oneself as Born Again has significance.
I have met many people who claim to be Christians, but haven’t a clue as to what it means.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria,
I agree on the need to explain the terms Christian and born again for people. But in my experience, the people who would hear me identify myself as a “Christian” and think of a meaning different from what I mean, would also hear the term “born again Christian” and think of a meaning different from what I mean – generally that it refers to Southern Baptists and similar denominations. So then I would have two misconceptions to clear up instead of just one.
Perhaps in your part of the country it’s different.
Report comment to moderator
Pauline
Thanks for your input.
YOU WRITE:….. ” But in my experience, the people who would hear me identify myself as a “Christian” and think of a meaning different from what I mean, would also hear the term “born again Christian” and think of a meaning different from what I mean - generally that it refers to Southern Baptists and similar denominations. So then I would have two misconceptions to clear up instead of just one.”
I bolded your first remark which I want to comment on:…. EXACTLY, that’s what happens, they really don’t know what it means, you are right.
What I don’t agree with is your second comment which is “Southern Baptists” – I nor many like me, are connected with this group, although I find nothing wrong with being a Southern Baptist. Why would anyone believe being “Born Again” is connected to Southern Baptist. Jesus said this, HE wasn’t Baptist HE was GOD the SON. When Jesus said “You must be Born Again” he wasn’t making mention of a denomination.
Too many Believers are identifying with a person such as Calvin (you said you weren’t a 5 point Calvinist) rather than CHRIST, who is GOD the SON. We must never lose sight of our Redeemer, HE is none other than our LORD and Savior GOD the SON. Everything we believe is wrapped up in the person of JESUS CHRIST, none other can save us, none other will take our sins away. We are Believers in the risen Christ, we are Born Again with a new nature.
Report comment to moderator
Grey Archer – 51 “I have all the patience in the world for the unbeliever. I have very little for the Pharisee.”
Grey Archer, I was very impressed with your post initially, but as I started reading it, I thought I was listening to one of those whom you have so little patience for…the Pharisse that is. It is one thing to live among the sinners, yet another to stand in the temple and thank God you are not one of them. Rather than standing on the hillside and occassionally slinging an arrow into the fray, why not join us? We are not perfect, as you so clearly pointed out, and if you have some “theological meat” you can share, we’d like to taste it. Why not skip the self-deprecation and tell us what’s really on your mind?
Report comment to moderator
53-”
Why don’t people call themselves Johnist’s, Matthewist’s, Markists, Peterist’s Paulist’s Jamesist’s, but think nothing of calling themselves Calvinist’s.
What makes Calvin more special than the Apostles, whom Jesus chose, or Paul who was the great pastor/teacher?
All other Believers call themselves Christians, Believers, or Born Again Christians.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:3
I notice that many so called ‘Calvinists’ NEVER refer to themselves as Born Again Christians. Very strange.
In Revelation we see that the twelve names of the Apostles in the foundation. No mention of Calvin at all.
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:14″
on name calling and identity–good observation, Victoria!! That is why I prefer to use the vocabulary from the Psalms. IT seems the most consistent and true to me. In fact, I read the Psalms to find out what is happening in the world, and when I read the world’s version of the news, it all makes sense.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria:
Your posts seem a bit more tempered the past couple of days than in the past. I don’t know if this is a conscious effort, but it makes your comments easier to read and your objections not so objectionable.
It is obvious to me that you have great command of Bible content. If I recall, you gave credit to your father for instilling that in you.
I have found that Christians speak out of the experiences and exposures that they have been nurtured in. I guess that is why Baptists sound so Baptisty and Lutherans sound so Lutherany
Would you be willing to share what writers have infuenced you most in your nurture? It would give some of us a point of reference. I know that you have said it many times that it is the Bible that has influenced you, but I don’t think it would be out of the question to say that even ones Bible reading and understanding has been shaped by nurture.
I hope I am not opening a can of worms, but I’d like to understand where you are coming from a bit better.
Report comment to moderator
#58
Victoria,
As I said, it may depend on what part of the country one is from. I grew up in New England, and had never heard the term “born again” until the year Jimmy Carter was running for president. I was only a teenager (and had just been born again myself that summer), but I would guess that for many adults it was an equally unfamiliar term. Outside the church I started attending then (an independent Baptist church where pastors and evangelists always spoke with a Southern accent), and discussions about the upcoming election, the term simply wasn’t used.
Since then I have lived in PA, NJ, OH, MI, IL, and now IA (gradually moving toward Nebraska where my husband grew up, it seems). Within some churches the term is used occasionally, but less so in churches whose pastors did not go to seminary in the South. In other churches, such as conservative Presbyterian churches that my husband pastored, the term is understood as referring to a conversion experience but not used as an identifying label. People who have come to faith as a child often associate the term with more dramatic conversion experiences. Not that theirs are any less valid, and they know it – it’s just how they’re used to hearing the term used. And many of them associate it particularly with Baptists from the South (whether Southern Baptists or not), since those are the people who seem to use the term most often.
It’s a perfectly good term – Biblical of course. But I simply don’t find it useful as a way of identifying myself to non-Christians. And I don’t feel a need to identify myself to other Christians, except to say I’m a Christian, or a believer. If they’re concerned that I may not be born again, they can ask, and I’ll be happy to tell what God has done in my life.
Report comment to moderator
Grey Archer – Don’t take it personally if you are not responded to; happens to me a lot, too.
You never know when someone will read what you have to offer & be blessed or challenged by it, but won’t take the time to respond.
What tends to frustrate me a bit is when I ask a question regarding someone’s comment but never get an answer. I think sometimes people toss off a quick comment, but then don’t go back to check that thread.
Report comment to moderator
REG – 60
I love the Psalms too, they are a source of comfort and often shine light on something in my life. I have found GOD speaking to me through the Psalms many times, its been an amazing experience as HE directs my path and shows me the answer, not to mention the TOUCH which only HE can give in time of sorrow.
GOD bless you Reg
Report comment to moderator
Metanoia – 61
Both my parents were influential in teaching me the Word of GOD. They were both scholars, so I was very blessed to sit under their guidance. However after I left home, it wasn’t until I was 31 that I started to study the prophecies in the Bible as a serious project, finding out as much as I could about the ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’ – it was at this time I realized there wasn’t anything else in my life within books that would quench my thirst for knowledge, (I’m only talking about the Word of God, not what one studies at University) except the Word of GOD.
I have read many books, we have a large library, including my father’s books, some very rare. To give you a definitive answer as to what books shaped my beliefs, I couldn’t single them out because it always comes back to the Word of GOD. My studies of WW2 and the Holocaust had a great impact on my life. I read many, many books on this subject, and one day I had just purchased yet another book, read a few pages, set it down, never to read another book on the subject. My heart was broken for what had happened. I then interviewed many older people who had survived the camps, it left a definite mark on my life…so you see it wasn’t just books, it was a thirst for knowledge ‘first hand’ as to what happened back in that era during WW2.
I have read most of what Francis Schaeffer and Alexander Solzhenitsyn have written, these are two authors whom I find very interesting. Solzhenitsyn, is one person who I would like to meet. I read NO fiction, it’s never interested me. I read hours of news from around the world and here in the US, from many sources.
Report comment to moderator
Thanks Victoria:
Schaeffer and Solzhenitsyn are fascinating and interesting to me.
Your parent’s influence and investment in your life is a testimony that I would love for more parents to have. After serving as a pastor for as long as I did, I can tell you that the most level headed kids were the ones whose parents took their biblical role seriously.
Thanks again for your response.
Report comment to moderator
Pauline – 62
YOU WRITE:….. “Within some churches the term is used occasionally, but less so in churches whose pastors did not go to seminary in the South. In other churches, such as conservative Presbyterian churches that my husband pastored, the term is understood as referring to a conversion experience but not used as an identifying label.”
I respect your opinion but I don’t find what you say to be true regarding ones Seminary and where it was located, regarding the term “Born Again Christian”-
YOU WRITE:….. “People who have come to faith as a child often associate the term with more dramatic conversion experiences. Not that theirs are any less valid, and they know it – it’s just how they’re used to hearing the term used. And many of them associate it particularly with Baptists from the South (whether Southern Baptists or not), since those are the people who seem to use the term most often.”
I don’t understand the association to be more with a so called “dramatic conversion experience” than any other. When one comes to know the LORD Jesus Christ it is dramatic, it’s a life changing experience, the new Believer now has a ‘new nature’ which is very dramatic if they were sincere. What would be a “dramatic conversion experience” in your view?
Many pastor’s use the term “Born Again Believer” other than Baptists, actually I’ve never heard anyone identify it with Baptists other than you. What I have noticed on this blog, very few speak of their identity as a “Born Again Believer” … I found that strange.
Report comment to moderator
Nice post, Grey Archer. And I’m not just saying that.
Note that the half-life of a discussion thread is about 9 hours. Rapid decay for a discussion begins at about 5-6pm Eastern time. If you post a comment after that time, there’s hardly anyone still reading or commenting.
The next morning, when new discussion threads are freshly baked in the WMB oven, few participants actually go back to check the old discussions. Day-old bagels aren’t very popular.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria, I’m just now entering this conversation like a day-old bagel, and so I realize your various comments weren’t directed to me. However, there’s a lot of wisdom in Pauline’s and Meta’s comments about language differences between received traditions.
I know, I know, all of us evangelicals (of various evangelical sub-streams) think we’re 100% plugged in to the Apostolic Faith (and so do the RCCs, and so do the EOs) but the mere fact that we stumble over each other’s word choices (e.g., nailing down what “born again” means) is evidence that we have different associations that affect how we hear the same word. (And here I’m not talking about fundamentals like justification by grace through faith in Christ alone, but stuff like habits of speech)
In my Presbyterian (PCA) church, we speak often of the new birth – and believe it is absolutely essential! – yet we would not describe all experiences of the new birth as ‘dramatic.’ The experience of children born to and raised by believing parents, for instance, will often be characterized by a growing appreciation for the majesty and supremacy of God, the need for a savior, and a love for Jesus Christ. Yet it might not happen all at once, and it might not be, in the young person’s words, ‘dramatic,’ but gradual yet glorious. There may be a point of crisis that the believer can point to (”God brought me to my knees at age 16…”, for instance, or your own story of renewal and fervent spiritual interest at age 31) but we should be careful what expectations we place on others. Only Moses saw a burning bush, after all.
Instead, I think we can agree that even more important than when and how a person came to Christ is whether he is now trusting in and abiding in Christ, and for that we examine the fruit, not the conversion story. Does that make sense?
Report comment to moderator
RR – 69
YOU WRITE:….. “I know, I know, all of us evangelicals (of various evangelical sub-streams) think we’re 100% plugged in to the Apostolic Faith (and so do the RCCs, and so do the EOs) but the mere fact that we stumble over each other’s word choices (e.g., nailing down what “born again” means) is evidence that we have different associations that affect how we hear the same word.”
In John chapter 3 its very clear as to how to inherit the kingdom of GOD. Jesus explained it to Nicodemus, anyone can read this passage of Scripture. What becomes a stumbling block to many, is not wanting to study, not taking the time to read what the Scriptures actually say, therefore they are led away from the Bible only to listen to others for most of their life from the pulpit. That isn’t what we as Believers are to do.
If I gave you the impression that I came to know Christ as my Savior at age 31 that is wrong. I was 7 years old when I became Born Again.
Report comment to moderator
Thank you for the response, Victoria, but I fear you are simply making my point for me.
For you, “became Born Again” appears to mean your recollection, at age 7, of knowledge of, assent to, and trust in the gospel. Yet what the Lord actually says in John 3 is that except (i.e unless, or until) one is born again, one cannot [even] see the Kingdom of God. Apparently the new birth is a prior necessity for our receiving and believing! From the POV of Reformed theology, the new birth (regeneration) is God’s gracious act of opening our sin-blinded eyes and inclining our sin-damaged hearts to the Lord. Like the old birth, it is more of something that happens to us than something we do (e.g., as babes in the womb, we don’t choose the date and manner of our birth). Of course, regeneration must be followed by exercised faith on the part of the regenerated believer; “Behold, I stand at the door and knock, and if any man will open to me…”
And so I believe my point stands. It seems to me that you came to this discussion believing that “born again” means what you have always thought it meant, and that anyone who differs must be avoiding the plain teaching of the Bible. Whether you agree with my Reformed understanding of what’s going on in John 3 or not, I hope you can see that confusion might arise in conversations with other evangelicals, unless or until we can understand where you’re coming from and what you mean by your terms.
And for the record, I did not take your previous comment to mean you came to know Christ as Savior at age 31. I was talking hypothetically about a person in whose life God has been at work for some time. Again, I do not know, but reasonably suspect that you come from a tradition where “being born again” means the day when the gospel makes sense, the heart is warmed, and belief is born; i.e. the moment when the person is saved, and knows it. But not all evangelicals understand the Bible quite that way.
Report comment to moderator
#’s- 52, 59, 63 & 68
Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I appreciate that you took time to not only read my post but to respond. And I said this wasn’t redemptive.
#59- Nitrobob: At the risk of sounding like a Pharisee, I would be remiss to not mention the times I have explained to (patronize) myself that it is a better thing to be like me than them. At the same time it is also I who have longed for the “sweet poison of the false infinite”. If Paul had not claimed it first, I would be standing at the front of the line of sinners. The level, complexity and depth of my sin is only paled by God’s immense grace and unearthly forgiveness.
Your instinct that I may be exhibiting Pharisee-like notions, while insightful of you, is neither shocking nor a revelation to me. I am a hypocrite of the highest order. I am celebrating in the Great Hall over the wafting scent of theological roast-meat and proclaiming the banishment of death…at the work and hands of another? God did all the heavy lifting and yet we jump about chest pounding and hair-pulling over the slightest provocation of an example of a Muslim mans posture while offering penitence. Now that is seeing a Christian in the available light.
No Christian likes being called a Pharisee and when juxtaposed with our displayed behavior, the differences rarely seem…well…different. The arrow’s I let fly from the hill top are intended to expose, engage and promote contemplation. But keep in mind; it is not beyond me to shoot the arrow of rebuke from a hill…it’s called the Bravery of being out of range.
#68-Travis: Thanks for the shelf-life help. I have a web site that has a large forum and it too has its day-old bagels. I appreciate your help an understanding on this issue.
#53-Victoria: I say Calvinist so that you will know that I am a Protestant reformer who is most likely Presbyterian. I could simply say Presbyterian but like many other denominations that have become fractured by living “of” the world, there would be no mistaking my position. Perhaps understanding all the precepts of Calvinism would help in understanding why someone would say that instead of just saying Born Again. Although I like your Paulist; Paul was a magnanimous man and I often say everything you need to know in life can be found in the book of Romans. Being a Paulist would indeed be a compliment.
In the end game, it is not imperative or an obligation upon you that I feel included, engaged or part of the tribe. As a Christian, I am. I just thought I would share with all of you fine folks what it looks like and feels like to be a new person here. After all, it is a mission field in here and this may be the only time some people hear the Gospel; whether sitting or lying prostrate as a Muslim (look, I even honored it by capitalizing the M), Abraham or Paul. Just saying…
Report comment to moderator
#72 – Grey Archer: Good to see that you have returned and I hope you are still following this thread. You know what? No matter how hard we try, we are all Pharisees at some point in time or another. I used to be a Pharisee/legalist of the worst order and though I may be a little wiser, I still lapse into that role on occassion. But, wisdom is not at the heart of the transformation. Rather, it is learning how to truly love the sheep of this world; albeit of the Lord’s pasture or those who have strayed over the hill.
Your initial and follow-in observations are correct. We Christians often turn into the lions we loathe and indiscriminately attack those outside our faith (e.g., the comments regarding Andree’s comparison of her prayer rituals with those of the Muslim faith, while completely missing the real point) or when unsatisfied, turn on our own. My only solace can be found in Luke 9 where Jesus breaks up an argument among the disciples as to who would be the greatest in God’s Kingdom. If, with all their shortcomings and sins, Jesus still felt obliged to leave them in charge upon his resurrection and departure from earth, then maybe there is hope for us all. Yes, we can all claim that first place in the “sinner’s line”, but through God’s redeeming grace we can still serve in redeeming His Creation. The requirement is to remain humble like a child.
Keep firing the arrows…obviously, they are having the desired effect.
Report comment to moderator
Thanks Bob. Very true indeed. The old saying; cheer up, you’re worse than you think you are but God’s grace is bigger than you think it is.
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDonTheWeb.com to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!