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Colson diagnoses church problems
During his speech Tuesday at the 19th Annual National Conference on Preaching, Chuck Colson pinpointed what he believes is the root of problems in today’s Christian church: Christians don’t know what they believe in.
To make his case, he recalled occasions when he asked his friends to explain the trinity or a group of “mature” church elders to explain the church doctrines, and found that they all “fumbled” for answers but could not provide a satisfactory response.
Likewise, during a speaking engagement he asked a group of distinguished Christians that included theologians from respected universities to explain what Christianity is.
Again the Christians could not give a proper answer. One respondent said Christianity is “to love God with all your heart, mind and soul,” in which Colson responded that that was a commandment and not what Christianity is.
“We assume people in the pulpit understand it and people in the churches understand it, but they don’t,” Colson concluded.
What do you think of his diagnosis?
back to top99 Comments to “Colson diagnoses church problems”
He hits the nail on the head. I find that almost everyone, including myself, assumes they know more about Christianity than they actually do. We are constantly and perhaps somewhat unconsciously filling in the gaps of what we do not know with our own ideas of the way we think it should be.
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more questions…
1) what is the meaning of the word KNOW?? It is greek/hellenistic/intellectual or jewish/experiential?
2) what is the meaning and evidence of the word BELIEVE??
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Another question…
who decides that this is a valid test?
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I found myself a little unprepared last night when my son suddenly asked, “Why did they put Jesus on the cross?” I think I could have explained it to an adult but stumbled a bit trying to explain it to a child.
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I’ll take it one step further: They don’t know what they believe and they have never given any thought to WHY they believe it either.
One of the things I taught my children growing up was to know what you believe and why you believe it.
The only acceptable answer to the second question is, “I have examined it for myself in the Word of God, and therefore I know it to be true.”
“That’s how I was raised,” and “So-and-so believes it, so I should believe it” are NOT acceptable answers.
Anyone discipling others should teach them how to feed themselves in the Word.
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Any link?
It does sound like a fair point Colson is making.
KBells, one of my toughest professors in seminary always asked his questions on major exams this way: “Please explain your answer briefly and in a way that a sixth grader would understand…”
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I’ve been asking questions of several of my friends and elders whom I respect for their intelligence and faith, and have been somewhat disappointed with their answers. While much of the fault may be mine for being so deficient in discipline and morals, I think that part of the answer for my disappointment is that our education in the faith is sadly lacking. And this in a church that is known for sound teaching and vigorous discussions of the issues.
And we wonder why young people tend to drift away from the church when confronted with a secular world view…
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Oh, and add to the mix the reality that we age, mature in our beliefs, as well. When I was youn in the faith, I drew some very bright (and VERY Reformed) lines; these days those lines are not so sharp. It’s not because of a lack of faith, but because I know my own weaknesses far better. Faith moves from something like a syllogism to something that permeates my being.
And Reg did ask the right questions in #2.
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Reg asks the right question in both #2 and #3.
It would be great to have a link because with only the blurb we have Colson comes off as one of those annoying Bible teachers who studies a verse for a week and then asks his students casually what they think. The prof has a very specific and minute answer in mind, but the students don’t realize the gravity of his little test in the profs mind. So they answer broadly, off-handedly and the teacher scolds them for not knowing more about such an important verse.
That’s the way it comes across, but I believe better things of Colson.
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My pastor once said you should be able to explain you faith to the guy next to you, in the fifteen minutes before the plane crashes.
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Fifteen minutes before the plane crashes… oy..
And most of us are still trying to figure it out ourselves…
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Sorry guys–the link is now posted.
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What is Christianity?
It means living, not as a loner but as a member of God’s family of believers, by the following convictions:
1. This world, including us, exists by virtue of a Creator who acted creatively on purpose. Thus, we are NOT mere accidents of nature.
2. We are hopeless sinners, enslaved to it and lost from our Creator and unable to find our way back to Him on our own. If you cannot accept this, then go no further in the name of Christianity.
3. God initiated our reconciliation with Him on purpose. Tell of Jesus’ obedient choice to come down to earth in the form of a man and live sinlessly among sinful men and love them only to be rejected and killed. Explain the real meaning of Christmas. Tell how Mary had a little lamb and explain what it meant for that lamb to grow up and die for the sins of others. He paid our debts, delivered us from our guilt and redeemed us from our slavery to sin. Better yet, quote John 3:16.
4. Still better yet, Jesus rose from the dead and He lives forever and is interceeding with God on our behalf (Hebrews 7:23-25). Explain what Easter is really about.
5. Having repented of our sins, we participate with Jesus in His death, burial and resurrection through baptism, which is OUR water grave from which we also rise to a brand new life. God responds with the forgiveness of our sins and with the gift of the Holy Spirit through whom we live as NEW creatures and bear fruit pleasing to God.
Clarifications:
Most people cannot properly define Christianity because they stumble at the point of fully grasping the depth and reality of their sin. Get that straight and the story takes on life for you and is easy to remember and explain to others.
There is no true Christian who has not repented of their sinfulness. There is also no Christian in whom the Holy Spirit does not live. I love the way Peter put it on the birth-day of the early church. He preached, “Repent and be paptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38).
In sum, remember GOD as purposeful Creator, JESUS as redeemer and savior, and the HOLY SPIRIT as our sustaining and sanctifying strength.
And have a few verses in your heart ready to explain your faith.
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It’s hard to be brief in explaining Christianity since God has done so much for us. But I invite all to refine what I have stated above to improve our grasp of Christianity and our ability to share it.
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I believe most of the men in my SS class, and especially the classes I’ve taught, could explain Christianity if given the time to bring their thoughts together. The problem, as KLasko points out. Is the WHY they believe what they believe.
In the book of Genesis, we were studying in SS about Jacob and Laban. One of the guys said Jacob had a relationship with God therough the Lord Jesus Christ. This after I had just commented that I wouldn’t have bought a used car from either of them. I was glad I wasn’t teaching. You can’t correct a statement like that, you pass it by.
Every person should be able to explain WHY he believes what he believes. Not because his mother tought him.
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“The Christian radio commentator and author noted that no one even responded as he expected – that Christianity was a religion or a relationship with God. According to Colson, Christianity is the Word and he recited John 1: ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.’”–Colson from the link
Apparently, even Colson can’t give a concise, clear answer.
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Corrie Ten Boom did much work with the mentally challenged children in her area. She thought everyone should learn the gospel so well that they could explain it to a child and especially to one of these who were mentally challenged. The gospel has to be simplified to do so, but when we simplify things down to the very nuggets of truth, we generally have to think it through.
Colson has hit on the truth that has nagged at my husband in every church we have been in. Most churches just don’t teach well. Many Sunday School programs were mostly singing or crafts and very little meat. The bible is taken piecemeal and children hear a lot about a few bible characters and little else. Most churches are very resistent to any change, however.
We all like pat answers, but they are very unhelpful. It is difficult to move people beyond them, however. I remember one junior/senior high class that was very upset when I challenged them to tell me what they would say to someone who wanted to know why they are christians. When I challenged their pat answers they just grew defensive. That is what we tend to do. The reality is that other people don’t have to and will not accept pat answers.
When we don’t know the answer we need to say so. None of us are asked to know it all and none of us will. My husband was challenged by an atheist when he was in the military many years ago. This person rightly pointed out that my husband didn’t really understand what he was talking about when he was trying to get this man to believe in God. It drove my husband to his bible and to prayer. That is what Colson’s challenge should do.
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Any attempt to define Christianity in brief is susceptible to misunderstanding. The classic creeds of the church are historical attempts to elucidate the simpler definitions. Simple and clear definitions are important and necessary (and corrective when specualtion runs wild) but are just the beginning.
Chas:
Jesus identified Himself in John 1:51 as the ladder (or staircase) in Jacob’s dream between heaven and earth on which the angels descended and ascended (note the reference to Nathaniel as an Israeli without guile in v. 47). Jacob was indeed a conniver, but he did have a relationship with the preexistent Christ (the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) despite his imperfections. There was no need to correct or pass by the statement.
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“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sina for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Co 5:17-21 (NIV)
Christianity: Being reconciled to God and living like it’s true.
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Metanoia,
I like your summary, but I would add two words to it.
Being reconciled to God in Christ and living like it’s true.
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Pauline: I’ll buy that. I think the problem we have is not that the definition is difficult but rather that we complicate the message.
Commandment 1: Love the Lord you God with all you heart, strength, soul and mind,
Commandment 2: Love your neighbor as yourself.
Both can only be fulfilled if we’ve been born again (reconciled) unto God through Christ.
The 2 Corinthians passage pretty much says it for me.
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Christianity: Drinking the cup of salvation in remembrance of Jesus drinking the cup of God’s wrath. ref. Psalm 116
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Of course we understand what Christianity is: It is allowing the Christ-spirit who is in all of us to blossom.
OK, just joking.
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I’ve knocked on a few doors using the EE outline. The basic idea:
Heaven (eternal life) is a free gift, which cannot be earned or deserved.
Man is a sinner and cannot save himself.
God is merciful (not desiring to punish us) but He is also just (therefore He must punish our sin).
Jesus Christ is the infinite God-Man (fully God and fully human) who came to earth, died on the cross and rose from the grave to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us.
This gift is received by faith. Faith is not merely knowing facts about Jesus, or believing that he can meet our temporary needs (when in danger, sick, etc.). The faith that saves is trusting in Him alone for eternal life.
This little outline isn’t perfect. But as its originator, the late, great D. James Kennedy liked to say, it’s better than whatever you’re not using.
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#21
Metanoia,
I agree with all you said.
I added the two words I did because I grew up in a liberal UCC church that emphasized those same commandments, but saw no need for people to be Christians in order to fulfill them.
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“I think the problem we have is not that the definition is difficult but rather that we complicate the message.”
Welllll….. I’m not so sure that’s true. I think the postmodern situation we find ourselves in makes it difficult to simplify the message because we have to explain a lot of what the “Good News” is NOT.
We’re also fighting an uphill battle because we’ve abandoned the proper Christian perspective that Jesus is THE TRUTH, for a counterfeit notion that “The Truth” is whatever corresponds to reality. So rather than realizing that reality is a creation, we depend upon it, the creation, to define truth for us.
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RR:
I find that the biggest problem with that is that heaven is the wrong place to start (biblically). We start with God’s holiness, not “don’t you want to go to heaven?” (I’ve seen FAR too many presentations to children that start by showing how wonderful heaven is, and then asking, “Don’t you want to go there someday?” Well, of course–but the desire to go to heaven as a place is completely disconnected from a desire to be with God, from a sense of God’s holiness, and from repentance.)
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Creation. Fall. Redemption.
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Creation. Fall. Redemption. Believing and bearing fruit.
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Good point Cheryl.
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Post 23
I think Outdeep is not as far off a one might think at first glance. Let’s face that as creeds, dogma and doctrine are interpretations. One could interpret OutDeep’s joking remark thusly: Yes, in fact to die to oneself and accept the atonement of Christ and be guided by the Holy Spirit so that Christ blooms within. I believe this would be a wholly in keeping with orthodox Christianity interpretation.
There are many ways to express faith. Creed, dogma and doctrine are the least enlightening of those. The person Colson seems to have criticized who said Love God, Love your brother (or words to that effect) actually did sum it up in a nutshell — and was paraphrasing someone who ought to know. A guy from Galilee, to be precise.
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Christianity is a large cult composed of many sects which believe very different things. No wonder practitioners are uncertain about the singular meaning of Christianity – There isn’t one!
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And you’re certain of that because? You’ve done exhaustive research on the Bible?
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#33 – Doesn’t take “exhaustive” research on the Bible. A moderate amount will do; as will a little church history. The “Christianity” of the Baptist church is different from the “Christianity” of the Church of Christ, for example – I remember my Church of Christ uncle pastor’s sermon against the Baptist idea of free grace and eternal salvation. And these are pretty closely aligned versions of Christianity!
All the following are currently identified as “Christian” –
Eastern Orthodoxy (Greek, Russian, Serb, Latvian, etc.), Roman Catholicism, Episcopal, Congregational, Baptist, Brethren, Church of Christ (both with and without instruments), Presbyterian, Lutheran, Armenian Orthodox, “non-denominational”, Church of God, Foursquare Gospel, Calvary Chapel, Methodist, Disciples of Christ, Nazarene, etc., etc., ……………
These all have different theological traditions and emphases; most consider themselves to be “true” versions, but have no real justification for making that claim above the others. American Christians tend to church hop across these lines; to do this, they must have a facile set of beliefs.
This list makes no mention of extinct sects, like gnostic versions of Christianity. It also doesn’t highlight that, even within these sects, there are disparate theological opinions.
This diversity of opinion is probably helped by the fact that the Bible is also internally inconsistent on its version of Christianity, having been written by different authors with different emphases. The Christianity of Paul is frankly not the Christianity of James, believe what you will!
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And yet, the myth of “one, true, ideal Christianity” persists!
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And that proves that Christianity doesn’t have a singular meaning how?
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The real problem appears not to be that Christians don’t know what they believe, but that they don’t believe what Colson (or some other self-proclaimed infallible interpreter) wants them to believe.
Well at least that’s a consistent characteristic of Christianity through the ages.
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#36 – MIM – the presence of multiple meanings shows there is no one single accepted meaning.
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p.s. The posts on this thread prove my point!
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,B>Spinoza: What makes all those expressions identifiable as “Christian” is not what they differ on, but on what they hold in common.
See my post 19: Being reconciled to God in/through Christ and living like it’s true.
I don’t know of any of those denominations you mentioned that don’t agree with the above truth.
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#40 – perhaps they would all agree to your creed-like statement, but they would certainly interpret it in very different and contradictory ways.
How is one “reconciled” for example?
How does one live out the reconciliation?
I no longer consider myself a Christian, but I think even I could find an acceptable interpretation of your statement! Or as the song goes, “Jesus is just alright with me.”
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p.s. to 41 Colson would probably consider your #19 proposition to be too vague for him to accept as a defining statement.
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Spinoza wrote: “All the following are currently identified as “Christian” – Eastern Orthodoxy (Greek, Russian, Serb, Latvian, etc.), Roman Catholicism, Episcopal, Congregational, Baptist, Brethren, Church of Christ (both with and without instruments), Presbyterian, Lutheran, Armenian Orthodox, “non-denominational”, Church of God, Foursquare Gospel, Calvary Chapel, Methodist, Disciples of Christ, Nazarene, etc.,”
Spinoza, apparently you are not seeing the forest for the trees.
All of the following are identified as baseball teams: The LA Dodgers, the Detroit Tigers, the Pee Wee Pip-Squeaks, the Minnesota Twins, the Sixth Street whipper-snappers, the USC Trojans, the Tokyo Whatevers, and so on.
But we all can still see through the different labels, styles, distortions, imperfections, positions and goals, to what we all can call baseball. And the conversation over the differences can go on from there.
The problem today is that there are a lot of people taking the field of Christianity who don’t realize who they play for or how to get home. Many are ust sitting on the fense and and MOST of them still think they are the umpires!!!
Exceptions aboud, but Colson is (as usual) correct.
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The LA Lakers can go out and dribble all over a baseball field (or even a court) and call it baseball, but we know better.
Some cults and sects also try to do this in the name of Christianity too.
A common ground of understanding, even in today’s complex world, is both possible and essential. I am thankful for the challenge Colson laid down for us.
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#43/44 — Baseball players in the same league have the same rules and play the same game. Not so for Christianity. And again, Joel, you are just promoting your theology as the “true” meaning with no real justification, all the while admitting there are nominal “Christians” that don’t play by your rules. So yes, you and Colson have a lot in common! And I mean that in a bad way.
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Spin,
Saying:
“…the presence of multiple meanings shows there is no one single accepted meaning.”
is quite different from saying there is no singular meaning of Christianity:
“No wonder practitioners are uncertain about the singular meaning of Christianity – There isn’t one!
Just because there are variations within “held” Christianity, doesn’t mean there is no real core to Christianity.
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Spinoza,
Regarding your uncle’s minister (churches of Christ don’t use the title; “pastor”): I grew up in the churches of Christ and those who were not able to see the common ground of brotherhood with all Baptists were woefully blinded by legalism. They may have meant well, and I loved many of them, but they did more harm than good. Fortunately, this sectarian spirit has been losing ground for a long long time and many ministers like me have no trouble honoring the common ground I have with other Christians–even Baptists (just a playful phrase there).
And some of the victims of that legalism, grew up to be even more legalistic and closed-minded in their stubborn opposition to faith. Legalists cannot see the forest for the trees and it hurts hearts badly.
Also, some rules in baseball do change over time. Also, the American league and the National league have long had different rules for the DH. But it’s all still baseball and we all know it.
This is true for Christianity as well. I don’t see or share your objections.
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Spinoza #41: Make it Man has a point. You would be hard pressed to find a whole lot of difference between how Christians define “reconciliation” and how to live it out. Most of the difference would be semantic and insignificant to the core that Make it Man refers to.
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Reg’s questions in the beginning of this thread raise an interesting subject.
We know that we cannot rely on only our experiences with God to know about Him & tell about Him, but don’t they have a place in this discussion? Such as, after explaining in our own words what the Bible says about salvation, adding, “And this is what God has done in my life…”
Cheryl D. – I agree that we need to emphasize God’s holiness. My question for you – How would you explain “holy” to a child (perhaps school-age)?
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Cheryl in 27: if “heaven” is pictured as amorphous Do-What-You-Want Land, then I agree.
If heaven, or eternal life (I sometimes use those words rather than the former) means eternal fellowship with the living God, then I would argue this is an acceptable place to begin.
A statement about God’s holiness isn’t the first phrase out of my mouth in a five-minute conversation, but that doesn’t mean I don’t cover that ground. EE trainers suggest you start with a couple of questions, actually: one about certainty of life after death, and the other about the grounds of that certainty. And the discussion of God’s mercy and justice, as well as man’s inability to live a sufficiently righteous life to earn eternal life (cf. Matthew 5:48) implies God’s holiness.
Once again, it isn’t perfect, but it’s better than whatever ideal system the would-be evangelist has not quite gotten around to using.
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You would be hard pressed to find a whole lot of difference between how Christians define “reconciliation” and how to live it out. Most of the difference would be semantic and insignificant to the core that Make it Man refers to.
Church history is replete with examples of large groups of Christians telling other groups they are wrong in their belief that they are reconciled to God, solely because they differ on some theological particular (baptism by immersion necessary? Born Again w/sinner’s prayer enough? Allegiance to the Pope? Allegiance to the Patriarch? Belief in literal “substitutionary atonement? Baptized in the Holy Spirit? Belief in universalism? etc., etc., even worse, there are the WOW tests for Christian living: Hate gays? Hate abortion? Member of GOP?)! Now you may insist that all these are “semantic and insignificant,” but I doubt Colson would agree with you the relative importance of theological specificity, since he seems to think that most Christians don’t even know this “core” of which you speak.
In fact, I doubt that even Chuck Colson and his disciple Joel Mark would give consistent soteriologies (theologies of salvation and reconciliation) if asked to write them out in any meaningful detail.
I don’t think that this “core” you refer to actually exists as a meaningful set of propositions you all agree on, though clearly most of you believe it does.
Notice that, even in the verse you cite, Paul is imploring Christians to be reconciled to God, indicating that they aren’t unless they accept that Paul is God’s “ambassador” and believe that God is speaking through him! Puhlease! On the other hand, I’m sure Buddhists believe they’re reconciled to God and living like it. Does that make them Christians, too? What are they missing from your “core”?
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Spinoza: Again, these may be differences of “how” a person is reconciled, but all are in agreement “that” they must be reconciled and that the reconciliation comes by/through Christ. They all agree that “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by me.”
That is what the Buddhists, Muslims and others are missing.
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49-Karen,
thanks. I really think that the real life stories, which show God’s work in reality, are the missing link to our God and our faith being real. Perhaps this is why people stray to other religions. We hide the work of God when we are unwilling to share what he is doing in our lives. This means not pre-judging when he is working and when he is not working, but believing that he IS working in everything that happens. So we need to be willing to share it all (not without proper relationship boundaries, of course.)
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#52 – So how come, according to Colson, most Christians don’t know this?
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p.s. This Johannine theo-babble –
“I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by me.”
is so vague as to be meaningless. (Not to mention the fact that it is almost certain that Jesus never said any such thing!)
Way to what?
Life of what?
Truth?
Truth is a property of propositions. Is Jesus a property of propositions? If I say “the sky is blue,” do you reply “That’s the Jesus,” if you agree with me?
My experience is that Christians most often say “Jesus is the Truth” when they don’t like the truth of some other proposition such as: we evolved. What they mean here is “Jesus is my alternate reality that I prefer to the empirical one.”
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The Way to be reconciled to God.
The Truth concerning God.
The Source of Life in God.
But if these things can’t fit into your understanding of reality, I am curious as to why you seem so concerned in attempting to debunk it?
BTW, I don’t particularly agree with Colson on this issue. I think Christian confuse the message, but most agree on the fundamentals of the message. The fact that they have trouble articulating it is the problem of the church leaders to address. But you don’t have to be able to articulate something in order to believe it.
There are a lot of things in life that are difficult to understand and yet they are true.
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The way to God
The life as opposed to death.
The truth as opposed to “Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth”.
This is pretty simple. Your last two paragraphs have no meaning in this context. Thomas, (14:5) asked a simple question. I would have asked the same thing. The answer Jesus gave was simple too, but not immediately so. They later realized that Jesus was, in fact, providing a way for everyone to have eternal fellowship with God.
But if you believe that it is so much Johannie theo-babble, none of this will make sense to you either.
Sorry about that. I really am.
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Spinoza
We all observe from your posts that you don’t understand what GOD’s Word says, or you simply don’t want to. What does interest me is why you spend so much of your time arguing with Believers in Jesus Christ? You aren’t going to change our minds. Don’t you have anything better to do with your time?
The one thing you constantly bring up is ‘evolution’- It permeates many of your posts, no matter what the ‘topic’ is regarding.
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#58 Victoria – You hit the nail squarely on the head.
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After three years Jesus commanded His disciples to go and make disciples, teaching them all things Jesus had commanded. How long should that teaching take nowadays? Maybe it could even be hastened by a degree in education! Ha! We Americans should be able to crank out a fully educated disciple of Jesus in very short order, don’t you think? Able to go and make disciples and teach them, too, of course!
Anybody got a curriculum for that?
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We had a Wed night “paper” on Jesus as “The Truth”, and a lively discussion followed.
The basic idea is that we have succumbed to the idea that “Truth” is what corresponds to reality rather than the biblical view is that Jesus IS the Truth. He is the creator and sustainer of reality- or as some have said, “The very I AM of I AM-ness”. It’s curious to me that His Creation seems to be taken as the Definer, rather than the defined. We tend to take the philosophic view that we are looking “up” at reality and determine what corresponds with it, or, in Francis Schaeffer’s words, man is the measure of all things, instead of looking to the TRUTH as a person who informs us about reality.
I’m sure that’s not as well put as the author of the paper put it, but you get the general idea. I’m thinking he’s correct in this. If you find this viewpoint strange, you might want to consider Jesus’ words a little more…
It’s not really Johannine gibberish if you ask me. There’s really an understandable world view behind it Spinoza.
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It’s not really Johannine gibberish if you ask me. There’s really an understandable world view behind it Spinoza.
I know all too well what’s behind it, since I used to spout it with as much enthusiasm as anyone here.
But my statement was intentionally provocative to make you be clear about what you’re saying and perhaps to register another beef – these verses too often serve as a mantra of nonsense for unthinking fundamentalism. As a reply to an assertion about empirical truth of a proposition that fundamentalists want to deny (like the age of the earth), it is completely stupid to suddenly reply smugly that “Jesus is the Truth” or “God’s wisdom is as foolishness.” Translation: I have my fingers in my ears and eyes and can’t face reality.
Victoria The one thing you constantly bring up is ‘evolution’- It permeates many of your posts, no matter what the ‘topic’ is regarding.
Yes – that’s because you still haven’t gotten the message! Which is – empirical truth about nature shows that your literal view of man’s origin is wrong, as is much of the pseudo-ethics that you infer from such a foundation of error!
I don’t think atheism follows from evolution, but I do think Christian fundamentalism is refuted by it.
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Erasmus
You don’t have a message, that’s the point you are missing. You have a theory, which you drag everywhere you go.
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The reason that so many Christians are ignorant of their faith is because so many churches are too interested in winning approval of the world that Scripture is undervalued and almost treated as unnecessary to the faith. The cafeteria buffet approach (”I like some of the Bible but not all…”) to Scripture regarding discerning the truth is tolerated by many churches in order to achieve approval of humans and for attracting warm bodies in the pews with checkbooks.
The wider church is whoring to the world.
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#63 – Erasmus has not posted on this thread – this post is a perfect example of how well you pay attention.
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Spinoza
The post should have been to you, sorry for the error. It’s not “example” of anything, I have been very busy all morning. I’m sure you can handle a post sent to someone else my mistake,
but then maybe you can’t!
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Spinoza,
Who are you trying to convince with your average secular fundamentalist diatribes, we believers or yourself?
For example: I really don’t believe in UFOs, so I dont’ waste my time on a UFO website trying to convince others that they are wrong.
Something is eating at you. And this ex-atheist knows exactly Who it is.
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#61 Very nice I think.
“Christians don’t know what they believe in.” Christians don’t believe in a “what.” We believe in a “who.” I don’t see the big problem as one of knowledge but rather of trust. We don’t really trust the One in whom we say we believe. We give pat answers to difficult questions because we don’t trust God to have truer, more profound answers if we pursue him. We withold our resources, love, and our lavish faith impulses because we don’t trust the One who provided them to fulfill his promises to us. The church that transformed the ancient world was one of martyrs, miracles and outrageous faith and love. We don’t trust Jesus Christ enough to step out of our wimpiness into that kind of life.
Of course good teaching and doctrine are important, but Jesus’ final commandment was “that you love one another.” I don’t recall a caveat that such love depended on 100% correct doctrine. No one in this life can get it all right. Imagine if all doctrinal disputes were settled with the participants side by side, on their knees, with tears, humility and love. But I digress. The facts of the Gospel are simple, straightforward, and, to the unbeliever, outlandish. It is the “who” of Christianity, through the Holy Spirit, that gives the faith to believe and live by the light and power of such an outlandish truth.
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Something is eating at you. And this ex-atheist knows exactly Who it is.
Ummm, that would be the collective ghost of zillions of my crazy fundamentalist relatives, nearly all of whom sound like some of the posters on WOW.
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p.s. For example: I really don’t believe in UFOs, so I dont’ waste my time on a UFO website trying to convince others that they are wrong.
Interesting example – at least you admit that fundamentalist Christian faith is equivalent to believing in UFOs!
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p.p.s. If you used to believe in UFO’s, and most of your family still believed in UFO’s, wouldn’t you at least try??? A little???
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Spin - 70
YOU WRITE:…. “Interesting example – at least you admit that fundamentalist Christian faith is equivalent to believing in UFOs!”
Lutheran1983 didn’t say that, nor was it inferred, you do SPIN IT, SPIN ON –
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Would that be spin in the sense of lying about what “theory” means in the context of science? That kind of spin?
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Spinoza,
You’re just proving my point. LOL
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#74 – You mean the one you made about Victoria believing that Ezekiel’s wheel was a UFO? (just kidding)
I’m glad to hear you can “LOL” – Victoria is not so good at LOL unless it’s “laughing at”.
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Spinoza,
I never made a comment about Victoria or anything Victoria said.
Spinoza, from your previous posts, your Scriptural hermeneutical skills are lacking, as is your scientific expertise. You remind as I was some 20 + years ago, when I was “convinced” of some of the same self-contradictory (”It is absolutely true that there is no absolute truth.”) secular fundamentalist tenets. I predict that you’ll find atheism much more difficult to defend and support as time and observations/study goes on. I suggest you try agnosticism first and keep your mind open. Your anger betrays your facade of self-confidence. I say this in Christian love. The Lord Jesus Christ loves you as much as anyone else.
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Lutheran that is fascinating. Do you have a blog?
spinoza you know what keeps us here. the irrestible whiff of freshly ground tard, steaming hot right out of the oven, sweet and delectable in the way that only innocent stupidity can be.
It’s hard to find these days. This place is a veritable mother lode and there ain’t many miners.
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How about an empiracal study? Let’s find out how many WOW readers (that’s us) have weathered these discussions and as a result, turned into Christians!!
It would also be instructive to find out from converts what influenced the actual conversion…
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I didn’t “turn into a Christian”. The Lord Jesus Christ awakened me from the deep sleep of denial. Thanks be to God!
We Lutherans do not profess to know why some believe and some are successful in their denial, pursuits of trying to be their own god.
Paul tells us that the the devil blinds the unbeliever. That doesn’t let the unbeliever off the hook, because they are already unbelievers before they are blinded. Victoria is right: unbelievers seek solace in their plight. I, too, pity them, although they have only themselves to blame. Victoria knows that, too. Blessed is she.
Still, the presence of the unbelievers on this website is proof positive of denial. If they could prove Christianity wrong, they wouldn’t be here. If doubts of their own theology (and everyone/everything has a theology) didn’t exist, they wouldn’t be here. (see previous UFO analogy posted above) I used to be one of them. God has blessed us with abundance of His providence and presence, and that is what brings out the anger of some who post here: we humans make lousy gods and unbeleivers have absolutely no idea how foolish they look waving an angry fist before the crucified Christ on the cross. What I fool I was, but God is good. The cross of His beloved Son proves that-beyond any really “reasonable” doubt that can be sustained.(see John 17, a wonderful revelation of Christ by Christ Himself)
Jesus Christ is risen! He is risen, indeed! Alleluia!
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Lutheran,
I am a Lutheran, too.
I am talking about what actually draws people to faith being the real evidence of faith in believer’s lives. I am suggesting that debates/arguements with words do not. Let the unsaved witness the believer’s response to trials and temptations and see the difference.
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Lutheran1983 – 79
YOU WRITE:… “Still, the presence of the unbelievers on this website is proof positive of denial. If they could prove Christianity wrong, they wouldn’t be here. If doubts of their own theology (and everyone/everything has a theology) didn’t exist, they wouldn’t be here. (see previous UFO analogy posted above) I used to be one of them. God has blessed us with abundance of His providence and presence, and that is what brings out the anger of some who post here:”
Excellent points, they are here because of doubt, – - their frustration is manifested in their anger. You make another point; “have absolutely no idea how foolish they look waving an angry fist before the crucified Christ on the cross.
Thank you for your post.
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Thank you, Victoria, for your comments. I have also appreciated your posts, as well. You seem to understand that the burden of proof is not in our hands. Jesus told his disciples to spread the Word. Salvation is God’s work. God’s peace to you.
Reg, you are right. Who has been argued into believing? No one that I know of. However, I do believe that Christians do need to answer objections to the faith in a land that is increasingly running from Christ. But thank you for the reminder. God’s blessing to you, as well.
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answering objections to those who are truly asking (not that it is ours to judge) is one thing…typical classroom/playground manners are quite another
respect vs. disrespect
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I predict that you’ll find atheism much more difficult to defend and support as time and observations/study goes on.
I’m not not and have never been an atheist (or a member of the communist party).
I never made a comment about Victoria or anything Victoria said.
I’m guessing the phrase “just kidding” is new to you!
If they could prove Christianity wrong, they wouldn’t be here. If doubts of their own theology (and everyone/everything has a theology) didn’t exist, they wouldn’t be here.
Master of the non sequitur are we? It must be nice to revel in illogic, since then you’ll always have plenty of “proofs” for whatever you like to believe, eh?!
You seem to understand that the burden of proof is not in our hands.
Yes Victoria(n) does indeed agree with you there! Unfortunately, when you make anti-empirical extravagant claims, the burden of proof is always in your hands! But here you are again admitting that realistic “proof” is irrelevant to you. Tell me, did your “conversion” follow a big break up, divorce, or some other personal crisis? I’m fascinated about how often I hear this story?
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we humans make lousy gods and unbeleivers have absolutely no idea how foolish they look waving an angry fist before the crucified Christ on the cross.
Sounds like you fancy this sterotype. “Why do the heathen rage so furiously together,” eh? But I can’t even imagine “waving an angry fist” in front of any crucified person, much less Jesus!! It would take a religious zealot to do such a thing. I can imagine jesus throwing fundagelicals out of their own temples for being completely delusional and self-righteous.
What [a] fool I was,…
Looks like not much has changed.
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frothy mouthed believers have no idea how foolish they look worshipping a dead man on a stick.
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1Corinthian 1:25-31
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling brethern, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble: But God has CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has CHOSEN the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen,the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are so that no man may boast before God. But by HIS DOING you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let Him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
It is not about me.
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But God has CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to shame the wise,
Whaddya suppose this refers to Grandma? What “foolish things” were chosen to “shame the wise?” Do you suppose that every foolish thing qualifies or only certain foolish things? Like?
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Good questions.
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of th wise and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”
1 Corinthians 1:18-19
God’s word speaks for itself.
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God’s word speaks for itself.
Unfortunately, Christians often speak for God’s word in truly foolish ways. I have hear “God’s wisdom is as foolishness” applied to a lot of things other than Christ on the Cross! And most of them are just plain foolish; no wisdom of God is anywhere to be found!
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Spinoza, Erasmus and others,
Again, God’s word speaks for itself. It is not by our reason or decision that we become believers but by the faith God gives us through His word.
God sent His son to die on the Cross as the ultimate sacrifice to bring us back to Himself. I am very thankful to Him for this. He also wants all to be saved but he gives us the freedom to reject him, which you obviously have.
I will pray for the Holy Spirit to give you and the others the faith that we are so comfortable in.
God’s Peace!
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90-
that was convincing and non-specific
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#86 – Christianity isn’t the only mythic religion that looks “foolish” at face value. I think most of these have psychological meanings that run deep and possess an actual psychological “wisdom” of sorts. The crucifixion/resurrection is no exception – it is a pretty powerful symbol of hope in the middle of tragedy. What ruins it all for me, though, is when true believers insist on acceptance of a literal substitionary atonement that confers special gifts of immortal bliss solely on the faithful while denying them to the rest of the human race. This special one-true-religion “chosen” mentality does a lot more harm than good. But then, I’m sure this is exactly what Chuck Colson thinks all Christians should believe! Whether it’s the GOP in the Nixon years, or fundamentalist Christianity now, Colson likes to think he’s part of a special elite club!
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Spinoza,
The “literal Substitutional atonement” you write about is the blood shed by Christ on the Cross for ALL people. “For God so loved the WORLD that he gave His only son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to CONDEMN the world, but that the WORLD might be SAVED through Him”. John 3:16,17
Nobody is denied salvation, they reject it. We are praying for you!!
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#94 Yes of course everyone is invited to join the stepford evangelical club as long as they believe and act “evangelical”.
Been there done that.
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#94 p.s. But thanks for the prayers just the same!
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“Act evangelical.” Good observation. That statement is evidence that we living under the law. But the law condemns. We cannot live a perfect life, which is demanded by God. Matthew 5:48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. We have no power in and of ourselves to be perfect. It is only when God looks at us through the cross of Christ that we become perfect. That is living under grace. We are not invited to live under grace, it is given to us as a free gift. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9
As I stated before, it is not about me or anything I do. I have nothing to offer. I am free to live under His grace. It is ALL about HIM.
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#97 – Well, Grandma, clearly Colson should have no problem with you!
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AMEN!! Good Job, Grandma!!!
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