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Religion: dead metaphors and dead horses
I’m Presbyterian. I’m Reformed. I’m Confessional. I’m Evangelical. I’m also sometimes tired of hearing much the same language and theological boilerplate over and over again in sermons, in Christian devotional literature, in essays by Christians, etc. This is a complicated issue that bears more discussion than we can give it, but I can say right now that I sometimes grow weary of hearing A) How Depraved We Are and B) How Depraved the World is.
I know I need to be reminded, constantly, about my own depravity and need for grace in all matters. I know I need to be reminded that the world is Fallen. But that’s what happens when you’re Presbyterian – at least the Evangelical kind of Presbyterian. You hear a lot about depravity and fallenness. That’s what we do. That’s what we talk about.
When I was in the Church of Christ, all I heard all day long was How We’re All Supposed to be Baptized or We’re Going to Hell and Why We Don’t Play Pianos in Church. When I was at a Vineyard Church, I remember hearing all about Why Theological Details Don’t Matter and Why Congas Are Really Awesome in Church. Churches are made of people, and people are broken, and the way we do church is broken. Every church, even the ones who’ve got things mostly right, does a lot wrong.
So, my question: What does your church do wrong – which is to ask, what are you tired of hearing about in sermons and in the pews? What’s the dead horse that your denomination beats? Tell us the name of your denomination, too, so we can compare notes.
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The LCMS church that I attend had a now retired pastor who elevated Martin Luther almost right up there next to Jesus Christ. I heard Luther preached about as often as I heard Christ preached. He is one of the reasons why I left and have returned since his retirement. Now I don’t hear quite so much Luther.
The thing that bothers me is the Lectionary. Its cyclic themes leave little room for expository preaching on other topics. There doesn’t seem to be any lattitude to preach one’s way through a particular book of the Bible if you’re a Lutheran pastor using the Lectionary.
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I’m tired of being told I should “abide” in Christ without being told what that means. “stay with?” “tolerate?”
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Awesome topic!
A fascinating exercise is to look at each denominational split in church history and try to figure out what controversy caused the branch. The cause is often trivial, yet it becomes a dominant distinctive for that denomination. Then unfortunately, we separate into our own little conclaves and speak badly about other denominations. We call this holiness.
These distinctives dominate and take our focus off of the rest of the Bible. I can’t talk to my Presbyterian friend without hearing about Calvin’s points or Arminianism. You can’t talk to my Baptists friends without them asking you how many times you went to church this week. You can’t talk to my charismatic friends without hearing about what God told them today.
Whenever church history and human traditions are elevated to the level of scripture it cheapens scripture. As Klasko says, Luther or Calvin or Augustine are placed on a pedestal. Personalities or order of worship or style of music become almost holy in themselves.
So what bugs me most of all is this separationism among Christians that keeps us divided into little holiness groups. I am not pushing for Ecumenism or watering down doctrine. I am talking about fellowship with Christians who differ with us.
Our Independent Baptist church treats fellowship with other denominations as worse than with the world. We look down on them for minor doctrinal differences or because they don’t worship as we do.
This isn’t biblical separation. This is a false holiness. It is a hermetic bubble that breads anemic Christians who are so frail and timid that they can barely speak to anyone who is not exactly like them. It reminds my of the paranoia of Howard Hughes who was fled into isolation for fear of germs. Jesus was fully ‘in the world’ and spoke to everyone, even to those self-righteous religious folk.
I admire some of the stronger Christians here who are not afraid of theological differences, but rather find them a refreshing reminder of a God who delighted to make all things unique.
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After attending 13 church in seven different denominations and several nons across the country (thank you, US Navy), I’ve come to see denominations almost as worship preferences.
I’m currently writing a memoir about my experiences in all those denominationally different spots–we went, for example, from a charismatic high Episcopal church in New England to a Calvary Chapel in California–and how I found encouraging and wise believers everywhere.
With all those different experiences, I’ve had a lot of changes and new ideas to consider, so I’m not bored with the teaching. However, I’m sick to death of singing some of the songs. I won’t even open my mouth anymore on “Seek Ye First,” even while I appreciate the sentiment.
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I love everything about orthodox Anglican worship!
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One man’s “beating a dead horse” is another man’s “defense of the essentials of the faith”.
I’m in the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America – motto: “please don’t confuse us with the PCUSA”).
Our dead horse-beating is generally done on a grass-roots, case-by-case basis rather than imposed by General Assembly or individual presbyteries. It is the job of the Session of the church to intervene when there is horse-beating or hobby-horse riding.
I still find the “Federal Vision” debates particularly unedifying.
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We love our church, they teach/preach the Gospel, it is a blessing to listen to the messages.
We are Believers, we aren’t part of an ‘ism’ as in Lutheranism, Calvinism, or Pentecostalism, etc.
We love the hymns, and at least one starts the service, maybe more. We aren’t fans of the 7/11 Praise music (7 phrases sung 11 times) We have Sunday night service, and services during the week, some are Bible studies, teaching and preaching.
Our church is missionary minded with many abroad and here at home. There are about 1000 churches in the US and over 300 abroad. I’m reluctant to give the name of my church, ….. I will say that it is an Evangelical Bible Believing Church. We have outreach for anyone. There is constant help for the poor and needy.
Women are not pastor’s in our churches.
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I can’t think of anything regarding our church as a whole, but our worship leader (one of several pastors on the staff) seems to equate loudness with sincerity. He frequently urges us to sing louder, clap louder (we use clapping as a way of praising God – giving Him “applause”), or say “Amen” louder, as though one can’t be just as intense quietly.
I’m a quiet person, and I resent being told to do things loudly, especially with the implication that my quietness means lack of conviction. I mentioned it when my husband and I met with the senior pastor shortly after we started going there, when we were deciding whether to continue. The senior pastor just said, “That’s Andy. Try not to let it bother you.” And most of them time I don’t let it bother me. But occasionally it’s a struggle.
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This subject makes me terribly uncomfortable. We live in a society which loves to complain, to tear apart, & tear down.
Perhaps some would consider it a bit of a cliche for me to remind us of Phil. 4:8-
“Finally, brethren, whatever things are true…noble…just…pure…lovely…of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.”
Yes, I know there are things in our churches which can irritate us & frustrate us. But it doesn’t seem to me to be a good thing to spill them out here to not only fellow believers, but the unbelievers, too. It seems somewhat shameful to me.
My husband had some serious issues with our pastor & church not too long ago. He finally did the right thing & sat down to discuss his thoughts with our pastor. Most of his problems were worked out, or there was an explanation for why things happened this way & not the way he thought.
To me, it’s kind of like approaching a sinning brother. You don’t blurt it out in front of the whole church, you go to the brother or sister to talk privately. Thus, I think, is how it should be with this topic.
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Thank you, Karen O.
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You’re welcome, Kara.
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A helpful point Karen O, but while I agree that care needs to be taken to avoid unkind or unhelpful characterizations in this kind of discussion, Phil 4.8 is in the context of helping people resolve a conflict going on in the church (see 4.1-3) and not over thinking about issues in the church. Constructive reflection and discussion on problems in the church can actually be helpful and, it seems to me, actually form the basis for many of the NT letters.
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Another quick thought, the “dead horses” the HSK is referring to are often the things that denominations use to justify their existence and/or to help them promote their “corner on the truth.” This, unfortunately, does a lot more to reinforce divisions between denominations within the church as a whole than promote the unity that actually does exist in Christ. Denominations are here to stay, but how nice it would be if the so-called “distinctives” were so secondary that we didn’t even notice that the were there . . . .
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Theron – I understand your point, but in re-reading the “So my question…” paragraph in the main post, it doesn’t seem to be asking for “constructive reflection”.
Maybe it’s just me.
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Loved the book entitled Pagan Christianity on this topic.
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I’m Baptist and I’m tired of being made to feel guilty for not sharing my faith or for following up with visitors to my SS class. I mean, how important are those things? I have a busy life!
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Deb,
While we’re all busy, isn’t that part of the Great Commission?
I wish churches that say they want to grow actually go out and do some outreach, even on a minor scale. We had a Friendship Sunday–nobody brought anybody new!! While very few that are invited actually come (including the people I invited), I didn’t hear a lot of talk about those that had been invited, either.
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Currently in a house church. Used to go to a Reformed Baptist church. I got tired of hearing about the 1689 Confession. I think some of the people looked to it instead of the Scripture (though much of the confession is directly from the Bibile). A church being “constituted” lead to rejoicing. Sorry, but where is a document mentioned in Scripture that makes a church a church.
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Cameron, I really wasn’t serious. Our church does 4-5 activities a year in addition to Upward Sports that are geared to the community where our building is. We work hard at getting people registered at these events so we can follow up w/ a letter, phone call or visit. In addition, we have Tuesday and Wednesday night outreach and in the summer, we take 4 nights and go knock on doors asking people to come and visit us if they do not have a church home. We also ask if they have any needs we can pray for and/or help with. Last year we knocked on 3005 doors. I just know I don’t do what I should and I do feel guilty. I laugh about going somewhere where they do “church lite” –no responsibilities — just show up on Sunday mornings, but I know I am where I’m supposed to be.
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Ah, okay.
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As one who attends no church I do have a related question for those who do. Does your church ever promote inquiry into the tenets of other Christian denominations? Or does it consistently present your denomination’s beliefs and prescribed behaviours as being the ony acceptable ones?
I have often thought that one of the advantages of being a church-goer might be that it would be intellectually stimulating. One could explore other doctrines, their derivations, strengths, weaknesses etc.
But most often the only real intellectual exercise I ever saw or now read about is biblical threshing and fine tuning to provide evidence for conclusions already reached by the church’s leadership. These conclusions are then translated into the endless repetitive behavioral imprecations that HSK complains about.
So when was the last time your pastor discussed another Christian faith, or brought in someone from outside to do so?
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I have thought about this all day long. First, we have enough complainers in the church to take care of the subject for days.
DH and I are LCMS. We have been involved in indepth Bible Study for at least 20 years. We have had faithful pastors who preach and teach the Word in it’s truth. My desire is to hear a Law and Gospel sermon every Sunday. The Law shows us our sin and the Gospel points to Christ crucified for our salvation. That is what I need to be reminded each week. I must always keep in mind that my faith is not about what I feel and think. It is all about Christ and what He has done for me.
Just like any other denomination or church, going mistakes will be made along the way. But if we who are faithful remain in His Word and know the sound doctrine of scripture we will not want our ears tickled with what we want to hear. We want the meat of scripture so we grow in our faith–not just milk to pacify us.
John M #2–By hearing God’s Word, God’s gift of faith is planted in your heart and strengthened.(Romans 10:17;Psalm 119:25,28,50,107,154).
When Christ’s Word abides in your life and heart, Jesus and the Father also abide with you. (John 14:23).
As you pray in Jesus name, He abides in you (John 15:17).
As you worship each week, and as His living Word is preached, Jesus abides in you (Matthew 18:20).
He abides in you through your study of scripture and therefore you abide in Him.
More scripture verses on the concept of abiding are found in the Epistle of 1 John and the first chapter of 2 John.
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Arcadia- Our church has covered their disagreements with Calvinism. (I disagree with them, but that’s another story.) And at another church the pastor interviewed a Jewish rabbi, a Buddhist, a Mormon, and a Muslim over several weeks in order to help us understand the differences in our beliefs.
My previous church was a “Willow Creek” model, and I got tired of the phrase “Do life together”. The way the church went out of its way to avoid “churchy” words was almost humorous. It’s a program, not a bulletin. An auditorium, not a sanctuary.
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Paula,
I go to a “Willow Creek” type church now (though not anywhere near the size of Willow Creek), and I hadn’t realized that was where the phrase “do life together” came from. As so many churches I’ve been at are places where you only do “church stuff” (worship, Bible studies, outreach), I appreciate the emphasis on finding ways to spend time working and playing and socializing with one another without having to have an explicitly “spiritual” focus. (I’m looking forward to going hiking with some women from the church in the near future.)
At the Baptist church where I first heard the Gospel and became a Christian, they did a lot of the same word substitution, but my impression was that it wasn’t about avoiding “churchy” words but about avoiding words associated with the Catholic or mainline Protestant churches. I found it silly that they called their worship area an auditorium, since it looked very much like a church sanctuary to me.
At the church I attend now, though, I understand what they’re trying to do. A lot of people have never been in a church before, and think of it as a foreign environment with its own special vocabulary and ideas and practices that are worlds apart from their everyday life. The New Testament used mostly ordinary words from ordinary life to talk about spiritual things. So at our church they speak of “leaders” instead of “elders” and asking Jesus to be our “Forgiver and Leader” rather than “Savior and Lord.” That doesn’t mean they never use words like repent or redeem, but they’re not thrown around without providing definitions for people not familiar with their meaning. And we worship in an “auditorium” – but then, it really is, with a full-size stage up front complete with curtains and lighting (also used for drama productions), and the seating is theater seats, with a sloping floor toward the front so everyone can see well.
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Deb,
We were so there. There really was so much emphasis on doing and being there “every time the church doors are opened.” It’s really not family friendly. My husband works long hours. We have a large family. Yet, we would all rush to get to church every Wednesday night so that we would be faithful to church. Of course, we wanted to be faithful and one of the regulars instead of those “Sunday morning only crowd”. These quotes were used regularly in the pulpit. A friend guiltily confessed to me frequently that she just can’t do all the services and activities all the time. She was a young widowed mother who spent a lot of time helping her parents but she felt pressured every time she missed a service. For those families who didn’t live close by but taught at the church school and their children attended as well, they would sometimes stay at the church the entire day and night. We love the Lord and desire to worship and fellowship with believers often but not at the detriment of our family’s welfare. I don’t know why it’s so important that the church demand such time commitments. One cannot hope to change the structure of this church. We have gone for years to this particular denomination and they are all the same. We now go to a church that meets once a week. No regularly scheduled activities. No Patch or Awana. I find that we still get together with our church family quite often, outside of church now. People regularly open up their homes and we love getting together. We’re not compelled to only go to the church building but we get together as often as our schedule permits and it is freeing and we are growing in the Lord. It’s ok to move on to a different church when church becomes more work than worship.
Harrison,
We have gone to a few reformed churches and all I heard was depravity. And the fallenness of man. You are not alone.
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Okay, my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek. My busy life is my problem not my church’s. I find excuses not do to what I know I should. Jesus called us to be fishers of men and told us to go and tell. I’m being disobedient and my church reminds me of that. Please understand: No one has ever called me on this, but the teaching from the pulpit reminds me of what I should be doing and the Holy Spirit convicts me.
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At our Baptist church, the standard greeting is, “Hi stranger!” or “I missed you at service the other day”. In other words, they were there being faithful, counting heads and we were not.
Once someone just said, “Nice to see you!” and my wife and I were delighted.
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21. Arcadia, that’s how we got my Sunday School teacher. He was invited to do a class on Judaism and as he put it we loved him into the church. My pastor also makes it a point to send gifts and cards to other churches on anniversaries and to help out on their building programs. He believes we need to stop treating other churches as rivals and start treating them as more of an ally.
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Harrison, I don’t know what Vineyard you went to, but the ones I’ve attended weren’t so shallow. In fact, the deepest theology I’ve ever been immersed in was at the Vineyard in Columbus, Ohio, under Pastor Rich Nathan. Maybe you ought to hop on a plane and come learn something.
By the way, you probably won’t find any congas there.
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Three cheers for KarenO (at #9).
No, make that seven.
Or even nine.
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Several years ago, I was asked by a librarian if I could point out a book in the public library for someone who wanted to look into the Christian faith. She was a member of our church and simply did not know what to recommend, but thought I might know something. I didn’t know either, because as we stood there looking through the section on Christianity, there was such a dirth of any good books. Plus, there were so many competing books and ideas. My heart went out to someone who did not want to actually go to a church,(maybe not knowing which to go to anyway!)but wanted to find out what Christians believe. That, I believe, is the tragedy of hanging onto things that are simply not important: We hurt those who are looking for the true God, and we hurt ourselves by wasting time on nonessentials, therefore not learning the more important things.
God tells His people through Ezekiel, that they have obscured the image of God. Their neighbors, who should have been learning from God’s people who God really is, could no longer discern the truth from them. Do we not do this in the modern, visible church? How does the world look at us and see who the true God is? Is His image so obscured that they can no longer see who He is? We must reject false doctrine, but there are many other things we cling to that are just not important.
I have attended several different churches, from the very liberal to the very fundamentalist; from very liturgical to ones with no liturgy. I have also been accused of being from some denominations that I have never attended, because of some point I have made at a bible study or Sunday School class. Every church has some errors and some truth, including, I daresay, Victoria’s. What would happen if we all asked God’s Holy Spirit to help us give up the nonessentials, so that we may concentrate on the essentials and may once again let the world see who God really is? What would happen if we asked the Spirit to help us accept the differences and celebrate them as Xion eluded to: God’s unique touch? What would happen if we prayed in humbleness to be taught more truth and forgiven for obscuring the image of God to our neighbor?
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John M – To me, abiding in Christ is trusting Him & walking faithfully in Him.
An example – Say you have heard rumors that the company you work for may be closing.
When you are lifting this concern in prayer to Jesus & leaving it in His hands, you are abiding in Christ.
When you are worrying & fretting over the possiblity, you are not abiding in Christ.
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Ki, what is the reason for the ‘drive by’ remark “Every church has some errors and some truth, including, I daresay, Victoria’s.” ?
I shared the love I have for my church, what they are doing, and joy I have when I sit and listen to the message. I am grateful for the blessings, when I hear messages of GOD’S Grace, love and power, HIS abundant mercy shown to us as we lean on HIM for our needs, and guidance through our everyday lives.
My remarks in post 7 were from my heart, sharing what we have in our church.
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Sorry, Victoria. I’m glad you are happy with your church and it’s blessings. I didn’t think this was the idea of the thread, however. The impression I have of you concerning your church is that there is no error in it. May it be so. OTOH, perhaps your remarks about no “isms” and a few other things may qualify as a dead horse to some?
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Victoria, I really am sorry if I offended you. I have appreciated how much you have grown in the tenor of your discourse on this blog. I do think you are very sensitive. Sometimes that is a good thing and sometimes it makes arguements where there needn’t be. I would imagine this is what Karen O was concerned about in even raising this discussion. I appreciate being able to discuss these things without each party getting upset. I was not trying to upset you, put you down or put your church down.
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Ki,
YOU WRITE: ..
“The impression I have of you concerning your church is that there is no error in it.”
Did I say that? No I didn’t.
YOU WRITE: ..
“perhaps your remarks about no “isms” and a few other things may qualify as a dead horse to some?”
If the idea of the thread is to find fault with your church then have at it. The best way to solve problems with anyone’s church is to go to the pastor’s, elders and discuss your concerns. Continued attendance in a church anyone is displeased with makes no sense. Murmuring, and complaining won’t change a thing.
There will always be those who are the chief ‘fault finders’ in church. For some it’s the main topic of conversation after church.
I wanted to share in post 7 & 33 that there are churches which are alive, vibrant, serving the community, preaching the Gospel, and giving comfort and hope to a hurting world.
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Ki, I’m not a sensitive person at all, …. I am very concerned with people finding fault with their church, and willing to complain about it to people who can’t fix the problem.
I grieve for churches who have lost their way, for those who attend, and do nothing but complain, wringing their hands about the problems they see. More can be solved by praying to the LORD and asking for guidance, contacting the pastor, being honest and humble about your concerns.
There are solutions to church problems, but they won’t be found by gossiping about ones church on this blog.
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HSK writes: ..
“So, my question: What does your church do wrong – which is to ask, what are you tired of hearing about in sermons and in the pews? What’s the dead horse that your denomination beats? Tell us the name of your denomination, too, so we can compare notes.”
My response after reading these posts:
What’s the point in encouraging the blog to gossip about their churches? What will that accomplish?
Spread discontent, focus on the negative? What are we to do when the church isn’t preaching/teaching the Gospel, when its become ‘dead’ going through the motions?
ANSWER: PRAY, reaching out, ask God what you can do, go to the pastor, elders.
What you don’t do is encourage people to gossip about their church while they sit there Sunday after Sunday, and then encourage them further to “Tell us the name of your denomination, too, so we can compare notes.” that isn’t the answer, nor is it Scriptural -
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Victoria, I believe Xion made a good case for how this topic could be good for making us think a little more deeply and perhaps break down some unneccessary walls. I will leave it there.
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Gossip can be called many things in order to avoid the word ‘gossip’ however, the only way to change ones church is to PRAY about it, discuss it with the pastor’s and elders.
Xion made his point, — and I made mine.
Doctrine is another subject, if I didn’t agree with the doctrine my church believes, I would simply leave. Trying to tie doctrines together in order to ‘break down walls’, when the doctrines are not Biblical, builds nothing. Anyone can join the church of ‘Unity’ and accept whatever doctrine, they or others bring to the church.
HSK stated what he wanted to know, on the beginning post.
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Xion/#27,
When I say, “I missed you” after not seeing you the week before, I genuinely missed that person’s company and fellowship. I wanted to let them know their absence had been noticed only because it was our loss and hoped they had not been ill, etc.
Maybe I’ll find a new way to express that sentiment.
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Cameron, I think its kind to say to anyone “I’ve missed you” – the person could have been ill, or maybe their family. It’s an opportunity to tell someone you have missed their company.
The other comment you could make is “where have you been” or “why haven’t you been attending church” which is confrontational, putting someone on the defensive, when there was NO NEED TO.
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I just had a thought while reading through this tonight. None of us will ever find the “perfect” church, as it does not exist this side of heaven.
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Victoria #42. I think it far better to phone up someone or even drop by their home if you’ve truly missed seeing them. Missed them enough to remind them of their absence, but not enough to enquire about them before the week had elapsed? Many are guility of this, no?
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Peter so right you are. But we can strive to keep God’s Word, and give it out.
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Sawgunner, I probably wouldn’t call everyone I hadn’t seen, as they may have left earlier, or they went to the early service.
In a smaller church its much easier to know who wasn’t there for the past week (husband, wife and children)-
I’ve also heard people say “sometimes when I don’t attend for two weeks or more, no one asks where I was, or that I was missed” or “I don’t think anyone misses the fact I wasn’t in church, they don’t care” –
My husband and I have had an off and on discussion of this, and a few other church related topics today. What we need to do as the body of Christ, is to PRAY, that we will be guided to what the needs of our fellow Christians are, — love those who are lonely needing comfort, find ways to solve the problems within our churches by discussing them with church leaders. Be less apt to bring the problems to an open forum such as this, which solves nothing, but makes tender problems a source of gossip for those who don’t know Christ as their Savior.
I hope you know I was speaking to everyone Sawgunner, — I got carried away. My heart breaks for the church, I am grieved at the discontent I hear and witness, especially today. This hasn’t been my best day, many things upon my heart right now, I’m so fortunate to have such a loving husband, who loves the LORD with all his heart.
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I’ve been thinking about this thread and all the complaints, etc., which have been lodged against your churches. I have given my thoughts as to how it can be resolved, OR to leave your church and find another.
One thing that concerns me is this; there are those in Muslim nations who are not allowed to meet and study GOD’S Word — one can turn their eyes to China — they are not able to have Bibles and study GOD’S Word or meet together and Worship our LORD. Many go to bed hungry, but worse yet, they are hungry for GOD’S Word and in their country it is AGAINST THE LAW (we can’t bring extra Bibles to China, and the athletes aren’t allowed to bring them at all) and those here on this blog bemoan their church?
We who have the freedom to Worship GOD, to meet, fellowship with one another, never having to worry about being arrested for these meetings, or for owning a Bible, HOWEVER the moaning, whining, complaining, and endless ‘comparing of notes’ per HSK –
Anyone in the churches which are not allowed to Worship or own Bibles must look upon the Believers in the USA as a bunch of cry-babies, ungrateful, pabulum spoon fed children who can’t take upon themselves the responsibility to go to their church leaders and settle their disputes, or change churches.
And we wonder how the ‘hurting world’ the ‘oppressed of freedom of religion’ must view this condition that the Believers in the US suffer from. Then we have the wannabe group of UNIFY no matter the cost, ….
This isn’t about doctrine, its about whining!
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Victoria, you are making a lot of assumptions that are not necessarily so. You have no idea if people have gone to their church boards, pastors etc at all. You have no idea what anyone’s experience is in their churches. You won’t know either, since apparently no one can ever discuss it.
You also assume that people want to unify no matter what the cost, when no one has said that.
You also accused everyone here as being a whiner. I personally reject that about myself and think you have no basis to say it about all the people who have written on this thread.
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Victoria – I have heard that our fellow believers in many other nations, particularly those who are under severe persecution, pray for our revival.
KI – I understand the need for certain issues to be discussed, but I question the appropriateness of discussing them here. We can easily forget that there are non-believes “watching” us. I fear it could be very displeasing to our Lord.
My comments have not been to condemn anyone on here for sharing, but are more a call to caution.
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If I have a problem with what I’m hearing in church I’ll talk to my pastor. I will not complain about it here and treat my pastor like he is a politician or my church like it is a TV show.
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Looking back through the posts here, I have seen very little complaining, at least about our current churches. And those of us who had a problem with churches we previously attended did exactly what Victoria mentioned – leaving that church to find one that better taught/lived out the Gospel.
KLasko is concerned that the use of the Lectionary limits the scope of expository preaching. But she is apparently satisfied on the whole with her church. I managed to think of one minor point about my church – something I did mention to the pastor but which is hardly reason to leave. Neither of those is an issue unique to our particular churches or a reflection on the individuals who lead them, but rather a common characteristic in many churches that are for the most part very good.
I did not see HSK’s invitation as one to gripe about our churches and their leadership but rather to share ways in which we recognize the common ways in which our churches fall short of fully teaching/living out the Gospel.
It’s hardly news to anyone who is at all familiar with Evangelical churches that some put an awful lot of emphasis on depravity while others go out of their way to be “seeker-sensitive.” There have certainly been plenty of complaints on various threads on this blog about the shallowness of certain styles of music used in worship.
I think it would say a lot more to non-Christians who visit this blog to take note of those shortcomings, agree that some are minor enough that we can still find spiritual nurture in that church, and perhaps talk about how some of them might be corrected, rather than refusing to talk about them at all.
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Thank You Pauline – It was never my intent to bash the LCMS but an honest attempt to talk about where there might be room for improvement.
Perhaps HSK’s question could have been phrased better.
Pauline is correct – it is not something insurmountable, just a concern about the limitations the Lectionary poses, and certainly no reason to leave. Having said that, I see and understand the reason for the Lectionary find that it is one of the things that unites us with other believers who use it. That is a good thing. There are ways to deal with the limitations.
I also think that because we are all fallen, in every denomination and in every body of believers, there is room for improvement. I also believe that frank discussion of the matter could help us all as long as it does not degenerate into bashing.
Having attended a number of churches and military chapels due to a nomadic lifestyle with the military, I could easily stand on the outside of each and cast stones at lots of denominations and bodies I have come accross.
You can’t fix what you don’t know is broken, and squelching discussion on the issue does not help. At the same time, caution should be exercised in expressing these things. It might just be an eye opener to find out how we come accross to the unbeliever who comes through our doors to check us out.
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I am sorry that my post was a little misguided, and a little misconstrued, by some of the readers here, including some of my favorite regulars. Yes, this post comes dangerously close to sounding like I’m attempting to breed contempt and sow dissent among believers. That’s a problem.
My purpose was to be a little more endearing about the things that delineate our denominations so profoundly. If you’ll go back and look at the post, I admitted that “Churches are made of people, and people are broken, and the way we do church is broken. Every church, even the ones who’ve got things mostly right, does a lot wrong.” One of the things our churches often do wrong is to beat dead horses, and I gave examples of that in my post. I should have written in a more endearing tone, as those clichés of various denominations – e.g., the way we Presbyterians love hearing about predestination and depravity – are also comforting to us, reminding us why our theology aligns most readily with that particular denomination.
I believe it’s healthy to discuss what churches could do better – since that seems to be the subject of much of the New Testament – but forgive me for making that idea come off as chatty, trivial, and inconsequential. And thank you all for reading, and for caring enough to comment.
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Thanks, Harrison.
I still think there IS room for discussion.
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Absolutely, Klasko.
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Harrison – Thank you for clearing up your intent.
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Growing up Baptist, the list of “sins” seemed to stay about the same: smoking, drinking, a few of those things that, ironically, none of us was actually interested in doing. In other words, the Baptists were trying to bring conviction to people who weren’t in the room (like, say, the Presbyterians). Now, being a Presbyterian who really doesn’t drink (I have had a little two or three times), I sometimes think that Presbyterians being drinkers is its own cliche–you know, that Presbyterians drink partly because the Baptists think we shouldn’t.
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I used to work for a major airline. Our motto was, “Life would be so much easier without all these passengers”. Likewise church would be so much easier without all of these people!
What amazing love Jesus had for his ragtag bunch of bickering self promoters! What an example for us. I think that is the point. We will be known by our love. But love is anything but timid and passive!
Jesus had strong words for the self-righteous, but he loved them to death. He looked on those who pierced him with forgiveness.
Speaking the truth in love is not whining. One of the jobs of the pastor is lift people’s gaze above the mundane (i.e. mundus – things of this world) to the eternal.
We are quick to divide over dumb things that don’t matter. Jesus chastised the Pharisees for placing so much importance on the traditions of men. A pastor (and contributor here) called me a heretic for not being amillennial. Well, that poor fellow was dividing us over a trivial (though interesting) topic with no eternal consequence.
As iron sharpens iron, I prefer to edify and sharpen fellow believers rather than letting such bitterness continue. And, on the many occasions when I say something wrong, I am thankful for those who take the time to correct me!
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My husband once made up a thing about when people of the various Christian denoms make it to Heaven. I don’t remember exactly how it goes, but it’s similar to this…
The Catholics are surprised that any Protestants were allowed in, the strict Baptists are surprised that any flakey Pentecostals are there, the flakey Pentecostals are surprised at the number of stodgy Presbyterians there are…etc.
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I don’t drink, smoke, cuss or chew, and I don’t go with guys that do.
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