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	<title>Comments on: Books: The Times gets religion</title>
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-323703</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>#18 KRM &lt;i&gt;Xion - I think you go too far here.&lt;/i&gt;

It wouldn&#039;t be the first time.  I agree with you.

I have no problem with people reading self-help books on their own time.  Go for it!  My problem is with ego stroking self-esteem books infiltrating the church and being called authentic Christianity.  Our help cometh from the Lord who made heaven and earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#18 KRM <i>Xion &#8211; I think you go too far here.</i></p>
<p>It wouldn&#8217;t be the first time.  I agree with you.</p>
<p>I have no problem with people reading self-help books on their own time.  Go for it!  My problem is with ego stroking self-esteem books infiltrating the church and being called authentic Christianity.  Our help cometh from the Lord who made heaven and earth.
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		<title>By: krm</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-323033</link>
		<dc:creator>krm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Xion - I think you go too far here.

It is true that the self-help book market is overly full of garbage.  But some of the books are both helpful and solid in content from a Scriptural standpoint.  A lot of people are benefitted by a good commentary, of topic exposition.  It is legitimate to look at many of the good Scripturally derived &#039;self-help&#039; books as topical expositions on how to practically implement Biblical directions. 

I haven&#039;t read the 5 Love Language so as to express any opinion on where it falls on the spectrum of &#039;garbage to good&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xion &#8211; I think you go too far here.</p>
<p>It is true that the self-help book market is overly full of garbage.  But some of the books are both helpful and solid in content from a Scriptural standpoint.  A lot of people are benefitted by a good commentary, of topic exposition.  It is legitimate to look at many of the good Scripturally derived &#8217;self-help&#8217; books as topical expositions on how to practically implement Biblical directions. </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read the 5 Love Language so as to express any opinion on where it falls on the spectrum of &#8216;garbage to good&#8217;.
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		<title>By: Pauline</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-322977</link>
		<dc:creator>Pauline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Xion,
It&#039;s been a couple years since I last read &lt;i&gt;The Five Love Languages&lt;/i&gt; (and I can&#039;t get it out right now because we&#039;re getting work done in the basement to take care of leaks, so we had to box up a lot of our books). If it gives the impression that its ideas are all that is needed for a good marriage, then it is deficient in that regard. 

The Bible, and books that help one understand the Bible&#039;s teaching on salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification, and the nature of love as exemplified by God and which we also are to show as the Spirit works in us, are needed in order to have a good Christian marriage. But they do not provide all the knowledge some people need, especially those who have grown up in homes where their parents were poor role models. I&#039;m pretty sure this book is not meant to stand on its own but on a Christian foundation.

I thought &lt;i&gt;What&#039;s So Amazing about Grace?&lt;/i&gt; was wonderful also!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xion,<br />
It&#8217;s been a couple years since I last read <i>The Five Love Languages</i> (and I can&#8217;t get it out right now because we&#8217;re getting work done in the basement to take care of leaks, so we had to box up a lot of our books). If it gives the impression that its ideas are all that is needed for a good marriage, then it is deficient in that regard. </p>
<p>The Bible, and books that help one understand the Bible&#8217;s teaching on salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification, and the nature of love as exemplified by God and which we also are to show as the Spirit works in us, are needed in order to have a good Christian marriage. But they do not provide all the knowledge some people need, especially those who have grown up in homes where their parents were poor role models. I&#8217;m pretty sure this book is not meant to stand on its own but on a Christian foundation.</p>
<p>I thought <i>What&#8217;s So Amazing about Grace?</i> was wonderful also!
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-322752</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Karen &lt;i&gt;&quot;I agree with most of what you wrote.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Well, I agree with all of what you wrote.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen <i>&#8220;I agree with most of what you wrote.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Well, I agree with all of what you wrote.  <img src='http://online.worldmag.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />
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		<title>By: Karen O</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-322653</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen O</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Xion - Thank you for your comments.  I agree with most of what you wrote.  

As I wrote in my comment above, &lt;i&gt;&quot;...a Christian marriage takes a combination of giving selflessly to the other, while sometimes (or even often) not expecting them to give back likewise.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;  That includes, as you mentioned, learning to be content.

I do question, however, the thought that one who needs (&quot;craves&quot; is maybe too strong a word) hugs or whatnot is selfish.  (Yes, I do agree that we can be selfish about wanting our needs met or wanting them to be fulfilled more often than we should.)

On one hand, I believe that we should humbly share our needs with our spouse, while trying our best to meet their needs.  On the other hand, I know that we need to recognize that no human, not even our &quot;other half&quot; of one flesh, can fully meet all our needs, only God can do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xion &#8211; Thank you for your comments.  I agree with most of what you wrote.  </p>
<p>As I wrote in my comment above, <i>&#8220;&#8230;a Christian marriage takes a combination of giving selflessly to the other, while sometimes (or even often) not expecting them to give back likewise.&#8221;</i>  That includes, as you mentioned, learning to be content.</p>
<p>I do question, however, the thought that one who needs (&#8221;craves&#8221; is maybe too strong a word) hugs or whatnot is selfish.  (Yes, I do agree that we can be selfish about wanting our needs met or wanting them to be fulfilled more often than we should.)</p>
<p>On one hand, I believe that we should humbly share our needs with our spouse, while trying our best to meet their needs.  On the other hand, I know that we need to recognize that no human, not even our &#8220;other half&#8221; of one flesh, can fully meet all our needs, only God can do that.
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-322553</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nicely stated Pauline and Karen.  Since you are the producer of these pearls, perhaps that makes me the sand in the oyster.

You both have the advantage of a Christian foundation.  From there, pretty much everything you read or experience or do can glorify God.  Nothing wrong with learning a few techniques along the way.  The sappiest book ever written changed my life.  It was called &lt;i&gt;What&#039;s So Amazing About Grace&lt;/i&gt;.

So a person with the right heart, can bear good fruit.  But just like the gospel without Christ becomes empty social mores, marriage techniques without Christ are unfulfilling.  Superficial actions without a changed heart look good on the outside, but inside are empty.

Is it good for a non-huggy husband to hug his hug-craving wife?  Sure.  But there is more going on here than a hug deficit.  There is sin.  Pride in one person holds back what the other person selfishly craves.  One should learn to give love while the other should learn contentment, but simply giving a hug doesn&#039;t address the larger issues.  This book oversimplifies the problem and the solution.

Life is about Christ and how we reflect his glory.  The problem with so many self-help books is that they are all about self.  The focus is on fulfilling selfish needs when those selfish needs are actually the root of the problem.  How about learning contentment and thankfulness?  Before changing others, how about changing yourself?

As Christians we should edify, i.e. build up one another, teach one another, challenge one another to walk in the Spirit and thereby bring forth the fruit of the Spirit.  That is the polar opposite of simply fulfilling needs, like getting the other person to do the laundry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicely stated Pauline and Karen.  Since you are the producer of these pearls, perhaps that makes me the sand in the oyster.</p>
<p>You both have the advantage of a Christian foundation.  From there, pretty much everything you read or experience or do can glorify God.  Nothing wrong with learning a few techniques along the way.  The sappiest book ever written changed my life.  It was called <i>What&#8217;s So Amazing About Grace</i>.</p>
<p>So a person with the right heart, can bear good fruit.  But just like the gospel without Christ becomes empty social mores, marriage techniques without Christ are unfulfilling.  Superficial actions without a changed heart look good on the outside, but inside are empty.</p>
<p>Is it good for a non-huggy husband to hug his hug-craving wife?  Sure.  But there is more going on here than a hug deficit.  There is sin.  Pride in one person holds back what the other person selfishly craves.  One should learn to give love while the other should learn contentment, but simply giving a hug doesn&#8217;t address the larger issues.  This book oversimplifies the problem and the solution.</p>
<p>Life is about Christ and how we reflect his glory.  The problem with so many self-help books is that they are all about self.  The focus is on fulfilling selfish needs when those selfish needs are actually the root of the problem.  How about learning contentment and thankfulness?  Before changing others, how about changing yourself?</p>
<p>As Christians we should edify, i.e. build up one another, teach one another, challenge one another to walk in the Spirit and thereby bring forth the fruit of the Spirit.  That is the polar opposite of simply fulfilling needs, like getting the other person to do the laundry.
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-322539</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>#11 Reg - By &#039;leaving out Christ&#039; I mean making him irrelevant.  Self-help books are just that.  They are man-centered, self-sufficient for building self-esteem.  His name is used in vain to boost the bottom line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#11 Reg &#8211; By &#8216;leaving out Christ&#8217; I mean making him irrelevant.  Self-help books are just that.  They are man-centered, self-sufficient for building self-esteem.  His name is used in vain to boost the bottom line.
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		<title>By: TJ</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-322196</link>
		<dc:creator>TJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 02:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>At least it&#039;s not Henri Nouwen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least it&#8217;s not Henri Nouwen.
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		<title>By: REG</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-322191</link>
		<dc:creator>REG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 02:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>2-

&quot;So can someone let us know whether these are actually evangelical books, or just syrupy sweet Christianesque books that leave out Christ?&quot;

Do the books leave out Christ in name or in behavior/example or both?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2-</p>
<p>&#8220;So can someone let us know whether these are actually evangelical books, or just syrupy sweet Christianesque books that leave out Christ?&#8221;</p>
<p>Do the books leave out Christ in name or in behavior/example or both?
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		<title>By: arcadia</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/07/19/books-the-times-gets-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-322181</link>
		<dc:creator>arcadia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 01:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A few excerpts from a devastating NYTimes essay on self-help books in todays Books Magazine. 

&lt;i&gt;At No. 7, One Month to Live: Thirty Days to a No-Regret Life, by Kerry and Chris Shook (WaterBrook, $19.99), is hard-core. For all the claims that self-help has been entirely Oprahfied &#8212; a group hug between hardcovers &#8212; our noblest self-help paradigms are still austere. The Shooks, the husband-and-wife team behind the wildly successful multi-site church Fellowship of the Woodlands, start brutally: &#8220;Your time on earth is limited.&#8221; Oof. I can hear the hoofbeats now.

No amount of subsequent encouragement about living passionately or like Jesus eased that solar-plexus blow, at least for me. Through instructions to love, keep a journal, write letters and make lists (the no-regrets life requires grueling paperwork), the Shooks&#8217; macabre bottom line stuck in my nut. It seemed rude, really, and at odds with the function of advice books, which is not to get real but rather to shore up the bereft. 

The truly bad news comes soon enough: &#8220;Satan knows the dream starts in your heart, so he&#8217;s committed to wounding your heart, taking it out of action and freezing your God-given dream with soul-numbing cold.&#8221; &lt;/i&gt;

______

&lt;i&gt;Become a Better You (Free Press, $25), at No. 4, sells mainly on the strength of its author&#8217;s name. Joel Osteen is a hit televangelist, veteran best seller and pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, reportedly the biggest church in the country. If he says shape up, you shape up, because he&#8217;s got the gleamingest pulpit.

Osteen opens by crediting Frank Lloyd Wright &#8212; whose favorite design, he said, was always &#8220;my next one&#8221; &#8212; with having become a better him. In Osteen&#8217;s metric, you don&#8217;t have to be brutally aware of your mortality or rich in omega-3s or pastel hues to succeed; you just have to be happy. What a relief!

 His seven keys to a better life restate that point (&#8220;stay passionate,&#8221; &#8220;be positive&#8221;), and by the end of the book I found myself smiling like a fool. Now that&#8217;s self-help. If your husband is a slob, don&#8217;t be a freak about it, but don&#8217;t spend hours doing yoga, either. Pick up his shoes and be cool. Bounty and love surround you both! He&#8217;s probably being cool about your issues, too.&lt;/i&gt;

________

&lt;i&gt;The time is ripe for a Deepak Chopra takedown &#8212; or definitive apotheosis &#8212; if only because with the book at No. 3, The Third Jesus: The Christ We Cannot Ignore (Harmony, $24), he has now published ...

Still, I don&#8217;t really get &#8220;The Third Jesus.&#8221; Even its title is a head-scratcher. With the first Jesus still pretty hazy to most people, the idea of a third one &#8212; an arbitrary concept of goodness that might be wrested from Christianity &#8212; is not even an interesting mystery. &#8220;One Jesus is historical, and we know next to nothing about him,&#8221; Chopra writes. &#8220;Another Jesus is the one appropriated by Christianity. He was created by the Church to fulfill its agenda. The third Jesus, the one this book is about, is as yet so unknown that even the most devout Christians don&#8217;t suspect that he exists.&#8221; Let me guess: Chopra knows. 

Trying to follow Chopra&#8217;s schema through decontextualized passages of Scripture, I resentfully wonder why this was classified as an advice book. There&#8217;s no &#8220;YOU,&#8221; only droning &#8220;we&#8221; stuff. (I guess this is what the listmakers mean by &#8220;miscellaneous.&#8221;) Chopra says we need to heed some newfangled, nothingburger Jesus straight out of Acme Spirituality Inc. What do you mean we, Mr. Deepak Chopra Man?&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few excerpts from a devastating NYTimes essay on self-help books in todays Books Magazine. </p>
<p><i>At No. 7, One Month to Live: Thirty Days to a No-Regret Life, by Kerry and Chris Shook (WaterBrook, $19.99), is hard-core. For all the claims that self-help has been entirely Oprahfied &#8212; a group hug between hardcovers &#8212; our noblest self-help paradigms are still austere. The Shooks, the husband-and-wife team behind the wildly successful multi-site church Fellowship of the Woodlands, start brutally: &#8220;Your time on earth is limited.&#8221; Oof. I can hear the hoofbeats now.</p>
<p>No amount of subsequent encouragement about living passionately or like Jesus eased that solar-plexus blow, at least for me. Through instructions to love, keep a journal, write letters and make lists (the no-regrets life requires grueling paperwork), the Shooks&#8217; macabre bottom line stuck in my nut. It seemed rude, really, and at odds with the function of advice books, which is not to get real but rather to shore up the bereft. </p>
<p>The truly bad news comes soon enough: &#8220;Satan knows the dream starts in your heart, so he&#8217;s committed to wounding your heart, taking it out of action and freezing your God-given dream with soul-numbing cold.&#8221; </i></p>
<p>______</p>
<p><i>Become a Better You (Free Press, $25), at No. 4, sells mainly on the strength of its author&#8217;s name. Joel Osteen is a hit televangelist, veteran best seller and pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, reportedly the biggest church in the country. If he says shape up, you shape up, because he&#8217;s got the gleamingest pulpit.</p>
<p>Osteen opens by crediting Frank Lloyd Wright &#8212; whose favorite design, he said, was always &#8220;my next one&#8221; &#8212; with having become a better him. In Osteen&#8217;s metric, you don&#8217;t have to be brutally aware of your mortality or rich in omega-3s or pastel hues to succeed; you just have to be happy. What a relief!</p>
<p> His seven keys to a better life restate that point (&#8220;stay passionate,&#8221; &#8220;be positive&#8221;), and by the end of the book I found myself smiling like a fool. Now that&#8217;s self-help. If your husband is a slob, don&#8217;t be a freak about it, but don&#8217;t spend hours doing yoga, either. Pick up his shoes and be cool. Bounty and love surround you both! He&#8217;s probably being cool about your issues, too.</i></p>
<p>________</p>
<p><i>The time is ripe for a Deepak Chopra takedown &#8212; or definitive apotheosis &#8212; if only because with the book at No. 3, The Third Jesus: The Christ We Cannot Ignore (Harmony, $24), he has now published &#8230;</p>
<p>Still, I don&#8217;t really get &#8220;The Third Jesus.&#8221; Even its title is a head-scratcher. With the first Jesus still pretty hazy to most people, the idea of a third one &#8212; an arbitrary concept of goodness that might be wrested from Christianity &#8212; is not even an interesting mystery. &#8220;One Jesus is historical, and we know next to nothing about him,&#8221; Chopra writes. &#8220;Another Jesus is the one appropriated by Christianity. He was created by the Church to fulfill its agenda. The third Jesus, the one this book is about, is as yet so unknown that even the most devout Christians don&#8217;t suspect that he exists.&#8221; Let me guess: Chopra knows. </p>
<p>Trying to follow Chopra&#8217;s schema through decontextualized passages of Scripture, I resentfully wonder why this was classified as an advice book. There&#8217;s no &#8220;YOU,&#8221; only droning &#8220;we&#8221; stuff. (I guess this is what the listmakers mean by &#8220;miscellaneous.&#8221;) Chopra says we need to heed some newfangled, nothingburger Jesus straight out of Acme Spirituality Inc. What do you mean we, Mr. Deepak Chopra Man?</i>
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