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	<title>Comments on: Teacher told to remove Bible from classroom</title>
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		<title>By: Spinoza</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-296817</link>
		<dc:creator>Spinoza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>p.s. ok - &quot;bong&quot; me ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s. ok &#8211; &#8220;bong&#8221; me &#8230;
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		<title>By: Spinoza</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-296814</link>
		<dc:creator>Spinoza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>#108/109 - UGH! This guy deserves a &quot;666&quot; tattoo on the forehead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#108/109 &#8211; UGH! This guy deserves a &#8220;666&#8243; tattoo on the forehead.
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		<title>By: Erasmus</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-296580</link>
		<dc:creator>Erasmus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>sneakypete thanks for showing up and sharing your story.

I just want to point out that you have succintly described the bulk of the WoW echo chamber here.  To wit

&lt;i&gt;The simple fact that the allegations involved religion is enough for a significant number of people to support him, regardless of the specifics.&lt;/i&gt;

this is the raison de etre for the joels of the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sneakypete thanks for showing up and sharing your story.</p>
<p>I just want to point out that you have succintly described the bulk of the WoW echo chamber here.  To wit</p>
<p><i>The simple fact that the allegations involved religion is enough for a significant number of people to support him, regardless of the specifics.</i></p>
<p>this is the raison de etre for the joels of the world.
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		<title>By: SneakyPete</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-296309</link>
		<dc:creator>SneakyPete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 03:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Oh yeah, and the specifics of the story:
The original complaint was made by the parents back in early December, 2007.  Allegedly more than one kid was burned.  Nothing was done, religion in the classroom continued, they got a lawyer, and lo&#039; and behold, the school system moved to do something.  They came in, told him to remove religious items from the room yet again, and he did so with the exception of the his bible.  He is still teaching and an administrator is in the room at all times to observe until the case is settled.  The parents aren&#039;t trying to get any money from the school district or teacher and have stated that they don&#039;t intend to press charges against the school or Freshwater.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yeah, and the specifics of the story:<br />
The original complaint was made by the parents back in early December, 2007.  Allegedly more than one kid was burned.  Nothing was done, religion in the classroom continued, they got a lawyer, and lo&#8217; and behold, the school system moved to do something.  They came in, told him to remove religious items from the room yet again, and he did so with the exception of the his bible.  He is still teaching and an administrator is in the room at all times to observe until the case is settled.  The parents aren&#8217;t trying to get any money from the school district or teacher and have stated that they don&#8217;t intend to press charges against the school or Freshwater.
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		<title>By: SneakyPete</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-296305</link>
		<dc:creator>SneakyPete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 03:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I can&#039;t imagine anyone involved in this discussion will actually believe me, but Mr. Freshwater was my 8th grade science teacher.  I&#039;m now a happily atheist physics teacher, to round out the background info.  I happened to bump into this story when I was in town and checked around to see where it was headed.

In short, the guy has always gone too far with religion in the classroom.  If the objection were only that he refused to remove his personal Bible from his desk, then I&#039;d be on his side, but for years he has been reprimanded for straying from the curriculum, mostly regarding evolution, but I can remember some &#039;Fractured Fairytale&#039; versions of the geological history of the world and such.  

I have a hard time believing the branding aspect of the story, particularly with no pictures.  As a physics teacher, my students and I commonly play with the types of &#039;electrostatic devices&#039; that he would have access to, and unless someone sat willingly for at least a minute while in extreme pain, I can&#039;t imagine how one of them would have burned a recognizeable pattern into anyone.  If it got hot and literally burned the kid, that would be another story, and I wouldn&#039;t be surprised.  The marks that these instruments can leave (it takes a pretty hardcore shockaholic to get any sort of mark, and a good teacher wouldn&#039;t allow the kids that kind of access in the first place) DO last a long time.  I&#039;ve gotten burns from them on my knuckles from demonstrating the effects repeatedly throughout the day, but those are largely small bumps of dead skin, not reddened or blistered in any way.  If there is confirmation of the burning, he ought to be cooling his heels in a jail cell right now...  

As far as the confusion with how students could possibly support him if he&#039;s such a nut job, here&#039;s how it works:
1. The guy is likeable.  He really and truly is.  He looks like the Brawny paper towel guy, just a really rugged manly-man type.  He&#039;s a former smoke-jumper, has traveled the world, and tells some pretty good stories in class.  His class isn&#039;t boring and kids (generally) have fun.
2. If you&#039;ve never lived in a small town in the midwest, you have absolutely no idea how pervasive religion is.  Not necessarily Christianity specifically (there are a smattering of Jewish families around Mt. Vernon who are treated perfectly well, as far as I ever saw) but religion in general.  Telling someone you are an atheist is nearly as complicated socially as telling someone you&#039;re gay.  I had people stop talking to me, received threats from kids, all sorts of very non-Christian behavior, in addition to the near-constant proselytization that followed.  The simple fact that the allegations involved religion is enough for a significant number of people to support him, regardless of the specifics.
3. Kids will do ANYTHING to get out of class.
4. (Regarding the well-founded fears of retaliation expressed by the parents of the child in question.)  It is entirely believable that some folks who consider themselves Christian but are such in name only would get violent over this.  Vandalism would be expected at the least.  Only a truly deluded person would believe that a simple statement of following a set of religious beliefs has any real connection with a person&#039;s behavior.  This isn&#039;t the sort of place where an Evolve fish keeps his legs for more than a day...

Those are my 2.5 cents, enjoy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t imagine anyone involved in this discussion will actually believe me, but Mr. Freshwater was my 8th grade science teacher.  I&#8217;m now a happily atheist physics teacher, to round out the background info.  I happened to bump into this story when I was in town and checked around to see where it was headed.</p>
<p>In short, the guy has always gone too far with religion in the classroom.  If the objection were only that he refused to remove his personal Bible from his desk, then I&#8217;d be on his side, but for years he has been reprimanded for straying from the curriculum, mostly regarding evolution, but I can remember some &#8216;Fractured Fairytale&#8217; versions of the geological history of the world and such.  </p>
<p>I have a hard time believing the branding aspect of the story, particularly with no pictures.  As a physics teacher, my students and I commonly play with the types of &#8216;electrostatic devices&#8217; that he would have access to, and unless someone sat willingly for at least a minute while in extreme pain, I can&#8217;t imagine how one of them would have burned a recognizeable pattern into anyone.  If it got hot and literally burned the kid, that would be another story, and I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised.  The marks that these instruments can leave (it takes a pretty hardcore shockaholic to get any sort of mark, and a good teacher wouldn&#8217;t allow the kids that kind of access in the first place) DO last a long time.  I&#8217;ve gotten burns from them on my knuckles from demonstrating the effects repeatedly throughout the day, but those are largely small bumps of dead skin, not reddened or blistered in any way.  If there is confirmation of the burning, he ought to be cooling his heels in a jail cell right now&#8230;  </p>
<p>As far as the confusion with how students could possibly support him if he&#8217;s such a nut job, here&#8217;s how it works:<br />
1. The guy is likeable.  He really and truly is.  He looks like the Brawny paper towel guy, just a really rugged manly-man type.  He&#8217;s a former smoke-jumper, has traveled the world, and tells some pretty good stories in class.  His class isn&#8217;t boring and kids (generally) have fun.<br />
2. If you&#8217;ve never lived in a small town in the midwest, you have absolutely no idea how pervasive religion is.  Not necessarily Christianity specifically (there are a smattering of Jewish families around Mt. Vernon who are treated perfectly well, as far as I ever saw) but religion in general.  Telling someone you are an atheist is nearly as complicated socially as telling someone you&#8217;re gay.  I had people stop talking to me, received threats from kids, all sorts of very non-Christian behavior, in addition to the near-constant proselytization that followed.  The simple fact that the allegations involved religion is enough for a significant number of people to support him, regardless of the specifics.<br />
3. Kids will do ANYTHING to get out of class.<br />
4. (Regarding the well-founded fears of retaliation expressed by the parents of the child in question.)  It is entirely believable that some folks who consider themselves Christian but are such in name only would get violent over this.  Vandalism would be expected at the least.  Only a truly deluded person would believe that a simple statement of following a set of religious beliefs has any real connection with a person&#8217;s behavior.  This isn&#8217;t the sort of place where an Evolve fish keeps his legs for more than a day&#8230;</p>
<p>Those are my 2.5 cents, enjoy.
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-296239</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 22:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>CSLEWISLOVER:

Please see post #76 and read the article linked from it. This teacher is under investigation for quite a bit more than just keeping his Bible on his desk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CSLEWISLOVER:</p>
<p>Please see post #76 and read the article linked from it. This teacher is under investigation for quite a bit more than just keeping his Bible on his desk.
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		<title>By: cslewislover</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-296202</link>
		<dc:creator>cslewislover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>When I was young, I&#039;m pretty positive this kind of thing wouldn&#039;t have mattered.  Teachers have personalities too, and I don&#039;t think students should be shielded from everthing that a teacher believes.  As long as a teacher isn&#039;t proslytizing in the classroom (whatever his/her religion is) or putting students down based on his beliefs or their beliefs, keeping your book of faith or philosophy on your desk should be fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was young, I&#8217;m pretty positive this kind of thing wouldn&#8217;t have mattered.  Teachers have personalities too, and I don&#8217;t think students should be shielded from everthing that a teacher believes.  As long as a teacher isn&#8217;t proslytizing in the classroom (whatever his/her religion is) or putting students down based on his beliefs or their beliefs, keeping your book of faith or philosophy on your desk should be fine.
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		<title>By: Erasmus</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-296023</link>
		<dc:creator>Erasmus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>wow.  you are good at that reading into something what you need to hear sort of thing.  ahh well discovery is a process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow.  you are good at that reading into something what you need to hear sort of thing.  ahh well discovery is a process.
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		<title>By: Cheryl D.</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-295880</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Steve G.,

I&#039;m not rushing to his defense; I pointed out clearly that if he has done such things, then he should be fired. I also listed my reasons for skepticism that he had indeed done such things--and those reasons still stand.

I don&#039;t know when the complaint was made, or whether it was the only one of its kind. But if there were numerous complaints, or even credible complaints, why are the students on his side, and why hasn&#039;t the community arisen in protest and insisted he be fired or at least taken out of the classroom? The facts as presented in the article suggest a witch hunt by one pair of parents, not anything more. If there&#039;s good reason to believe it&#039;s more, then the administration may be negligent here. Again, teachers who are doing such things do not stay in classrooms these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve G.,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not rushing to his defense; I pointed out clearly that if he has done such things, then he should be fired. I also listed my reasons for skepticism that he had indeed done such things&#8211;and those reasons still stand.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know when the complaint was made, or whether it was the only one of its kind. But if there were numerous complaints, or even credible complaints, why are the students on his side, and why hasn&#8217;t the community arisen in protest and insisted he be fired or at least taken out of the classroom? The facts as presented in the article suggest a witch hunt by one pair of parents, not anything more. If there&#8217;s good reason to believe it&#8217;s more, then the administration may be negligent here. Again, teachers who are doing such things do not stay in classrooms these days.
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		<title>By: Erasmus</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/04/21/teacher-told-to-remove-bible-from-classroom/comment-page-3/#comment-295680</link>
		<dc:creator>Erasmus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 05:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Again.

identity politics.

stubborn unwillingness to accept uncomfortable truths.

unprincipled objections to common courtesies.

end justifies the mean considerations.

nothing new here.  i really wish joel had the integrity to admit he was just defending this clown because they harbor similar desires about cramming the baby jesus down everyones throat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again.</p>
<p>identity politics.</p>
<p>stubborn unwillingness to accept uncomfortable truths.</p>
<p>unprincipled objections to common courtesies.</p>
<p>end justifies the mean considerations.</p>
<p>nothing new here.  i really wish joel had the integrity to admit he was just defending this clown because they harbor similar desires about cramming the baby jesus down everyones throat.
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