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	<title>Comments on: Legalism &#8212; not!</title>
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-317356</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 02:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good points Peter.  Though I think it would be the Puritanical Christians who the &#039;L&#039; word refers to, wouldn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points Peter.  Though I think it would be the Puritanical Christians who the &#8216;L&#8217; word refers to, wouldn&#8217;t it?
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		<title>By: Peter Leavitt</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-317189</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Leavitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Xion, Andree above threads the Christian needle on the subject of legalism. She is aware of the Satanic snare that causes Puritanical  Christians to quickly plaster the L word on the heads of those who &lt;i&gt;Give a person good advice, tell a friend what helps you in your walk with God, and somebody somewhere will call it &#8220;legalism.&#8221;&lt;/i&gt;

There is no necessary contradiction between being aware of the specifics of God&#039;s law, however much seen through a glass darkly, and understanding the truth of sola gratia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xion, Andree above threads the Christian needle on the subject of legalism. She is aware of the Satanic snare that causes Puritanical  Christians to quickly plaster the L word on the heads of those who <i>Give a person good advice, tell a friend what helps you in your walk with God, and somebody somewhere will call it &#8220;legalism.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>There is no necessary contradiction between being aware of the specifics of God&#8217;s law, however much seen through a glass darkly, and understanding the truth of sola gratia.
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-317173</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>So to answer Andree&#039;s question, 

Shouting from the rooftops that you &quot;must read the Bible a lot, and you must pray constantly throughout the day if you want to enjoy fuller intimacy with Christ&quot; is not necessarily legalistic.  We are to provoke one another to good works.

The spirit of that command is to reach fuller intimacy with Christ.  But the letter of that law, i.e. &quot;YOU MUST&quot; will not necessarily get you there.

Legalism is keeping the &quot;letter of the law&quot;, but completely missing the &quot;spirit of the law&quot;, i.e. fuller intimacy with Christ.  Mary got it.  Martha did not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So to answer Andree&#8217;s question, </p>
<p>Shouting from the rooftops that you &#8220;must read the Bible a lot, and you must pray constantly throughout the day if you want to enjoy fuller intimacy with Christ&#8221; is not necessarily legalistic.  We are to provoke one another to good works.</p>
<p>The spirit of that command is to reach fuller intimacy with Christ.  But the letter of that law, i.e. &#8220;YOU MUST&#8221; will not necessarily get you there.</p>
<p>Legalism is keeping the &#8220;letter of the law&#8221;, but completely missing the &#8220;spirit of the law&#8221;, i.e. fuller intimacy with Christ.  Mary got it.  Martha did not.
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-317172</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I like Joel&#039;s analogy in #1.  

Another analogy is given in Gal 5:9, &quot;a little leaven leavens the whole lump&quot;.  It is clear in this passage, that the leaven is legalism - thinking they can earn their way into heaven by keeping the law (i.e. circumcision in this case).  They have fallen from Grace (Gal 5:4).  It only takes a little to ruin a church.

The entire book of Galatians is a treatise against legalism.  In Gal 1:6 Paul chastises them for being removed from &quot;the grace of Christ&quot; unto &quot;another gospel&quot;, which is accursed.  That is the accursed gospel of works.

So when I see a Christian sin patrol marching on the capital to fight for legislation against those sinners over there, I wonder if we have forgotten that we too are sinners of an even worse variety.  The sinners aren&#039;t &lt;i&gt;over there&lt;/i&gt;.  The sinners are &lt;i&gt;right here&lt;/i&gt;!  Christ loved sinners.  Do we?

Homosexuality is sin.  But self-righteousness is even worse.  Christ only yelled about the latter.  We march around pointing out the sliver in someone else&#039;s eye and overlook the log in our own.  I&#039;m not minimizing any sin, but when will me march against our own?  

The point is that the gospel is not about us and what we do or even what sinners have done.  The point is what Christ has done.  He is the only answer for sin.  Preach his righteousness, not your own.

Such talk makes legalists very mad!  Paul railed against legalism, but when will any modern preacher do so?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Joel&#8217;s analogy in #1.  </p>
<p>Another analogy is given in Gal 5:9, &#8220;a little leaven leavens the whole lump&#8221;.  It is clear in this passage, that the leaven is legalism &#8211; thinking they can earn their way into heaven by keeping the law (i.e. circumcision in this case).  They have fallen from Grace (Gal 5:4).  It only takes a little to ruin a church.</p>
<p>The entire book of Galatians is a treatise against legalism.  In Gal 1:6 Paul chastises them for being removed from &#8220;the grace of Christ&#8221; unto &#8220;another gospel&#8221;, which is accursed.  That is the accursed gospel of works.</p>
<p>So when I see a Christian sin patrol marching on the capital to fight for legislation against those sinners over there, I wonder if we have forgotten that we too are sinners of an even worse variety.  The sinners aren&#8217;t <i>over there</i>.  The sinners are <i>right here</i>!  Christ loved sinners.  Do we?</p>
<p>Homosexuality is sin.  But self-righteousness is even worse.  Christ only yelled about the latter.  We march around pointing out the sliver in someone else&#8217;s eye and overlook the log in our own.  I&#8217;m not minimizing any sin, but when will me march against our own?  </p>
<p>The point is that the gospel is not about us and what we do or even what sinners have done.  The point is what Christ has done.  He is the only answer for sin.  Preach his righteousness, not your own.</p>
<p>Such talk makes legalists very mad!  Paul railed against legalism, but when will any modern preacher do so?
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-317166</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Legalism operates on the merit system, trying to work your way up the ladder to earn more of God&#039;s favor.  Grace realizes that God&#039;s favor is granted without works by His Son.

Legalism is SELF-righteousness, whereas Grace is Christ&#039;s righteousness applied to the undeserving.  Legalism is self-centric.  Grace is Christ-centric, all glory and honor are his.  

Legalists read their Bibles more than you.  The Pharisees memorized the entire law.  Legalists give more, pray more, work harder.  You&#039;ll find them in the most prominent positions in churches.  No one is holier than they.

Legalists know where everyone stands on the holiness scale.  They are the sin patrol, leading the charge against unrighteousness.  They place sinners in a different class than themselves, looking down on them, scorning them, while overlooking their own sinfulness.

But those who are saved &lt;i&gt;without works&lt;/i&gt; are Christ&#039;s workmanship (Gal 2:8-10).  People who understand Grace also work hard, but out of gratitude (i.e. gratia).  They worship and give and read their Bibles out of love.  They never regard themselves as better than anyone, not even the worst sinner on the planet.  The ground is level at the cross.  They try to be like Jesus, not to earn anything, but because they love him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Legalism operates on the merit system, trying to work your way up the ladder to earn more of God&#8217;s favor.  Grace realizes that God&#8217;s favor is granted without works by His Son.</p>
<p>Legalism is SELF-righteousness, whereas Grace is Christ&#8217;s righteousness applied to the undeserving.  Legalism is self-centric.  Grace is Christ-centric, all glory and honor are his.  </p>
<p>Legalists read their Bibles more than you.  The Pharisees memorized the entire law.  Legalists give more, pray more, work harder.  You&#8217;ll find them in the most prominent positions in churches.  No one is holier than they.</p>
<p>Legalists know where everyone stands on the holiness scale.  They are the sin patrol, leading the charge against unrighteousness.  They place sinners in a different class than themselves, looking down on them, scorning them, while overlooking their own sinfulness.</p>
<p>But those who are saved <i>without works</i> are Christ&#8217;s workmanship (Gal 2:8-10).  People who understand Grace also work hard, but out of gratitude (i.e. gratia).  They worship and give and read their Bibles out of love.  They never regard themselves as better than anyone, not even the worst sinner on the planet.  The ground is level at the cross.  They try to be like Jesus, not to earn anything, but because they love him.
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		<title>By: bough10</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-317163</link>
		<dc:creator>bough10</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;But what can I do when I want to shout from the rooftops that you must read the Bible a lot, and you must pray constantly throughout the day if you want to enjoy fuller intimacy with Christ?&quot;

This is not legalism (in the article&#039;s context) if done not under compulsion, but from personal desire. Initimacy with Christ through the means of the Word and prayer is that thing which a believer does instinctively - by (a born again) nature and is the principal source of pleasure the believer experiences. The fact that the believer experiences reluctance towards these instinctive desires is a consequence of the workings of the flesh. It will not always be this way though!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But what can I do when I want to shout from the rooftops that you must read the Bible a lot, and you must pray constantly throughout the day if you want to enjoy fuller intimacy with Christ?&#8221;</p>
<p>This is not legalism (in the article&#8217;s context) if done not under compulsion, but from personal desire. Initimacy with Christ through the means of the Word and prayer is that thing which a believer does instinctively &#8211; by (a born again) nature and is the principal source of pleasure the believer experiences. The fact that the believer experiences reluctance towards these instinctive desires is a consequence of the workings of the flesh. It will not always be this way though!
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		<title>By: krm</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-317094</link>
		<dc:creator>krm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Legalism is the truth wthout the love. Liberalism is the love without the truth.  Both the love and the truth are needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Legalism is the truth wthout the love. Liberalism is the love without the truth.  Both the love and the truth are needed.
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		<title>By: llama</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-317037</link>
		<dc:creator>llama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&#039;But what can I do when I want to shout from the rooftops that you must read the Bible a lot, and you must pray constantly throughout the day if you want to enjoy fuller intimacy with Christ? It sounds, even to myself (because of my inbred sensitivity to the charge) like the &#8220;L&#8221; word.&#039;

I&#039;m not going to quibble much with reading the bible a lot, since it isn&#039;t specified how much that is.  I think we can all agree that enough is enough of it. 

I can even see where you would not require one to pray constantly when asleep at night, I don&#039;t think most people are that talented without some really big miracle help from God, but praying &#039;constantly&#039; during the day would be difficult for most folks who have to work for a living, drive cars, raise children, have to eat and use the bathroom, blow their noses and regular stuff like that.  Constant praying could make a bowel movement problematical even for the most pious among us if they are also stricken with a weak colon or possibly even unspecified cramping - but I am no doctor.

It would also seem easier to pray at night when not asleep, even if not constantly, for most folks are not as busy then since they are not at work, the kids are in bed, etc.

I think what you can do is not to shout about anything to anyone really.  Some PC&#039;er might sue you for abusing them with high decibels that could lead to first or even second hand hearing loss, and you certainly wouldn&#039;t want to shout out at some secular, who is probably a lawyer, about them having to read the bible a lot and praying constantly in the daytime.  You would definitely get prison time for that.

You might look extreme and extremely silly or even crazy too but, that is just me and I&#039;m not a psychiatrist either :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;But what can I do when I want to shout from the rooftops that you must read the Bible a lot, and you must pray constantly throughout the day if you want to enjoy fuller intimacy with Christ? It sounds, even to myself (because of my inbred sensitivity to the charge) like the &#8220;L&#8221; word.&#8217;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not going to quibble much with reading the bible a lot, since it isn&#8217;t specified how much that is.  I think we can all agree that enough is enough of it. </p>
<p>I can even see where you would not require one to pray constantly when asleep at night, I don&#8217;t think most people are that talented without some really big miracle help from God, but praying &#8216;constantly&#8217; during the day would be difficult for most folks who have to work for a living, drive cars, raise children, have to eat and use the bathroom, blow their noses and regular stuff like that.  Constant praying could make a bowel movement problematical even for the most pious among us if they are also stricken with a weak colon or possibly even unspecified cramping &#8211; but I am no doctor.</p>
<p>It would also seem easier to pray at night when not asleep, even if not constantly, for most folks are not as busy then since they are not at work, the kids are in bed, etc.</p>
<p>I think what you can do is not to shout about anything to anyone really.  Some PC&#8217;er might sue you for abusing them with high decibels that could lead to first or even second hand hearing loss, and you certainly wouldn&#8217;t want to shout out at some secular, who is probably a lawyer, about them having to read the bible a lot and praying constantly in the daytime.  You would definitely get prison time for that.</p>
<p>You might look extreme and extremely silly or even crazy too but, that is just me and I&#8217;m not a psychiatrist either <img src='http://online.worldmag.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />
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		<title>By: Peter Leavitt</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-317004</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Leavitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Doreen, one of Jesus&#039;s crucial statements was that he came not to abrogate but to fulfill the Law; He well understood that God&#039;s Law was real and eternal. The best reference on this is: 

&lt;i&gt;Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill &lt;/i&gt;(Matthew 5:17).

A serious problem with Protestantism is that it unrealistically assumes that we poor individuals simply through Grace can overcome the evil that in our honest moments we know to be in our hearts. There may be a few Protestant saints touched purely by Grace, though most of us, as Andree suggests, without some reasonable rules inexorably find excuses to follow the ways of the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doreen, one of Jesus&#8217;s crucial statements was that he came not to abrogate but to fulfill the Law; He well understood that God&#8217;s Law was real and eternal. The best reference on this is: </p>
<p><i>Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill </i>(Matthew 5:17).</p>
<p>A serious problem with Protestantism is that it unrealistically assumes that we poor individuals simply through Grace can overcome the evil that in our honest moments we know to be in our hearts. There may be a few Protestant saints touched purely by Grace, though most of us, as Andree suggests, without some reasonable rules inexorably find excuses to follow the ways of the world.
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		<title>By: Doreen</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/03/legalism-not/comment-page-1/#comment-316958</link>
		<dc:creator>Doreen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jesus said, &quot;If you love me, keep my commandments.&quot; If there was ever a Man who hated legalism, He was it. Once again, if we follow closely in His footsteps, we won&#039;t stray into the error of too much law, or too much grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesus said, &#8220;If you love me, keep my commandments.&#8221; If there was ever a Man who hated legalism, He was it. Once again, if we follow closely in His footsteps, we won&#8217;t stray into the error of too much law, or too much grace.
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