Overrated
If I were at a swinging party in the suburbs, I don’t know which statement I would be more afraid to blurt out: “I am a Christian,” or, “I don’t believe in college.”
A college education is considered de rigueur for everyone. One day we may all awaken from this mass hysteria and realize what lemmings we have been, tripping over ourselves to pay $80,000 to have our kids pass tests about Poetics, spend every waking minute with other kids bent on getting drunk, and imbibe the Weltanschauung of professors who think Christianity is for idiots.
You can dismiss my own college experience as merely anecdotal, if you will, but it’s like cockroaches: where you see one like me, there are a thousand others hiding. I wish I could have 1969 – 1973 back again, to learn a skill (by which I could reimburse my parents).
College is a business. They get their money whether your kid gets a good education or not. And as a matter of fact, “among college freshmen who graduated in the bottom 40% of their high school class, 76 of 100 won’t earn a diploma, even if given 8 ½ years” (Marty Nemko, “America’s Most Overrated Product: Higher Education”).
The hardest pro-college argument to argue against is that many employers require that piece of paper from an institution with a fancy name. (like a very expensive hall pass) All I can say to that is that it stinks and we ought to fix it.
“Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts — and with no more brains than you have. But! They have one thing you haven’t got! A diploma!” (“The Wizard of Oz”)




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back to top44 Comments to “Overrated”
This thinking is where God is leading me, too, in raising my children. I’m an education snob. Homeschool my sons. Always with college assumed. Until lately, as God has lifted the veil on the matter and once again shown me all the vain things that charm me most. Can I trust him to provide for my sons future without a education from a “good” college?
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If a person is going to college for a diploma…then the point has already been defeated for a Christian. I am not so much a believer in college or education for their own sakes…neither one will save your soul or offer you a better life on it’s own; but Christians need education in many areas to be effective in the world as God wants us to be salt and light.
Logic, rhetoric, the sciences and the liberal arts….are imperitative in maintaining a society that is as great as America. Christians need to be ready to defend their faith in all arenas and I feel that all of our educational system is dropping the ball in teaching our youth to think and express their ideas logically. Cognitive training is sadly neglected throughout most of the primary and secondary educational experience in the US. In America today it is considered rude to discuss politics and religion…the founders of America discussed those subjects ad nauseum and we were the beneficiaries of that. I think we need education has just become academic rather than utilitarian and Christians need to be involved in the reorganization of the education system as a whole…including colleges…but starting with kindergarten.
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Around this time of year, I ask parents in this church what their kids are doing after high school. “Oh, they are going to “. I ask the kid what he or she is majoring in and get shrugged shoulder “beats me”.
We live in a land of many opportunities. University is one tool available as well as Junior Colleges, military, trade school, work experience, community small-business support. All can lead to a nice career. But the tools are only good if you know first what you are trying to accomplish.
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I appreciate the education I got in college, but I would have appreciated it just as much (probably more) if I had worked for a few years first. And I might have had a better idea what kind of work fit my abilities and personality, and I certainly could have graduated with less debt.
On the other hand, once I had a job and an apartment, I probably would not have picked up and gone off to a Christian college in another state. I would have taken night classes at the local community college, which is what I did as a young adult, getting skills that were pertinent to my work rather than just learning for its own sake. And I might never have learned what Cedarville University taught me about a Christian worldview, about all truth being God’s truth, about disciplines I had never thought much about before such as economics, sociology, and political science, or the history of art. And I would probably not have studied Spanish or spent several months living in Spain, which was a life-changing experience in many ways.
I have decidedly mixed feelings on the subject.
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A question this discussion seems to revolve around: Is learning intrinsically good?
Pauline wrote about “getting skills that were pertinent to my work experience.” This is the way in which many Americans view college today. It is not the way college has been viewed in the past.
So – is learning a good thing in and of itself – regardless of the subject matter?
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Since we were at college at the same time, I can sympathize. I do think that ours (that era from 68 to oh, 76 or something) is rather singular. We came in (well, at least I came in) a lot less career-focused, more in search of fulfillment. But let’s face it that was the spirit of that Age. Today? The kind of easy slacking I did (did you Andrée?) is certainly not the style now. I look back and think myself a fool.
Of course, what will this generation look back at and regret? And regret they will. Will it be that the arts were not emphasized? That they became a master of a skill but remain a novice about living?
Yet…
If there’s one thing I’ve learned first-hand, God still has room for our foolishness. Even for this clump of mud.
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College is obviously critical for certain jobs, engineering, medicine, law, teaching, etc. But if a person is going to get a degree in some subject they have no interest in, just to have a diploma, that’s wrong. They need to find what they love doing and do it. If that means a skilled trade or something else, so be it.
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#5
Boarder1225,
A large part of the reason that that college was not viewed that way in the past was that until a century or so ago, the vast majority of work was manual labor. There were relatively few professional-type jobs. And someone with a good university education had learned a pretty large chunk of all the knowledge there was to learn.
Today the situation is vastly different. Many jobs require advanced degrees for even entry-level positions. My husband’s first career was as a research scientist for a pharmaceutical company, which required a Masters in molecular biology. That took seven years of post-secondary study, and his is just a little sliver of the scientific knowledge out there today.
I happen to think that learning is valuable for its own sake. But we all have limited time and resources, and whatever time and resources are spent in learning are not spent on something else. I used to think being a perpetual student would be wonderful, but by the time I got my first Masters degree, I was tired of a life that revolved around the academic environment, and I wanted to do something that made a meaningful difference for other people.
So I think it’s a mistake to look at learning purely for pragmatic reasons in terms of what it can do for your career. But it’s also a mistake to give too little attention to a responsible use of our limited resources.
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“But if a person is going to get a degree in some subject they have no interest in, just to have a diploma, that’s wrong.”
I agree if “something they have no interest in” has nothing to do with their end up profession. However, there are many degrees in the Liberal Arts that have nothing to do with a personal future profession, but do serve the “BA” function, and that importantly, folks might have a passion for. You might love art history, get your BA in such. And then get your professional certification at the graduate level.
This is esp. useful for law. Law schools require simply some kind of bachelors and that’s it. My undergraduate degree was in music. I got to go to college in Boston, learn about music and play my guitar for 4 years. I did major in music business, and music composition of the classical/concert hall kind. But my college was known for rock-jazz studies. So I got lots of credit for simply learning the ins and outs of electric guitar playing. So I got a really well-rounded education in music which doesn’t pay my bills but served as a needed bachelors to which I added two law degrees and an MBA.
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I think perhaps it might be good to distinguish between what a college education should be and what it is is today.
Today’s is to a large degree, as Andree put it, the Weltanschauung of professors who think Christianity is for idiots . And who needs that? Chrisians don’t, because they have deliberately chosen against that. And unbelievers don’t need it, because so often these professors present their Weltanschauung as the only Weltanschauung instead of presenting the options and letting students think it through.
Milton defends education (what we would consider a high school education) because the students need to learn to think. . This is just what students today need to learn–what everybody should learn–and just what they don’t.
“Reason is but choosing,” and thus we need good education.
That said, today’s educational system is broken: we need a high school that will give students the opportunity to think and reason at high levels, so that when they finish, they don’t need yet another degree. We need universities that probe meaningful questions (as opposed to feco-studies) the students that are cut out for a univ. education to be reasoning adults.
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I wish I could have 1969 – 1973 back again, to learn a skill
I hope I’m not the only one a little bothered by this. I’m not entirely sure why … only that there is so much more to life than “learning a skill.”
God gave us a mind and gave us reason and expected us to use it. Education should hone that mind, make it sharp, especially for the Christian, so as to give him the ability to wrestle with the deep thoughts on God’s character and difficult theology problems.
A skill (something you’d get at Vo-Tech) will get you by and help you pay the bills. An education (incidentally, probably what Andree got at Huemoz) will make you into a whole person and equip your mind.
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Neither Bill Gates nor Michael Dell had the stamina complete a college degree.
I’m sure they feel cheated
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SG,
It’s kinda weird — at my undergraduate college — Berklee College of Music — you can get your BMUS if you like (and you would have to if you want to go into Music Education at the K-12 level, for which we have a major). But, because the college acts largely as a “trade school” we also have just diplomas. And the huge list of music superstars who attended our college never graduated. They just hung a around for a few semesters, learned what they wanted, and then moved on. It’s strange telling folks about our distinguished alumni and trying to watch our words and not erroneously claimed they “graduated.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Berklee_College_of_Music_alumni
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I came to Christ in (a secular) college, and met my wife. There is value in higher education, but I also know many squander it. I also think a lot more could be done to actually prepare college kids for the real world…. but though I sometimes grumble about our student loan payments – I have never, ever regretted it. I’ve already got 529 accounts for my kids.
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I don’t think any of it can be one-size-fits-all. Know what you want from life (more than just your future career). Know whether college will help you get there. And choose the right college, if it will.
I took six years off after hight school because I couldn’t afford college right away. But once I went, I knew what I wanted. I got a good liberal arts education, good theology foundation, good training for my career, and good training in social skills (I needed that as well as I needed the others). That four years was very, very important in my life.
I know women who went to college largely to meet a man, and they met their husbands. As long as they didn’t go into debt in the process, and as long as they learned some things from their classes in the process (both of which seemed to be true for most of the women I know in this situation), then that seems at least a somewhat valid reason.
I’m not sure I like the current homeschooling trend to think college is a waste. I think much of the advantage of homeschooling will be nullified for some of these students, who are smart enough to go on and train for degrees that use their minds–but have somehow been taught that they shouldn’t do so. I know such a family–very, very brilliant (genius IQs without a doubt), but the father is now working manual labor and his brilliant son is probably going to be encouraged in the same thing. That’s fine if that’s your choice–but God gave such high IQs to only a few, and it might make sense for them to use them in some way.
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And let’s face it here folks! When I decided to train for my RN, I went to a university which had many churches nearby. Some of those churches were quite literally bursting from the success of their student outreach ministries. I even met a gal who worked in the university administration bldg (i.e., “sniper tower”). She had been dropped or withdrawn from a master’s program in advertising. [Note: is there a huge pay differential between baccalaureate ad men and master's level ad men?]
But she didnt move back to her home and family. She chose to remain in the college town. Apparently not being in actual classes gave her far more leisure time to be involved in Intervarsity Christian fellowship, FCA, CC for C, BSU etc etc.
Do any of you have stories about such guys and gals, whom I term “University Hangers-on?”
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#9 Jon Rowe:
I tend to see some bachelor’s level degrees as pure dumping ground/ university money makers. I’ve met folks with bachelors in govt or (depending on the school) “political science”.
They have been salesclerks, carpet cleaners you name it. Frustrated would-be lawyers, I imagine.
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“College is a business”. So true. What do they care if 18-21 year olds rack up tens of thousands of dollars of student loans.
They love all diversity except diversity of opinion.
They play god with admissions granting preferential treatment to everyone except (it seems) white Christians.
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know such a family–very, very brilliant (genius IQs without a doubt), but the father is now working manual labor and his brilliant son is probably going to be encouraged in the same thing. That’s fine if that’s your choice–but God gave such high IQs to only a few, and it might make sense for them to use them in some way.
Good story, Cheryl. It reminds me a little of my family: my uncle was quite intelligent and read plenty, but he had to work blue-collar jobs (janitorial work, propane trucks, etc) to support his family. But he passed a love of learning on to his son, who is now attending West Point and it one of the smartest people I know.
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“If I were at a swinging party…”
I’m guessing swingers are pretty open minded. Just don’t push them too hard, or they might fall off the swing.
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I’m a great believer in the value of a liberal arts education, so I don’t believe that education in something other than a job skill is wasted time and money. I think it is in nearly everyone’s best interest (and in society’s best interest as a whole) to early in life achieve a solid liberal arts education.
But then I hold the belief (unpopular among both relativistic academics and practically-minded conservatives) that half the purpose of studying literature and history is to make you a better person — “to delight and instruct.”
Whether classes in “Porn Studies” or “Garbology” (to cite a recent thread here) work toward that goal is another debate, and one that academia badly needs. But just because academia has lost sight of the goal doesn’t mean the goal is unworthy.
So do I think college is for everyone? “College” is a term too broad to answer. I do think a liberal arts education is for (nearly) everyone. For my own children, I’d rather see them develop that solid liberal arts grounding in high school, take a year or two off to become adults, then pursue advanced training in some field that interests them, whether Art History or Engineering.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly, Kimberly (#10 & #11).
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Pauline(#8),
I agree. As usual, the best policy seems to be one of avoiding two opposite errors.
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I told my daughter that she could pay for any degree that she wanted to get or, I could cosign a loan for any engineering degree in a hard science up to and including masters if she can get it done in 6 years.
Or, my recommendation is she can pay her own way to a good school and land a man in marriage who is already rich and stupid enough to marry her, without a prenuptial, and be willing to keep her in a way that she has become accustomed. I will pay her a $100,000 bonus for that
I really don’t care what she does so long as I don’t have to pay for it more than once.
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As one who didn’t make it to college (for various reasons) but loves to read & learn, I take exception to the thought that going to college teaches one to think.
Shouldn’t our kids be taught to be critical thinkers before they hit 18?
It seems to me that if one has a desire to learn & broaden one’s mind, one will find a way, whether by going to college or learning on one’s own.
My niece is currently a college student. She really thinks that college has opened her mind to so many things – things which, if course, we “ignorant” adults don’t know & which make her oh so wise.
But in reality, I think she is being indoctrinated into even more liberal thinking. (And her parents were liberal enough to begin with!) The ideas & opinions she passes by us, as if they are new & original, are much the same-old-same-old. America is bad! Women are downtrodden! (Please ignore stats that more women & girls do well in today’s American schools & colleges. Such facts merely get in the way.)
My older daughter works in a daycare, & has decided to get a degree in Early Childhood Education by going to night classes. Though a fairly social young lady, she actually doesn’t want to be part of the college dorm “scene”.
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Llama – I’ve told my daughters to marry men rich enough to keep them in the way in which they plan to become accustomed.
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There’s more to a college education than a job. I loved my college years and grew in a lot of different ways not always related to earning an English degree.
I used the critical thinking skills and ability to write to analyze Scripture and teach it over the years. I wouldn’t trade my studying years for anything, and wish I could have had a few more.
Sure, some jobs don’t require a degree, but an awful lot of other learning goes on during those years that is priceless–some good, some bad.
And while I’ve never had a high powered job that required anything beyond an ability to read and write, I know my brilliant husband would not have been intellectually satisfied with an uneducated wife. Not to mention all the smart children I’ve had to outwit over the years . . .
But yes, I would agree that a trade school or other training could better serve some than college. And certainly it would be less expensive. Why not try the military?
(Though someone should note the folks in the picture have just graduated from a military academy. Young people can simply enlist and learn a skill. My uncles have lived happily and prosperously with the electronics trades they acquired as enlisted personnel in the mid-1950s in the Navy and the Air Force)
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“I loved my college years and grew in a lot of different ways not always related to earning an English degree.”
I think this captures and important point. We delay adulthood pretty far in modern society. For many 18-22 year olds, college is just a good, fun, and salutary life experience. And we shouldn’t necessarily be concerned with “do they really need to take all of these courses so they can work in area X.”
However, for many older folks (as a CC professor, I many of them in the evenings) with bills to pay and families to feel, who need those degrees for that promotion, I’m more sympathetic to the notion that what they learn in pursuit of their terminal degrees really ought to have absolute practical value.
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JJF–Thanks. I think you said what I wanted to say, but better than I did.
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I was unable to attend college when I was younger, but did attend a community college after my daughter was grown. Most of the classes I took were job-related, but I also took a few classes just because I wanted to know more about the subject.
Now that I’m old and semi-retired, I wish I had been able to attend a 4 year school when I was younger, because I believe I lack the breadth of knowledge that could have been helpful throughout my life. Yes, I read a lot, but reading alone doesn’t impart information and understanding the same way discussion does.
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1-
“All the vain things that charm me most…”
From what hymn is this?
“But sweeter far Thy face to see, and in Thy presence rest.”
Is it Jesus, the Very Thought of Thee?
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Reg,
It’s from “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross.”
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I’m not sure I understand the recent trend (particularly, it seems, in conservative Christian circles) to criticize college education.
I’ve just finished my second year at a 4-year liberal arts college (working toward a degree in English). In my two years, I have not only taken classes that have broaden my horizons and challenged my believes, but I have also met brilliant people, made wonderful friends, experienced culture at a level I always dreamed of, learned to better articulate my thoughts, interact socially, and gotten involved in the fantastic ministry of RUF.
Not all college students are mindlessly weaving their way through their classes, their weekends puncuatued by keggers and lawless behavior. Not all vocations require a degree; I’ll concede that. But for education, personal development, and growth, university is paramount.
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Sorry for that! It should say “broadened my horizons.”
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Les_Arbres,
My impression is that the criticism is not of college education per se, but of the idea that it’s for everyone. You clearly are learning, not just in class but outside it. For someone who goes to college with the desire to learn, to experience culture, and all those other things you speak of – and who has the financial resources to do it (whether by work-study, scholarships, etc. – but not taking on an unreasonable debt burden) – it’s wonderful.
But there are those who do not belong at college, whether because they’re not ready (needing remedial classes, or needing to grow up enough to be willing to do what it takes to really learn instead of just taking up space in class), or because they’re more interested in learning a trade. They may choose college later, and both they and the college will be better for their having waited.
There are things that everyone should learn – and the conservative Christians’ argument is that they should be learning it in high school. Rather than trying to get as many people as possible to go to college, the goal should be to improve high school education – and this will require improving the lower grades as well to prepare students adequately.
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Thanks for your response, Pauline. I do agree that college isn’t for everyone. Sometimes it seems that the critique of a “universal college plan” includes a certain amount of skepticism toward college students and their responsibility at large, which explains some of my reaction.
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I’ve read all your responses and I don’t see an outside-the-box thought from anyone.
I think we should question this American institution called “higher education,” not because we are revolutionary or rebellious, but because we need to re-evaluate our thinking about it and sift this entrenched idea through the grid of a Biblical worldview. Therefore …
What do the Scriptures say:
– about our level of intelligence and what we should do with it?
– is the purpose of education?
– is a good life?
– is good preparation for a productive life?
– about the use of all that money?
– and more . . .
Once you’ve figured out some of those basic questions, then there are others to ask your college-bound child, like:
– what do you want to do with your life?
– will college enable you to prepare for that calling?
– are you currently prepared for college academically, emotionally, morally and spiritually?
– are you willing to pay what it will cost?
Please tell me how to think about these things? Don’t give me the same-old, same-old answers.
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Patty Jane,
I read this thread earlier, thinking of how to draft my response. You hit the target, great post.
GOD doesn’t have the same plan for everyone. I often times, when in a discussion such as this, reflect back on the fact that the LORD Jesus Christ chose 12 disciples, some of which were fishermen, everyday people, except for Matthew he was a tax collector. Certainly most of these men were not educated. Luke was a doctor, but not a disciple —- how can we ignore their devotion and love for the LORD, how Christ had reasons which we are not privy to, as to WHY he picked this men. Something to ponder, as we ask ourselves many questions regarding GOD’S Will in our lives, and HIS plan.
Education is wonderful, IF it is GOD’S Will, however HE might have another plan, another path.
I hope you continue to post.
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My son was looking at the general classes (requirements outside his desired major) at the the state university that I graduated from he told me the classes were lame. So I looked at the class descriptions and had to agree with him. He really doesn’t see the benefit in going off for four years and studying that idiocy. The more I look at it I have to agree with him. I really think that he should have more education, but I’m not sure that the university scene (considering the time, money and energy spent) is any where worth the cost.
On the other hand, my oldest went to Patrick Henry College and I would recommend that school to most anyone in a heartbeat. It’s not for slackers though – the average SAT scores of entrants are on par with Harvard or Yale and from what I hear the classes are much harder. (One example, one of my kids cousins was taking Latin classes at one of our state universities at about the same time that my daughter was at PHC, and the state university took a whole year to cover the book that PHC students covered in one semester.) I only wish that they had more variety in majors.
I have heard of other colleges that inspire kids to learn and have a positive environment for training them for life as well – but only at some private Christian colleges.
As I think back, my positive experience in a state university in the ’70’s was largely in spite of the general college environment. Yes there were a couple of professors that were very good and I got to know personally and interact with through clubs, etc. But the general college scene was not positive back then, either. From what I hear, it is much worse now.
So now I am trying to think of how to help my son get the education and/or experience he needs in possibly other ways, as he has very little interest in college right now.
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PattyJane & Victoria – I suppose I just assumed that Christian parents would consider the questions posed in #37, as I have, but I guess that’s maybe naive of me.
The daughter I mentioned – who works at a daycare & plans on getting a degree in Early Childhood Education by taking evening classes – is using her God-given gifts. We’ve seen her gift for working with little children since she was a younger teenager helping out with the little ones at church.
She knows she won’t make a lot of money in this, but she thinks it’s more important to make a difference in a child’s life. And if or when she has children of her own, she could have a daycare in her own home.
We strongly believe in following the Lord’s leading for one’s life.
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Karen O. I enjoyed reading your post. I love your last sentence, it is the “Lord’s leading for one’s life” —- MOST IMPORTANT -
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Could some one help with a contradiction: how do we match the “college isn’t for everyone” line with the call to use all we have for God?
This “college isn’t for everyone” sure has a whiff of the anti-intellectual about it. Present-day evangelicals do seem to be susceptible, even though historically, evangelicals have been real champions of advanced education.
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“If I were at a swinging party in the suburbs”
Somehow, I thought this one was headed in a very different direction.
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#42 Could some one help with a contradiction: how do we match the “college isn’t for everyone” line with the call to use all we have for God?
Harris,
That would be a contradiction only if college were the best way to develop everyone’s “all” for God. There are a great variety of abilities God has given people, and not all are developed in the classroom.
I know a man who knew since he was young that he wanted to use the abilities God gave him to be a plumber. I know another man who has his dream job, working for a landscaper, where he can spend all his time outdoors.
I am also dismayed by the anti-intellectualism that is sometimes found among some groups of Christians. But the antidote isn’t trying to push people to go to college whose abilities can best be developed elsewhere.
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