Teacher told to remove Bible from classroom
In this day and age, it can be tough to be a public school science teacher who believes in the Bible and questions evolution. I’m sure that many, so that they can keep their jobs and not be “Expelled,” quietly follow the dictates of their local school districts. John Freshwater, who teaches middle school science in Mount Vernon, Ohio, has had his share of run-ins with his bosses in the 21 years he’s taught in the Mount Vernon school system over his views of evolution versus intelligent design.
Last week, Freshwater agreed to a directive from the school district and his principal that ordered him to take down a poster of the Ten Commandments from his classroom door and posters featuring Bible verses from the walls, and to remove Bibles from a shelf, but he has refused to get rid of his personal Bible he keeps on his classroom desk. “[That Bible is] something he draws personal inspiration from,” R. Kelly Hamilton, one of Freshwater’s attorneys, told The Columbus Dispatch. “It just so happens that it’s a Bible. For some people it’s a personal photograph or a coffee mug.”
The school district, of course, fears that a Bible sitting on a teacher’s desk shows favoritism toward a particular religion and violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. (In its statement, the school district did not address any concerns it had over its denial of the Free Exercise Clause.) And, not surprisingly, the ACLU has weighed in, coming down on the side of the school district.
On Thursday, hundreds of supportive students held a rally at the high school and started a petition drive for the teacher who’s affectionately known as “Fresh H2O.” They also made a statement by bringing their own Bibles to school and plopping them down on their desks.
Barbara Smith, a mother of one of Freshwater’s former students, told the Mount Vernon News, “If he was doing something wrong I could understand it. He’s not doing anything wrong. They have taken everything away out of the schools. … When I was in school, we prayed in the morning. Now, they don’t. That’s what’s wrong with the schools today. The discipline has gotten so out of control. The kids have gotten so out of control. They’ve taken everything [the values] out.”
And, of course, we have things like this happening (or, in this case, almost happening) in schools today.
UPDATE (April 23): Today’s Mount Vernon News reported on an investigation of Freshwater’s conduct. (HT: Erasmus)




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back to top112 Comments to “Teacher told to remove Bible from classroom”
Well if you think that I could get a job as a school teacher and keep that photo of me and my boyfriend in speedo’s on that nude beach (no such picture exists but lets pretend one does), than yeah I guess he has a right to put his Bible on his desk.
If on the other hand you think that an employer has a right to control the content of it’s employees work desks, than he doesn’t have a case.
I can’t put up any old thing I want at my desk at work, and I can think of some stuff in my room at home that my boss certainly wouldn’t tolerate being on display in the office. He doesn’t have some fundamental right that I don’t posses here.
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Luke I wouldn’t want a hetero teacher to bring a picture of himself in a speeedo to school and I’m betting you could have a decently dressed picture of anyone you wanted.
And any boss who values his job would be wise to listen to his investors (the taxpayer) and his clients (the parents).
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I keep a copy of the Koran on my bookshelf at work along with one of my Bibles. No one in my state’s government is going to make me get rid of a Koran, and they can’t make me get rid of just the Bible.
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Luke: In what way could a picture of you and your boyfriend in a Speedo compare to a Bible?
Apples and oranges don’t make a good combination unless you’re making fruit salad.
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If it were a Koran these same people would put him up for teacher of the year no doubt.
All he has to do is call it research material and he would win his huge lawsuit that they are sure to get over this.
These whack job socialist PC’ers in the education need to pay off on some big lawsuits but I am guessing they still won’t get it and keep their discrimination against Christianity in place anyway.
Another example that shows only the left descriminates today – against anything.
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He seems to think apples and oranges do compare, and I happen to think he’s right. His personal book he says is no different than a personal photograph, his analogy, not mine. I support his analogy though because he’s right. Like my personal photographs, some of his books are appropriate for the edge of his work desk, and some are not. Just like any other job.
Me and KRM have more permissive employers than he does not more rights. My boss would not object to a bible on my desk, but he also doesn’t have obligations to the constitution. Though I seriously doubt that KRM is telling us the 100% truth.
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Luke (and everyone else) – I am telling the absolute truth above. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
My email address is available at the “Meet the Regulars” page. Send me a message and I’ll respond with a photo of my bookself showing both books.
I keep the Koran there specifically to keep the PC twits here from bothering me about the Bible.
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It seems like he was spoiling for a fight. Instead of just placing a Bible on his desk and consulting it for guidance/inspiration/comfort during recess or lunch, he plastered his classroom with religious posters which were not appropriate for classroom use. By forcing a confrontation, he forced the board into a decision they would have liked to avoid. Now that he created the situation, the board was forced to act and asked him to remove the religious material and Bible. If he had a Bible in his desk for personal use then he would have avoided this problem.
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KRM, that’s a good idea. Where did you get the Koran?
Back when I worked for a Catholic organization a rumor got around that a car with anti-Catholic literature and a gun in the back seat had been seen in the parking lot. I joked that I would keep my King James Bible close by in case I had to hold it up to prove I wasn’t catholic if the guy showed up in our office.
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KBells,
Most bookstores carry the Koran but it does not count unless it is in Arabic and you would understand it clearly unless you read it in Arabic, does not matter if you know Arabic or not.
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I agree with HRW – doesn’t sound like the Bible was there for “inspiration” (how can you read your bible when you’re supposed to be teaching?) but as a point of pride. With a history of in-yo-face 10-commandment posters, this guy clearly has attitude, and I don’t see why he should be allowed to maintain it.
It is so strange to read a perennial WOW stream of posts that promote destruction of the church-state boundary (i.e., are essentially anti-constitutional) while exuding a more-patriotic-than-thou pride, all without a hint of a clue about the inherent inconsistency. Why not just dispense with the subtleties and start a “Theocracy NOW!” campaign?
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Kbells: You should be able to pick a Koran up down at the local Democrat Headquarters. They are trying to beat the inevitable rush for Korans after Obama (if he is elected) surrenders the United States to Bin Laden and Ahmadinejad; the DNC is therefore (proactively) stockpiling them, and burqas as well. You may want to go ahead and pick up a burqa as well, while you are there. It would save time later, if Obama is elected.
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I was a public school administrator for 25 years and always kept a Bible in plain view on my desk. This is a free speech issue and any teacher in America, working in the public schools, has the right to display a Bible on his or her desk; just as any student has a right to take a Bible to school to read during any free time available.
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Spinoza, I know that you know that the Constitution says two things about religion, not just one.
How do you think the free exercise clause relates to this case?
And how does one teacher having a Bible on his desk mean that the state has an official religion or a theocracy?
Please, please tackle my quesitons. I’m interested in what you would say.
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Kbells – The one I have at work is an inexpensive translation by Shakir (I don’t really recommend it if you are going to actually read it). I would recommend looking for the 1955 Arthur Arberry translation if you were ever going to read it.
I also have a big heavy hardcover from CAIR (they were offering it free a while back – there is a charge for it now). It is a beautiful book (well bound, nice artwork, high quality paper), but the English translation is somewhat sanitized for Western English speakers’ consumption.
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Luke,
Just where does the Constitution say that a school teacher can’t have a Bible, or can’t reference a Bible? (Answer: It doesn’t. It does say one cannot be discrminated against for their faith, which if it addresses this issue at all, says that he CAN keep a Bible on his desk.)
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If he has to take his Bible off his desk, every other teacher should have to remove ALL non-subject related books and material off their desk!
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What’s next, the English teacher can’t wear her cross and the Math teacher has to remove her Star of David?
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All he has to do is cover the word “Bible” on the binder side and place a label on it with the words; “Das Kapital.” Then all would be fine.
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If any school had even the slightest desire to actually be a learning institution rooted in the principle of academic freedom and respect, the Bible would be completely acceptable on any shelf or desk or wall and it would even be studied!
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The Ten Commandments might give students a standard for behavior beyond their own feelings. Now that is downright unacceptable.
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Would this be an issue if he hadn’t’ raised the issue by plastering his wall with posters?
If he had simply put his bible next to other books on his desk, I hardly think this would be an issue — no one would have noticed.
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Spinoza wrote; “It is so strange to read a perennial WOW stream of posts that promote destruction of the church-state boundary…”
Huh? What is strange is that you think that the presence of a Bible or some quotes from that great classic and most read best-seller of all time constitutes any kind of destruction of the church-state boundary.
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Spinoza – As for starting a “Theocracy NOW!” campaign, Barak Obama has already done that.
* On October 7, 2007, Obama addressed an evangelical congregation in South Carolina, saying: “Sometimes you can become fearful, sometimes you can become vain, sometimes you can seek power just for power’s sake instead of because you want to do service to God. I just want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God… I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth.”
* At Hocking College in Nelsonville, Ohio, Obama recently cited the Bible (the Sermon on the Mount) as support for legalizing same-sex unions. Is he trying to replace the Consitution with his own [re-written] Bible?
* In March, in Philadelphia, Obama said, “In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world’s great religions demand – that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother’s keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister’s keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well.”
Note that he said, “…let our politics reflect that spirit as well.” Does he want our government to be our “brother’s keeper?” Does he want a ‘Big Brother’ government?
* At the Compassion Forum at Messiah College, April 13, 2008, Barack Obama claimed, “…nobody in a presidential campaign on the Democratic side in recent memory has done more to reach out to the church and talk about, what are our obligations religiously, in terms of doing good works, and how does that inform our politics?”
What is a political candidate mean by our “obligations relgiously?” What is he willing to do to enforce those obligations on us in the name of good government? How much in taxes is he willing to force from us to do those good words in the name of religious obligations?
He offers a presidency in which time he will unleash the power of government to set things right in the world. He offers a messianic hope with the full weight and force of the U.S. government to back him up. His message [is] that government will provide solutions to the ills of the world.
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2nd to last paragraph: “good words” was supposed to be “good works”
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Spinoza at #11: t is so strange to read a perennial WOW stream of posts that promote destruction of the church-state boundary (i.e., are essentially anti-constitutional) while exuding a more-patriotic-than-thou pride, all without a hint of a clue about the inherent inconsistency.
Nah, it’s par for the course. Nothing strange about it.
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How do you think the free exercise clause relates to this case?
I think that someone with a track record of shoving the 10 commandments down student’s throats in a science class is likely to abuse the presence of a Bible on their desk and could reasonably be asked to remove it from view as a religious symbol of influence on middle-school kids. Why can’t he keep it in his desk drawer? This is not the same as simply having a private Bible at work which could be protected if there were no other factors if it were strictly private.
I know I used to use a conspicuous Bible regularly as an intro to evangelizing – it was rather like those campaigns that dared the gullible to inquire (e.g., an “I found it” button), so that you could issue your readied salvation-tract message in rapid fire at the slightest hint of inquiry. So I don’t think this belongs in a public school science classroom, because I don’t believe for a second this guy is just inspiring himself – he’s evangelizing!
Of course I’m just speculating on the base of the reported facts, and who knows if they are accurate.
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And how does one teacher having a Bible on his desk mean that the state has an official religion or a theocracy?
It doesn’t of course – I was referring also to WOW enthusiasm for the Expelled effort to put sectarian religious belief into academic science.
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The greatest testimony to the awesome power and inspiration of the Bible is the abject fear the secular left has for the mere presence of its words on a wall or in a classroom.
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Spinoza. Thanks for answering. I did find your answers interesting. I applaud your rhetorical prowess.
Saying that he shoved the Ten Commandments down the throats of the students is very powerful, but I hardly think that putting a poster on a wall is shoving something down a person’s throat. I know that when I see things that are posted, I assume that I can accept them or reject them (or even ignore them).
You make a very excellent point when you say that he could have kept his Bible in his drawer. True enough. But it fails to answer the question of why he should have to. Does a Bible on a desk harm anyone? Does it keep his students from learning the subject matter? You’ve already admitted that it doesn’t establish an official religion or a theocracy.
Let’s move on to a different aspect of the issue. Given that the Bible is valuable (to some extent or other) as a source for history, culture, and literature, should its presence be banned from public schools? Should the entire existence of Jews and Christians be ignored? Should literary and artistic references to the Bible, or the fact that millions of people have held it sacred, be ignored?
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I think it is hilarious (in a sad sort of way) that certain books aren’t allowed in school.
Even more absurd is an educational institution banning the most read book on planet Earth.
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For those of you who want the authoritative Qur’an used by most English speaking Muslims, purchase this one:
“The Meaning of the Holy Qur’an” by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. ISBN 0-915957-32-9 Soft Cover.
It has full commentary and includes both Arabic and English. Everyone should read this in order to understand the religion that wants you dead. Having one on your desk might get you promoted in American public schools. The Bible will get you fired.
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I have a Quran which was published 1998, it is in Arabic and English. It is not difficult to understand, I purchased this some time ago.
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I recommend Arberry’s 1955 English translation of the Koran because the bloodthirstiness and other nastiness are not sanitized out for the consumption of the foriegners (i.e. the English speaking Westerners). It gives the full sense of the original language (Arberry was an Arabic scholar without a ‘dog in the fight’ of spreading Islam).
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Given that the Bible is valuable (to some extent or other) as a source for history, culture, and literature, should its presence be banned from public schools? Should the entire existence of Jews and Christians be ignored? Should literary and artistic references to the Bible, or the fact that millions of people have held it sacred, be ignored?
No, No, No. Use of the Bible as literary history should be encouraged — use of imagery, metaphors in literature and its origin is a worthwhile in English lit class, senior high school. BUT this is not the issue … a middle school science teacher who has a history of evangelizing in the class and has been ordered to remove all posters and religious materials from his classroom refuses to carry out the wishes of his employer.
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KRM
My Quran was last revised in 1951, so its original text is still there.
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HRW, the issue remains that this teacher is being told to remove his Bible from his desk. The issue is religious intolerance by the school district. Sounds like many or most of the kids are in support of the teacher’s free speech rights. I bet that some students who support the teacher’s freedom are not even Christians.
This teacher even AGREED to take down the Ten Commandment poster, and other posters featuring Bible verses, and to remove Bibles from a shelf. But his right to have a Bible on his desk was also being rejected. There seems to be NO compromise in the religious intolerance of the district.
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Joel,
I believe more and more private schools are going to spring up, especially those who are connected to individual Churches. Perhaps the church should begin to look at private school as a means to protect their youth, even as far as giving it free to single parents or those where both parents must work, but their incomes are very low. Income would be checked VERY CLOSELY, to make sure they couldn’t pay tuition. That would include those who live beyond their incomes and then wanted free private school —- that would not be acceptable.
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For public schools I like the Koran, etc. idea. Put the Bible in with a bunch of other religious texts; they all should be studied as either literature or as competing religious truths. Let the students make up their minds for themselves. That would be the classical liberal way.
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This teacher even AGREED to take down the Ten Commandment poster, and other posters featuring Bible verses, and to remove Bibles from a shelf. But his right to have a Bible on his desk was also being rejected. There seems to be NO compromise in the religious intolerance of the district.
You can’t compromise with stupid. Some men just don’t learn, so you have what we had here today. He wants it, He gets it. Just because I like it more than you doesn’t mean he is any less of an idiot for spoiling for such a fight.
Mickey apparently doesn’t have enough sense to wade through all of the lies in Expelled, so take his ignorant pleading for affirmative action for theocrats to be par for the course.
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Jon this is true. If you actually had the bible laying around, it would be the biggest antidote to the moonbat lunacy of people believing it to be true.
This was in a science classroom for the love of science. I’m fairly sure multiple regression is not in the bible, and we know the biology and geology sections are bunk. We have mechanical models for the narrative of Christs ethics and observations of the various permutations of this system in nature.
You don’t know need the bible in a science classroom except as an opportunity for discussing what the role of scientific explanation entails. If you actually tried to teach kids anything about reality by using the bible, you would have the atheist generation. Go for it.
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sigh.
And here we go again. Yet another predictable series of posts about how Christians are soooo oppressed, puerile speculation that Koran would be ok, blah blah on and on …
You people are so childish sometimes.
All you’re proving YET AGAIN is that the public schools are the wrong venue for religious expression, precisely because it ALWAYS leads to this kind of idiocy.
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He went overboard with his religious exposition and now is being forced to eliminate all religious items from his classroom. If he had kept his religiosity to a personal level ie only the bible at his desk, the school board would’ve never been involved. He’s now paying for his attempt to stretch the rules.
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Income would be checked VERY CLOSELY, to make sure they couldn’t pay tuition. That would include those who live beyond their incomes and then wanted free private school —- that would not be acceptable.
A simple copy of their tax assessment statement isn’t good enough among fellow Christians — you have to monitor their lifestyle. Try the honour system, it works on public transit it should work with the church.
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“Yet another predictable series of posts about how Christians are soooo oppressed, . . ”
The facts of this story show that there is some oppression of Christians in the public school system.
“. . .puerile speculation that Koran would be ok, blah blah on and on …:
Okay, are you suggesting that a school district could get away with forbidding a Muslim teacher from having a copy of the Koran on his desk? Do you personally think that the Koran should be banned from a teacher’s desk?
“All you’re proving YET AGAIN is that the public schools are the wrong venue for religious expression, precisely because it ALWAYS leads to this kind of idiocy.”
Which part is idiotic– Banning a book in a school or upholding the Constitutional rights of a teacher? Fearing that the mere presence of a book will harm students or fearing that the stripping of a person’s rights will harm our whole society?
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If you’re actually censored for religious freedom and appeal to the Constitution you are “sooooooooo childish”. And our friendly neighborhood skeptics define any complaint from a Christian as idiocy. Curiously, this proves the point.
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Students and teachers do not abandon their 1st Amendment rights when they walk through the school house doors. If this teacher sues the school district for forcing him to remove the Bible from his desk, the school system will lose. Many school administrators, who obviously skipped school law, have previously made this mistake with students and teachers around the US. When administrators tell students or teachers they can’t have a Bible (specifically) in public view (as on a desk), they lose when they go to court. If the teacher or student is Muslim or Hindu (etc.), the same principle applies. Teachers or students may read religious materials to themselves in public view on school grounds. Students may even give each other religious reading materials on school grounds. The 1st Amendment allows students to wear t-shirts with pictures of Jesus or Mohammad while on school grounds. Last year, a judge in Virginia forced the administrators from an entire school system to attend a meeting where he explained 1st Amendment rights to principals and supervisors who thought they were suppose to ban all religious materials from their schools. The meeting was a part of his ruling against the school district.
The posters in this case are an “ify” issue where the teacher should probably follow his supervisors directives. School systems that tend to tell teachers and students where they can put their Bibles, however, only continue to get away with it when they are not sued by competent constitutional & school law attorneys.
The Christian public has allowed itself to become much too intimidated on issues like this because of secular progressive hype.
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I agree that people should be allowed to read their religious literature during their free time at work (break, lunch etc) but when you antagonize your supervisor with an entire room of posters; you are acting in a provocative manner. Provocation and not simple religious faith is the issue here.
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And our friendly neighborhood skeptics define any complaint from a Christian as idiocy
Make legitimate complaints instead of idiotic ones. Expelled is not one a legitimate complaint, it is a litany of stupid people making stupid mistakes and making stupid choices and claiming stupid things. No one is Expelled .
Speaking of things that aren’t legitimate nor different from idiocy, neither is coddling the religious nutcases like this science teacher who no doubt knew exactly what he was doing (probably had the Reconstructionist Discovery Institute telling him they would support him like Dover…..oops. stuck the schools with that one didnt you creationists).
I agree with you when you say the Koran should be treated the same way. I share your contempt for anyone who would privilege the Koran over the Bible. They are all equally worthless in a scientific classroom.
Its not about religious freedom. Its about identity politics and the sham of modern christianism. You’ve all lost control over your own symbols and you need the state to give you affirmative action for bunk-ology.
If John Freshwater was honest, we would perhaps be justified in assuming that his share of run-ins with his bosses in the 21 years he’s taught in the Mount Vernon school system over his views of evolution versus intelligent design. are not all of his own making (or even exist at all).
But he is not. The question I am asking is why should you propose that we tolerate THIS in a science class room?
Last week, Freshwater agreed to a directive from the school district and his principal that ordered him to take down a poster of the Ten Commandments from his classroom door and posters featuring Bible verses from the walls, and to remove Bibles from a shelf
Last Week? LAST WEEK? Is this an Amish district? What kind of person thinks that his classroom is the platform for spreading his religion? When did provoking and goading students with a religious point of view become OK?
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Kyle A at #45: “Yet another predictable series of posts about how Christians are soooo oppressed, . . ”
The facts of this story show that there is some oppression of Christians in the public school system.
No they don’t. They show that open advocacy and promotion of a specific religion has no place in public school.
As Mickey stated in the original post, the teacher didn’t just keep a Bible on his desk for his own reading. He had several other much more obvious symbols up until made to take them down. This point has been mentioned several times through the course of the thread, and you all keep pretending it’s not so.
This was not a Christian teacher being harassed because of his mild-mannered private faith, which is what you’d all like to believe it is.
“. . .puerile speculation that Koran would be ok, blah blah on and on …:
Okay, are you suggesting that a school district could get away with forbidding a Muslim teacher from having a copy of the Koran on his desk?
Absolutely they could, and would, and should.
And you all bleating here about religious tolerance in this case would be the first in line to demand it in that case.
Especially if he also had a big poster elucidating the Five Pillars of Islam on the classroom door.
Do you personally think that the Koran should be banned from a teacher’s desk?
Yep. I do not think the public schools are the appropriate place for open practice of religion — any religion — because it invariably leads to someone being offended, someone else being offended at the offense, and an acrimonious argument that ends up with one person being told to back off on the religious displays and a bunch of other people whining about how unfair and intolerant it all is.
For cryin’ out loud, can’t there be one place in our pluralistic society where people can think about other topics without having to deal with arguments about religion?
“All you’re proving YET AGAIN is that the public schools are the wrong venue for religious expression, precisely because it ALWAYS leads to this kind of idiocy.”
Which part is idiotic– Banning a book in a school or upholding the Constitutional rights of a teacher? Fearing that the mere presence of a book will harm students or fearing that the stripping of a person’s rights will harm our whole society?
Nothing’s being banned. He’s being asked to not make a point of displaying it. Equating that to a “ban” that somehow threatens the Constitution is a symptom of the idiocy I’m talking about.
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Exactly. Schools are no place for religion, they are for education.
You can’t have the latter with the former laying around.
I will agree with every single person who says that it is the job of parent’s to do that sort of thing. I don’t care if it is Jesus or Mohammed or Krishna or C’thulhu or the angel Mormon or a little red book (instead of the unread book this guy is taking all the heat In Its Name). You wanna tell your kids that, go right ahead. First time they do LSD in college they will think “I’ll just walk on that water, Jesus did it”. Or even worse grow up just like mom and dad. That’s your job, not the states.
Pomo equivalence sniveling about affirmative action is particularly ironic given the subject matter.
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Samuel at #47: The Christian public has allowed itself to become much too intimidated on issues like this because of secular progressive hype.
So Samuel, if your children went to a science class in a public school where the teacher had a poster listing the Five Pillars of Islam on the door, posters with suras quoted on the walls, a Koran on a shelf and a Koran on his desk, you would be fine with that?
What if he had a poster listing principles of Wicca on the door, smaller posters with quotes about Wicca on the walls and copy of a book of spells on his desk? You’d find that a-ok?
Be honest.
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I think what’s missing here is the conservative hypocrite complaining that humanities college professors won’t stick to the subject they teach, and keeps going on and on about “social justice.”
Which leads to an interesting philosophical question: when the hypocritical speech is missing, are the hypocrites still present?
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Wow MM you bout like HSK.
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STEVEG at #52: Reread my comment. My subject was the legality of the presence of the Bible (or other religious books) in the classroom or school as the personal property of the teacher or student.
I did mention that “The posters in this case are an ‘ify’ issue where the teacher should probably follow his supervisors directives.” A school administrator has much more legal control over what is posted on the walls than he or she has over the teacher’s or student’s possession of a Bible on school property.
You are defending your point of view (which is fine) with “straw man” arguments and issues when I am simply pointing out the authority school administrators actually have in these situations based on previous judicial rulings.
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Unfortunately, ‘religion’ was so narrowly defined by the founders that they never foresaw the establishment of humanism as the favored ‘religion’ that it is today.
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Samuel at #55: As has already been pointed out, if he had just had a Bible on his desk, there probably would never have been a problem. He went out of his way to provoke a confrontation.
And once again, the students get caught in the middle of an unnecessary conflict that has nothing to do with the reason they’re in school in the first place.
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CCC: Unfortunately, ‘religion’ was so narrowly defined by the founders that they never foresaw the establishment of humanism as the favored ‘religion’ that it is today.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
That’s why I pass eight “humanist centers” and no churches on my drive to work. That’s why every candidate for public office has to take pains to express his or her atheism and repudiate any traditional reli… relig….
Dang, almost got through that with a straight face.
You are a hoot, CCC.
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CCC what is it exactly that you like the most about giving some guy a privileged position to spout religion at your kids? If he was muslim you would have a fit, but since you perceive him to be on your side it’s hunky dory?
Inconsistent and without integrity. You fail.
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Victoria (from #38),
I like your idea, but I would be more inclined to charge people on a scale rather than to give it free to some. People tend not to value those things in life that are given away for free and they do tend to value those things that they receive on some sort of “win-win” basis of exchange (they receive what they want in exchange for a payment that the institution needs to maintain its services). Teachers are worthy of their wages and every child’s family should participate in that “win-win” exchange principle, even if on a scale based on ability to pay.
I could even accept your suggestion of accepting some students for free but with a view to being able to take some payment responsibilities on within 3 to 6 months.
Your suggestion is good though and I share you hope for a rise in church-based schools.
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Erasmus wrote: “You can’t compromise with stupid.
SteveG wrote; “You people are so childish sometimes.”
We can tell that Erasmus and SteveG actually know they lost the debate because they resorted to ridicule, disreapect and dishonorable disagreement. Not only are they uncompromising in their intolerance, but they add name-calling and attacks on character to their posts. What else do they have left when they don’t have the facts or reason on their side?
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I might oppose excessive displays of the Koran in a public classroom but I would keep the conflict local. It is unconstitutional to use federal laws or sweeping rulings for all to keep religious expressions out of classrooms (or to force them into it). The education of children is not a federal responsibility.
Those who pay for the education should be free to set the standards. Unfortunately, the federal government pays for much of it today and that fact does invite their right to set some standards. But that is not as it should be. If we must have public education, the local community should be paying the lion’s share of it and the local community should able to set the practical standards of religious expressions in public schools. And if individuals or locals object to those standards set by the local people, for the local people and of the local people, then the objecting party should be free to take the responsibility for educating that child away from the state or governing body and take that responsibility upon themselves or send them to a privately chosen school.
The power should rest more with the parent than the state. The parent should be free to control more of the money that goes to their child’s education. In the Communist Manifesto, marx called for taking education from the family to make it “social.”
Not on our watch.
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Joel Mark at #61: We can tell that Erasmus and SteveG actually know they lost the debate because they resorted to ridicule, disreapect and dishonorable disagreement. Not only are they uncompromising in their intolerance, but they add name-calling and attacks on character to their posts. What else do they have left when they don’t have the facts or reason on their side?
Haha! “Lost the debate!” Very funny. We’ve won the debate on the facts, Joel Mark.
My describing some people as “childish” is not frustrated name-calling, it is an accurate assessment of the whining that predictably starts whenever someone makes an accusation that a Christian is being “oppressed” somewhere.
It is childish for several specific reasons:
1. It is an over-reaction. If the man were disciplined at his job because he reads the Bible at home, you’d have a case of real oppression (and I’d be on your side in a case like that.) For that matter, if he had been disciplined for merely having a Bible in the classroom, I would consider it excessive. But that’s not what happened here, as you all well know.
2. It is inconsistent. The same people who complain when a Christian runs afoul of the rules are the first ones in line to make sure any non-Christian gets in trouble. You know perfectly well if this story was about a Muslim, a pagan or a Buddhist who was aggressively promoting his religion in a public school science classroom, you would think what the school district did was fine, or possibly, not punitive enough. (This is a hallmark of childishness, refusing to grant others the same rights you demand for yourselves.)
3. It is based in part on imaginary systemic oppression based on unreasoned antipathy toward Christianity. Some are just certain that is the case, despite the lack of evidence for it.
So you see, far from being mere “name-calling,” my characterization was based on specific reasons and was completely appropriate.
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“Samuel at #55: As has already been pointed out, if he had just had a Bible on his desk, there probably would never have been a problem. He went out of his way to provoke a confrontation.”
And now, as has been pointed out, it is just that he has a Bible on his desk.
Whatever “provocation” occurred prior to this point has been addressed and corrected. We have no way of knowing if the previous “run-ins” were instigated by him or by the school administration.
Whether the school administration is being vindictive or merely careless of his rights, in the matter of his personal Bible on his desk, they are wrong.
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Well Ken, to paraphrase a bit from the Book, he sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.
If he had just put a Bible on his desk to begin with, it’s very likely nobody would have complained.
But he chose to invite trouble and now the requirements on him are going farther than they otherwise would,a nd it’s no one’s fault but his own.
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SteveG,
The first step in overcoming a name-calling problem is to admit you have one. Given your denial, I do not expect much progress from you in overcoming your problem.
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Hi Joel.
You are playing the role here and you know it.
To flagrantly flaunt the 10 commandments and bible verses on the wall of a public school classroom is stupid behavior. It gets you sued. Rightfully so, you would agree (as steve has pointed out again and again), except in this case because you wish the government to privilege your narrow religious viewpoint (what a coincidence you share this view with the proselytizing public school teacher!) with affirmative action protections.
Your view is that school boards should welcome the opportunity to pay for court cases served on fools who think public education gives them a missionary mandate. Fortunately thinking people out this for the inane insanity that it really is.
Last week, Freshwater agreed to a directive from the school district and his principal that ordered him to take down a poster of the Ten Commandments from his classroom door and posters featuring Bible verses from the walls, and to remove Bibles from a shelf.
LAST WEEK JOEL. THIS IS THE 21st CENTURY FOR THE LOVE OF ELECTRONS. IT HAS BEEN ILLEGAL FOR YEARS. STOP BREAKING THE LAW FOR JESUS AND THEN PLAYING WOUNDED MARTYR.
wow you are dishonest.
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Erasmus wrote; “You are playing the role here and you know it.”
I don’t know what role you are talking about but I do know that you don’t know what you think you know about me. But thinking you know something that you have no evidence for is typical.
But the hostility toward the Bible and Christianity in public schools is an undeniable fact. My wife, a school teacher, has even been told not to say “Merry Christmas.” It is all beyond ridiculous, and the dishonesty of those who deny the problem and the hostility toward Christian faith is obvious.
To display the Ten Commandment or quote Bible verses (depending to some degree on what quotes one chooses, of course) is inspirational and also is a perfectly normal thing to do throughout the history of education in the USA. There is nothing “stupid” about it and if you don’t know that, then you don’t know much. And you know what that means.
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Freshwater: “Thousands of citizens in this community have built their lives on deeply held religious convictions, and it is for them that I stand today,” John Freshwater, 51, who teaches at Mount Vernon Middle School, said in a news release.”
What has this to do with personal “inspiration”
Freshwater and Daubenmire believe that separation of church and state “is a fraud” and that the framers of the Constitution never intended it to be practiced the way it is today, Daubenmire said.
uh huh … and he expects to win in court?
Freshwater took down the Ten Commandments but decided that being prevented from taking a Bible into the classroom was going too far.
“personal inspiration” – right
In the past, Freshwater has taught his students about the “holes in evolution” and intelligent design, the theory that a supernatural power created complex forms of life, Daubenmire said.
ok – fire him – clear breach of establishment clause!
Freshwater wouldn’t answer questions directly because of the likelihood that he will file a lawsuit charging “viewpoint discrimination,” Daubenmire said.
Oh – so he hasn’t actually filed one – bluff I say
Daubenmire [religious activist "friend" who seems to be putting Freshwater up to all this] is a former London High School football coach whose district was sued in 1999 by the American Civil Liberties Union because he led his players in prayer at games, practices and meetings. The district settled out of court, and its insurance company paid the ACLU $18,000 for court costs.
The district got away easy!
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To display the Ten Commandment or quote Bible verses (depending to some degree on what quotes one chooses, of course) is inspirational and also is a perfectly normal thing to do throughout the history of education in the USA.
It is not – I’ve never ever seen the 10 commandments posted on public school walls for either my children or even myself decades ago!
“You shall have no other gods before me” [YHWH]
Sorry – that’s imposition of sectarian religion with no secular purpose and with both the effect and purpose of promoting a very particular religion. Joel, you have no clue if you think this is acceptable in public education!
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Erasmus wrote; “To flagrantly flaunt the 10 commandments and bible verses on the wall of a public school classroom is stupid behavior. It gets you sued.”
What a perfect statement to prove my point beyond all doubt. It is asinine that the courts would enforce a ban on all things biblical in a learning institution no less, and to have the threat of a lawsuit over our heads to back up such an unconstitutional denial of religious freedom of expression. That is hostility (toward Christianity) in the extreme.
I don’t want the government to do anything except protect the freedom the Constitution gives to all Americans to express their faith in public. It’s not an unlimited freedom but one that the local community should sort out on how and what the extent of that freedom should be honored or what limits would have to be respected. It’s not a federal issue in a free country that respects religious freedom. Give the power to the people on the local level (especially parents) when it comes to public school policies related to teaching matters of faith. But don’t use the courts or the judicial branch to deprive Americans of the most distinctive feature of all that makes us Americans–RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!
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Joel the role you are playing is the role of uninformed contrarian. And well I might add. i’m not interested in who can spray the most water about who knows what about anyone, or any other non sequitor that you pray up to distract attention from the facts that this guy has been cramming christ down kids throats. If he is running around teaching creationism in a public high school, he is breaking the law. You seem to think that is an honor. Telling, young prince.
Right spinoza. Obliviots think that prostituting their principle and exposing themselves to lawsuits for Jesus is somehow a constitutional right or counting coup on the establishment clause. It is foolish reckless inconsiderate and dangerous behavior, Joel, and to continually expose students and administration to that sort of threat is a very dumb thing to do.
There is nothing inspirational about the 10 commandments. Neither is there anything inspirational about the Code of Hammurabi, nor the Rules for your Homeowners Association or the New Jersey Bar. It’s illegal to boot. And should be. Unless you want some sheikhs cramming a bunch of equally mindless garbage from the Koran down your younguns throats.
Does your wife still say Merry Christmas? Good on her. Does she claim that Christmas is about the birth of the ittle wittle baby jesus? If so, she is lying to children. Not so good on her.
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Joel Mark:
It is not “hostility to Christianity” unless Christianity is the only religion so treated.
If you can show me that the classroom next to Freshwater’s has a big poster of the Five Pillars of Islam and the one across the hall is where a teacher keeps her Wiccan altar and her herbs for spells, but Freshwater alone has been told to take his Bible home, you’ll have a case.
Otherwise, you’re just whining that your particular religion isn’t allowed the special dispensation to be propounded in the public schools that you think it should have.
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Joel — I say Merry Christmas to my Muslim students all the time and have yet to be persecuted for it. (of course they understand irony) Many Christian teachers in my school complain they aren’t supposed to talk about Christmas but its simply not true — they just have to make room for other religions. the war on Christmas makes for good ratings and false outrage but its simply their imagination.
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Although I’m not an evangelical, I do keep a Bible at work for inspiration. But I keep it in my desk. That’s not because I fear that my employer will punish if I were to display it prominently. No! I keep it in my desk because I think it’s tacky to display it in places where my colleagues would see it.
Instead, I prefer to show my faith through the fruits of the Spirit, and through more subtle means. For example, I have a framed Rouault print hanging on my wall.
What annoys me most about evangelicals is their failure to appreciate the power of nuance and subtlety. Too often they remind me of the spoiled toddler who wears his emotions on his sleeves. Maybe the good educator can find more nuanced ways of communicating his election in Christ.
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Mickey, even the title of your posts are deceiving. That, or you are a lazy and sloppy journalist. When there is a story like this, and you focus on the nut case having to take his bible off the desk. Wow.
From a real journalist at the Mount Vernon News: The News received a fax Tuesday from attorney Jessica Philemond of the law firm Isaac, Brant, Ledman & Teetor, who issued a statement from her clients, who wished to remain anonymous for fear of their child being retaliated against.
The fax stated, “We are religious people, but we were offended when Mr. Freshwater burned a cross onto the arm of our child. This was done in science class in December 2007, where an electric shock machine was used to burn our child. The burn was severe enough that our child awoke that night with severe pain, and the cross remained there for several weeks. … We have tried to keep this a private matter and hesitate to tell the whole story to the media for fear that we will be retaliated against.”
THIS is the kind of behavior that Joel is defending. Joel, let’s hear you denounce this man now and admit that your pomo sniveling about my mean old attitude was just projection? You still want to privilege stupidity in the public classroom? This is acceptable behavior? You think that sick old pervert teachers burning crosses in the delicate young flesh of children is a constitutional freedom?
I’d love to hear your response to this please sir.
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here are also allegations that Freshwater has conducted prayers and engaged in a healing session in his capacity as as monitor for a Fellowship of Christian Athletes meeting. According to Short, the FCA is a non-school sponsored religious club and federal law prohibits school employees from actively participating. Middle school principal Bill White has been directed to remove Freshwater as a monitor to the club.
According to Short, Freshwater has acknowledged he may have engaged inappropriately as a participant rather than a monitor during FCA meetings.
While the independent investigation is being conducted, an administrator will be in the classroom with Freshwater, monitoring his activities to ensure board policy is followed and students’ rights are protected.
And yet when this clown is removed from his post and prevented from threatening impressionable children with his boisterous god soaked foaming at the mouth, some jerk will claim he has been Expelled. Wait for it…. Oh yeah. The obliviot Mickey McLean poisoned that well in the opening post.
Ouch! Own Goal. that has got to hurt. rub some dirt on it son, if you are going to be dumb you have got to be tough.
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You know I was thinking about it, it could be that you will maintain your egalitarian stance and say this is OK as long as we let muslims burn scimitars onto children, and hindus the red dot thingy, and wizards and witches burn purple moons and orange stars and green clovers onto kids. If so then I might agree with you just for kicks.
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Turn this around and ask yourself, what would an “establishment” of religion look like? If true, if the school was attempting to establish Christianity as the true religion, what would that look like?
1. All teachers, not just this one teacher, would be required to display the Ten Commandments on the door.
2. The displays would be mandated expressions of religious belief, not personal expressions of faith.
3. Knowledge of the tenets of faith would affect the students grade.
4. Other expressions of faith would be present and be a matter of school policy, such as Chapel attendance, assembly with guest speakers from the religious establishment, New and Old Testament courses as part of the core curriculum.
5. The school would hire clergy as official staff.
6. The school would hold religious services on Sunday.
7. The school would offer awards of merit to those students who performed outreach, evangelism, and/or good works.
When I think about what it would take for a school to actually establish a religion, I see that a single teacher with a Bible on his desk, and/or posters on the wall, misses the mark completely. It is obvious to the thoughtful among us that this man is not attempting to establish a religion.
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Wow Roger, way for you to completely fail to understand what has happened here.
we are not talking about establishment, we are talking about a nut case that should not be in front of kids. and a willfully acknowledged intentional law breaker. and you want to change the subject.
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Erasmus Harvey, thanks for find the rest … of the story.
I suspected there was probably more to this than Mickey shared (whether Mickey didn’t know himself, or knew and chose to soft-pedal, I don’t know.) This is just another version of the ol’ “The mean police arrested a man just for praying!” (unsaid: Praying while kneeling in a busy street and refusing repeated police orders to move.)
Case closed, eh Roger?
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Steve that is typical WOW distortion and identity politic sandbagging. I don’t expect Joel to acknowledge this, but Roger do you feel misled by Mickey’s post? do you think it was intentionally misleading, or just sloppy work?
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“One of the complaints was that Freshwater used an electrostatic device to burn crosses onto students’ arms.”
This guy must be off his meds!
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Y’know what, guys, if this cross-burning stuff is true, the school wouldn’t simply be saying, “Remove the Bible from your desk and everything else is OK.” He’d be fired, and it wouldn’t have anything to do with freedom of religion–nor would ANY of us defend him, and you know that. So, jumping to conclusions that this is true, and that Harrison knew about this part of it before posting just part of the story, is grossly unfair to Harrison. (And I doubt seriously that parents would have something like this happen to their kid and not report it while the burn still showed. They’re just coming forward now? Unless they have good photos, I’m skeptical.)
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Cheryl: Read the article Erasmus linked to in #76. It turns out, the idea that it’s just about the Bible on the desk comes from the teacher himself, who negelected to mention that he was ALSO under investigation for burning a cross on a student’s arm and other issues.
No, the parents in that case are NOT “just coming forward now.” The school superintendent states in the article Erasmus found that the burning incident is also one of the allegations being investigated. The teacher lied when he said all this fuss was just because he wanted to have a Bible on his desk.
So, assuming the allegations are true (and I’m happy to reserve judgment until we know), this is not just a mild-mannered inoffensive man of faith being persecuted for something inocuous, as we were supposed to think.
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But I’m sure Joel Mark will be along soon to tell us that if we object to teachers burning images of crosses into students’ flesh, it’s just because we’re hostile to Christianity.
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Cheryl, first of all it is Mickey (this time) that is doing the sloppy work. The school has known about this for a while (read the article, why don’t you?). Mickey says it is all about religious persecution, and he might be right, with the roles reversed.
Short declined to comment as to why the allegations against Freshwater were not made public sooner. Calls to the attorney for further comments were not returned as of press time.
Cheryl, the article says the parents claim that they were reluctant to raise this issue publicly since they feared retaliation from the Christian community. Whether or not they conform to your account of what a Christian is, it is clear that people calling themselves christians are capable of violent retribution.
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Maybe the title for this thread should have been:
Teacher Told to Quit Burning Crosses into Student’s Arms!
This puts a whole new spin on the notion of “establishment” of religion.
“What does it mean when you’re branded?”
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Erasmus: Thank you for posting the link to the article from today’s Mount Vernon newspaper. It does shed more light on the story than was first reported in the Columbus and Mount Vernon papers earlier in the week when I initially posted this.
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No Problem Mickey, and I’m glad to hear that you weren’t aware of these allegations when posting the first article (I wasn’t either). Thanks for acknowledging it.
Care to re analyze the situation? Seems much hairier than ‘Teacher told to remove Bible from classroom’. Surely we have some common ground (not sure that Joel will concede this however).
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So I hope my rhetorical swords only cleaved the cords of our shared ignorance regarding the truth of the matter and left no bruises upon the tender protected flesh of unstated assumptions.
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He does seem extreme, and if it turns out that he is that extreme, it makes it harder for other, not-so-extreme Christians to be Christians in the public schools and the workplace. Because these new findings don’t change the fact that public school administrators do tend to overreact in mcuh less extreme situations.
After blogging for over three years, I’ve come to expect “rhetorical swords.” One of the hazards of blogging is depending on and linking to third-party sources. You hope they have done their due diligence, but they don’t always.
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“it makes it harder for other, not-so-extreme Christians to be Christians in the public schools”
Is it really that hard??? I mean, it may be hard in the sense that practicing any separatist religion in a secular world is hard. Being “in” and not “of” is always hard, of course. But I just don’t see public education putting up threatening signals to individuals, generally, at all. I think a poll of K-12 educators in public school would reveal the majority of them in church on Sunday and a lot of them chatting about it in the faculty lunchroom! Heck that happens here at a University!
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This new revelation does not effect anything I said in post 79.
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Also, don’t be so quick to believe allegations until after the investigation is over.
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#94 Your list may be requirements for “establish”ing a Christian school, but all that’s needed to violate the “establishment” clause of the Constitution is to fall afoul of a Lemon prong, i.e., one of:
1. The [teacher's] action must have a secular purpose
2. The [teacher's] action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion
3. The [teacher's] action must not result in an “excessive entanglement” with religion.
If a Bible on the desk satisfies those, it’s fine, and I can’t imagine being asked to remove it! Clearly this guy’s “Desk Bible” (and branding and posters and teaching creationism and teaching the Bible and conducting prayers and healing sessions) violates the Lemon test repeatedly in multiple ways!!
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#95 right – that’s why I didn’t believe the initial allegations that this school district is improperly infringing on this guy’s religion! Why did you?
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so Mickey … how about updating your original post to reflect the new information? Otherwise, it’ll still look like the poor meek Christian is being arbitrarily persecuted, to anyone who doesn’t read the comments all the way down.
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I read the article. The allegation still sounds fishy. First, the anonymous parents claim to be Christians themselves, but fear reprisals from Christians. Sorry, Christians don’t go around attacking people because their kids got hurt, and it seems a little unlikely to be more afraid of potential reprisals than actual injury from this teacher, if the allegations were true.
Second, teachers get pulled out of the classroom for much less serious offenses. My guess is the administration doesn’t believe the claim (meaning there’s no proof and/or the parents in question aren’t trustworthy).
Third, the parents seem to indicate the teacher did this to several students. So why is there only one complaint, long after the fact, and why are the students supporting the teacher? And again, if it happened to several students, someone would have come forward (even belatedly) with enough proof to get him out of the classroom.
We won’t know all the facts for a while yet, but it does sound fishy to me. Again, if this is true, it’s repulsive. But I’d guess (based only on this article) that it’s not true.
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cheryl please read the link in #87. you might rethink your ad hoc assertion that “Christians don’t go around attacking people because their kids got hurt, and it seems a little unlikely to be more afraid of potential reprisals than actual injury from this teacher, if the allegations were true.”
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In both history and in my experience, “Christians” have demonstrated their willingness to attack each other time and again, so I’m mystified by your claims, Cheryl!
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CherylD, you’re assuming that the complaint was just now made and is the only one of its kind.
The school superintendent quoted in the article implies that the complaint was made some time ago and is part of what the teacher is being investigated for; and the article says it is among the allegations against him, which suggests there might be more.
I agree on reserving judgment until all the facts are in, so let’s not assume he’s guilty. But let’s not rush to his defense just yet either, for the same reason.
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Again.
identity politics.
stubborn unwillingness to accept uncomfortable truths.
unprincipled objections to common courtesies.
end justifies the mean considerations.
nothing new here. i really wish joel had the integrity to admit he was just defending this clown because they harbor similar desires about cramming the baby jesus down everyones throat.
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Steve G.,
I’m not rushing to his defense; I pointed out clearly that if he has done such things, then he should be fired. I also listed my reasons for skepticism that he had indeed done such things–and those reasons still stand.
I don’t know when the complaint was made, or whether it was the only one of its kind. But if there were numerous complaints, or even credible complaints, why are the students on his side, and why hasn’t the community arisen in protest and insisted he be fired or at least taken out of the classroom? The facts as presented in the article suggest a witch hunt by one pair of parents, not anything more. If there’s good reason to believe it’s more, then the administration may be negligent here. Again, teachers who are doing such things do not stay in classrooms these days.
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wow. you are good at that reading into something what you need to hear sort of thing. ahh well discovery is a process.
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When I was young, I’m pretty positive this kind of thing wouldn’t have mattered. Teachers have personalities too, and I don’t think students should be shielded from everthing that a teacher believes. As long as a teacher isn’t proslytizing in the classroom (whatever his/her religion is) or putting students down based on his beliefs or their beliefs, keeping your book of faith or philosophy on your desk should be fine.
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CSLEWISLOVER:
Please see post #76 and read the article linked from it. This teacher is under investigation for quite a bit more than just keeping his Bible on his desk.
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I can’t imagine anyone involved in this discussion will actually believe me, but Mr. Freshwater was my 8th grade science teacher. I’m now a happily atheist physics teacher, to round out the background info. I happened to bump into this story when I was in town and checked around to see where it was headed.
In short, the guy has always gone too far with religion in the classroom. If the objection were only that he refused to remove his personal Bible from his desk, then I’d be on his side, but for years he has been reprimanded for straying from the curriculum, mostly regarding evolution, but I can remember some ‘Fractured Fairytale’ versions of the geological history of the world and such.
I have a hard time believing the branding aspect of the story, particularly with no pictures. As a physics teacher, my students and I commonly play with the types of ‘electrostatic devices’ that he would have access to, and unless someone sat willingly for at least a minute while in extreme pain, I can’t imagine how one of them would have burned a recognizeable pattern into anyone. If it got hot and literally burned the kid, that would be another story, and I wouldn’t be surprised. The marks that these instruments can leave (it takes a pretty hardcore shockaholic to get any sort of mark, and a good teacher wouldn’t allow the kids that kind of access in the first place) DO last a long time. I’ve gotten burns from them on my knuckles from demonstrating the effects repeatedly throughout the day, but those are largely small bumps of dead skin, not reddened or blistered in any way. If there is confirmation of the burning, he ought to be cooling his heels in a jail cell right now…
As far as the confusion with how students could possibly support him if he’s such a nut job, here’s how it works:
1. The guy is likeable. He really and truly is. He looks like the Brawny paper towel guy, just a really rugged manly-man type. He’s a former smoke-jumper, has traveled the world, and tells some pretty good stories in class. His class isn’t boring and kids (generally) have fun.
2. If you’ve never lived in a small town in the midwest, you have absolutely no idea how pervasive religion is. Not necessarily Christianity specifically (there are a smattering of Jewish families around Mt. Vernon who are treated perfectly well, as far as I ever saw) but religion in general. Telling someone you are an atheist is nearly as complicated socially as telling someone you’re gay. I had people stop talking to me, received threats from kids, all sorts of very non-Christian behavior, in addition to the near-constant proselytization that followed. The simple fact that the allegations involved religion is enough for a significant number of people to support him, regardless of the specifics.
3. Kids will do ANYTHING to get out of class.
4. (Regarding the well-founded fears of retaliation expressed by the parents of the child in question.) It is entirely believable that some folks who consider themselves Christian but are such in name only would get violent over this. Vandalism would be expected at the least. Only a truly deluded person would believe that a simple statement of following a set of religious beliefs has any real connection with a person’s behavior. This isn’t the sort of place where an Evolve fish keeps his legs for more than a day…
Those are my 2.5 cents, enjoy.
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Oh yeah, and the specifics of the story:
The original complaint was made by the parents back in early December, 2007. Allegedly more than one kid was burned. Nothing was done, religion in the classroom continued, they got a lawyer, and lo’ and behold, the school system moved to do something. They came in, told him to remove religious items from the room yet again, and he did so with the exception of the his bible. He is still teaching and an administrator is in the room at all times to observe until the case is settled. The parents aren’t trying to get any money from the school district or teacher and have stated that they don’t intend to press charges against the school or Freshwater.
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sneakypete thanks for showing up and sharing your story.
I just want to point out that you have succintly described the bulk of the WoW echo chamber here. To wit
The simple fact that the allegations involved religion is enough for a significant number of people to support him, regardless of the specifics.
this is the raison de etre for the joels of the world.
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#108/109 – UGH! This guy deserves a “666″ tattoo on the forehead.
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p.s. ok – “bong” me …
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