Theologies of work, Part III
In my last two posts I’ve taken issue with a theology of work predominant in Protestant circles (and arguably in Catholic circles, though that would entail a longer and more complicated treatment). Many preachers and teachers diminish or even ignore the product of our labor. The work becomes incidental to our sanctification and evangelism, with Reformed and Arminian sects stressing one or the other as might be expected.
And yet we know that God the Creator fashioned us in His image. Further, He gave the first man work, and not just for his sanctification, and certainly not for evangelism. The beginning of man’s history is a story of participation in God’s creative order. How then have we come to the place where we teach, in effect and sometimes even literally, that any old job will do?
I’ve found several thinkers helpful in the face of this puzzle. The first is Dorothy Sayers, who argued that we have to consider: “whether, by confining the average man and woman to uncreative activities and an uncreative outlook, we are not doing violence to the very structure of our being.” Given that we are fashioned in the image of God, in other words, we ought to consider whether that has relevance for the nature of the work we undertake. Perhaps one reason John Eldredge has sold so many books is because too many men are trapped in jobs that require no creativity, and which yield no meaningful value.
We can quibble, of course, over the phrase “meaningful value” (and in such an argument I would suggest we begin by scrutinizing “products” like high-fructose corn syrup, mindless video games, and more than a few contemporary Christian music albums). Yet many of us know people working in jobs that hold no meaning for them other than to pay the bills. In response to this malaise, a great many pastors say, in effect: Grin and bear it, and be sure to pass out some tracts while you’re there. Eldredge has been a huge hit in part because he tells men that it’s okay to feel like there has to be something more than this, and further, that “something more” isn’t just going to church and being a good boy.
Theologian N.T. Wright, meanwhile, writes in Surprised by Joy that Christians are called to participate in God’s creative and redemptive work. While many Christians — Protestants in particular — harbor a Gnostic view of creation, wherein physical things are suspect and of little value, Wright believes that the work we do for God here will have eternal consequences — in a very real physical sense:
“What you do in the present-by painting, preaching, singing, sewing, praying, teaching, building hospitals, digging wells, campaigning for justice, writing poems, caring for the needy, loving your neighbor as yourself-will last into God’s future.”
In this worldview, the content of one’s work is no longer negligible. Consider the accountant pushing paper in a bureaucratic corporation that only survives by dint of government subsidies and trade restrictions. Or the salesman hawking products that are overpriced and clearly inferior to their competitors. Or the HR functionary required to deliver training that he knows is ineffective and doesn’t address the real problems of his company. Our modern theology of work is incapable of speaking an important truth to us, which is that perhaps these are jobs that Christians should not hold. Perhaps we are called, with our hands and minds, to something higher than eeking out a living in purposeless drudgery. And falling back on the “All things work together for good” verse to justify our apathy is a cop-out.
The content of our work matters very much, but a great many pastors, when teaching about work, neglect this. The end result is that the average churchgoer is left with the impression that it is employment that matters (”if a man will not work, neither shall he eat”), and one’s behavior in the employment (”whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord”), but not so much the end product of what one does.
I’m not arguing that we should draw up a list — as the Puritans did — of approved and unapproved vocations. But we should listen more closely to the God-sent internal and external voices that call us toward (and away from) various forms of work. It was Frederick Buechner who wrote that your vocation is “where your deepest joy meets the world’s deepest need,” and I think we ought to maintain some of that reverence — and relevance — as we consider what work we will do with our hands and minds. Some work, in other words, matters more than other work, and we should stop pretending otherwise. And we should expect more from pastors who seem content to tell us to be content, as if the fruit of our labor has no bearing on the kingdom of God so long as we are evangelizing and obeying the rules. That view, in my opinion, diminishes man and God.
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back to top97 Comments to “Theologies of work, Part III”
At the end of the day, if you don’t work, you don’t eat.
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I remember several years of long, long, long, days feeding a molder sticks of wood in which I told myself over and over again, I’m doing this for* my Lord. (*”as unto”)
It never took away the mind numbing aspect of it though.
One day I was “blessed” by the fabricator/maintenance man who happened to be friends with the new owners, and he told me in no uncertain terms what the new owners thought of me and my friend who was the previous owner of the business.
In retrospect that was the best cussing out I ever got. That’s how I happened to get my current job in which I am well pleased and well suited.
I totally agree with the gist of Tony’s articles here. It matters what we do. We should be using the gifts God gave us in our vocation.
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Sometimes one must take a “purposeless” job for the time-being, to feed his family, until a better job comes along.
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“Using the gifts God gave us for our vocation,” versus “Some work, in other words, matters more than other work, and we should stop pretending otherwise.”
My husband would argue that “work is work,” and when you label one type of task as more important than another you complicate the issue.
I like MIM’s apprpoach because it calls us to use the gifts God has put into us for His purpose–whether it looks “important” in the sight of man or not. I also think we are more productive when we are using the gifts God has given us in whatever capacity–it makes no sense for a teacher to work as a plumber just because it pays more. Though I recognize you are not talking about pay.
I think I understand what you are saying, Tony, and while I agree in principle, in practice I think it could undercut the value some people see in their jobs. Or, possibly, it all depends on your point of view.
I work in Christian publishing and part of my job is to read manuscripts to determine if they are Scripturally sound. My job has tremendous value for the body of Christ, then, because in a sense I’m a gatekeeper for Christ’s reading flock.
On the other hand, feeding my family, raising my children and encouraging the elderly at my church also is important. But our society has denegrated that housewife role so much, it can be hard to muster enthusiasm for the job, shall we say.
So, I suppose my question is what dictates value/what matters–and how do you measure it?
That’s why I go back to working unto the Lord and trying to follow His will to a specific job–a call if you will–is more important than what I produce.
Or, am I still missing your point?
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I agree with Tony on this. The Puritans in fact were correct to be careful as to their work calling. Personally, in the field of investment banking banking, I’ve been rather strict about what projects to get involved with.
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“And we should expect more from pastors who seem content to tell us to be content, as if the fruit of our labor has no bearing on the kingdom of God so long as we are evangelizing and obeying the rules. That view, in my opinion, diminishes man and God.”
in what areas are current day pastors truly experts?
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“So, I suppose my question is what dictates value/what matters–and how do you measure it?”
I would hazard a guess that what dictates the value of a task is as variable as the person doing it. Some people are just not suited for certain things.
In my marriage, the person I trust the most with logistics, finances, and time, would be my wife rather than myself.
If it has to do with understanding mechanical things or repair, or creation of things, programming computers or such like, I’d definitely trust me rather than her.
It’s just a matter of who you are and what you are good at. I believe a person should be suited for the job they do. If they don’t they should strive to find something that they are suited for. Some folks could have fed that molder for 8 hours a day and never have a problem with it. It drove me absolutely bonkers…
I’d also repeat what I mentioned in Tony’s first post on this subject, that certain jobs should not be considered because they were blatantly immoral – such as a male stripper or prostitute.
Of course then there are the gray area jobs which Tony touches on which depend on situations that should not really be. I think it would behoove Christians to really consider if their job is really necessary and produces a needed product (it need not be a tangible material product), or whether it’s really in some sense uneccessary and therefore immoral.
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I can’t really think of anything more important to God than our sanctification. No matter what we produce by our work and effort, it is not as important as the work that God procuses in us (our sanctification). The actual work that rises out of a sactified soul will glorify God.
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Tony,
I think that your disagreement with Piper results from thinking on different levels. You are comparing certain jobs to other jobs, while Piper is comparing all jobs to God. On a horizontal level, I would agree with you when you write:
“Some work, in other words, matters more than other work, and we should stop pretending otherwise.”
but ultimately, I think it is more important to realize our job standing is utterly insignificant compared with our spiritual standing. Piper points out the same thing in regards to race:
“…white is nothing, black is nothing, red is nothing, yellow is nothing, but keeping God’s commandments is everything; therefore, don’t try to switch cultures.”
From an eternal perspective, the only thing that matters is whether we glorify God. I would argue that the heart of glorifying God is enjoying his prescence in our lives. Since God is with us everywhere, where we work is more or less insignificant to our enjoyment of God.
I think that sometimes we get too caught up in finding meaning in things (our work, our relationships, whatever) that we forget Who it is that gives meaning to everything.
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‘The first is Dorothy Sayers, who argued that we have to consider: “whether, by confining the average man and woman to uncreative activities and an uncreative outlook, we are not doing violence to the very structure of our being.” ‘
Well, this is exactly what Marxism and Socialism does to people and why they end up being so miserably unhappy, anti-social and in need of electroshock therapy.
We do not have to think about it. It has been totally thought trough. Socialism and Marxism are evil and to be avoided at all costs – unless you want to be an unhappy, underachiever of suspect character and merit with a huge electric bill.
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Joel Mark,
I didn’t see your post until after I had already posted, or I might not have posted anything. you basically made the point I was trying to make, and in one fourth the length.
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Tony wrote: “[God] gave the first man work, and not just for his sanctification, and certainly not for evangelism.”
Tony, who has ever said that God gave work to man “JUST” for his sanctification or for evangelism? That would be a bit gnostic. But it would also be wrong to totally exclude those reasons from our understanding of God’s motives for giving work to man. You’re not saying that are you, Tony?
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I think it’s great to seek work with meaningful value and to seek will for the best job (for our gifts) we can find. Settling for any old job is not what I would normally recommend, unless the jobless man has a family to support and has been sherking any work at all for years because it was just not creative enough or “right” for him. I am a big advocate of doing highly creative work and preparing yourself for the most meaningful and desireable work you can find. But I still think that God’s work on us (sanctification) is far more important than any work we might choose to do. And there is nothing “gnostic” about that.
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Tony wrote; “A great many pastors say, in effect: ‘Grin and bear it, and be sure to pass out some tracts while you’re there.’”
1. Who in the world are you listening to, Tony?
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No good preacher preaches that the content of our work should be of no concern. But no good preacher would ever preach that the content or product of our work in the world is more important than that of God’s (or the Holy Spirit’s) work on us and on others through us.
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Being happy and satisfied in God, family, work and friends all at the same time is difficult and a work in progress. It may even be impossible for most.
Prioritizing these areas are also difficult for some. But, I would say that if you not happy in any one of them you are likely not as happy in any of them as you should be.
Without having something meaningful to do, personally or professionally, in any one of these 4 areas should tell you, things can be and could be and should be better.
We can argue about priority but getting things better starts with God. All of your other things you have and hold dear flow from God’s graciousness and what you do – not what you try to do.
Yes, if you take responsibility, are held accountable and actually do what is required, the rest is pretty easy. God does help those that help themselves – espoecially when it comes to knowing what is required.
Praising God for His blessings while avoiding fear, pride, and ego will go along way toward you having more of everything , expecting less of it and appreciating the wonderful life God has given you – you know, the one that you screwed up all by yourself.
God fearing folks have; good character attributes, self control, shame, can be satisfied and they thank God for all of it.
Others fail at these things.
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15- “But no good preacher would ever preach that the content or product of our work in the world is more important than that of God’s (or the Holy Spirit’s) work on us and on others through us.”
who says that is a dichotomy that needs to be made? We don’t exist apart from God, in him we move and have our being, so why make this hierarchy?
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Re-stating my comment: “No good preacher would ever preach that the content or product of our work in the world is more important than the work of God (or the Holy Spirit) on us (sanctification) and His work on others through us (evangelism).
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REG asked, “Wwho says that is a dichotomy that needs to be made?”
Certainly not me. I was affirming that it is healthy for us to care about the content or product of our work, but NEVER to the point of presument that human work products or content are as important as the work God Himself does on us and in the world.
REG said, “We don’t exist apart from God, in him we move and have our being, so why make this hierarchy?”
I don’t think you understood my point, REG. It was Tony who I felt was drawing a dichotomy between the content of our work as humans and such things as sanctification and evangelism. I was responding to that, not advocating the dichotomy.
And I think Tony was criticizing pastors in general for allegedly making that dichotomy and neglecting the “content” of our work.
But be careful, REG, not to equate all human work with the work of God. I do put the work of God (whatever that is, He knows) on a higher level than the work or efforts of man.
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God’s work:
“May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.”
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
Nothing I have ever done or could do is more important than that! But God can and often does do this work even while we are working and through our working, so this is not an implied call to passively or lazily wait for God to work.
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Tony wrote; “And we should expect more from pastors who seem content to tell us to be content, as if the fruit of our labor has no bearing on the kingdom of God so long as we are evangelizing and obeying the rules.”
There’s not much evangelizing going on in the workplace today, Tony, and it is often against the rules to even try.
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21-translation-
“And we should expect more from pastors who seem content to tell us to be content,
and we should expect more from all believers than to expect the ones in the pulpit to think of everything, and we should expect MORE than to be “content” just maintaining the “church” and not use our own brains
“as if the fruit of our labor has no bearing on the kingdom of God”
as if our lives have no value apart from the contrived “church” setting
Psalm 90:17
And let the favor of the Lord our God be upon us:
And establish thou the work of our hands upon us;
Yea, the work of our hands establish thou it
so long as we are evangelizing and obeying the rules.””
So long as those who go to church only care about those things which the church gives permission to care about
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Reg – My pastor encourages us all to use our gifts as God leads, in church or out of church, & also to minister one to another.
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23-
It is a good thing that he does that, otherwise you might not think it was OK??
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No, I would know it was okay & question his stance. He does that to encourage those who maybe are timid about it.
My point was that not all churches line up with the stereotype you are describing.
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From various comments you’ve made, I have the impression that you are not very fond of pastors or the role of pastor. Is this correct?
I agree with you about the priesthood of believers, but the Bible also says that pastors have a great responsibility to shepherd, guide, & train us. Churches should have a combination of a wise pastor along with believers who are using their gifts & ministering to each other.
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I retired 15 months ago. (My garage is still not cleaned out!)
I am going to have to download and ponder these three posts and their responses. I plan to have a good 20 years of active retirement and spending too much time on the internet isn’t a good idea. What will I do?
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I agree with Tony in that we should be seeking how we might best further the kingdom of God, whether we work in a secular job, in full-time ministry, or taking care of children and/or our elders.
Sometimes, we need to do boring work to pay the bills, but many of us have many more choices than that.
Should we really be pushing ahead on our career, or does God have something more important for us to do? That might be staying home full-time to raise children, or it might be seeking out full-time ministry. Or we might be called to use our time and resources in ministry after our work hours.
It’s very easy to drift into living just like everyone around us, filling our time with living the American dream or just getting by. It’s good to be challenged to pray about – and then seek to follow – what God really wants us to do with our lives.
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Here is another idea for the mix:
What about work that is related to the fallen world in which we live and which, presumably, will not be necessary in the world to come—things like policemen, the military, doctors, locksmiths, lawyers, etc.?
Would it be correct to categorize jobs in some sort of hierarchy with the aforementioned types in a lesser category? Would the “best” jobs be those that presumably will be with us for eternity, not just in the fallen world?
I don’t know—just playing with some ideas here.
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I offer a piece I wrote on the Creation Mandate. It bears upon many of these same issues. Here is the URL – http://www.covenantfellowshipgreensboro.org/pages/writings/essays/the-creation-mandate.php.
I totally agree that this very important topic is systematically ignored through a combination of super-spirituality and nascent Gnosticism.
Joel Gillespie, Greensboro NC
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Harrison 1889 (#30),
The link didn’t work for me.
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All,
I would have responded yesterday, but I spent most of it mucking out my pond, and then recovering from sunburn. Which I raise only to indicate that I’m not placing a romantic patina over work — I think in many cases it is hard and messy. My point of view on this, having read the writers I mentioned as well as Miroslav Volf’s very thoughtful Work in the Spirit, is that we are given the opportunity to participate in God’s ongoing work of creation and redemption. He also notes (per Michael’s comment in #29), that there is an element of preservation, or protection here as well. Those who preserve and protect God’s good creation are doing important work.
Thus, Michelle (4), I don’t think we can say that “work is work,” which, you are correct, does lead to the troubling conclusion that some of us may well have to value our work less highly than we did. But I caution against using the world’s standard, which as you note is twisted. The woman training up her children is far more in tune with creation, protection, and redemption than the public relations professional who finds that his job is to manipulate public opinion.
JBH (#9), I think you touch on precisely the problem with Piper and others, which is that they want to make the “things of God,” spiritual only. It evokes one of the earliest heresies, monophysitism (the view that Christ was not really human, didn’t really get indigestion and use the bathroom and bleed real human blood). We have no reason to separate our physical actions on earth from our relationship with God, such that there is sanctification on the one hand, and work on the other, and the former clearly more important. That seems akin to saying that there is nutrition on the one hand, and eating on the other, and it’s nutrition that matters most. Perhaps so, but we would be foolish to imagine that we should separate the two.
When we work, we are exercising our talents in God’s world, and we shouldn’t believe that our work is incidental to the working out of the New Jerusalem, which includes our sanctification. This is, I think, the crux of my disagreement with Joel, namely that he, like Piper, imagines a hierarchy with spiritual over physical, rather than an interrelation.
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The fact of the matter is that a hierarchy does exist between the physical of this world and the spiritual:
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” – Matthew 10:28
“For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?” – Matthew 16:26
“For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal. ” – 2 Corinthians 4:18
The problem arises when you try to create a dichotomy between the two, labeling the spiritual as good and the physical as evil. This is not what Piper is doing though. He is not saying that our work is unimportant because it is physical. He is saying that our work is immensely important, because how we do our work either makes much of God or makes little of Him.
From another sermon on work:
“First, God wills work because when we work in reliance on his power and according to his pattern of excellence, his glory is made known and our joy is increased.”
I agree that it is foolish to try and separate God’s sanctifying work and our daily, physical work, but it is not foolish to focus on one more than the other.
“Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.” – Matthew 6:31-33
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Regarding Piper and monophysitism:
See this sermon, where he not only denounces monophysitism, but claims that Christ not only came in the flesh, but is still in the flesh, as the “firstborn among many brothers”
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Tony mentioned Miroslav Volf’s “Work in the Spirit.” I have not read it but I did go to seminary with his wife Judy, before she was his wife. She studied a lot in the library. I know because… well, I just knew. It took me weeks to build up the nerve to ask her out. It took her about 3 seconds to gracefully turn me down.
Rather smart woman, I always thought! Smile.
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JBH,
Of course I don’t think Piper is a monophysite, but I think that heresy, like manicheanism and gnosticism, works its way into Protestant thinking.
I think we are probably in agreement on flesh and spirit. We know that this present flesh will die and rot, but our souls will be saved, and eventually clothed with new, incorruptible bodies. In that sense the spiritual may be considered “higher.”
My point is that they are intertwined, in at least two ways. First, we see that God himself intertwines them (”fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell”), such that the resurrection is not simply spiritual, but physical.
Second, we know that our response to God is inherently physical as well as spiritual, and that these are interrelated. How do we love and honor him? By keeping his commandments. By loving our neighbors as ourselves. By kneeling in prayer. Faith without works, explains James, is dead, for it is by itself. The spiritual and physical, it seems clear, as a consequence of God’s good design, are inseparable.
Which brings us back to Piper’s essay on work, which I appreciate your providing. I think everything he says is true, but it is incomplete. For him the purpose of work (aside from providing for oneself and one’s family and evangelizing) is still sanctification and glorification alone. When we rely on God and pattern ourselves after his excellence, Piper explains, we glorify and enjoy him (harking to the Westminster Catechism).
But notice that there is still no attention to what the work is (aside from the baseline requirement that it not be immoral). Thus Piper says: “When you work like this — no matter what your vocation is — you can have a sweet sense of peace at the end of the day.” “No matter what your vocation” — for Piper it is about how you do the work, not what you do.
I respect Piper immensely, but I believe that is dead wrong.
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After reading the two Piper sermons linked by JBH and then Tony’s comments, is the following a fair summary of the disagreement ?
Piper believes all legitimate work to be basically equal in God’s scheme of things. The vocation of one Christian is not more holy or important than that of another. Tony, on the other hand, believes some work to be more holy or important than another, i.e., there is a hierarchy of importance in God’s eyes.
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JBH, excellent post at #33.
Tony wrote; “This is, I think, the crux of my disagreement with Joel, namely that he, like Piper, imagines a hierarchy with spiritual over physical, rather than an interrelation.”
Tony, please read #33.
Jesus was tempted to turn a stone to bread (apparently to meet a legitimate physical need), but he answered, “Man shall not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4). Jesus was able to distinguish between physical and spiritual priorities here without dichotomizing them. He never disparaged bread, but he treasured God’s words and wisdom even more.
Also, when Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor, Jesus refused him and his terms. But think of the temporal good Jesus could have done with that earthly power! He could have provided universal health care, fed the 5 million (not just the 5,000), brought world peace, and ruled with justice on earth! Think of the physical benefits his high position of power could have yielded for physical humanity!
The problem is that you and I would still be in our sins too. But Jesus stuck to his more spiritual mission to forgive our sins; “to seek and to save the lost.” (Luke 19). He put his own strong physical desire to survive below his deeply spiritual devotion to His Father’s will.
So, for the reasons JBH gave and my own, yes, I do “imagines a hierarchy with spiritual over physical,” only I don’t think it is my imagination. It is a hierarchy that Jesus revered without disparaging the physical realm. Jesus just knew that in the priority-sorting realm in our hearts, God’s kingdom must come first (Matt. 6:33).
Tony thinks that “Piper and others” want to make the “things of God,” spiritual only. With respect, I don’t think Tony understands. The things of God cannot be isolated and boiled down like that. Replace the word “only” with “first!”
When Jesus was asked about the greatest commandment, he put the spiritual one first (to love the invisible God with all our heart, mind, sould & strength) and our love of our more visible neighbor “second.” But both are great commands.
I do not isolate the physical from the spiritual at all and neither did Jesus. He did cut through a lot of fog to prioritized them though!
Every Christmas, I drive home the truth, from the pulpit, of how human Jesus became when he became flesh on our behalf. And I “flesh that out” in no uncertain terms–he needed to be cleaned up, got frustrated, took sick (probably), and if Hebrews 5:8 is correct, he “learned obedience…” (that point made one of my listeners mad).
But What pastor is it who Tony says is “separating” our physical actions on earth from our relationship with God? And who is saying that the things of God are “spiritual only?”
We are just saying, “Seek ye first… and all these “things” will follow in line as God wills and as we surrender to His will (as Jesus did).
Tony, I do make a distinction between me, as I am, and God. That is to say, I am not God! This establishes that my work is meaningfully distinct from His work. And His work is better! It is everlasting. And to whatever extent I can yield to His Spirit to let Him work in me and let me participate in His mission, to that extent there is (to use your word) “interrelation.” But I’m not fully there yet so some honest distinctions between what I am and do and what God is and does are crucial. And God’s work of sanctification is greater than any physical or earthly work I do!
I feel like Tony is doing gymnastics to avoid agreeing with me or taking my points objectively. Perhaps I did not explain it well enough before, or still haven’t.
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All theology is about nothing. Theology is the most worthless subject ever invented.
One garbage man has more value than all the theologians who ever lived and who live today.
The Theologian is an owl, sitting on an old dead branch in the tree of human knowledge, and hooting the same old hoots that have been hooted for hundreds and thousands of years, but he has never given a hoot for progress.
– Emmett F. Fields
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BOBXXXXXXX,
#39:
Try this, instead:
“The one who truly prays is a theologian, and the true theologian is one who prays.”
Evagrius of Pontus, 4th C.
As for progress, I think it may be only true theologians who make any progress at all. It’s the rest of us who just sit here and hoot.
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Joel (and JBH),
Let me be clear by what I mean by hierarchy. In it, the higher thing can be chosen independent of the lower thing. The lower thing may have value, but the higher thing must come first, which implies that it has sufficiency of itself.
You both say that you don’t seek a dichotomy between spiritual and physical, but if you (intentionally or tacitly) believe that the spiritual is good and satisfactory by itself, I think you have imposed just such a dichotomy.
Joel, notice, for example, how you equate “God’s kingdom” with the spiritual (”God’s kingdom must come first,” i.e., the spiritual must come first). This is the subtle influence of manicheanism that I alluded to earlier, the notion that God’s kingdom is spiritual alone, with the physical things being “add-ons” that can be good, so long as we remember to embrace the spiritual things first.
Notice also how you transform love of God into a spiritual thing, when a mature understanding of love reveals, I believe, that it is not sentiment or “heart attitude” (the heart is the most deceitful of all things, remember), but action, which in the case of loving God translates into obedience to his commandments. “We are his workmanship,” wrote Paul (whose doctrine taken in isolation lends itself most readily to this spiritual/physical schism) “created in Christ Jesus for good works.” The rejuvenation of the spirit, in other words, has a physical end, not just a meditative end.
The Bible makes clear, I think, that we cannot separate the spiritual and physical so easily — in fact, it is that very separation that time and again is shown to be bad (e.g., the evil person who has indulged the lusts of his flesh until his spirit is deadened; the “spiritual person” who believes that his belief, without action, is sufficient; the materialist who worries about peril to his flesh without considering peril to his soul).
Further, we see a God who works in the physical realm, who lived in a physical house alongside his people until their actions repelled him, who came to us incarnate, who ordained the sacrament of eating and drinking his flesh and blood, and who returned after his murder, again incarnate. To say that this is a God who wants us to put the spiritual first seems to me an error, because the spiritual is inherently bound up with the physical.
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Michael (#37),
I believe you’ve captured it, though I don’t think I’m arguing that some work is “more holy” as much as I’m arguing, to be blunt, that work is either holy or unholy. If we are not cooperating with God in his creative, redemptive, protective purposes (be it “small,” as in Martin Luther’s example of a father changing a diaper, or “large,” as in the case of setting up a medical clinic in a developing nation), then we are working against his purposes, which is unholy.
Work which yields no objective value squanders precious resources (chief among which is the creative energy of man). Work which yields a harmful product destroys God’s creation. These are unholy practices, suited to a pagan culture wherein the governing maxim is “eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die,” but not to a people who are laboring for the coming kingdom of God.
What I’m proposing, in effect, is that there are objective standards for what comprises harmful or beneficial work, but these can only be assessed subjectively, because the person doing the work is frequently in the best position (certainly compared to an outsider like me) to determine whether it is yielding real value or not. So my objection to Piper et al is that they obfuscate the issue and thus promote apathy about something to which the Christian should be, on the contrary, quite attentive.
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“a mature understanding of love reveals, I believe, that it is not sentiment or “heart attitude” (the heart is the most deceitful of all things, remember), but action, which in the case of loving God translates into obedience to his commandments.”
If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that one’s actions are what is important, not one’s emotions, in determining whether an action is “loving.”
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. One’s “heart attitude” is vitally important. Take, for instance, two actions – speaking and giving – and notice what the Bible says about the relation between action and affection (used in the puritan sense):
“How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” – Matthew 12:34
“Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” 2 Corinthians 9:7
God is not impressed by actions of will power, nor is He glorified by them.
“This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me” – Matthew 15:8
“Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord?
And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart.” – Psalm 24:3-4
(not just clean hands or just a pure heart, but both)
We cannot downplay the importance of the heart, but rather must stress the importance of right action flowing from a purified heart. We are to love God with all our heart, as well as all our strength.
“This is the essence of what it means to love God—to be satisfied in him.
In him! Loving God may include obeying all his commands; it may include
believing all his Word; it may include thanking him for all his gifts; but the
essence of loving God is enjoying all he is. It is this enjoyment of God that
glorifies his worth most fully, especially when all around our soul gives way.” – John Piper, Loving God for Who He Is
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Thank you for your reply, Tony. I found myself caring a lot about hearing from you. That we disagree does not change the fact that I respect your views.
Tony, you misunderstand “hierarchy” by importing too many negative presumptions of your own into it. You are just dead wrong to p[resume that I tacitly or necessarily believe that the spiritual is good and satisfactory by itself.
What if I told you, Tony, that you clearly show antipathy or indifference to things spiritual and “only” value things physical? You would feel misunderstood. Well, I feel misunderstood every time you import the word “only” or the phrase “by itself” into my argument.
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Tony, which is the GREATER commandment; to love God or to love your neighbor? Consider Mark 12:28-31 carefully. To affirm the hierarchy that Jesus affirmed there is NOT to negate the “lesser” commandment. In fact they have a complimentary relationship, but one is still GREATER than the other, according to Jesus.
When you cite “manicheanism”, “monophysitism” and others such isms, it only shows you are not listening but have some intellectual agenda of your own.
Tony wrote; “Notice also how you transform love of God into a spiritual thing…”
“Love of God” IS a spiritual thing, Tony, and it has wonderful physical ramifications to boot. It took no transformation by me to make this so. And loving God comes before (or is greater than) loving our neighbors since Jesus told so specifically.
Tony wrote; “Work which yields a harmful product destroys God’s creation.”
How about work done sincerely and in earnest that does harm in spite of our best intentions and expectations? Can holiness ever be defined or embraced in spite of its perceived results?
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Tony, good theology begins with the realization the “I am not God!” That means making a crucial distinction in our hearts and minds between ourselves with all our sins, needs and weaknesses, and the Creator/Redeemer of the universe (and of us).
It is spiritually fatal to blend that distinction too much. Seeing and admitting that distinction does not drive us away from God or “separate” us from Him, rather it drives us toward Him for the strength and forgiveness we KNOW we need from Him. If you deny or blur the distinction, you lose sight of your need to move toward God at any and all cost?
The following distinctions are crucial to good theology:
God and man. Too much blending here leads to self worship or creation worship, and idolatry of all sorts. And it’s an idolatry embraced in the name of “spirituality.”
Good and evil. Too much moral blending makes a moral relativist.
Spiritual and physical: Too much blending here makes us spiritually blind in a fog that can make us confuse our physical desires and impulses with the very will of God. Until we can identify dictinctions of light, shape and depth, we cannot claim to see (physically or spiritually).
The gap between these things is bridged by God, but we must first recognize the gaps clearly.
Tony, I think you are sliding too far into a ’social gospel’ (this-worldly) theology and this is unbiblical. This is just the opinion of a 53-year-old pastor who has been quite active in social efforts and outreach.
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JBH,
Here we are in complete agreement, when you write:
I didn’t mean to indicate that I think action alone will suffice, because clearly that is untrue. I do believe, however, that love can only ever be spiritual and physical, that to prune one away from the other, or to elevate one over the other, is to destroy its fruitful exercise.
I’ll have to ponder the Piper quote a bit; I get nervous when we start substituting catechism language (”enjoy Him”) for scriptural language, and then elevating it (”the essence of loving God”). Repeatedly we are told in the Old and New Testaments that our love for God is born out in our obedience to his commandments. Piper’s effort to discern some meditative, non-active “essence” of loving God seems errant. But again, that would entail further study.
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Joel,
I see some of our disagreement, then, comes from my misinterpreting what you mean. To be clear, you’re saying that God values the spiritual and the physical, but that the spiritual is more important, and must come first. Is that a fair reading of your point of view?
If so, I think where we disagree is that I believe an elevation of the spiritual over the physical distorts the truth, because they are too bound up to have one elevated over the other. God works in both realms, and his work in one inevitably redounds to the other, just as our work (or failures) in one affect the other.
I don’t see anything wrong with an intellectual agenda, (doesn’t every thinking person have one?) but I am sorry that my reference to old heretical doctrines irritates you. My point in doing so is simply that they persist in the modern Church.
As for the Mark passage, you left out something critical, I think, to our discussion, which is: “The Lord our God is one Lord.” I don’t think that statement can brook an elevation of the spiritual over the physical, making equivalent as it does the Incarnate Christ with the Holy Spirit and God the Father.
Regarding the blending of spiritual and physical, again, I think you are conceptualizing God as inherently a spiritual (i.e., disembodied) being. Yet we are created in His image, which implies some form (though not in the sense that you or I have a body, because note how Solomon declared that the heavens themselves cannot contain Him). He clearly is quite comfortable in the physical realm, so why do we seek to disembody and spiritualize Him?
I think we are in complete agreement that we cannot trust our physical bodies and intuitions to guide us spiritually. But they are our means of serving God, and they are the objects (in part) of eventual glorification (when we receive incorruptible bodies). I see how this leads you to the conclusion that the spiritual is more important, because when the heart is sick, the body sins, and further, in Reformed doctrine, there is this belief that the spirit is dead until God regenerates it, suggesting that the critical action is spiritual.
I don’t dispute those beliefs, but I don’t see how they translate into a belief that the spiritual is therefore more important. In temporal order of salvation it appears to come first, but that doesn’t translate, to me, into greater importance, again, because I think Scripture teaches that spirit and body are bound up in mysterious ways that cannot be untangled.
So perhaps in the end this is just a rhetorical dispute. Regardless, even if you believe that the spiritual is more important, can you appreciate how Piper et al might still be wrong about work, by failing to distinguish between work that participates in God’s creative, redemptive order, and work that does not?
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“All theology is about nothing. Theology is the most worthless subject ever invented”
all “man trying to improve God’s words” is a clanging gong
do we work this hard at trying to understand our own spouses and children?
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now, man (and woman) proving God’s words is another matter
the one is mere talk, the other faith seen by works
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#48, to your question in the first paragraph:
Yes, the spiritual realm is foundational for better Christian living at the physical level, just like repentance is the soil out of which love grows (”Bear fruit that befits repentance” Matt. 3:8).
As C.S. Lewis wrote: “A continual looking forward to the eternal world is not a form of escapism or wishful thinking… If you read history, you will find that the Christians who did the most for the present world were just those who thought the most of the next.”
I left out nothing of essence in the Mark passage, Tony. I did not quote it out in full for brevity’s sake, but I presumed you knew the passage and could consider it in context without me itemizing every word or thought in it.
You are simply dismissing outright the moral and theological hierarchy that Jesus affirms, in no uncertain terms. Loving the Father whom we cannot see with our eyes (essentially a spiritual command), stands above, and is foundational for, loving our neighbor whom we can see (physically).
Also, as quoted at #33:
“For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal. ” – 2 Corinthians 4:18
The social “this-worldly” gospel sells short the gospel of Christ.
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#49, “do we work this hard at trying to understand our own spouses and children?”
Absolutely. But the more we wrok on putting God and our love for Him first, the better (and more loving) we are to our spouse and children.
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how is your love for God “first?” what does that look like in real life?
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Joel,
I wasn’t playing “gotcha” by quoting the rest of that passage, I was trying to make the point that Christ identified himself as Lord, meaning that we shouldn’t view loving the Lord as loving some distant, disembodied entity.
Do you see how you assume that the eternal world of which Lewis wrote is only spiritual? Yet the Bible speaks of Christ returning to establish a new heaven and a new earth, in language rich with physical implications. Heaven is not solely a spiritual place, nor is God solely a spiritual being. The fact that we cannot see him with our eyes doesn’t prove that he is in essence spiritual alone, any more than the fact that we can’t see China from here proves that China is a spirit land.
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#53 – “how is your love for God ‘first?’ what does that look like in real life?”
My friend, if you sincerely want to know what it means to “love God first,” then you are ready for Him to change your life forever.
First, you reach as far inside your heart as possible to repent of your sin and admit your need for God. Respond positively to what Peter preached on the day when the church was first born, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38).
This also means you surrender your will to God (over your own) as Jesus did in the garden praying, “Not my will, but Thy will be done.”
From there, the Holy Spirit will begin to shape and sanctify you for godly living in the real world. That will foster a far better life of “putting God first” and “loving God first” than I could describe for you in detail here.
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so, (in Geoffrey Paxton’s terms) the gospel of the changed life is not the gospel that changes lives. Your hierachial understanding of reality is preventing you from being real.
This question wasn’t meant to be a salvation experience for a nubie, but a chance for you to SHOW your salvation
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56- is for Joel
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Tony,
Serious exegetical error. Jesus (in Mark 12:29) was quoting directly from Deuteronomy 6:4-6 (the “Shema”) and not referring to himself, but to the Father. Christ was clearly not “identifying himself” in that passage.
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REG, my hierarchical understanding about loving God first and foundationally is biblical. What I described to you in my respectful reply at #55 was as real as it gets for Christians, whether new or not. We are never too old or mature to re-visit our salvation as freshly as possible. And God’s steadfast love is new every morning. Waking up to it is the highest joy of all.
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Tony asked, “Do you see how you assume that the eternal world of which Lewis wrote is only spiritual?”
Where did you get the word “only”, Tony? You are importing that. Lewis was making a meaningful distinction between “this present world” and the “next.” And he was affirming that those who think the most of the next world are the often same as those who do the most good in the present world.
Regardless of how you presume to define the specific nature of the “next” world, Lewis is simply talking about people who CURRENTLY live in THIS world and are thinking MOST about the next.
Jesus said, “God is Spirit.” (John 4:24). But if you want to use Revelation (a highly figurative book) to import other allegedly physical attributes to God the Father, I will not claim to understand His mysterious nature more than you.
But I stand by the biblical imperative of regarding the command to love God, the Father, as greater than the command to love our neighbor. I stand by the biblical imperitive to treasure that which cannot rust above that which can, and the biblical imperitive to regard God’s work in us (sanctification) as more important than my work in the world (which is still important). And such distinctions are theologically sound and healthy.
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Joel,
In the Shema, the unity of God is proclaimed, his oneness in the face of polytheistic tribes. Surely we agree that this oneness includes the Son and Holy Spirit, yes? If so, then when Christ repeats it, is he not speaking of himself?
Regardless, I think the point remains: here we have the living, incarnate God standing in his sweaty sandals, repeating the teaching that his hearers already know full well (which in itself suggests a significance to his repeating it), and yet people insist on perceiving God as an unseen spirit.
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Joel,
My point is that in distinguishing between this world and the next, you seem to assume that the “next” world will be entirely spiritual. Am I wrong in my interpretation of what you’re saying?
Jesus also said, in the book of John: “I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.” God is spirit, and God is a physical presence – a whirlwind, a whisper, a bleeding man on a cross, an incarnate God who rose up from death so that his disciples could see the nail holes and know that death was conquered.
I don’t dispute your interpretation that the commandment to love God is greater than the commandment to love one’s neighbor. But I disagree that this somehow elevates the spiritual above the physical, again, because we are talking about an incarnate God who comes to us in a physical place, not a spirit God who has never been seen.
Perhaps it’s a small disagreement, but the consequence of your line of thinking (and Piper’s), it seems to me, is that we set aside important work in favor of getting ourselves sanctified, which seems to me like trying to get nourished in advance of eating.
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#41 – Tony wrote; “Joel, notice, for example, how you equate ‘God’s kingdom’ with the spiritual (’God’s kingdom must come first,’ i.e., the spiritual must come first).”
Jesus said, “But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.” (Matthew 6:33).
In context, Jesus is admonishing us not to worry about ‘food’, ‘drink’, or the ‘body’ (vs. 25), your ‘life span’ (vs 27), ‘clothing’ (vs 28), what we eat, drink or wear (re-stated in vs. 31). These are of the physcial realm.
When Jesus gets to the point, he begins his challenge with the conjunction, “But…” (vs 33). In contrast to seeking the physical pursuits and concerns he mentioned, Jesus admonishes us to seek his kingdom FIRST. Then the other things (physical needs) will follow.
Take away the spiritual and pysical distinction set up by Jesus in context, and you lose his point about what must come first. If his kingdom is a blend of things spritual and pysical in this passage, then what could it be that Jesus wants us to seek secondarily to the kingdom? Certainly not another kingdom! We should not seek that at all. He is telling us to seek the things of the spirit first (notice I did not write “ONLY”) and trust God more for the physical.
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Reg – Did you happen to see my comments (#s 25 & 26) above? I forgot to “address” them to you.
BTW, from reading Joel Mark’s comments over the years, I would say he has “shown” the reality of his faith in Christ as much as is possible in this type of forum. Perhaps the fact that he is a pastor doesn’t impress you much, but he has also written here & there of various ways he ministers to others in his life.
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Tony asked, “Am I wrong in my interpretation of what you’re saying?”
Yes! Clearly wrong. I did not use the word “entirely.”
Tony, I guess I give up. You fear the alleged “consequence of my line of thinking,” as if it allows for setting aside “…important work in favor of getting ourselves sanctified, which seems to me like trying to get nourished in advance of eating.”
Your ongoing misunderstanding and mis-stating of my view is beyond me. I think you are too smart to not get what I am saying, so I don’t know what is going on.
1. Sanctification is God’s work (and thus it is more important than my work); we don’t just “get ourselves sanctified.”
2. Over and over, I have pointed out that putting God and the things of the Spoirit first does not “set aside” physical work, but it empowers it and makes it flourish.
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59-
I would like to hear from your wife…
have you ever seen play Tartuffe?
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Joel,
I promise I’m not being obtuse, or trying on purpose to exasperate you. If you’ll ask my wife, she can confirm that I do these things naturally, without even trying.
Here’s why I keep coming back to the conclusion that you believe (tacitly) that God’s kingdom is entirely spiritual. You write:
It seems to me that you believe God’s kingdom is not of the physical realm, because you are drawing a distinction between it and the physical. If, on the other hand, you mean that God’s kingdom has a spiritual and physical dimension, and that Christ is here enjoining us to pursue it over our immediate, selfish, temporal physical needs, then I am in complete agreement with you. But I still have to insist that I see no evidence here that the spiritual is therefore elevated over the physical.
With that said, I think we are doing great damage to language here, not having precisely defined “spiritual” and “physical,” and further, not having clarified in the original languages the different uses of these terms, and of related terms like “the world.” That is the occasion for a deeper study that I’ll undertake in the coming months, at which point I’ll probably learn that most of what I’ve been arguing here is at best a glancing blow at the truth.
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Tony,
I’ll be interested in hearing what you learn about the terms in the original languages. I had a Bible professor who taught that “spiritual” does not mean non-physical but that it has to do with our whole being in relationship to God. He also said that “soul” was our whole being in relationship with other people, and “body” our whole being as it relates to the physical world.
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68-
““spiritual” does not mean non-physical but that it has to do with our whole being in relationship to God. He also said that “soul” was our whole being in relationship with other people, and “body” our whole being as it relates to the physical world.”
Pauline, makes good sense. I have heard other such explanations about other biblical terms. It is refreshing.
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In Matthew 6, Jesus clearly admonishes us not to be anxious about such physical things as food, drink, body, life span and such. Verse 33 begins with a conjunction to set a contrast with the anxious seeking of those things. Instead, we ought to seek “the kingdom” first. Jesus is teaching us to prioritize our hearts so that we trust God first and seek his kingdom BEFORE anxiously seeking the physical things he just listed.
I do not understand the kingdom by applying some abstract dichotomy between things physical and spiritual. I understand it in terms of priorities. But still, to set priorities, one must make distinctions, even between things of the flesh and things of the spirit.
Jesus does that in Matthew 6. How can one make priorities at all if things spritual and physical are too blended in our hearts and minds? This blending allows us to put those concerns about food, clothes, drink and ‘life span’ (all mentioned in Matt. 6 by Jesus as secondary concerns) back up to the front burner. This makes sense from a pragmatic worldly perspective. But kingdom priorities can lose their place at the top of our heart’s agenda. Jesus’ promise is hard to accept. He wants us to put God’s rule first in our hearts and then TRUST Him with our other needs. This is undermined when we blends all our concerns as equal.
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What Pauline’s Bible prof said (her summary) sounds spot on. And it does not mean we can fail to draw wise distinctions and prioritize things spiritual and physical as God leads.
First things first! As a general principle (no absolute dichotomies), if we put the spiritual first, we get the spiritual and the physical. If we put the physical first, we lose both in the end.
If we put God first, we get God and real ‘life abundant.’ If we put ‘life abundant’ first, we lose it all.
If we put holiness first, we can get holiness and happiness. If we put happiness first, we lose both.
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Joel,
[Note: I wrote the below before your #71 showed up. So perhaps this is unneeded, but as long as I wrote it, I decided to go ahead and post it.]
There is certainly a contrast in Matthew 6, between anxious seeking for physical things and seeking the Kingdom of God. Perhaps the question is whether the Kingdom of God is a separate “set” (to use math terms) from physical things, or if it is a larger set of which the physical things are a subset. If the latter, seeking the physical things first is not wrong because they are of less importance, but because they are only a part of the whole and by focussing on them one misses a great deal that is also important. By seeking first the Kingdom of God, that includes everything that is important. Because our natural tendency is to put too much importance on the physical, adjusting our focus according to Jesus’ teaching puts the physical in its proper place in our lives.
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I also think it is important to distinguish between this current physical world, and the physical and spiritual world of the new heaven and new earth. A rejection of the physical because of the effects of the fall is overreacting. It is not overreacting, though, to seek the spiritual, which is continuous between this world and the next, over the physical of this world, which is distinct from the physical of Christ’s kingdom.
“Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”” – John 18:36
“as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.” – 2 Cor. 4:18
All in all, my take on this issue is that from a salvation perspective, none of our actions matter – only the grace of God matters. Secondarily, what matters most is whether our actions glorify God, and I would argue that that depends as much on how we do something (that is, in the grace God supplies) as what we do. I don’t think that the particulars of what we do are totally irrelevant, but they are of at most a tertiary importance, and I believe that most, if not all, of the issues Tony raised about types of working situations will have already been resolved before one gets to this third level of significance.
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It seems to me that when we put God first, seeking His will in each day as our first priority, our other priorities will fall into the proper line, whether they be physical, spiritual, or mental. That, of course, would include the kind of work we do.
Is this too simplistic a view?
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Tony,
It is becoming popular among yonger evangelicals to minimizes themes related to heaven or eternal life to place an excessive focus on a ‘social justice’ or ‘social gospel’ approach.
An Emergent Church (EC) movement leader, Mike Clawson, said: ‘”salvation” goes beyond forgiveness of sins to a radical transformation of my whole person as well as the whole world.”
What does Clawson mean by “radical?”
Frankly, this sounds like Obama, who today just spoke in Berlin about his hope “to remake the world once again.”
I am all for “transformation” but it must begin with our personal repentance of sin and with Jesus’ personal and graceful forgiveness. From there, the transformation is primarily the work of God’s Holy Spirit (and that work has positive physical consequences in this world). Otherwise, we reduce Christianity to social engineering and “this-worldly” utopianism.
Clawson says, “We are called right now as agents of the kingdom, working for justice, compassion, love and joy in the world around us.”
Fine, but this is often code language for a politicized (leftist) gospel. It sure is for Clawson who loathes President Bush with a passion and shows him little respect!
EC Movement leaders often speak disparagingly about an alleged “gospel of personal salvation from hell.” It’s an overly simplistic and straw caracature of what traditional Christians think and say. For some EC leaders, their criticism starts out of natural reservations about the whole notion of “hell” but for many EC leaders, it has descended into a rejection of that notion altogether.
Clawson wants more focus (by Christians and the church) on issues of social justice, care for the poor, fighting economic exploitation, overcoming racism, gender equality, care for the Creation, fair trade, peacemaking, and so on.
These are fine issues, but the deception is in the false straw they use to mis-represent conservative Christians and the traditional gospel. The schtick is that conservative Christians are not compassionate and all they care about is the next world.
That’s false.
A previous WoW post once stated that “Clawson began to question his political loyalties because of the ‘lack of compassion’ he saw in the conservative leadership’s rhetoric.”
That’s nothing but a leftist talking point to make conservatives out of flammable straw that they can burn. Conservatives are hugely compassionate. So are many liberals. But we show it differently.
The torch we carry is a message of eternal salvation. If that is not our legacy, then we are not a church. If Jesus’ mission was to remake the world and pursue social justice, feed the poor, fight economic exploitation, overcome racism, care for the Creation, and make peace, then why would he have to die on a cross? He could have just accepted Satan’s final offer to rule the kingdoms of the world!
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One of the original leaders in the Emergent Church Movement, Brian McLaren, said the following: “The church has been preoccupied with the question, ‘What happens to your soul after you die?’ As if the reason for Jesus coming can be summed up in, ‘Jesus is trying to help get more souls into heaven, as opposed to hell, after they die.’ I just think a fair reading of the Gospels blows that out of the water. I don’t think that the entire message and life of Jesus can be boiled down to that bottom line.” ~ Brian McLaren, from the PBS special on the Emerging Church.
This is ridiculous and deceptive.
It was McLaren who boiled down the presumed preoccupation of the church with his own stereotypical caracature – as if all the church cares about is, ‘What happens to your soul after you die?’. But it’s a false summary. He is criticizing the church for his own false description of what they care about.
McLaren props up the following straw teaching of the church as, ‘Jesus is trying to help get more souls into heaven, as opposed to hell, after they die.’ Then McLaren writes; “I don’t think that the entire message and life of Jesus can be boiled down to that bottom line.”
Of course it can’t, but McLaren is the one who stamped the church with that straw (and false) branding, so that he could ridicule it.
C.S. Lewis was right to write: “The Church exists for nothing else but to draw men into Christ, to make them little Christs. If they are not doing that, all the cathedrals, clergy, missions, sermons, even the Bible itself, are simply a waste of time. God became Man for no other purpose.” (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pgs. 169,170).
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Joel Mark,
I attended churches when I was a teen where McLaren’s statement would have been only a slight exaggeration of their attitude. They distrusted medical missions because they didn’t want to take a single dollar away from preaching (to save men’s souls) to heal their bodies. It was frequently emphasized in preaching that the only reason God didn’t just take us to heaven as soon as we were saved was so that we could witness to other people so they would get saved. Music, art, writing, and just about any other activity was considered worthwhile only to the extent that it contributed to people getting saved. I had always wanted to be a writer, probably a journalist with ambitions to eventually do some creative writing. But they saw my writing ability only as a tool to write Sunday School curricula, and I finally gave up my dream of writing to become a missionary (though after completing my Bible major in college I came to the conclusion that I was not called to that after all) because it was presented as the surest way to be doing God’s will.
I was very active in each church, so I don’t think this is just a superficial impression that I got. And such churches would only fellowship with others that thought the same way. It was quite an eye-opener to me (a very welcome one) when I went to a Christian college to learn that there were many churches and many Christians who thought differently.
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Joel,
N.T. Wright (certainly no young evangelical) argues, quite persuasively, in Surprised by Hope that many Christians wrongly conceive of heaven as a spirit-world. The consequence is that they are inadequately concerned with justice, peace, health, and environmental protection. One can argue that this is all a vicious left-wing calumny, of course, but I don’t recall seeing Rush Limbaugh, or Pat Robertson, for that matter, get out front on any policy issue that didn’t involve lowering taxes, waging war, or telling people what to do in their bedrooms.
As for what the Emergent Church is or is up to, I can’t speak for them. I’m sensitive to your concern that my refusal to emphasize the spiritual over the physical somehow plays into errant teaching that you perceive to be coming from their camp. I hope you can see (though I respect the fact that you don’t agree with) my concern that emphasizing sanctification as a process independent of (or taking precedence over) the physical realm likewise leads to errant behavior.
I see that we’ve come far afield from the original point of these essays, so I’ll add one final thing that perhaps might make what I’ve been trying to say clearer:
If one’s eschatology is that everything in this physical world will be utterly destroyed before the New Jerusalem is built, then work is merely instrumental (as Miroslav Volf writes) to the contemplative life. Then I would concur with you (and Piper, and the vast majority of pastors and theologians I’ve read on this issue) that what we ought be attending to is sanctification, with the product of our labor being something we attend to secondarily, and with Piper’s seeming indifference to what actual work we do being therefore justified.
If one’s eschatology is, on the other hand, that there will be a continuity between the present physical world and the coming incorruptible world, then our labors here have eternal value. I agree with Volf, who writes: “the noble products of human ingenuity, ‘whatever is beautiful, true and good in human cultures,’ will be cleansed from impurity, perfected, and transfigured to become a part of God’s new creation.”
In that worldview, the spiritual and physical are intertwined, so that it makes no sense to try to elevate one over the other. Further, the best route toward sanctification might well be to cooperate with the Father in his creative and redemptive work. This is, of course, what the Son did (and does), and so I fully agree with the quote you offer from Lewis.
Maybe we can both agree with Karen (# 74) and get back to our good works. And submission to (embrace of) sanctification, of course.
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#77, All that is anecdotal. I think it would be wrong for anyone to build a theology out of the abuses one sees on any side of the spectrum. We ought to build our theology out of the Bible as best we can.
I would also oppose the theology that you described in your church that allegedly fits McLaren’s stereotype.
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Tony wrote; “The consequence is that they are inadequately concerned with justice, peace, health, and environmental protection.”
What would you say to a theology that allowed Christians to be inadequately concerned with the sacredness of life itself, the integrity of marriage, the rise of taxes to the point of enslaving workers, the practice of appeasement with terrorists, the vicious abuse of the Boy Scouts, the forced redistribution of wealth, or if it made us tolerant twoard murder?
Such politicizing can go both ways.
Real conservatives are every bit as much concerned with peace and justice and environmental protection. We may see more realistic ways to pursue them but we are just as concerned. The EC leaders who caracature us are being irresponsible for a political agenda.
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So what if you “don’t recall seeing seeing Rush Limbaugh, or Pat Robertson, for that matter, get out front on any policy issue that didn’t involve lowering taxes, waging war, or telling people what to do in their bedrooms.”?
Irrelevant. What you see or don’t see them doing does not define them nor should it define one’s theology. Are you averring that those issues (even as you characterized them in a snipy way) are NOT important to society or to God?
Can you tell me when any of even those men have ever told anyone what they can or cannot do in theri bedrooms? Maybe they have, but I’ve never heard it.
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#79
Joel Mark,
Of course it’s anecdotal. But if I experienced that, no doubt others did too. And if they didn’t experience the good churches that I have since, it would hardly be surprising for them to make statements such as McLaren’s, not knowing that their experience was not typical.
That doesn’t mean I agree with McLaren’s theology (which, honestly, I know little of). But the “straw man” he is arguing against may well represent real churches he has known or his friends have known, rather than a caricature based on ignorance and prejudice. Until I came to this blog, I honestly thought the church I went to as a teenager was fairly representative of fundamentalist Christians (those churches I have attended since about age 25 call themselves Evangelical rather than fundamentalist).
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Joel,
I suppose I could quote you statements from Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and any number of big-C Conservatives gathering in places like WorldNetDaily which demonstrate warmongering, the lack of charitable impulse, and disregard for environmental protection, but in the end these would only be anecdotes. I could dig up survey evidence about the priorities of conservatives, but I’m sure it would be biased. Let’s just stipulate that the de-coupling of spiritual pursuits from this-world responsibilities can lead — hypothetically, and only among those rare people who are not noble conservatives — to a denuded faith. We are called, after all, to be doers of the Word, and not hearers only.
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Pauline,
I don’t think you are being fair-minded in the projections you seem to be making from anecdotal experiences.
I told you that I would have opposed the approach at your old church, an approach that actually fits the grossly stereotyped generalization made by McLaren. What esle do you want?
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Tony,
#83 is an irresponsible response. I see you have run out of ideas and arguments and also out of kindness or charity.
“Warmongering?”
I see that you need to retain a straw stereotyped unkind and unfair vision of the right in order to mainatain whatever mission you are on, and you know all the mascots to name to shore up your vision.
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Joel Mark,
As I indicated above, I have come to realize that my previous generalizations were inaccurate. Until I came in contact with evangelical Christians who differed from the pattern I had learned, though, how could I know that? I had been taught to distrust any church that did not fit the same pattern, as one that had started on the slippery slope to liberalism. Perhaps I’m a slow learner, in that regard, that it took me nearly a decade to check out one of those churches I had been warned of (hint: they allowed Bible versions other than KJV). Having been brought up in a truly liberal church where I never heard the gospel, I certainly didn’t want to make the mistake of going to a liberal church in evangelical clothing.
All I was trying to do was give McLaren the benefit of the doubt, that he might have had experiences which led him to believe that such errors are more widespread than they are. If I had heard him say that about twenty years ago, when I was first considering stepping out of the church tradition I had been in since I became a Christian, I might have followed him enthusiastically as the only alternative I had heard to two extremes. (Instead I met and married a Presbyterian.)
What else do I want? Just that you consider that McLaren might not have intentionally created a straw man. I know very little of him, perhaps you know more and have good reason to think that he is intentionally presenting a caricature of evangelical faith. If he has wide experience of evangelical churches, then his statement is patently unfair. But I do know, from my own experience, that it is quite possible to go for years to churches like that and not know that there are different ones out there (that are not liberal ones or on their way to becoming liberal).
I guess what I’m trying to say, probably with too many words and not a lot of coherency, is that McLaren can be very wrong but be sincerely mistaken in his views. In which case I would not consider it appropriate to call his words deceptive, nor to suggest that he had created a straw man in order to ridicule it. I would take issue with what he said, but not speculate on his intentions in saying it.
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Tony,
I think that Al Qaida are warmongerers. You apparently think conservatives are “warmongers” (#83). Please provide examples so we can criticize them together on more solid ground rather than by using straw cliches about conservatives to make people bitter toward them.
You implied at #78 that Rush Limbaugh or Pat Robertson are “telling people what to do in their bedrooms.” Again, can you please tell me when either of those men have ever actually told anyone what they can or cannot do in their bedrooms? Maybe they have! Please provide examples.
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Pauline wrote; “All I was trying to do was give McLaren the benefit of the doubt, that he might have had experiences which led him to believe that such errors are more widespread than they are.”
Everyone has “expereinces” of all sorts, Pauline. But we are responsible for drawing fair-minded conclusions from them about others. Just by analogy, what if someone had negative experience with blacks and then attributed that negativity to all blacks? That’s an outrage, but why is it so acceptable to do that with conservatives?
Clearly, McLaren is the one who refuses to give “the benefit of doubt” to those of a traditional mindset he makes into straw to criticize them. But I know the rules; only the critics of conservatives are to be given any benefit of doubt, not conservatives themselves (which if you re-read McLaren’s quote, he did not give).
Pauline continued, “What else do I want? Just that you consider that McLaren might not have intentionally created a straw man.”
Sorry. We disagree.
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Tony –
“…Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and any number of big-C Conservatives gathering in places like WorldNetDaily…” do not speak for me or most of my conservative Christian friends.
In fact, the conservative Christians I know are quite compassionate, see war as an occasional “necessary evil” but do not like it, & are very concerned about the environment. My very conservative pastor is a fanatic about recycling.
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i got upset at Tony’s use of the word “warmongering” to describe conservatives at Worldnetdaily.
I want to say that I don’t mean anything personally to Tony, but I expected better of him. This is not a responsible criticism of decent mainstream conservatives, nor of those at Worldnetdaily. When will it occur to those on the left that those of us who may support the war do so on principle and hate the fact that it is necessary. I have sobbed over the death (in Iraq) of the son of dear friends. There is NO “mongering” about it!!! But the left often has to ridicule and demonize the right so they can apparently olr somehow feel better about their positions (at least it sure seems that way).
If you stand by that Tony, please tell us who is doing the “warmongering!”
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In an earlier comment, Reg asked if someone (Joel Mark, I think) had seen the play “Tartuffe”.
I haven’t seen it, but I’ve read it.
Tartuffe is about a dishonest minister who is taking advantage of a family.
Reg – (You rarely answer my questions, but I’ll try again.
) – Do you think that picture fits most pastors? Why did you happen to ask?
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What I got from Tartuffe (and I am slow at “getting it” if I am not reading, in other words in play or movie form, I would have to watch it several times to really get it all)
but what were a lot of parallels to my own experiences. It was the father’s devotion to his religious idol (Tartuffe) that turned away from his own family, temporarily, at least. The only thing that would break the spell, so to speak, was for the husband to hide like a mouse and see Tartuffe trying to seduce the husband’s own wife. Up to that point, no one in the whole family could reason with their father/husband.
The only answer I can give to general questions about the modern church set-up is to suggest reading Pagan Christianity; it opened my eyes to the world of confusion that I have endured all of my life, growing up in the church.
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more on Tartuffe:
The father’s inability to keep from going to extremes on everything. Something was either all good or all bad, including people. It wore him out and prevented healthy relationships; it prevented him from being able to listen and ask questions.
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Joel,
I made a terrible error, in my hasty choice of wording, that led you to believe (understandably) that I was referring to all conservatives as “warmongerers,” etc. I used some code that is clear to me, but of course not to you, which is “big-C Conservatives,” i.e., members of the political establishment centered on Washington, D.C. who have adopted the label Conservative and Republican more because it suits their purposes than because they have anything close to the value set that you hold dear. I’ve spent enough time with these people, and seen enough of how they behave in private, how they treat their families, what they do to friends and enemies alike, to have the lowest regard for them — in part because I am, believe it or not, a conservative. They have ruined that label just as the radical Left long ago ruined the word “liberal.”
So to be clear, I don’t think conservatives in general are gleeful war wagers, and I never meant to imply that you relish bloodshed.
I think where we often disagree, politically, is that I cast aspersions on this professional political class of charlatans who pretend to share “middle-America” values, and you hear it as an attack on your beliefs. I’ll try to be more careful to distinguish between the Ann Coulters and Joel Marks of the world, because there is an ocean of difference between them.
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Thanks Tony. Blessings to you.
However, I already felt confident you were not talking about me when you used that word. I was defending those whom you apparently did mean to describe as “warmongering” (whoever the “they” is in your note). I still think a more charitable stance toward them is justified. And where it isn’t justified, those cases should be criticized individually and specifically.
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Finally, I have read all 3 of Tony’s topics and every last post by everyone. I had been putting it off because the subject is a very important one and wanted time to carefully consider. Great comments all!
I detect (perhaps incorrectly) a little elitism in Tony’s comments. After slamming Arminians, I am am surprised that Tony would think that one’s occupation is somehow his own choice. Note: I am just teasing you Tony
Who can truly choose their occupation? Who can control the available opportunities that come along? Does not God’s Word apply also to slaves and prisoners and the oppressed and the suffering? Does God review their products? And I think the influence of the spouse is greatly overlooked. For me, marriage is the entire issue.
If I weren’t married my life would be completely different. My life’s dream was to study ancient languages and I would be living near Jerusalem. As it stands now, dead languages are merely a hobby and Jerusalem an occasional vacation destination.
But, because I am married to someone who does not support my dreams and aspirations, none of them will ever be fulfilled. This bothered me in my younger years, but we had children to support so I soldiered on. Does the Bible still apply when I can’t have my own way? Of course, and moreso!
I eventually decided that my marriage was my calling, as unpleasant as that often is. I decided that the tough times are God given opportunities to practice love and grace. I decided that my life’s work was to sanctify my wife and family through the Word.
I’m guessing I have maybe 20 years left to live and then I will be in heaven. Will God care more about what products I’ve produced, or a godly heritage?
And so, my work has become secondary. It does not define who I am. Who I am is father and husband. Work is merely something I do a few hours each day.
If I were honest when someone asked me what I do, I would say, “Not my will, but God’s will”. And so, the challenge for me is to find God working through the things I do not enjoy. And oddly enough, his grace is sufficient. I have found joy in the things I do not enjoy.
Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
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Xion – Beautiful post.
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