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It’s Monday!
Today’s quote is from a movie: “I never realize how much I like being home unless I’ve been somewhere really different for a while.”
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back to top51 Comments to “Whirled Views 5.5”
Juno??? movie quote
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Whoever said it, it’s true. I never realized how much I loved Ohio until I came to France.
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“The home is the bottom line of life, the anvil upon which attitudes and convictions are hammered out. [It is]… the single most influential force in our earthly existence. No price tag can adequately reflect its value. No gauge can measure its ultimate influence … for good or ill. It is at home, among family members that we come to terms with circumstances. It is here life makes up its mind.”
– Chuck Swindoll
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“I think my home is just heaven’s reflection, as long as my home’s here with you.” Lyrics by Michael Card from a beautiful love song on the “Poiema” album.
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“Home is the place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in.”
Robert Frost, The Death of the Hired Man
Or my 2-year-old’s favorite, from Mother Goose: “Home again, home again, jiggety-jog.”
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The Death of the Hired Man is one of the best, and most beautiful, expressions of what home can be like I’ve ever read, and it’s one of my favorite Robert Frost poems.
Thanks for the reminder, MMacMurray
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Sylvie–LOL!
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Oh Sylie, I have a friend in Ohio. Do you know Mike?
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Stop the Presses!
Global Warming may stop until year 2015:
Global Warming stops until 2015
How much more hype will we have to put up with? I hope the truth will out eventually. And now the founder of Weather.com is heading up a movement to sue Al Gore and his Big Weather cabal…
I love it.
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Has everybody gone out to enjoy the weather today? Only nine comments on a WV thread by 3:50 EDT.
I am going to guess the movie quote is from “Finding Nemo” only because I cannot think o9f anything else.
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KBells – I know a few.
Adios – ridiculous isn’t it? I think it’s because my family and church are there. Otherwise there’s not much room for comparison.
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Joe B: How about an iced coffee today–or maybe some sweetened iced tea? It seems a bit warm (at least here in PA) for a hot, cup of coffee.
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I read in The Washington Times that the fad that started in the seventies of having fathers in the delivery room is a bad idea.
“… top obstetrician Michel Odent declared that men should never be at the birth of their child. (sic)
He argued that it was psychologically damaging for a woman in labor to be stressed by her husband’s presence, and psychologically ruinous to their marriage.”
It’s a long interesting article.
I have never known why a man wanted to be in the room. I took my wife to the hospital and went to work. She was doing her part and I was doing mine. My wife says that when she takes over the country it will be illegal for a husband to be within five miles of a woman having a baby. Actually, I came when delivery started and saw the little rascal before he was cleaned. I wished I hadn’t.
What I really can’t understand is why they would want video pictures. UGGGH!
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Chas,
Wow, someone who agrees with me! I’ve always felt that the delivery room is a place for women: midwives, the woman’s sister(s) and/or mother. I pretty much don’t get anyone to agree with me, though, so I’ve decided if/when I get married and give birth, I’d tell my husband my preference and, as head of the home, it’s his decision. (Sometimes women tell me I’d “feel differently” if I were married. Why? I can’t see how marriage would change my perspective that childbirth is a womanly thing, not a manly thing.)
When my sister was having her first child, I asked if I could be there, and she said something like, “We think this is something private between a husband and wife,” (which made me want to laugh, to be honest–childbirth is neither romantic nor particularly “private”) “–at least the first one. We’ll let you know whether we’d be comfortable having you there for a later baby.” I was allowed to be present at the second birth. I do understand that’s the modern mind-set, but it seemed weird to me. Throughout history, mothers and sisters have been there; it’s husbands who are a recent addition. I don’t want to be there while he’s hunting or cleaning the game; he doesn’t need to be there while I’m delivering a baby.
But Chas, you and I are old-fashioned, and expect some fathers to chime in and say it was the best day of their lives, and mothers to say they can’t even imagine having gone through the experience without their husbands.
These days, sometimes the woman’s father is there, which to me crosses so many boundaries it ought to be illegal.
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It was my husband’s idea; he deserved to be there with me!
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Chas, I looked up the article and saved it. Now if I ever get married and pregnant, I have an actual article to hand to my husband, and not just an “I’d rather not” that he might take personally if he’d always expected to be there.
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My feeling about my husband being present for the births of our babies was that he helped get the baby in there, so he could help get it out!
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Hi Chas,
I read the article you referred to.
Then I read this:
“I’m on digest and haven’t posted on this list in ages, but I read the article on Michel Odent and men at birth and wanted to respond to the comments that have been circulating. Actually, I’d like to provide Michel’s response. I emailed him about it and he emailed back within a hour:
“About the pages in Daily Mail, first I was not the author of the article. It was written by a journalist after an interview on the phone. Also
it is probable that people just read the sensational title. In fact I have
never said that men should not be at the birth of their child.
Warmest regards,
Michel”
I hope that clarifies things. Remember, people are misquoted all the
time in the media.
Warmest regards to all of you!
Raquel Lazar-Paley, Executive Director
Conscious Woman, Inc.
http://www.consciouswoman. org
I thought about Odent’s original article and believe he has some valid points. There are certainly men who are uncomfortable with the birthing process and/or watching their wife in a situation beyond their control. Some husbands’ fears may transfer to their wives and make it a less than ideal situation. I don’t believe Odent is a Christian. He compares women to animals, at least in birthing behavior. I commend Odent’s work in helping women, but I don’t believe he is entirely accurate in the article.
God made a husband one with his wife. I believe, ideally, a husband would want to help, protect and comfort his wife in whatever situation he can. And a wife would want her husband to be there for her. I think the problem is with childbirth itself and people’s perception of it. Many believe it is a dangerous occurrence that can only be managed by a hospital full of nurses and anesthesiologists and obstetricians, etc. A husband may feel quite out of place in an environment that is very rigid in its rules about how the woman should labor and deliver her child. Cultural reasons also may dictate how people see this. I asked my mother if she would have liked my father to have been with her in the delivery room. She said that it wasn’t how things were done so she didn’t really think about it. She told me that she didn’t know that my father decided that he didn’t want her to breastfeed her last baby so he had instructed the staff to give her medication to dry up her milk and to feed the baby formula. She sounded regretful that it happened. She nursed her previous 4 children. I wonder what would have happened if they discussed things prior to the birth and if his presence at the birth would’ve made it possible for her to tell him that she really desired to breastfeed.
If a husband knows nothing about childbirth and both he and his wife are fearful of the birthing process, then I suppose his help may be limited. But should that be the way things ought to be? More and more people are realizing that educating themselves about the childbirth process makes them more equipped to deal with the situation and to have a better outcome. My husband and I were very unhappy with how the hospital managed the birth of our first child. We prayed and read and read and believed we could deliver our own baby in the safety and comfort of our own home. He basically stays in the background, helping me by keeping the birthing pool warm, reading Scripture to me, or just resting on the couch. I know what I’m doing. I just relax in the pool until the baby comes. He knows that I know what I’m doing. That the baby will come when the baby comes. He prays and I pray and voila! baby is born unmanaged in the pool. No one has to catch the baby. He floats up and we welcome a new member into our arms. It’s not even messy when one labors and delivers in a pool. My husband has missed 3 of our births. I have birthed by myself. I don’t need him to help me birth, but when he’s available, I can’t imagine not having him with me.
I may have given you way more information than you’d like to know.
My husband tells me that men have to fight the temptation to resist taking responsibility. I see many households where the man just won’t lead in spiritual matters or any other matter. Two are involved in the making of a child, surely it can’t be too much to ask for the husband to learn what happens to his wife during pregnancy and childbirth and for him to support her in whatever capacity he could? Not everything of the past is good and should be accepted without question. Midwives are definitely a blessing to many women, but they don’t take away the husband’s role as lover, helper and protector. A wife needs her husband to be her advocate, if nothing else, in the delivery room. Husband and wife should be involved in making important decisions regarding what occurs in the birth of their baby.
All this to say that Michel Odent is a man. What does he know? LOL
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I was present at both our children’s birth, and neither my wife or I would have changed that.
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I don’t see how anyone can make this a spiritual event. According to the article, and I believe it because we and all our friends had their children before the seventies; it was a thing that started about then. Midwives preceeded doctors. The husband almost never had a part in the final part of child bearing.
But I have no personal interest in this and don’t care how the discussion is resolved. I just thought it was interesting.
My granddaughter’s husband was not only there, he took pictures. I do not want to see them.
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Cheryl,
Let’s go back to the very beginning. When Eve was about to give birth to Cain, I bet she didn’t know what she was doing. She’s never done it before or seen it done, right? Who else was there to help her but her husband? Why would he not want to help her through this incredible happening? It’s not just her baby. How about Mary and Joseph? Do you think Joseph stepped out of the stable to give her privacy and space so she could do her womanly thing? I don’t picture it like that. I don’t believe he’d leave her so she could deliver by herself and then reappear when it’s all done and she’s cleaned the baby up and she presents baby Jesus to him. A woman does not need anyone to deliver her baby. I have a book called Emergency Childbirth by Gregory White. It says that the best thing anyone can do really is not to interfere with the birthing process. He writes that the baby will basically deliver himself. Many obstetricians are men. If I needed to go to the hospital to have a baby, I would greatly prefer not to have a male doctor. But my husband is not just anyone. He is my closest friend and I depend on him. I haven’t thought about whether childbirth can be ‘romantic’. I think it can be. It’s definitely private for us. It’s just our own family. I don’t believe I’d ever want anyone outside of my husband and children to be present. He’s incredibly romantic when he reads to me and plays the music we’d selected for the birth. He carried me upstairs to our bedroom after the birth of our last baby. Reminds me of when he carried me into our house the first time after we were married. We had candles and essential oils scenting the air. Thinking back, I think it was quite romantic.
It was not romantic at all in the hospital. I truly believe everyone’s ideas about childbirth, the glory and the beauty of it, would change if they birthed at home.
Maybe you could save this for future reference as well? Here is the link to the movie The Business of Being Born. It’s free to watch:
http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=45525
If we really want to be old-fashioned, let’s get out of the hospital and allow a perfectly natural occurrence in occur in a natural setting, in one’s home. Let the husband wander where he may at his own home. Let the midwife be the primary helper. Then she’ll go home and the couple can go right to bed in their own bed, together.
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I was happy to have my husband with me in the delivery room. Of course, the delivery room was also the labor room – we were told that these days they don’t generally move the woman from one room for labor to another for delivery as they used to. If I had a sister or mother or other close female friend who could have been with me, maybe that would have been just as good. But I didn’t. And I would not want to go through all those hours of labor with just a nurse or two around to encourage me. Then since my husband had been with me for those several hours, seeing me when I was puking at one end and my water breaking at the other, holding my hand as I thrashed and moaned – none of that is very romantic – why would I feel the need for him to leave when the baby came out?
There’s lots about marriage that’s far from romantic. After my husband’s surgery four years ago, I had to help with “matters of personal hygiene” – but it meant a lot to him to have it done by someone who loved him rather than by a nurse who did it just because she got paid. And when my mother-in-law was dying of cancer, and had had a colostomy, my father-in-law took care of her, and I don’t imagine it felt too romantic to either of them – but I can’t think of a more genuine show of love than that. It would mean a lot more to me than any quantity of candy, flower, or some of the other stuff often associated with “romance” (though I hope neither of us ever has to have a colostomy).
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TheseLittleOnes:
I’ve known since I was maybe 13 that I wanted to have my babies at home–with a nurse midwife–and it wasn’t being done back then! That was probably about the time I read my first book about childbirth complete with photographs, and the process has fascinated me ever since.
Most of the biblical reports of childbirth seem to indicate the husband wasn’t present. Throughout history he hasn’t been. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, it’s just different. In an emergency, of course he might be, but I don’t think that’s the ideal.
We simply don’t know with Adam and Eve, and Joseph and Mary. Mary is the one who wrapped Jesus and laid Him in a manger. Joseph might not have been there; the inn keeper’s wife or a midwife might have been. Having kept her a virgin, I rather think Joseph might have let her have her modesty that night.
To me it has always seemed it would take away some of the mystery to have my husband there. And I simply don’t want a husband who’s interchangeable with a girlfriend or a female relative, any more than I want to be his buddy on a fishing trip.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot this afternoon, and I think one undercurrent that bothers me is that women are in some ways stronger than men–we can handle childbirth, we handle widowhood better than they do (as a general rule). I think I really wouldn’t want my husband to be impressed by how strong I am–I want him to be the strong one. I don’t want him to be the nurturer and encourager while I am being the strong one who’s actually delivering the baby. Having been single all my life, I’m rather inclined to be “strong,” and I’d want to submit that strength to my husband and let him be the strong one.
And I’ve also heard that it’s pretty common for a woman in childbirth to say to her husband (more or less jokingly), “You aren’t ever touching me again.” Whether or not she says it, I think it can’t help but be an undercurrent of childbirth–the worst pain of her life was caused by him. Let him instead see the joy after the birth, not the pain during it.
(I can’t watch videos on my current setup, BTW.)
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Is anyone taking note of “Myanmar believes 13,000 dead, missing from cyclone” ? It’s a horrible disaster. Deadliest Disaster Since 2004 Tsunami.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080505/wl_nm/myanmar_dc
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One of my female relatives almost died because she wanted a mid-wife. She went through the entire pregnancy, and then found herself in an ambulance. Her life was saved, however she never tried having a child in her bed at home again. It was a horrific experience, the child did not have a brain, there was no way to save it. I would implore ANYONE to SEEK a qualified DOCTOR- not just for yourself, but for the health of the child you are carrying –
Unless someone has been married, had children I doubt they really know how strong their men are, or how much they NEED THEM.
Many fantasize pregnancy, delivery, etc. It’s very serious, we have come along way in medicine, there is NO REASON to go back to the ‘horse and buggy’ days of delivery, etc.
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Victoria,
Of course I don’t know the details about your relative’s horrific experience, but it sounds like it was a very sad situation.
I don’t know how often a baby is born without a brain, but I’d venture to guess that it’s not very common. I am very grateful that in emergency situations doctors saves lives.
Sometimes doctors make mistakes, too. They are only human. My friend’s doctor admitted to her that he should not have induced her. He said it was too early and the result was a C-section. He was taking vacation and wanted her to deliver before he left. I was amazed at his humility in offering her the apology. He must’ve known she’s not the type to sue. Hospital intervention makes labor more difficult than it has to be. Remember Stubob told us that there’s no evidence that fetal monitoring positively affects the outcome of birth? But he says it’s done anyway because the fear of potential lawsuits. How many more things happen at a hospital that benefits the doctor more than the patient? Does lying flat on the back to deliver with feet in stirrups help a woman to deliver better? No, it increases tearing. The use of forceps injures both mother and baby. When women first started going to hospitals to give birth, many many women died. Do I know that they would’ve lived if they had stayed home to birth? Yes, because doctors didn’t wash their hands back then before delivering a baby. The way women were treated in the hospital was not at all respectful or kind. Until the 50’s, women were strapped down and left in isolation while they labored drugged. Are hospitals much better now? C-section rates are getting higher and higher. Doctors say that one reason is their fear of something going wrong and lawsuits.
If someone is afraid to give birth at home, they probably shouldn’t. I’d never urge anyone to consider a homebirth if they believe they cannot birth safely unless it’s at a hospital. Homebirth is a good option for those who have good health and are not gripped by fear of pain. My homebirths have been relatively pain-free. I’m not boasting or stretching the truth. My husband would tell you that it’s hard to tell that I’m in active labor and having contractions. My children are present when I labor and give birth and they see me alternately relaxing in the pool or being very focused. They do not see me in pain. But my first birth in the hospital was very painful and a terrible experience. Nothing went wrong, per se, except that I was made to birth unnaturally and unnecessary interventions caused labor to stall and I’m sure it’s only by grace of God that it didn’t end up in a C-section.
Homebirth is making a comeback and for good reason. Many informed women want to decrease their chances of having a C-section and having an optimal birth that is not medically managed.
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theselittleones
Too many times mid-wives have not had the expertise to give care to a woman in ‘child birth’- A woman can be in excellent health, and at the last moment be in a position to need intensive care — it is too late when the patient is at home, and not in the care of a qualified doctor and hospital, with all the latest equipment.
A C-section can save the life of the mother and child, but it isn’t always an option, if the mother is at home in ‘her bed’ instead of a hospital with a qualified doctor. Again, we aren’t living in a time of ‘horse and buggy’ anymore than we ‘pump water’ from a well, or we live by candles instead of electricity. All of these ideas seem romantic, but they don’t make sense when we are talking about the health of a mother and child. Too many mid-wives delude themselves and the mother’s to be, in believing they can take the place of modern medicine.
It’s too late when a child, or a mother dies with complications in childbirth -
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Victoria,
There’s a difference between a midwife and a nurse midwife; I’d only want the second. I personally would feel much safer in the hands of a nurse midwife than the hands of a doctor–there’s less likely to be complications and less chance of hospital infections, just to name two reasons. It isn’t going “back” at all; it’s the best way to give birth. Those who have hospital births initially and then home births don’t go back.
Nothing about childbirth sounds “romantic” to me, but if something is better for the mother and the child, I’m interested!
BTW, women throughout history haven’t had their husbands present; I’m sure it’s a desire for a large number of women, but it isn’t a NEED. I admit that I’m in the minority on this one, but I don’t think that’s just because I’m single and thus ignorant. I’m quite familiar with childbirth and quite sure it isn’t something I’d want my husband to watch.
These Little Ones, I can’t imagine having one’s children present. That doesn’t sound relaxing, and in case of a difficult birth it could be very traumatic. Furthermore, how do you keep it modest? (Children shouldn’t see their mother naked!) That part sounds decidedly unattractive to me, but definitely I’d want to have babies at home.
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P.S. Nurse midwives actually practice modern medicine, but just the “natural childbirth” branch of it rather than the heavily medicated side of it. And if one is too nervous to give birth at home, it’s possible to choose a midwife who practices at a birthing center, with very quick access to a hospital if necessary. My sister has chosen that option for her last two births, and wouldn’t even consider a doctor-assisted birth now. Midwives are far more attentive (they stay with the mother, so the mother gets a full-time midwife instead of a nurse and five minutes of the doctor’s attention), far more aware of what is going on, trained very well, and they’re women.
My sister had a baby that was breach a week before birth, but the midwives gave her exercises (and told her they probably wouldn’t work with a baby that old), and the baby turned. Doctors would simply schedule a C-section. And C-sections are more dangerous for mother and baby, more likely to lead to problems later (breathing problems, for instance), more expensive, more difficult healing…and they limit how many future children a woman can have.
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I wear a top and am submerged from my chest down in water the entire time. All they see when baby is being born is baby coming up in the water. After our last birth, my then 7 year old asked me how my tummy closed up after the baby was born and he watched the whole thing! The children were very interested and wanted to be a part of the birth. When my labor started after they had gone to sleep, my husband began pumping up our birthing pool with an air compressor and the noise woke them up! It was ok, though, because they just lounged on the couches and waited and waited and finally went back to sleep and then woke up before the baby was born. They have a very positive view of childbirth. They all want lots of children and intend to birth at home. Well, my girls do anyway. I hope for my boys’ sake that they will not expect all women to birth like I do. I don’t vocalize whatsoever during labor. But I know for many women, it helps them. We don’t watch TV, but occasionally we will watch a video and childbirth scenes always make me feel a little uncomfortable. There is so much fear and pain. My children understand birth to be something normal that happens and not a traumatic event. I would not want them in the hospital if I should ever need to go. The hospital can be quite frightening.
Having children present at one’s homebirth may not work for every family, but it works for us and I am very thankful to God for allowing me the privilege of birthing on my own terms and for it to be a joyous time for my family.
Cheryl, you would make such a wonderful mother. You are in my prayers.
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Cheryl,
I’m not a novice in medicine. A Nurse Practitioner/Midwife is NOT a medical doctor, this person does not have the extensive education or background as a physician. Those who are not in the medical field may not understand the difference.
Cheryl, until you are married, I doubt you would know what you would do if you were to be giving birth,….. whether your husband would be present or not. Things change as a relationship matures between a husband and wife, many wives and husbands want the closeness during the delivery of their children.
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I didn’t mean to stir things up. I just thought it was interesting. I can see no spiritual implications either way. The Hebrews had Egyptian midwives, Rachel had a midwife when Benjimin was born, and by inference, midwifery was common. Apparently Zacharias as waiting around for John to be born. However you prefer appears to be the best way.
My wife believes the only thing a husband can do is get in the way. Putting the baby there and getting it out are two entirely different operations.
I wonder what StuBob would say. But it’s probably the course of wisdon to pretend he never saw this.
Blessings everyone.
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Just my two cents:
I think home births are ideal; however I would not have other children present.
I’m in favor of a nurse midwife – I doubt there’s more mistakes made by them
then by a hurried Dr.
I’m for the idea of the husband being with the wife on the birth of their child; some
here feel moms and sisters etc are better choices. I would have been totally
uncomfortable with that. I’m amazed at the number of people now who have
entire families in the room during delivery. The less there the better.
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Chas,
And how many thousand years ago was that?
Have things changed? How many infant deaths were there hundreds of years ago?
There are times an infant needs emergency care after birth, ASAP.
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I think my husband would have been very put out if I had insisted that he not be there for the births of his two children. He was, at the time an SF medic – they are so into medical proceedures of any kind. He had delivered a baby before in an emergency situation. Wild horses could not have dragged him away.
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My children were both born in hospitals.
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Victoria – I’m just curious – How many children do you have? Are they “little”, or teens or older?
Theselittleones – That is great that you have had virtually pain-free births! Wow!
My 2nd (& last) was very painful. As you said about yourself, I don’t verbalize; I kind of retreat “into myself”. I felt annoyed every time my husband talked, so I probably wouldn’t have done well with my older daughter around.
But it is a personal decision, so my remarks are merely to share my own experience, not arguing with yours.
Cheryl – That’s interesting what you wrote about being strong. Yeah, I like my husband to be strong, but there are times when I need to be strong for him, but in my own “feminine” way. I think sometimes part of the helpmate role is stepping in & being strong when needed, but not overstepping.
Pauline – About helping each other with personal needs – It made me so sad to hear my mother complain about being “humiliated” that my dad had to dry her feet after a shower, when she’d broken her shoulder. I asked if she wouldn’t have done the same for him. She said yes, but she would have found it somehow demeaning. I couldn’t believe her attitude. Again, so sad.
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Karen
YOU WRITE:….
“Victoria – I’m just curious – How many children do you have? Are they “little”, or teens or older?”
This has nothing to do with the conversation. As I have said many times I do not give out personal information about my family or my academic background.
If you have checked my bio, that is the info which I am willing to share, unless I choose otherwise and post my thoughts, or experiences.
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No offense intended, Victoria.
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Victoria,
I do realize that my thoughts about a husband might change if I actually had one. I’ve also said that as head of the home, it’s ultimately his decision. However, I’m a “left-brain” person who thinks things out in advance, and as a rule my actual decisions when inside a situation aren’t a lot different from my decisions made ahead of time.
People told me that having kids would change my view of motherhood–that I’d realize that foster kids are so “wounded” that it would be simply impossible for them to obey an adult. I expected, and got, a process of greater and greater obedience–greater obedience, incidentally, in one month than the greatest naysayer has yet gotten from her nine-year-old. I changed details, like moving their bedtime a bit later, but basically kept my “philosophy” of child-rearing about the same. Oh yeah, and people also told me it was unrealistic to take in kids and expect to have a TV-free home. Kids would be so “addicted” to TV, and my life would be so much easier if I let them watch it, that a TV-free home wouldn’t happen. Guess what? Except for Friday-night videos, and a couple of videos for the well child when one child was sick, I had a TV-free home. And the kids rarely even mentioned TV; they didn’t miss it.
So yes, it’s possible I might change my views on a husband’s presence. It’s also quite possible I won’t. I am indeed single, but this isn’t a statement of naive ignorant singleness, but a statement of what I believe is best–and would be willing to have overruled by a husband, or to change if for some reason I changed my mind once I was in that situation. But my guess is that my decision would still be the same, that childbirth is for women.
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Karen
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Cheryl,
Marriage changes everyone, including the husband and the wife, its a maturing process, growing and blending our ideas and dreams together. It includes children one another’s family, and many other facets of life.
Children change our lives too. It’s one thing to baby sit, or take care of someone elses child for awhile, its another thing to have your own children whom you are responsible for, in every way. It’s very different.
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BTW, I hope I don’t sound like, “I’ve made up my mind; don’t confuse me with the facts.” Through the years I’ve changed my mind on many issues–realizing that drinking isn’t a sin, changing my theological views on some issues, etc.
But I tend to look at information and decide the best course of action, and not be “swayed” when others don’t do things the same way. I’ve never been in the height of fashion. (I don’t have pierced ears, and my hair is starting to go gray–though I pluck some of the gray, I don’t and won’t dye it.) I determined years ago that if I was dating a guy, he wouldn’t be in my home, or me in his, unless others were present as well. I determined that I would, if possible, always pay cash for a car, and pay my credit card off each month. (I’ve had to pay only partial payments twice, but have mostly met that goal–and so far I’ve never made payments for a car.) I’d marry a husband willing and able to support the family, because I won’t work outside the home when I have young children. I grew up without TV and want my children to do the same.
Some of these are, and some of them aren’t, moral issues. But they’re decisions I’ve come to before they were actually “relevant,” and thus I don’t have to make the decision in the heat of things. Some might change because of necessity (like the two times I’ve made partial payment-card payments because I simply didn’t have the money), and some might change once I’m in the situation. I try not to be stubborn. But I am analytical, and I don’t get blindsided once I’m in a situation because it’s lots “different” than I expected it to be. (I have never borne a child, but I bet I’ve read more childbirth books than most mothers have, plus seeing videoed and actual births.)
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Victoria,
BTW, having foster kids for a month is FAR more than babysitting: It’s sleepless nights, dealing with bruises and scratches from being kicked and slapped and scratched, dealing with vomiting (and lice), disciplinig without being allowed to spank, feeding, shopping for, clothing, bathing…. It’s everything a “real mother” does for a child of that given age, and more. Before I had kids, I’d done a lot of camp counseling, so I’d done weeklong mothering–but others fed the child and took on part of their care. But now, I’ve done the real thing. “Only” for a month, yes, but I’ve been a mother, much more intense mothering than most parents will ever experience.
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Cheryl – Speaking of greying hair – When I was 40 & my hair was beginning to grey, I was adamant that I would never dye my hair. I would go grey naturally & proudly.
Guess what changed my mind? My best friend dyed her hair. Isn’t that kinda funny?
Then my mother started dying her hair, & I certainly couldn’t let myself look older than my own mother, could I?
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Karen, my hair has been graying since my late 20s. (I had a really hard year, including really bad roommates, at about 26, and that year I had about one new gray hair per day.) In Chicago, everyone dyed her hair. I knew of two exceptions of women under 70 who went gray. One eventually started dying hers, and the other was a “slob,” who also had huge problems with body odor, and would wear heavily stained clothes to work. So, I plucked as much as I could to avoid being in the same category as the slob…and I chose to leave Chicago. (That’s honestly one reason, or, rather, part of a reason. I wasn’t “sophisticated enough” for Chicago, and didn’t want to be, so I chose to leave.)
Unfortunately, I found out that middle-aged women in Nashville have more of a tendency to cut their hair short, and dye it, than in other places in the South. Still, one of my best friends (now 60) doesn’t dye hers, and several other women don’t. And I’m still mostly brown, and plucking a bit to stay mostly brown a little longer. But if I’m totally gray before 50, that’s OK. (My hair will be a very pretty gray like my dad’s–my gray is pure white.)
But yes, I was disappointed when my closest friend in Nashville, who was 48, dyed her hair for the first time. She’s older than I, and I didn’t want to have me gray and not her! But she’s married, and her husband prefers it, and that’s reason enough. I’m single, and don’t have any reason to dye it, so I won’t.
BTW, my mom grayed very late. Up till she was about 75, in pictures she still looked like a redhead. She was gray on top, but that only lightened the red underneath. She liked it that people started calling her “strawberry blonde” and was offended when anyone called her “gray.” When she died at 78, she was finally mostly gray, but still had quite a bit of the fiery red. She’d have been proud to know that the coroner’s description listed her as “blonde” rather than “gray.”
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Cheryl,
I don’t like disagreeing with you, but taking care of kids for one month and camp counseling is not the same.
YOU WRITE:… ” “Only” for a month, yes, but I’ve been a mother, much more intense mothering than most parents will ever experience.”
That’s nonsense Cheryl, if you feel you have been exalted to motherhood, from these experiences you are wrong. Young children, even unruly children do not compare with kids when they reach 10 or 11, nothing like tweens and teens on a daily basis, not to mention their friends all congregating in your home, with all the energy of 10 puppies in one room. LOL
We have one woman in our family who is married, and a teacher, part time, sometimes. She is positive that she has been a mother, and has more experience than all of us. It’s embarrassing to listen to her, she hasn’t a clue as to what being the mother of your own children, day in, day out, year in, year out is, or the responsibility for their education, homework, sports, getting along, etc, etc. It’s really an endless list of things which parents do.
There is much more to being a mother than a ‘camp counselor, or a month long stint as a foster care parent.
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I didn’t really say camp counseling was the same as mothering, though taking care of 12 kids for a week is pretty intense, and something most parents aren’t willing to do! But if you think foster parenting isn’t as “hard” as “real” parenting, it’s only because you haven’t done foster parenting. People who’ve done both are convinced that foster parenting is far tougher. (Mumsee spoke to this issue some months back, about the added emotional and physical baggage foster kids bring, and the lack of any structure or discipline in their prior lives. She’s had “real” kids as well as foster and foster-to-adopt.)
It was only for a month (six weeks, actually), yes, though I was prepared for it to be longer–but would you say that a parent whose child died after a month hadn’t really been a parent? She may not have had to deal with all stages of parenting, but she has still been a parent. If I still had the kids today (as I expected to), would the extra six months have allowed me to call myself a parent? The first month of fostering is actually the hardest, and I did that part.
If someone asks me if I’m a mother, I’ll say no. Currently I am not. But to think that a month of foster parenting isn’t as hard as “real” mothering is really to show you don’t know much about foster kids. (My sister has five kids, and I’d take all five in a heartbeat, compared to the two I had, if I was looking for “easy” mothering.)
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Cheryl,
There are those in my family who have had ‘foster children’ they had them for a long period of time.
I realize you are an EXPERT at mothering, you most likely have more exerience. How could I or anyone else not realize how much time and effort you have made to raise children, you must have a lot of advice to offer.
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Oh Victoria, Victoria, I never claimed to be an expert!
I did claim that I determined in advance to use biblical principles in parenting and that, tough as foster parenting is, consistency and all of that did make a major difference in my girls’ lives. Nor did I offer advice, that I recall, although I do think that one doesn’t have to be a parent to give someone biblical counsel on parenting. With humility, sure, but if someone says, for instance, “I don’t think it’s nice to hit my kids,” I can tell her the biblical guidelines on spanking–I don’t have to be a parent to do that. (The apostle Paul gave parenting advice, for crying out loud, that’s given full authority as Scripture! And there’s no evidence that he had children. Biblical principles of parenting are true, and can be understood to some degree even by single people.)
I did claim that foster parenting is more difficult than parenting other children of the same age, all else being equal. (In other words, it might not be more difficult to parent a healthy foster child than a handicapped one the same age. But it IS more difficult to parent poorly parented children, which is what foster parents do.) I don’t take that back; it is more difficult.
But no, I didn’t claim to be an expert at parenting, and won’t claim that, and I don’t see the need for sarcasm on that point.
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BTW, my home in Chicago was open to neighborhood children, and we sometimes got them in pretty large batches, so I can identify with the 10 puppies in a room!
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