Comments on: Another side of Jesse Helms http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/ A forum for discussion of news that arises at the intersection of Christianity and culture. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:34:55 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Scroop Moth http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318950 Scroop Moth Fri, 11 Jul 2008 01:36:19 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318950 Claude Allen's mistake was being too "soft-spoken and mild mannered" not to express his feelings about the existential absurdity of his false position directly to his employers, Helms and Bush. His repeated larcenies at Target were not a mistake, they were a crime. It would be meaningless for me, an anonymous poster, to say I've not committed crimes. For all you know, I could be blogging from prison. But I'm not, and I haven't. As Samuel Johnson remarked about American rebels of an earlier generation, "How is it that we hear the loudest <i>yelps</i> for liberty among the drivers of negroes?" Without slavery, there would be no Republicans to threaten the South's way of life, and no peculiar "civilization" to defend against Yankees. Slavery had a low profile in the talk by both sides leading to war, but all knew that war would be a "death-grapple with the Southern slave oligarchy." See Battle Cry for Freedom, p. 311-12. As you know, this is a vast topic, and I've said my peace about it for the purposes of this thread. Claude Allen’s mistake was being too “soft-spoken and mild mannered” not to express his feelings about the existential absurdity of his false position directly to his employers, Helms and Bush. His repeated larcenies at Target were not a mistake, they were a crime. It would be meaningless for me, an anonymous poster, to say I’ve not committed crimes. For all you know, I could be blogging from prison. But I’m not, and I haven’t.

As Samuel Johnson remarked about American rebels of an earlier generation, “How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?” Without slavery, there would be no Republicans to threaten the South’s way of life, and no peculiar “civilization” to defend against Yankees. Slavery had a low profile in the talk by both sides leading to war, but all knew that war would be a “death-grapple with the Southern slave oligarchy.” See Battle Cry for Freedom, p. 311-12.

As you know, this is a vast topic, and I’ve said my peace about it for the purposes of this thread.

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]]> By: outkast http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318913 outkast Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:46:36 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318913 BTW, Claude Allen was (and is) a very soft-spoken and mild-mannered gentleman who unfortunately made some poor decisions at one point in his life. If you're throwing stones, I hope you've never made mistakes of your own. BTW, Claude Allen was (and is) a very soft-spoken and mild-mannered gentleman who unfortunately made some poor decisions at one point in his life.

If you’re throwing stones, I hope you’ve never made mistakes of your own.

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]]> By: outkast http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318912 outkast Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:45:04 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318912 I repeat, Scroop, what you call the "civil war" (when the North invaded the Southern state, which were merely trying to secede from the Union, as was allowed for in the Constitution), was not about slavery. Revisionist history (written by the North, the side that won the war) has taught generations of Americans that it was, but it was in reality about states' rights. Did you know that General Lee freed his slaves long before General Grant let his go? That Abraham didn't care for the negro (would have never dreamed of allowing them to vote, for example) and only offered the Emancipation Proclamation in an attempt to wreck more havoc on the South? I repeat, Scroop, what you call the “civil war” (when the North invaded the Southern state, which were merely trying to secede from the Union, as was allowed for in the Constitution), was not about slavery. Revisionist history (written by the North, the side that won the war) has taught generations of Americans that it was, but it was in reality about states’ rights.

Did you know that General Lee freed his slaves long before General Grant let his go? That Abraham didn’t care for the negro (would have never dreamed of allowing them to vote, for example) and only offered the Emancipation Proclamation in an attempt to wreck more havoc on the South?

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]]> By: Scroop Moth http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318894 Scroop Moth Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:35:16 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318894 Gentlemen don't ignore charges made by gentlemen. Broder has an enduring reputation as a professional and honorable observer of politicians. WaPo exposes damaging indictments like his to widespread inspection and review, and to history. Helms didn't challenge Broder's conclusions because he he didn't have a defense for his behavior, and because refusing to give a defense was the principle satisfaction he provided his disaffected, bitter supporters. The mentally ill Claude Allen was Helms' and afterwards George Bush's House Negro. Consider: The chief domestic policy advisor to the president and the top Black staff member in the White House had no power, no influence, no voice. Allen didn't make policy, he carried it out. John Podhoretz at The Corner pointed out Allen's "utter obscurity despite the seniority of his position." (3/11) Podhoretz said: "I wrote a book about the Bush White House. I know . . . I've read . . .I've been . . .and gone to . . .So let me say this about accused thief and former White House policy bigshot Claude Allen: WHO?" This hero of personal achievement was a paper pusher -- who took revenge by targeting Target with false receipts. Allen would have done more for himself by cursing Helms to his face. Your claim that the civil war was not about slavery is crazy -- for being gratuitous and futile, if for no other reasons. Gentlemen don’t ignore charges made by gentlemen. Broder has an enduring reputation as a professional and honorable observer of politicians. WaPo exposes damaging indictments like his to widespread inspection and review, and to history. Helms didn’t challenge Broder’s conclusions because he he didn’t have a defense for his behavior, and because refusing to give a defense was the principle satisfaction he provided his disaffected, bitter supporters.

The mentally ill Claude Allen was Helms’ and afterwards George Bush’s House Negro. Consider: The chief domestic policy advisor to the president and the top Black staff member in the White House had no power, no influence, no voice. Allen didn’t make policy, he carried it out.

John Podhoretz at The Corner pointed out Allen’s “utter obscurity despite the seniority of his position.” (3/11) Podhoretz said: “I wrote a book about the Bush White House. I know . . . I’ve read . . .I’ve been . . .and gone to . . .So let me say this about accused thief and former White House policy bigshot Claude Allen: WHO?”

This hero of personal achievement was a paper pusher — who took revenge by targeting Target with false receipts. Allen would have done more for himself by cursing Helms to his face.

Your claim that the civil war was not about slavery is crazy — for being gratuitous and futile, if for no other reasons.

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]]> By: outkast http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318844 outkast Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:36:14 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318844 The reason Senator Helms probably didn't "respond to the charges" is because they were undoubtably false charges, Scroop. Sometimes they best thing to do when false charges are made about us is to ignore the people making those charges. Many people today (thanks to the prevailing side of the War Between the States) believe that conflict was over slavery, when it fact it was over state's rights. The same type of misunderstanding comes when many outside of North Carolina judge Senator Helms, apart from context. When I was interning for the Senator back in the mid-80s, his press secretary was Claude Allen, an African-American man. It was always humorous to watch the Democrats down there complain about racism when the truth was Senator Helms was extremely accepting of people of all ethnic backgrounds. The reason Senator Helms probably didn’t “respond to the charges” is because they were undoubtably false charges, Scroop. Sometimes they best thing to do when false charges are made about us is to ignore the people making those charges.

Many people today (thanks to the prevailing side of the War Between the States) believe that conflict was over slavery, when it fact it was over state’s rights. The same type of misunderstanding comes when many outside of North Carolina judge Senator Helms, apart from context.

When I was interning for the Senator back in the mid-80s, his press secretary was Claude Allen, an African-American man. It was always humorous to watch the Democrats down there complain about racism when the truth was Senator Helms was extremely accepting of people of all ethnic backgrounds.

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]]> By: Scroop Moth http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318822 Scroop Moth Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:39:47 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318822 Outkast -- David Broder published a scathing indictment of Helms in the WaPo, flatly calling him a "white racist," when Helms retired from the senate. Broder claimed that Helms' offenses against America were malicious, unrepented, and a-typical of the modern South. As far as I know, Helms didn't respond these charges. Outkast — David Broder published a scathing indictment of Helms in the WaPo, flatly calling him a “white racist,” when Helms retired from the senate. Broder claimed that Helms’ offenses against America were malicious, unrepented, and a-typical of the modern South. As far as I know, Helms didn’t respond these charges.

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]]> By: Scroop Moth http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318820 Scroop Moth Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:31:42 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318820 Mickey, thanks. It's not possible for any of us to be consistent, we just take our lumps and explain in good faith. I have no problem with Worldmag's style sheet, but am sometimes surprised at what is or isn't on it. "Faggot" seems to be OK but not the 3-letter word. Also, the D-word, once used, now appears to be banned, except when quoting it to condemn its use. Mickey, thanks. It’s not possible for any of us to be consistent, we just take our lumps and explain in good faith. I have no problem with Worldmag’s style sheet, but am sometimes surprised at what is or isn’t on it. “Faggot” seems to be OK but not the 3-letter word. Also, the D-word, once used, now appears to be banned, except when quoting it to condemn its use.

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]]> By: Mickey McLean http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318803 Mickey McLean Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:03:55 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318803 Scroop: On that other thread, I was trying to clean up a volatile string of comments from over the holiday weekend and went a bit too far in my cleaning. In hindsight, I should've left some of the comments as they were. It's a tough call sometimes as to what's appropriate and what's not. We try to be consistent, but we aren't always. Scroop: On that other thread, I was trying to clean up a volatile string of comments from over the holiday weekend and went a bit too far in my cleaning. In hindsight, I should’ve left some of the comments as they were. It’s a tough call sometimes as to what’s appropriate and what’s not. We try to be consistent, but we aren’t always.

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]]> By: outkast http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318759 outkast Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:47:59 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318759 It must be easy to accuse Senator Helms of "blatant racism" without any supporting documentation, Scroop, showing context and intent. It must be easy to accuse Senator Helms of “blatant racism” without any supporting documentation, Scroop, showing context and intent.

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]]> By: Scroop Moth http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/comment-page-1/#comment-318735 Scroop Moth Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:57:26 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/07/09/another-side-of-jesse-helms/#comment-318735 MICKEY: <b>Helms may have been stubborn . . . but that doesn’t mean he never admitted to being wrong . . . </b> Saying you're "ashamed" that you neglected charitable work is not the same as admitting to "being wrong." (BTW, why didn't Dean quote "ashamed" in a complete sentence?) If Helms was apologizing for his racism and homophobia, that would have been news, and Dean would have put it at the top of the story. More importantly, to be credible, such an apology would have to come while Helms was still in public life -- and before he started to lose his memory about what he had to apologize for. Helms was infamous for not apologizing for his blatant racism, which made him unique among prominent Southern politicians. Mickey white-washes a sepulcher. Pretending to enforce language standards on a previous Helms thread, Mickey cleaned up a famous Helms quote, "D-d lesbian," by deleting the offensive word, reducing the quote to "lesbian." Yet Mickey himself spelled out the D-word in his thread about Rev. Pfleger's famous sermon, "Oh damn, where did you come from? I’m white. I’m entitled." (Sgt. Mickey, quoting Rev. Pfleger in “More problems from the pulpit for Obama”, May 30, 2008) Hypocrisy makes false worship so easy. MICKEY: Helms may have been stubborn . . . but that doesn’t mean he never admitted to being wrong . . .

Saying you’re “ashamed” that you neglected charitable work is not the same as admitting to “being wrong.” (BTW, why didn’t Dean quote “ashamed” in a complete sentence?)

If Helms was apologizing for his racism and homophobia, that would have been news, and Dean would have put it at the top of the story. More importantly, to be credible, such an apology would have to come while Helms was still in public life — and before he started to lose his memory about what he had to apologize for.

Helms was infamous for not apologizing for his blatant racism, which made him unique among prominent Southern politicians.

Mickey white-washes a sepulcher. Pretending to enforce language standards on a previous Helms thread, Mickey cleaned up a famous Helms quote, “D-d lesbian,” by deleting the offensive word, reducing the quote to “lesbian.” Yet Mickey himself spelled out the D-word in his thread about Rev. Pfleger’s famous sermon, “Oh damn, where did you come from? I’m white. I’m entitled.” (Sgt. Mickey, quoting Rev. Pfleger in “More problems from the pulpit for Obama”, May 30, 2008)

Hypocrisy makes false worship so easy.

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