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Just to give an example (one I’ve shared on here before): I stopped watching D. James Kennedy the week after 9/11. He preached a sermon that didn’t strike any discord, but he ended it with a spectacle (and I don’t mean that in a good way) in which a GIANT American flag unfurled from the ceiling behind him, and then he “spontaneously” broke out into a rendition of “God Bless America.” Sorry, but that was WAY over the top, imho.

God is supposed to be the sole and supreme focus of our worship. If we elevate or interfere with that focus by bringing in the flag, or mothers, or Christmas trees and Santa, or whatever, then we have a problem (yes, I’m sure I tipped a lot of sacred cows there). I don’t have issue with recognizing God’s providence and blessings in some of these areas at various times, but they should not “take over” our worship services, which they so often do.

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We didn’t have a flag in church growing up, but on holidays such as July 4th and Memorial Day, etc., we were reminded of the blessings God has given this country. I think that’s all Joel Mark is advocating.

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I didn’t mean to make this as much about who gets into Heaven but rather “who is a Christian” and “what is Christianity?”

NJL, I like your analogy comparing Bishop Spong to John Adams. If Bishop Spong can qualify as a “Christian,” then so too can John Adams. It’s the “broad” understanding of the Christianity vs. the “narrow,” orthodox Trinitarian understanding. Both John Adams and Bishop Spong qualify as Christians according to this “broad” understanding. Neither qualify as Christians according to the narrow understanding.

In terms of who gets into Heaven, I’ll agree, leave that to God.

Cheers.

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I don’t see or hear much authentic patirotism expressed anymore in public in America, church or not. We see and hear what looks like patriotism during political campaigns, but i like seeing and hearing it freely and tactfully expressed just for the sheer sincerity of it all.

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Thanks for your comment.

Hopefully, you read my comments about discretion, regarding symbols and holidats and such in churches.

I think we too often err in the legalistic direction of placating (or being intimidated by) those who don’t want to see public evidence of gratitude for America. I don’t want expressions or symbols of our faith to be legally banned in public arenas and I don’t see any reason to start legalistically restricting expressions or symbols of love of country, or moms & dads or holiday expressions in church either.

How many times must I say that no one, least of all myself, is suggesting that worship should NOT be about God or that our alligience is NOT to Christ?

Why is it so heard for some to understand this?

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Your mean-spirited “elbow” was revealing and your claim that it was not wrong is more revealing.

All your theorizing about Christianity or orthodoxy is worthless unless you honestly repent of sins. That’s Christianity.

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“Theological leniency”????????

Jesus Christ said he would judge and his judgement is true. There’s no “leniency” there. He said it. What better source????

My reference to “no one can serve two masters” came after a paragraph about how this country has changed. In the past decades, in my opinion, the secularists have had success in separating the Christian underpinnings from the Constitution and have substituted worship of the Constitution, of government, for worship of God. I don’t think the country can survive such a separation, so I do believe that in the future, if this separation continues, there will come a point where the Constitution will become so distorted that we as Christians will be forced to choose between Christ and the government. So, no, at this point, we don’t take our “also being an American” coat off when we walk into church, we are what we are, but at some point, we may have to. I’d hate to see that happen, which is why I am so willing to go to court to stop those who would end our religious freedoms. That’s all I meant. (And I would agree that the culture is more anti-evangelical, and the reason for that is because the evangelicals still talk about sin, something people don’t want to hear about, certainly the secularists. Many prefer their Christianity watered down.)

Jon, you wrote: “And it matters not what potentially Adams might have believed before his death; what matters is what’s on the public record.” I’ll agree that from the public record, it doesn’t seem as if John Adams believed in the Trinity. But the “public record” carries no weight with God Himself. And ultimately, when you talk about judging someone’s entrance into heaven, it is not based on the public record or your or my opinion. God doesn’t care about the PUBLIC record. He has the ENTIRE record at His disposal.

And let’s take Bishop Spong, a fellow Jerseyan, as an example. Here’s a guy who doesn’t believe in the resurrection. That’s in his “public record.” And that may be true his true belief. I’ve often thought the man went batty after his wife died and he’s been working things through just like C.S. Lewis, who came out the other way. Only God knows what’s going on in the recesses of this man’s soul. Do I listen to Spong? No. I think he’s wrong, a whackadoodle. But it is NOT my job to judge whether he makes it into heaven. It ain’t over til it’s over. It’s similar to those people who question Mother Theresa’s faith because she had doubts now and again. God weighs these things. I don’t. Not my job.

Jon, you can believe all you want that this person or that person is “in heaven,” but only God makes that decision. And considering that you’re not up on whose judgment is true, and you think that Christ’s statement is “leniency,” you might want to consult one of those red text Bibles and read what Jesus said — and not just the part that Jefferson liked. I mean, if you want to discuss Christianity with Christians, perhaps you should read the entire New Testament. Again, it’s not an intellectual exercise. Some very intelligent people miss the point of salvation, and some very humble people get it right off the bat. To really understand Christianity, you have to become the little child.

Happy Memorial Day. I’m going to grill.

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