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The dark side of The Dark Knight
I’m sure some of you out there are a bit bleary-eyed this morning after catching a midnight screening of The Dark Knight last night. For those of you waiting until today, or later, WORLD’s Sam Thielman’s offers his take on the latest Batman flick, including the much-talked-about portrayal of the Joker:
The film’s early reviews have been gently quizzical about the late, lamented Heath Ledger’s magnetic performance as the Joker. It’s obvious that he’s doing a superb job, but nobody seems to know what he’s doing. Let me clear things up: He’s playing Satan. Ledger flicks his tongue like a snake, tempts people to kill one another, and is gleefully sloppy with bullets, bombs, and knives. Everyone else plays gangland archetypes; Ledger’s Joker has escaped to the movies from Milton, or C.S. Lewis’ Perelandra.
Sam also offers this warning for parents:
I should note here that I have been a film reporter for years and have no idea why, beyond the power of the Warner Bros. empire, The Dark Knight is rated PG-13. This is an R-rated movie if I’ve ever seen one—the violence isn’t particularly bloody but it’s disturbing. You may laugh at the occasional demented gag, but if you do, you’ll feel ill. Don’t take your kids. They’ll whine about it. Don’t take them.
Read his complete review here.
back to top58 Comments to “The dark side of The Dark Knight”
“Don’t take your kids….Don’t take them.”
As a long time comic book fan, I can attest that many comics have been like this since 1985, since Frank Miller’s original graphic novel “The Dark Knight Returns,” and Alan Moore’s “Watchmen” which are very adult oriented in their themes. Though I read both of these books as a fairly sophisticated teenager. They are sorta “PG-13″/R comic books.
Great books though.
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So, Jon, I guess you’re saying this kind of movie is a far cry from the “Bat Shark Repellant” type of camp of the 1960’s Batman?!?
Seriously, it seems like folks complained a little when Tim Burton’s version of Batman came out around 1989. It was “darker” that previous screen adaptations. Of course, it had its own sort of campiness (e.g., Jack Nicholson attempting to dance to Prince’s music playing on boom boxes).
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I’m guessing Satan is way more subtle than any Joker who killed himslef. I’ll wait for it o come out on Chinese DVD’s for cheap.
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The original Tim Burton came out just a few years after Frank Miller “darkened” Batman in 1985 and played up that angel. Though Burton’s Batman still wasn’t as dark as Miller’s 1985 Batman. However, this movie is about where Miller took Batman in ‘85.
Miller recently attempted (and laughably failed) to make Batman all the darker and worse in a gruesomely violent “Batman and Robin” series that is still coming out. The character is so not Batman (or Robin) but one of Miller’s sick and twisted “Sin City” characters.
In one issue, 12 year old Robin attempts to murder the Green Lantern by crushing his larynx only to have Batman save the day by performing an emergency tracheotomy and then losing his lunch.
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I’ve given up the hope that parents will take their kids to only age appropriate films. I’m not willing to agree yet on the R rating (I think I”m seeing the movie tomorrow), but I am expecting many 6, 7, 8, and 9 year old kids to be their when I go. I had that problem with the Golden Compass as well. Like I’m 25 and I still cringed when that polar bear got his jaw smacked off!
I am however super excited about this movie! [A] I love Batman! Always have. He’s the only DC franchise worth anything. [B] I happen to think that Christian Bale is an extremely attractive man, and frankly I have sense Newsies. [C] I’m excited about awesome legislator, fellow Batman fan, and general G Patrick Leahy finally get a speaking role!
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Watchmen is fantastic. One of my favorite books. The trailer for the 2009 movie is played before The Dark Knight. If you missed it, you can catch it here.
I doubt the movie can do justice to the book’s many subtleties. The tension between the superhero values of truth & justice and the politics of the real world will probably get dropped in favor of good guys versus bad guy. I’m guessing it will be a political fable touching on the psychological nuance of being a supposed good guy but above the law, and emphasizing the problem of society resenting its unaccountable protectors, who in some measure deserve that resentment.
In short, it will probably get the V for Vendetta treatment: strip the complexities and end with a good bloodletting, maybe add some preachiness so the movie-going public doesn’t miss The Point.
I’m thrilled about it, anyway.
I read Frank Miller’s Dark Knight Returns as an adult. It was a compelling read, but I got the impression Miller was trying to evoke a grudging respect for people willing, in Dick Cheney’s words, to “work the dark side.” I just didn’t share that respect. I know that’s Batman’s MO, but something about Miller’s telling (and it’s been awhile, so I can’t quite put my finger on it) didn’t sit quite right. Maybe my reading was too political: Batman as metaphor for the neo-conservative project.
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I think Miller has in the meantime become more sympathetic to the neo-conservative project. But I read the original DKR as a paleo-conservative or libertarian message: Violent crime is wrong and must be punished, but the government is corrupt and has no right to a monopoly on police power. This is very anti-neoconservative if you ask me. Reagan and Superman represented neoconservatism in DKR and they were the villains!
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Huh. I’ll have to read it again.
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I don’t think I’ll see the Watchmen. Everything touched by Zach Snyder tends to turn to stupid.
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—*** Potential SPOILER ALERT ***—
Just saw the film tonight and I thought it was great. Tense and long but also worthwhile, if you can deal with “tense and long”. (Also I think, somehow, Australia ended up with this film released a couple of days early… it’s already 3:15am Saturday morning here and the film’s been out since Wednesday. Yay for Oz!).
Call the Joker “Satan”, call him “Bacchus”, call him “Dionysus”, call him the “Id”, I think Heath did a brilliant job in portraying a character that lives and acts for chaos (or for obstacles created by the non-adherence to order), but he somehow (I don’t know how) pulls it off in a way that seems simultaneously meaningful. It’s hard to explain, but I’ve seen villains that commit purposeless acts and appear very shallow because of it, but the Joker’s chaotic behaviour comes across as meaningful in the film… even if the meaning is to act without any desire for a fixed or pre-meditated outcome!
And yes, his character exhibits all of the attributes that our Apollonian minds seek to demonise, to “Satanise”; but rather than employing a knee-jerk reaction that would demonise such an archetype, I’m compelled to see the Joker as a representation (a metaphorical, archetypal representation) of the reality of life. Life does not conform to the order that we wish it often would, and it throws up obstacles and warps our idealism. That’s life, that’s reality. One can demonise it and call it “Satan”, split it off and try to destroy it; hiss and spit at it, and scream that it’s all unfair; cling fervently to the idealism of how one believes life should be… or one can live with it as a part of life.
All in all I think the film was great, and I’m sure I’ll be musing on it for some time to come.
(And, pre-emptively, I’m talking metaphorically and archetypally here. Not literally. A literal Joker = not cool. A metaphorical Joker is something that we all confront at some stage.)
—*** Potential SPOILER ALERT ***—
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This is dark.
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Hollywood seems bent on inventing newer, debauched ways of expressing random acts of violence. I was revolted by the sheer randomness of Pulp Fiction, when the character played by Samuel L. Jackson was ‘preaching’ at two thugs he held at gun point, and when he raised his hand as in gesture, pulled the trigger on one of them at point blank range! The movie industry has thoroughly desensitized people when they look back and laugh about it. Does the Joker raise (or lower, depending on your point of view) the bar?
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Ok why post spoilers at all? Really? No, really? It can’t be necessary for discussing either [A] the Joker as Satan, [B] kids at age inappropriate movies, nor [C] how hot is Christian Bale! Just totally uncalled for!
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The warning is just not enough, because while i skipped over them, some who reads them isn’t going to include a warning when they are commenting! It’s a recipe for unpleasantness.
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Oh man, I LOVED the Samuel Jackson character from PF and how he brilliantly quoted the Bible.
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In Frank Miller’s newest series on Batman we are introduced to a Joker who has sex with a Prostitute, strangles her to death and tells her he did it because he loves her. I really didn’t object to how Miller portrays the Joker in his new series, because the Joker really is that sick and twisted. It’s just he took Batman and Robin from being merely “dark” and “grim” to almost as sick and twisted.
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CCC:
You might appreciate this thought-provoking review:
Armond White of the NY Press
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JJF: I edited your comment because you quoted too extensively from a copyrighted review. I hope you understand.
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Alright, let me try again. I want to give a little taste of White’s thesis so people will follow the link. (I know I tend to ignore naked links.)
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Better. Thanks, JJF.
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Speaking of parents taking kids to age inappropriate movies, my wife and I (we were only dating at the time) almost gave up on movies entirely when we went to showing of the (awful) Jennifer Lopez thriller “The Cage” and saw that a mom and dad had brought the family along, including two kids under the age of 5, along with an infant. Surprise, surprise, the kids were traumatized at the display of vivisection, etc., on screen.
On a lighter note, I was very disappointed a couple years back at the movie “The Prestige” (though “The Illusionist” was quite good). When I saw that Christian Bale and Hugh Jackman were the stars, I thought that sounded compelling. It would have been better if we could have seen Batman fight Wolverine instead.
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Well everyone know Wolverine would totally murder Batman!
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I mean….come on!
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That’s kinda what I thought too, Luke, but Batman is so crafty. He’d probably invent an adamantium-coated suit and then use some kind of nerve gas to disable Wolverine.
Just a thought. But it would make more sense than the final scenes of “The Prestige.”
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Heh. Let’s get into one of those hypothetical fights that dominated my high school days spent with comic book and Magic the Gathering geeks.
“Yeah, but Wolverine would probably be resistant to the nerve agent, like he was in Obscure SidePlot Comic #17…”
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OK, I didn’t want to have to pull out this uber-geek reference, but…
I remember reading an issue of X-Men back in the mid-80’s where Thunderbird’s brother tried to extract revenge from the X-Men (blaming Xavier for the death of his older brother), the plot which included incapacitating the X-Men by using some sort of nerve agent. It did, at least, knock out Wolverine for a while.
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I’ve read some amusing articles about how some comic book writers get very frustrated with how other comic book writers deal with the characters and not properly understanding their powers and limitations such that when writer A takes over for writer B on a book, they feel the need to go back and “reexplain” or “rewrite” what occurred, just for the sake of “cleaning up” comic book logic and reality.
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re #5 – I truly enjoyed the Warlord by Mike Grell – somehow it didn’t last long. “Sgt. Rock” was pretty good too – however the plot lines became sorely thin due to the limitations of stories that could involve a working class soldier like Frank Rock.
I am a Batman aka “Dark Knight” fan myself, and have three full sets of the Miller “Dark Knight” series.
Other than that – I loved the X-Men, Conan, Spiderman and a handful of indies.
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Besides Watchmen & the first DKR I also love Kurt Busiek’s Astro City. Practically anything drawn by George Perez but notably Crisis on Infinite Earths and his run with Busiek on the Avengers. Busiek’s & Perez’s JLA/Avengers crossover is also notably very good. Also Mark Waid’s & Alex Ross’ “Kingdom Come.”
Currently writer Geoff Johns is doing a lot of ground breaking work over at DC. Interesting “continuity” issues being addressed at Justice Society of America with Kingdom Come and Crisis on Infinite Earths tie ins. The newest JSA annual is a must read for such DC continuity and nostalgia geeks.
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Re 25, you are right Batman would win in a fight with Wolverine by using his mind. After all, he’s beaten Superman numerous times in this respect.
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#10 FLAMING ICARUS
Please don’t take this as an attack.
This kind of post is why I don’t like art, poetry, literature and the like. I understand all the words, but it just leaves me walking away. There is some kind of meaning to it but I don’t get it. It is just foolishness to me.
There must be a high class gene missing. I don’t get it and I don’t like it. People I know and respect say it is important. I have a tin ear.
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#31 Jon Rowe
No, the Hulk would beat them all because the Hulk is green and green is winning everybody today.
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Luke,
Sorry about that. I didn’t discuss any plot points in my post but I thought that discussing my impression of the Joker might have been close to a spoiler. But, looking back, it’s really just a comment on “[A] The Joker as Satan” and I don’t think it reveals any more than Mickey’s original post.
Bob Buckles,
No problems. I was a music and film major so I can get carried away with this stuff.
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I always liked Batman, because he was simply a mortal man. No cool superpowers, just cool gadgets. But I liked Hulk and Superman as well. But I never debated anyone about who would beat who, in imaginary battles. ‘Course I had a girlfriend, so maybe that explains it!
Just kidding guys, have’n a little fun with ya.
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Okaaaayy. I just saw this movie, and without being too indelicate, I think I know why Heath Ledger is dead. Nobody can channel Satan that effectively and maintain their mental well-being. This is no cliche, he really WAS the personification of Chaos, the Abyss, Pandemonium, etc. Not just hamming it up and acting nutty, but really making you believe that he would slit your throat for giggles. I will not sleep well tonight.
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When a movie is going to delve into the “dark side” of things, from a materialistic worldview p.o.v., I prefer iit to be thorough in adopting that view. I liked Requiem For A Dream for that reason. It was gritty. But it dodn’t glamorize or sugarcoat.
I am going to Dark Knight tomorrow.
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John M.,
Would you recommend it, or should I just wait for DVD?
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Question: When can we talk about specific plot development? New spoiler thread maybe?
I went this afternoon. I have a student working at the theater who played lookout for me. She called at 11:00 to tell me the first two shows (12:30, 1) were sold out. I had to take my boy to the doctor at 12:15 so I had my wife drop me off as soon as we finished at 12:45 to get tickets for the 2 pm show. I jumped out of the car and ran around the corner to find…7 kids standing in front of the box office waiting for a ride. I bought my ticket and sat in the theater by myself for an hour like a real fanboy dork.
But it was worth the “wait”. I read the Armond White article and it read like he has a serious axe to grind against Chris Nolan. His characterization of Maggie G’s “slouching” was poor. There were several lines that Katie Holmes could have delivered better but he chose to attack her posture. Telling.
For all the talk of Heath Ledger’s Joker (and he is beyond convincing) I was most taken with Aaron Eckhart’s Harvey Dent. I thought the Nolans wrote a logical progression from pretty boy idealist to coin-flipping psychopath. I was very disappointed with his final condition but it is crucial to establishing the Dark Knight image. Ledger’s Joker was spot on in my mind. My first introduction to Joker was at the death of Jason Todd.
I am so thankful for Morgan Freeman (you want to blackmail him?) and Michael Caine (a dog?) for providing honest levity. The Nolans’ pulled off what Sam Raimi couldn’t in one of the most incredible Gwen Stacey moments and aftermath since Amazing 121-122. I am inclined to agree with Gary Oldman that this is one of the greatest action movies of all time. It is definitely the #2 comic book movie.
But I don’t know how soon I can see it again. It is in the same vein as the Passion of the Christ or John Q. Absolutely essential to helping formulate and answer tough questions but so incredibly taxing. There were definitely no nipples on this Batsuit.
And I don’t know if Batman beats Wolverine. I think that goes to who is writing them. Wolvie doesn’t have a weakness like Kryptonite but does have an intense, berserker killer inside him. His speed, strength, agility, and recovery are well beyond human and I think you have to look at the setting and motivation. To throw a blanket out there and say Bats has it doesn’t work. On paper he doesn’t stand a chance. Set it up right and I might give it to you.
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Saw the movie on IMAX today. IT WAS AMZING! Though it was very dark… and that is an understatement. I don’t think content wise it should have been rated R, though it is definitely not a children’s movie. NIGHTMARE CITY! It was slightly disturbing at times. Heath Ledger did a fantastic job! It was one of the best performances I have ever seen. He made you feel unsafe in the theater.
This is an example of how dark the movie was:
For some reason after the movie they didn’t turn the lights back on. So you walked out in the dark. I wanted nothing more than the light from the hallway. It felt like walking down an eternal corridor of hopelessness until you finally reached the light.
Just imagine feeling like you were never going to be happy again. Like all is lost and there is next to no hope. That is how well Heath Ledger played his part.
Not a very good explanation, but I am not a very good writer.
This movie did a really great job of portraying good verses evil. It showed that there is no sitting on the fence. You are either for or against. It showed the struggle that good people have with evil. And how easy corruption can overtake. Even the miniscule evil things that certain characters did long in their past ended up having horrible consequences.
It was spectacularly done. I enjoyed every minute of it. I am going to go see it again later this week, except in mega screen digital projection, so I can see which one I like better. I have seen both, but not the same movie on both. So we will see what happens.
P.S. I have seen some people ask if it is worth seeing in theaters… YES! It is one of those huge movies that you have to see in theaters. The chase scenes and explosions would not have the same effect. If you have yet to experience a movie (Other than a documentary) in an IMAX or digital projection this would be a good movie to start with. It is not just the picture quality but the sound quality that is enhanced as well. There are a few scenes the literally shake the building! And the joker has this eery theme that plays and the powerful sound system really helps the intensity of some of his scenes. Besides, who wants to wait?
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Man, I just got done watching this. Very Very Very Dark. Saturated to the bone. Great movie, great presentation, great acting all around. It is one of the best ever comic book movies, if not movies in general. Be prepared…regardless of how descencitized we may be from having watched violent movies, horror, crime dramas over the last 20 years…i imagine most will not be to this. Ledger’s Joker is the unbound evil, unrestricted and perfectly gleeful.
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The Real AJ:
Oh yeah. Go. Go tonight. See it in digital or IMAX if you can.
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Okaaaayy. I just saw this movie, and without being too indelicate, I think I know why Heath Ledger is dead. Nobody can channel Satan that effectively and maintain their mental well-being
I think it’s more likely that Ledger is dead due to all the drugs he was taking to deal with the guilt of making a gay porn movie.
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It can’t be because he “channeled Satan”, since Satan doesn’t exist.
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NIght Train-
I was watching a list of clips on Yahoo and they interviewed Ledger shortly after he finished wrapping “I’m Not There” and before he actually started filming Dark Knight. I was struck with how hard he was tweaking. You know those low production, you sit in this chair in front of the movie poster interviews? He could barely stay inside the frame and couldn’t control himself fidgeting with a pencil. For how hard he threw himself into I was disturbed when he delivered that line about gravity in light of seeing that interview.
I didn’t know he felt guilty about Brokeback, where can I find that article?
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Heath Ledger’s girlfriend left him with their daughter and he was missing them. Sometimes people take medications to deal with emotional problems and disappointments, which creates physical ones as well, like insomnia. Unless you’ve been prescribed those drugs and/or pain drugs, you don’t know how easy it is to think that one more pill will finally do the trick. Not that I’d wish chronic pain on any of you. Ledger died because he mixed his prescribed medications and cold medicine to an extent that his body could not metabolize them.
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“I think it’s more likely that Ledger is dead due to all the drugs he was taking to deal with the guilt of making a gay porn movie.”
You see while less experienced medical professionals like Bill Frist needed a photo of Terri Shaivo to make a diagnosis, Dr. Night Train’s astute medical insights let him pass all sorts of medical, psychological, and even artistic judgments by just skimming an op-ed in the National Review.
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Ahhhhhh…I read the words ‘qwen stacy moment’!!! I’m not reading this blog anymore until i see the movie!
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which i am doing at 2:30 today.
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#21: My wife informs me that the name of the J-Lo film was actually “The Cell”, not “The Cage.” So much for memory. Actually, I remember that was when Vincent D’Ofriono (sp?) was still doing movies before he came over to TV to do Law and Order. He’s pretty good in that role. He was a freak in “The Cell.” Come to think of it, he also has mental struggles on L&O. Same thing for “Full Metal Jacket.” At least he was only possessed by an alien cockroach in Men in Black.
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Luke-
I am sorry.
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Ok. I loved it.
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Just came from the movie. I’d say 15 and up to see the movie. Definitely no one under 13 should see it.
Wow. What a movie!
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Luke at #47: Dr. Night Train’s astute medical insights let him pass all sorts of medical, psychological, and even artistic judgments by just skimming an op-ed in the National Review.
Not only that, he’s also enough of a film historian to be aware of a gay porn film that Heath Ledger made.
(At first I thought he might be talking about Brokeback Mountain, but since that wasn’t especially explicit, let alone pornographic, that can’t be it.)
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Even if Heath made a gay porn movie or took drugs – so what? Does that make his life any less valuable than Night Train’s?
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Anlir-
I doubt it. Why do you ask?
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I’m surprised no one has commented on the extremely humanist message of The Dark Knight (people are good if you give them a chance).
Since everyone seems to be throwing their opinion out, I thought the movie was very good, but Two-Face’s story was handled poorly. His motivation as a villain is solely revenge for a relationship that isn’t properly developed throughout the film.
Also, what is it with this movie’s fantasy about innocuous car crashes? Bruce’s Lamborghini gets side-swiped at high speed and he isn’t injure, then Two-Face shoots the driver of his car, but isn’t injured.
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Night Watch, your observations are spot on. The first one you make, however, gives away a minor plot point, so perhaps that’s why most folks may have not commented on it.
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