Typically though, things go much better in the doctor’s office when the doctor tells you whats wrong before he tells you how to fix it.

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No need to sigh Steve. The Lord promises:

”You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all your heart.” (Jer 29:13)

If you are not yet a Christian, He can bring you into the fold. If you are a Christian, He has the power to remove all your doubts and strengthen your faith.

I pray that He will do that for you.

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Sigh.

As simply as I can put it: You didn’t hear those witnesses say anything. You have second-hand accounts (at best) reporting that they said those things. You have alleged witness testimony about other alleged witness testimony and no way to independently verify any of it. You can’t put any of those “witnesses” on a witness stand under oath and ask them questions.

Seriously, why don’t you get this? It isn’t complicated.

On the other hand, I am saying that I believe what the writers of the Bible say about the words they have written. That is no different than believing Robert Louis Stevenson when he says, “I wrote ”Treasure Island.” There is no circular reasoning involved at all.

There is when your proof that the Bible is true is that the Bible says it is true.

Your RLS example doesn’t fit. Nobody debates that RLS wrote Treasure Island, and nobody debates that various people wrote the books of the Bible.

But if people were arguing that Treasure Island was a work of non-fiction, and their evidence for it was that on page 112, Long John Silver says it’s true, you’d have a circle.

For me, the strength of proof lies in a number of things, including the credibility of the witnesses, historical accuracy, fulfilled prophecies, internal consistency, and the amazing wisdom contained therein. The Bible has no peer in its accurate assessment of human nature and human relations. I won’t go into a detailed exposition on each of those points for the sake of space and time. Suffice it to say that millions of people over the centuries have reached the same conclusion: the compilation of such a book by human hands alone was and is, impossible. The only possible author is God Himself, just as the writers of the Bible claim.

Millions of people over the centuries have also reached just the opposite conclusion. And many of them are equally impressed by other alleged words of God which they insist would have been impossible for mere humans to have written. The argument from “gosh, wow,” is only compelling to people already persuaded.

Most of your claims of supremacy are exaggerated. In fact many Bible stories are unsupported or even challenged by archaeology. The books are riddled with internal contradictions that apologists have to go to great lengths to try to explain away. Most of the claims of “fulfilled prophecy” that I’ve seen don’t stand up under examination. And while it is true that the Bible stories show a good understanding of human nature, it’s hardly unique even among ancient texts in that regard. The writers are telling honest stories about people, of course they reveal important things about human nature.

In regard to the second point on religious conflict, you reason like the liberal politicians of today who hold us responsible for Muslim violence.

No one does that, least of all me.

According to your reasoning, I am supposed to say to the Muslim, “Gee, I’m not really sure about my faith. The Bible is just an ordinary book and my faith is only a matter of opinion. You and your “Holy” Koran might be right after all.”

Again you distort what I said. According to my reasoning, you should say to the Muslim, “I believe that what I believe is true and is the way to God. But I understand you believe the same thing about your faith, and I can respect that we have a difference of opinion.”

Because if you don’t respect the difference of opinion and he doesn’t respect it either, what room is left for peaceful dialog?

That would amount to nothing less than a denial of my faith and a denial of my Lord based on pure cowardice. I will not do that, nor should any genuine Christian.

OK. But then stop complaining about religious conflict or trying to blame it on those of us who don’t think conservative Christianity is the one and only true path to God. Everyone who insists that only they and those who agree with them have the real truth are the direct cause of religious conflict.

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You are mistaken in your evaluation of my logic. Circular reasoning is far different than plainly believing what a witness says.

A good example of true circular reasoning is found in the evolutionary practice of dating rocks by their fossil content and vice versa. The fossils are said to be a certain age because of the age of the rock. Yet, the age of the rock was established by the supposed age of the fossils in the first place. That is true circular reasoning, and it is indeed absurd.

On the other hand, I am saying that I believe what the writers of the Bible say about the words they have written. That is no different than believing Robert Louis Stevenson when he says, “I wrote ”Treasure Island.” There is no circular reasoning involved at all. Neither is there circular reasoning involved in believing the Biblical claims as to its authorship. Your assertion is bogus.

For me, the strength of proof lies in a number of things, including the credibility of the witnesses, historical accuracy, fulfilled prophecies, internal consistency, and the amazing wisdom contained therein. The Bible has no peer in its accurate assessment of human nature and human relations. I won’t go into a detailed exposition on each of those points for the sake of space and time. Suffice it to say that millions of people over the centuries have reached the same conclusion: the compilation of such a book by human hands alone was and is, impossible. The only possible author is God Himself, just as the writers of the Bible claim.

In regard to the second point on religious conflict, you reason like the liberal politicians of today who hold us responsible for Muslim violence. The Muslim is like the robber/murderer who blames his victim and says it was the victim’s fault for resisting his criminal advances.

According to your reasoning, I am supposed to say to the Muslim, “Gee, I’m not really sure about my faith. The Bible is just an ordinary book and my faith is only a matter of opinion. You and your “Holy” Koran might be right after all.”

Even though I as a Christian pose no threat to him, I’m supposed to say this to appease his sensibilities so that he won’t become angry and do something violent. In effect, you want me to lie about the assurance of my faith so as not to offend a bunch of petty tyrants with a swords.

That would amount to nothing less than a denial of my faith and a denial of my Lord based on pure cowardice. I will not do that, nor should any genuine Christian.

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Indeed, it’s not the belief, it’s the fundamentalism that’s the problem.

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I made no such accusation. You completely mistook what I said.

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However, the Old Testament prophets, Christ Himself, the disciples of Christ, and Paul all testify repeatedly that the Scriptures are God’s word. That is NOT an assumption. To believe that is simply to believe what these witnesses say.

And there is the circle.

Where do these witness say it?

In the Bible!

You are arguing essentially the Bible is true because stories recorded IN the Bible include accounts of people saying the Bible (or parts of it) are true.

Do you not see how absurd that logic is?

As to your second point, I did not say that Christians are as likely to be violent as Muslims. What I said was that the dogged insistence that one’s own view is the only possibly correct one is what causes religious conflict.

When two people each believe they have the one and only truth about God, and their beliefs are opposed to each other, and they cannot find the humility to accept that what they have are beliefs rather than certain knowledge, that’s the recipe for conflict.

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Two points:

First, you say that there is no demonstration that the Bible is God’s “absolute word.” You call my belief in that a mere assumption.

However, the Old Testament prophets, Christ Himself, the disciples of Christ, and Paul all testify repeatedly that the Scriptures are God’s word. That is NOT an assumption. To believe that is simply to believe what these witnesses say. Are they reliable witnesses? I am convinced that they are. If you trust in Christ for your salvation as you claim, it makes no sense to doubt Him on this point.

Second, you claim that a Christian’s assurance about his faith contributes to world and religious conflict. You put the Christian faith in the same category of the Muslim who vows to destroy those who do not accept his religion.

Your claim is absurd. The Christian witness for his faith is guided by this principle:

”Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience.” (1Pt 3:15)

We do not cut heads off if people do not believe. That approach is for the Muslims. In this life, the Christian enthusiastically and zealously seeks to preach the gospel as commanded by Christ in the Great Commission (Mt 28:19,20). But, the ultimate consequences for unbelief are rendered by God alone in the afterlife. While we draw attention to the fact of God’s ultimate judgment in our witness, that is in no way comparable to the physical threats and acts of death and destruction perpetrated by Muslim murderers in this life.

You should know that and I am astounded and disappointed that you would make such a false accusation.

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Do you ever get dizzy from spinning in circles?

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”The existence of an authority who knows the right answer does not logically require that the authority provide the answer in a book.

You are right, there is no logical requirement that the authority, God, provide us the right answer in a book. However, throughout the book He has graciously and repeatedly told us, that this is the case.
 He also sent us His Son, Jesus Christ, to live among us so that we might believe. He even did many astounding miracles so that we might believe.

When speaking to Philip He said,

Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?…Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.” (Jhn 14:9,11)

John goes on to say:

”Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (Jhn 20:30,31)

God has gone to extreme measures to provide a doubting mankind with all the evidence they need concerning Him, including the remarkable book, the Holy Bible. It is an unnecessary tragedy for people, but especially for Christians, to doubt its message and to spread that doubt among others.

”So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. For in just a very little while, ‘He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.” (Heb 10:35-39)

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