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You’ve got mail: From Heaven
For individuals concerned about the fate of family and friends left behind following the rapture, a new website is offering a unique service: the ability to send e-mails to loved ones six days after the rapture. According to the website, Youvebeenleftbehind.com “gives you one last opportunity to reach your lost family and friends For Christ.”
Wondering how such a service would work? Developer Mark Heard said his server has a “fail-safe” clause: If three of his five employees fail to log on to their work accounts after six days, the e-mails will be sent. Of course, that’s assuming the Internet is still functioning, says skeptic Randy Maddox, a theology professor at Duke divinity school: “In one sense, they’re arguing it will be a time of great disaster, but in another sense he’s saying, ‘I promise my Web site will be working.’ There are logical incongruities with the model, and there’s basic theological incongruities.”
What do you think of the idea?
back to top73 Comments to “You’ve got mail: From Heaven”
I saw this on Jon Rowe’s blog. The fellow who posted it pointed out that it would be incredibly foolish for any unbelievers to watch as millions of Christians float away into the air, yet think, “You know, I’m still not sure they were right”
All of the “Left Behind” stuff is kind of funny. I have to admit that I’m not exactly sure what all the Premillennial-dispensationalist believes, but from what I have heard, it sounds like quite a show!
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Oh the gullibility of American Evangelical “Christians”. Why not send the emails today so that if there really is a rapture (which I find no where in scripture), perhaps the lost loved ones will go on the first trip up?
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I think it’s a dumb idea.
The link misrepresents much evangelical thinking. It says that evangelical theology teaches that Christ will whisk away believers and the remaining will remain seven years under the rule of Anti-Christ. This simplifies the teaching to the point of error.
First, it is pre-tribulation rapture theory. The Bible (I Thess. 4:14f) teaches that there will be what we call a rapture. The Bible never uses the word, but that is the effect of what Paul describes. Nowhere, does the Bible teach that Christians will not undergo tribulations. Christ promises help during, but not deliverance from the presence of evil.
Matt. 24:24, Jesus said, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they should deceive the very elect.” (emphasis mine) The elect are still around.
Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened … and the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
30 Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn …
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
There is much disagreement on this sequence. By my belief is in a mid-tribulation rapture, when the believers are in dire straits. Jesus says, 24:31 “a great sound of a trumpet”.
Paul, I Thess. 4:16, says that the Lord will descend with a shout and with the trump of God.
Paul, I Cor. 15:52 says ”In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.”
My personal belief is that this occurs at the “last” or seventh trumpet of Rev. 11:15f.
That’s more than I can deal with extensively at this time.
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Chas – I tend to believe as you do. But I also realize, as I’m sure you do as well, our finite minds may have it all wrong, so I’ve decided to trust Jesus no matter what happens.
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The internet was originally conceived as a military network able to withstand a nuclear attack. There are supposed to be multiple routes to every point. The real internet falls somewhat short of that goal, but it does an ok job. You might remember earlier this year when the entire country of Iran was taken offline.. it only happened after 3 or 4 separate links all went down within a week or two. I never heard much about the real causes, but conspiracy theories abound.
Anyway, assuming God is a premillennialist, and depending on when the tribulation occurs, how severe it is (more or less bad than a nuclear war?), and how smart this goofball has been about setting up his website (probably not very, but I suppose I shouldn’t assume), there’s a good chance the emails will go out.
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Rostin, maybe these e-mails are actually the angel with the “everlasting gospel” of Rev. 14:6
Actually, the problem with this and the fatal error of the Left Behind series is an assumption that everything in Revelation is in some sequence. However, the plagues of the seals, trumpets and bowls of wrath appear to be a sequence, as were the Egyptian plagues.
Karen has taken the correct choice.
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I really don’t believe the dispensational understanding of the end times anymore, though I was raised with all the charts. I’d take the position of “partial preterist” today (that much of Revelation was fulfilled between the time John wrote it and today). Some really quick points:
-The idea that Christians will be saved from some future tribulation completely falls apart if you look at about two verses within their actual context (e.g., that the promise to save believers from wrath was given to a first-century church).
-Those who spend too much time with end-times prophecy, dispensational model, seem to see it as the climax of history: Satan is defeated, Christ is victorious, etc. Yet biblically, the cross and resurrection are history’s climax. If Jesus wasn’t victorious on the Cross, what on earth about the end times will suddenly make Him the victor? What earns Him the victory, theologically, if the Cross did not? To me this is huge–and ignored.
-There will be an end someday, of course, but it seems to be an end all at once, and not some long drawn-out affair. Much of dispensational teaching is completely contrary to biblical truth (the presence of a temple and sacrifices in the Millennium is almost a blasphemous idea, for instance–according to Scripture, particularly Hebrews, there is no more sacrifice after Jesus).
I could go on all day, and I have work to do. But I think there’s too much about dispensationalism that contradicts scriptural truths, and it’s too easily dismantled when one looks at actual passages and biblical truth.
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It just strikes me as a weird idea… How does he know his employees will be raptured? If they aren’t, those e-mails never get sent….
And how would you look if the rapture happened, and you didn’t get taken? A bunch of e-mails get sent out in your name, as though you weren’t here, but yet… there you are!
PT Barnum had it right…
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Probably what bothers me the most about a pretrib/premillenial rapture is the complete lack of evidence for it in Scripture, and also the intense complexity. I’ve heard pre-trib Christians work through the Tribulation years and they have Christ half-descending and fully descending and Christians coming up once and then going back down at the end. It just seems so much simpler to say that Christians meet Christ in the air as He comes down and sets His feet on the Mount of Olives, as prophesied.
So I plump for the post-millenial viewpoint.
Although I might consider myself a pan-millenialist: it will all pan out in the end!
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According to 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 it seems that a little patience is all that any of these believers need concerning those left behind.
God says that “as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. And, if God says He will be All in All, that is what will happen since Christ came to save the lost—which would be everyone—and Christ will accomplish His purpose (Isa 45:24-26a & Isa 55-11). IMHO, it may take the stubborn longer to understand and some may need to experience the second death, but God will be All in All.
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OK–after checking the website, I am appalled. I didn’t realize they were charging for this service, Christian-to-Christian, a service which somebody might (loosely) call witnessing.
These people are charging for other people to reach out–however clumsily and idiotically–to their lost friends and family.
These people should be ashamed of themselves. Goes against everything Paul said in Corinthians.
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Cheryl – just to address one of your points: I think the climax of history comes at the end, but not for the reason you mention. The climax occurs because everyone finally KNOWS that Jesus was the Messiah. Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess. The sacrifice was complete at the cross. However, Satan is still rampant in our world. At the end, he will be cast into the lake of fire and not allowed to roam free and cause trouble. That could certainly be a climax.
For the record, I haven’t decided what I believe about the rapture. It doesn’t make sense to me, though, that the Church would still be around during the reign of the anti-Christ. What purpose would it serve for the Church to be here? I don’t think that means we escape all tribulation; we have hardships now! But God has a plan for His people – the Jews – and I don’t know that the Church is a part of that. It’s a lot to try and grasp, and I have only scratched the surface in my own mind. Interesting topic, though. And, I suppose, it doesn’t matter if I understand it fully – God will fulfill his plan either way.
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PETER L,
The Greek word “harpazo” which we translate in English as “caught up” is translated in the Latin Vulgate as “rapturo” . So there isn’t debate about whether the Bible says we will be caught up or raptured. The debate is about the timing.
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Sending txt messages to a cell phone would be a better system and more would be saved. More people have cell phones, and the cell phone network is much more robust and immune to power outages and other disaster scenarios than a wired, e-mail based network.
bff TravB: JC tru dat, ITYS! bleev 2day bro. Fess thOz sins ASAP. rpnt nb svd. nxt bus lvs at 11. CU n HVN! ttyl!
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I’ve considered setting up an automated email that, if I did not stop it once a week, would send an email to my wife reminding her where my life insurance policy and other key info is. How’s THAT for goulish?
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Cheryl D. – I agree with you 100%. I thought I would be alone here with those beliefs, so never shared them. Nice to know I’m not.
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The words dumb and dumber come to mind.
I’ve settled the issue by becoming a pro-pan mil; If there is a millennium I’m for it (pro), besides with God in charge it will all pan out in the end.
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And then we could have all kinds of theological fun, as Thomas indicates above, with the scenario where fewer than three of the key employees get raptured. Oops! Guess you were all about the “Lord, Lord,” but not doin’ what He’s sayin’!
Bonus points if you work Hebrews 6 into your comment somewhere.
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RR–I actually thought of that too: what if fewer than three are raptured? What if they’re really not saved!!
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“OK–after checking the website, I am appalled. I didn’t realize they were charging for this service, Christian-to-Christian, a service which somebody might (loosely) call witnessing.”
What about Christian bookstores selling books to Christians? I don’t see how it goes against Corinthians. Did not Paul say that preachers should be paid in Corinthians?
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SAVEDBYGRACE – 13
You are absolutely right!
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SteveHU–
It has to do with the purpose. I think you’ll find that the Christian bookstore has a purpose to provide nice gifts and stationary that fit a “spiritual need” in the purchaser’s life; many help to supply fiction and entertainment (e.g. music, DVD’s, and poorly-written novels).
But this website exists with the avowed purpose of evangelism: the ability for sending a loved one a message on how to get saved .
If you’d read the ABC news article linked, you’d see I’m not the only one thinking this guy’s just out to make a quick dollar and has little real concern for those Left Behind.
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Chas – I’m largely with you (though “mid-trib” is often taken as meaning at the 3 1/2 year point, and I tend to think we’re looking at something past the middle point, thus the term “pre-wrath” for me).
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KRM
When I say “at the seventh trumpet”, I mean pre-wrath. In the Bible, God never spares his people from the trials of this world, even if it was due to judgement (plagues, drought, captivity) but he has always delivered them from his wrath. e.g. Noah, Israel during the plagues, Lot, etc.
I believe God’s people will undergo tribulation, but not wrath (the bowls).
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Regarding pre-wrath, though, you all have to deal with the “two returns of Christ” complexity: once to retrieve His saints, and once to touch down on the Mount of Olives at Armaggedon. It’s straining a little, I think, to say He comes about halfway down and then comes all the way down (and sometimes the Christians come halfway down the second time, so they return with him).
Post-trib is so much simpler.
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TL, believing Jews (those who believe in their Messiah, Jesus Christ) are part of God’s people, along with the rest of the church. Jews who don’t believe aren’t “God’s people” any more than unbelieving Gentiles are.
I see no biblical warrant for two distinct “peoples of God” on this side of the Cross, any more than there were before the Cross. (Those who believed were always accepted into the family of faith. Rahab, for instance, in the Old Testament, or Ruth.) Thinking of Jewish believers as somehow outside the church strikes me as icky (theologically problematic and potentially anti-Semitic), and Paul seems to deal with that issue at some length in numerous places.
Some samples: There is no Jew nor Greek, male nor female. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything. We are grafted into the same olive tree. If we are believers in Jesus, we are Abraham’s seed. That’s just a few off the top of my head, all from Paul, all seeming to indicate that we are one body. Paul himself was a Jew, of course, so either he isn’t part of the church or believing Jews ARE part of the church. And Jesus was Jewish; I certainly want to be part of the group He’s in! Peter’s vision to kill and eat unclean animals prepared him to accept Gentile believers as equals. I could go on, but that should be enough for a start. The Bible is loaded with examples that we are one in Christ, if we’re in Christ–Jews and Gentiles alike. Dispensationalism is absolutely undone by that truth.
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In the early 19th Century Bible scholars dismissed all the prophecies that indicated that the people of Israel would again form a nation. It seemed impossible.
In 1948 it became a reality.
In 1967 Jerusalem came back under Jewish rule. Jesus had said that Jerusalem would be trodden under the feet of Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles were completed.
If these events occurred in fulfillment of Bible prophecy, then we can trust that other such prophecies will be fulfilled.
I’m not stating anything about the rapture, but I think that pre-millennialists are more likely right than a- or post-.
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I’ve never understood this Jewish business, to be perfectly honest. The Jews are God’s chosen people – from the beginning of time. And yet, they don’t believe that the Messiah has come! They are still waiting! How does that work with being His Chosen? Obviously, if they come to believe in Christ, they are now Christians and a part of the Church – not Jewish in any other way than heritage. But what about Jews who are still waiting? It seems that God has a plan for Israel, and the Church and Israel are 2 different entities. It’s all very interesting, and will take more study on my part – and perhaps a lifetime of it – to start to grasp it. And, I realize, everyone seems to have an opinion on the subject of the end times. It’s always interesting to see what you bloggers are thinking! Thanks for the insights and thoughts…
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KIMBERLY,
I agree with you on post-trib.
The rapture occurs the same day the wicked are utterly destroyed in the battle of Armageddon after the tribulation (Rev 19:11-21)
Luke 17:26-37 – Like in the days of Noah and Lot – the righteous will be gathered together in the clouds like eagles THE SAME DAY the wicked are utterly destroyed with the Anti-Christ.
Also, the Greek word meaning ‘to meet’ in 1 Thess. 4:17 occurs only two other times
1 – Acts 28:15 – Paul is coming to Rome so the disciples in Rome travel more than 30 miles to meet him outside of Rome and then escort him back into the city
2 – Matt. 25:6 – The bridesmaids (virgins) go out to meet the bridegroom and then escort him into the wedding banquet (not back to where the bridegroom came from)
Historical precedent says that when a new king was inaugurated he would come to the capital city, the people would come out to meet him outside the city, and then escort him back into the city for a celebration. This is the scene at the triumphal entry in John 12:12-13 where the people come out to meet Jesus outside Jerusalem before he enters the city. The idea here is that we meet Jesus in the air and then escort him back down to earth.
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You guys who study Greek and Latin simply must meet a friend of mine. She’ll be posting soon. She studies the ancient languages too. (Too resurrect an old joke: It’s all Greek to me!
)
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TL – Just one little thing – We need to remember that believing Gentiles are grafted onto the tree of believing Israel. Sometimes when people refer to Jews who are saved, it seems that they are saying, in effect, that the saved Jew has been grafted on to “the tree of the Church”, so to speak. But that’s not how it goes.
I don’t believe, as someone said above, that there are 2 peoples of God, but I do believe that God still has a plan for the Jews, that one day their spiritual eyes will be open, & many more will be saved.
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Good point, Karen – since they are God’s chosen people, that makes sense!
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Travis 14,
I think I figured it all out but the ITYS (hope I did not type something bad), what does that say?
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Karen, TL, Go to Zechariah, read Ch 12 through Ch 14 for what it says, not what someone, including me, says it says.
Then go to Isaiah 61 and read verses 1-3.
Now go to Luke 4:18f. Ask yourselves “Why did Jesus stop abruptly and not finish the quote?”
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#13: The Greek word “harpazo” which we translate in English as “caught up” is translated in the Latin Vulgate as “rapturo” . So there isn’t debate about whether the Bible says we will be caught up or raptured. The debate is about the timing.
As Keith Green used to say, “Pray for pre but prepare for post.” Good advice.
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So, if you sign up for this service and then you die, do your heirs get a refund? It would be really weird to get an e-mail from someone who says they were raptured but who actually died 50 years before….Of course, people’s e-mail addresses change constantly, so the vast majority of e-mails would never reach the person anyway.
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Hi Mumsee,
ITYS = I Told You So
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Thanks Travis, I never would have thought of that! And I did try for some time.
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Chas – I will do that later. I have a Bible study tonight, so I will have a chance to peek at that before we start. Thanks for the advice!
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Thanks for the references, Chas. I looked them all up and found that absolutely fascinating.
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#29 Savedbygrace — “The rapture occurs the same day the wicked are utterly destroyed in the battle of Armageddon after the tribulation (Rev 19:11-21) Luke 17:26-37 – Like in the days of Noah and Lot – the righteous will be gathered together in the clouds like eagles THE SAME DAY the wicked are utterly destroyed with the Anti-Christ.”
I’m not sure where you find “utterly destroyed,” but if I may, I’d like to offer a differing opinion.
There are three fates for the “wicked” taught in the Bible: 1. Eternal torment, 2. Extermination, 3. Reconciliation.
Eternal torment is the most generally accepted or obvious teaching. “And if thy hand offend the, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” Mk. 9:43-44. —or— “Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” Mt. 25:41. Other verses: Rev. 14:9-11a, Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10.
Extermination or total, irreversible destruction is seemingly taught in other verses. “Whose fan is in His Hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” Mt. 3:12 —or— “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” Mt. 13:40-42. Other verses: Mt. 10-28; Mt 13:47-50; 2 Pet. 2:12; 2 Thes. 1:9.
Yet others teach that all men will ultimately be saved – “For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved” (Jn. 3:16,17) —or— “Love never faileth” (1 Cor. 13:8).
But will, or could, God’s love for the whole world essentially fail by being for only part of the world—only the saved? Would such failure seem consistent with the other attributes of God? If God loves the whole world, in the end why would he redeem only part of the world—i.e. only believers? “And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 Jn. 2:2) Others: Is. 53:6-12; Jn. 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:14-19; Col 1:20; Jn. 12:32; Rom. 5:18-19.
When those thinking Eternal Torment is the fate consider that the word translated as “forever” in Jonah actually meant three days and three nights; that a slave not wanting to leave his master and has his ear bored through with an awl shall serve his master “forever” or a lifetime, whichever comes first; or Solomon’s temple dedicated to the Lord “forever” and the Lord in acceptance said He would put his name there “forever,” yet the temple lasted only about 400 years. So, it seems that usage determines meaning and one reason why a believer in Extermination laughs at the doctrine of Eternal Torment. He knows that Biblical usage, correctly translated, is against any such meaning. In fact, God seems to work with “ages” and often the “forever” or “eternity” is really meant until the end of the “age.” This is another huge study and there isn’t room to go into that here but, if you’re curious, check out the word “aion” in Strong’s Concordance. BTW, since you are “saved by grace,” know that we live in the “age of grace” thought to be a period of time from Christ’s ascension to His return during which man may choose to accept or reject the Savior.
But the believer in Extermination may not see that his own doctrine can be overthrown by the same appeal to Biblical usage. Young’s Analytical Concordance lists 45 Hebrew words and 10 Greek words translated as “destroy”, while 31 Hebrew words and 4 Greek words are translated “destruction.” And they have a variety of meanings: “to kill”, “to mar”, “to bruise”,”to break”, “to cut down”, “to put an end to”, “to abolish”, “to lay waste”, etc. In the story of the flood it is written that God said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth.” Jeremiah pronounced woe against Jerusalem and in fact, Jerusalem probably has been “destroyed” more frequently than any other city in the world, but it still exists. Sodom was more completely “destroyed” than any other city of which we know. Jude 7 says it was “set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” But Sodom is to be restored again, so her people surely are not exterminated—See Ezek. 16:44-63.
But how about Jesus’ statement: “fear Him Who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”? (Mt. 10:28) That sounds formidable until you know that the same word for “destroy” is used in this statement: “He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth (destroyeth) his life for My sake shall find it” (Mt. 10:39). If his life was exterminated it couldn’t be found again. Usage determines meanings. According to Biblical usage there is not a single clear statement of the total and complete extermination of sinners in the whole Bible, not one.
The above is a sampling, but sufficient for me to think that Eternal Torment and Extermination are unlikely and counter to the character of God, and only Reconciliation remains.
Because of what Jesus Christ has done and will yet do on behalf of all mankind, the righteousness of God assures the salvation of ALL in due time. The sacrificial work of the Son of God has been finished on the cross. The saving work of the risen Son of God has only just begun and will continue until ALL have been delivered from sin and death. Then ALL will be subjected to God the Father and God will be ALL IN ALL.
I know this deflates the prideful, sinful notion that the “saved” are better than the unsaved—whom the saved will not need to share “eternity” with because they will not be around—but to understand more fully that I am not greater, as a human, than the worst of all sinners—Paul being “chief” among them—helps me see all other people more as Jesus did. And when my sin is suppressed, it’s easier to treat them that way.
If you want to learn more, read: The Outcome of Infinite Grace by Dr. Loyal F. Hurley
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RonD – I completely disagree, but don’t have time to go into it fully. God gave man free will. He also gives us the gift of His Grace – the gift of salvation. Not everyone will accept it. Those people have chosen eternal separation from God. That is, hell. Eternal Life with Him is available for everyone, but I do not believe that everyone accepts it.
I also do not believe that eternal damnation is against the character of God. God is just. He cannot abide by sin. He has given us the Way to him. Unfortunately, man is too prideful and stubborn to accept it.
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TL — “Those people have chosen eternal separation from God.”
Where does this occur in the Bible? Hint: it doesn’t.
If God expects us to forgive “70 times 7″ how could “eternal” or “forever” possibly be in God’s cards against sinners? God’s character, as even my minimal human understanding of it shows, would deny Him holding anything close to such a petty, and sinful, grudge resulting in revenge of the nature you suggest. It’s impossible.
If you think man’s “free will” is stonger than God’s ability to influence that will, read on.
TL — “He cannot abide by sin.”
Why do you limit God’s ability to deal with and eventually get the most stubborn sinner to repent? If you think He can’t do that, then He is not the omnipotent God you think you understand Him to be. According to you, He has a flaw, a weakness and a serious inability. That, or your God isn’t my God.
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He could get him to repent, but he won’t. He could have kept Adam and Eve from sinning, and we wouldn’t all be in this mess. He wouldn’t have sent his Son to die for us. But He didn’t. Why? He doesn’t want us to love him because we are forced to. If we choose to follow other gods, we are free to do so. But we cannot be in His presence after death. It saddens God that anyone should perish. That doesn’t mean they won’t.
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Kyle27–
Remember there is a difference between pre/mid/post-tribulation and pre/post/a-millenial.
“Tribulation” theories refer to the timing of the rapture. “Millenium” theories refer to the existence and timing of that thousand-year reign called the millenium. As I mentioned before, I’m post-trib rapture, but I’d probably be pre-millenial (in other words, we have the Tribulation before the Millenium.) Post-Mill argues for world steadily getting better (we are in the millenium) and, especially considering current events, doesn’t seem logical. Amillenial (usually represented by partial and hyper preterism) suggests that we are in the millenium; it refer to nothing besides that time period after Christ’s death. This is certainly more logical than post-mil, but given the Biblical evidence for a distinct period of time in which Christ will rule on earth, pre-mil seems the better choice.
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SBG @29: The Luke 17 passage refers to people being taken in judgment. So why do you think that the Rapture occurs the same day as the events of Rev 19? In fact, no Biblical passage on the tribulation mentions or refers to the Church, and the rapture of the Church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the Second Coming of Christ after the tribulation.
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Peter L. @35: I love the music and ministry of Keith Green (which was something that God used greatly to challenge and draw me into missions), but why should we “pray for pre” if God’s echatological plan has already been made?
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TL — “He could get him to repent, but he won’t.”
No, God won’t force anything. He doesn’t need to. The choice will be entirely of man’s volition using his free will. Men repent as a result of life circumstance and/or the eventual realization that there is a need for a relationship with God.
BTW, since God isn’t malevolent, these circumstances causing repentance must come from somewhere else—usually the results of choices the man made earlier. How would you choose to be loved? From choice or from coercion?
“He could have kept Adam and Eve from sinning, and we wouldn’t all be in this mess.”
You’ve heard of the “trials” God gives us to enable our faith to grow—James 1. Would it seem out of place for Eve, followed by Adam to have failed one very serious trial that had consequences for all mankind? Would it seem like God to not know what was happening between Eve, Adam and Satan? Disobedience happened and a just God brought justice. But, a just God was also just in the way He provided for us—those not directly involved, but who must live with the results—to choose to return to fellowship with Him.
“He wouldn’t have sent his Son to die for us. But He didn’t. Why?”
Please restate. I don’t understand.
“He doesn’t want us to love him because we are forced to.”
True, see above.
“If we choose to follow other gods, we are free to do so. But we cannot be in His presence after death.”
Again true. And we are told God is very patient and always willing to forgive. It’s still up to us as to when we repent.
“It saddens God that anyone should perish. That doesn’t mean they won’t.”
Again with the limiting of God. Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades. Jesus death on the cross and subsequent resurrection conquered death. What “perish” is there for man that God couldn’t handle or hasn’t already?
If you can’t accept that they won’t, I pray that your faith will remain strong and that with time you will understand that they can’t. Romans 8:35-39.
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TYCHICUS – The Luke 17 passage refers to people being taken in judgment
No – taken in the rapture where the eagles are gathered (the clouds) on the day of the Second Coming – the ones who are left are left in judgment
TYCHICUS – no Biblical passage on the tribulation mentions or refers to the Church
So the elect are not part of the Church? The great multitude that are martyred are not part of the Church?
TYCHICUS – the rapture of the Church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the Second Coming of Christ after the tribulation
Mark 13:24-27 – AFTER the tribulation, the elect are gathered together from earth and heaven at the Second Coming
I wish I had more time right now to give longer answers.
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SBG: Thanks for your response. I’ll have to get back to you tomorrow.
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Matt. 25:46: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
“Eternal” here describes both the “punishment” of the wicked and the “life” of the righteous. If the one is endless, then so is the other.
John 5:24: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
The Gospel saves believers from eternal punishment. That’s why it’s so important.
Heb. 9:27: “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”
There is no second chance after death.
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The Old Testament has a parallel passage to Mark 13: 24-27. It’s Isaiah 11:11,12:
11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.
12 He will raise a signal for the nations
and will assemble the banished of Israel,
and gather the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth.
IMHO, the gathering of the elect is referring to a gathering of the Jews to Palestine. By that time all living Jews will be saved (Romans 11). “Elect” did not refer to the church or to Gentile believers until after the Church Age began on the day of Pentecost.
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In Luke 17 and the parallel passage in Matt. 24, Noah’s flood is given as an analogy as to what will happen at the Glorious Appearing. If you think about that for a minute, who was taken and who was left in Noah’s flood? Answer: The wicked were taken and the righteous left. It’ll be same at the Appearing: the wicked will be taken away to judgment, while the righteous will be left to reign with Christ. The analogy of the master of the house and the thief strengthens the case that this is a taking away to judgment. The thief is Christ. The master does not want his house to be broken up by the thief, which indicates that the Thief is not taking believers in the Rapture; He’s taking unbelievers to judgment. If the master prepares his household and is ready, his house will not be broken into. In similar fashion, if people during the Tribulation are ready (i.e. if they’re believers), they will not be taken away to punishment.
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SBG: It looks like Matt has already “beaten me to the punch.” You seem to be confusing the Rapture with Christ’s Second Coming (in your Lk 17 and Mk 13 references), which are clearly two separate events. In the Lk 17 passage Jesus refers to the “days of Noah” and the “days of Lot” as illustrations of people’s unpreparedness in the face of God’s coming judgment. In the same way, there will come a day when the Son of Man will suddenly and unexpectedly be revealed (I Thes 5:3), and just as happened in those OT events, evil people will be removed. It will be a day of terrible judgment (II Thes 1:7-9; 2:8-12).
When I refer to the Church, I am of course talking about the body of believers who will be taken in the Rapture before the events of the Tribulation. The elect are the “chosen ones”, Jews and Gentiles who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation.
Again, where do you see evidence of the Rapture in a reading of Rev 19:11-21?
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Noah and his family were taken out in the Ark so those who were left would perish in the flood. Lot and his family were taken out of Sodom and Gomorrah so those who were left would be destroyed by fire. The righteous are taken in the rapture and the unrighteous are left to face Armageddon.
I referred to Rev 19:11-21 not as a rapture passage but as the time of the battle of Armageddon where the unrighteous are destroyed. This is what Jesus is referring to in Luke 17 – the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Although there is an allusion to the rapture – the voice of an angel and a gathering together in the air in Rev 19:17.
Do the dead rise at the rapture? But the first resurrection of the dead is mentioned in Rev 20:5. You would have 2 resurrections of the dead by then if the Rapture and Second Coming are two separate events.
So you answered my question – the elect are not part of the Church. Who were Paul and Peter referring to when they used the term “elect”?
Where do you find a passage with the timing of the rapture before the Tribulation? 1 Cor 15:52 says it occurs at the last trumpet and Matt 24:31 says a trumpet will sound after the Tribulation to gather the elect.
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Matty —”Matt. 25:46: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
“Eternal” here describes both the “punishment” of the wicked and the “life” of the righteous. If the one is endless, then so is the other.”
The word “eternal” here is a poorly chosen translation of the Greek word “Aion” which means “age”. An “Age” is a specific period of time of undetermined length. Look it up in Strong’s concordance and then any serious Bible study of the term.
Although an age is of undetermined length, it does end and study of the Bible will reveal that there have been several ages already. We are said to be in the “Age of Grace” which began with Christ’s ascension and will end when Christ returns.
In short there is nothing “eternal” or “forever” about this verse. It means until “the end of the age.”
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SBG: You’re looking to make me work! Let’s give it a shot…
The term “rejected by this generation” in Lk 17:25 points to the fact that Christ’s generation would examine His claims and reject them. With such an attitude, Israel (and the nations) would deny even the possibility of Christ’s return. Jesus emphasizes this warning of being surprised and unprepared at His coming by mentioning the “days of Noah” and the “days of Lot”. Notice that the text doesn’t even mention the idea (that you touched on) of protection of Noah and Lot and their families. Rather, it says:
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Unpreparedness (concentrating on the things of this life), followed by judgment. That’s the context, and it continues on in the rest of the chapter. The word ‘eagles’ in v 37 (and in Mt 24:28) seems to mean ‘vultures’, the idea being that just as vultures gather where the carcass is, so the judgments of God will descend upon corrupt mankind (nature’s way of removing putrefaction from the earth).
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Ok – does that mean we don’t really have eternal life, but only life for an as-yet-unspecified amount of time?
I guess I’m a little confused. Are you saying that no one goes to hell? No one is punished forever? No lake of fire? Everyone becomes a believer at some point? It’s never too late? Every knee shall bow, as the Bible says, but I believe that some will realize it too late. Satan and his demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God, too – but they aren’t entering heaven anytime soon.
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My last comment #58 was addressed to RonD – sorry!
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SBG @55 (cont.)
Concerning the “first resurrection” (Rev 20:5):
Obviously, this can’t be the first resurrection chronologically b/c Christ was the first to rise from the dead. Then immediately followed the resurrection “of many” (Mt 27:52-53). Then comes the Rapture. Then the resurrection of the two witnesses during the Tribulation (Rev 11:3,11). Then the resurrection of the martyred dead of the Tribulation (Rev 20:4-5). There is even the resurrection of OT saints (Is 26:19-21; Ez 37:12-14; Dan 12:2-3).
The ‘first’ in Rev 20:5 is in the sense of ‘before’. The first resurrection contrasts with the last resurrection (vv 12-13), which is followed by “the second death” (vv 6,14).
You don’t like more than one resurrection of the dead? Is God not capable of doing this?
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So you answered my question – the elect are not part of the Church. Who were Paul and Peter referring to when they used the term “elect”?
My opinion is this: When Jesus spoke of the elect in the Olivet Discourse, He was in a Jewish setting, still under the Old Covenant. That context indicates that He was speaking of Jews when He said “the elect.”
When the church was formed and separated from Judaism, “elect” as used in that context refers to all believers in Jesus Christ. That’s who Paul and Peter were referring to in their epistles.
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The word “eternal” here is a poorly chosen translation of the Greek word “Aion” which means “age”. An “Age” is a specific period of time of undetermined length. Look it up in Strong’s concordance and then any serious Bible study of the term.
I don’t know, RonD. Check out this. See the definitions-1. without beginning or end, 2. without beginning, and 3. without end.
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What the…
My post disappeared when I tried to post it. Arghh!
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Ok, trying again.
RonD, check out this:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=166&version=nas
See the definitions: 1. without beginning or end, 2. without beginning, and 3. without end.
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Ok, trying for the third time. No link this time
RonD, check out this:
http //bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=166&version=nas
See the definitions: 1. without beginning or end, 2. without beginning, and 3. without end.
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Good Governor! Ok, 4th attempt.
//bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=166&version=nas
Add “http:” to the beginning, obviously.
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SBG @55 (cont.)
The word ‘elect’ is of course used many ways in the NT, including in reference to believers in the Church. However, I was talking about the elect in the context of Mk 13:24-27 (the Tribulation and the Coming of the Son of Man), which is why I said that it refers to Jews and Gentiles who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation. That is of course a pre-trib view, and I guess you would say that the elect in this passage refers to the saints of all the ages.
Btw, in the post-trib view, why do you think the saints will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air, and then immediately return to the earth to participate in the Millenium?
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Sorry, #63 was in response to RonD.
Check out the definitions. 1. without beginning or end, 2. without beginning, and 3. without end.
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TYCHICUS (#57) – Notice that the text doesn’t even mention the idea of protection of Noah and Lot and their families.
It says Noah entered the ark and Lot went out of Sodom.
The word eagles seems to mean vultures to fit your interpretation of the passage. The word eagles seems to mean eagles and fits my interpretation. Where are they taken? Where the eagles are gathered – in the air. The Greek word is used to translate the Hebrew word for eagle in the Septuagint. There is another Greek word for vulture that Jesus could have used to be clear if that is what He meant to say.
TYCHICUS (#60) – You don’t like more than one resurrection of the dead? Is God not capable of doing this?
There are 2 general resurrections – one of the righteous and one of the unrighteous – in Rev 20. The resurrection of Jesus and the two witnesses are specific individuals for unique purposes. The resurrection of the many in Matt 27 doesn’t say the went up to heaven after they rose. They could have been resuscitations like Lazarus. The resurrection of the OT saints is prophecy of the future resurrection in Rev 20.
TYCHICUS (#64) – why do you think the saints will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air, and then immediately return to the earth to participate in the Millenium
See the second part of my post #29
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TL — “I guess I’m a little confused.”
Matty, this is for you as well.
It is confusing and the random translation of the Greek word “Aion” doesn’t help. Please forgive the KJV quoted below—it’s the text used by the author I’m using for this explanation.
Portions excerpted from: The Outcome of Infinite Grace by Dr. Loyal F. Hurley.
The Hebrew word “olam”: and the Greek word “aion” both mean age or eon. Evidence of this may be found in any analytical concordance. The Hebrew “olam”comes from a root meaning “hidden”. The word therefore means not only a period of time, but a period of unknown or hidden length. It was often used to speak of a man’s lifetime because it is of an unknown period of time. To show how confusing it is in the King James Version—often copied, repeated or used as the basis for other translations—let’s look at the word “aion”. In the Greek text the noun form is used 128 times and the adjective form “aionios” is used 71 times. In the King James “aion”is correctly translated “age” only twice. Thirty eight times it’s translated “world”. In the Scofield Bible we find 35 marginal corrections for the noun and three for the adjective leaving 160 passages where the translation is misleading and no corrections are made. Ephesians 3:21 correctly translated should read: “to the age of the ages”.
It’s interesting that we have no difficulty understanding “King of kings” or “Lord of lords”. Everybody knows that they mean the greatest King of all kings, and the highest Lord of all lords. It ought be equally clear that “the age of ages” means the greatest Age of all the ages, the great consummation of the ages when God brings to completion what He has been busily engaged in during all other ages or unknown periods of time in which specific things have and will happen, all according to God’s plan determined before the ages began.
* God was before the ages. “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory” (1 Cor. 2:7) The accurate translation is “foreordained before the ages”.
* “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ before the world began” (2 Tim 1:9) The accurate translation “before eonian times”.
* God made the eons or ages through Christ. “God, Who at sundry times and divers manners [many times and various ways] spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us in His son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds” (Heb. 1:1-2) “Worlds”, accurately translated, should be “ages”.
* “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God” (Heb. 11:3) It should read: “the ages were framed [planned] by the Word of God”.
* Christ reigns for the eons. “And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end” (Lk 1:33). That should read: “He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons”, because the time will come when Christ will no longer reign over this kingdom.” We know this because “Then cometh the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father” (1 Cor. 15:24) But [And] the kingdom will continue under the Father’s rule, and it will have no end [one place where the concept of eternity, or forever, actually fits].
Matty: I’m sorry Dr. Hurley didn’t use more “eternity” or “eternal” verses for examples, but if you read verses with those words in Greek (an Interlinear Greek translation which will put the Greek as another line of text between the English translation) you’ll find the words in question. BlueLetterBible.org will show the Strong’s numbers and Greek as well.
There are so many Biblical statements that become much more clear when one grasps the truth of the ages and how they are spoken of in the Bible. Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death (Rom. 2:1-16; Rom. 5:12; Heb. 6:2; Rev. 20:11-15). At the end of the eons, after Christ has returned and reigned and has put down all rule, all authority and all power, death will be destroyed at which point all will have been justified so that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:24-28 ). Only as one sees the Plan of the Ages does he see the beauty of God’s Program for the redemption of the race—the whole race.
I hope this helps and I encourage you to look into it further. It will take some study probably with resources you don’t currently have, but are available. The bulk of what I’ve said came from an old pamphlet: The Outcome of Infinite Grace by Dr. Loyal F. Hurley. Dr. Hurley presents a reasonably concise explanation of the entire study. I don’t know if it is still available as I found it in my Father-in-Laws library. I pray that it is.
Remember:
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” Matthew 7:13-14
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Matty — “3. without end.”
In some places, the word “eternal” is correctly translated, but not all. We will have life eternal with immortal bodies and with God following 1 Corinthians 15:28 when God is All in All. But, there are ages unknown that must happen according to God’s plan between now and then. (Believers will have those bodies before that when we are “changed” by Christ at his return.)
One reason I’m not very interested in the tribulation discussion also occurring in this thread is that God has worked it all out as He intends and I’m just to be an observer. Whether I understand how it all plays out in advance isn’t important to me or God would have plainly revealed it in His Word. Of course the possibility exists that God has done this and I’m not smart enough to figure it out as perhaps others here correctly have done, but I still believe it isn’t necessary for me to know the timing. All I need do is believe.
Another Bible translation you might be interested in is the Concordant Literal New Testament. It straightens out this word problem.
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SBG: So is the emphasis in the context on Noah entering the ark and Lot going out of Sodom, or is it on unpreparedness and judgment?
The dictionary I have has AETOS for eagle (also a vulture), and it says that in Mt 24:28 and Lk 17:37 the vultures are probably intended.
It doesn’t seem to me that the # of resurrections is a very crucial issue. More telling: The events of I Thes 4:16-17 and I Cor 15 are clearly different from the events of Rev 19:11-21.
Re. the trumpets: The trumpet in I Cor 15:52 relates to the Church, whereas the trumpets in Revelation have to do with judgments during the Tribulation. Mt 24:31 includes the word ‘elect’ which we’ve already talked about.
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Dr. Hurley’s work is available:
http://www.freedominmessiah.com/outcome_of_grace.shtml
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