Angry God
I was reading a book review by Christopher Hitchens some time ago when I started at something he wrote, something which seemed too outrageous even for a man who would go on to write God Is Not Great. He referred to what he understood to be a widely accepted Christian vision of heaven, namely, that it consists of all those who are “saved” standing and praising God in an eternal church service. That, Hitchens declared, sounds like what most people would consider hell.
My first thought, upon reading his audacious claim, was: Can he say that? There was more to the review, so unless he wrote the entire piece and then added that sentence as an afterthought, it seemed that God had not struck him dead. My second thought, the sort that slips out before our better training and self-righteousness kick in, was: I think he’s right.
I felt really guilty for thinking it. Thankfully there was no lightning. I suppose we all have blasphemous thoughts from time to time, or maybe it’s just the sinners among us. Only lately I’ve been thinking, maybe it’s not blasphemy. There is that bit about saints casting their crowns at the feet of the Lamb, but it’s not entirely clear, after all, that there won’t be food and naps and touch football, too. Further, there’s the original Garden, and Adam’s first, delightful work, before he got tongue-tied and failed to stand up for his woman in the moment of truth. Surely that’s evidence, isn’t it, that heaven will be more than one eternal church service?
But it’s interesting that this is what Hitchens absorbed as the Christian theory of heaven. I wonder if he absorbed, likewise, the doctrine that seems prevalent in some Christian circles, that of a perpetually furious God. It’s not an official doctrine, but a theme that emerges gradually from the lips of some Christians. Yes, Jesus loves us, yes, God is merciful, but oh boy are those homosexuals and Babylonians and a good many of our so-called brethren going to get it, and good.
I had a friend, a new Christian back when I wasn’t a Christian, who told me how he went to the front of his church and announced that a lot of people in the sanctuary were going to hell, where they were going to burn and burn and burn. Apparently someone got him started reading the Bible, and he was zealously working his way through the Old Testament. I’d already formed that impression, of God being really angry, from being dragged to my grandmother’s Baptist church as a child, as well as — oddly, given how little else we read in my high school — from studying “Sinners In the Hands of An Angry God.”
It’s at once unfair and telling to examine what someone picks up about a subject by random osmosis. Unfair, in this case, because an ignorant new Christian, an unrepresentative sample from a particular sect, and a hell-obsessed essay hardly constitute a definitive treatment of Christian doctrine. Yet this is how people formulate opinions about Christianity, isn’t it, through the random assemblage of what they read or what they hear a televangelist say or what someone who professes the faith tells them?
(At this point my Calvinist friends are gritting their teeth over my use of the word “random,” while my Limbaugh/Hannity/O’Reilly-following friends are shaking their heads that I didn’t list the biased media in my explanation for mistaken impressions of Christian doctrine.)
I suppose it’s like anything else, we gravitate to certain attributes of God, or certain elements of doctrine, and amplify them. Presbyterians talk about predestination, Catholics about the grace of Mary, and so on. So some of us focus on God’s mercy, and others on his anger, and I suspect that somewhere behind our fumbling recitations of doctrine is the true God, at once more majestic and awful than we can imagine. I’m sure I don’t understand him so well myself, even after these eleven years of wrestling. I’m just thankful none of us gets to define him.



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back to top99 Comments to “Angry God”
Hitchens’ statement about heaven is weak straw. His attempt to tie his straw-man portrayal to hell is equally nonsensical.
Tony’s response, “I think he’s right” is not blasphemous.
It’s just nonsensical.
Full disclosure: I actually love church services. I also think that heaven will even be better (if that’s possible–which I think it is).
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Tony wrote; “So some of us focus on God’s mercy, and others on his anger…”
God’s awesome mercy cannot be understood apart from His righteous anger. Thus, if you are focusing on one or the other, you don’t understand either.
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So like I got to read Jonathan Edwards in high school too. Its quite interesting no one focused on Edwards conclusion/ending to that sermon, or bothered to mention he wrote several others on heaven.
Edwards did his best to describe hell, and the wrath of God against sin, but never left it at just that.
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Hitchens fascinates me because of how close his arguments against Christianity parallel Satan’s:
Hitchens :
Hitchens blasted away at how those who give thanks to God are “condemned to live in this posture of gratitude, permanent gratitude, to an unalterable dictatorship in whose installation we had no say. Some of us refuse this on moral grounds, as well as on the grounds that the story is a fairy tale, made up by fallible and opportunistic human beings. Christianity offers something horrible—vicarious redemption. You are told that by applauding a human sacrifice, a particularly cruel and revolting one, that took place before you were born to fulfill a prophecy in which you had no say, that it condemns you either to punishment in sin if you don’t accept it, or if you do accept it offers you the chance that your own sins can be forgiven you.”
Now Satan , who also cannot stand gratitude:
I disdained subjection, and thought one step higher
Would set me highest, and in a moment quit
The debt immense of endless gratitude,
So burthensome, still paying, still to ow;
Forgetful what from him I still receivd,
And understood not that a grateful mind
By owing owes not, but still pays, at once
Indebted and dischargd; what burden then?
… from Paradise Lost
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Thorn,
So true, if one reads most of Edwards stuff, he focused on the love of God more than anything else. “Sinners” was a bit of an exception for him. But then, again, so was the reaction he got, which is, I suppose why it made it into the canon of early Am Lit.
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Kimberly,
Great comparision.
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As to the “eternal church service,” I suppose it depends on what church conjures up in your mind.
I have been to hellish church services and to some where it felt sure one step forward and we’d be in heaven. It all had to do with the presense or absense of the God who is love. Isn’t that heaven? The presense of Him who our souls have longed for and sought all our lives?
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Where did this whole notion of Hell being the absence of God come from? I don’t think it’s biblical. In the book of revelation it says the Lamb of God personally administers the punishment to those in Hell.
Also, where is this notion that Satan is going to rule in Hell and that men will be under his dominion. The biblical purpose of Hell was for God to punish Satan AND his angels. Therefore, the notion that devils and demons will torment men in Hell is likewise unbiblical.
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I agree with Hitchens about the eternal church service–it sounds painful, while being unbiblical at the same time.
Heaven and the new earth is NOT going to be like a church service. Yes, we will be worshiping God, but it will be like Adam worshiped God in the Garden of Eden. We will be working, fellowshipping, eating, resting…all to the glory of God.
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Because of Adam’s willful sin in Eden’s garden, mankind has suffered the curse of sin throughout history. Nobody is exempt. This is real easy to understand, Jon. Jesus Christ died in our place, when He didn’t have to. He paid the ultimate price for our broken fellowship with God. Therefore, Jon, we are biblically mandated to accept Jesus’ payment for sin by being born again. Those who die without ever having accepted Jesus as savior will face God’s punishment….ie, being separated from God for all eternity, which is Hell. Yes, you are correct in noting that hell was designed for Satan and his minions….but it also includes the person who willfully rejects Jesus Christ. Revelation also says in chapter 20 that whosoever’s name was not found in the Lamb’s book of life was sentenced to the Lake of Fire.
People like Christopher Hitchens (ie, non-believers) had better come to realize the certainty of eternity very soon. There ain’t much time left on this global ball of humanity!
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Like Jon, I don’t think the “Hell = Absence of God” interpretation is accurate. God is not removed from Hell. His wrath is very much present, and I assure you that those in Hell wish they could be apart from God.
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Hell is a big stumbling point for me on this. There is no way I could accept that a loving God would send people made in His image to Hell for eternity simply for their original sin or flunking their theology test. I may deserve some punishment for my sins. But since my sins are finite, so must be the punishment. Likewise I may have suffered on Earth already out of proportion to my sins; I’m not saying that I personally have but many folks have. For instance, a 5-year-old who is raped which ruins his/her life. Regardless of whether that person accepts Jesus or not, they pretty much already OVERPAID for their sins and God will owe them rewards when they die.
Likewise the bank robber who gets away with it will pay for it in the afterlife. The bankrobber who spends his 20 years or so in prison pays the price in full for his sin.
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You guys want to quote some verses?
God cannot look upon sin: Isaiah 59:2:
But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.
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Rowe–Where in Revelation? This is a surprise to me.
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God will owe them rewards when they die
Rowe, you suggesting that God is somehow unfair or mean here, that he will somehow need to atone for what he did to the hypothetical 5-year-old?
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Not exactly. Imaging your kid getting scratched by a cat. You didn’t cause the problem but you want to “reward” her with ice cream. One could argue God caused the problem by letting it occur. But even if God isn’t responsible for that, it’s undue, unjust suffering and if there IS Justice in the universe, it would have to be accounted for.
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Jon,
I can absolutely understand your dilemma, but I think it all comes down to your understanding of a Holy God and the weight of sin.
A lot of people who question these matters tend to refer to God as “loving”, which is a very real trait. But God is no more (or less) loving than he is just and holy. He is a God to be feared.
Your understanding of sin is also one for debate. You seem to view sin as a collection of outward deeds, but it is just as much of a matter of the heart. In my heart, I want to be God, and I am critical of the job God is doing. I think to myself that I could do better. Now, I know in my mind that God’s plan and ways are perfect, but I am often tempted to question them. That sin alone is incredibly condemning. Why would a holy God want anything to do with a creature that despises its creator?
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Thanks for clarifying, Rowe. Two points:
You didn’t cause the problem but you want to “reward” her with ice cream. I’m not a parent,so perhaps I’m wrong, but an ice cream reward doesn’t quite seem necessary. Perhaps I would sympathize … and we know God sympathizes with humanity’s suffering. “Jesus wept,” after all!
But even if God isn’t responsible for that, it’s undue, unjust suffering and if there IS Justice in the universe, it would have to be accounted for. This suggestion rather “demotes” God to a role of a lesser deity, while elevating justice to a place above God. See, if “there Is Justice” that God must account for, then God is subservient to another rule besides His own. And then He is not God. This doesn’t somehow make God unjust or not good; “Shall not the Judge of all the Earth do right?” God is Himself Justice, and He sympathizes with our suffering and punishes our rebellion.
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I don’t presume that the “church services” I have gone to and still go to are all that much better than those most of you experience. However, I grew up watching my dad absolutely love going to church! I also experienced him loving God sincerely and loving me unashamedly.
Maybe that’s one reason I just love church so much and am so happy in that context. I am my father”s son (that goes for both my heavenly and earthly fathers). And I am grateful.
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But regarding heaven, I like what it says in God’s Word:
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived what God has prepared
for those who love him, but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit…” 1 Corinthains 2:9-10.
So enjoy “church services” for all they are worth while you can, but don’t compare them or anything we see or do to heaven.
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it’s undue, unjust suffering and if there IS Justice in the universe, it would have to be accounted for.
I don’t think suffering of that nature is unjust in the slightest. We are living in a fallen world that is a result of man’s sin. We are at odds with the creation, which includes pesky cats.
I don’t think that the suffering we encounter in this fallen world is in any way penance for our sin. If it were, I would much rather take a beating in this world than pay the price for sin in hell.
But I think your problem (if I can call it that) is that you are viewing sin as some sort of a tally. As if I have sinned enough to incur 2 years of torment in hell, while my super nice buddy only incurred 1 month of punishment and was fortunate enough to break his leg on the earth, so now his accounts are clear.
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See if God Himself is Justice, then I don’t believe he would punish infinitely for finite sins and do believe He would account for undue and unjust suffering. I don’t think I’m trying to demote God. But even your premises limit God’s abilities: For instance, wouldn’t you agree with the statement: God cannot lie. If true, there are things that God cannot do, things that bind Him.
I’m looking for the verse in Rev. that speaks of the Lamb of God administering the punishment. I’m almost certain I’m not mistaken.
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The “tallying” is exactly as I see it; that’s cosmic justice.
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Maybe we also cannot conceive and comprehend what Satan desires for us in hell.
But we can conceive and comprehend by faith that God is just, and His justice is good to the end. Ours is not to referee God’s justice from our distant and ignoranct perspecitve or call Him on the carpet for not being fair or nice enough. It’s not our call in the end. Speaking for believers, ours is to trust in Him.
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Perhaps if we did not live in such incredible luxury. comfort and prosperity in America and were not so entangled in popular entertainment venues, we might crave humble church services in our respective communities a lot more, for all the joys of worship, fellowship, encouragement and learning.
Just perhaps.
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Then if the tally is justice, who is doing the tallying? Who is responsible for counting the sins and determining their worth of punishment?
God has told us that the weight of sin is death, so I assume you would not want Him in charge of that.
Someone or some standard has to define the cost of a lie or adultery, and by your reasoning that standard must also define the worth of lightening striking your home or a nasty case of the flu.
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Rowe–let me know when you find that verse.
See if God Himself is Justice, then I don’t believe he would punish infinitely for finite sins and do believe He would account for undue and unjust suffering. But now you’re defining Justice yourself and comparing God to your definition. When it doesn’t match up, you say that perhaps God would not be just to send people to Hell and discard that idea. How about matching your definition up to the Biblical idea of justice? (I need to spend some time looking for a verse too now ….)
But even your premises limit God’s abilities: For instance, wouldn’t you agree with the statement: God cannot lie. If true, there are things that God cannot do, things that bind Him. Answer: God limits Himself. An angry father has the ability to seriously wound or injure his son; however, when he spanks him, he limits himself because he loves his son. God is in the same way self-limited.
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Human sin is not finite.
Sometimes our lies and the harm we do has eternal consequences for outselves and others. God is the only One to see and assess those consequences. And God alone can forgive them.
No matter how bad you think sin is, it’s worse than you think it is.
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“But now you’re defining Justice yourself and comparing God to your definition.”
I don’t think I’m doing this. I’ve heard this claim before but I don’t think it’s true. What I’m presuming is that some objective system of justice exists independent of my own judgments and also presuming if God exists, He will act in accord with those standards. This system of justice would dictate for instance, if someone is caught speeding, you don’t chop his foot off because the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.
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What I’m presuming is that some objective system of justice exists independent of my own judgments and also presuming if God exists, He will act in accord with those standards.
Yes, an objective system of justice exists.
Yes, it is independent of your own judgments.
Yes, God will act in accord with those standards, but only because those standards are derived from his being.
God is not bound to a standard of justice–he is bound to who He is.
You mentioned lying earlier. Lying is not in His nature, so of course He cannot lie. He cannot sin in any way because sin is defined as that which is opposed to God’s being.
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Suggestions on a Biblical definition of justice
* Noah was a just man and walked with God. Perhaps it involves how closely our own behaviour parallels God’s.
* Exodus 23: 2,7 associate justice with giving a true report as a witness in a court of law (or what they had as courts then). So justice is also associated accurate, precise treatment–that people who have done wrong should be punished, and those who are innocent should be legally cleared of the crime. The wicked need to “get what’s coming to them.”
* Deut. 10:18 encourages “justice for the fatherless and widow,” suggesting that true justice does not allow people to be trampled down or ignored. Rather related to the civil rights movement: here, rights for widows and orphans.
* Deut. 16:19 associates justice with impartiality.
* Deut. 25:1 gives the purpose of a court of law as “to justify the righteous and condemn the wicked,” thus making the outcome fit the initial action. Aquittal fits innocence; punishment fits sin.
* Deut. 25:15 requires that “You shall have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure,” suggesting that justice is making something match reality.
I propose a definition for justice, according to what God gave us in the Bible: : that justice is making our actions match reality.
*
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Yes, God will act in accord with those standards, but only because those standards are derived from his being.
Good point, Graceland. We must realize that God sets the standards; the standards do not “set” God in any way.
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So continuing from my post in 31–
Hell fits into the plan of divine justice, because Biblically, humanity has offended an eternal God. Cat scratches and even rapes are outside this offense; they are irrelevant. Justice must somehow make an action fit humanity’s enormous offense.
Mercy comes in by making Christ–the eternal Son of God–take on the full weight of God’s punishment for us. Because He took the full weight, Justice is satisfied; because He took it, Mercy is satisfied.
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I think this is what Jon Rowe is referring to but the Lamb is not administering the punishment.
REV. 14:9-11
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
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Remember Lots wife. One brief turn of the head and you can get zapped by the salt wand.
Even the small claims court is tough around here.
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Saved By Grace,
Thanks. You are right. But please explain how that passage does not say that the Lamb of God and His angels are the ones who administer the punishment in Hell.
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Joel actually just hit the main point. Your false idea of God’s justice, Jon, is built upon a poor understanding of sin. The wages of sin is death. Not 20 years in prison. Sin causes separation eternally from a holy God. No finite idea of paying for your sins will suffice be it jail time or any other subjection to punishment on earth, especially man derived.
This is why men like Edwards and others preached heavily on sin and its consequences. Sin corrupts, wrecks havoc, destroys everythign it touches and brings death. It’s why bad things happen to us and 5 year olds, but being subjected to the results of sin (like being raped) do not pay for our own sins.
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I always smile when someone tries to create God in their own image. As if we can use our imperfect human logic to determine how God should act or what He should be like.
Isaiah 55:8-9
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
I love how Job answers God in Job 40:1-5
Then the LORD said to Job,
“Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who reproves God answer it.”
Then Job answered the LORD and said,
“Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to You?
I LAY MY HAND ON MY MOUTH.
“Once I have spoken, and I will not answer;
Even twice, and I will add nothing more.”
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Joel Mark,
I’m not sure if we cn comprehend what Satan has in store for those who end up in hell but, i do know that some folks are bound and determined to get a feeling for it anyway just by the way they prefer to live their lives in earth.
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JON ROWE,
Rev 14 is not in the context of the final judgment which is described in Rev 20. The temperal punishment of Edom was also described as endless burning in Is 34:8-17. The following passage is clear that eternal torment is not in the presence of God.
2 Thess 1:6-9
For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD and from the glory of His power.
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I think we’ve hit at a problem which is that I don’t believe that objective standards of justice are derived from the infallible Bible any more than we need the Bible to discern 2+2=4, an objective truth.
The Bible on the surface contains seemingly thousands, perhaps tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of contradictions. “Hermeneutics” is just an elaborate logical dance attempting to resolve these contradictions.
We’ve stumbled upon one of the many thousands of contradictions today:
“He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
AND:
“For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD and from the glory of His power.”
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“The temperal punishment of Edom was also described as endless burning in Is 34:8-17.”
Another contradiction: “Temporal” punishment being described as “endless burning.”
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I don’t recommend developing a biblical doctrin of heaven or heall from the book of Revelation alone. It is a vision (inspired by God and experienced by John) and I think the best way to respect the authority of Revelation is to keep in mine that it was not intended to be read literally but often figuratively. The inspired meaning is just as powerful, in my view, even if read parabolically.
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Just to clarify the point:
According to God’s Word – Jesus administers the temporal punishment that occurs during the Great Tribulation but He is not present during the eternal punishment of the lake of fire – because He will be busy shining His light on the new Jerusalem.
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JON ROWE – Ever hear of figures of speech? You are missing the point – Do you see that Rev 14 is not describing eternal punishment and 2 Thess 1:6-9 does not support your response in Post #8?
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No 45. And not only do I not see this and plenty of “orthodox Christians” also do not see this. What I see is a contradiction that can be resolved either way. You tend to resolve it one way and other theologians resolve it the other way.
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“because He will be busy shining His light on the new Jerusalem.”
As a God of “Infinite” power, Jesus isn’t “busy” doing anything.
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JON ROWE -
So you throw out 2 Thess 1:6-9 and you accept a literal interpretation of a figure of speech in Rev 14 out of context? Who are the other theologians who resolve this differently?
“Jesus isn’t “busy” doing anything” – Again, a figure of speech.
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“Who are the other theologians who resolve this differently?”
http://www.puritanfellowship.com/2007/10/lost-doctrine-of-hell-those-in-hell-are.html
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I believe when people describe hell as the absence of God they mean that the one condemned to hell does not experience any of the goodness of God, not that God, who is omnipresent and omniscient has somehow created a place that He is incapable of seeing or knowing about.
In reading Jonathan Edward’s Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God it is impossible to miss the imagery of God’s hand holding the sinners out of the fire. The grace of God stands in clearest relief against His wrath.
The absolute standard of justice is part of God’s own nature. He must be just because He cannot act against Himself.
“As a God of “Infinite” power, Jesus isn’t “busy” doing anything.
The crucified and resurrected Jesus is still Christ incarnate. The glorified body is beyond our imagination but it still, is by virtue of being incarnate, not omnipresent.
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Regarding Hitchens, I still recall the unthinkably reprehensible things that he said (very publicly) about Jerry Falwell on the very day of Falwell’s passing.
Without qualification, anyone with that much sulfer-hot hatred and viscious disrespect for humanity cannot be taken seriously by intelligent and decent people, not even to the slightest extent.
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JON ROWE,
Plenty(?) of “orthodox” Christians are represented by the blog you referenced?
So your “theology” is based on ignoring 2 Thess 1:6-9? Is that correct?
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Saved by Grace:
That’s what I found in 5 minutes. I could find many more if you wished. I can even try to get one to post here for his way of explaining away 2 Thess 1:6-9 just as you explain away REV. 14:9-11.
That’s what hermeneutics does. It takes seemingly contradictory parts of the Bible and presents one text as a dominant interpretation for a theory and cleverly explains away other texts.
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Jon in 53: I’ll bite!
It is unnecessary to view the 2 Thess. and Rev. 14 verses as contradictory. The term “presence” in English translations of those verses comes from different words in the original, prosopon in the former, enopion in the latter. Contextual study and responsible inference of the authors’ intent is a more realible “hermeneutic” (yeah, I said that) than a strict crowbarred reading of the text.
I believe you’re being hypercritical, Jon, to shoehorn meaning into those verses (and possibly “hundreds of thousands” of others). Undoubtedly, there are numerous alleged contradictions I can’t account for. But it does no good to exercise the same simplistic reading you criticize, only from the other side of the fence.
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What is the difference between “prosopon” and “enopion”? I’ll admit to having no understanding and having done no study of the original Greek, Hebrew, what have you.
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I think we’ve hit at a problem which is that I don’t believe that objective standards of justice are derived from the infallible Bible any more than we need the Bible to discern 2+2=4, an objective truth.
I’ve noticed this problem in other WMB threads, since it’s not just traditional Christians who show up on this site.
What we’ve really run into as our fundamental difference isn’t a possible contradiction between Thessalonians and Revelation, nor is it even whether eternal Hell is just.
What we’ve run into is a question of Who is God? If I understand you right, you admittedly say that principles of justice–like mathematics–are determined outside and without reference to God’s Word in Scripture. In other words, they’re independent, not codependent. You don’t need God to have a mathematical equation or justice. This view, whether you admit it or not, sidelines God, because He does not set the rules and does not need to exist for the rules to operate.
Traditional Christianity, on the other hand, proposes that all laws–mathematics and justice–are set by God. God made the world, invented the laws of physics, made it so 2 + 2 = 4, and created the concept of justice. Everything is explained primarily in His word (especially concepts like justice )and secondarily in human writings (especially concepts like math, which admittedly don’t receive much treatment in Scripture). According to this view, God is thus the Master, the one who sets the rules and determines how they operate. The principles of justice spring from His being.
Only once this worldview is in place–along with a good healthy understanding of God’s mercy–will an eternal Hell make sense and not seem so outrageously unjust.
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That’s what hermeneutics does. It takes seemingly contradictory parts of the Bible and presents one text as a dominant interpretation for a theory and cleverly explains away other texts.
Or it takes texts and highlights possible contraditions between them and tears the whole document to figurative shreds.
Hermeneutics is a tool, nothing more. It can be used for good or ill, and it is always used in keeping with the reader’s worldview.
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“Only once this worldview is in place–along with a good healthy understanding of God’s mercy–will an eternal Hell make sense and not seem so outrageously unjust.”
Honestly, even if I had this worldview in place, it would make the “truth” into really bad news with a silver lining: As I understand the view, salvation is a “narrow path,” and the overwhelming majority of humanity which will almost certainly include many loved ones will go to Hell. The silver lining is you can escape the fate that will befall the overwhelming majority.
I suppose this depends on what Hell is really like. If it’s a place where folks voluntarily choose to go so they want to enjoy sinning not in God’s presence — eating, drinking, gambling, gossiping, fornicating, etc. — like a Las Vegas nightclub, then the “bad news” theory really doesn’t apply. However, if Hell is as bad as most here say it will be (as bad as Edwards describes!) then it’s horrific news indeed.
This reminds me of a clip I watched from RC Sproul talking with Ben Stein about Stein’s new movie. Sproul said if Darwinism/atheism is true (he conflated the two of them, with which I know many theistic and Christian Darwinists would disagree) then it’s horrible news indeed and would bring a tear to his eye when waking up in the morning.
He didn’t appreciate the irony: He said this talking to a Jew — Ben Stein — who is on the road to eternal damnation for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sproul’s notion of salvation is a far worse, far more horrific truth than atheism. And I’m admitting “atheism,” if true, is bad news (something which my atheist friends do not).
I don’t think this debate can be resolved as we believe in different unproven and unprovable premises. My view, I supposed, is colored by an optimistic nature — a nature that wants the movie or book to have a “happy ending.” Atheism has an unhappy ending. And your view on salvation and Hell has an even un-happier ending.
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JON ROWE,
You keep mentioning hermeneutics but then all you have done is quote a verse and base your theology on that one verse and basically told me that your big brother will set me straight if I so desire.
We will have to agree to disagree (strongly).
Also, you asked how Rev 14:10 does not say that Jesus administers eternal punishment – it only says that He is present. (If we accept that it describes hell which I do not)
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JON ROWE,
The book has a happy ending for anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
Rev 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;
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Atheism has an unhappy ending. And your view on salvation and Hell has an even un-happier ending.
Except for that pesky doctrine called “free will,” letting people choose their own destiny.
Free will has been around since the Garden of Eden: “Choose me or choose the Tree.” And now humanity is given the choice between Christ and their own sin. (And “election,” a doctrine difficult even for believers to understand, will nto interfere with free will, as probably even ardent Calvinists would agree.)
I’m not sure we’ll actually resolve the debate either, but it’s fun.
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Where is STEVEG? This kind of thread usually gets him on his soapbox.
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Hi Jon,
I don’t have any formal training in Hebrew or Greek. To find original words and their meanings, I consult Strong’s concordance (among others, all available online). I know that’s no substitute for an advanced degree, but it’s useful nonetheless. In situations like this—where there is some question of harmony between verses—it’s just good hermeneutical practice.
I’m at work and I don’t feel comfortable spending too much time analyzing the words in these verses, but suffice it to say that even in cases when the same word is used in different contexts, there may be wide variation of meaning, and in this case, we’re talking about two different words in the first place. I’m sure you realize all this. If it would be productive, I can (try to) post later after more study of the 2 Thess and Rev 14 verses.
Your other comments re: justice, hell, etc., are also interesting. I hope to have time this evening to respond to them, too. Thanks for the interesting input here.
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Jon Rowe,
let’s take a look at civil law for a moment. Let’s say I am “going with flow of traffic” at 55 mph on a street clearly marked 40 mph. Suddenly, I am pulled over by the police.
Is the cop just in pulling me over? Yes, he is. The law clearly stated not exceed 40 mph. It won’t matter that everyone else was going the same speed. It won’t matter if I obeyed the speed limit more times than I broke it. The cop is totally justified in giving me a speeding ticket. I am expected to obey that law 100% of the time, not 51% or more.
Now, if human law expects 100% obedience, then surely God requires no less, and is totally justified in punishing just one sin. I don’t need to break every law to be in trouble with the police. Neither do I need to commit every sin or sin more times than not for God to have reason to punish me. Unlike the police, God won’t miss some and get others.
To say a loving God would never send anyone to hell. I agree with you. That God would not because that God doesn’t exist. He is a figment of the imganation, created to suit our sins. The real God must punish sin or he is not just.
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From the universalist side – the problem is not that God would punish us for sin. It’s that eternal punishment doesn’t fit the crime from a human perspective.
But what if God knows that, no matter what, the person in question will never repent and turn to Him out of love. What everyone forgets is that God knows our hearts and thoughts and He knows our words before they come out of our mouths. He knows our past, present and future. He is the perfect judge of our eternal punishment or eternal salvation. The universalist assumes that after a person’s allotted temporal punishment that everyone would automatically repent if given a second chance or a third chance (not likely) and it conjures up an image of God who doesn’t know for sure whether they will turn to Him. Of course this renders Jesus’ death on the cross meaningless if He didn’t pay the penalty for our sins. Now I’m rambling and I need to get home to my family.
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“He referred to what he understood to be a widely accepted Christian vision of heaven, namely, that it consists of all those who are ’saved’ standing and praising God in an eternal church service. That, Hitchens declared, sounds like what most people would consider hell.”
Of course there’s no heaven. No idea could be more childish. The people who believe in heaven are cowards.
If there was a heaven, and if it was filled with Christians, it would most certainly be like hell for a normal person.
Fortunately there is no life after death. Heaven is nothing more than wishful thinking for people who are terrified of reality.
I notice the same people who are insane enough to believe their childhood religious brainwashing about life after death, also believe in the ancient creation myth from Genesis. That makes sense. If people are dumb enough to believe in any of the idiotic Christian beliefs, they’re probably dumb enough to believe everything their worthless preachers and deluded parents taught them to believe.
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bobxxxxx,
when are you going to offer proof for your allegations? All you ever do is name call. Calling someone’s beliefs childish or stupid is attacking the man instead of the argument. That is a logical fallacy.
For someone that claims to be so enlightened and educated, if it’s really so stupid to believe in God, you would think you could offer some valid reasons as to why.
Let me ask you this: Do you believe there are laws in nature? If so, who is the lawgiver?
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Concerned Citizen,
I don’t think your analogy to the civil law is a good one. Indeed, all such analogies to just human laws like a Judge in a court I think will go in my favor because having the “punishment” proportionately fitting the crime is central to such systems. Yes all of the speeders in your example deserve punishments: reasonable traffic tickets. They don’t deserve to have their foots cut off. Eternal damnation is an infinitely more unfair disproportionate punishment.
As regards a fake God vs. a real God, BobXXXXXXX could just as easily “dismiss” your God as fake as the loving God I invoked.
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Kimberly,
I find the Arminian “Free Will” doctrine of choosing Hell pretty unconvincing. And I might note it relates to my discussion on hermeneutics. Just how biblical is it? It’s a doctrine gleaned from some parts of the Bible. Other parts indicate there is no such thing as free will and Arminians and Calvinists both literally interpret the same Bible to hold two contradictory positions.
I don’t believe any person is making an informed consensual decision to reject a God they know to be true. Rather, if your God is the real one, they make a theological error and get eternally punished for it.
BobX seems to be a good example. I genuinely believe in his heart of hearts he believes there is no God. I’ve heard some evangelicals say something like what a surprise atheists are in for when they die. Free willism holds this can’t be true, that these folks on Earth make a conscious choice to reject that which they know to be true. I see no evidence for this. I see devout Muslims praying 5 times a day to God they KNOW to be true. I don’t see them making a conscious choice to reject God, but, assuming your God is the “real one,” making a theological mistake. Ditto with Mormons, JWs, Arians and Socinians.
I’m sure you can cite me a Bible verse that says we all really do know in our hearts your God is true. And that’s the unproven, unprovable premise which we won’t be able to get around.
As an objective observer, when I think about 9-11, I don’t see 19 highjackers who “know” that your Triune Christian God is the real one, but consciously reject Him for a false Allah, but rather folks who KNOW their Allah is the real God. Indeed, their act, horrible as it was, gives far more evidence of their devout faith in that which they KNOW to be true than I see from most Christians.
Again the system of cosmic justice which I find more rational says they should be punished in proportion to the harm they caused. Yours says they are in Hell for not accepting the true God. But ultimately, if yours is the truth, they made a theological error, not a use of their free will to reject that Whom they knew to be God.
This by the way, isn’t a problem for the good old Calvinist who would say, who knows why these folks don’t come to the real God. They are not of God’s elect, so to Hell with them.
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Tony, my husband thinks that at least part of the time will be spent collecting insects, asking questions about them and praising God for the wonders of his creation.
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Rowe,
What basis do you have for saying eternal damnation is not a fair punishment for sins other than it seems unfair to you?
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I am (almost) without words. Not once in any of the foregoing conversation did anyone define God as Love, which is the ONLY biblical definition. One participant went so far as to indicate that God is JUSTICE.
On top of that, Kimberly made the following audacious statement: Traditional Christianity, on the other hand, proposes that all laws–mathematics and justice–are set by God. God made the world, invented the laws of physics, made it so 2 + 2 = 4, and created the concept of justice. Everything is explained primarily in His word (especially concepts like justice )and secondarily in human writings (especially concepts like math, which admittedly don’t receive much treatment in Scripture). According to this view, God is thus the Master, the one who sets the rules and determines how they operate. The principles of justice spring from His being.
Bullpuckey– at least so far as Kimberly seems to have meant this. First– what the heck is “traditional Christianity?” If you really want to find out, read the Fathers. Otherwise, you can go on your merry path believing that “traditional Christianity” started in the 1500s. If you read the Fathers, you’ll find none of this mucky-muck. To them, God is LOVE and indescribable. Rich in mercy and unknowable. Basically, Tony hit this one on all cylinders in his posting (apart from his statement that the angry god is not official doctrine). Yet everybody comes back here to the Comments section claiming to be able to define the undefinable as “justice.” But guess whose “justice” draws the definition? Certainly not God’s but the whole idea of justice that the Roman Catholics (and the Protestants who sprang from them) drew from Tertullian (a lawyer), Augustine (oh, a lawyer), Aquinas (not a lawyer, but might as well have been one), and their ilk– perhaps exactly those folks who proposed that all laws are set by God and ended up subjecting their idea of God to their ideas of penal justice. And guess where they got it? Yes, indeed– from the very example of the Roman court system with which they were intimately familar. Thus, the entire Western theological system is plagued with this idea of courtroom justice into which they’ve managed to shove their idea of God. And so, everybody above, including Jon Rowe, enters the argument assuming that God is the equivalent of courtroom justice and simply want to have their version of the courtroom win out in the debate.
How about we trash all of this crud and start from real “traditional Christianity?” Anybody up for starting from the Bible itself? Uh-oh. Here come all of the Old Testament quotes concerning “justice.” Before ripping them off, do me a favor and understand exactly what is meant in the Hebrew by the term that has been translated (by persons in the Western theological mindset) as “justice.” When you discover that the Hebrew word doesn’t really have a Greek, Aramaic, Latin, or English analog, then maybe the real discussion can begin. Down at the heart of it, God’s justice simply means God putting things right– from His perspective and not from some lawyer’s idea of what courtroom justice ought to conclude.
Folks– God is LOVE, and even then we should tread softly in “defining Him as such,” given that He is so much more than that that one might not even be able to call Him LOVE at the risk of trying to put Him in a box to study under some academic microscope.
Three cheers for you, Tony, on this article. Just remember that the angry god really is official teaching in Roman Catholicism and its offshoot that we call Protestantism; this is all nicely packaged as an appealing divine schizophrenia that we all don’t want to think too much about– (a) the angry father who will punish everyone and can’t accept his children unless his son takes on the punishment they’ve earned by being created; and (b) the loving son who does what his father wants. Put those two into a unity of essence, though, and the whole
thing starts to blow apart.
Cheers, all.
Jonny
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My basis is that sins are finite which is the worse case of the punishment not fitting the crime. Infinite punishment for finite sins = unjust. I know the counter arguments, sin isn’t finite because you are sinning against an infinite God. But I find it totally unconvincing. Steal a lollypop and you deserve to burn forever? Nope. Sorry. A self-evident untruth.
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Rowe,
Why would infinte punishment for finite sins be unjust?
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Jonny wrote, at #72, “…God as Love, which is the ONLY biblical definition.”
Not so fast:
* The most predominate biblical definition of God is not simply that He is love but that He is “holy.”
* God’s self definition, “I am holy” occurs often in the book of Leviticus. (see Lev. 11:44 for an example).
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD.” (Isaiah 6:3, see also Rev. 4:8).
“For thou alone art holy.” (Rev. 15:4).
* In Exodus, God is simply defined as “I Am.” (Ex. 3).
* “The LORD is a warrior.” (Exodus 15:3)
* “God is light” (1 John 1:5).
* “God is Spirit” (John 4:24).
* “He is good” (Ezra 3:11).
* “The LORD is my shepherd.” (Psalm 23:1).
* “The Lord Almighty — he is the King of glory.” (Psalm 24:10).
* “You are kind and forgiving, O LORD.” (Psalm 86:5).
* “For the LORD is good.” (Psalm 100:5).
* God is called “The Creator of the ends of the earth” in Isaiah 40:28.
* Since Jesus is God (”Immanuel” means “God with us”), then he is also “the way, the truth and the life!” (John 14:6).
* Paul wrote; “Is God unjust? Not at all!” (Romans 9:14).
Jonny, if you were saying that all these biblical definitions are compatible with the one that says He is love, then I would agree.
So I agree with Kimberly. That God is “JUSTICE” fits perfectly with the biblical claim that He is “love.”
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Jon,
If sin is merely finite, then it has no spritual reality and divine forgiveness is unnecessary. That is a serious misunderstanding of sin.
Paul wrote; “everything that does not come from faith is sin.” (Romans 14:23).
This is a faith-centered understanding of sin, not a finite understanding.
God’s divine moral will is the basis of sin, in the biblical sense of the word. Breaking that divine will is ’sin’ and this is not simply a finite mis-step.
We are God’s workmanship, created for good works (Ephesians 2:10). He has a moral will for us, a reason for creating us that transcends finite deeds and existence. We were created to live to the praise of his glory (Eph. 1:6). However, “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
Sin is not a finite mis-step but a falling short of the infinite glory of God, for which we were made. Sin offends God Himself.
None of this fits with your notion that sin is finite.
No matter how bad you think sin is, it is worse than you think it is.
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JON ROWE – the system of cosmic justice which I find more rational says they should be punished in proportion to the harm they caused
This is what Joel Mark is trying to explain. You are missing the “harm” that is caused to God, who is infinite, by our “finite” sin.
Psalm 51:4
Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge.
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Rowe 69–Generally, I try to avoid the topic of “free will,” since even Christians over the last five hundred years have not been able to come up with a good explanation for how it works.
I consider myself a Calvinist (although not necessarily a five-point one), and although I cannot understand it, I also hold to some degree of free will. But this is beyond our understanding … and probably also beyond our agreement.
What I’d really like to move on to is the notion of “knowing” about the true God. You use BobX as an example, and astoundingly enough, the 9/11 terrorists as an example of each person “knowing” a “true” God. If, as you suggest, each person truly knows God–their God–and their individual God is for them the true God, that also demolishes the idea of God. God becomes less of a person and more of an idea that we carry around with us, and as an idea, can be adapted to our circumstances and preferences. The God of the Bible “is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”
Now, I have no doubt that BobX really believes there is no God; I have no doubt that you really believe what you are arguing. And it’s not a problem for me. But just because you believe it, doesn’t make it “true,” as in “lining up with reality, the way the world actually works.” Thus, each one of these examples cannot “know” for certain and be right (especially since Allah, like Jehovah, is an exclusive God). They can believe for certain and are welcome to their belief. But they cannot know that their God is the real God at the same time somebody else knows their different God is the same God.
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Joel Mark made a good response to Jonny’s arguments, so I shan’t try further, except to note that because God is love, does not prohibit Him from also having justice in his character (and indeed the Bible frequently refers to Him as a judge). He would be one-dimensional indeed if He were only Love and nothing else at all.
I wanted to clarify, though, why I use the words “traditional Christianity.” I’ve discovered that there are people on this blog who like to consider themselves Christians, or like to consider Mormons Christians, or get confused about whether Roman Catholics are Christians, or even just plain moral–but non-religious–people are Christians. So I use traditional Christianity to speak of that faith encompassed by the creed in I Corinthians 15:3-4, a firm belief in the vicarious life, death, and resurrection of Christ for the sins of mankind.
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In an interview, Obama defined “sin” as “Being out of alignment with my values.”
I think maybe Obama also (like Jon Rowe) sees sin a finite.
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Hi Kim,
When I used the term “know,” I simply meant folks who genuinely believe they think they “know.” For instance folks here will claim things like I “know” this God is real. Likewise a Muslim will claim I “know” my God is real. Or Bob will claim I “know” God doesn’t exist. I would agree with you that the Truth is what it is regardless of what people think they “know.” My point was to disagree with the Arminian view that folks are using their free will to reject a God they “know” to be true. Rather, if your God is the real one, Muslims, Mormons etc. make a theologial error, they don’t die rejecting a God they “know” to be true.
A Calvinist might react, fine they aren’t God’s elect. That’s why they died believing in a soul damning error.
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Re God’s infinite nature. This, it seems to me, points to the very opposite of the infinite harm of sin. God isn’t harmed at all by sin; He is unharmable. It’s like shooting bullets into Superman.
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Rowe,
Is it the unending punishment that seems unfair? Is this too long to be punished for sins to you?
If so, think about our justice system today. Many jail sentences are much longer than the time it took to actually commit the murder.
The harsher the sentence the worse the crime is. This should tell us just how serious sin is in God’s eyes.
Kimberly, I don’t mean any offense, but if you are not a 5 point calvinist and you believe in free will, then you aren’t a calvinist.
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JON ROWE,
That’s why I put harm in quotes because I anticipated your response. But if our sin doesn’t “harm” God, then do you believe that we don’t have to ask God for forgiveness? This is again part of Joel Mark’s argument.
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Kimberly, I don’t mean any offense, but if you are not a 5 point calvinist and you believe in free will, then you aren’t a calvinist.
You a Calvinist, buddy? Calvin actually didn’t invent the Five Points; they were created by his followers and thus are not a complete representation of what he believes.
Generally, I consider myself Calvinist because I am not Arminian in that man has no ability and no desire to come to God alone, without divine grace. The salvific work belongs to the Lord alone.
“Free will” is a touchy subject for anyone; there are verses on both sides of the subject. You have the “elect” and “predestination” aspect, and then you have “God does not want any to perish but all to come to repentance.” (Rather anti-election, that!) So I prefer to hold judgment on a sticky issue … at least for a while.
But I’d rather this thread not be derailed into this eternal arena … maybe we will have another thread later for this. (I see there’s one on rapture theory and eschatology today).
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OK, so maybe I’m the master of overstatement.
However, we need to proceed with extreme caution if we try to put God under a microscope and try to say what He is. We need to be even more cautious when we discover that we are describing His attributes or the ways in which He manifests Himself to us, or what St. Gregory Palamas refers to as His Energies, versus describing Who He IS– the inscrutable ontology of God or, as the Fathers referred to it– God’s Essence.
Many, though not all, of the verses quoted by Joel Mark, refer to God’s Energies– they describe knowledge that we have (or think that we have) ABOUT God. The statement, however, that God IS love, refers to His very Essence– His Being. This is impenetrable to most of us (including me) who end up knowing (or thinking that we know) a lot ABOUT God but have very little in the way of actual knowledge OF God, that is, direct experience of God in a relational way. Much in the same way that, if I spent enough time here on the board, I might know a lot about one or more of you, but I would rarely, if ever, truly know any of you.
Granted, a few of the verses quoted by Joel Mark do go beyond describing God’s Energies and actually go to His Essence. However, none of the verses quoted get us to finding a human judicial notion of justice as part of God’s Essence, or even descriptive of His Energies. Although Kimberly is correct that none of this forecloses finding a human concept of justice within God, the absence of a negative does not prove the positive. A description of God as Judge does not by any means impose human judicial standards upon Him.
One of the points in my disjointed rant and ramble last night is that the whole preceding discussion does just this– it proceeds on the ground that the very Essence of God Himself includes a human concept of “justice” or fair play. Look at all of the discussion between Jon Rowe and his detractors. The discussion is over the degree of punishment that God requires and not whether He requires any punishment at all.
The foregoing discussion is incredibly difficult to square with the Parable of the Prodigal Son in which the Father sought nothing from His son but a heart of repentance and humility. Further, our very own limited human understanding of love and mercy would rebel at calling merciful any Judge who pronounces sentence on the condemned but then takes out that sentence on an innocent person who volunteers to take the place of a condemned person who is repentant. That is not mercy but simply the substitution of one victim for another (even if the condemned is unrepentant, for that matter). “Merciful” might certainly describe the substitute victim, but it will never describe a judge who is constrained by some law which is greater than he. The Persons of the Holy Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, according to traditional Christian understanding are “one in Essence and Undivided.” God is either merciful or not. Unfortunately, most of the previous discussion appears based on a desire by those involved to have their academic, vicarious atonement cake and eat their personal salvation, too.
Although one might properly say that limiting God to Being Love leaves Him as one-dimensional and that such a definition of God is certainly insufficient, I think it would be equally valid to observe that all of the things we know about God easily proceed from Love and are consistent therewith. Conversely, because we know that, at the very least, God IS Love, we should run fast and far away from any idea that is NOT consistent with this, for such an idea would truly be blasphemy.
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Jonny–
I’d like to respond to your most serious argument, the one that takes us furthest away from traditional Christianity–the notion that somehow justice does not fit within God’s character or it negates his capacity for mercy (especially your little analogy with the Judge and the victim).
You write, “our very own limited human understanding of love and mercy would rebel at calling merciful any Judge who pronounces sentence on the condemned but then takes out that sentence on an innocent person who volunteers to take the place of a condemned person who is repentant” as if somehow this negates God’s justice and supports his mercy. They work together, Jonny, justice and mercy, and it is not merely God the Father who is just. Christ Himself called out the Pharisees on their sins and drove the money-changers from the temple: certainly He is just and has an equal sense of sin.
I’ve referenced Milton here before: in Mercy and Justice both, Through Heav’n and Earth, so shall my glorie excel.
Incidentally, the search for what you call a “human concept of justice” does not actually impose our standards on Him. Go back and read my posts again; I’m strongly against imposing definitions and standards on God, as I make clear to Rowe. But we as humans need to know what justice is, and since justice “flows forth” from God, then we ought rightly to begin our search in Scripture.
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Kimberly,
We seem to be talking past each other. Forgive me.
I do not argue that justice does not fit within God’s character or that He does not have a sense of sin. Indeed, His very existence itself defines sin, and the Scriptures speak of the just Judge. However, there are different concepts of “justice” floating around out there. There is the courtroom notion of justice. Unfortunately, our Western civilization has made this notion THE definition of justice. Yet (and Alistair McGrath has done a phenomenal amount of work on this topic in his monumental tome “Iustitia Dei”), the actual Hebrew term employed in the Bible that has been unfortunately translated as “justice” does not carry the meaning of this notion. It was a poor choice of words and has spawned unknown millions of misunderstandings. Tertullian, Augustine, Anselm, and Aquinas all based their understanding of God on this courtroom notion of God and His just Essence and bequeathed their understandings of it to Western Christianity. The Hebrew term, as McGrath demonstrates, means nothing of the sort at all. Rather, the Hebrew term carries with it a sense of God setting relationships aright and of God respecting His promises.
So, because of this error, most Christians in the West today, regardless of stripe or color, have bought wholesale into and perpetuated the idea that “justice” is Roman court style and that God, as just Judge, has this “justice” within His Essence. It is from this perspective that I hold to my proposition that we in the West are imposing our standard on God– no, more that we have anthropomorphized God and set up a false god– created an idol in our image– to worship instead of the true God who is Just in the sense that the Scriptures describe.
Undoubtedly, Justice and Mercy cohabit and work together. However, this is often the refuge of those who want to claim that courtroom justice and God’s mercy go hand-in-hand– which is nonsensical. For this reason, I couldn’t agree with you more that we as humans need to know what real “justice” is and that we can certainly begin our search in Scripture– so long as we understand Scripture’s meaning before drawing any conclusions.
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Jonny,
Please explain the point of the atonement if it’s not the righteous for the unrighteous, and please explain how what you say fits with the following verses in Romans 3.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
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Dear Concerned,
Permit me to replicate here the same passage from the New King James Version:
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Note that this translation does not bear the term “atonement” nor does it bear the term “justice.” Propitiation does not mean some sort of “tit for tat” or pagan concept of divine appeasement but simply means conciliation. This is a particularly stunning concept when you put it together with the Hebrew concept of putting right of relationships which has unfortunately been translated as “justice” in our common English translations and their forebearers. I’m not a real fan of proof-texting, and this difference between your version and the NKJV demonstrates the danger of doing so. I think you’ll find nothing in the NKJV text that is inconsistent with anything I’ve previously stated.
Your use of the term “atonement” belies a Western prejudice and understanding of the nature of sin and death in juridical terms. As I have pointed out in early posts, this has its genesis in a line of reasoning starting with Tertullian and moving through Augustine, Anselm, and Aquinas. The juridical understanding of divine and human conciliation is foreign to the Fathers of the Church other than Tertullian (who later fell into the heresy of the Ultramontanes) and Augustine, whose Manichean background never quite escapes him. Both of these wrote in Latin and were really the only Fathers whom the West could read, as the West eventually lost contact with the rest of the Church.
The Fathers themselves were much more concerned in the early centuries of the Church with fighting heresies such as Pelagianism, Arianism, Nestorianism, monophysitism, and the like (all rehashed today in the pseudo-Christian sects that rise up) that with mapping out all of the mechanics of soteriology. Thus, only from time to time do you see the Fathers directly address this topic. As a whole, you discover that the Fathers reject any idea that death is a punishment from God (try re-reading Genesis very carefully without this standard presupposition and you just may find it shocking– I know that I did when I first saw it) or that God delivered man into Satan’s hands. They rejected these concepts on the grounds that God is not the author of death and that Satan is owed nothing at all by anyone, least of all by God. Rather than trying to use this forum to propound the entire scheme of salvation, allow me to recommend three excellent books if you wish to explore this further: (1) Gustav Aulen’s “Christus Victor” written by a Lutheran attempting to claim this viewpoint for Martin Luther (I don’t think he succeeds in his argument on Luther but his explication of the historic view of salvation is really quite good; (2) H.E.W. Turner’s “Patristic Doctrine of Redemption” (provides good sources; (3) John Romanides’ “The Ancestral Sin” (this is an excellent source, but his tone can be offputting to some who might be offended by his view that certain Western ideas in this area are not only erroneous but heretical); and (4) an article entitled “River of Fire” which can be found at http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm (again, this one can carry a bit of a polemical edge, so approach it with that in mind).
This concept was really pretty mind-blowing/numbing when I first encountered it, as it flew in the face of everything I had ever known. However, as I really thought about Western atonement theology, I found it to be tremendously self-contradictory and unreconcilable to what we really know about God. I hope this helps. Please forgive me if I’ve caused any offense or have said anything misleading or erroneous.
Jonny
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A quick followup for those interested:
The very first articulation of the juridical view of Christ’s work was not done until the 11th century by Anselm in a treatise entitled “Cur Deus Homo?” You can access it on CCEL here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/anselm/basic_works.viii.html?highlight=anselm#highlight or you can Google it up if you don’t like CCEL’s format.
For those who are really interested in the development of this doctrine, check out Jaroslav Pelikan’s massive work “The Development of Christian Doctrine.” The first volume is particularly instructive. The late Pelikan was a Luthern when he wrote this at Yale, He was this century’s and last’s leading historian of Christian doctrine– unparalleled in his depth and breadth. Interestingly, in his later years, he became Eastern Orthodox.
I assume most of you can navigate CCEL or a similar source to find the Reformers’ points of view on the matter.
Also, you’ll find a clear Roman Catholic explication of the matter if you Google up a copy of Harnack’s History of Dogma.
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JONNY,
The King James as well as every other translation renders Yom Kippur as the Day of Atonement which is a foreshadow of Christ’s once for all sacrifice. Maybe I’m misunderstanding but you seem to be advocating not even using the word atonement which I think would be incorrect. I’m wondering if the following passages are more in line with what you are trying to say – God is concerned with reconciling relationship rather than satisfying courtroom justice. But maybe there is a mixture of both going on – justice and mercy.
Romans 5:8-11
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
2 Cor 5:18-21
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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Savedbygrace,
As with all of these things, defining our terms is of critical importance. I proffer as an example the common (mis)use of the term “justice.” We can either use the term in its Hebrew context of “putting relationships right” or we can use the term in its relatively modern context of courtroom justice. The key is ensuring that we understand its use. I certainly don’t object to the use of the term “atonement,” but I do object to the use of the term atonement to denote vicarious satisfaction– whether the person being satisfied is God the Father or the Devil. Further, I would note that I am really trying not to advocate anything here but simply to convey to the readers here that (1) there exists a very deep and ancient understanding of the topic Tony posed for us this week in his article– an understanding that was common in the first millennium and has been forgotten or even trampled upon by the West and (2) the theory of divine satisfaction (whether vicarious or otherwise) is a relatively new theological position that did not appear in Christianity until the second millennium and is not the universal understanding of all Christians everywhere (and in fact has serious implications for our understanding of the nature of God– so serious that I believe it twists the understanding of God in the West so far that he becomes unrecognizable for Who He is and causes many who would otherwise be Christians to flee from what the West holds out as “God”). The topic is excrutiatingly complex, requires a mind willing to look at the issue without the Anselmian lens common to Protestants and RCs both, and is far better advocated by the Apostles, the Early Christians, and those who followed them than a modern like myself (and therefore my recommended reading list, above).
I truly hope this helps.
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OK Jonny–I set out to read the “River of Fire” link, got about halfway through it, and found it so rife with errors that I had to stop and comment.
It’s not completely wrong, of course (there’s very little that’s every 100 percent wrong), and probably the truth, as SBG suggested, is in the middle: justice involves both “courtroom” justice and a reconciliation.
What bothered me most of all perhaps, was that the author, troubled by people’s hostility to God, tries to make God more “palatable” if you will in his definitions, easier for us to accept. (God is not supposed to be “easy” for us to accept, for narrow is the way that leads to salvation).
I think in his quest–well-intentioned, certainly, although misguided–he ignores basic biblical evidence pointing towards the justice of God. I’ve listed here the errors I found, along with a correcting Bible verse.
All Roman Catholics and most Protestants consider death as a punishment from God. Death is a punishment for sin. Most of Romans 1 confirms this, but especially verse 32: “who [sinners], knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.” Certainly death is the natural (non-punishment) outpouring of sin, but it is also a punishment as this chapter indicates.
God — for them — is the real cause of death . Whichever way you read this, this is false, even according to Protestanism (which seems to be anathema to you). Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.” I believe in this verse, and in the courtroom justice of God, and there is no contradiction between these two ideas. Protestanism accepts sin as the direct predecessor of death. Check James out as well.
And do they not consider the devil as a minister of God for the eternal punishment of men in hell . Here is a basic misunderstanding: most Protestants realize that God is LORD over all creation and that the devil is tormented in hell. (See Revelation, especially chapter 19).
Is it not salvation from the wrath of God? . God is wrathful. This again is a Biblical idea, and one that cannot be dismissed without dismissing Scripture. There are those in the Old Testament who sinned and “God’s anger burned against them; in Romans 1, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.” God is a holy God who cannot tolerate sin. Remember Isaiah’s reaction when brought into God’s presence. It wasn’t “Oh, good, I get to be reconciled to God!” it was “Woe is me! I am a sinner [and thus in danger of impending judgment].”
Atheism is the consequence of Western theology. Uh, no. This is a factual error; athiesm existed looong before Christianity came into being; many of the Greek philosophers were athiests (especially as his author defines them.)
He decided that the guilt of Adam’s disobedience descended equally to all His children, and that all were to be sentenced to death for Adam’s sin, which they did not commit. But everybody has committed a sin, all deserving of death. Yes, Adam’s sin passes on to his descendents, but there’s more to condemntation than that. Here’s Romans 5:14: “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”
Even Christ’s love and sacrifice loses its significance and logic in this schizoid notion of a God who kills God in order to satisfy the so-called justice of God. Here the writer forgets what we mean by the word “Trinity.” God did not kill God, as though it is a bad cop/good cop or as though He is a murderer: He sacrificed Himself , for God and Jesus (although not one, that would be heresy) are intertwined into one nature so it is more like a self-sacrifice than anything else.
So in the language of the Holy Scriptures, “just” means good and loving. Not always. Sometimes (”Noah was a just man and walked with God.) But sometimes words referring to justice (Judge) mean just what we think (”Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?)
If we consider hell as a punishment from God, we must admit that it is a senseless punishment, unless we admit that God is an infinitely wicked being. Not true. God does punish people there–those who, as the article correctly noted, refused His love. See the Great White Throne judgment.
Two concluding thoughts (I know, it’s about time!)
1) Ideas are dangerous when they claim that the church has been going wrong for almsot all of it’s history (such as the idea that both Protestants and Catholics are wrong).
2) Certainly we should not lose sight of God’s love in sight of his justice, but also we cannot lose sight of his justice in view of his love. Both appear in the Bible.
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Great response, Kimberly.
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Kimberly/Savedbygrace,
Thanks for the responses. I’ve been hung up today and may be tomorrow, as well, but I will respond as quickly as I can.
Jonny
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First of all, kudos for you for even clicking the link and beginning to read. You evidence a willingness to learn which is increasingly absent from our American mindset.
At the outset, I would again like to register my distaste for “proof-texting.” I acclaim the words of Henry Neufeld when he says “. . . the use of the proof texts is a method that can be twisted to support a variety of viewpoints, that encourages spiritual and intellectual laziness, and produces a form of certainty without an adequate foundation. We need to make our Bible study (or the study of any text) serious by taking the time and effort to hear what the writer is actually saying, rather than abusing his words to support whatever structure we have already built.” I’d go a bit further, even, to say that we need to make our Bible study serious by taking the time and effort to hear what the writerS are actually saying, for, if we are convinced that the Scriptures are indeed truthful, we should rightly expect that they will function as a noncontradictory and coherent whole.
I will also say again that we must do our best to understand the words of Scripture in the context and cultures in which the words were written, rather than the context and culture in which the interpreter lives. This means that we cannot afford simply to see the word “justice” in our English translations and fill it with our notions of the Roman courtroom and retribution any more than we can simply see the word “punishment” in such translations and assume that koine Greek contained one word for retribution and another for corrective acts (which, I understand, it did not).
Your comment that “Ideas are dangerous when they claim that the church has been wrong for almost all of its history (such as the idea that both Protestants and Catholics are wrong)” reflects an unfortunate absence of understanding of Church history in our modern Western culture. Remember that the Church—new Israel—took over the reins of God’s people from the old Israel on Pentecost following Christ’s Ascension. There was only One Church, recited by some still in the Nicene Creed. This Church gave birth to many writings, including the books that were recognized centuries after their writing as the New Testament. The people who lived after the Apostles left volumes of writing from which we can see their struggles with various doctrinal issues which we now take for granted and accept as basic Christianity—the existence of the Holy Trinity, Christ’s divine and human natures, etc. This state of affairs existed for over 1,000 years after Christ’s Ascension—One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that determined the heretical nature of Arianism, monophysitism, monotholetism, and the like, took dogmatic stands on essential matters of the faith, and would have nothing to do with those who insisted on holding to heresy. It was precisely the claim of Rome that the church had been wrong for its entire existence that caused the Roman Catholics to separate itself from communion with the rest of the Churches, and it was from Rome that the phenomenon of Protestantism arose, claiming, again, that the only church it had known had been wrong for almost all of its history, as well. Your comment doubly brands Protestant ideas as dangerous and, simultaneously, fails to comprehend that the ideas I am putting forth, here, are precisely the ideas that were held by the Church and its members prior to the self- separation of Rome in the eleventh century. Perhaps a graphic timeline similar to one published in Time magazine several years ago may help; try here: http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.html
Following this same vein, I’ll note that I would also be bothered if I perceived that an author was trying to make God somehow more “palatable” or easy to accept. However, the author isn’t saying anything novel. He is recapitulating the views of the Church on this matter as they existed prior to Roman separation and as they still exist today within what is known as the Eastern Orthodox Church. The views of the Church are easily found in the writings of the Church Fathers, including the Cappadocian Fathers (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Fathers) who played extremely significant roles in formulating the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, suppressing Arianism, approving Scripture as authoritative, and assembling the Creed—all based on their assessment of the writings and traditions that had been handed down to them from the Apostles, their contemporaries, and those who followed them. As a practical matter, I’d far rather bet on the doctrinal interpretations of the Apostolic Fathers and the Pre-Nicene Fathers than on those of recreational bloggers (or even serious-minded modern Bible scholars) whose entire basis for Biblical interpretation is a bunch of translated words on a page or, at best, the academic speculations of someone who lived 1,000 years (Anselm?) or 1,500 years (Luther? Calvin?) after Christ and had no continuity with the Church as it existed during the first millennium.
I note that you lump into one the concepts of guilt, sin, death, and condemnation, just as you equate God’s holiness with Roman courtroom retributive punishment or “justice.” Likewise, you unwarrantedly fashion God’s warning of natural consequences into an announcement of imposed retribution. The complexity of this subject and your unfamiliarity with the historic Church’s understanding of the ancestral sin really demand more precision in terminology. Nonetheless, let’s take a very small sample of how the Church Fathers viewed such assertions, and particularly that “death IS a punishment from God.”
St. John Chrysostom (Commentary on the Hebrews, Homily 4)- “Next he sets down also the cause of the economy i.e. the Incarnation. “That through death,” he says, “He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.” Here he points out the wonder, that by what the devil prevailed, by that was he overcome, and the very thing which was his strong weapon against the world, namely, Death, by this Christ smote him. In this he exhibits the greatness of the conqueror’s power. Dost thou see how great good death hath wrought?” Death is clearly the weapon of the devil and not of God.
St. Basil the Great (Homily That God is not the Cause of Evil)- “Thus God did not create death, but we brought it upon ourselves by a wicked intention. To be sure, for the reason stated above, he did not prevent our dissolution (our death), so that our weakness might not remain as immortal.” In other words, God is not the author of death, but God does permit death as a mercy to us so that death and corruption will not reign over our natures forever.
St. Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies)- “”But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, “He that believeth in Me is not condemned,” that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith. On the other hand, He says, “He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God;” that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. “For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God.” For those unfamiliar with St. Irenaeus, he lived in the 2nd centurey and was a disciple of Polycarp (who was, himself, a disciple of St. John the Evangelist).
To say that Kalomiros forgets what we mean by the word “Trinity” is naïve, at best. Kalomiros is, in fact, conveying the substance of the understanding of those persons who were instrumental in the early fights (and fights there were) over this very mystery. You, in fact, are confusing Persons and Essence and Nature. This is understandable, of course, in that one must stray from the historic Church’s understanding of the Trinity to make sense of a satisfaction theory of Atonement. Which is precisely why I suggested earlier that a believer in the satisfaction theory must be at least a di-theist, with the Person of God the Father—angry and wrathful and demanding satisfaction—being one deity and the Person of God the Son—loving, self-sacrificing, etc.—being yet another deity. This is not the forum for a discusson of the mystery of the Holy Trinity, so I will simply recommend that you bolster your understanding of this by immersing yourself in the writings of the eary Church councils who set forth this dogma over the course of several centuries.
I could go on and on with quotes from the Church Fathers (other than, perhaps, Tertullian and Augustine) that demonstrate a collective understanding by them of the justice of God as putting relationships right and not as satisfation/reparation-demanding courtroom vindication of rights, death as self-induced separation from/rejection of God as the natural consequence of sin, physical corruption and death introduced as a parasite (and not as natural) into the very nature of man by Adam’s sin brought about by his will and the influence of the God-hating Satan rather than as a punishment from God, and divine punishment as corrective in nature and never retributive. Moreover, these Church Fathers were far closer chronologically to the Apostles and the culture of the early Church than any of us could ever hope to be and certainly closer than the likes of Anselm, Aquinas, Bernard of Clairvaux, and Calvin who developed and perpetuated the Western understanding of this topic in such a way that is inconsistent with that of the early Church.
As for Kalomiros’ assertion that those in the West believe Satan to be a minister of God for punishment of men in hell, I won’t defend his assertion (as I agree with your statement re. Protestant beliefs) other than to suggest that Kalomiros may be implying that, in the West, Satan as the tempter becomes the tool of God to administer death and is, in this sense, a minister of God for punishment of men in hell, even though the West understands, as you point out, Satan to be likewise punished/tormented by God’s will.
I think you should look more carefully, as well, at his assertion that atheism is the consequence of Western theology, for it seems you ascribe too much to it. Kalomiros is not stating that Western theology is the sole cause of atheism but that atheism was unknown in Eastern Christianity, manifesting itself there only when certain theologians attempted to accept or graft onto the East’s theology these principles of Western theology. His point, here, is that when one introduces into human thought the concept of a God who is angry and punishing, the rational human’s reaction will be one of two: (1) rejection and flight (atheism) or (2) attempts at appeasement. Indeed, he would likely see your reference to Greek philosophers as further evidence of his statement—as anthropomorphized gods who were often angry and spiteful were the religion of the day in ancient Greece and caused either attempts at appeasement or, as you correctly point out, atheism.
Your agreement with his implication that, in the West, salvation is from the wrath of God is telling. In the West, the question, whether from a Roman Catholic or a Protestant, is essentially “Are you SAVED?” That is, is your soul in such a state that you will avoid hell? In the East, as the continuation of the early Church, the question is more aptly put “Are you being healed?” That is, are you in such a relationship with God that you are more closely conforming yourself to Him and growing in holiness such that the grip that the disease of sin has over you is loosening?
The point of my postings here is not really to argue these points but simply to reveal to those of you who are serious seekers after God that the angry god about which Tony writes is absent, other than in Augustine and Tertullian, in the first millennium of the Church’s existence. As I have tried to demonstrate, the angry God is a theological innovation in the West that is created through scholastic speculation by men who, through unfortunate historic and linguistic circumstances, had been separated from the theology espoused by the Church Fathers who did not write in Latin. It is solely on the basis of this speculation grounded firmly in man’s concepts of fairness and the judiciary, that the concept of “the transactional God,” demanding satisfaction for sin, has been built.
Thumbs up to Tony for sensing that something was wrong in this. My prayer for all of you serious seekers out there is that you might be spurred to further serious contemplation of this matter and eventually find yourself, as I did, seeking out the hospital rather than fleeing from the jail. As my wish is not to engage in proof-texting, argument, or tit-for-tat over details, I’ll end my comments on Tony’s excellent article at this point.
Jonny
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Jonny: Excellent post. Thanks.
Kimberly: He sacrificed Himself , for God and Jesus (although not one, that would be heresy) are intertwined into one nature so it is more like a self-sacrifice than anything else.
But he returned to life after three days. And not just human life, but his glorious, eternal life. In what way did he really sacrifice anything?
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Jonny–
I’m not sure if you’re still reading this, but I wanted to make a brief response.
First of all, thank you for an engaging conversation; I always enjoy learning about different perspectives. Even though I don’t necessarily agree with them.
Now, we’ve reached a theological impasse, since I shan’t convince you to believe that God can be angry with sin, and you shan’t convince me that He isn’t angry with sin, thanks to the weight of verses in the Old and New Testaments describing His wrath.
What I wanted to respond to was this comment here: As a practical matter, I’d far rather bet on the doctrinal interpretations of the Apostolic Fathers and the Pre-Nicene Fathers than on those of recreational bloggers (or even serious-minded modern Bible scholars) whose entire basis for Biblical interpretation is a bunch of translated words on a page.
Certainly the church fathers make a very good source for correct doctrine, living as they did so much closer to the original events. But the sovereign God of the universe certainly has the capability to preserve His word throughout the centuries, and thus even translations, if done to promote God’s word and not for ulterior political reasons, are trustworthy.
The Lord has given His children the Holy Spirit to help in interpretation, and thus no Christian should kowtow to scholarly interpretations, though scholars’ work, effort, and extensive knowledge should certainly be respected.
But, I appreciate your point-of-view and also the additions to my reading list.
Cheers! Kimberly
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