back to top52 Comments to “Whirled Views 5.17”

1. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.17.08 AT 7:49 AM

   Looks like many of the “pregnant FLDS minors” the state of Texas kidnapped from the YFZ Ranch may actually turn out to be adult women:
   

   Texas checking how many sect ‘girls’ are women
   By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer
   Fri May 16, 7:10 PM ET

   When Texas child welfare authorities released statistics showing nearly 60 percent of the teen girls taken from a polygamist sect’s ranch were pregnant or had children, they seemed to prove what was alleged all along: The sect commonly pushed girls into marriage and sex.

   But in the past week, the state has twice been forced to admit “girls” who gave birth while in state custody are actually adults. One was 22 and claims she showed state officials a Utah birth certificate shortly after she and more than 400 minors were seized from the west Texas ranch in an April raid.

   The state has in custody two dozen other young mothers and others whose ages are in dispute. If most of them also turn out to be adults, it would be a severe blow to the state’s claim of widespread sexual abuse.

   If it turns out the other 24 disputed minors are adults, the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six. That would amount to about one-fifth of the girls that age found at the ranch — substantially higher than the average rate of teen pregnancies in Texas but a far cry from 60 percent. …

   Read the rest here …

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2. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.17.08 AT 8:01 AM

   Also, it seems that many of the social workers involved in the YFZ case are experiencing serious mental anguish over what the state of Texas is doing to the 464 FLDS kids and their families:
   

   Polygamist sect work takes toll on social workers
   ‘It was wrenching to pull children away from their mothers.’
   By Andrea Ball, AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
   Thursday, May 08, 2008

   Terry Secrest lies awake at night, thinking about the women and children of Texas’ now-famed polygamist sect.

   The Austin social worker is working with mothers from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who have relocated to Central Texas. She says she listens to their worries and answers their questions, laughs at their jokes and respects their faith.

   After 10 years in social work, Secrest usually leaves her work at the office. But this case “has touched me a lot more than I ever expected,” said Secrest, 54.

   …

   … At one point, more than 700 state child welfare workers were assigned to the case. That doesn’t include the scores of lawyers, therapists and social workers from other state agencies and nonprofits.

   Experts say many of those professionals may be suffering from secondary traumatic stress, a condition that affects people working with victims of trauma. Symptoms include anxiety, sleeplessness, nightmares and intrusive thoughts.

   …

   In most cases, social workers have a good handle on why they’re taking children from their homes, said Vicki Hansen, executive director of the Texas chapter of the National Association of Social Workers. In the FLDS case, they didn’t know the details of the investigation or what led up to the mass removals.

   “These workers are used to going into homes where things are really bad and feeling good about moving children from risk and danger,” Hansen said. “This situation is completely different. To look at the mothers and children, you would see love and affection and bonds, plus children who appear to be in good physical condition. It was wrenching to pull children away from their mothers.”

   …

   Secrest visits the women, listens to their worries and asks them what they need. She helps find housing and tries to link them with services.

   During the first few weeks, the mothers were upset, but calm, she said. But as time has passed, the anxiety level has risen, Secrest said. Some of the women are showing signs of post-traumatic stress disorder, such as having flashbacks of the raid on their ranch, she said. The women have no idea when — if ever — they will be permanently reunited with their children.

   “There are so many unknowns right now,” Secrest said. “Usually you know what to expect, but in this case it’s so different.”

   Secrest says she is troubled by what she sees as misconceptions about the FLDS mothers.

   They’re not brainwashed, she says. They’re not zombies. Each woman has her own personality. Some are funny. Some are quiet. All seem strong and independent.

   They don’t see themselves as victims, Secrest said. They see themselves as women with choices.

   “This is the most delightful group of women,” she said. “You can’t put on TV or in the paper how individually funny they are, how kind and generous. They are very, very nice women. I am amazed they have been able to keep their sense of humor the way they have.” …

   Read the piece here …

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3. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.17.08 AT 8:06 AM

   And finally, there’s this:
   

   Caregivers blast Texas’ treatment of polygamous sect’s women, children
   By Julia Lyon, The Salt Lake Tribune
   05/13/2008

   Children living in crowded quarters that led to upper respiratory illnesses. Youngsters plagued with diarrhea from unhealthy foods they usually did not eat. Distressed mothers enduring widespread rudeness – such as flashlights shined in their faces as they tried to sleep.

   Mental health professionals who helped care for FLDS women and children in the weeks after an April raid on the YFZ Ranch describe conditions and treatment they perceived as harsh and unnecessary.

   “Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people,” wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.

   Texas contracts with Hill Country to provide mental health services during disasters. Staff members met with the center’s board of trustees last week, leaving them “spellbound.” The board has gathered nine written statements critical of Child Protective Services.

   Chairman John Kight said he wants state legislators and the governor to hear the employees’ stories. “You have damaged these children for their lives,” he said. “This is an agency that looks like it’s gone out of control.” …

   Read the rest here …

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4. BY Justus331 05.17.08 AT 8:50 AM

   Kristin, my vote goes to Remy Charlip.

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5. BY NJLawyer 05.17.08 AT 9:35 AM

   Frank provides us with “evidence.” Here’s the line that stands out for me: “… the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six.

   Five or six is five or six too many.

   I have no doubt that as the facts come out we may see a different picture than what was originally thought. We also have to wait to find out if those “adult women” were adult women when they were first “married” and when they first gave birth. Moreover, just because these women see themselves as having choices doesn’t mean they do. I reserve judgment until all the evidence is in.

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6. BY EYG 05.17.08 AT 9:53 AM

   Dr.Seuss! I suspected it, but confirmed it with Google.

   That quote could have come from my incredibly creative/inventive daughter!

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7. BY EYG 05.17.08 AT 9:55 AM

   Theodor Seuss Geisel is his real name.

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8. BY Mickey McLean 05.17.08 AT 10:07 AM

   Congratulations, EYG. You’re the Saturday winner of a hot and frothy digital cappuccino:

   ~~0)

   Do you want a little digital cinnamon to sprinkle on top?

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9. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.17.08 AT 11:18 AM

   NJLawyer (5): ” … the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six.”

   Five or six is five or six too many.

   Frank: Keep reading, NJL: “That would amount to about one-fifth of the girls that age found at the ranch — substantially higher than the average rate of teen pregnancies in Texas but a far cry from 60 percent.”

   Your reply sounds eerily similar to the heretofore liberal mantra, “[Fill in the blank] may be an extreme measure, but if it saves even one life, it’s worth it.”

   NJLawyer (5): I have no doubt that as the facts come out we may see a different picture than what was originally thought. … I reserve judgment until all the evidence is in.

   Frank: Woulda been nice if the FLDS families were given the same benefit of the doubt. They have yet to face their accuser. Indeed, the accuser who brought this entire thing about was not the “captive, underage, FLDS teen bride” she presented herself to be, but a false reporter — an adult woman who placed the damning telephone call for help from two states away, who also has a prior record of filing false reports to the police.

   And based upon such flimsey evidence and accusation, 400+ children are rent from their families and religious community?

   NJL, I sincerely hope you’re never on the receiving end of this kind of a false and malicious report that throws your family’s life into upheaval for years to come. Why are you so willing to see other Americans subjected to it?

   Also, let me ask you, as a lawyer and a Christian, and to the best of your knowledge of this case: How has this case met either the legal or the biblical requirements of legal evidence and due process? From where I sit, it seems to be just shot through with gaping holes.

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10. BY Kyle A 05.17.08 AT 11:30 AM

    If there were five or six csaes of abuse, then those cases should have been investigated.

    The children probably don’t even understand what is happening to them. The trauma will probably stay with them for the rest of their lives.

    I think Frank’s question in #9 needs an answer. What about the evidence and the due process?

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11. BY llama 05.17.08 AT 11:41 AM

    Ted Kennedy just had a stroke. Pray for his full recovery.

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12. BY NJLawyer 05.17.08 AT 2:21 PM

    Frank, the worst that has happened to me where the law is concerned is that overzealous cops/parking officers gave me two tickets when I had my sticker on my car and they failed to look, both times dismissed. I am well aware of cops and prosecutors who have overstepped their bounds, I’ve literally seen it, but I’ve also seen judges deal with it, and I have every confidence that the judge here is acting in good faith, certainly in the absence of hearing anything against her abilities as a judge. I will defer to her. She has a tough job with something like 400+ lawyers to deal with, complex legal issues for EACH person involved, but so far, she hasn’t violated due process. I understand your concerns, but as a female who kinda sorta understands rape in a different way than you probably do, I’m in favor of putting an end to the abuse and putting the rapists in the cell(s) next to Warren Jeffs. It’s an unusual case in that it involves so many children. We don’t see that everyday.

    Complex litigation takes time. I understand that there is a hearing coming up. Perhaps you can tell me how the judge and the lawyers in this case were supposed to prepare for something like that over night. How would they take depositions or write briefs over night? Do you have any idea what’s involved here as a practical matter? Do you think DNA tests to determine parentage are done at the snap of the fingers?

    I do have sympathy for the little kids, and I hope they are resilient enough. But so far, as I recall from the news, that young man who testified about his own experiences in the compound before being ejected has provided sufficient supporting evidence of wrongdoing to warrant keeping custody of the children with the state. He was not the only person who testified. You’ve all heard stories in the news regarding the rapes from women who have left the compound, as well as those of other boys who have been ejected, though that is not evidence in the court record (but may be in the future). They’ve had their initial hearing, and what the judge heard made her decide that there’s probable cause. This has to be sorted out methodically to meet due process concerns and that takes time when this many people are involved. That’s the biggest problem here.

    But what I’m gleaning from Frank’s posts is that despite the evidence they do have, he would prefer that the rapes continue while it all gets sorted out. I’m sure those girls appreciate that attitude. The “accuser” has not been found. Is that because she doesn’t exist or is that because she’s dead? Moreover, I doubt the judge who signed the initial warrant relied on that one telephone call alone. Evidently, Frank is willing to take more chances with the other kids than I am.

    —-

    It is sad about Teddy Kennedy, but he’s at that age and there is a family history of stroke. It’s not a happy thing to have to deal with as the patient or the family. Llam’s right. Pray for him.

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13. BY Victoria 05.17.08 AT 2:43 PM

    Sen. Ted Kennedy Hospitalized After Suffering 2 Seizures
    Saturday, May 17, 2008

    Sen. Ted Kennedy has been hospitalized in Boston after apparently suffering two seizures Saturday morning.

    The Massachusetts senator’s current condition is not known, but he does not appear to have had a stroke as was initially suspected.

    One Democratic source told FOX News Kennedy suffered one seizure in the morning, and then another en route to Massachuetts General Hospital, where he is being evaluated.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356497,00.html

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14. BY kBells 05.17.08 AT 3:39 PM

    I just survived the kid’s birthday party number five. This one was touch and go.

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15. BY Chas 05.17.08 AT 4:33 PM

    I just finished reading Safely Home, by Randy Alcorn. VS recommended it, and it
    was a good read. Alcorn uses the novel as a vehicle to describe the conditions faced by the unregistered Christian Church in China, much as Solzhenitsyn did in One day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich to describe gulag conditions in Russia. He describes the persecution and the conditions in which they meet. By inference we can understand what happens in many other places in the world. He also explains why they are unregistered.

    The book isn’t a mystery, we know from the title and fine picture on the facing page, what the outcome is before we start.
    Alcorn begins with a view of Heaven, where Li Quan’s ancestors, who were previously martyred, are watching the events unfold on earth, and predicts two destinies unfolding. There is some speculation, especially at the end, of the happenings in heaven. As I’ve said about other books with descriptions of goings-on in heaven. “I know it isn’t that way, but I don’t know what it is either, so his speculation is as good as mine.” So I don’t mind these kinds of fanciful views of heaven.
    An American executive, Ben Fielding was instrumental in his Chinese student roommate at Harvard, Li Quan, finding Christ. Li Quan returns to China to teach, but isn’t permitted to teach because of his faith. A few years pass, Fielding succeeds in business, but his family and spiritual life crashes; he and Li Quan lose contact. But, Fielding then, for business reasons, spends a few weeks with Li Quan’s family. He inadvertently becomes involved in the happenings of the Chinese church.
    At 400 pages, the book is somewhat longer than it needs to be, but it is well worth the time. It gives a good insight into a world we hear about, sometimes pray about, but really know little about. It’s interesting and enlightening.

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16. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.17.08 AT 4:36 PM

    Kyle A:

    Will Grigg, a Christian (and former Mormon) writer, is blogging on the FLDS/YFZ Ranch incident here:

    http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/search/label/FLDS%20Church

    Newest posts on top, oldest at the bottom.

    Grigg has an acid keyboard, documents his blog posts with numerous links — and carries no brief whatsoever for LDS/FLDS doctrine. But he absolutely deplores the unjust treatment of FLDS — or anybody else — at the hands of another cult that is far more dangerous: the Cult of Caesar (a.k.a., the Almighty State).

    Check him out.

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17. BY Chas 05.17.08 AT 4:47 PM

    I’m sorry to hear about Ted Kennedy. I will pray for him and hope he has a good recovery. On one hand, I would like to see him retire, but I’m not confident that the voters in Mass. would do any better.

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18. BY Karen O 05.17.08 AT 4:48 PM

    And may God save Sen. Kennedy’s soul.

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19. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.17.08 AT 4:58 PM

    NJLawyer (12): … I have every confidence that the judge here is acting in good faith, certainly in the absence of hearing anything against her abilities as a judge.

    Frank: Why does this judge see fit to deny the FLDS women and children — who are under arrest (a helluva way to treat possible “rape victims,” you have to admit) the right to pray together unsupervised?

    And why do the FLDS prsioners’ lawyers need to seek restraining orders to keep nursing children from being removed from their mothers?

    I know I’m asking you to engage in conjecture here, but how do you surmise the judge is serving the “interests of the State” in these matters?

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20. BY Anlir 05.17.08 AT 7:07 PM

    Bottom line, some folk would rather see a 14 year-old girl raped by a 40 year old man to protect their precious libertarian political philosophy. Even one intervention by the authorities (the evil “state”) is one too many for them.

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21. BY KI 05.17.08 AT 7:15 PM

    I would imagine they don’t let the women and children pray together unsupervised to prevent anyone threatening anyone else and/or corroborating testimony. I don’t really think it is unusual in dealing with possible abuse, especially since no one knows who is abusing who in some instances. I am certainly not an expert, but that would seem logical to me. I have no idea why the nursing children would be removed from their mothers.

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22. BY KI 05.17.08 AT 7:18 PM

    Sorry–who is abusing whom.

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23. BY Cheryl D. 05.17.08 AT 11:35 PM

    KI,

    I’m fairly sure nursing children were not removed from their mothers. I heard early on that infants weren’t.

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24. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.17.08 AT 11:46 PM

    Cheryl D,

    I’d recommend you read some of Will Grigg’s posts on the matter. The link is at (16) above.

    Indeed, the State of Texas is reported to have taken a baby that was born to its mother while she was in captivity … um, in prison … er, in “protective custody.” Interestingly enough, the mother is an FLDS woman who is both monogamous, and an adult, 22 years of age. (See my next post below …)

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25. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.18.08 AT 12:19 AM

    Anlir (20): Bottom line, some folk would rather see a 14 year-old girl raped by a 40 year old man to protect their precious libertarian political philosophy. Even one intervention by the authorities (the evil “state”) is one too many for them.

    Frank: Don’t spout off about about “libertarian political philosophy.” You know nothing — no, less than nothing about libertarianism. Exhibit A: You so easily confuse libertarianism with anarchy.

    One of libertarianisms fundamental tenets is the prinicple of non-agression. Another is that government exists to protect the weak against the depradations of the strong.

    So I think I can safely speak for most libertarians when I say that I have absolutely no problem charging and trying your 40-year-old man for raping your 14-year-old girl. If he forced her to have sex with her against her will, it’s forcible rape. If he had consensual sex with her, it’s statutory rape. And if her parents gave her to him in marriage but the laws of the state don’t allow them to do that, then prosecute him and the parents for violation of the state’s marriage laws.

    Regardless, arrest your suspect(s), charge and try them in a court of law according to due process.

    But don’t round up every woman and child of a closed religious community, and then separate the children from the mothers, in the name of protecting an unknown number of “victims” of an unknown number of crimes against them, based on the word of a mysterious anonymous accuser. (Incidentally, Anlir, how comfortable are you with the idea that an anonymous accuser can bring this kind of upheaval upon a closed/separatist religious sect?)

    Why is it that we have yet to hear of the first suspect in one of these heinous crimes being arrested, arraigned, indicted, etc.?

    No, Anlir. The real bottom line is that some folk would prefer to see 40-year-old statutory rapists convicted by due process and in a fair trial, rather than to see the mothers and children of an entire community rounded up and imprisoned — “for their own good,” naturally — apart from due process.

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26. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.18.08 AT 12:49 AM

    Anlir,

    You’ll recall that habeas corpus has been all but eliminated — in the name of the War on Terror — by the Bush administration, right? You and I have both complained loud and long about this atrocity.

    Well, read on …
    

    Child Theft, “Concentration Camps”: It’s Happening Here
    by William N. Grigg
    Wednesday, May 14, 2008

    Even before Dan Jessop’s son was born, the State had already made a proprietary claim to him because of the supposed sins of his parents.

    I say “sins” because as of yet, neither 24-year-old Dan Jessop, Sr., nor his 22-year-old wife Louisa, has been charged with a crime.

    This didn’t prevent the instrument of totalitarian malice called the Texas Department of Child Protective Services from trying to seize control over both the child and his mother as soon as delivery was accomplished.

    The Jessops were granted a restraining order preventing the abduction of their child, but given the depraved resourcefulness of the CPS the Jessop family remains in danger.

    With incorrigible dishonesty comes great tactical flexibility, particularly if the incorrigible party is permitted to ignore the rules, as is the case with the CPS.

    Louisa is one of the “disputed minors” — FLDS women who were originally described by the CPS as underage mothers, despite the insistence of church members and their legal counsel that they were married women of legal age. In many cases, according to FLDS spokesmen, the CPS refused to accept legal documentation establishing the age of the “minor” women in question. Of course, it was the CPS that created the “dispute” by refusing to accept the documents.

    In some circumstances, the CPS told women they had to “admit” being minors in order to remain with their children. Now that at least some of those women have been able to prove, to the satisfaction of the CPS, that they are of legal age, will the agency claim that the earlier deception — you know, the same one abetted by the CPS — somehow illustrates that they aren’t suited to be mothers?

    Lest one think the CPS isn’t capable of such double-jointed deceptiveness, we must remember the sworn testimony of CPS official Angie Voss, who justified the seizure of the children because the YFZ Ranch was such a “scary environment.”

    What made it so “scary”?

    Well, according to Voss, “I heard a report that a tank was coming on the property…. It was a situation of a very huge magnitude with so many law enforcement officers around.”

    She insisted that removing the children from such an environment by force was necessary so that they could be “interviewed” in a setting that wasn’t “so scary and dangerous.”

    Of course, It was the CPS and its allies in “law enforcement” that created the “scary and dangerous” environment that, Voss said, justified the removal of the children.

    …

    Joseph and Lori Jessop are another FLDS couple who sought an emergency injunction against the Texas CPS to protect their son, Joseph Jr. Both Joseph Sr., 27, and Lori, 25, are certified Emergency Medical Technicians. Although the practice of “plural marriage” is widely practiced in the schismatic Mormon sect to which they belong, the Jessops are monogamous. They have three children — four-year-old Zina Glo, two-year-old Joseph Edson, and Joseph Steed Jr., who turns one year old on Thursday.

    The CPS had made plain its intention to celebrate Junior’s first birthday by kidnapping him. They have already laid their violent and criminal hands on the couple’s other children and refuse to let the parents know where they have been sent. The infant has been imprisoned in a children’s home in San Antonio; both parents have relocated there to be near their youngest child. All of their children suffered terribly in the squalid children’s shelter in San Antonio, where they were held immediately after being taken from the YFZ Ranch.

    All of their children are being held by CPS without a court order of any kind. The couple produced the proper documentation — birth certificates and suchlike — to CPS before their children were removed from the Ranch. This deterred the child thieves not one whit.

    Former Nueces County district judge and trial lawyer Rene Haas is representing the parents in filing a writ of habeas corpus to end the unlawful detention of their children. Three other monogamous FLDS fathers — James Dockstader, and Rulon and Leland Keate — have filed a separate habeas corpus petition demanding that they be reunited with their kidnapped children.

    So far, they have succeeded in obtaining an injunction, but they’ve not been reunited with their children. It will be of paramount interest to learn, a year and a half after the Bush Regime effectively killed habeas corpus as a protection against federal abuses, if the Great Writ retains any power to redress abuses of power at the state and local level. I’m not optimistic.

    The Texas CPS, like its analogues in other states, is an entity of truly Lovecraftian evil. Surely that description fits an agency that could send kidnappers to sit — poised and all but salivating — in wait for a child to be born, or an infant to celebrate his first birthday, in order to steal the youngster from the arms of loving parents who have done nothing wrong.

    …

    Attorney Gregory Hession, who specializes in dealing with CPS abuses (which means that he enjoys a thoroughly regrettable form of job security), points out that as long as the Child Thieves have custody of their prey, nothing else matters — not the Constitution, not the law, not rudimentary human decency. The people employed by that entity exist in a State of Nature in which disputes are settled through deception and coercion, not through reason and mutual submission to the law.

    The Texas CPS, having conducted a criminal assault that resulted in the kidnapping of hundreds of children, simply cannot permit the law to prevail. They will keep the children they’ve stolen until they’re quite literally forced to relinquish them to their parents. …

    So don’t attribute false motives and rationales to me, Anlir. If you wish to discuss facts — or even mere news reports — in this case, by all means, please do cite or link to some of them.

    But don’t try to justify the State’s depradations against the FLDS based on your scenario of a 40-year-old man raping a 14-year-old girl, because it simply doesn’t fly.

    At least, not the way the State of Texas is pulling it off.

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27. BY kBells 05.18.08 AT 8:16 AM

    Isn’t it the law that if one child is suspected of being abused you have to take all the children in the household? This just happened to be a really big household.

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28. BY hrw 05.18.08 AT 11:38 AM

    I’m with Frank here.

    The orginal complaint turned out to be false — what grounds do the CPS and the police have for further investigations. If there are individual instances of child brides etc., they have to be dealt with individually. Until the state can present its case sufficiently, they need to stay out.

    the FLDS community in Bountiful, British Columbia has longed been left alone for essentially that reason; the state cannot interfere unless harm is demonstrated and the state has the means to rectify and prevent harm.

    Our (US and Can) legal system is based on individual acts, rights and responsibilities. To hold the group accountable for the illegal behaviour of one or two is indefensible. This is especially true in Canada and Bountiful since our law prevents the prosecution of an individual crime on the entire group committing a joint act. (ie murder in the course of a bank robber, only the trigger man can be prosecuted not the getaway driver) Find the rapists, charge them, and leave the rest alone to practice their religion. If the state can’t prove a crime, leave.

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29. BY Frank in Phoenix 05.18.08 AT 11:42 AM

    KBells,

    Let’s see how that works.

    God has ordained three primary spheres of government, in (I think) the following order:

    - The family/household (which rules with the rod)

    - The civil magistrate/state (which rules with the sword)

    - The church/covenant community (which, in the NT era, rules with the keys, primarily via the communion table)

    Seems that, according to your statement, you equate the household and the church (which, in this case, also equals the neighborhood/local community).

    And you’re happy to give the state the authority to lump them all together because they are wierd and are suspected of engaging in marital/family practices that are outside societal norms?

    Do you have any problem whatsoever with the state calling adult, monogamous FLDS women “minors” for the sake of bolstering their authority and their case against the FLDS?

    Do you really think that it’s okay for the state to call a church (I use the term loosely here) a “household” when it suits them? To call an adult married woman a “disputed minor”?

    I’m the first to admit that this is a comliccated matter. I just don’t think you round up all the women and children of a community — then separate the women from the children — and hold them all against their will “for their own good” because some of them just might be crime victims. (All the while, allowing the suspected perpetrators to remain at large, no less.)

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30. BY NJLawyer 05.18.08 AT 12:02 PM

    Frank, you ARE asking me to engage in conjecture. I don’t know the answers to your questions about Texas law sitting in NJ, and newspaper articles aren’t evidence. I won’t be as blunt as Anlir was in his post to you at 20, but I’m kinda sorta leaning his way. I doubt that this was started with one anonymous phone call because I doubt any judge would issue a warrant based on that alone.

    You know I don’t like big government, and if all the FLDS was doing out there was living a life where women wear prairie clothes and old-fashioned hairdos, I’d be with you. But that’s not what they’re doing! And there is more than rape going on there. The boys are being abused, ejected, and some are trained to rape. We’ve got to get to the bottom of this, and with this large number of people, that’s an enormous task for the court. You must know that law enforcement and the prosecutor’s office isn’t going to try this in the media and that they can’t reveal everything they know publicly until trial. That would taint the jury pool.

    With a problem like this, lots of “unhappy” things will happen like nursing mothers separated from their children. There’s usually a lot more going on than what’s printed in a news article. I think we all have to wait this one out and let the judge do her job step by step. I want her to do that, because I don’t want any rapists getting off on a technicality.

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31. BY NJLawyer 05.18.08 AT 12:15 PM

    HRW — do not confuse British Columbian and/or Canadian law with Texas and/or American law. They are not the same thing. The rules of evidence are different, the statutes are different. (I think you need to review felony murder law, too.)

    Just so you know, the grounds for further investigation by the CPS is those pregnant teenagers.

    The entire group is NOT being charged here, and both you and Frank know it.

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32. BY Kim 05.18.08 AT 12:59 PM

    Hello all. I just got back from my dad’s. He hasn’t eaten in several days and his blood sugar is up around 160. My stepmother had gone out of town for special olympics. She had called him and he wasn’t making sense on the phone. She called me and I went to check. We had discussed whether or not to take him to the ER. He wouldn’t go. She will be back at her house in about 2 hours and then she is coming up to check on him. My ex-husband called and I was trying to tell him about it and he said I was talking over him and he was tired of it and was going to hang up. I really could use some encouragement. I just don’t know how much more I can take. Thanks.

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33. BY NJLawyer 05.18.08 AT 1:33 PM

    Kim, forget your ex-husband on this one. He doesn’t get it. Don’t waste your time. With respect to the unwillingness to go to the hospital, I’ve had some experience(s) with that. My father often refused to go to the hospital, but after one particular stroke, he realized he could die from this, he was more willing to go after that. When they get scared enough, they go. Evidently, your dad doesn’t understand his sugar problem. It sounds as if he had an insulin reaction. That requires food. If you are there and he won’t eat, call the paramedics. He’ll either eat for them, or when he passes out, they can give him glucose. He needs to be monitored when your stepmother goes out of town. I know that they’re stubborn about the hospital, about eating, but that’s when you have to become “mean.” I had to lie to my dad by telling him if he’d take the medicine, I’d take him home. The medicine was a knockout shot so they could do a cat-scan. He was angry, but he got over it. This is role reversal. You will now become the “parent.” It’s hard not to get upset, but remember that “all men are alike.” My father and my judge, very different men, both told me the same thing when hospitalized: “they took my pants.” Men don’t like not being in charge, not being independent. No one’s gonna tell them, so to speak. You must learn to tell your dad that it’s too bad so sad time, this is what he’s gonna do. In time, he will resist less.

    You are in my prayers! If I could give you a big hug, I would.

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34. BY hrw 05.18.08 AT 1:46 PM

    31 — I know there is a difference which is why I brought it up; as a matter of compare and contrast. It appears you and others here favor community responsibility (as practiced by Texas) whereas I, the socialist, with Frank the libertarian favor individual responsibility (as practiced in B.C.). Given the stereotypes on this blog this is highly ironic.

    Since the entire group is not being charged — why is the entire group being investigated and separated?

    The US use of felony murder charges extends responsibility far more than any other country and is a disproportionate response to the individual’s responsibility for the murder.

    see http://tinyurl.com/5u8z47 A NYT article detailing how lending a criminal your car could result in life imprisonment.

    This notion of joint responsibility may explain the actions of Texas in holding the entire community responsible but lets not pretend that this is not a disproportionate response.

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35. BY kBells 05.18.08 AT 3:58 PM

    Frank, I was just asking a question. For example; if a woman and her daughter were living with a sister and her family and one of the sister’s children was suspected of being abused would they take the woman’s daughter as well? I;m asking what the law is in this situation.

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36. BY Kim 05.18.08 AT 5:19 PM

    Life is better. Thanks

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37. BY Karen O 05.18.08 AT 6:29 PM

    Kim (& others with older parents)-

    Next time something like this happens, or if there is any question of him maybe needing medical attention…

    CALL 911.

    Many elderly think that maybe they’ll drive themselves to the hospital or maybe they’ll just “wait & see”. I’ve been told that it is best to call 911 & let the paramedics deal with it (as NJL mentioned).

    It takes the onus off of your shoulders, too.

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38. BY Anlir 05.18.08 AT 11:07 PM

    Frank,

    I do indeed know Libertarian politics, and it’s ultimately an extremist ideology, much like Marxism. It has attracted a small but rabid following in America. While I know my comments will probably outrage you, I really don’t give a rat’s behind.

    What I do care about is protecting children from abuse. Given the insular community and it’s cult-like operations, the Texas authorities did what what necessary to protect the children. Were mistakes make? Yes. But I’d still rather have a mistake made in favor or the children than not.

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39. BY hrw 05.18.08 AT 11:43 PM

    Anlir I have to disagree with you here. To remain consistent in my criticism of the Patriot Act, I would also have to criticize the Texas authorities. In both cases guilt by association (Muslim or FLDS) and a presumption of guilt (terrorism or child abuse) is allowed in the guise of protecting the people. The notion of collective responsibility is not democratic. Frequently, people post here for the need of Muslim moderates to be more active as if its their responsibility that their co-believers are more extremist similarly here the Texas authorities arrest and separate the total group as if its the group’s responsibility to ensure there are no child brides and forced marriages.

    Similarly, the notion of felony murder or the plethora of RICO type laws, ie conspiracy, allowing the US authorities to arrest anyone with slightest connection to perpetrators and allow the courts (or more likely plea bargains) to sort it out.

    Both examples point to a society that is consumed internally by its police-corrections industry.

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40. BY Victoria 05.19.08 AT 12:34 AM

    I have missed Lynn, I hope she comes back soon.

    Let’s keep Lynn in prayer, this must be a difficult time for her. She has contributed so much to this blog.

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41. BY Anlir 05.19.08 AT 10:05 AM

    HRW,

    The bottom line with this matter is that underage girls were forced to marry older men. While you may think that’s acceptable, most people think it’s appalling.

    I agree with you on the Patriot Act though.

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42. BY hrw 05.19.08 AT 1:13 PM

    The bottom line Anlir is some people who weren’t underage and didn’t force children to marry old men were also included in the large net the authorities decided to cast. Its the concept of group responsibility — the same concept which leads people to arrest a bunch of Afghan and Arabs, transport them to Gitmo and then wait five – seven years while the authorities sort them out. Of course I am against terrorism and am against child brides but the ends do not justify the means.

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43. BY NJLawyer 05.19.08 AT 2:04 PM

    That being interpreted, HRW is: So, let the girls be raped.

    This is not about favoring “community or group responsibility.” It is about stopping the crime in progress and sorting it out. That’s not easy when dealing with an insular society where everyone is so intermingled. As I understand it, men were not arrested and not all the women were removed from the compound.

    So, tell me, how would you determine who did what in this situation, and be specific. Give me your plan. It sounds like you are willing to leave abused children in the custody of potential abusers while you figure it out.

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44. BY Anlir 05.19.08 AT 2:08 PM

    HRW,

    I don’t know how much this has been covered up in Canada, but it’s received a good bit of coverage in the States. This is a closed community, that wouldn’t let outsiders in, and very cult-like in it’s thinking and actions. The child brides were not permitted to talk to the authorities and the members of the group denied it was happening. Given all that, how was Texas supposed to deal with the situation?

    The bottom line is, in America the authorities (including teachers) are obligated by law to act if they have a reasonable belief that abuse or neglect is taking place. The law falls on the side of protecting the child, since they are the most vulnerable. Do the authorities screw up sometimes? Sure. That’s what the judicial and legislative system is there for – to keep them in check. Sometimes you have to act in the best interest of the child and sort it out later.

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45. BY hrw 05.19.08 AT 2:22 PM

    It sounds like you are willing to leave abused children in the custody of potential abusers while you figure it out.

    Potential is the key word you use. Similarly do we arrest potential thieves, potential murderers,etc. Its this tendency that leads to a police state mentality where we arrest based on religious, ethnicity, colour etc in the guise of protection. After all if you have nothing to hide, why not let the state takeover.

    Anlir
    google Bountiful, British Columbia — we have our own FLDS community. Until an individual is identified, the police can only investigate within the constraints of the law. As soon as abuse is noted, the authoroties are obligated to act to protect the individual that is being abused. And then continue to investigate. Its a slow and frustrating process but to do otherwise is to give up freedom for the suffocating protection of the state.

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46. BY Anlir 05.19.08 AT 3:46 PM

    HRW,

    And how is the abuse supposed to be “noted”, when the child bride (or anyone in the group) is forbidden to report it and the police are not allowed in to investigate?

    The FDLS compound in Texas is out in the middle of nowhere. Most of the children have never been off the compound or had any contact with the outside world. They have no access to a phone or computer. So how is a child supposed to report their abuse? By carrier pigeon?

    Even in the open society of America and Canada it’s very difficult for child abuse to be brought forward. If we’ve learned anything from the Catholic Church scandals, it’s that abuse stretches back for decades, yet is just now being discovered.

    Perhaps there’s a significant difference between Canada’s laws and the US’s laws. In the US, teachers, physicians, etc. are mandated by law to report suspicions of child abuse, and the authorities are required to investigate. Given that you’re a teacher, I’m just astounded at your callous attitude toward this issue.

    You worry about the possibility of a police state. I worry about the reality of child abuse and neglect. The fact is, in America anyway, the vast majority of child abuse and neglect is unreported and uninvestigated.

    Pity the DHS workers. If they investigate suspected child abuse, they’re berated for acting like a “police state”. If they don’t investigate and a child is abused or dies, they’re berated for falling down on the job. Just like teachers, the vast majority of them are trying to do the best they can. They’re doing the job because they want to protect children.

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47. BY Victoria 05.19.08 AT 4:02 PM

    Breitbart

    Officials: 31 of 53 girls from sect ranch have been pregnant

    Apr 28 03:45 PM US/Eastern
    By MICHELLE ROBERTS
    Associated Press Writer

    SAN ANTONIO (AP) – Texas child welfare officials say more than half the teen girls swept into state custody from a polygamist sect’s ranch have been pregnant.

    Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.

    Officials: 31 of 53 girls from sect ranch have been pregnant

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48. BY Victoria 05.19.08 AT 4:25 PM

    Texas says 41 FLDS children have broken bones, fractures

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49. BY hrw 05.19.08 AT 9:43 PM

    Anlir — I am mandated by law to report abuse as is many other professions yet this doesn’t mean I advocate reporting the entire housing project for the abuse of some families.

    The FLDS communities are not entirely isolated — they use physicians, outside contractors, utility companies, nursing agencies, medical facilities, etc. Common police work can established enough just cause to investigate individuals. Interview the “lost boys” and the police will learn sufficient information about the community.

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50. BY Victoria 05.19.08 AT 9:56 PM

    HRW,

    You might not be aware, however Mormons use their own doctors, dentists, and any other people such as contractors, nursing, etc.

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51. BY Anlir 05.20.08 AT 12:41 AM

    HRW,

    Mayhe the community in Canada uses outside contractors, etc. But the community in Texas was almost completely self-sustaining, venturing into town occasionally for supplies and to sell some of their wares. The children are schooled on the compound. The compound has their own doctor, dentist, clinic, general store, and other amenities. You could neither get in or outwithout

    But really, HRW, I’d like to see you spend sometime in a local Family Court and observe the unimaginable abuse and neglect that daily overwhlems the systemn. I’d like you to look into the eyes of a trembling 12 year old girl who’s daddy has been raping her. Then get back to me about your worries of a police state.

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52. BY Victoria 05.20.08 AT 1:02 AM

    Anlir, we so rarely agree, but this time we do.

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