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These college kids like knowledge!
This college professor was stunned. Just stunned. He says he’s taught “freshmen for about thirty years in big state institutions, elite conservatories, smallish private universities, and Christian colleges,” and when he met his daughter’s new college friends, he was blown away by how much they seemed to be in love with knowledge. He took them out to breakfast one morning at the end of his daughter’s first year in college, and he tried to make small talk with them.
After a couple of sentences complaining about the food, they were ignoring me and talking between themselves. Talking about Aristotle. And Plato. About the nature of virtue in the Nicomachean Ethics and how Verdi captured love of country in “Va pensiero” from Nabucco. (”I’m not Italian, but I cry every time I sing it,” one of the girls said.) And what they were most excited about was coming back in the fall and studying the Bible. And the Gospel of John. In Greek. Like I said, I was stunned.
Where were they studying? Probably a college you’ve heard of, and one that seems to be getting it right – at least as far as go the liberal arts.
back to top28 Comments to “These college kids like knowledge!”
Looks interesting.
It certainly can’t be worse than many schools these days.
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I believe St. John’s is one of these colleges that organize their curriculum around the “Great Books,” much like the University of Dallas.
The result is some snobbery (from personal experience) but a lineup of classes that makes me drool.
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What would happen, I wonder, if you asked these students to do a math or physics problem?
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Come on, spinoza. You know there is more to life than science and math. I would wager that these students might be more willing to try the problem than a math student would be to try reading Plato.
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#4 Yes there is more to life than science and math. There is also a lot more to life in the 21st century than Aristotle, Plato, and Verdi.
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Spinoza- Please read about St. John’s curriculum before you criticize. Their students study science and math reading the original works of the scientists and mathematicians in historical context. Not all “Great Books” are literature.
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Kimberly- I believe St. John’s is unique in that there is only one course of study, only one degree available. All students have the same classes and receive a liberal arts degree.
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I was kind of expecting the article to reveal that the college referred to was New St. Andrews in Moscow, Idaho. Anyway, I’m just about twenty pages shy of finishing Allan Bloom’s The Closing of the American Minc about the downfall of a liberal education in American Universities, and this is just how he describes the attitude of a student exposed to a genuine liberal arts education. It’s heartening to know that there are still some colleges with this vision and students getting this kind of education.
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#5 Wait. You mean there’s more to life than Aristotle, Plato, and Verdi? Oh dear.
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Read Bloom years ago and my immediate reaction was to perceive him as a bitter old man still upset over the changes wrought by the sixties. In drool academic manner, he’s no different than people over 40 complaining about “the kids today and their awful —– (fill in generic complaint)”
I went through their reading list — I read most of these while acquiring a double degree in history and philosophy. As for math and science — the history of science is an interesting and fruitful way of acquiring scientific knowledge.
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When I was in high school and looking at colleges, I seriously considered St. John’s. (One of my friends did go there – but we didn’t keep in touch so I have no idea how it went or what she did with her degree, assuming she finished.) In the end I decided that, as much as I loved the idea, I should plan my education around what I was going to do after I graduated, and I could always read those books on my own. I’ve never known whether part of my decision might have been fear that I wouldn’t do all that well, especially where discussion was required, because I’ve always been good at writing but not so good at expressing myself well when talking.
As far as this professor’s impression of the students – I very much doubt that these students love knowledge because St. John’s taught them to, as that they chose St. John’s because they were already that kind of students and wanted a place where they could pursue it.
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The curriculum looks like High School to me.
By the end of their sophomore year they have to pass an examination in elementary algebra and trig. Isn’t that high school level work?. The students all take the same classes as well. This really is High School for another 4 years.
How many college students would be bored studying algebra and trig for hours a day. They should have finished that in 9th and 10th grade.
Sorry. Not impressed. I understand this is a liberal arts school though so it is not expected to prepare students for 21st century careers.
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Theo Godwyn,
No, its purpose is not preparing students for careers. As I remember from reading up on the school thirty years ago, though, their graduates don’t have any particular problem finding employment. There are a lot of companies very glad to find young people who can think through complex issues and present their ideas confidently.
Naturally young people looking for a career in math or science will be looking for a different kind of school.
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The kind of school you go to for an MRS, perhaps.
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I visited St. Johns a few years ago, when I was trying to decide whether to pursue the liberal arts or scientific majors. I was incredibly impressed with the St. Johns students – they are exactly as the article describes. The curriculum is nothing like high school – I did well in highschool and community college, but even I was apprehensive when looking through the curriculum. I eventually decided to choose a more specific science degree, but there are still days when I wonder what would have happened if I had gone to St Johns.
What I’m not sure anyone knows is there is a Christian college similar to St Johns, although much smaller and on the other side of the country. Gutenberg College, in Eugene, Oregon, has a very similar curriculum and style of teaching, but they try to teach it through a biblical worldview.
http://www.gutenberg.edu/
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I’m surprised that anyone would ever assert that a classical education doesn’t prepare you for a 21st century career. Obviously all this trade-focused stuff hasn’t done too well for us either, eh?
Anyhow, I think St. Thomas Aquinas has a similar program, and I think it’s Catholic.
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Read Bloom years ago and my immediate reaction was to perceive him as a bitter old man still upset over the changes wrought by the sixties. In drool academic manner, he’s no different than people over 40 complaining about “the kids today and their awful —– (fill in generic complaint)”
And my perception of the author of this comment is that he’s one of those who uncritically presumes that contemporary modes of thinking are superior to ancient ones–a chronological snob.
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Actually, I generally admire the canon but cannot tolerate the attitude expressed by Bloom and others about the superiority of their generation and past generations in comparison to new generations. There’s the real snub. As a middle aged teacher, I hear the same complaint each day — “kids these days…. when I was young … I can’t believe the younger generation etc..” Quite frankly its tiresome and takes away the incredible abilities and adaptability demonstrated by younger people.
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#14 Galadriel: Its been many years since I’ve heard anyone use the MRS degree rationale. Thats a lotta gals at Bible colleges, no doubt. I dont know the percent breakdown, but probably the lion’s share of these St John’ alumni will be teachers in public schools. No one goes into teaching for the paycheck it gives (the pension benefits? A different matter entirely) and teachers’ wives normally have to hold down a paying job as well.
Most of the folks I know who whizzed thru schools like St John’s wound up as lawyers or else they had a vocational epiphany and became hardened cynics with MBAs. The important thing is that all education should equip students with sound logic and critical thinking skills. I had to chuckle when UTSan Antonio began offering critical thinking courses for pre-laws.
Then I began wondering if perhaps all undergraduates and not just those destined for the bar or bench need to have well-developed critical thinking ability?
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St. John’s has a sister school (exact same structure, etc just a different location) in Sante Fe, New Mexico. It was one of three schools that I visited and I was quite enamored. To put it bluntly, I didn’t attend because I was intimidated — you don’t BS your way through those classes, period (not that I advocate BS, but I’m prone to laziness…).
Anyways, the numbers that I read (7 years ago) regarding their graduates: something like 90% ended up in graduate school immediately after graduating (and a dis-apportionately high percentage to their school of choice). Basically, if you passed muster at St. John’s (Annapolis or Sante Fe) you didn’t have issues getting accepted into Master/PhD programs or getting a job.
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#6 Have read it before, Paula – sounds like a lot of fun actually! But it is a luxury for most people to spend four years in liberal studies – this is more of a department than a whole college – and it is not a good model for college, generally, as implied by HSK in saying this college that is “getting it right”. The idea that colleges should basically scrap math, science, and vocational studies to “get it right” is completely lamebrained, unless of course you want an entire society of lawyers, MBA’s and Jesuits, etc.!
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p.s. There is no better example of the deficiency of a liberal-arts-only education than HSK, whose scientific illiteracy manages to fatally destroy any potential he might otherwise have had as a WOW contributor of news editorials.
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#22
Spinoza,
I went to a liberal arts college but they still required everyone to take some math and science. I think that’s fairly typical – same as students who major in math and science are required to take a few humanities courses.
Taking science courses or not doesn’t change someone’s basic outlook. I took only the minimum requirements because I wasn’t interested in further academic study in science, but I enjoy learning about it and am open to having my mind changed by the evidence. That would have been the case even if I hadn’t taken a single college-level science course. And someone (I’m not speaking of HSK or anyone in particular) who is not interested is not going to be changed by being forced to take such classes.
If you were an employer considering the qualifications of various candidates, you could choose to hire only those with a B.S. (or M.S.). But to many employers a B.A. is plenty adequate for their needs, so there’s plenty demand for colleges to produce graduates with those degrees.
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#23 Going to a liberal arts college is not the same as have a liberal-arts-only curriculum. Some “liberal arts” colleges (e.g., Swarthmore) have excellent science departments.
Taking science courses or not doesn’t change someone’s basic outlook.
That’s sometimes true, but not always (it radically changed mine).
I would interpret your position as favoring more choice and less requirement in general electives. The up side of this, of course, is that you may get more student enthusiasm (good!). The down side, however, is that students will often select a lopsided education with no exposure to things they have no experience in (like science).
The ideal college curriculum seeks to strike a balance between student choice (usually this is the major) and basic literacy in all subjects (general electives in mandated categories).
The St. John’s pro-choice view – if carried to extremes – would allow K-12 students to never ever take a math or science course (or a history or literature course, for that matter) if it didn’t suit them. Society would be the poorer.
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p.s. I imagine that HSK will be learning a lot of geology, astronomy, biology, math, etc., in Purgatory…
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#24
Spinoza,
I took college-level math and science courses in high school, which fulfilled my graduation requirement for college. For all practical purposes I followed a liberal-arts-only curriculum once I graduated from high school.
Arguably the most educational science class I took was Physical Science in ninth grade. I did not learn a great deal more about the physical properties of various elements and compounds than I had already known, but immeasurably more about the scientific method.
I had known scientists could take a sample of something (such as my doctor taking a blood sample), run it through some machine, and give results about its contents. But I’d never given any thought to how the machine “knew” what was in there.
That Physical Science class was a real eye-opener as to what scientists can know and how they learn it. Our final project was to identify an “unknown” (to us) substance, using only our basic tools such as thermometer, water, bunsen burner, various flasks and tubes – and our knowledge of the physical properties of the various substances we had examined over the course of the year.
Subsequent science courses taught me lots of information about living organisms, the laws of motion, and the basic makeup of things at an atomic and subatomic level. But no other class came close to teaching me as much about the nature of scientific study, what we can know and how we know it.
I don’t know how many high schools have such a course as a graduation requirement as mine did. I think they all should. But without that foundational understanding of how science works (and I doubt most college science courses bother with that foundational part, since students should have learned it in high school), science classes can give you lots of information but still leave you misunderstanding the nature of science.
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“but cannot tolerate the attitude expressed by Bloom and others about the superiority of their generation and past generations in comparison to new generations”
The thesis of the book is much more than Paul Lynde singing “Why can’t they be like we were–perfect in every way? What’s the matter with kids today?” He traces the whole trajectory of the fall of liberal thinking (in the true sense of the word) and, if anything, he sees the last couple of generations as victims rather than perpetrators. In fact, he puts a lot of blame on his own generation for the problem.
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science classes can give you lots of information but still leave you misunderstanding the nature of science.
I would argue that both are important…
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