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Dobson, flip flopping?
Earlier this year, evangelical leader Dr. James Dobson said he could not in good conscience vote for John McCain in the upcoming election. But now? “I never thought I would hear myself saying this,” Dobson says in a radio broadcast to air Monday. “… While I am not endorsing Senator John McCain, the possibility is there that I might.”
“There’s nothing dishonorable in a person rethinking his or her positions, especially in a constantly changing political context,” Dobson said in a statement to the AP. “Barack Obama contradicts and threatens everything I believe about the institution of the family and what is best for the nation. His radical positions on life, marriage and national security force me to reevaluate the candidacy of our only other choice, John McCain.”
Dobson’s “flip flop” is indicative of the “lesser-of-two-evils” quandary many evangelicals are debating this election year. And with poll numbers indicating an already close race, support from evangelicals like Dobson may give McCain the boost he needs come November.
back to top108 Comments to “Dobson, flip flopping?”
What an interesting statement:
“There’s nothing dishonorable in a person rethinking his or her positions”
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Well the conservative position on McCain vs Obama can be summed up a couple different ways. The most humorous one I’ve seen is this one:
Better a third rate fireman, than a first class arsonist.
I loved the Thomas Sowell quote I saw the other day. I couldn’t find it again after I searched WMB, and it didn’t come up in a Google search, but it went something like this:
McCain can’t make me vote for him, but considering a presidential Obama might.
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Make it Man post 2,
which I do think sums up the campaign fairly nicely.
Those who favor Obama are very much in support of him and it appears that a signficant portion of support for McCain is out of concern for the alternative:
Poll: McCain’s backers less fired up than Obama’s
This makes for a very interesting and unusual campaign moving forward. The donations and volutneer support/number of field offices seem to support these observations.
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It is not good for public figures to let themselves be pulled into positive or negative voting or endorsement commitments so early in the game. Unforeseen circumstances can arise and often do. Maybe it lets off steam but we can pay for that release later. When I first heard about Dobson saying what he said about not voting for McCain, I knew that his enemies were taking careful notes and shoring up their memories to make him pay later.
I like Dobson and I respect his convictions and his right now to change of heart and mind on a voting option, but my criticism remains that he should not have cornered himself on McCain so early in the first place. I disliked the McCain option too (and said so) but never committed myself either way at on any ballot.
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Joel Mark post 4,
but I think you misunderstand my observation.
I agree:
“There’s nothing dishonorable in a person rethinking his or her positions”
I am not challenging Dobson.
I am challenging Obama’s opponents who make arguments that Obama is flip-flopping.
I will go further and note that Obama in general is emphasizing different aspects of complex positions, but if certain people insist that this is flip-flopping, then it is probably not worth arguing since in their eyes it is flip-flopping.
But Dobson provides a nice discussion of why flip-flopping is not an issue.
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Obama and McCain
Thomas Sowell from Jewish World Review
Thursday, June 05, 2008
LET THE VOTER BEWARE The CHOICE BETWEEN HIM AND BARACK OBAMA SHOULD BE A NO-BRAINER!! (Please do pray, and vote “properly”!! -my comments!!)
[Note from editor: The comment above has been edited and a link has been added. It is a violation of copyright law to post work such as this without permission.]
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I think you’re right, Musing, in #3.
Someone asked me on this blog a couple weeks ago what type of candidate I would be excited about voting for–and I’ve been thinking about that question ever since.
I don’t know if anyone cares, but I don’t need the president to be a Christian–I just need him/her to make decisions with Ten Commandment values and with an understanding of and respect for the Constitution.
I like conservative judges, so the candidate’s indicators for the Supreme Court should be conservative. And of course, for me, the candidate needs to be pro-life.
I’d like a candidate who will enforce the laws on the books and stop looking for reasons to tweak things. I’d like a pragmatist who understands economic theory and doesn’t think raising taxes is the only way to solve problems.
I’d like a president who is married, has kids and a sense of humor–because this indicates he/she would know how to get along with all those nefarious characters governing other nations. International experience and/or understanding would be important and I’d probably be impressed by a president who is bi/tri/quad-lingual. As long as that president understood the nuance of international relations and cooperation.
And I always love a former military officer–though that wasn’t true in Kerry’s case.
For that reason, a governor probably is the best choice–someone who has dealt with politics on a more local level; and an international businessman. My word, does this mean Romney should have been my choice? !
Too bad, as an independent, I voted in the Democratic primary in California!
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Good comments, Joel. It’s funny to see Musing accuse you of misunderstanding his position, when you weren’t even responding to his post in the first place!
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outkast post 8,
and you challenge any of my observatons?
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Of course Obama’s supporters are more ‘fired-up’.
They are, after all, the same television-lobotimized morons who go to rock concerts and pee on themselves in excitement when brainless baboons dressed in sequins and leather jump around on the stage and pick their noses.
So enthusiasm for whatever the media tells them to be enthused about comes quite naturally to them. In this sense, they are indeed well trained, like seals in a zoo.
They have been carefully prepared for the moment by the powers that be, through years of intensive programming via television and mindless entertainment – from brain-killing highly politicized cartoons featuring cute little cartoon critters with Marxist-Leninist views, when they lay drooling and blank-eyed in cradles as infants, to the present, when they lie drooling and blank-eyed on sofas as ‘adults’, watching late-night shows, sucking on their out-sized pacifiers, provided free-of-charge by the Democratic National Committee and the Associated Prostitutes, I mean Press.
Yep, Obama’s army. Why these ‘Americans for change’ with their trousers buckled around their knees and their buttocks hanging out like palsied cantalopes and various metal objects stuck in their tongues and their blood-shot eyes bugged out from too much Oprah and drugs – who think that Robert Lee is a brand of doughnut, that Atlanta is a state, and who cannot count to ten without a cheat sheet – they are poised to pick up the mantle of the Republic.
So Dobson, not being impressed for some reason with this vision of glory, might endorse McCain anyway, because, as Make It Man points out, a third-rate fireman is better than a first-class arsonist, which is a pretty good way to put it. Make It Man, as usual, sums things up pretty nicely.
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Before reading the post (but after reading the title) I thought: “If he were a Democrat, the answer would be a gleeful, unqualified ‘Yes’!”
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Thanks for the article DAD. Sowell is smart.
It’s a tough decision, but I agree with Rush. “We can’t afford Obama!”
Besides, McCain loves America. Whatever else you say about him, he loves his country.
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Dobson will eventually back McCain.
He will not vote for a Marxist.
He should have never shot his mouth off – he was just upset a real conservative. Christian family values man didn’t the Republican nomination.
Dobson voting for anyone but McCain would be like him voting for Satan over Jesus at crunch time.
Dobson isn’t the only one who will eat crow over this. They all know eating crow is way better than having a socialist take your crow away and give it to someone else while telling you to not be so evil and to learn to like eating feces instead.
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Amen, Chas! McCain has loved and stood up for his country in every way you can and still be alive. Bless him.
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What’s new? Dobson’s pulled this same stunt pretty much every election since 1992, at least. The script is always the same. The GOP is just giving lip service to our values, they don’t really mean it, and I’m GIVING SERIOUS CONSIDERATION to encouraging Christians to vote third party or stay home, because I cannot in good conscience endorse the GOP candidate.
Then, a few months later, it’s you know, I’ve wrestled with my conscience, and had a heart to heart conversation with the Lord, and I’m convinced that not supporting the GOP candidate is the wrong thing to do. The stakes are simply too high, and Christians must get behind the GOP candidate before the Dem get elected and outlaws heterosexual marriage and turns the country over to the terrorists and the ACLU.
Then, a year or two after the election, he’s screaming that the GOP candidate “has betrayed us” and vowing that “we’re not going to get fooled again.”
It’s a really old act, and it’s pretty tired by now. But it keeps Dobson’s name in the papers.
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When the top 300 Marxists and Socialists in America are traveling with Obama on his World wide tour with the MSM as the DNC’s mouthpiece and their slave masters of the worldwide left all turn out to crown their new messiah and pee all over themselves at the same time – a little red flag should go off in your head that they will soon have you in bondage, bent over a sofa and peeing all over you – as they blame you for it.
Americans do not like foreigners telling us what is right and wrong and what to do – since they have always been as wrong on everything as their slaves in the the USA that they control have been.
The more they fawn over Obama on this trip and the more haughty this elitists acts even as a group – the farther Obama will fall behind. Can’t wait to hear his German and French he is so fond of, after Spanish of course. Elglish is way down the list.
We have never wanted to follow their lead in anything. They have always followed our lead in everything and now is not the time to change -that or anything else.
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So here’s another summation of the situation…
If Clinton was our first “Black” president, is Obama gonna be our next “European” president?
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sorry wrong thread.
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Night Train (15),
Yup, you beat me to the punch.
I remember at least two times that, early on in the election season, Dobson fussed & fumed (and rightly so) about how the GOP courted religious conservatives, only to abandon them once they got into power. “Christians need to look somewhere other than the Republican party.” But then come election time, he was right there saying we can’t afford for the Democrat to get in.
I even remember at least one time where Dobson said he would run as a third-party candidate himself.
But then, “To much as at stake this time — we can’t afford to go looking at a third party.”
Well guess what? Our “conservative Christian leaders” have insisted that “too much” has been “at stake” for the last 5 presidential elections.
Keep voting the way you do, you’ll keep getting the results you’ve been getting.
Chuck Baldwin 2008 — You DO have a choice!
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Dobson should write a book:
THE POLL-DRIVEN GOD
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Every couple of weeks he can go back into his study and ask his god what he should do…
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from the Jewish World Review…The point when they get that bomb will be the point of no return. Iran ’s nuclear bomb will be the terrorists’ nuclear bomb– and they can make 9/11 look like child’s play. All the options that are on the table right now will be swept off the table forever. Our choices will be to give in to whatever the terrorists demand– however outrageous those demands might be– or to risk seeing American cities start disappearing in radioactive mushroom clouds.
These people are just stark raving nuts. The authors, not the Iranians.
The great inferno he is speaking of has NOTHING to do with the US. It is Israel, an artificial state, a NUCLEAR ARMED artificial state I might add, which he envisions disappearing in a mushroom cloud.
Yet somehow, by carefully inserting 9/11 and “American Cities” he seeks to govern by fear.
What else is new?
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I wonder if the announcement that McCain and Obama will appear at a Rick Warren forum cuts the knees out from Dobson’s newest revelation?
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There seems to be a religious like adherence to maintaining one’s position in US politics or risk be called a flip flopper. The right’s ceaseless accusations against John Kerry probably etched this into the landscape. However, people should favour those who modify their positions to suit new facts. Stubbornness is not always the right quality — adaptability is usually better.
The above is a general comment, in terms of Dobson; he’s getting close to an old man waving his arms demanding attention because he still has something important to say. Really, he’s not voting Democratic what a shock.
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So Focus on the Family is snubbing the candidate who apparently has a model home and family, and will be endorsing the candidate who repeatedly cheated on and finally left his faithful, injured, wife and children to marry a younger, richer woman. The candidate who has an uncontrollable, explosive temper. The candidate who jokes about a 17 year old girl being ugly because she’s the product of a lesbian relationship and about women enjoying being raped by gorillas. The candidate who publicly called his wife a c**t and a trollop because she joked about his thinning hair.
Am I missing something?
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When speaking about the election, Dr. Dobson speaks for himself, public figure or not.
I’ve observed a WHOLE lot of posters on this blog change their minds after saying all sorts of things, then saying “I’d have to hold my nose to vote for McCain” and NOW, yep that’s who their voting for, they are not holding their nose, they are making CLEAR their vote is for McCain.
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Drill & Llama:
Congratulations, you have both just written the two most impossible to parody posts I’ve seen in a good long while. I mean, this stuff would be too unbelievable even for Stephen Colbert.
With spokesmen like these, does the Republican party even have to wonder why it has trouble attracting youth votes? You guys put out that bitter old man vibe really well. “You kids get off my lawn!”
I’m sure McCain does love America. But so does Barack Obama. And so does my neighbor a couple houses down, but I wouldn’t trust the guy to run a hot dog stand, let alone a country.
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But you’d trust Obama to run the country, who, not only has even less experience than McCain, but would actively seek to socialize the country? And that Socialism has repeatedly been proven NOT to work?
Incredible….
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“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” RW Emerson
In other words, foolishly sticking with a bad position is worse than changing that position.
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I don’t think he does. Dobson is not blind to the large sway he has over people who listen to his program and receive his literature.
I’ll say it as a general rule: one cannot speak solely for oneself on one’s nationally broadcast radio show.
But even if he were speaking only for himself, what happened to the Republican’s huge “character counts” drive of the late Clinton years? What happened to the idea (which I remember hearing word for word) that what a man does to his wife he would do to his country? Where is that righteous indignation over marital infidelity? Over moral crassness?
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I trust Obama’s judgment over McCain’s experience. He voted against the Iraq war when it was popular to vote for it, his idea to set a 16-month timetable for withdrawal — criticized by Bush and McCain — was just this weekend approved by Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki, his idea that we should be negotiating with Iran — criticized by Bush and McCain — the administration has now started doing.
So I will grant that McCain has more years of experience in the Senate, but I think Obama’s judgment sufficiently superior to outweigh that advantage.
As for Obama “socializing the country,” let’s dispense with the loaded term and talk specifics. Obama was national health care. Is this a failed policy? America’s health care system, under years of Republican control, is awful. Europe’s is far better. Their health care system has not been “proven not to work.” Our health care system, on the other hand, has.
Can you point to some specific policy of Obama’s that has been proven not to work?
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continuation of #30:
Where are the Republicans who were up in arms because Bill Clinton revealing on national TV that he wore boxers instead of briefs was crass and unpresidential? What are they doing with their candidate who has joked about women enjoying rape, who has publicly called his wife foul names, and who drops the f-bomb on the Senate floor with an easiness that has distanced his colleagues?
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his idea to set a 16-month timetable for withdrawal — criticized by Bush and McCain — was just this weekend approved by Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki,
When did you make that up, JJF?
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Outkast, the link is right there in my post. To Fox News, even, so you hard-right-wingers couldn’t dismiss my source as liberal pansie leftist socialist lies like… well… everything except Fox News, apparently.
But here, I’ll save you a click:
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JJF,
Obama voted against the war because he knew he was going to run for the Democratic nomination for president and he knew Hillary was going to vote for the war. He wanted to take full advantage of the money flowing from the whack job, anti War, ultra lefty crowd and he wanted to be opposite from Hillary on this issue. He knew to get the nomination he would have to be anti Iraq War.
He knew that if the war turned out favorable later , as it has with the surge, the left would still be for him no matter what, the money would still flow to him after the nomination as it has. He knew that he could aways move to the center to get the non whack job independent vote and no one on the left would call him on it by withholding money – which they haven’t. They just scolded him but we know to never pay attention to what a lefty says. Watch what they do instead – the money is flowing like wine.
Hillary forgot this fact and she lost the nomination. Now it is only the sane independent folks that can keep this Marxist from becoming President – if the right can hold its base and coalition together.
Supposed Christians on the right, including Obama, are trying their best to fool the weak mined Christian Right to not vote for McCain. We have seen this nearly every day on WMB. Pay no attention to them – they are socialists lefties working for something else besides you or your best interests.
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As the election draws nearer, I think a lot of people will be changing their minds about voting for McCain. I may find myself among that number.
Frank- Interesting link. Why is it I had to follow several links to find that Baldwin is running on the Constitution Party? Probably Baldwin and Barr will split the far right vote, taking votes from McCain. McCain won’t get enough of the moderate and independent votes to hold off the Obama “orgasm” the media seems to be convincing us all we are needing.
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JJF: Well, you topped us, you really did, old sport.
You say “So Focus on the Family is snubbing the candidate who apparently has a model home and family” and wonder why FOF is not supporting such a saint?
I am a positive type of person, so I initially assumed that maybe your entire post was just one long incredibly unlikely typo, perhaps because your tongue jewelry get tangled up in your nose hairs causing you to get discombulated such that your fingers got into a REALLY wierd and bizaare position on the keyboard, which kind of thing seems to happen to Obama supporters alot.
Anyway, just in case you were actually SERIOUS, let me BRIEFLY review Obama’s qualifications for a FOF endorsement:
1. Obama enthusiastically supports abortion, including the quaintly named procedure kwown as ‘partial birth abortion’ in which a healthy full-term baby is delivered, then killed with a jab into the brain, followed by a quick and bloody sawing up of the corpse and disposal in the ol’ chute. In fact, Obama has even gone further (can you believe it?) in blocking laws which would mandate care for infants born alive in ‘botched’ abortions. He is known (by friend and foe alike) as the most pro-abort candidate ever. He is owned lock, stock, and barrel by the abortion industry.
2. Obama went to a ‘church’ (and supported it whole-heartedly) led by a racism-spewing hatred-spreading anti-American ‘minister’ who makes the Phelps ‘church’ look like a Girl Scout organization for TWENTY years; this individual was Obama’s acknowledged political and spiritual mentor – preaching a message of hate and intolerance and virulent venomous racism.
3. Obama has consistently maligned and belittled Americans of faith (Christians), oozing contempt and malignant hatred whenever he is caught unscripted.
4. Obama claims that there are many ways to God, thus stating that Jesus Christ is a liar and a fraud. Last I heard, FOF is a CHRISTIAN organization, JJF.
Need I go on?
But you ask why FOF would not endorse this travesty.
Presumably you are making a joke? Or WAS it really just a typo? A REALLY REALLY long typo?
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Or perhaps you confused Focus on the Family with the Association of Cop Killing Radical Marxists? If so, you are right in thinking that Obama would be a natural for an endorsement from the latter organization since some of his best friends and supporters are card-carrying members of that honorable organization. Oops. I meant FORMER friends and supporters – Obama has, well, shall we say ‘changed’ his tune in the past few months. Ah. Change. Most audacious of him. And hope.
I think I will go cling to my gun and my Bible, now, for a while. I’m feeling bitter that the government don’t do more for me, JJF. Or is that TO me?
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It wasn’t “approved” by the Prime Minister or the government of Iraq, JJF. He simply liked the idea at first listen (although he clarified that statement you offered later that weekend).
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Drill:
I trim my nose hairs regularly just so my tongue-to-eyebrow chain doesn’t get tangled in it, so we can rule out the elaborate typo theory. Maybe the error is on your end. Check your suspender straps — are they putting too much pressure on your pacemaker again? Those hot red flashes might be more than just rage at them librul yungens, you know.
I’ll take a minute from the activities that Llama caught me at — reading The Communist Manifesto while plotting how I might trick the Christian Right into voting against God’s Own Candidate — to answer you.
I do not suggest that FotF should endorse Barack Obama, but I do suggest that they should not endorse John McCain. Furthermore, I suggest that they, and the both of you, are hypocritical in supporting the man less than ten years after howling to high heaven about Clinton’s sins, which seem minor by comparison.
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Outkast:
Allow me to point out Fox News’ headline:
Maliki: I Support Obama’s Withdrawal Timetable
And something else from the Fox News article:
But he seemed to refer disparagingly to McCain when he said “short time periods” in Iraq are more “realistic,” while “artificially prolonging the tenure of U.S. troops in Iraq would cause problems.”
And an unnamed prominent Republican strategist apparently thought it a big deal:
Thanks for proving my point with links, JJF. The PM “supported” but not give final approval to BHO’s plan.
I notice you provided no names of the so-called “prominent” GOP strategists.
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Was that your point? I think you’re making a distinction without a difference. John McCain and President Bush criticized Obama’s 16 month timetable for withdrawal as naive, not understanding the reality on the ground, etc. President Maliki, the Prime Minister of Iraq supported/approved it. Which verb you prefer does not change the fact that Maliki’s support/approval makes the Bush/McCain criticism ring hollow.
I give no name because The Atlantic gave no name. Probably they don’t want to rat out a source — it would get somebody fired and cut their future access.
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Those 16 months for Obama started 15 months ago, in April of 2007. BHO keeps changing the dates, just like he changes his views on all the issues. A candidate of change, that he is!
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Actually, JJF, my pacemaker DOES get out of whack when I read manure, so you aren’t improving my health, if you get my drift.
The last time I checked, McCain was not diddling interns in the Oval Office, or entertaining hookers in the Lincoln bedroom; if he ever does, however I will be properly irritated, I can assure you of that.
I did not exactly like Clinton, but it was not because of his activities with the ladies in the White House (and maybe the potted plants or whatever else caught his ever-roving eyes); it was more because he attempted to move the country leftward rapidly – he was largely stymied by a Republican congress which just barely did its job anyway.
Your rather infantile comparisons of Clintons White House affairs with McCain’s divorce hold about as much water as a sieve. Ronald Reagan was also divorced; presumably, however unfortunate and undesirable that is, Reagan would still be endorsed by FOF.
If FOF endorses McCain, they will not be endorsing his divorce. They will be endorsing his positions on important family-related issues.
You quite plainly stated that you were ‘missing something’ because FOF was snubbing Obama in terms of the endorsement.
Indeed. Perhaps you ARE missing something.
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Yet when Dobson dismissed him, he did so on his positions and on personal issues. In fact, he specifically mentioned McCain’s divorce:
And again in 2008, Dobson mentioned both policy and personal issues:
What I am missing is what happened to the conservative conscious that demanded politicians with character? How could FotF and other religious conservatives even consider endorsing McCain, given their long-held stance on the paramount importance of character and integrity?
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When you compare McCain’s character and integrity with that of Obama, JJF. it’s obvious that McCain (as bad as he has been) stands head and shoulders above Obama.
Or do you think conservatives should TOTALLY ignore their principles and vote for the GREATER of two evils?
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outkast post 33,
the following might assist you:
Der Spiegel interview
Independent translation of the tape from the Der Spiegel interview
AP Analysis of events
and yup – it is pretty clear that Al Maliki did endorse Obama’s plan. Just as Bush accepted its basic principals on Friday.
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outkast post 33,
I suspect an apology to JJF might be in order: his point on Al Maliki’s endorsement of Obama’s plan is now well corroborated.
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JJF: For your information, the man John McCain HAS character and integrity, in spades, more than you or all the Democrat operatives in and out of D.C. could ever imagine or dream of (or have nightmares about). He proved it for five years in Hanoi, going through Hell.
McCain is a former NAVY fighter pilot and having been around and worked with these guys for many years, I am not surprised his language can be salty.
I think (based on what I have read) that he was wrong in his divorce, however he, like Reagan – or Obama, must be measured in totality.
Like Dobson, I am disappointed in a number of things that McCain has supported or has not supported, however, I am convinced that he is a Christian (like many of us, misguided and imperfect) and, even if he is not, his values and morals and integrity and well-proven love for his country will make him acceptable as President of the United States. He will not intentionally do anything to hurt the US.
I cannot say the same thing about Obama, who is on record as speaking of the US and the American people with extreme contempt, and who has a strong Marxist-Leninist-radical background and record. And has stated the goal of further moving America toward socialism, and tyranny.
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How so? What lack of character has Barack Obama displayed?
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For one, JJF, Obama supports the butchering of just-born infants (partial birth abortion).
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For two, JJF, McCain served honorably as a POW during the Vietnam War. Obama has not (and McCain has this even over President Bush).
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And for three, all of Obama’s poll-driven flip-flops show him to be not worthy (character-wise) to be President.
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Outkast
53 and 54 are really weak. A lot of people served honorably as POW’s during war and that may or may not speak to their character and certainly says nothing about how time in a POW camp may have affected them, later in life.
as to 54, it’s a bad idea to compare the major parties’ candidates flip-flops, McCain doesn’t stack up so well in that comparison.
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Dobson can vote for McCain for whatever reason.
What amazes me is how people who cannot point to one piece of legislation from Obama can vote for him, yet those same people dissed Bush eight years ago for having no record even though he had run the State of Texas, quite effectively, I might add. Obama has accomplished absolutely nothing, no one asks him what “change” means, or how he will accomplish it. They just don’t want to know. What’s that about one being born every minute?
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I disagree, CB. The fact that McCain served honorably while being tortured in Vietnam does indeed indicate much more character than someone who did not even serve. It may not indicate character in other former POWs, but it certainly does do so in McCain’s case.
As for flip-flops, McCain’s are much like Romney’s: Each candidate “flipped” over to a more conservative stand on certain issues, but there is no indication (as yet, anyway) that they have “flopped” back over to their previous position. Obama is all over the map in this regard, depending on which group of voters he’s talking to at the time.
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But Obama has something like 154 days of experience in the U.S. Senate, NJL!
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143 days. The thing that surprises me about Obama is even my Democratic-party-fund raiser relative doesn’t think he’s experienced enough. Of course she’ll still vote for him, because he’s so wedded to . . . tada . . . abortion rights!
I turn off Focus on the Family when they start talking about politics.
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Outkast:
I’ll start with the easier ones.
Lack of military service or POW status is not a character flaw.
I’m not aware of many Obama changes, but on at least one serious issues — reauthorizing the new FISA bill with telecom immunity intact despite a promise to support any filibuster of it — he gives me serious pause.
But McCain has flipped on so many more issues: the role of the religious right, torture, immigration. The guy won’t even vote for the immigration bill that he wrote. If you’re going to hold “flip-flopping” as a character flaw, your boy has got bigger problems than Obama.
Now to the first one:
This is a very serious moral issue, but not a character flaw. To see what I mean, let’s use an analogy. Let’s say I’m a strict vegan, because I’m sure that animals are people, too. I might say, “Outkast’s chief character flaw is that he supports butchering people and devouring their flesh.” But I would be wrong in such a criticism, even if we later found out that animals are, beyond any shadow of a doubt, people and you have all along been butchering people and devouring their flesh. You committed your heinous crime in ignorance, so your eating meat was not itself a character flaw. Your ignorance, especially if the personhood of animals was fairly obvious or if the ignorance was willful, may have been a character flaw, but the meat eating itself stemmed from incomplete understanding, not from insufficient virtue.
It’s the same with Obama’s position on abortion. A desire to butcher babies would certainly be a serious character flaw. But Obama does not think that he is supporting the butchering of babies. He thinks he is supporting the removal of human tissue from afflicted women.
We both believe that Obama is wrong on that count, and you would be justified in voting against Obama because of his stance on a serious moral issue. But you would be wrong to accuse him of a desire to butcher babies. The greatest character flaw you could indict him on would be willful ignorance.
For myself, I have seen how election year after election year, the Republicans bloviate and pontificate about abortion, but once they’re elected, they do not a damn thing. There is no candidate who can make any meaningful difference on the abortion front. But there is a candidate who can make a meaningful difference on the war front, and the two are equivalent moral issues in my mind.
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Look, the bottom line is that McCain has an “R” next to his name. And that’s why Dobbie and his minions will vote for him. It wouldn’t matter if Christ himself had a “D” next to his name. Dobbie & Friend would still vote for the guy/gal with an “R” next to their name. Same thing with the vast majority of Worldmag bloggers. Obama has a “D” next to his name so he’s Evil Incarnate in their minds.
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As long as the Republican Party supports conservative stands on the most important issues better than the Democrat Party does, Anlir, yes we’ll continue to tend to support candidates with an “R” after their name.
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Anlir writes: “It wouldn’t matter if Christ himself had a “D” next to his name.”
This shows just how little understanding you have of Jesus Christ. If you knew Him, if you read through the New Testament even once, you would know there would be no political party designation next to his name.
Obama isn’t evil incarnate, he’s just not seasoned and not capable. He goes beyond on the job training.
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#61 Anlir:
And there’s no one around who reflexively votes for the “D” next to anyone’s name?
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This shows just how little understanding you have of Jesus Christ. If you knew Him, if you read through the New Testament even once, you would know there would be no political party designation next to his name.
Silly me! I forget that conservative Christians take everything literally and have zero capacity (or tolerance) for sarcasm.
I must remember to talk in simpler terms on Worldmag.
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JJF says that Obama is (at worse) willfully ignorant about what abortion really is. Willful ignorance? So, that would be saying that Obama is so incredibly stupid that he does not know or care what an abortion actually is, i.e. (for instance) partial birth abortion, and yet he crafts strategies to block bills to EVEN regulate the procedure when it is ‘botched’ and the full-term baby outlives the first attempts to kill her? That somehow he has managed to avoid comprehending up to the age of 48 or whatever he is, what an abortion is?
So, let’s say he WAS actually that stupid.
Then he would be too stupid to be dog-catcher, much less POTUS.
The thing is he is NOT that stupid at all. He is a ’smart’ guy – determined to pander to whatever group, no matter how despicable, to advance his ambitions. Normally, that would be small beans except for a relatively small chunk of the electorate in whatever benighted section of the country would elect him to some minor office.
But on the slim reed of his media-stoked ambition, his amorality (NOT willfully ignorant at all) and his extreme left-wing passion, the media and the Democratic machine has manufactured a sort of caricature of a candidate which they carefully guard.
And, oh yeah, Anlir. Sure, you can be a pro-abort Christian. Just like you can be a pro-war pacifist. Or a steak-eating vegetarian. Or a flat earth expounding cosmologist. Or produce a great work of literature while lying in bed in a deep coma.
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LOL, Drill!
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DAD: Please note that your comment from this morning (No. 6) has been edited. In the future, please do not post complete, copyrighted material to this site. A link and a short excerpt is acceptable. Thank you.
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Are you suggesting, Drill, that Obama understands that abortion is the murder of a human being but he supports it anyway for political reasons?
Doesn’t that seem rather far-fetched to you?
Despite your tediously glib tone, “what an abortion is” is clearly not so obvious as you would have us believe. At least, it’s non-obvious enough that 60% of Americans think it should be legal. Do you believe that 60% of Americans would knowingly support murder? Is it not more likely that 58% of Americans do not think abortion is the murder of a human being (and only 2% — the Peter Singers of the world — think it murder but OK anyway)?
Drill, I personally know some pro-abortion Christians. They do not believe the fetus is a human being, so they see nothing wrong with destroying it. I strenuously disagree with them, but I would not suggest that they don’t know Christ because of their belief.
In the history of the world, there have been Christian Crusaders, Christian Indian-killers, Christian slave-traders, Christian racists, Christian abortion-supporters, and Christian warmongers. Unfortunately, being a Christian does not inoculate one against woefully unChristian beliefs. I suggest WORLD’s take on aggressive wars would be very different if it did. I think you hold a deeply and fundamentally unChristian perspective on war, but I would not suggest that you cannot know Christ because of it.
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Fascinating.
But I suggest fiddling while rome is burning.
If the best that Dobson can do is suggest that he might “holding his nose” vote for McCain, what does this say about where the campaing is going.
I have asked outkast to tell me how being a POW results in special training for being president: outkast apparently did not have nay answer here.
JJF has addressed the character issue nicely.
Do you really want to go there with flip-flopping? That is what started this thread!
The Iraq issue seems to be on the way to being either a draw or an Obama win.
McCain on the econommy?
McCain has a slight edge in the off shore drilling, but I suggest T Boone Picken’s ads will negate this: “We can’t drill our way out of this crisis”
McCain is raising money at half the rate Obama is raising it.
Lets see, Obama seems to have the edge in health care.
And the Republican base can only say that they will choose McCain over Obama. Oh, I had forgotten: McCain is not a true conservative. Isn’t that what was said in the primaries?
At the end of the day there is one unusual bright spot for McCain in the polls. Does McCain want to win on that platform?
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Whereas, Dobbie & Friends are going to hold their noses while voting for McCain.
Whereas, 85% of the American people think the country is on the wrong track.
Whereas, Washington has been run primarily by the Republicans for the last 8 years.
Whereas, there are multitudes of economic problems which the American people are looking for new solutions to.
Whereas, the war in Iraq remains wholely unpopular with the vast majority of Americans.
Whereas, a culture of corruption has seeped into the Republican party over the last 8 years.
Whereas, there is a brewing split between the old guard and the new guard in the most reliable Republican Party constituency (conservative Christians).
Whereas, the Republican Party has succeeded in alienating blacks and Latinos.
Whereas, there is a huge swell of enthusiasm and optimism among Democrats.
Whereas, people will ask themselves on November 4th “Am I better off now than I was 4 years ago”, and answer in the negative.
Whereas, people generally grow weary after 8 years of one party occupying the White House.
Whereas, the American people hold the person who’s been in the White House responsible for the direction of the country.
Whereas, the Democrats are generally seen as the party of “change”.
I’d say the Republicans are headed for the “Perfect Storm” on November 4th.
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Anlir post 71,
I think I disagree.
There is clearly wind in the Democratic sails.
But indications are that this is going to be hand to hand combat for every vote in every state.
And any serious error cold tank either candidate.
But I think it fair to say that there is reason for guarded optimism.
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Musing,
I rarely have optimism, and I continually preach on here that it will be a real miracle if Obama is elected. And, as I said on another blog, we have yet to see the awesome and terrible power of the dark side of the force unleashed on Obama.
Never-the-less, I do get a sense that the Republican ship is sailing into a storm of great magnitude, to which they are being willfully stubborn about. We see the bravado on display here every day.
To be certain, a lot can happen in the next few month. We don’t know what bombshell or slip-up awaits either candidate.
I think the electoral vote will be very close, but the popular vote won’t.
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By criticizing Clinton’s moral failings and Kerry’s flip flops, the Republicans have created a job description that they can’t fill themselves.
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#74: Spoken by a true non-American socialist . . .
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HRW, what would you know? you don’t live here. I thought you loved socialism, aren’t you happy yet? do you want everyone to sit in the same boat you can’t paddle everyday?
Do you want company, is that what’s bothering you?
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Outkast and Victoria:
This isn’t a gradeschool playground. Your mean-spirited and childish remarks are entirely out of line. HRW’s comment has nothing to do with socialism, his residency does not effect in the least the validity of his point, and his tone was entirely civil.
Grow up.
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I grew up a long time ago, JJF, and I’m intelligent to remember that HRW is a Canadian socialist who is PROUD of that label (both socialist and Canadian). It’s part of his worldview, which is reflected in the way HRW thinks about everything. If you think his comment has nothing to do with socialism, you are entirely incorrect.
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outkast post 78,
and these coments provide either new information to the discusison or news ways to think of the material how?
We are seeing McCain flipfloping on Iraqi horizons, and this is a substantiuve change.
It will be hard to argue moving forward that changing ones position as events on the ground change is inappropriate.
And as I keep noting: next election topic anyone.
Energy: the T. Boone Pickens ad is interesting.
Economy: Republican refusal to provide support for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is interesting? How about the eight year anemic job numbers?
Ah yes it is going ot be an interesting time moving forward.
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You have to love this:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/22/obama.mideast/index.html
And if Obama can forge a consensus in a divided U.S. on something as controversial as Iraq, what is there that Obama will not be able to achieve a consensus on?
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Unlike James Dobson (possibly), I will not flip-flop. I cannot in good conscience vote for McCain.
I will either write in Alan Keyes or vote for Bob Barr. Will anyone else join me?
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Yes Kyle.
I’ve already agreed in my heart with you on voting for what we feel is right. I also agree with Frank in Phoenix ( a most astute brother in Christ) that my vote will go to Chuck Baldwin. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how that many people support Barack HUSSEIN Obama with a clear conscience.
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These continuing personal attacks by Vicky and Outkast on HRW because he doesn’t live in the United States are childish, immature, and a violation of Worldmag’s terms of use.
It’s Worldmag, not USmag!
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Right Anlir. HRW has (I think) repeatedly mentioned that he is not American and is a committed (no pun intended) Socialist. Those facts are relevant and important to his views and to understanding his views, here and elsewhere.
Personally, I don’t care too much WHAT he thinks about Doctor Dobson – any more than he probably cares (or would care) what I think about a Canadian equivalent.
That is our domestic business – his viewpoint is skewed and to be honest I could not care less what the Canadian far-Left-wing thinks about my politics. They (and the Left in general) have a hideous track record on every front except generating propaganda, anyway.
We will be voting for an AMERICAN president this time around – not Left-Wing Dictator of the North American Region. That will come later, I think, if you and comrades and fellow-travelers world-wide, like HRW, succeed.
I read HRW’s posts generally and learn his viewpoint from them but still appreciate being reminded that he is NOT a US citizen and has a particularly left-wing political/cultural stance on all issues. I doubt seriously if he cares a whit if Victoria and Outkast mentions those relevant characteristics in a relevant discussion.
Heck, from reading his posts, he is indeed proud of his Canadian background (I would be too) and his Socialism (I would not be), and is quite open and honest about lauding them.
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I suggest for consideration that the personally based comments we see at intervals from outkast and victoria would perhaps suggest a lack of substantive argument to present.
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They (and the Left in general) have a hideous track record on every front except generating propaganda, anyway.
Considering economics, health care and quality of life, our track record is doing well.
Outkast and Victoria – Huh? The Republicans have difficulty measuring up to the standards they created with their criticism of Clinton, Kerry, and Obama. I’m noting the irony. As for where I’m typing — we don’t search our politician’s closets and I would suggest America would be better off evaluating their candidates on policy not closets, but if you insist on using that measuring stick McCain doesn’t measure up.
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LOL, Anlir accusing others of making personal attacks. LOL!! When should I warn my daughter about the FBI showing up at her school to prevent her from expressing her freedom of speech?
On this thread, Victoria and I are simply noting the irony of someone who is a Canadian citizen (I have many friends in Toronto) and an admitted Socialist trying to recommend for the U.S. what has proven to be a failure everywhere else in the world.
HRW is actually one of the more reasoned liberal members of this blog, so I think it’s great that he’s a regular on this blog. And I also value the input of those who are not U.S. citizens (where have I ever stated otherwise????)
Oh yeah, and BTW I don’t give a rip whether Musing thinks my arguments are substantive or not. He can skip past them if he likes, or better yet just ignore them.
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HRW has every right to comment on American politics or anything else he wishes. Contrary to their assertions, there is nothing in the Worldmag rules about limiting one’s comments to one’s own country.
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Sure, HRW has the right to comment on this blog, Anlir. I think it’s hilarious that you’re accusing Victoria of me of wanting to limit his right to post, when we think nothing of the sort!
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Anlir
Anyone can comment on this blog no matter what country they are from, try to remember that. However, I and others don’t have to agree with their socialist, Marxist beliefs, nor are we required to be SILENT when those who are outside our country, blither on about things they know nothing about.
Many countries are JEALOUS of the United States, (travel gives one an education regarding this truth) because they don’t have our freedom, and many other advantages they become whiners of the worst sort. People from many countries who have any money at all will send their kids to university here in the USA, (if there accepted) our schools are full of these kids, but yet they go back to their own countries to complain about the very country they needed to learn from. FIGURE THAT OUT!
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Musing (#5) writes:
But Dobson provides a nice discussion of why flip-flopping is not an issue.
I disagree. It is an issue when the flip-flopping originates from a character given to lies and pandering merely to garner votes. I think this is the case with Obama. As he attempts to attract votes more towards the center of the political spectrum, he is saying things that do not comport with his past record. These “new” views will be forgotten if and when he gains office. That is my view of Obama’s “flip-flopping.” He is a liar for votes.
Dobson, on the other hand, in his honesty has made it perfectly clear from the very beginning that he has serious issues with some of McCain’s past views and actions. He is not the candidate that Dobson (and many of us) would prefer.
It was honest but impolitic for him to proclaim so early that he would not vote for McCain—but Dobson is not a politician running for office. Now, considering the hideous alternative to McCain, Dobson declares himself open to the idea of endorsing McCain. This honest reconsideration on his part is in no way comparable to the deceit and pandering of Barack Hussein Obama.
This is an issue—a big one in my view. The fact that many do not consider it an important issue stems from one of two factors. Some people have not been paying attention and are not sufficiently aware of Obama’s duplicity. These people can be made aware and turned around.
On the other hand, there are others who ARE aware, but are willing to tolerate or rationalize Obama’s fraud in order to win the election. They know that once in office, he will act on his long held views that are basically Marxist in nature and also sympathetic to Jeremiah Wright’s Islamic and racist positions. This category of voters most likely cannot be turned around because they are obstinately of like-mind with Obama in matters of character and politics.
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Frank (#19),
I went to your Baldwin/Castle link and then from there to the home page of the Constitution Party. To me, both candidates and the party seem very attractive politically—at some future date, but not this year. I consider a vote for them equivalent to a vote for Obama.
BTW, what has happened to your support for Ron Paul?
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nor are we required to be SILENT when those who are outside our country, blither on about things they know nothing about.
One of the most ignorant statements I’ve seen on here. Just because a person resided outside the US of A doesn’t mean they don’t know anything about our country.
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Anlir – 93
Part of my post which you don’t understand:
“nor are we required to be SILENT when those who are outside our country, blither on about things they know nothing about.”
Anlir, there are thousands upon thousands of people who haven’t a clue as to what they are talking about, who live outside the USA, jealousy prompts many to ridicule this nation and mimic what they hear. Give them a chance to move here, and they would do it in a minute.
I have no idea how much traveling you’ve done, but most people would LOVE to relocate to the USA, they would love to raise their kids here and what we have. We are truly blessed to live in this country.
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Thanks for the backhanded compliment Outkast. If you note my posts above, I’m only commenting on the irony of the Republican’s having difficulty meeting their own standards this campaign. Standards they stamped into the political discourse it spilled over their borders. My socialism (more specifcally anarcho-socialism) has nothing to do with it.
Victoria — lets see I don’t “blither” (please define) I’m not jealous of the US. I won’t send my daughter to the US for school (unless she gets a free ride via an athletic scholarship). So am I right to assume this post has nothing to do with me?
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HRW
Didn’t you tell us months ago that you attended university in the United States?
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Michael Martin post 91,
and I was so trying to be nice to Dobson.
Is there a reason you want to pick on him???
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#96 Yes but I transferred back to Ontario and wouldn’t like my daughter to make the same mistake.
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LOL, Anlir accusing others of making personal attacks. LOL!! When should I warn my daughter about the FBI showing up at her school to prevent her from expressing her freedom of speech?
Are we gonna drag that lie out again?
If you don’t stop your personal attacks on me Outkast, I’m going to report you to the editor.
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Anlir – YOU WRITE #99 :…. “Are we gonna drag that lie out again?
So you don’t believe you said this?
POST #252 by Anlir on December 10, 2007 on “Reason and the Season” thread. I would suggest you read a few posts, it will give you an idea of what Outkast and his wife had to contend with last Christmas.
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Anlir – 99
Was your POST #252 by Anlir on December 10, 2007 on “Reason and the Season” a lie?
Outkast wasn’t lying in post #87 on THIS THREAD, and you know that.
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Oh Vicky Dear! I’m not going to argue with you over something you weren’t even involved. Mind your own business honey.
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Dobson’s a joke.
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Anlir,
We were all involved when you made your statement to Outkast regarding his daughter, we stood up for him. It is our business when you make such statements, and then try to weasel out of them later, you just got caught AGAIN!
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Vicky Dear,
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
This is my final request for you and Outkast to cease your on-line harassment of me.
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Anlir – 105
YOUR POST # 99:
Anlir it wasn’t a lie, Outkast was telling the truth, that’s why the LINK was given in my post #100 “Reason and the Season” and your post #253.
When you blurt out accusations which aren’t true, telling others they LIE you are going to be called on it.
You brought this on yourself Anlir.
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Vicky Dear,
I’m not responding any further to your lies and personal attacks. I’ll take it up with the editor.
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Anlir,
What if you get no satisfaction from the editor for all your scurrilous allegations? Will you then threaten us all with a lawsuit, alleging homophobic hatred?
That seems to be the standard course of action for homosexuals these days. I believe everyone on this site, including the editors, have bent over backwards to overlook and tolerate your often outrageous remarks and attacks. The hope has been that you might someday get past your irrational persecution complex and see some Christian understanding here.
However, as I see it, just the opposite has occurred. Tolerance and acceptance has only emboldened and exacerbated the worst in you. Your hatred and venom is growing and I wonder where it will end.
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