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	<title>Comments on: Religion: A quiver full of contraception</title>
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		<title>By: GL</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-301754</link>
		<dc:creator>GL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 00:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&gt;&gt;&gt;Regarding large families, what would you say about a pastor who says that a vasectomy or contraception is equivalent to abortion. I know of such a church.&lt;&lt;&lt;

Did you have in mind pastors such as these?

&quot;Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. . . . Indeed, it is something worse than murder, and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws? . . . Yet such turpitude . . . the matter still seems indifferent to many men--even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks&quot; (John Chrysostom, &lt;i&gt;Homilies on Romans&lt;/i&gt; 24).

&quot;Onan must have been a malicious and incorrigible scoundrel. [Genesis 38:9, 10]. This is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, Yes a Sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates; and, when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime to produce semen and excite the woman, and to frustrate her at that very moment ... He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him...&quot;  (Luther, Martin &lt;i&gt;Luthers Works&lt;/i&gt;, Volume Seven)

&quot;Besides [Onan] ... preferred his semen to putrify on the ground, rather than to beget a son in his brother&#039;s name.... It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is double horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his family, and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. ... Moreover he thus has, as much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through aids, (contraception) then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime. Onan was guilty of a similar crime, by defiling the earth with his seed, ....&quot; (Calvin, John &lt;i&gt;Commentary on Genesis&lt;/i&gt;)

&quot;Onan, though he consented to marry the widow, yet to the great abuse of his own body, of the wife he had married, ... he refused to raise up seed unto his brother. Those sins that dishonour the body are very displeasing to God, and the evidence of vile actions. Observe, the thing which he did displeased the Lord--And it is to be feared, thousands, especially of single persons, by this very thing, still displease the Lord, and destroy their own souls.&quot; (Wesley, John &lt;i&gt;Commentary on Genesis&lt;/i&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;Regarding large families, what would you say about a pastor who says that a vasectomy or contraception is equivalent to abortion. I know of such a church.&lt;&lt;&lt;</p>
<p>Did you have in mind pastors such as these?</p>
<p>&#8220;Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. . . . Indeed, it is something worse than murder, and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws? . . . Yet such turpitude . . . the matter still seems indifferent to many men&#8211;even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks&#8221; (John Chrysostom, <i>Homilies on Romans</i> 24).</p>
<p>&#8220;Onan must have been a malicious and incorrigible scoundrel. [Genesis 38:9, 10]. This is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, Yes a Sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates; and, when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime to produce semen and excite the woman, and to frustrate her at that very moment &#8230; He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him&#8230;&#8221;  (Luther, Martin <i>Luthers Works</i>, Volume Seven)</p>
<p>&#8220;Besides [Onan] &#8230; preferred his semen to putrify on the ground, rather than to beget a son in his brother&#8217;s name&#8230;. It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is double horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his family, and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. &#8230; Moreover he thus has, as much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through aids, (contraception) then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime. Onan was guilty of a similar crime, by defiling the earth with his seed, &#8230;.&#8221; (Calvin, John <i>Commentary on Genesis</i>)</p>
<p>&#8220;Onan, though he consented to marry the widow, yet to the great abuse of his own body, of the wife he had married, &#8230; he refused to raise up seed unto his brother. Those sins that dishonour the body are very displeasing to God, and the evidence of vile actions. Observe, the thing which he did displeased the Lord&#8211;And it is to be feared, thousands, especially of single persons, by this very thing, still displease the Lord, and destroy their own souls.&#8221; (Wesley, John <i>Commentary on Genesis</i>)
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		<title>By: Ree</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-299402</link>
		<dc:creator>Ree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 05:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Anlir,

Is it true that truth varies from person to person or is that just your perception of truth?  

People can&#039;t agree on the correct epistemology, so that falsify yours?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anlir,</p>
<p>Is it true that truth varies from person to person or is that just your perception of truth?  </p>
<p>People can&#8217;t agree on the correct epistemology, so that falsify yours?
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-299337</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 01:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;no matter what excuses people might make about &#8220;all the denominations disagree, so maybe they&#8217;re all wrong.&#8221; God won&#8217;t accept that one.&lt;/i&gt;

I didn&#039;t say that. I said the existence of the disagreements, among people of equal faith and devotion, shows that there is ample room for differing interpretations of the supposedly &quot;clear&quot; revelation. 

You take the position that &quot;Of course, my interpretation is the right one, because it&#039;s just so clear,&quot; which is typical of dogmatic people, but settles nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>no matter what excuses people might make about &#8220;all the denominations disagree, so maybe they&#8217;re all wrong.&#8221; God won&#8217;t accept that one.</i></p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t say that. I said the existence of the disagreements, among people of equal faith and devotion, shows that there is ample room for differing interpretations of the supposedly &#8220;clear&#8221; revelation. </p>
<p>You take the position that &#8220;Of course, my interpretation is the right one, because it&#8217;s just so clear,&#8221; which is typical of dogmatic people, but settles nothing.
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-299335</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 01:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nah. The idea that the Bible itself is &quot;the Word of God&quot; in whole, and not to be doubted, is just an article of faith. It&#039;s not even one the Bible demands. Many denominations, and many inidividual Christians, are quite comfortable taking it as something less than the infallible dictated words of God you think it is. 

Your argument depends on first establishing that you believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God, and then to dismiss any dissenting view as &quot;simple unbelief.&quot; 

But your argument is built on air. Take away the assumption -- and it &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; an assumption -- of inerrancy (and literalism) and you have no grounds to assert your view to be right and others wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nah. The idea that the Bible itself is &#8220;the Word of God&#8221; in whole, and not to be doubted, is just an article of faith. It&#8217;s not even one the Bible demands. Many denominations, and many inidividual Christians, are quite comfortable taking it as something less than the infallible dictated words of God you think it is. </p>
<p>Your argument depends on first establishing that you believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God, and then to dismiss any dissenting view as &#8220;simple unbelief.&#8221; </p>
<p>But your argument is built on air. Take away the assumption &#8212; and it <i>is</i> an assumption &#8212; of inerrancy (and literalism) and you have no grounds to assert your view to be right and others wrong.
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		<title>By: Cheryl D.</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-299324</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 01:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>SteveG, God is clear enough. People disagree on minor points out of honest differences, and on major points because of refusal to believe God&#039;s Word. 

It&#039;s really not ambiguous, for example, that Jesus is God, or that salvation comes by faith and not by works. It&#039;s perfectly OK to disagree on minor points. But refusing to believe the Bible on major points is simple unbelief, no matter what excuses people might make about &quot;all the denominations disagree, so maybe they&#039;re all wrong.&quot; God won&#039;t accept that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SteveG, God is clear enough. People disagree on minor points out of honest differences, and on major points because of refusal to believe God&#8217;s Word. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s really not ambiguous, for example, that Jesus is God, or that salvation comes by faith and not by works. It&#8217;s perfectly OK to disagree on minor points. But refusing to believe the Bible on major points is simple unbelief, no matter what excuses people might make about &#8220;all the denominations disagree, so maybe they&#8217;re all wrong.&#8221; God won&#8217;t accept that one.
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-299314</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 00:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Cheryl: The simple fact that Christianity has divided itself into hundreds, if not thousands, of denominations, and they hold some pretty serious differences of opinion over doctrine and praxis, is proof that the supposed clear revelation you speak of is anything but.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheryl: The simple fact that Christianity has divided itself into hundreds, if not thousands, of denominations, and they hold some pretty serious differences of opinion over doctrine and praxis, is proof that the supposed clear revelation you speak of is anything but.
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		<title>By: Cheryl D.</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-299303</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 00:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Anlir,

When you meet God, He won&#039;t treat your questions as cute. He gave us His Word; we can ask and answer silly questions all day, but He has spoken clearly.  He has also spoken through nature, and spoken very clearly through Jesus. As an educated American who has read the Bible and hung out on here, and interacted with Christians in other settings, your questions don&#039;t hide the fact that you&#039;ve been clearly exposed to the truth of God&#039;s Word. God doesn&#039;t owe you your own private revelation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anlir,</p>
<p>When you meet God, He won&#8217;t treat your questions as cute. He gave us His Word; we can ask and answer silly questions all day, but He has spoken clearly.  He has also spoken through nature, and spoken very clearly through Jesus. As an educated American who has read the Bible and hung out on here, and interacted with Christians in other settings, your questions don&#8217;t hide the fact that you&#8217;ve been clearly exposed to the truth of God&#8217;s Word. God doesn&#8217;t owe you your own private revelation.
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		<title>By: kimberly</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-299250</link>
		<dc:creator>kimberly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 21:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ANLIR: 
Let&#039;s say it this way instead: How we PERCEIVE truth is different for every individual; the truth itself remains the same across the board--throughout time and for each person. 

Truth is an external thing; it is facts and definitive statements, no matter how difficult to understand, and therefore it does not vary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ANLIR:<br />
Let&#8217;s say it this way instead: How we PERCEIVE truth is different for every individual; the truth itself remains the same across the board&#8211;throughout time and for each person. </p>
<p>Truth is an external thing; it is facts and definitive statements, no matter how difficult to understand, and therefore it does not vary.
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		<title>By: Anlir</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-299214</link>
		<dc:creator>Anlir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 20:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, Ree, human beings can&#039;t even agree on a definition of God, much less the Bible and all the other stuff.  The world is far bigger and complex than just you and the people around you, who all might think and believe a certain way.  Truth is an individual thing and certainly fallible.  What may be true for you will be different for another person.

If God infallibly reveals truth, to whom does She reveal it?  How are we to decide which human beings have received the infallible truth?  What if two or more people claim to have received the infallible truth and come to opposite ideas or conclusions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Ree, human beings can&#8217;t even agree on a definition of God, much less the Bible and all the other stuff.  The world is far bigger and complex than just you and the people around you, who all might think and believe a certain way.  Truth is an individual thing and certainly fallible.  What may be true for you will be different for another person.</p>
<p>If God infallibly reveals truth, to whom does She reveal it?  How are we to decide which human beings have received the infallible truth?  What if two or more people claim to have received the infallible truth and come to opposite ideas or conclusions?
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		<title>By: Ree</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/05/03/religion-a-quiver-full-of-contraception/comment-page-2/#comment-298983</link>
		<dc:creator>Ree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 04:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>SteveG,

Questioning the clarity or the interpretation of a given Scripture teaching may or may not be justified, depending on the underlying heart condition of the one doing the questioning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SteveG,</p>
<p>Questioning the clarity or the interpretation of a given Scripture teaching may or may not be justified, depending on the underlying heart condition of the one doing the questioning.
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