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Morning!
In honor of Memorial Day weekend, today’s quote is from a song: “And I’m proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free. And I won’t forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.”
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God bless the U.S.A. by Lee Greenwood.
I’ve sung that tune at a church function for the 4th of July a few years ago.
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When I lived in Connecticut, I used to go to the Grove Street cemetary on memorial Days. Many great Americans were buried there:
* Roger Shermon (sign three primary founding documents).
* Noah Webster (a primary “cultural” founder of Aerica and education reformer).
* Eli Whitney (whose cotton gin changed the country profoundly).
I forget the other famous names, but one grave stone told of a man shot in the back while in his house by a British soldier during the War for Independence.
Here in Minnesota, I spent one Memeorial Day at the Lakewood cemetary where Hubert Humphrey and Paul Wellstone and my wife’s uncle are buried. Also, some Civil War soldiers from the ‘First Minnesota’ are buried here. We were told they stood up to Picket’s charge and were the bravest regimet in American history (or at least tied for that honor).
on Memeorial Day, there are no Democrats or Republicans.
I love this country.
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I post today from the “business center” of a Hampton Inn in Dallas’ futuristic uber-burb, Frisco. (One niece will marry later today and her young cousins–Tess and Helena– will be flower girls).
I just read a tribute to the fallen CIA operative, Johnny Mike Spann. It is at NATIONAL REVIEW dotcom. You should all read it.
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I love the sentiment, but I can’t stand that song! I’m hoping that we sing something patriotic in church this weekend, but my pastor seems to be in “citizen of the world” mode.
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K #4- Like all popular songs now-a-days, this one is overused. I used to like “God Bless America”, but since it is now the substitute national anthem, I would rather not hear it at every event, whether patriotic or athletic.
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Another Memorial Day exercise has been to go downtown to Veterans Park and read all the names of those who died: WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam…
Saying each name aloud, letting the sound split the air, I wondered when was the last time any one else had said their name at all? At least once a year, memory needs a voice.
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A friend of mine who was a POW in Vietnam for seven and a half years, will sit on his back patio on Monday. He will sit alone and think and remember and then say aloud all the names of his buddies who never came home. Memorial Day for him is a very private moment. He has gone to public observances, but said he “only connects there with the few who understand.” Though he said he appreciates the sentiment.
Oh, and come November, he’ll vote for John McCain, “Not because we were in the Hanoi Hilton together. And not because I’m real crazy about his form of Republicanism, but because there is a vast amount of things Obama does not get. The Democrats lost a lot when they lost Hillary.”
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Justus331: Enjoy your virtual coffee of the day!
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I’m very glad we don’t sing songs about America at my church. We’re patriotic as individuals, but the church is for allegiance to God. American flags and patriotic songs simply don’t belong (and people from other countries are horrified when they see that nost of our churches have American flags in the sanctuary).
Monday we will have a church picnic, though, and nearly everyone will come.
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I love the idea of saying the names of veteran’s who have died in defense of this country out loud.
In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918)
Canadian Army
IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
——————————————————————————–
McCrae’s “In Flanders Fields” remains to this day one of the most memorable war poems ever written. It is a lasting legacy of the terrible battle in the Ypres salient in the spring of 1915. Here is the story of the making of that poem:
Although he had been a doctor for years and had served in the South African War, it was impossible to get used to the suffering, the screams, and the blood here, and Major John McCrae had seen and heard enough in his dressing station to last him a lifetime.
As a surgeon attached to the 1st Field Artillery Brigade, Major McCrae, who had joined the McGill faculty in 1900 after graduating from the University of Toronto, had spent seventeen days treating injured men — Canadians, British, Indians, French, and Germans — in the Ypres salient.
It had been an ordeal that he had hardly thought possible. McCrae later wrote of it:
“I wish I could embody on paper some of the varied sensations of that seventeen days… Seventeen days of Hades! At the end of the first day if anyone had told us we had to spend seventeen days there, we would have folded our hands and said it could not have been done.”
One death particularly affected McCrae. A young friend and former student, Lieut. Alexis Helmer of Ottawa, had been killed by a shell burst on 2 May 1915. Lieutenant Helmer was buried later that day in the little cemetery outside McCrae’s dressing station, and McCrae had performed the funeral ceremony in the absence of the chaplain.
The next day, sitting on the back of an ambulance parked near the dressing station beside the Canal de l’Yser, just a few hundred yards north of Ypres, McCrae vented his anguish by composing a poem. The major was no stranger to writing, having authored several medical texts besides dabbling in poetry.
In the nearby cemetery, McCrae could see the wild poppies that sprang up in the ditches in that part of Europe, and he spent twenty minutes of precious rest time scribbling fifteen lines of verse in a notebook.
A young soldier watched him write it. Cyril Allinson, a twenty-two year old sergeant-major, was delivering mail that day when he spotted McCrae. The major looked up as Allinson approached, then went on writing while the sergeant-major stood there quietly. “His face was very tired but calm as we wrote,” Allinson recalled. “He looked around from time to time, his eyes straying to Helmer’s grave.”
When McCrae finished five minutes later, he took his mail from Allinson and, without saying a word, handed his pad to the young NCO. Allinson was moved by what he read:
“The poem was exactly an exact description of the scene in front of us both. He used the word blow in that line because the poppies actually were being blown that morning by a gentle east wind. It never occurred to me at that time that it would ever be published. It seemed to me just an exact description of the scene.”
In fact, it was very nearly not published. Dissatisfied with it, McCrae tossed the poem away, but a fellow officer retrieved it and sent it to newspapers in England. The Spectator, in London, rejected it, but Punch published it on 8 December 1915.
Thanks to Mack Welford for reminding me of this great poem.
Updated: 11 September 2004
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I love the idea of saying aloud the names of those who have died in defense of out country.
In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918)
Canadian Army
IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
——————————————————————————–
McCrae’s “In Flanders Fields” remains to this day one of the most memorable war poems ever written. It is a lasting legacy of the terrible battle in the Ypres salient in the spring of 1915. Here is the story of the making of that poem:
Although he had been a doctor for years and had served in the South African War, it was impossible to get used to the suffering, the screams, and the blood here, and Major John McCrae had seen and heard enough in his dressing station to last him a lifetime.
As a surgeon attached to the 1st Field Artillery Brigade, Major McCrae, who had joined the McGill faculty in 1900 after graduating from the University of Toronto, had spent seventeen days treating injured men — Canadians, British, Indians, French, and Germans — in the Ypres salient.
It had been an ordeal that he had hardly thought possible. McCrae later wrote of it:
“I wish I could embody on paper some of the varied sensations of that seventeen days… Seventeen days of Hades! At the end of the first day if anyone had told us we had to spend seventeen days there, we would have folded our hands and said it could not have been done.”
One death particularly affected McCrae. A young friend and former student, Lieut. Alexis Helmer of Ottawa, had been killed by a shell burst on 2 May 1915. Lieutenant Helmer was buried later that day in the little cemetery outside McCrae’s dressing station, and McCrae had performed the funeral ceremony in the absence of the chaplain.
The next day, sitting on the back of an ambulance parked near the dressing station beside the Canal de l’Yser, just a few hundred yards north of Ypres, McCrae vented his anguish by composing a poem. The major was no stranger to writing, having authored several medical texts besides dabbling in poetry.
In the nearby cemetery, McCrae could see the wild poppies that sprang up in the ditches in that part of Europe, and he spent twenty minutes of precious rest time scribbling fifteen lines of verse in a notebook.
A young soldier watched him write it. Cyril Allinson, a twenty-two year old sergeant-major, was delivering mail that day when he spotted McCrae. The major looked up as Allinson approached, then went on writing while the sergeant-major stood there quietly. “His face was very tired but calm as we wrote,” Allinson recalled. “He looked around from time to time, his eyes straying to Helmer’s grave.”
When McCrae finished five minutes later, he took his mail from Allinson and, without saying a word, handed his pad to the young NCO. Allinson was moved by what he read:
“The poem was exactly an exact description of the scene in front of us both. He used the word blow in that line because the poppies actually were being blown that morning by a gentle east wind. It never occurred to me at that time that it would ever be published. It seemed to me just an exact description of the scene.”
In fact, it was very nearly not published. Dissatisfied with it, McCrae tossed the poem away, but a fellow officer retrieved it and sent it to newspapers in England. The Spectator, in London, rejected it, but Punch published it on 8 December 1915.
Thanks to Mack Welford for reminding me of this great poem.
Updated: 11 September 2004
Report comment to moderator
In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918)
Canadian Army
IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
——————————————————————————–
McCrae’s “In Flanders Fields” remains to this day one of the most memorable war poems ever written. It is a lasting legacy of the terrible battle in the Ypres salient in the spring of 1915. Here is the story of the making of that poem:
Although he had been a doctor for years and had served in the South African War, it was impossible to get used to the suffering, the screams, and the blood here, and Major John McCrae had seen and heard enough in his dressing station to last him a lifetime.
As a surgeon attached to the 1st Field Artillery Brigade, Major McCrae, who had joined the McGill faculty in 1900 after graduating from the University of Toronto, had spent seventeen days treating injured men — Canadians, British, Indians, French, and Germans — in the Ypres salient.
It had been an ordeal that he had hardly thought possible. McCrae later wrote of it:
“I wish I could embody on paper some of the varied sensations of that seventeen days… Seventeen days of Hades! At the end of the first day if anyone had told us we had to spend seventeen days there, we would have folded our hands and said it could not have been done.”
One death particularly affected McCrae. A young friend and former student, Lieut. Alexis Helmer of Ottawa, had been killed by a shell burst on 2 May 1915. Lieutenant Helmer was buried later that day in the little cemetery outside McCrae’s dressing station, and McCrae had performed the funeral ceremony in the absence of the chaplain.
The next day, sitting on the back of an ambulance parked near the dressing station beside the Canal de l’Yser, just a few hundred yards north of Ypres, McCrae vented his anguish by composing a poem. The major was no stranger to writing, having authored several medical texts besides dabbling in poetry.
In the nearby cemetery, McCrae could see the wild poppies that sprang up in the ditches in that part of Europe, and he spent twenty minutes of precious rest time scribbling fifteen lines of verse in a notebook.
A young soldier watched him write it. Cyril Allinson, a twenty-two year old sergeant-major, was delivering mail that day when he spotted McCrae. The major looked up as Allinson approached, then went on writing while the sergeant-major stood there quietly. “His face was very tired but calm as we wrote,” Allinson recalled. “He looked around from time to time, his eyes straying to Helmer’s grave.”
When McCrae finished five minutes later, he took his mail from Allinson and, without saying a word, handed his pad to the young NCO. Allinson was moved by what he read:
“The poem was exactly an exact description of the scene in front of us both. He used the word blow in that line because the poppies actually were being blown that morning by a gentle east wind. It never occurred to me at that time that it would ever be published. It seemed to me just an exact description of the scene.”
In fact, it was very nearly not published. Dissatisfied with it, McCrae tossed the poem away, but a fellow officer retrieved it and sent it to newspapers in England. The Spectator, in London, rejected it, but Punch published it on 8 December 1915.
Thanks to Mack Welford for reminding me of this great poem.
Updated: 11 September 2004
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My husband is a Vietnam Vet and he appreciates the parades, the service at the cemeteries and all that goes along with it, but then we have a friend who also wants to be alone and reflective on that day.
Cheryl, I’ve never heard anyone admit that but since you were brave enough to do so, I will confess that I feel that way as well. And my church has an American flag in front and they will sing a patriotic song or two. It isn’t offensive enough to keep me from attending or to even say anything to anyone but I agree that the church is for allegiance to Him.
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I have tried to post this several times and it would not post:
In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918)
Canadian Army
IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
——————————————————————————–
McCrae’s “In Flanders Fields” remains to this day one of the most memorable war poems ever written. It is a lasting legacy of the terrible battle in the Ypres salient in the spring of 1915. Here is the story of the making of that poem:
Although he had been a doctor for years and had served in the South African War, it was impossible to get used to the suffering, the screams, and the blood here, and Major John McCrae had seen and heard enough in his dressing station to last him a lifetime.
As a surgeon attached to the 1st Field Artillery Brigade, Major McCrae, who had joined the McGill faculty in 1900 after graduating from the University of Toronto, had spent seventeen days treating injured men — Canadians, British, Indians, French, and Germans — in the Ypres salient.
It had been an ordeal that he had hardly thought possible. McCrae later wrote of it:
“I wish I could embody on paper some of the varied sensations of that seventeen days… Seventeen days of Hades! At the end of the first day if anyone had told us we had to spend seventeen days there, we would have folded our hands and said it could not have been done.”
One death particularly affected McCrae. A young friend and former student, Lieut. Alexis Helmer of Ottawa, had been killed by a shell burst on 2 May 1915. Lieutenant Helmer was buried later that day in the little cemetery outside McCrae’s dressing station, and McCrae had performed the funeral ceremony in the absence of the chaplain.
The next day, sitting on the back of an ambulance parked near the dressing station beside the Canal de l’Yser, just a few hundred yards north of Ypres, McCrae vented his anguish by composing a poem. The major was no stranger to writing, having authored several medical texts besides dabbling in poetry.
In the nearby cemetery, McCrae could see the wild poppies that sprang up in the ditches in that part of Europe, and he spent twenty minutes of precious rest time scribbling fifteen lines of verse in a notebook.
A young soldier watched him write it. Cyril Allinson, a twenty-two year old sergeant-major, was delivering mail that day when he spotted McCrae. The major looked up as Allinson approached, then went on writing while the sergeant-major stood there quietly. “His face was very tired but calm as we wrote,” Allinson recalled. “He looked around from time to time, his eyes straying to Helmer’s grave.”
When McCrae finished five minutes later, he took his mail from Allinson and, without saying a word, handed his pad to the young NCO. Allinson was moved by what he read:
“The poem was exactly an exact description of the scene in front of us both. He used the word blow in that line because the poppies actually were being blown that morning by a gentle east wind. It never occurred to me at that time that it would ever be published. It seemed to me just an exact description of the scene.”
In fact, it was very nearly not published. Dissatisfied with it, McCrae tossed the poem away, but a fellow officer retrieved it and sent it to newspapers in England. The Spectator, in London, rejected it, but Punch published it on 8 December 1915.
Thanks to Mack Welford for reminding me of this great poem.
Updated: 11 September 2004
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Cheryl D wrote; “American flags and patriotic songs simply don’t belong [at church]…”
I disagree strongly. Gratitude is a Christian virtue if there ever was one and gratitude does belong in church, in most any form that it is sincere.
Cheryl D wrote, “(and people from other countries are horrified when they see that nost of our churches have American flags in the sanctuary).”
So wrong! At least in my experience. Our church has welcomed a large number of first generation Liberian refugees. They came here excaping horrific persicution and they work hard and love America with a deeper passion than most natives could imagine.
Once I told a Liberian-American member that she makes America better by coming here (legally, mind you) and I am glad we have welcomed legal immigrants. I continued to say that “I know America is not perfect…”
She stopped me and said to her pastor, “No, America is perfect.”
I will never forget that (even if I don’t quite agree with her technically).
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Patriotism at church is not out of place, but I respect any church’s right to draw their own lines. We keep it subtle and sincere.
Patriotism at church should be a matter of gratitude (a Christian quality). We can share in that virtue together in public and be grateful for America and those who sacrificed to keep us free. This can be done in a non-partisan manner.
This is gratitude, not idolatry, and pastors should make that clear.
I liked the picnic idea Cheryl mentioned. I respect church’s choices, but I disagreed with Cheryl’s claim that symbols of gratitude “don’t belong” at church. We are free in Christ to have or not have such symbols but I think it’s wrong to criticize those who do have them.
There is not enough graitude going around these days.
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I had something I tried to post for Memorial Day and I could preview it but it never would post. Anyone else having trouble?
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I understand and appreciate the points you’ve made Joel. Thank you.
I asked a question on a family site about this – my one aunt replied, “If it wasn’t for Old Glory we wouldn’t have the freedom to worship in our churches here in America.” (She has 4 retired military sons.)
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Continuing my unintentional hijacking of Rants and Raves yesterday, my daughter and I visited Best Buy today and asked a young male clerk for the difference between a Mac and a PC with Vista.
“No contest. Buy a Mac,” and he went on to extol the virtues of not having to worry about virus protection, an extremely stable system which doesn’t crash and on and on.
My teenager, who apparently knew about all these features, was enthusiastic but what shocked me was the entire computer was the same size as the 18 inch monitor I’m looking at right now. No tower, no million cords. You connect the mouse and keyboard and then plug the thing into the wall. Apple at your service.
Impressive, I’m leaning . . . but Dr. Phil’s look alike will make the final call.
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And on another matter mentioned on yesterday’s Whirled Views, we saw the Indiana Jones movie last night. My daughter’s comment cracked us up: “Wow, I’ve never seen an Indiana Jones movie at a theater.”
That being said, other than Harrison Ford’s clever rips on his age and allusions to past movies, this was awful. No story to speak of and my husband and I both felt the film makers were simply sloppy in putting this together.
I saw error after error–first Marian wore a necklace and two minutes later it was missing; they were soaked to their ears in one water scene after another, and then mysteriously dry within minutes. You had to suspend so much imagination it was hard to realize you might be in a movie theater.
Or, as my colleague put it, “this felt like Indiana Jones meets CSI and the writers quit midway through.”
My advice: wait until video, if even then.
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John McCain “appears” to be cancer free because his last cancer surgery was in February of this year. Interesting this didn’t make news.
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Clever Minnesotans
Saints promotion: Not quite a bobblehead
Sunday’s giveaway is a miniature bathroom stall with a couple of lower legs and feet – a spoof on the airport episode involving Idaho Republican Sen. Larry Craig at the Twin Cities airport mens room last summer.
The keepsakes consist of a miniature bathroom stall with a couple of lower legs and feet. One of the feet is springloaded and “taps,” which, the Saints’ press release says, is in honor of National Tap Dance Day.
Right.
The team also takes pains to note: “It doesn’t matter if your tapping style is done with a ‘wide stance’ or is used as some sort of code.”
That’s a none-too-subtle reference to Idaho Republican Sen. Larry Craig, who pleaded guilty to a charge of disorderly conduct after an undercover police officer arrested him for allegedly soliciting sex in a mens room stall at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.
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#16
Not sure what news your pick up, but the LA Times covered it, as did the AP, Reuters and the BBC.
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Godlumps,
Guess you should have been more specific about just how much of Mrs. McCain’s tax info was released!
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4922703
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I love the idea of saying the names of the dead out loud. I wonder sometimes when the last time was that their name was spoken aloud…
In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918)
Canadian Army
IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
——————————————————————————–
McCrae’s “In Flanders Fields” remains to this day one of the most memorable war poems ever written. It is a lasting legacy of the terrible battle in the Ypres salient in the spring of 1915. Here is the story of the making of that poem:
Although he had been a doctor for years and had served in the South African War, it was impossible to get used to the suffering, the screams, and the blood here, and Major John McCrae had seen and heard enough in his dressing station to last him a lifetime.
As a surgeon attached to the 1st Field Artillery Brigade, Major McCrae, who had joined the McGill faculty in 1900 after graduating from the University of Toronto, had spent seventeen days treating injured men — Canadians, British, Indians, French, and Germans — in the Ypres salient.
It had been an ordeal that he had hardly thought possible. McCrae later wrote of it:
“I wish I could embody on paper some of the varied sensations of that seventeen days… Seventeen days of Hades! At the end of the first day if anyone had told us we had to spend seventeen days there, we would have folded our hands and said it could not have been done.”
One death particularly affected McCrae. A young friend and former student, Lieut. Alexis Helmer of Ottawa, had been killed by a shell burst on 2 May 1915. Lieutenant Helmer was buried later that day in the little cemetery outside McCrae’s dressing station, and McCrae had performed the funeral ceremony in the absence of the chaplain.
The next day, sitting on the back of an ambulance parked near the dressing station beside the Canal de l’Yser, just a few hundred yards north of Ypres, McCrae vented his anguish by composing a poem. The major was no stranger to writing, having authored several medical texts besides dabbling in poetry.
In the nearby cemetery, McCrae could see the wild poppies that sprang up in the ditches in that part of Europe, and he spent twenty minutes of precious rest time scribbling fifteen lines of verse in a notebook.
A young soldier watched him write it. Cyril Allinson, a twenty-two year old sergeant-major, was delivering mail that day when he spotted McCrae. The major looked up as Allinson approached, then went on writing while the sergeant-major stood there quietly. “His face was very tired but calm as we wrote,” Allinson recalled. “He looked around from time to time, his eyes straying to Helmer’s grave.”
When McCrae finished five minutes later, he took his mail from Allinson and, without saying a word, handed his pad to the young NCO. Allinson was moved by what he read:
“The poem was exactly an exact description of the scene in front of us both. He used the word blow in that line because the poppies actually were being blown that morning by a gentle east wind. It never occurred to me at that time that it would ever be published. It seemed to me just an exact description of the scene.”
In fact, it was very nearly not published. Dissatisfied with it, McCrae tossed the poem away, but a fellow officer retrieved it and sent it to newspapers in England. The Spectator, in London, rejected it, but Punch published it on 8 December 1915.
Thanks to Mack Welford for reminding me of this great poem.
Updated: 11 September 2004
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Joel Mark,
Yes, gratitude is a Christian virtue. I’d have no problem at all with a pastor praying and thanking God for our freedoms, reminding us to vote and giving us some biblical principles, that sort of thing.
But I have heard that people from other countries are sometimes shocked at flags in our churches–it feels like idolatry to them. (I personally don’t like Christmas trees or VBS decorations in the sanctuary, either, though I can’t prove from Scripture that it’s wrong.) And I don’t think we should sing songs about our allegiance to America–a song that a citizen from another land can’t join in on. We don’t leave our citizenship at the door, but the worship service is about God and not country. I’d be all for singing patriotic songs at tomorrow’s picnice–just not as part of Sunday worship.
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. . . or, rather, at Monday’s picnic.
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Cheryl D.,
I feel as you do.
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I agree about patriotic songs in church EXCEPT for this one… The only two places I have ever heard it was at the Naval Academy and at my Episcopal church. It always, always, makes me cry. I even like that added verses and would not have a problem with it being sung tomorrow morning.
Eternal Father, Strong to Save
Our Navy Hymn
The “Navy Hymn” is Eternal Father, Strong to Save. The original words were written as a poem in 1860 by William Whiting of Winchester, England, for a student who was about to sail for the United States. The melody, published in 1861, was composed by fellow Englishman, Rev. John Bacchus Dykes, an Episcopalian clergyman.
The hymn, found in most hymnals, is known as the “Navy hymn” because it is sung at the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland. It is also sung on ships of the Royal Navy (U.K.) and has been translated into French.
Eternal Father was the favorite hymn of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and was sung at his funeral in Hyde Park, New York, in April 1945. It was also played by the Navy Band in 1963 as President John F. Kennedy’s body was carried up the steps of the U.S. Capitol to lie in state. Roosevelt had served as Secretary of the Navy and Kennedy was a PT boat commander in World War II.
Listen to the Sea Chanters chorus sing Eternal Father (987kb).
The original words are: Eternal Father, strong to save,
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,
Who bidd’st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea! Most Holy Spirit! Who didst brood
Upon the chaos dark and rude,
And bid its angry tumult cease,
And give, for wild confusion, peace;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!
O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard
And hushed their raging at Thy word,
Who walked’st on the foaming deep,
And calm amidst its rage didst sleep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea! O Trinity of love and power!
Our brethren shield in danger’s hour;
From rock and tempest, fire and foe,
Protect them wheresoe’er they go;
Thus evermore shall rise to Thee
Glad hymns of praise from land and sea.
There are have been alternate verses. These and their authors are: Lord, guard and guide the men who fly
Through the great spaces in the sky.
Be with them always in the air,
In darkening storms or sunlight fair;
Oh, hear us when we lift our prayer,
For those in peril in the air!
Mary C. D. Hamilton (1915)
Oh, Watchful Father who dost keep
Eternal vigil while we sleep
Guide those who navigate on high
Who through grave unknown perils fly,
Receive our oft-repeated prayer
For those in peril in the air.
Emma Mayhew Whiting (1943)
Eternal Father, grant, we pray,
To all Marines, both night and day,
The courage, honor, strength, and skill
Their land to serve, thy law fulfill;
Be thou the shield forevermore
From every peril to the Corps.
J. E. Seim (1966)
Lord, stand beside the men who build,
And give them courage, strength, and skill.
O grant them peace of heart and mind,
And comfort loved ones left behind.
Lord, hear our prayers for all Seabees,
Where’er they be on land or sea.
R. J. Dietrich (1960)
Lord God, our power evermore,
Whose arm doth reach the ocean floor,
Dive with our men beneath the sea;
Traverse the depths protectively.
O hear us when we pray, and keep
Them safe from peril in the deep.
David B. Miller (1965) O God, protect the women who,
In service, faith in thee renew;
O guide devoted hands of skill
And bless their work within thy will;
Inspire their lives that they may be
Examples fair on land and sea.
Lines 1-4, Merle E. Strickland (1972) and
adapted by James D. Shannon (1973)
Lines 5-6, Beatrice M. Truitt (1948)
Creator, Father, who dost show
Thy splendor in the ice and snow,
Bless those who toil in summer light
And through the cold antarctic night,
As they thy frozen wonders learn;
Bless those who wait for their return.
L. E. Vogel (1965) Eternal Father, Lord of hosts,
Watch o’er the men who guard our coasts.
Protect them from the raging seas
And give them light and life and peace.
Grant them from thy great throne above
The shield and shelter of thy love.
Author unknown
Eternal Father, King of birth,
Who didst create the heaven and earth,
And bid the planets and the sun
Their own appointed orbits run;
O hear us when we seek thy grace
For those who soar through outer space.
J. E. Volonte (1961) Creator, Father, who first breathed
In us the life that we received,
By power of thy breath restore
The ill, and men with wounds of war.
Bless those who give their healing care,
That life and laughter all may share
.Galen H. Meyer (1969)
Adapted by James D. Shannon (1970)
God, Who dost still the restless foam,
Protect the ones we love at home.
Provide that they should always be
By thine own grace both safe and free.
O Father, hear us when we pray
For those we love so far away.
Hugh Taylor (date Unk) Lord, guard and guide the men who fly
And those who on the ocean ply;
Be with our troops upon the land,
And all who for their country stand:
Be with these guardians day and night
And may their trust be in thy might.
Author Unknown (1955)
O Father, King of earth and sea,
We dedicate this ship to thee.
In faith we send her on her way;
In faith to thee we humbly pray:
O hear from heaven our sailor’s cry
And watch and guard her from on high!
Author/date Unknown And when at length her course is run,
Her work for home and country done,
Of all the souls that in her sailed
Let not one life in thee have failed;
But hear from heaven our sailor’s cry,
And grant eternal life on high!
Author/date Unknown
William Whiting (1825-1878) was born in Kensington, England, and educated at Chapham and Winchester. Because of his musical ability, he became master of Winchester College Choristers’ School. While best known for Eternal Father , Whiting also published two poetry collections: Rural Thoughts (1851) and Edgar Thorpe, or the Warfare of Life (1867). He died at Winchester.
John Bacchus Dykes (1823-1876) was born in Hull, England, and by age 10 was the assistant organist at St. John’s Church, Hull, where his grandfather was vicar. He studied at Wakefield and St. Catherine’s College, earning a B.A. in Classics in 1847. He cofounded the Cambridge University Musical Society. He was ordained as curate of Malton in 1847. For a short time, he was canon of Durham Cathedral, then precentor (1849-1862). In 1862 he became vicar of St. Oswald’s, Durham. He published sermons and articles on religion but is best known for over 300 hymn tunes he composed. He died in Sussex at age 53.
(Information from The Presbyterian Hymnal Companion by LindaJo H. McKim, Westminster/John Knox Press, Louisville, Ky. 1993)
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Speaking of patriotism and the church, let me say one thing we all need to remember. Whereas popular culture has accepted “God Bless America”, in reality it should be America Bless God!
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Peter L.,
Yes, I’ve heard that rewording in recent years (since 9/11) and it does make some sense. But really, we honor God and God blesses us. I don’t think it’s really accurate to speak of people “blessing” God, since He lives above human blessings and cursings. I think “God bless America” should be seen as a request, really a prayer, and not a demand or a mere slogan.
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Cheryl D,
I’ve never been certain what it means for people to bless God, but whatever it is certainly is a Scriptural idea.
I will bless the Lord at all times (Psalm 34:1)
When you have eaten and are satisfied, you shall bless the Lord your God for the good land which He has given you. (Deut. 8:10)
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19- Cameron- I saw it. That doesn’t cut it. What are the McCains hiding?
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I have to agree with Cheryl and note that those churches that eschew patriotism are staying truer to the purpose of orthodox Christianity, that patriotism takes with it many risks for a Christian and there is great tension between Christianity on the one hand and Americanism on the other. Indeed Christians should grapple with the question “can one be a good Christian and a good American at the same time?”
The two don’t always mix well and Christians would be well warned to distinguish between them. For instance “Americanism” as put forth by America’s key Founders holds that most or all religions (including ISLAM) are valid ways to God. Does orthodox Christianity hold this?
John McCain as potential President is going to be encouraged to tow the line of Americanism — as such he’s going to have to welcome Muslims as equal citizens and their faith as valid. The trouble he’s having with Hagee & Parsley well illustrates the tension between orthodox Christianity on the one hand and Americanism on the other. That Islam or any arguably any non-Christian faith is “false” is a profoundly un-American idea and will not mix well in Presidential politics.
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Speaking as one of the few foreigners here, I was surprised to see an American flag in almost all the churches I’ve been to in the US. I found it rather crass and, at the time, anti-Christian. Later when I attended the Anglican church for awhile, I also saw a more subtle but still close link between church and state. There’s a certain amount of irony here. America has become more English than England.
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And again, HRW, arguably speaking it’s not good for the faith. It encourages Christian Churches to incorporate the heresy personally believed in by America’s early Presidents that all religions are valid paths to God, that Christ is in fact, not the EXCLUSIVE way.
As the heretic John Adams put it:
“It has pleased the Providence of the first Cause, the Universal Cause, that Abraham should give religion not only to Hebrews but to Christians and Mahomitans, the greatest part of the modern civilized world.”
– John Adams to M.M. Noah, July 31, 1818.
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Considering the profound sacrifices many have made for our freedom of faith and expression in America, I find it sad that we try to tell each other that symbols or certain exressions of gratitude for that do not belong in church.
Cheryl D, why can a pastor put that gratitude in a prayer but the church cannot sing such a prayer (”God Bless America”, or “God Shed His grace on Thee”)? Or was that what you were saying?
I don’t find people from other countries to be so resentful of our expressions of gratitude.
If symbols of patriotism do not belong at church, then should I not be allowed to wear a flag pin? And if I can, why not a larger flag?
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I note that HRW finds it “crass” to see “an American flag in almost all the churches I’ve been to in the US.”
How is that “crass” or “anti-Christian?” I suspaect that HRW does not understand our freedom in Christ, let alone our freedom of religious expression.
Anything good can be treated crassly. And it is possible to use a flag in an anti-Christian way. But the abuses should not preclude our freedom to express gratitude with tack and sincerity.
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I strongly disagree with Jon Rowe that eschewing patriotism is necessary for staying true to the purpose of Christianity. Nonsense.
Patriotism is a virtue and it’s abuses do not change that fact.
I have no trouble at all striving to be a good Christian and a good American at the same time. And being a good Christian comes first, last and inbetween. But being a good American is not necessarily a conflict. Being American includes a sufficient love of freedom for others to disagree with me too.
Perhaps Jon Rowe and I are working from two radically different definitions of what it means to be a good American. It’s not unChristian at all! Being American is defined nicely on our quarters:
“In God We Trust”
“Liberty”
“E Pluribus Unum”
Patriotism (or ‘Americanism’ as Jon put it) is not a religion to me, nor is it idolatry.
To those who seek to be good Americans, don’t let others define it for you. Just be one!
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I find it shallow, judgmental and wrong to call John Adams a “heritic.”
But Jon Rowe has long set himself up as John Adam’s eternal judge, so we are used to it now.
I do not share Jon’s definitions of Christianity and Americanism, nor do I sahre is dogmatism with regard to those apparent definitions.
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Joel,
It’s comments like yours that make me wonder what kind of a good Christian minister you are. I don’t have a personal problem with theologically liberal cafeteria Christianity. But what you are promoting has its place in the Episcopal Church of American and Bishop Spong, not in the place of orthodox Christendom that stands proudly in the shoes of Luther, Calvin, and the American Puritans.
“Heresy” was settled in orthodox Christendom in the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. And Adams was at least an Arian heretic, perhaps a Socinian. But there is no question that he believed in the unitarian heresy and denied Jesus’ full Godhood so much that he mocked the idea and the Council of Nicea which settled the matter.
“The Trinity was carried in a general council by one vote against a quaternity; the Virgin Mary lost an equality with the Father, Son, and Spirit only by a single suffrage.”
– John Adams to Benjamin Rush, June 12, 1812.
And:
“An incarnate God!!! An eternal, self-existent, omnipresent omniscient Author of this stupendous Universe, suffering on a Cross!!! My Soul starts with horror, at the Idea, and it has stupified the Christian World. It has been the Source of almost all of the Corruptions of Christianity.”
– John Adams to John Quincy Adams, March 28, 1816.
I am NOT judging Adams but rather categorizing him according to YOUR standards in which YOU are supposed to believe. Personally, I think all good heretics like John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, are in Heaven with atheists like Carl Sagan and homosexuals like Freddy Mercury. They are there to remind Jerry Falwell, D. James Kennedy, John Calvin, et al. just how wrong they were about salvation.
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I’ve read the foregoing posts and I would have to agree that “heretic” is too strong a word for John Adams. He had his whole life to work out his beliefs, and letters written at one time may not reveal the ultimate state of his soul. Not one of us can judge him conclusively.
I didn’t grow up in a church that had an American flag in it (or a Christmas tree), it was a church that had congregations in too many countries and did not start here, but I always heard that God has blessed America, and I was reminded to vote (not endorsing a candidate) on Tuesday, Election Day in the after-service announcements because that is a sign of good citizenship which the NT endorses.
I agree with Cheryl that going to church is about worshipping God, not about being an American — not that we can’t show gratitude to God for all that we have here. The work of the Founders was to come up with a form of government that would limit the powers of that government and serve the people. They even called it an “experiment.” They did believe that Christianity and its moral precepts were the underpinning of the Nation — no matter if Jon Rowe may disagree. Lots of faithful Christians signed onto the original documents. If they made a mistake, it was that they lacked an understanding of the Revelation and assumed that those Christian underpinnings would always prevail. They lacked vision on that score. We as Christians can see the good that this country has done — or more to the point, the good that the people have done — but we also realize that America was created by imperfect human beings. It may serve God’s purpose, but when He’s finished with it, it will go into the dustbin of history along with every other nation that no longer exists.
I think we have to remember that it is only in recent decades that people have become anti-Christian. Throughout our history, the overwhelming majority or people practiced Christianity and didn’t think in a secular manner. Secularism didn’t occur to them. But when you read the Constitution, there’s nothing “Godly” about it, and its methods and procedures can be used to create an awful place to live — which is why we don’t want to give the government so much power or revere it the way so many secularists and liberals do. They can’t abide that we forged ahead because Christianity was the real, unwritten, basis for this country. They want to rewrite history and turn the Constitution into something that it’s not — a sacred document.
No man can serve two masters.
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Jon Rowe writes: “… orthodox Christendom that stands proudly in the shoes of Luther, Calvin, and the American Puritans.”
Luther, Calvin and the American Puritans were people. You make the mistake most people make — you follow what imperfect people said or did rather than going to Christ Himself. Ask a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox Christian and they consider their version “orthodox.” Luther only came on the scene in the 1500s. You can’t ignore the expressions of faith prior to that, and I’m not talking about how the Catholics mixed faith with politics.
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I’ve never thought too much about the flag being in a church. Most churches I have been in seem to have one. Patriotic songs are usually song at the patriotic holidays also.
We have a local fiddle contest where some of the contestants come from Canada. We have both the US flag and the Canadian flag on stage. A color guard brings in the US flag and our national anthem is sung. Then the national anthem of Canada is sung. Both songs are played by one of the fiddle players and sung by whoever wants to do so. No one is forced to sing. We stand for both anthems in respect for our guests.
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Okay that’s two orthodox Trinitarian Christians now on the record who aren’t willing to term Arianism or Socinianism “heresies” as did the early Church Fathers in 325AD and as did every single Church that professed orthodoxy until around the 19th Century and as most of your denominations still do today.
This illustrates how the notion of liberal democracy and the age in which we are leaving has infected and affected the minds of traditional Christians.
I’m have no problem with theological liberalism; but you folks are supposed to! That’s the only point I’m trying to make.
Where are the orthodox who will chime in and set Joel and NJL straight that Arianism and Socinianism are “heresies” and if you embrace them like John Adams clearly did, you are a heretic, plain and simple.
This isn’t the antiSeminism of Luther I’m trying to get you folks to defend. Rather, I’m trying to get you to defends something elementary to the Christian faith that Luther, Calvin, the Puritans, et al. defended.
Calvin must be rolling over in his grave. This is something for which he had Servetus put to death. Servetus has won.
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#33 — I understand the theology behind freedom in Christ and I share in a freedom of religious expression but neither have anything to do with the placement of a flag in church. Church is a place of faith and worship; if amongst the church’s icons and symbols there stands one which is not representative of one’s faith; its anti-Christian and a competitor.
One can be both a good Christian and a good American but one cannot serve two masters. The inclusion of the flag is symbolic of a second master.
Christianity, unlike Judaism, is a universal faith and does not favour one nation over another. Islam stands in the middle with Arab nations having a favoured status.
And it is possible to use a flag in an anti-Christian way. but its not possible to use the flag as a Christian symbol.
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Jon Rowe, I don’t really care if Calvin is rolling over in his grave. It would seem to me that he’s got his own problems in eternity if he had someone killed for his beliefs. He was a man, and that’s all Calvin is to me. It doesn’t sound as if he asked “WWJD?” with respect to Servetus, but God will judge him. His views on Christianity don’t matter to me. They are not required for me to believe Jesus is the Way.
Nor was I there when John Adams died. There are letters, and you can conclude what you want for your own reasons, but how do you know there aren’t other letters that show his faith developing? You don’t have the whole record. A person’s faith develops, and sometimes they have an “aha” moment at the end. As someone who attended law school and knows plenty of lawyers who are in love with their reasoning skills, I know that many of those people get hung up on thinking they know everything. Many of them can’t imagine submitting to God, because “that” is not about “them.” Maybe John Adams was one of those lawyers. I don’t know, so I’ll leave the judging up to God.
You have a theory of American history that you want to fit people into. Adams’ faith or lack thereof makes no difference to me. I think he was “obnoxious and disliked,” but he did his bit for the country, and he was good at it. God will weigh that.
Having an opinion is one thing. I certainly have mine on virtually everything. But it’s just an opinion. I personally don’t think you understand Christianity if you put it into slots like Arianism or Socinianism or Catholic or Baptist, Lutheran or Calvinist, etc. These are the ideas of man, not God. It’s not an intellectual exercise. If you want to know Christ, you have to go to the original primary source. That’s who I follow, and I fail at it EVERY day. It’s not hard or deep, and it doesn’t need some big intellectual theological theory to explain it. Christ gets lost in that. My goal in life is to become that child Jesus said I had to be like in order to see the Kingdon of Heaven. Sometimes I get in my own way. (Maybe John Adams did, too.)
Christ will judge, and His judgment will be true.
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That’s quite a post you made NJL – it’s the person of the LORD Jesus Christ and His death on the Cross, and our acceptance of the gift He gave us.
By FAITH are we saved!
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Thank you, Victoria.
As you said: “it’s the person of the LORD Jesus Christ and His death on the Cross, and our acceptance of the gift He gave us.”
That’s orthodoxy!
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NJL: I echo Victoria’s comments.
Some people try to make things difficult when they aren’t at all.
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NJ Lawyer & Cheryl,
No one ever said anything about church NOT being about worshipping God or that “being an American” in any way precludes that endeavor. One can be an American and express gratitude for the country without somehow failing to worship God.
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Who on this thread ever advocated serving two masters? Pray tell? Can we not be Christians and also have jobs too or is that serving two master? Can we love God and also love our spouse, or is that serving two masters? Can we not be Christians and still express our patriotism (while also respectig others). or is that serving two masters?
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It amazes me how inimidated, fearful or hasitant it seems so many Americans are from expressing gratitude for their country and our insitutions. istead, we constantly complain.
Anti-Americans sure are not shy about expressing their hatred for America. And they want authentic patriots as silent as they can manage to make us.
If this does not apply to you, fine. I am just expressing my amazement over how intimidated so many of us are from showing our patriotism, from wearing it on our sleave. The presumed presiidential candiate for a major party has even stated that he does not plan to wear a flag pin and gave some lame irrelevant excuse for not wearing it.
If we lose America as we know it, it will be because we did not deserved to keep it.
Happy Memorial Day, my fellow Americans.
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NJ Lawyer wrote; “…only in recent decades that people have become anti-Christian.”
I don’t think our culture is all that anti-Christin, but I do think it is extremely anti-evangelism. We are rather libertarian about what religion you want to be, but we place huge stigmas on those who go public with that faith or seek to share it with others in public. Expressing your faith is what makes you unpopular, even with many so-called Christians.
NJ lawyer, thanks for your many fine comments overall, especially in response to Jon.
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I think much of the disagreement over whether it is appropriate to have the American flag in church is that the display of a flag has different meanings to people from different backgrounds, especially from different countries. I found a website that discusses this topic, and tells what some of the other meanings are that people in other countries understand the display of the flag to mean. There is also a link to another page that discusses specific countries.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/rel.html#sanct
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#36, Jon Rowe wrote to me; “It’s comments like yours that make me wonder what kind of a good Christian minister you are.”
Huh? You’ve declared John Adams a “heretic,” are you now going to do the same with me, whom you also do not know?
Jon wrote to me (I think), “But what you are promoting has its place in the Episcopal Church of American and Bishop Spong, not in the place of orthodox Christendom…”
Jon, you’ve lost it! You are twisting in the wind, my friend. I wrote a book review on a book by Spong. If anyone wants to know my views on Spong’s views, then consider my own words, not Jon’s about me. Check it out at:
http://www.campuscrosswalk.org/2005-fall-18.html
Jon wrote; “I am NOT judging Adams but rather categorizing him according to YOUR standards in which YOU are supposed to believe.’
You called his a “heretic” and now you’re saying you are not judging him? Earth to Jon. And can’t you even use your own standards to condemn someone? Why do you try to speak for me? I may not agree with every word Adams wrote in a letter at every point in his life, but I also don’t feel any need to judge him from afar. he considered himself a Christian.
All the stuff about Nicea, Arians, unitarians and Socinians makes for interesting discussions about history and theology, but I let God judge real people. If Adams truly repented of his sins, who am I to say he was a heretic, or judge his faith?
If Luther or Calvin (quite orthodox, and whom I like a lot) did not truly repent, and only God knows, then all their orthodoxy won’t help them much. Remember, I just said “if.”
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Who on this thread ever advocated serving two masters? Pray tell? Can we not be Christians and also have jobs too or is that serving two master? Can we love God and also love our spouse, or is that serving two masters? Can we not be Christians and still express our patriotism (while also respectig others). or is that serving two masters?
If a teacher brings his marking to church he serves two masters. If a businessman brings his laptop and blackberry to church he serves two masters. If a politician hands out tracts while ushering people to the pew, he serves two masters. If the flag occupies a prominent place in the sanctuary the congregation serves two masters.
Sphere sovereignty asserts God is sovereign everywhere but each sphere has different implications for a Christian. The sanctuary and the nation have different implications for a Christian.
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Most of the churches I have attended have the American flag and the Christian flag on the platform. I don’t see anything wrong with that.
Our church, had the ‘Presenting of the Colors’ this morning in church, along with the ‘Pledge of Allegiance’ – I wasn’t happy about it at all, – yes many of my family have served in the military, and I’m very grateful for their service.
Church service on Sunday in the Sanctuary is about Worshipping GOD, thanking, praising HIM for what HE has done for us, HIS Son dying on the cross for our sins, the Holy Spirit in our lives. It’s not about this country, its about WORSHIP, I don’t worship a flag or a country. I’m grateful for my country and all it stands for, but there is NO WORSHIP of the USA.
I can understand when a war breaks out, and there are prayers given for those who are going into battle to defend our country, – I can understand thanking GOD today and everyday for the country we live in, the Freedom we have and that would include TODAY in church – I can understand a funeral in which the deceased has been in the military, and perhaps the Navy hymn or other music is played. However a funeral is not a worship service –
‘Presenting the Colors’ and ‘Pledging the Flag’ in my opinion is not appropriate in a Worship Service to GOD ALMIGHTY.
Worship to GOD is special, HE doesn’t share HIS glory with anyone.
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8
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Joel,
This is plain and simple as simple as “judging” Muslims who worship “Allah” to be “not Christian.” And indeed, it’s surprising that otherwise intelligent Christians sometimes have a problem with these issues. Martin Luther, believe it or not, considered Islam to be a “Christian heresy” because Muslims claim to believe in the same inspired scripture that Jews and Christians do (whom they hold “people of the book”). (IE Luther believed Muslims worshipped the same God as Christians but thought of Islam as a “heresy,” not unlike unitarianism.)
John Adams was a MILITANT theological unitarian. He ABSOLUTELY rejected the Trinity. Thus this makes him, according to orthodox Christian standards, a “heretic.” These are the standards of orthodoxy as set out by the Nicene Creed in 325 AD and are far more central to the traditional biblical Christan faith than are the sexual or social issues that are the dispute in today’s culture wars that Bishop irritates believers by endorsing. Hedging on these issues is worse than hedging on the issues like homosexuality that Spong has gotten himself into trouble with.
Adams was such a militant unitarian, in an 1813 letter to Jefferson, he stated that even if GOD HIMSELF revealed the doctrine of the Trinity to him with Moses on Mt. Sinai he still wouldn’t believe it because reason and the senses instructed him that 1+1+1 = 3, not 1.
And it matters not what potentially Adams might have believed before his death; what matters is what’s on the public record. And that is what I have summarized. The militant atheist Madalyn Murray O’hair may have become a born-again orthodox Trinitarian Christian just before her death. Ditto with Saddam Hussein. But there is not a shred of evidence in the record for this. And likewise with John Adams.
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“You called his a ‘heretic’ and now you’re saying you are not judging him? Earth to Jon. And can’t you even use your own standards to condemn someone? Why do you try to speak for me?”
[...]
“All the stuff about Nicea, Arians, unitarians and Socinians makes for interesting discussions about history and theology, but I let God judge real people.”
Joel, this seems terrible sophistry on your part. Let’s get something clear. My own standards are you can be an atheist a homosexual a Muslim or a Jew and get into Heaven.
I used the term “heresy” in a descriptive, not a prescriptive sense, according to the standards of evangelical orthodox Christianity that this blog is supposes to represent.
It is these standards that hold not only do Muslims, atheists, homosexuals and Jews go to Hell, but that Arianism and Socinianism are not just false, but soul damning heresies.
The Catholic Church, currently, is hedging on issues of eternal damnation and flirting with theological universalism. I didn’t think this was quite the same with evangelical Protestantism; but maybe I am mistaken.
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Pauline,
Thanks for your comments on our “blessing God.” The first few times I saw that I thought it was kind of cool, but after a while it just started seeming corny. And it doesn’t seem wrong to ask God to bless us.
Joel Mark,
Gratitude isn’t the issue in my dislike over the flag’s presence in church. (It’s not in my church, BTW.) I personally don’t like Mother’s Day or Father’s Day receiving the Sunday morning service, though I’m not opposed to the pastor thanking God for mothers, and doing so on such a day. If a song about America is the sort in which we’re thanking God for a blessing (similar to thanking Him for the beauty of His creation), I see nothing wrong with it–that’s why I made the distinction of a song non-American Christians can join in on. I’m not even attempting to say “This song is OK; this one isn’t.” That’s a pastoral decision as to specifics. If it’s more about America than about God, it doesn’t belong in the worship service. Be thankful, yes–but the worship service is about God, and not about mothers and fathers and Christmas trees and the Fourth of July.
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“Christ will judge, and His judgment will be true.”
I just wish you folks had the same theological leniency with folks who, like Adams who was unrepentant in his anti-Trinitarian “blasphemy,” are likewise unrepentant in their homosexuality, atheism, and Islamism. If you concede this, I’ll stop.
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It’s wonderful to see Christians stand up against Jon Rowe on this blog. Wonderful indeed!
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Jon
YOU WRITE: ———- ” Let’s get something clear. My own standards are you can be an atheist a homosexual a Muslim or a Jew and get into Heaven.”
This is the problem with your so called “standards” —- they aren’t GOD’S, that’s what makes them of no effect. Man can’t make-up a designer religion which encompasses the religions of the world, or no belief (atheist) put them in a blender, hit the button, and there it is, ‘your idea of Heaven’ according to your designer choice. You, ‘little man’ don’t hold the Universe in your hand, but GOD DOES, and he doesn’t share his glory with anyone. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit didn’t put you in charge.
GOD sent HIS Son to die for you Jon, just like all the rest of us, but its up to you to repent of your sins and turn to HIM, believe on Christ as your Savior. There is no other Savior, there is no multiple choice, its either Christ and Eternal Life or separation from GOD for all Eternity. YOU CHOOSE!
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8
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May 23, 2008
The Wounded-Courier:
Bush Golfing Again, Says “Long Nat’l Nightmare” Over
President Bush, who recently revealed he gave up playing golf on Aug. 19, 2003 because it “sends the wrong signal” during a time of war, has ended his near five-year sacrifice. The Wounded-Courier has obtained a rush transcript of the president’s discussion to air tonight on Fox News’ Special Report with Brit Hume. The following is an excerpt from that interview:
BRIT HUME: Mr. President, why did you decide to take up golf again?
PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, Brit, I’ve proven my solidarity with our troops and their families. I haven’t hit the links for longer than the longest tours of duty of any of our brave fighting men and women. And, quite frankly, I think this country has sacrificed enough.
BRIT HUME: A tremendous sacrifice indeed, Mr. President. I’m sure our citizens will breathe a sigh of relief knowing that our progress in the war on terror is such that their commander-in-chief can once more safely bestride golf courses across America.
PRESIDENT BUSH: Exactly, Brit. The long national nightmare is over. Tomorrow morning, I plan to eat a healthy egg white omelet, maybe a little yogurt and fresh fruit, then I’m off to play a good eighteen holes. (laughs) Maybe more if these ol’ battle-scarred knees allow it.
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It’s wonderful to see Christians stand up against Jon Rowe on this blog. Wonderful indeed!
Indeed. Thanks for schooling them, Jon.
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#57,
Nonsense. If a person wears a flag pin on his suit, or on her dress, is THAT serving two masters? No, not necessarily. A visible flag in the room is no violation either. The serving of two masers, HRW, is a spiritual problem, not a matter of symbols of honor and gratitude.
Abuses of church (by politicians or others) or abuses of symbols do not necessarily make legitimate expressions of honor and gratitude inapproapriate at church. Such abuses do happen, but don’t clam up our freedoms because of abuses.
There will be different free church decisions made all over the landscape. I am for loosening up our legalism and honoring free expressions of gratitude a lot more than we do. Don’t be intimidated.
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#59, Jon Rowe, you are not being intellectually honest. Muslims do not regard themselves as Christians so it is not necessarily “judging” them to say they are not Christians. John Adams did regard himself as a Christian.
You write, “John Adams was a MILITANT theological unitarian.”
Recent biographies about Adams on paper and on film (to the best of my memory) totally ignore this alleged “militantcy.” You are obsessed with it and you are wrong. I have pointed this out many times and you have no capacity to listen to reason on this point. And your comments again reveal that you have not listened to my responses at all.
Adams was of Puritan stock and went to a congregationalist church. The word militant does not apply to Adams, it applies only to you, Jon.
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#61. Cheryl D wrote; “Be thankful, yes–but the worship service is about God, and not about mothers and fathers and Christmas trees and the Fourth of July.”
Again, no one is saying that worship should not be about God. But showing appreciation (for moms, dads, country, graduations, Christian holidays, etc) need not detract from that at all. Discretion is curcial but you said certain symbols “do not belong.” I think I just see a need for more a little more effort and freedom to apply in worship when showing appreciation ad gratitude for life’s blessings and gifts.
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Jon Rowe,
Your uncalled for personal insult to me at #41 reveals that you probably know you are in the wrong.
And your reference to Spong in relation to me revealed how little you understad what I am saying.
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You missed the analogy to Spong, Joel. In trying to make room for a unitarian heretic like John Adams into the definition of “Christian” you are going down the road of theological liberalism for which Bishop Spong is a poster boy.
I have may have given you an “elbow” that was too harsh for a civilized debate but it was hardly wrong.
The quotations that I reproduced in 41 are all you need to show John Adams’ militancy in his theological unitarianism; but I have more. By the way, as far as I know, you are right, I did coin the term “militant unitarian,” in referring to Adams.
And best selling author Stephen Waldman of Beliefnet who has a new book on the matter that is getting great respect from both the left and the right, told me in an unsolicited email that he reads my blog and that I am one of the best bloggers on the subject of the Founders & Religion. And check out the term he uses to describe not just Adams but a whole slew of America’s key Founders.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/12/post_3_but_you_are/
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Joel Mark,
You and I often agree. But when a church chooses to place a flag in nearly the same prominence as the cross itself, I think that’s problematic. Same goes for Christmas trees, story windows, etc.
A congregant wearing a flag pin is representative of that person’s individual views, but when church leadership (whatever its form) chooses to display a flag, it makes a larger statement for all.
Our allegiance is to Christ. I’m as grateful to God for this country as I am for my mother, but I don’t put her on a pedestal at the front of the sanctuary.
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Jon Rowe,
“Theological leniency”????????
Jesus Christ said he would judge and his judgement is true. There’s no “leniency” there. He said it. What better source????
My reference to “no one can serve two masters” came after a paragraph about how this country has changed. In the past decades, in my opinion, the secularists have had success in separating the Christian underpinnings from the Constitution and have substituted worship of the Constitution, of government, for worship of God. I don’t think the country can survive such a separation, so I do believe that in the future, if this separation continues, there will come a point where the Constitution will become so distorted that we as Christians will be forced to choose between Christ and the government. So, no, at this point, we don’t take our “also being an American” coat off when we walk into church, we are what we are, but at some point, we may have to. I’d hate to see that happen, which is why I am so willing to go to court to stop those who would end our religious freedoms. That’s all I meant. (And I would agree that the culture is more anti-evangelical, and the reason for that is because the evangelicals still talk about sin, something people don’t want to hear about, certainly the secularists. Many prefer their Christianity watered down.)
Jon, you wrote: “And it matters not what potentially Adams might have believed before his death; what matters is what’s on the public record.” I’ll agree that from the public record, it doesn’t seem as if John Adams believed in the Trinity. But the “public record” carries no weight with God Himself. And ultimately, when you talk about judging someone’s entrance into heaven, it is not based on the public record or your or my opinion. God doesn’t care about the PUBLIC record. He has the ENTIRE record at His disposal.
And let’s take Bishop Spong, a fellow Jerseyan, as an example. Here’s a guy who doesn’t believe in the resurrection. That’s in his “public record.” And that may be true his true belief. I’ve often thought the man went batty after his wife died and he’s been working things through just like C.S. Lewis, who came out the other way. Only God knows what’s going on in the recesses of this man’s soul. Do I listen to Spong? No. I think he’s wrong, a whackadoodle. But it is NOT my job to judge whether he makes it into heaven. It ain’t over til it’s over. It’s similar to those people who question Mother Theresa’s faith because she had doubts now and again. God weighs these things. I don’t. Not my job.
Jon, you can believe all you want that this person or that person is “in heaven,” but only God makes that decision. And considering that you’re not up on whose judgment is true, and you think that Christ’s statement is “leniency,” you might want to consult one of those red text Bibles and read what Jesus said — and not just the part that Jefferson liked. I mean, if you want to discuss Christianity with Christians, perhaps you should read the entire New Testament. Again, it’s not an intellectual exercise. Some very intelligent people miss the point of salvation, and some very humble people get it right off the bat. To really understand Christianity, you have to become the little child.
Happy Memorial Day. I’m going to grill.
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Jon Rowe,
Your mean-spirited “elbow” was revealing and your claim that it was not wrong is more revealing.
All your theorizing about Christianity or orthodoxy is worthless unless you honestly repent of sins. That’s Christianity.
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Cameron,
Thanks for your comment.
Hopefully, you read my comments about discretion, regarding symbols and holidats and such in churches.
I think we too often err in the legalistic direction of placating (or being intimidated by) those who don’t want to see public evidence of gratitude for America. I don’t want expressions or symbols of our faith to be legally banned in public arenas and I don’t see any reason to start legalistically restricting expressions or symbols of love of country, or moms & dads or holiday expressions in church either.
How many times must I say that no one, least of all myself, is suggesting that worship should NOT be about God or that our alligience is NOT to Christ?
Why is it so heard for some to understand this?
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Jesus’ church will still be around long after the USA is gone. But while we have this great country, church is not a place where appropriate ezxpressions of gratitude should be formally restricted or banned.
I don’t see or hear much authentic patirotism expressed anymore in public in America, church or not. We see and hear what looks like patriotism during political campaigns, but i like seeing and hearing it freely and tactfully expressed just for the sheer sincerity of it all.
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“And it matters not what potentially Adams might have believed before his death; what matters is what’s on the public record.” I’ll agree that from the public record, it doesn’t seem as if John Adams believed in the Trinity. But the “public record” carries no weight with God Himself. And ultimately, when you talk about judging someone’s entrance into heaven, it is not based on the public record or your or my opinion. God doesn’t care about the PUBLIC record. He has the ENTIRE record at His disposal.
I didn’t mean to make this as much about who gets into Heaven but rather “who is a Christian” and “what is Christianity?”
NJL, I like your analogy comparing Bishop Spong to John Adams. If Bishop Spong can qualify as a “Christian,” then so too can John Adams. It’s the “broad” understanding of the Christianity vs. the “narrow,” orthodox Trinitarian understanding. Both John Adams and Bishop Spong qualify as Christians according to this “broad” understanding. Neither qualify as Christians according to the narrow understanding.
In terms of who gets into Heaven, I’ll agree, leave that to God.
Cheers.
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Joel Mark,
How are you defining legalism? How do you view the Regulative Principle of Worship? This may be at the heart of our views.
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Joel Mark has a point about patriotism. There’s nothing wrong with expressing it. In my own very liberal town, whenever there is a parade on a holiday, i.e., July 4th, some of the powers that be turn it into an anti-war, anti-Bush, whatever their thing is that year, but in the past few years, they went so far that people started to complain. They said they wouldn’t attend the town parade if it was going to be turned into a political protest because they wanted their kids to have a “real” July 4th experience. (Honestly, if I had kids, I’d take them to celebrations in New England where they seem to do things right.)
We didn’t have a flag in church growing up, but on holidays such as July 4th and Memorial Day, etc., we were reminded of the blessings God has given this country. I think that’s all Joel Mark is advocating.
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NJL, I would agree that there is nothing wrong with thanking God for the blessings He has given this country. I don’t think Cameron would disagree, either. The problem is, sometimes people step way over that line. In some cases, the flag becomes very much an idol (but anything can become an idol, I suppose). We (the church) have incorporated all manner of secular traditions, unwarranted in the word of God, into worship, and that is a real problem.
Just to give an example (one I’ve shared on here before): I stopped watching D. James Kennedy the week after 9/11. He preached a sermon that didn’t strike any discord, but he ended it with a spectacle (and I don’t mean that in a good way) in which a GIANT American flag unfurled from the ceiling behind him, and then he “spontaneously” broke out into a rendition of “God Bless America.” Sorry, but that was WAY over the top, imho.
God is supposed to be the sole and supreme focus of our worship. If we elevate or interfere with that focus by bringing in the flag, or mothers, or Christmas trees and Santa, or whatever, then we have a problem (yes, I’m sure I tipped a lot of sacred cows there). I don’t have issue with recognizing God’s providence and blessings in some of these areas at various times, but they should not “take over” our worship services, which they so often do.
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TJ, I hear ya.
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NJL:
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