Obama: “Make sure your child can speak Spanish”
At a campaign stop in Powder Springs, Ga., yesterday, Barack Obama discussed why our children should to learn to speak Spanish:
I don’t understand when people are going around worrying about we need to have English-only. They want to pass a law, we want just … we want English-only.
Now I agree that immigrants should learn English. I agree with that. But … understand this: Instead of worrying about whether immigrants can learn English—they’ll learn English—you need to make sure your child can speak Spanish. You should be thinking about how can your child become bilingual? We should have every child speaking more than one language
You know, it’s embarrassing … when Europeans come over here, they all speak English, they speak French, they speak German. And then we go over to Europe, and all we can say is “Merci beaucoup.” Right?
In response to Obama’s speech, Jim Geraghty over at the National Review’s The Campaign Spot points out:
Obama seems to be conflating demands for English-only curriculum to hasten the assimilation of English as a Second Language students with opposition to foreign language courses. I have never encountered anyone who demanded an “English-only” Spanish lesson.
Obama’s last paragraph is fine; it’s the second one that is full of a drastic misunderstanding of what motivates those English-only argument. Maybe in the circles Obama travels in, every immigrant has learned English, or is well along the way. But a walk down the street in many neighborhoods across the country reveal that quite a few immigrants not only haven’t learned it yet, but they live and work in separate, out-of-the-spotlight enclaves in which they never need to learn it, and will never need to learn it. It’s a formula for cultural Balkanization. (Notice this is not merely a phenomenon of Spanish-speaking immigrants.)
Ed Morrissey at Hot Air adds:
Obama’s argument here makes no sense. He’s complaining that Americans don’t speak the native language when we visit Europe, but that we don’t speak the immigrant language when people move to the United States. With that argument, shouldn’t we expect Europeans to speak English when we travel there?
I agree that everyone should learn a foreign language. … However, to argue that Americans should learn Spanish as a higher priority than insisting that immigrants learn English is nonsense, and Obama’s argument for it is a giant non-sequitur. It carries a strong whiff of America-bashing, too.




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back to top131 Comments to “Obama: “Make sure your child can speak Spanish””
Bilingual = Good
Obama = Bad
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Of course everyone should be bilingual as a minimum and it should start as early as possible. The latter it is started the harder it becomes to master (one says bitterly after fighting several years to master a notoriously hard language).
Which second language is a matter of choice, but both because of its simplicity and its present usefulness, Spanish is not a bad idea.
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Latin is my second language, as I learned it as my foreign language in high school. As a citizen of the United States speaking English as my first language, Latin a lot more useful to me than Spanish would ever be.
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Let me see if I understand this:
The people in the greatest country on earth should be required to learn the language spoken by countries that are abject failures.
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Nick: You have a knack for offending great numbers of people.
As a bilingual person (Spanish) I can tell you that in most major cities it is a definite plus to know the language.
It isn’t a capitulation to “counties that are abject failures,” but rather a fact of life in our growing globalization. In the US, Spanish is a great second language to know.
By the way, I have also studied koine Greek, which is about as useful as Latin (sorry Outkast) and I speak in tongues too!
As the old joke goes. What do you call a person who speaks 3 languages? Tri-lingual. What do you call a person who speaks one language? An American.
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I want to throw up every time Michelle and Barack say, Understand this!
I don’t need them to lecture me.
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Sorry, Metanoia, but as a full-time journalist I find my Latin comes in “useful” on an almost-daily basis!
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(and the Greek I learned during my Bible college years is very useful for interpreting Scripture as well)
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BO once again can’t comprehend the reason for Europeans speaking many languages. This coming from an individual who is supposedly is an ‘educated’ man who desires to be the President of the United States?
The whole of Europe would take up two thirds of the United States. We have a large area covered with 50 plus states, on the other hand Europe as an entire area is MUCH SMALLER, with many countries.
If Obama would use the intelligence which he purports to have, he could think this through and realize how ignorant his remark is. Most Europeans speak French, English, Italian, German and a few others for a REASON – their countries are so small they don’t have a choice but to learn all the neighboring languages –
I agree its a wonderful thing to speak other languages, however in California alone, we have many Asians of different countries – Large number of middle eastern countries are represented, the list goes on – last but not least we have those from across the southern border of California who come here, and never learn English, and if they do, their attempt is so poor its difficult from them to attain good jobs — many simply put forth LITTLE EFFORT -
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The information below should help ANYONE UNDERSTAND how small Europe actually is, and WHY the need to know many languages – Maybe we should e-mail this to BO’s Democratic office.
Europe and US Country Size Comparison Map – How Big is Europe Compared to the US?
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I completely agree that fluency in two languages is an excellent goal. However, the United States holds to English as the unofficial language. Immigrants should be putting forth as much effort as they can to learn it.
Please don’t be hard on those who are in the process. I have now studied French for 7 years and spent 9 months immersed in the language and have yet to attain total fluency. I understand their difficulties and give them bonus points for trying, because I’ve been there trying to communicate with that cashier who just won’t help.
We often have immigrant families or workers
come to the ice cream parlor where I work. I learned from them (for whom English is the second language) to be very patient with myself in communicating in another language and to tip well!
Certainly they should learn English. But I intend to help them as I can, and to take advantage of every contact with another language and culture.
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Theodore Roosevelt said, just over 100 years ago:
“Let us say to the immigrant not that we hope he will learn English, but that he has got to learn it. Let the immigrant who does not learn it go back. He has got to consider the interest of the United States or he should not stay here. He must be made to see that his opportunities in this country depend upon his knowing English and observing American standards. The employer cannot be permitted to regard him only as an industrial asset.”
Sounds like we didn’t pay attention. That last sentence also rings true.
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Other languages maybe Americans should learn:
Math
C++
Visual Basic
Python (hey, it’s open source!)
Chinese? (don’t know which dialect would be preferred)
“We should have every child speaking more than one language”
Is it a moral issue, a civil issue, or a matter of choice? “Should” implies moral. Barry speaking as a politician implies a civil requirement. Barry doesn’t seem to be so concerned about freedom here.
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Yes Outkast, I believe you have profited from both. But can you witness to my mother, landscaper, or waitress in my favorite restaurant?
I agree that in Europe people have learned several languages because of necessity. But it has become an increasing necessity in a lot of areas in the US to learn another language.
Many immigrants (legal and illegal) settle in communities where learning English is not the number one priority. It was true of the Italians, Poles, Germans etc. when they came to America. Their children master the language once they go to school.
Sensitivity to the transitional generation is a challenge that has been a part of the American experience for generations.
Caution, anecdotal evidence ahead!
I was surprised when late in life my mother began to speak to her grandchildren in almost flawless English without an accent. I asked her why she hardly ever spoke English to us when we were growing up. Her answer? I didn’t need to. You spoke Spanish.
She later told me about her fear of making a mistake in speaking to Anglos. Never estimate the power of fear.
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Que embarasado! Mistakes? Who makes mistakes?!
Sensitivity to the transitional generation
Sensivity to their insensitivity? How about tough love? Learn the language or you get to be a dishwasher!
Never estimate the power of fear.
Actually, it’s probably good to estimate it every now and again.
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Victoria, that map is of WESTERN Europe – there is a lot more of Europe: the Balkans, Poland, European Russia, etc. Not to mention Iceland. And the EU includes the French overseas territories also, and Cyprus.
That said, you would have to add Alaska & Hawaii to the US.
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Ok Wiglaf. so you know the difference between being pregnant and being embarrassed.
Many of those in the transitional generation are dishwashers and happy to do so. Washing dishes and cutting lawns is a pretty good dose of tough love which is why so many of these immigrants push their children to learn English.
“Never estimate the power of fear.”s
There are usually exceptions to proverbial sayings. But the general principle holds for most situation.
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Forget French. Learn Chinese, Arabic, Hindi, or Spanish. Unless you are doing historical research.
When Gibbon decided to publish Decline and Fall in English back in 1776 the world shifted from the literal lingua franca. I have no problem with that, but the resulting lack of exposure and lack of need is still no excuse for (my) linguistic ignorance.
Another thing – we don’t even know English very well. (Did I say that right?)
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I can remember as a child that on Wednesday nights the Vesper service was held in German at our Church. The reason was that first generation, usually older, immigrants who made up sizable portion of the congregation did not learn English all that well. By the time i Was 10, these services were no longer held because there no more German first language speakers left – except the exceptional organist and his wife. But all of their kids spoke perfect English as second generation and most spoke German. By the third generation there were no German speakers that I know of.
This is the way it works. Illegal aliens and other first generation legal immigrants from Hispanic countries do not speak English well but their kids do – and they speak Spanish too. But I have few Hispanic friends who are 3rd Generation who speak Spanish but more do than spoke German because of the barrios and where they live. Germans didn’t live in Germantown by the third generation.
It’s not wrong because many Hispanics live in American barrios where they speak Spanish – usually in big cities. Many are still worried about being deported at any minute. I’m sure you have heard of Chinatowns where they still speak 100 dialects of Chinese. Most major US cities still have Check, Polish, Italian, Greek, now Russian and many other areas where those languages are common along with English.
The only reason, that makes sense, why Americans feel differently about Hispanics and are hostile to Spanish and think these Spanish only speaking people are somehow bad for ASmerica, is because they know for a fact that the majority of them are illegal and that makes them a criminal and it doesn’t make a difference to an American what language you speak if you are a criminal.
America will always be an English speaking country because you will always have to speak it to get along and ahead here. This has and will always be so. This is melting pot like no other and no one can learn 120 different languages.
I made sure my daughter learned and spoke Spanish in High School and will continue it in college. She lives in AZ where 30% the population are illegal aliens who do not speak English well. The foreign country she will visit and vacation in the most will be, without question at this time, be Mexico. If she wants a leg up on other white managers in AZ where she will likely work, she better be fluent in Spanish. Even most of the food she eats is Mexican for heaven’s sake. Hispanics are easily the largest majority in America to boot and learning Spanish as a second language is smart. She is just glad her Hebrew lessons are finito.
I think that is bad Italian. I don’t like Mafia members and want them rounded up and put in jail because they are criminals, not becsue they are Italians and I hate Italians. Why should I feel different about Hispanics?
The only thing that separates us Americans is our common language – English
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metanoia,
You missed it. You typed “estimate” instead of “underestimate.” Maybe you should work on your English instead of keeping up with your Spanish.
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#15 Wiglaf,
Never estimate the power of fear.
Actually, it’s probably good to estimate it every now and again.
Actually, since fear, pride and ego cause failure in all things, it is best to know them way better than any first language.
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lol
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One problem with forcing everyone to learn multiple languages is the “jack of all trades, master of nothing” problem. Too many Americans, including myself, are not masters of English. Our politicians fail miserably. When I read the writing of folks, politicians included, from over 150-200 years back, I tend to feel ashamed of my lack of mastery over the English language.
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I lived in Germany as a child and have always liked languages. I learned German (of course) and Hebrew and have dabbled in lots of other languages for fun.
If Obama becomes president we will all soon be learning Arabic, since Islam will take over the world. Salam alechem!
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Seriously, could someone tell me why Hispanic people are so proud of their “culture”?
What part of their culture have you adopted?
Probably the only thing we have adopted from them are their fast food preferences like tacos, salsa, burritos, etc. Recipes you could pick up off the Internet.
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metanoia
It is NOT a NECESSITY nor is it our obligation to indulge those who are just to lazy to learn English, ASAP.
Learning some of these languages, isn’t a good use of our time in California – there are many Asian language speaking people, middle eastern, and Mexican. Most of us are just to busy with careers and family to start taking two or more languages to pacify those who are just to lazy to learn English. There are many other languages I would rather learn than Spanish, etc.
If people are so intent on moving here they can take the time and energy to learn the English language – it’s insulting to the USA when people come here, want/demand a free education, free medical, help etc, with everything they can think of, and then expect we who are citizens to learn their language, and then teach our children Spanish – that’s ridiculous. When illegal aliens and immigrants begin to show RESPECT for the USA there won’t be this great divide.
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If we all learn Spanish we will be able to press #2 on voice mail and read all the signs in stores.
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Xion,
YOU WRITE:.. “If Obama becomes president we will all soon be learning Arabic, since Islam will take over the world. Salam alechem!
Unfortunately, I don’t think you’re to far off on this one. I wonder if BO/MO have learned to speak the native language of Kenya?
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Nick: I have an uncle who is Mexican, and can assure you that there are plenty of fine cultural qualities South of the Border. Not just cuisine, mind you, but artistically the Spanish people have a wonderful legacy when it comes to music and artwork.
In fact, my uncle is a Mexican muralist who has been hired over the years to create artwork that has hung in White Houses, ambassador offices and restaurants around the world.
You really need to get out more, dude.
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How many languages have the Obama kids learned? Point: Does BO follow his own advice?
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SteveHu
Good point -
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To Outkast #29
You did not give a single example of the “fine cultural qualities” in Mexico.
I can assure you I do get out and I hear plenty of the Mexican “music” in stores and in passing cars.
Rap music seems deeply profound by comparison.
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There is more to speaking Spanish than most think. Which Spanish. When the TV Station I worked for started doing Spanish translations of our programs, the first person they hired to do it was Cuban. She quit and they hired someone from South American. He informed us that it was all wrong and had it redone. When he quit the Spanish speaking European had it all redone again. In the USA there is a standard accepted accent, Midwestern, that most media people are taught to use, but this is not the case with Spanish. The only thing we know for sure is you never use Mexican.
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So … Obama encourages Americans to learn more and to become better able to communicate.
The WoW usual suspects come roaring in to defend ignorance and xenophobia.
A typical day.
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BTW, my son watches “Dora the Explorer” and knows more Spanish than my and husband and me put together.
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Xenophobia
Definition
fear of foreigners: an intense fear or dislike of foreign people, their customs and culture, or foreign things.
When using the word xenophobia, one needs to understand the definition.
There is no fear in not WANTING to learn a particular language, it’s a choice here in the USA, not a command performance to further encourage those who are lazy to learn English – after all, ‘THEY’ have come to live here in the USA – If I desire to live in another country I would learn the language ASAP, it would only make sense.
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Victoria #28: I was addressing the fact that the majority of all immigration (legal and illegal) has come and will continue to come from Mexico, Central and South America.
There is, and will continue to be a huge need for biligual workers as this migration continues. Businesses have recognized the pragmatism of this issue and have made accommodations for it.
I don’t think it has a lot to do with “laziness” to learn, as much as it may be the predisposition of all of us to take the path of least resistance. That is why so many immigrants move to neighborhoods representing their ethnic group.
For those who want to educate, pastor, do business with, medically treat or politically represent these groups, it is indeed a “necessity” for them to know the language.
The term “U.S.” is being used with personified attributes. I’ll agree that there are Americans who are put out and put off by people who don’t speak English as a first language, but I wouldn’t characterize them that speak their native tongue as being lazy.
I don’t know that I agree that Poles, Hispanics, Italians, Greeks or Russians “expect” us to learn their language, but as first generationals can attest, it is a kind gesture whenever anyone else tries to communicate with them in their native tongue. It is often a sign of respect and willingness to “get into their world.” It is much appreciated.
I would even venture to say that if one were to raise his children in South Florida, Southern California, the other Southwest states and most major cities, he didn’t encourage them to learn Spanish, he would be doing a disservice to his children. Job opportunities abound for bilingual people.
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KBELLS,
That’s because Mexicans uses the “F” word frequently. Have you ever seen “El Norte”?
Cubans probably don’t have a word yet for “computer.” …wait…oh, yeah, the spanish and other latinos don’t have their own word for computer either. English is the language of technology no matter what the French would like. How’s that French version of Google going, btw? Anyone know?
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Of course, no matter what Obama said about learning a foreign language (or how he said it), he’s gonna be trashed for it.
Shoot- if Obama made a statement as simple as “I love my wife” he’d be trashed for it. And Vicky Dear would be here boldly pointing us to an article or website that would claim Obama makes love to farm animals.
Where would Worldmag be without nit-picking?
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Where would Worldmag be without sarcasm?
Obama makes love to farm animals??! ??
BTW, did anyone see that special on ABC last night about that guy (charlie?) who hangs out with bears in Alaska?
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Metanoia – 37
You have this backwards: “he would be doing a disservice to his children.” it’s not my children, it is those who come from Mexico who feel deprived because our children don’t speak their language. Strange how all the Asian people who live here, never EXPECT us to learn their language. We deal with many Vietnamese, they learn English tout de suite, no complaing, they just DO IT! The Asian community doesn’t expect everything given to them without working for it, they don’t whine about their language not being spoken in our schools, but the Mexicans sure do.
I live in Southern California – having said that, I have no intention of learning Spanish – One of my children desired to learn French, which I thought was a great idea, and still do.
The deservice of not learning Spanish is not to those of us who were born here, it would be just another ‘SERVICE’ for those who are LAZY and don’t learn to speak English, coming here illegally much of the time, and wanting nothing more than a free ride.
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My neighbors don’t know English. I throw Spanish their way on occasion. I honestly don’t care if I’m “messing up.” I suppose any communication is better than none even if I do say “que embarasado.” I often start with English to see if they entienden. No change yet.
There is one other international language they understand; soccer (aka fútbol).
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Victoria: Your response is pretty much what I expected. I’ll bow out. You don’t seem to like Spanish speaking people very much, and I are one.
Anyone else out there who may have something to say about my comments? I’d be curious to hear from some of you. It may help me to sharpen my writing skills if you are also interpreting my comments as Victoria seems to be interpreting them.
I don’t think I said anything that is unreasonable.
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What do you think the Hispanic people of the world would do if the situation was reversed?
Throngs of white people moving into their countries overwhelming their schools, hospitals, criminal justice system.
Demanding bilingualism, affirmative action, amnesty, government handouts etc.
P.S. Wiglaf #40, I did see that show and Charlie is unbelievably lucky to be alive.
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Metanoia, #37
“…as first generationals can attest, it is a kind gesture whenever anyone else tries to communicate with them in their native tongue. It is often a sign of respect and willingness to “get into their world.” It is much appreciated.”
My husband has found this to be true. He cultivates relationships with immigrants by asking them to teach him a little of their language. He says it’s amazing how their eyes light up and how animated they are that he reaches out like that! When he encounters them again, he practices on them, and they happily help him refine his skill.
He does this not to manipulate, but rather to demonstrate Christian compassion and kindness, and to build a relationship so he can share the greatest news of all with them–Jesus!
All that said, I think it is also a kindness to help immigrants learn our language. It’s better for them, esp. if they plan on staying here. Great outreach opportunity for churches.
Bilingual is a great goal, but knowing just English shouldn’t be a reason to distain someone as simple or backwards, either.
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Metanoia, #43,
Oh, don’t bow out! You addressed the points very graciously, with a fresh perspective. I appreciated your contribution!
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Wow. The open racism in #4, #25, and #32 just floors me.
I though such people only existed as cheesy movie villains.
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Metanoia – 43
You are not speaking the truth, I did not say I didn’t “like Spanish speaking people very much” and YOU KNOW IT – its just a sly way of slipping something between the lines which puts you or others in a ‘poor me, look what you’ve done/said’ mode, and no one is buying it where I live.
My husband and I have friends who are from Mexico, Central American and South American, so you can cool down. These people work hard, learnng the English language without complaining and expecting others to give them something they can either learn/earn for themselves.
If all the others coming from other countries can accept responsibility, not expecting special privilege why can’t those who are Mexican’s, why are they UNABLE to grasp the English language, among other things?
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Metanoia:
You have intelligent and well-articulated points. Victoria just has spleen and bluster. Ignore her.
Regardless of one’s attitudes about Hispanic immigrants, it is an incontrovertible fact that many are coming to America. Given that, learning Spanish has a direct economic benefit for Americans.
The point isn’t complicated. I know white people are the greatest people on earth and English is the language of angels and all those lazy immuhgrunts just want us to give them free stuff, but you can’t deny Metonia’s central point: the changing economic reality makes learning Spanish a wise move.
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JJF,
I fail to see the racism.
According to wikipedia, “Racism, by its simplest definition, is discrimination based on the racial groups to which people belong” but then later states, “According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination.”
So, if I say, “Wow. Those Moabites sacrifice their children to Molech. Nothing good can come from an evil culture like that!” That’s not racist. It’s recognizing that some cultures are better than others.
Now, if I say, “Wow. That person is of moabite ancestry. I don’t care if he says he’s a Christian. He must be an evil child murderer or want to murder children!” That is racist.
Recognize the difference? So, you see, I’m guessing that I don’t agree with United Nations definition. I don’t respect cultures that enslaves innocent people, mutilates women, forcibly redistributes wealth and land, breaks covenants, etc. I suppose I also don’t like cultures that play annoying tinny music really loud so the whole neighborhood can hear.
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Obama’s point is that knowing more than one language is a good thing. It’s hardly controversial.
Even our friends to the north (Canada) recognize the importance of bilingualism. In fact, I’d say it’s almost mandatory that the Prime Minister be bilingual.
I think the vast majority of Hispanic folk are quite anxious to learn English. They recognize the importance of learning it if they want to get ahead in America.
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Job opportunities abound for bilingual people
A point I constantly make to my teens. And Spanish is probably the easiest language to learn, it being almost completely phonetic.
By the way – Mexican culture is American culture for a lot of this country, that is the areas that were originally part of Mexico. I’m looking forward to exploring Old Town Albuquerque this summer.
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To Anlir
You cannot be serious. Bilingualism in Canada (French and English) has caused nothing but problems.
Quebec always wants to secede from the rest of the country.
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You’re right, Nick. The Canadians would be much better off if they only knew one language. In fact, it’s generally true that the less you know, the better!
Let’s hear it for ignorance!!
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outkast post 3,
I agree with you that latin is an excellent language. It is the foundation of all the Romance languages with heavy influence on English.
If it is not impertinent, how far did you progress in Latin? I must say my school only offerred two years and it was just beginning to get interesting when the program stopped.
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To JJF and Metanoia
What will if take to reach you (if it is possible)?
Why do you think the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia broke up and why there are so many problems in countries like Iraq and Brazil (just to name a few).
Throwing all those different ethnic, religious, racial groups together and then hoping for the best has not and will not work.
The hypocrisy of Mexico, to give one example is staggering. The strongly defend their southern border to prevent immigrants from entering.
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victoria post 9,
hmm, I believe you will find that there are more people in Europe than the U.S. and the European Union ecomony is bigger than the U.S.. Also the Euro is holding up much nicer than the U.S. dollar!
If size is all that matters, I suspect that Antarctica then must be very important!
Perhaps Australia?
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wiglaf post 13,
I love your list of languages, but suggest you left out FORTRAN! How about Pascal?
Actually the “should” here is, I suggest, an economic and social should.
The U.S. economy as a fraction of the world economy is shrinking. After WW II it was close to 50% of the world economy, now it is about 25% or so. So knowing another language is useful economically: I am riminded of the time Panasonic personnel visited our site and discovered that I knew enough Japanese so that they were unsure if they could talk safely among themselves in Japanese.
It is also increasingly improtant socially: the world is becoming increasingly interdependent and if you want to itneract with others, it is useful to know their language.
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victoria post 9,
come to think of it, it would seem that Canada must be the most important country in North America!
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metatonia post 43,
your posts have seemed reasonable to me. I certainly have found nothing of significance which I disagreed with.
victoria does have a way of arguing. It takes some getting used to, but once you understand victoria’s model, it gets easier to work with.
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Nick Peter post 53,
I seem to remember that a portion of the U.S. wanted to secede at one point. It sure seems like having one language managed the problem there!
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“The less you know, the better” is the official slogan of the Bush Administration. SteveG owes them a royalty payment now.
In terms of the world economy and the future, beng proficient in Chinese would be a big plus.
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jjf – 49
Such bigoted tripe. You make it up as you go along, thinking anyone would believe a list of racial innuendo, which is nothing but a litany of nonsense, not to mention a lie.
Economics does not demand that everyone in the USA learn Spanish, it’s not wise – Those who demand that we give them what they want, not to mention their lack of enthusiasm to learn English are ENABLING BEHAVIOR which serves no purpose but to encourage those who need to learn English from doing so.
BO and his friends can play the ‘ENABLING BEHAVIOR’ game across the lines, it won’t be effective, but instead will give yet ANOTHER EXCUSE for the ‘victim-hood’ behavior, ‘poor me’ -
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anlir post 62,
are you sure you are not discounting Hindi too early?
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Of course there’s nothing wrong with learning Spanish. There are some industries/areas in NJ that if you don’t know Spanish, you won’t succeed. The real estate/mortgage industry is one.
But the reason Obama is making this suggestion is that he is courting the Hispanic vote. He threw out the obligatory “Now I agree that immigrants should learn English,” and followed up with BUT. There’s nothing noble about what he is suggesting! It’s just politics!
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Arnbo,
How do you know that Metanoia never had to sacrifice or work for anything? Or that she considers Americans to be thieves?
Yikes…
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NJLawyer#65,: Now that is a significant point. If he is pandering to Hispanic voters then that is the issue, not whether it is advantageous or not to speak Spanish. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
To all others:
I am a firm believer that all who call the U.S. home should work diligently to learn to speak English. I have not posted anything to the contrary. For pragmatic reasons I have stated that it would be a good idea (not mandated, but encouraged) for Americans to learn another language. Each individual can determine for herself what that language should be based on their life goals. Outkast likes his Latin and Greek. He benefits greatly from those langugages and he uses them regularly.
There is a huge Spanish speaking population in the U.S. Those who speak only Spanish should be encourage to learn English. (BTW, I am strongly against bilingual education in our public schools, but that is another topic for another day.
I am also against the militants that Victoria and others have alluded to. Those who demand that Spanish (or any other language) be accepted as equal to English in America. I’ve got reasons for that as well.
But to deny that learning Spanish is a definite advantage in many parts of our country is to go against conventional wisdom.
My earlier statement about doing disservice to your children by not teaching them Spanish if they live in those environments took for granted that English was the first language and that learning Spanish was a second language to expand employment, ministry, and social opportunities.
By the way Victoria. I didn’t say you didn’t like Spanish speaking people. Those are words that you put into my mouth. These are the exact words (emphasis mine) that I said.
You don’t seem to like Spanish speaking people very much, and I are one.”
They were spoken in semi-jest to make a point about the way you are communicating. Those of us who are bilingual and come across comments like yours can easily draw that conclusion whether you meant it or not. I don’t know what is in your heart, but given what you have written I am led to wonder.
BTW, that last statement wasn’t made in an accusatory tone, only in a truly pensive way.
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Thanks momof5, but Arnbo’s comment isn’t even worth responding to. He’s trolling in the wrong waters.
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Adding to post my post #48 from Metanoia #43
Not true Metanoia, you were not honest in your first paragraph, as I stated in post #48 “You are not speaking the truth, I did not say I didn’t “like Spanish speaking people very much” and YOU KNOW IT – its just a sly way of slipping something between the lines which puts you or others in a ‘poor me, look what you’ve done/said’ mode, and no one is buying it where I live.
UNREASONABLE? – you bet it was, and UNTRUTHFUL too!
I don’t buy it, you’ve done this before when you post something that isn’t fair or honest, it becomes an instant “JEST” moment –
I copied your post # 43 exactly the way you wrote it in my post #48, so don’t try telling me I put words in your mouth -
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Arnbo: One of the neat things about this blog is that while there are people here spanning a wide range of viewpoints and we often disagree with each other dramatically, we don’t resort to third-grade namecalling.
If post #66 is going to be typical of your posts, I suggest you go back to third grade and learn some civility, and then come back.
If you don’t, I expect Lynn and her scepter will be along to make it not a matter of choice.
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Hi, y’all,
I’m new, and don’t usually engage in discussions like this, but I just thought I’d chime in since I’m an American citizen living in Canada, in an area that is heavily French (not Quebec, but close).
Canada chose to be a bilingual nation. As far as I can see, this benefits no one but the francophones, or more precisely, the Quebecois. Anglophones are supposed to learn French in the schools, and many jobs are closed to those who only know English. But the reverse is not always true. Many francophones refuse to learn English; in fact, there are laws in Quebec forbidding francophones from allowing their children to learn English. Something about the fear of losing their French culture. Francophones who do know English often refuse to speak it, choosing instead to force others to speak to them in French.
Many Anglophones are not exactly thrilled with the state of affairs here, but what can we do?
Well, here’s what our family has chosen to do: Our children are learning French. (I am trying, but have not been very successful.) Not so the francophones can say they “won”, but so that we can win them–to Christ. After all, that’s a big part of why we’re in this world. If we lived in the U.S., I’d have my children learn Spanish–and/or any other language that would help them reach a lost and dying world for Christ.
Sure, illegal immigration is criminal, and y’all should be trying to put a stop to it. But in the mean time, why not show them that Christ is not only for the English-speaking, law-abiding citizens? I bet many of you who are so outraged over being asked to learn Spanish send money to missions. You expect those missionaries to learn the language for whatever country they’re serving. Why not learn the language of the mission field in your own backyard?
Will you require them to learn English before you will be willing to share Christ with them? Why not humble yourself and reach out to them in Spanish? It IS a MUCH easier language to learn than French! (I speak from hard experience. I fear I will never learn.)
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By the way, I just re-read Metanoia #68:
“I am strongly against bilingual education in our public schools.”
Hear, Hear! Up here, French immersion isn’t working so well, if you ask me. Pretty sad when an anglophone child is forced to attend French-only classes in the lower grades. I had one such child in my Sunday school class once. At 8 years of age, she could speak perfect English (her mother tongue), but could only read and write French. If you’re going to go bilingual, teach them to read and write in their own language first, then teach them the other one.
But, as Metanoia implied, that is a whole ‘nother ball of wax.
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CatherinePearl
It’s not a matter of being “humble” its also a matter of being ‘called’ into mission work which requires learning another language, by GOD. GOD doesn’t call ‘all’ of us to do the same things. Some are called to service in teaching, preaching, comfort, mercy, and many other gifts. You obviously feel called to do what you are doing, but don’t believe for a moment that you are more “humble” than the rest, or that your admonishments are “humble” because you feel compelled to tell us what we as Believers in Jesus Christ ’should be doing’ because that is what you are ‘called to do’ –
Sharing Christ with many minorities in Southern California would be difficult, if we decided to learn each and every language. We are not all called to learn a language to be missionaries. Having said that, our church has services for many different languages, that includes Spanish and Asian languages speaking people, and other languages. The people who do this work are called to do so what God has planned for them.
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Musing: I unfortunately only had two years of Latin before I transfered to a different private academy that only offered Spanish. Yes, I would have enjoyed learning more of that great language — although when I was in the University Choir at NC State we did sing songs in Latin for performances of the Pennsylvania Ballet one year.
Regarding your comment about a portion of the U.S. wanted to secede at one point, were you aware that portions of New England (in the North) seriously considered seceding from the Union several times before the Southern states did, and that the U.S. Constitution gave states that ability?
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A few months ago, I bought the Trudeau miniseries shown in Canada. It was a big thing during his tenure that everyone learn French and laws were passed. It’s interesting to read how “well” that’s gone. I also purchased a French/English Canadian movies called “Bon Cop, Bad Cop” which has a Quebecois cop and a English cop pairing up to solve a crime. It was quite amusing to see how the two groups view each other in both movies. There are those here who would have us believe that Canada is this perfect socialist world. It ain’t.
Our friend Catherine Pearl makes an interesting and valid point about spreading the Gospel, and Victoria also makes a valid point regarding one’s calling. But spreading the Gospel has nothing to do with whether or not as a NATION, the US should be considered an English-speaking country. Politically, we should be. Language ties us together. English is the way we’ve assimilated all the various groups and to indulge one particular language will work against us. Canada is an excellent example of what happens — the Quebecois always want to secede. They still do. Trudeau was against that, though he was the one who had the language legislation passed.
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NJL
I believe to be united as people living, working in the USA, each person should endeavor to learn the English language. As you write: “Language ties us together.” —- you are right.
People get along much better when they can understand what the other person is saying, and writing. Language barriers, make for much misunderstanding, it has no purpose, but causes confusion.
I also believe NO ONE should be able to obtain a Drivers License without reading, writing and speaking English. If this were law, there would be real incentive to learn immediately.
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Victoria, I like you. I get scared when people agree with me readily, because I know I don’t have a handle on everything. I like for people to challenge me on what I say. Makes me check up on myself, or see what I’ve said from a different view point.
About humility: I know probably better than anybody (except my husband and children) that I have a problem with humility. No, I don’t believe for a moment that I am more humble than anybody. I wrestle constantly with pride.
One thing I know, though, is that sharing Christ with the world around us is not a “gift” or “calling” given to a select group of Christians. If I had a neighbour who knew only French, I would try to do two things at the same time: find someone who knew both languages to help me communicate, and double up on trying to learn French myself. Why? Because that’s MY neighbour. Some missionary hasn’t found her yet, but I have. As an ambassador of Christ, it is my responsibility to bring her to Christ.
A French ministry in our church would be a great asset. To fill that need, we could look for a francophone to help head that up. Only there aren’t any in our area who are willing to do that. So my son is trying to increase his knowledge of French to help with that. He does not feel “called” to be a preacher, teacher, or whatever. He doesn’t even feel “led” to go to Bible college. But he does sense the urgency of a job needing to be done, and nobody else willing and/or able to do it.
Back to my hypothetical neighbour: Supposing we did have a French ministry in our church. We could and would encourage her to attend. But what about her every-day life? Who’s going to encourage her in her Christian walk? What if I did? Would that make me a specially called, separate type of Christian? No, it would make me a Christian who loved my neighbour enough to meet her in her need. Hey, maybe she could help me with my French while I help her with her English, while we both help each other to walk closer to Christ.
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I think there is nothing more fun and interesting than learning different languages. I’ve been trying to teach myself how to say ‘Thank You’ in every language. I’m up to 15. Only a few thousand more to go. In Spanish the word means ‘Grace’, in French the word is ‘Mercy’. Cool eh?
Try reading the Bible in a different language and see how easy it is. If you know a passage, then read it in Spanish or French or German or Latin. Hebrew and Greek require learning a new alphabet, but with a little study you can read these too.
I have many full versions of the Bible in different languages on my iPod that I listen to. When I do my devotions I pick a different language each day and read a few paragraphs in that language.
When I go to church on Sunday I may grab a Bible in French or another day its Latin or Greek or Hebrew or Spanish or German. I’m not fluent in all these, but I know the passage well enough to hobble along.
There are interesting differences between languages. In Hebrew, you speak differently to men and women. There is no word for ‘is’. Clinton would have trouble defining what the word ‘is’ is in Hebrew!
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P.S. One warning about reading a Bible in a different language: Make sure you have a modern translation!
I said something to a man using an archaic term for ‘wife’ which has since become demeaning. Ouch!
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CatherinePearl – 78
So you’re saying that this woman’s conversion, coming to know Christ, being born again is YOUR responsibility? I don’t know if you have a profession other than staying home and being a housewife, but that isn’t the case for every single person.
You might try asking if there is someone in your church who speaks French to witness to your neighbor.
You continue to argue that YOU are the one who must learn the language of your neighbor, that its your responsibility, I don’t agree with it.
We have at least 7 languages spoken where I live, next door, down the street, across the street. That would be ‘Farsi’ – Chinese – Korean – Vietnamese, and a few others.
You feel strongly that whoever lives next door to you, — you in turn would need to learn their language so that you could share Christ. There are many ways God uses to reach people, it isn’t always the ‘next door neighbor’ – to put that responsibility upon anyone, or me is very unfair, not to mention unwise, UNLESS the LORD has specifically called me to learn this language.
What you are doing here Catherine Pearl, is making your calling, the calling of others who live next door to someone who speaks another language their calling because you say so — and further more you are saying “As an ambassador of Christ, it is my responsibility to bring her to Christ.” –
I witness to many in my life, those who speak English who are Persian, Vietnamese to name just two. I believe that’s where GOD has placed me. I also do a great deal of research and Biblical studies through the course of my day.
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Xion, you are obviously gifted in languages.
God bless you
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#81 Good point Victoria. My neighbor is Chinese and we introduced them to a Chinese couple from church. They happened to speak the same dialect and became fast friends. We never knew what they were chattering about. Fun to listen to though.
When the husband died of cancer, this friendship between them was a tremendous comfort. Unfortunately, the surviving wife is still not saved. Even so, Jesus was a friend to all. They keep in touch still.
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CatherinePearl, thank you for your convicting words. It is so true that we are called to spread the gospel to all, and our mission field truly is our own backyard. God bless you in your work.
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Victoria: Not that it matters, but I didn’t accuse you of saying you didn’t like Spanish speaking people.
I was pointing out an observation, that based on what you were saying and how you were saying it, a Spanish speaking person (and I am one) could conclude that you didn’t like Spanish speaking people.
You won’t agree with me and that is ok. I was just pointing out my observation. It’s similar in nature to your conclusion that I am not being honest. It’s your perception, but it doesn’t make it right. But if I was accused of dishonesty, which you have done, then I would try to clarify my statements so that they would read with more honesty.
I stand by my observation because you haven’t said anything in response to communicate otherwise.
You have accused a whole (or at least some part) of an ethnic group of being whiny, lazy and demanding entitlements. That has not been my experience or observation. Most immigrants I know want to learn English and are trying. But the ones I know believe that their best bet is to insure that their children learn it because it will be easier for them and they will be the greatest beneficiaries.
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SteveG #71: I don’t know that I would have said it in quite those same words, but I echo your sentiments.
Thanks
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metanoia – 85
YOU WRITE post 68: ….
“Victoria: Not that it matters, but I didn’t accuse you of saying you didn’t like Spanish speaking people.”
You could have fooled me Metanoia, read the post below.
“You don’t seem to like Spanish speaking people very much, and I are one.” They were spoken in semi-jest to make a point about the way you are communicating.”
Metanoia, this isn’t the first time you tried to play the ‘word game’ – but every time you do it, I’m going to CALL YOU ON IT -
MY post 48 below
Metanoia – 43
You are not speaking the truth, I did not say I didn’t “like Spanish speaking people very much” and YOU KNOW IT – its just a sly way of slipping something between the lines which puts you or others in a ‘poor me, look what you’ve done/said’ mode, and no one is buying it where I live.
My husband and I have friends who are from Mexico, Central American and South American, so you can cool down. These people work hard, learnng the English language without complaining and expecting others to give them something they can either learn/earn for themselves.
If all the others coming from other countries can accept responsibility, not expecting special privilege why can’t those who are Mexican’s, why are they UNABLE to grasp the English language, among other things?
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Ok Victoria, one more time. Where, o where did I say that you said you didn’t like Spanish speaking people? Read my comments again. You will not find that accusation at all. End of subject.
I said, and I would humbly ask you to bounce all of my statements off of your Hispanic friends to see what they have to say, that based on what you have written and how you have written it, a Hispanic person can easily draw the conclusion of my observations.
I’ll dare say that most Hispanics I know are too polite to tell you to your face, but if you have one that is truly a deep friend (s)he will be honest. If (s)he sides with you, I’ll concede. I’ll admit that I am wrong or at the very least over-sensitive to the point of paranoia. I’ll sincerely apologize to you.
I’ll say it again. It would seem that based on what you have said and how you have said it that a Hispanic person could easily conclude that you didn’t like Spanish speaking people.
I applaud you for having Hispanic friends. But having Hispanic friends and actually being one are two different things.
The defense rests.
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Victoria, #81
“So you’re saying that this woman’s conversion, coming to know Christ, being born again is YOUR responsibility?”
If it isn’t, whose responsibility is it? And what if that person thinks it’s someone else’s responsibility? What if she dies unconverted while we all debate about whose responsibility it is?
“I don’t know if you have a profession other than staying home and being a housewife, but that isn’t the case for every single person.”
What does that have to do with it? I want my whole life to be a witness wherever I am, and be ready to speak a word for Christ whenever I can.
“We have at least 7 languages spoken where I live, next door, down the street, across the street. That would be ‘Farsi’ – Chinese – Korean – Vietnamese, and a few others.”
You have a point. It would be difficult to learn all those languages. However, this thread is primarily about the Spanish who are not learning English. I mentioned the French in Canada because it is such a similar situation. If others, as I think you have said, are learning English, then there would be no need to learn their native languages. But it seemed to be the consensus on this thread that larger numbers of Spanish are NOT learning English. They are the ones for whom I would want to learn their language.
“What you are doing here Catherine Pearl, is making your calling, the calling of others who live next door to someone who speaks another language their calling because you say so…”
God forbid that I would ever tell anyone else to do any work for Him “because I said so”! Show me Scripture where God says it is NOT every Christian’s responsibility to reach out in love to his neighbours. In fact, when one man wished to justify himself on this point, Christ used a man from the most despised ethnic group in that area as the hero of His story about what it meant to truly love your neighbour.
Christ commands us to love our neighbour — from the woman next door to the stranger you go out of your way to help — just as much as we love ourselves. Instead of passing the responsibility on to someone else, we should all be going out of our way — even to the point of learning another language if necessary — to share Christ with all those around us. No matter who we are, where we live, or what our “day job” is, if we call ourselves Christians, we are first and foremost Christ’s servants, ready, willing and eager to do His bidding — which is to go out to the highways and the byways and compel the lost to come in.
If you disagree with what I’ve said, please use Scripture to make your case. It’s not a matter of “you say, I say,” but rather what does God say to each of us. Yes, we all have gifts differing one from another. But all those gifts are for the purpose of glorifying our Lord and bringing the lost to Him.
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metanoia – 88
Defense rests?
and now you think you’re in a court of law?
Metanoia, being a friend is being a friend, accepting irresponsible behavior, a defensive attitude to learn English, taking advantage of the USA, coming here illegally, expecting medical care, free education is wrong, its deceitful, and I don’t condone it.
The people we are friends with are not illegal, they don’t take advantage of the USA, as a FREE HANDOUT, those who take the other side of the road are not respected, its just that simple. Those who lie, are not friends of the USA -
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CatherinePearl – 89
It’s really simple. We are ALL called of GOD to spread the Gospel. We are ALL gifted in the body of Christ, we ALL are not given the same gifts.
If you feel led to study the language of your next door neighbor, then that’s EXACTLY what you should do, as for ME, I will do what the LORD directs me to do.
It would be wise for you to take care of Catherine Pearl’s gifts and what she is directed to do, and leave the directing of others up to the LORD, as HE has a plan for each of us.
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Musing 64 are you sure you are not discounting Hindi too early?
As cool as Hindi sounds, and as much as I’d like to learn it, I don’t see what advantage it would have in India, at least for doing business. Apparently, everyone in the cities there knows English anyway. (Though they have an accent and they mix some of their vocabulary between languages, since they learn both Hindi and English and/or a less widely spoken dialect. It’s actually kind of funny. A neat sort of funny, since I like languages.) But one day I might learn a bit of Hindi anyway, just for fun. I have a tendency to learn a little bit of a language, just enough to pronounce it, read and write it, and have a grasp on the basic grammar. Then I quit because vocab is boring. So far I know a bit of Japanese, Hebrew, and Quenya (a constructed language).
So yeah. English is probably fine for international business, but not having done international business, I’m not positive. I’m guessing Arabic and Mandarin Chinese and Japanese would be most useful. Possibly Hindi if what I’ve heard about them all speaking English only applies to a few of the business centers there.
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Sorry to double post, but I just wanted to mention a bit about my linguistic obsessions.
My favorite parts are learning to pronounce new sounds, trying to speak with a native accent, and learning to read the alphabet if it’s non-Latin or pronounce it their way if it is Latin. Vocab is overrated. Well, except that it’s more essential than any of my favorite parts. Ah well. I guess I’ll be limited to using a dictionary whenever I read stuff in another language. I think I’ll try something what like Xion does. Sounds fun.
Also, I’m currently making my own language, Tegwyc (its imaginary speakers refer to it as “Tegwynvant”). Waste of time? I suppose, but it’s fun and stretches my mind with other sounds, alphabet, grammar, etc. So it’s at least good for me personally.
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Wow, so much back and forth here and so many of you have said exactly what I was thinking in response. I just wanted to reiterate a couple of things and add a few:
1. As a high school teacher in Tucson, AZ, I am glad that we are getting away from bilingual education (i.e., English and Spanish) and moving toward Structured English Immersion (SEI). Though many of my students would benefit from my being fluent in Spanish, it would do nothing to help the increasing number of students I now have who are Somalian.
2. Canada is not an example of where we should be headed. It is not as bilingual a country as many would like to believe and one day, Quebec may well succeed in their desire to secede. That would make my Quebecois friend, Jean, whom I met during my two years in Mali, West Africa, very happy. I still remember my excitement in hearing that there were Canadians who had moved into my small town of Bougouni. At last, more people to speak English with – wrong! Jean and his family refused to speak English.
3. Europe is not as multi-lingual as everyone seems to think. The tiny country of Switzerland has three official languages and don’t assume that everyone speaks all three. I did fine in Lausanne speaking French, but I did better with English in Bern than I could ever do with French. You want poly-lingual, go to Holland. In my music-management business, we always look for tour managers from Holland because they usually speak English and German in addition to Dutch and that goes a long way.(BTW, not all Mexicans speak Spanish. There are over 160 officially recognized languages in Mexico)
4. There’s a big difference between speaking a language and knowing a few phrases. I speak English and French, but I only speak phrases of Bambara. After 6 months in Mali, I made the decision to drop my Bambara classes and double up on my French classes simply because French could serve me throughout Africa and Bambara was limited regionally.
5. I have NO problem with people who speak Spanish, but if they wish to become residents of the US, they should learn to speak English and we should do all we can to help them to learn it. That means changing this widespread enabling that’s going on. I’ll take 1/2 a page from the Quebecois here, all signs (government only, private citizens and businesses can do what they want) should be in English only. Why do we have signs in Tucson that say “Downtown” and “Centro”? Is “Downtown” really so hard to figure out? Honestly, when I first arrived in Paris from West Africa, I loved that I could see the language all around me (not a lot of signs where I was in Africa).
6. Arnold was right. Turn the Spanish language TV off one day a week. And that doesn’t mean watching Dora (Watch that closely and you’ll see that the goal of the show is more to teach English speakers Spanish, rather than the other way around). I don’t let my son watch Dora anymore. I speak to him in French and will encourage him to take French in high school in the hope that we can one day travel in Africa together. And I didn’t put him in a bilingual class when it was offered because I agree with the “Jack of all trades” comment submitted earlier. He’ll be in the second grade this year and his English vocabulary is the highest in his class. But these days, that might not be saying too much. Also, I love PBS, but what’s with Vme? Why are our tax dollars going to create a Spanish only digital channel? It would be one thing if they had it 60% Spanish and let the English parts alone without dubbing – hell, even subtitles would be better than dubbing.
7. If it’s true that all immigrants learn English by the second generation, than why do we have to learn Spanish for job opportunities? Immigrant waves of the past eventually all learned English, so why should it be any different now? Because it’s not a wave of Spanish speaking immigrants, it’s a continual flow (which is another issue) and because there are now 200+ channels of TV to watch and signs in Spanish, and “press 2 for Spanish” and … It needs to stop. Stop the enabling. If you or yours want to learn Spanish, great, have at it. But I don’t want my son to be discriminated against because he DOESN’T speak Spanish, but that’s where we’re headed. I don’t agree with all things French, but I must say, that on my last trip to Paris, I agreed with the fact that a Frenchman could have a job selling tickets in the Metro and have a sign above him that read “NO ENGLISH.” Not that he shouldn’t be allowed to speak English, but it shouldn’t be a requirement.
8. Finally, I have one word for Barak and all those people who think every child should be bilingual, Google. Remember how everyone on Startrek spoke English, even the Klingons. How’d they do that? The latest craze is people sending their toddlers to learn Chinese because it’s the future. No it’s not, Google is. Not everyone needs to speak Chinese for us to do business with China. We’re doing a hell of a lot of business with them already. If you want your son or daughter to be able to speak Chinese, I mean really speak Chinese, than you’d better get started on it right now too, or send them away to live with a family that speaks Chinese (or Arabic, or Spanish or whatever). Sure, bilingual Chinese/English speakers will be in demand, but it’s children who’ve grown up in Hong Kong or one of the Chinatowns in the US, who are going to be sought after by businesses, not your child. That’s not to say there’s no benefit from studying other languages and cultures. All can study, but not all will necessarily learn.
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outkast post 75,
I actually kept the allusion very vague for a reason. I was aware of the whisky rebellion, but I was not aware of New England efforts to secede. I will go chase that down. Thanks for the reference.
I am amused that this just adds more data to support the observation that just because a goup speaks the same language does not some how magically mean that they will try to stay together.
Indeed, I suggest it is much more a case of common interests justifying integration which keeps countries together. In the far past the countries did not exist, so there is no magic entitlement to them being a country. In the far future, history suggests that all the countries we know today will be gone (yes nicely vague because there are many ways in which this may occur!
).
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Personally, I speak fluent French and passable Spanish, though the reality is today that English has become a lingua franca; fortunately for us its really not necessary to know a foreign language. From a lot of international travel for business and pleasure over the years, I find the need to speak a foreign language is minimal.
Investor Business Daily today has an article, Lost In Translation, including:
English became the global language because Britain spread its mother tongue through colonization and trade. And the U.S. sailed capitalism, ambition, a tireless work habit, fairness, justice, the rule of law and a rigorous military defense against tyranny to the top of the world. It’s not fashionable to say so in the circles that Obama travels in, but the power and universality of the English language confirm — and strengthen — America’s way of life.
As to Obama, is he fluent in any foreign language, or is this another one of his gaseous positions?
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Anlir is correct. There is nothing – no, not anything, controversial about learning a second language. Three or 4 would be btter of course but you have to start somewhere mon amis.
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Peter Leavitt post 95,
it looks like Obama is fluent in Indonesian as noted in:
http://econ4obama.blogspot.com/2008/06/foreign-languages-and-candidates.html
which makes sense since his early years were in Indonesia.
His mastery of Spanish may not meet your defintion of fluent, but he does apparently speak it.
It looks like McCain has not mastered any foreign language.
As to English, I will suggest an interesting alternative twist:
Britain spread English to all their colonies including India. India, in the face of a multitude of different tribal languages, depended on English as their lingu franca. As such, it would appear that India is the largest English speaking country in the world.
I suggest that the rapid adoption of English for commerce after World War II may have been driven by the fact that immediately after WW II, the U.S. was about 50% of the world economy.
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Please forgive me for quoting another part of the IBD article as follows:
Maybe he’s [Barack Obama] just uncomfortable with the truth [of global English] or simply has a political interest in disregarding it and exploiting the current mindless vogue among America’s elites to feel ashamed of our country.
One of the reasons that I am appalled about Barack Obama is that he is distinctly a part of the American liberal elite that is ashamed of our country. It’s hard to see how he will make crucial decisions in our interests about international relations and national security poliucy with this frame of mind.
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I did some more research and according to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
It appears that India is the second largest English speaking country in the world behind the U.S..
My apologies here.
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Peter Leavitt at #98: Please forgive me for quoting another part of the IBD article as follows:
Maybe he’s [Barack Obama] just uncomfortable with the truth [of global English] or simply has a political interest in disregarding it and exploiting the current mindless vogue among America’s elites to feel ashamed of our country.
Or maybe he recognizes that Americans who speak Spanish will have a much easier time among recent immigrants (even legal ones) than those who don’t, and there’s no need to invoke fevered right wing claptrap about “hating America” to explain it.
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Musing, one is delighted to know that St. Obama speaks fluent Indonesian, which makes sense knowing that he lived and went to school in that Muslim country for several years. I’ll sleep a bit better tonight knowing that as president Obama would have the ability to speak Bahasa, knowing that this country is such a crucial player on the world stage.
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Now the following article may be of interest here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6122072.stm
where the article explores the impact of the increasing regionalization of English.
I have seen arguments that there are perhaps three major versions of English developing, although I am sure that is a complicated discussion.
Oh by the way, this article also notes the India has more English speakers than any other country in the world, as per my earlier comment.
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Peter leavitt post 101,
what and no commentary on Spanish?
I do see, however, that you are back to your typical ways of discounting and ignoring any informatino which does not match your preconceptions of the world.
You asked, and in a rather disdainful way, I might add:
“As to Obama, is he fluent in any foreign language, or is this another one of his gaseous positions?”
He speaks not one but two foreign languages, one of them spanish as he recommended.
And you neither admit your error nor apologize for the form of your question.
But again this would seem a repeated set of behaviors in your comments: you apparently absolutely refuse to accept any information which contradicts your own preconceptions, no matter how well documented.
Reading your responses, it would appear that you would prefer to be wrong and persist in your error rather than learn and understand anything new.
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Musing, John McCain probably learned a bit of Vietnamese having spent five and a half years in a North Vietnamese prison. Also, he picked up some more of the language when he traveled there with John Kerry in connection with a politically courageous and successful effort to gain official diplomatic recognition for Vietnam.
Could you give us an example of a major successful, courageous political effort that St. Obama has made anywhere or anytime in his political career?
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Musing says: “informatino”
See. That’s what happens in a bilingual society: mash-ups. Soon we’ll all be speaking spanglish.
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Steve, I’ve actually had many occasions to speak Spanish to Latino immigrants, legal and illegal, most of whom are properly rather embarrassed at their lack of ability to speak English.
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Spanish is not a foreign language.
My daughter learned German and French in the early grades. Kids enjoy learning the songs, fairy tales and proverbs of other languages. Amazingly, they soak up pronouns, “to be,” a couple of dozen common verbs, and a couple of hundred nouns.
Adults can achieve passive knowledge of other languages and clumsy performance.
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Musing says: “informatino” Musing has gone native again, being enamored of any third world nation in the universe. He needs to find a squalid hut somewhere and reflect on the iniquity of America.
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Peter Leavitt post 104,
when you say:
“Could you give us an example of a major successful, courageous political effort that St. Obama has made anywhere or anytime in his political career?”
in response to my observstion that you are not willing to admit that your judgement on Obama’s learning foreign languages was incorrect would indeed seem to prove my point.
Rather than address my observation and objection to your approach, you attempt to change the subject!
Wonderful!
And you call me deceitful!?!
Someday you might try opening your mind the possiblity that some of your preconceptions are in fact wrong.
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Peter Leavitt post 108,
and I suggest that this comment:
“Musing says: “informatino” Musing has gone native again, being enamored of any third world nation in the universe. He needs to find a squalid hut somewhere and reflect on the iniquity of America.”
shows just how juvenile and irrational you seem to have become.
You apparently went to Harvard. Are you able to use that education?
Perhaps at some point you might be able to actually address the core of the argument rather than your continued ad hominem attempts to denigrate those who have caught you in factual and logical errors.
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Peter Leavitt at #106: Steve, I’ve actually had many occasions to speak Spanish to Latino immigrants, legal and illegal, most of whom are properly rather embarrassed at their lack of ability to speak English.
In that case, your own experience shows you that Obama was right in his statement. So what is your argument?
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In response to:
“India is the largest English speaking country in the world.” This is a common error that occurs when the ability of a the educated minority of any country can speak a language and then that ability is ascribed to every citizen of that country.
I’m sure that all the citizens of Mali are counted as French speakers since it’s the official language and the language of instruction in school. Doesn’t change the fact that I one evening I had to help a traveling N;igerian man arrange travel in a bush taxi with seven Malian men. It took four different languages: English, French, Bambara and ?, and 2 hours to pull it off.
I don’t care how many languages US residents can speak, so long as one of them is English.
Again, not everyone in Mexico speaks Spanish, far from it. For that matter, neither does everyone in Spain. There’s a wonderful foreign film, I forget the name, that takes place in Barcelona. It’s about a bunch of foreign exchange students at the University there who share an apartment. They all share one common language, English. It’s funny how one student complains that she can’t understand her professor who refuses to instruct in Spanish, after all, that why she went to study in Spain.
Finally, knowing a second language is great, even though I rarely have occasion to speak French, I’m still glad I can “mes amis;” but that does not make the majority of Americans wrong for wanting English to be the official and primary language of US residents. Obama is WRONG, I have every right to worry more about immigrants learning English than worry about my son speaking Spanish.
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Musing, unfortunately, one of the things I learned at Harvard was not to suffer fools gladly. I am aware of this besetting sin and sometimes am sometime even manage to overcome it.
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Pardon the awkwardness of the last sentence above.
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Peter Leavitt post 113,
I agree one should not suffer fools gladly. That is why in my educational experience, when you are wrong you admit it and move on.
It seems foolish to insist that you are right when the documentation clearly shows you are in error.
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I am aware of this besetting sin and sometimes manage to overcome it.
The reader asks, why is it a sin, and how does he overcome it?
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scoop moth post 116,
what I find interesting is that it does not appear that there is any serious issue with being wrong: if you are never wrong you probably aren’t trying hard enough. If you are never wrong, you certainly won’t learn anything new.
Where the error occurs (I prefer error to sin for this class of issue) is in refusing to accept when you are wrong.
P.S. I have always delighted in the observation that R&D progress generally occurs when there is an experimental failure: that is when the researcher was wrong!
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Dan, thanks for your thoughtful remarks, especially: I don’t care how many languages US residents can speak, so long as one of them is English.
Were it not for the fact that many Americans speak poor English, I could stir up some enthusiasm for them tackling a foreign language. In my case, perhaps curiously, I learned the structure and a lot of English vocabulary from the pleasure of six years of Latin and a couple of the Greek.
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Dittos to what Peter Leavitt wrote in post #118.
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Personally, I speak fluent French and passable Spanish, though the reality is today that English has become a lingua franca; fortunately for us its really not necessary to know a foreign language.
On the phone, he speaks fluent nonsense, though the reality is today its really not necessary to know what he means.
As to Obama, is he fluent in any foreign language, or is this another one of his gaseous positions?
Peter speaks gaseous too! But does it make any difference to him what Obama speaks?
I am appalled . . . that he is distinctly a part of the American liberal elite that is ashamed of our country
Peter begs us to judge him by the same Waspy measure by which he judges others — association.
. . . give us an example of a major successful, courageous political effort that St. Obama has made . . .
Get it? Obama’s not really a saint, so “St.” is ironic! Peter’s making fun of voters who believe they will make Obama president by canonizing him! You can learn to be that clever only at Harvard. Anyway, several posters over on the Jesse Jackson thread are suggesting they and many others may want to mutilate Obama. Portrayed in vibrant oils, such an event could make him a saint.
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Since I make my living editing other people, I hope I can consider myself plenty fluent in English. As a child, I wanted very much to learn Latin, but never had the opportunity. I planned to learn it in high school, but alas, by the time I got there they offered only Spanish and French.
Mom suggested French, which in retrospect was a very bad suggestion since we were living in Phoenix and I should have studied Spanish! But one cannot “learn” a language by correspondence anyway, so I got through a year of French knowing absolutely nothing. (The tests were open book–I suppose they set them up that way intentionally since students would simply cheat if they weren’t set up that way–and I looked up every word, every tense, and still barely passed French.)
In college I took Spanish…from a horrid teacher. (One fellow student was very motivated, since he had a mission trip that summer where knowing Spanish was helpful. But he cancelled the mission trip at the end of the first semester since it was clear he wasn’t going to learn enough Spanish for even the most basic communication.)
So for me, two attempts and two failures, and I’ve decided to stick with English. (Sometime back I bought a Latin text to teach myself Latin, but I finally decided I would never get around to it, as much as I wanted to when I was a kid.)
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I took Latin from a giant black cajun with a huge afro in Mississippi. He looked like the guy on the mod squad, but about a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier. Latin class wen’ som’tin lie dis hea:
“Dat der clocus in dem Romas es magnas. Hey yo all y’all in dat row, go’on now and repeat afta me, ‘foe I slap yo haid”
This has left me linguistically scarred for life.
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CheryD, your posts on this blog are usually a model of clear, concise English. I figure that you somehow got a hold of Strunk and White’s Elements of Style.
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Anyway, several posters over on the Jesse Jackson thread are suggesting they and many others may want to mutilate Obama.
Nonsense, Scroop.
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That’s good, XION, if accidentally you “oprima el dos” you won’t have to hang up and start over.
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If George Bush can’t prevail upon Angela Merkel to deny Obama permission to give a speech at the Brandenburg Gate, we may get to hear Obama try to pronounce an umlaut, as in, “Ich bin ein Europäer.” Our bruised American feelings probably doesn’t allow anymore a presidential candidate abroad to express that kind of solidarity with foreigners. But it wouldn’t be as bad as saying “Je suis Français.”
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Mr. Obama needs to pull his head from the cavernous hole that seems to be loaded with methane gas and “really back off” on telling Americans we need to; “make sure your child can speak Spanish”. he stated we didn’t need to worry, “the immigrants would learn English”. He lives in a dream world in a part of the country that doesn’t have to use sign language to communicate with lawn service employees. The men doing the work on remodeling the home don’t need to call their foreman to translate what the heck you’re trying to tell them. I could go on but don’t see the need.
Speak English or go home!
Obama just lost 2 votes.
Don & Mary
La Porte, TX
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Since Lowe’s and Home Depot are so bilingual now, I always ask for what I want in Spanish. When they scratch their heads, I point to the signs which are all in Spanish. But none of the employees can speak Spanish. This is both fun and confusing!
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don post 127,
hmm, I do sense a time constant problem here.
Perhaps if you leanrned a bit of Spanish you might not have to use sign language during the period when the immigrants are trying to learn English?
My guess is that it took you a bit to learn English yourself, maybe it will take them some time as well?
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Don is part of the “Xenophobe Pride” movement.
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steveg post 130,
I realy prefer to let the poster clearly make their allegiance known. I let Peter indtroduce the concept of fool. I will probably let don introduce the concept of xenophobe.
I have found that many posters are quite willing to enter the appropriate terms themselves if given an opportunity.
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