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Gender versus color
Is sexism or racism more prevalent in today’s society? According to CBS Evening News anchor Katie Couric, it’s clearly sexism:
I find myself in the last bastion of male dominance, and realizing what Hillary Clinton might have realized not long ago: that sexism in the American society is more common than racism, and certainly more acceptable or forgivable.
Her latest comments echo statements she made earlier this year regarding the “continued and accepted role of sexism” in American society, which she said was particularly evident in campaign coverage of Hillary Clinton. (See Couric’s June 11 “Reporter’s Notebook” segment and an April interview with The Washington Post.)
What do you think of Couric’s assessment?
Topic: Culture, WorldMagBlog
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back to top81 Comments to “Gender versus color”
Sexism is such a nuisance. I wish women weren’t debasing themselves by trying to be exactly like men, and that their own virtues were recognized. It’s so sexist, I think, to expect women to do everything men do. What’s so wonderful about the man that we should abandon our own gender to try to be like them?
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Does this make Katie a racist?
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I should probably stay out of this, but, Katie is one of the wealthiest women in the country. She was chosen for a top anchor spot that isn’t going to well–it must be sexism! I am certain that along the way her charms played some part in her promotions–not suggesting anything immoral. It works both ways, always has, and always will.
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It is the old dancing backwards in heels conundrum, like Clinton, when Couric took the chair many critics thought it was totally fine to diss her for her voice, her face and her clothes.
I have read–sometimes on here–comments about both saying things like, she dresses like a man. That is until either went with a bold color and then all content of what they were talking about went out the window because yellow is too hard on someone’s eye. Clinton was shrill; it is difficult for women speakers to get emphatic withou going screechy. Couric was “too perky” so she quit smiling to be more serious and people start complaining that she is too somber.
Every election year there are the obligatory articles on mens tie choices and haristyles, but they are all lumped together. Clinton had whole articles on her choice of pant suits. Unless a man does something really outrageous–like Dukakis in a helmet–a suit is a suit.
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Ah yes, the evil white male.
The same evil white males who have produced almost without exception the most advanced and fairest societies on the planet.
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I’m weary of the whole argument.
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Me, too, Michelle, and I suspect that part of the problem in both arenas is the perpetuation by the media. They do need to stay in business, after all.
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This blame shifting is as old as Adam and Eve … “The devil made me do it! It was somebody, anybody other than me!”
Curiously, the modern day Eve blames everything on Adam, whose name means MAN. Blame it all on THE MAN!
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Convince John to choose Condi Rice for his Vice-Presidential Candidate. The Republicans will then pull in three interest groups they seldom pander too.
Then he should choose Nick Peters as his designated Secretary of State. That way he can pick up the neglected whining white male interest group, another group of voters often neglected by Republicans.
Slam dunk choices to get yourselves another four years.
Never mind, hold the applause. I’m always here just to help.
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“pander to” I meant to type. But maybe the way I said it also works.
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Ms. Couric is absolutely right. And the branch of Christianity espoused by people, including women, on this board, is perhaps the foremost obstacle to equality of the sexes.
A religion grounded in fearful patriarchal blathering about unclean, evil, scheming witchy women, which still subrogates their rights to that of blobs of protoplasm, will gladly tie them down until their deformed fetus kills them, and does not even respect them enough to have them lead the smallest roadside congregation is a complete anachronism.
Religion is still much about sex; it always has been. Just ask the 9/11 terrorists, whose religion deprived them of normal sexual activity to such an extent that they were willing to kill themselves and thousands of others, just to be paid off by dozens of virgins in heaven.
Women are equally as capable as men of doing ANYTHING. It’s time evangelical leaders realize it, and stop de-personalizing and derogating the intelligence of one half of the population of the globe.
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Perhpas Katie would do well to imitate Ann Curry on NBC. I have always liked her for her soft-spoken style. I would rather have her as anchor than whiny voiced Bryan Williams.
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Looking at life through the prism of “ism” gives a very distorted view of reality. Very few voters would reject Hillary for being a woman. I would reject her for not being Margaret Thatcher. Very few would vote against Barak Obama for having an African father. I would vote against him for not being Thomas Sowell or Clarence Thomas.
It seems that those who mostly perch on the portside rails of the ship of state can’t stop their incessant chirping about sex and race. Grownups are concerned with character and a clear understanding of the consequences of their positions.
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Arcadia,
Does it work the other way too, that men can do anything women can do? Then why did God make two sexes, if we’re interchangeable?
Last I checked, only women had the privilege of bearing babies (and killing them before birth is distinctly heinous, BTW–you simply don’t murder a helpless person who depends on you for life). Last I heard, women were (usually) better at the sorts of things that requie intuition or mult-tasking, and men were (nearly always) better at those that require brute strength or undistracted focus. There are, of course, multiple other differences. They’re part of the beauty of human society, not an embarrassment we have to pretend isn’t true with stupid, false headlines like “Man Gives Birth.”
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I too lean toward sexism being more prevalent in society. On WorldMag, both are a real problem.
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Well, if Barack Obama would just agree to go in for an OPERATION, you know, he could become a she, and since he is Black to boot, he, I mean she, would then be a BLACK FEMALE, which automatically makes them Presidential material in this enlightened day and age.
And I don’t know WHY he wouldn’t agree to do it – it would virtually GUARANTEE that he, having become a she, and a Brother beside, I mean a Sister, sort of, would hit two MAJOR QUALIFICATION categories.
It isn’t that hard of an operation, either, anymore. Heck, dogs courageously go in for operations SORT of like that EVERY DAY. And they are back home chasing the cat around and peeing on the flowers within a day or two. Obama could be the SAME (I mean getting well quick, not chasing the cat and peeing on the flowers).
And since PRESUMABLY, ol’ Barack will still stay married to Michelle, why he, I mean she, will then be in a LESBIAN RELATIONSHIP, you see, which is REALLY great, and would like you know be a MAJOR PLUS with the media and all the tutu-wearing freaky goofballs on East and West Coasts (and more and more in between the coasts).
And if he, I mean she, is willing to cut a LEG off (or something) as well, why then he, I mean she, would be HANDICAPPED as well!
ALL FOUR MAJOR QAULIFICATION CATEGORIES MET! With just minimal trouble, pain, and bleeding. It would be great media drama, too – the Nation could watch the whole thing done, like on Reality TV.
And, heck, after he, I mean she, is elected, there would be no problem if he, I mean she, wants to reattach the leg and reverse the sex-change operation.
One does what one MUST to get elected these days, you know.
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I look around my company and I see a workforce that is 100% white. Not a single Asian, Hispanic, black person or any other race or culture. We are also about 65% female, yet not a single woman is in management or a supervisory role. I don’t know which is worse.
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Anlir — sounds like the backdrop to any McCain townhall meeting. An Ozzie and Harriet convention an XXL modern version that is.
Ill go with sexism
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Arcadia,
I’m just curious–Do you think there are any differences between men and women? And I’m not talking anatomy.
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As a working woman, I guess I just don’t feel discriminated against. I make what others in my field make – well, less, but most in my field are also other women. I just work for a small company in a small town. I love that I am different than my husband. I see differences everyday in my children – my son plays in vastly different ways than my daughter. These differences are part of the genetic make-up of our genders – and they are wonderful. Why do we want to make everyone the same? Each gender has wonderful strengths – they should be celebrated.
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“Is sexism or racism more prevalent in today’s society?”
Hard to say since both pale in comparison to the huge and prevaling problem of selfishness.
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#13, great post, Ken.
#11, Arcadia wrote; “Religion is still much about sex; it always has been.”
Actually, secularism is rather saturated in sex and sexuality issues and themes.
And it was also Freud, the atheist, who tended to define the personality and in some ways, reality itself, all around sex.
Christianity does regard sex as sacred, but it certainly sees asll sorts of other dimensions for the human person to seek expression and fulfillment and for the personality to develop around.
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Re: #17 & #18.
I look around at my church and I see a family that is profoundly diverse. We have African refugees from Liberia, Nigeria and Kenya. We have Hmung chidlren in school daily. We have Asians in our worship. We have African-Americans. We even have some Norwegians and Fins. Whoa, we even have a Texan who works on our staff.
I look around at my church and see small children and 90-year-olds loving each other. I see Democrats and Republicans and some none-of-the-aboves. We have singles and married couples. Hey, we even have confessed sinners here!
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Joel can you give me an example of where all different nationalities and cultures live together peacefully?
Maybe you could start in Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, Dafur, Brazil, Iraq etc.
I wonder why Yugolslavia and the Soviet Union no longer exist.
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I have noticed that more women are becoming commentators in male sports these days. This field used to be dominated by guys who could keep years of inane statistics in their heads. Now we have leggy ladies who wander around locker rooms and ask players how they feel. I almost fell out of my chair when one cutie asked Kobe Bryant how he felt about his team’s utter meltdown. He looked at her blinking trying to find words.
I don’t know which I prefer. The dames sure are attractive and the dumb questions are funny, but I wonder, “Do they really like sports or are they more interested in asserting themselves in a field that is all about men?”
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Re: #11
Arcadia nails it about (a) Christianity being a patriarchal religion and (b) religion being about sex.
Religion, and Christianity in particular, is also about power and control. That’s why I doubt the patriarchal men of Evangelicalism will give up on keeping women subjugated.
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So what you are saying, Arcadia and Anlir is that sexual deprivation causes men to fly planes into buildings?
I better go and tell my wife right away! She can potentially save thousands. Thanks Arcadia and Anlir! Woohoo!
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Drill and Xion are hittin’ on all cylanders today! Thanks, boys.
Errr, your are boys aren’t you?
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These arguments that Christianity keeps women “subjugated” are utter nonsense. I grew up in a Christian household, and am in one now. There is no subjugation of women in our households. Keep spewing this garbage if you like, but it’s completely untrue. Since you are not a Christian, Anlir, it would be hard for you to know exactly what it is all about, wouldn’t you say? Suffice it to say, you are wrong.
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You’re welcome Xion!
I’d try explaining it to you, but we both know it really wouldn’t make a hill of beans difference. Seriously.
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Anlir
Christianity is about power and control?
So should we try to be more enlightened about women and non-believers as Islam is?
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TL,
Sometimes a person is in subjugation and doesn’t even realize it because it’s all they’ve ever known. That could be your situation. But you’ll never know until you get out from under it.
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Anlir: THANKS! This is GOOD to know! I will have to tell my wife that she is subjugated.
Maybe she will stop making me pick, string, and break all these dadburn green beans.
And maybe she will stop making me clean out the stable for her horse.
But, on second thought, I don’t know.
Last time I tried suggesting along those lines, I spent a night in the barn.
I did not like it a bit, although the DOGS liked it, what with them slobbering and huffing and mooning me all night long.
But I AM glad you straightened this out for me.
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Nick,
All religions are about power and control, including Islam. And yes, under Islam, women are even worse off. But that doesn’t let Christianity off the hook in my book. (For clarification, I should say that my comment about Christianity and Evangelicalism are within the context of America.)
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Off point, but responding to Nick:
Nick wrote; “Joel can you give me an example of where all different nationalities and cultures live together peacefully?”
Some places come closer than others. Come visit our church for a starter, though we are not perfect for sure!
Now, Nick, can you name a family that does not fight or have conflicts? Maybe so! Can you give an example of where human beings of the same nationality and culture live together peacefully? Again, some may come closer than others.
Nick, if people don’t have different nationalities, cultures or skin colors to fight over, then they can fight over politics, religion, property lines between neighbors, cheating activities, false accusations, and so on.
Humanity has many more sins than just racism. We are prone to greed, pride, lying, cheating, coveting, excessive anger, and so on.
Nick, the Soviet Union no longer exists because Ronald Reagan (especially, but not on his own) stood up to them with clarity and conviction and backed up his convictions with great leadership at home. The USSR is gone now and we did not fire a shot!
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#11 – Arcadia wrote; “Women are equally as capable as men of doing ANYTHING.”
Wrong! Women are MORE capable than men are at some things (like having babies and breast-feeding them, just to name a couple).
So here’s a conservative evangelical pastor giving more respect or credit to the capacities of women than Arcadia seems to be willing to give.
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Joel Mark: Thanks.
Yep. I am male. A Subjugator, you know.
Although my coach in high school often expressed loud and vigorous disagreement on that point (me being male), at least whenever I actually touched the ball, at which point he very loudly thought I was a ‘girl’.
It was not my fault if everytime I had the ball, the other team scored. I was directionally challenged, especially without my glasses.
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Anlir – I suppose you could be right. But, since my father and my husband don’t give my mother and I lists of rules to follow, particular clothes to wear, allow us to have jobs, make decisions, contribute to the household, etc, I would be willing to bet that I am not in any way living in subjugation. Just a hunch.
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But you’ll never really know for sure, TL.
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But you’ll never really know for sure, TL.
Does anyone really know? Do feminists live under subjugation? If a Christian (such as TL) and a liberal feminist both claim to NOT live under subjugation, how can you say one is right and one is wrong?
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Anlir,
I disagree that religion is inherently about power and control, except to the extent that all human relationships and organizations are, but it is true that religion gives people who want power and control over others an effective tool to use.
That is why it is so important to remember – and act on – Jesus’ teaching that a leader must be a servant.
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Joel, Yup, I’m male, 6′4″ 270 lbs and played football. I remember seeing a guy with glasses running the other way once, but I don’t know whether that was Drill or not.
Some guys think I’m intimidating, but women never do. Maybe I have to learn about this subjugation thing.
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From an early age (3), Random Granddaughter has been considering her career options. In reverse order, she seems to lean toward becoming 3) a ferry captain, 2) a railroad engineer, or 1) a fire captain.
Now that she has reached the ripe old age of 4, she seems to be sticking with these career goals. However, I don’t want her to get “pigeonholed” by these fairly narrow and typecast possibilities, which might fall into the category of “feminist stereotypes.”
To learn how I hope to free her from being trapped by feminist stereotypes by reading to her from Beside Book of Bad Girls: Outlaw Women of the American West, waste your time at my blog at http://tiny.cc/badgirlsofoldwest
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Drill and Xion,
I’ve laughed harder today on this thread than in a long time on this fine blog. Thanks, Dudes.
I will demand no further proof of your masculinity!
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I tried not comment on my vacation but finding out I was subjugated is just too much to ignore. Boy is my husband in trouble.
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Anlir:
You’ll never know for sure that you are under subjugation to silly postmodern academic theories about power and submisson until you acquaint yourself with the facts about how people live in the real world.
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LOL, Ken!
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Golf clap for Ken! *golf clap*
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It’s all a matter of perspective. To give a few examples:
Many times women in an abusive relationship will defend it, even going so far as to blame herself for bringing on the abuse. Or she’ll claim he beats her to show his love and that it’s really not so terrible.
The women in polygamous groups like the FLDS will claim that they are happy sharing their husband with multiple other women and dressing like the cast of Little House on the Prairie.
The women in Islam will claim they are happy being forced to wear a burka and not being able to drive or speak in public.
The women in conservative Christianity will proclaim that they are content being subservient to men.
I understand that women in the above examples will proclaim that their situation is just fine and even that they enjoy it.
You can’t force people to think outside their “world”. So you do what you can and let people find things out for themselves.
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Arcadia – One of your better revisionist history pieces here. Christianity provided a significant improvement in the status of women over other surrounding or preceding cultures. It remains an improvement over other cultures.
You seem to fault Christianity for not positing that men and women are identical (rather than equal) when it is abundantly clear that they are not identical. Equality does not mean identicality and it is perfectly appropriate to make some accomodations for the differences.
Has Western culture – or Christianity – been prefect in the way women’s equality has been recognized, implemented or protected? No. And no other group of humans (if they recognize that equality at all) ever has been or ever will.
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Okay, Anlir. If you need to find this out for yourself, to think outside your world, (as you obviously should, being an enlightened liberal) why don’t you get married? I have the numbers of some nice Christian girls who’d love to meet you.
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I’ve often wondered if I had to choose between being a person of color or female, which I would choose? That’s a tough one! I just don’t know. But I do know that being white and male has given me advantages that others will never have by virtue of their skin color and their gender. I am both humbled and contrite.
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Oh, Anlir, being white and pretty with a dimple gave me advantages in my 20s, 30s and even 40s that others didn’t have, and that includes other women. Now I have the advantage of looking like someone’s mother or grandmother and people hold the door for me for other reasons. So, get real.
Just last week I was in a class where the speaker told the women to wear name badges because it’s free advertising, “men are looking “there” anyway, so why not use it to your advantage.” Perhaps he just told the truth, though I was surprised that he said what he said. I heard no complaints.
People just have to accept that they are female or male, young or old, pretty, handsome or not. That’s life. We are all drawn to different things in people. Stop trying to make people conform to some sort of androgynous standard.
Sorry, but Hillary is shrill and had she worn some colors, it would have helped her. But the real truth is, people just don’t like her. She’s an “I know it all better than you” person. There are men like that, too. No one follows them either. Katie Couric I have no real opinion on because I don’t really watch her, but there is one reporter on Dateline with a long skinny face whose voice drives me crazy, just like Mayor Bloomberg’s. Does that mean I am against their gender? Surely not. The man still has the job, so enough people must like him. Evidently, enough people don’t like Katie Couric. I did watch CBS when Pope Benedict was here, and quite frankly, what I enjoyed was that as a group the reporters didn’t say much, so I heard the music and the speaker. Can’t say that about ABC, they all talk too much. If Katie is failing, it’s probably because she can’t speak to all these different topics when the occasion arises. She seems limited. People wouldn’t call her “perky” if she knew had a little more depth.
I am subservient to no man and a Christian and a conservative. That, I hope, shoots Anlir’s theory to you know where.
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I have been outside my world. I was single until 38. I have worked for both religious and secular bosses and I have met both religious and secular sexists. The conservative religious are the gentlemanly type. “Here, dear, let me do your job for you.” They will usually back off if you are polite and persistence and know how to do your job. But the secular sexist is harder to deal with. “Dear, can you do Becky’s job for her while she and I are in Vegas for a “conference”.
Also I always used to tell the young girls I worked with, that before you complain about how the guys are treating you watch how they treat each. You will realized you’re getting off easy.
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JoelMark:I look around at my church and I see a family that is profoundly diverse. We have African refugees from Liberia, Nigeria and Kenya. We have Hmung chidlren in school daily. We have Asians in our worship. We have African-Americans. We even have some Norwegians and Fins…
None of whom (or for that matter you yourself) well ever have to spend a couple of hours a week listening to one about something that is very important to you.
Graceland: Apart from physical stature, no. I think most perceived differences are unwarranted stereotypes and results of cultural conditioning and that there is such a broad spectrum of behavioral differences across both genders that gender-wide differences are absolutely insignificant.
KRM: Your contention that Christianity somehow advanced the cause of women more than other faiths is utterly ridiculous. In 2,000 years of its history, it was only in the last 50 years that any significant portion of Christian sects even permitted a woman to stand up on her hind legs and speak.
Even today most people would be hard pressed to name one prominent female Christian leader other than maybe Joan of Arc or Carrie Nation. Just ask JoelMark’s congregation which every week foregoes and disparages the wisdom of over 1/2 of the human population.
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Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Isn’t it humorous that the apologists for Christian misogyny (JM and others) now cite chidbearing as something women are good at???
It is, according to their own faith, a punishment by their god and the second part of the punishment is that they shall be subservient to men.
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Secret memo: Nobody read it.
Not only are men different than women and women different than men, but not every woman is just like every other women (even though most have vaginas) and not every man is just like every other man (even thouse most have penises).
In fact (extra secret very highest security level rating needed to ignore it):
There are more aspects to people than their genitalia.
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“Even today most people would be hard pressed to name one prominent female Christian leader other than maybe Joan of Arc or Carrie Nation.”
1. Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist
2. Anna, Prophetess
3. Mary Magdalene, supporter of Jesus
4. Pricilla, Missionary
5. Apphia
6. Nympha
7. Chloe
8. Lydia
9. Phoebe
10. Four Daughters of Phillip
11. Monica, mother of St. Augustine
12. Catherine of Siena, helped bring the pope back to Rome, Doctor of the Church
13. Theresa of Avila, Carmelite reformer, Doctor of the Church
14. Therese Leuiex, writer, Doctor of the Church
15. Charlotte Wesley, mother of John and Charles Wesley
16. Katie Von Bora Luther. Wife of Martin Luther
17. Katherine Booth, Co founder of Salvation army
18. Princess Ogla, Brought Christianity to Russia
19. Henrietta Catherine von Gersdorf, leader in Pietism movement
20. Sarah Edwards, wife of Jonathan Edwards
21. Dorothy Sayers, writer
22. Anne Hasseltine Judson, early Baptist leader
23. Lottie Moon, early Baptist leader
24. Elizabeth Bunyan, wife of John Bunyan
25. Rachel Scammon, early Baptist leader
26. Mary Webb early Baptist leader
27. Helen Barrett Montgomery, early Baptist leader
28. Louise Celestial Fleming early Baptist leader
29. Martha Stearns Marshall, early Baptist leader
30. Joan of Kent, Supporter of Wycliffe
31. Anne of Bohemia, Supporter of Wycliffe
32. Countess Zinzendorf, Moravian leader
33. Anna Nitschmann, Moravian leader
34. Joan of Arc, French general
35. Phoebe Palmer, leader in the holiness movement
36. Amanda Berry, 19th century preacher
37. Evangeline Booth, Salvation army general
38. Mary Lee Cagle, 19th century preacher
39. Sarah Cooke missionary
40. Queen Zofie of Bohemia, supporter of Hus
41. Ruth Bell Graham, writer, wife of Billy Graham
42. Mother Teresa, founder order of Missionaries of Charity
43. Henrietta Meirs founders of Forest Home Camp Grounds
44. Macrina, early Christian founder
45. Phillis Wheatley, first major black poet in American History
46. Jarena Lee, 19th century black preacher
47. Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Pentecostal preacher
48. Maria Woodsworth-Etter, Pentecostal preacher
49. Sojoiner Truth, abolitionist
50. Frances Willard, abolitionist
51. Mary. Mother of Jesus
52. Mother Angelica, founder of EWTN
53. Pandita Ramabai, Indian reformer
54. Fanny J. Crosby, song writer
55. Edith Stein, Philosopher
56. Christianah Olatunrinle, African preacher
57. Esther Edward Burr, Daughter of Jonathan Edwards and mother of Aaron Burr
58. Amy Carmichael, Irish Missionary
59. Annie Armstrong,
60. Clare of Assisi
61. Carrie Nation
62. Dorothy Day
63. Beverley LaHaye
64. Shirley Dobson
65. Gloria Gaither
66. Helena mother of Constantine
67. Hildegard of Bingen. writer
68. Beth Moore
69. Kay Arthur
70. Mother Clara Hale
71. Julia Ward Howe, song writer, abolitionist
72. Harriet Beecher Stowe, writer, abolitionist
73. Harriet Tubman, abolitionists
74. Anne Steele, Song writer
75. Countess of Hunginton, publisher
76. Thecla, publisher
77. Juian of Norwich, writer
78. Bidget of Sweden, writer
79, Margery Kempe, writer
80. Elizabeth of Hungry, writer
81. Brigid of Ireland, founder
82. Clotilde, Queen of the Franks
83. Theodora I, Empress of Byzantine Empire
84. Queen Margaret of Scotland
85. Anna Comnena, writer
86. Gertrude the Great
87. Agnes of Bohemia
88. Elizabeth Fry, prison missionary
89. Hannah More, English abolitionist
90. Florence Nightingale, nurse
91. Anne Bradstreet, poet
92. Elizabeth Ann Seton, Teacher
93. Katherine Drexel, missionary
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I was a feminist until my mid-twenties. Faith and/or emotion are at the base of both sides of this issue. Logic will not persuade most to convert either way, because we all think we see PROOF of our opinion.
The truth is that when one looks for a specific type of evidence, one is likely to find it. (How’s that for getting around the gender/grammar problem??)
I clung to feminism because I was convinced by the proof I saw that men were patriarchal and dominating. This opinion was nurtured by the profs at the women’s college I attended. It was confirmed when my dad and brother picked at me for becoming a nut case (not only feminist, but also vegetarian!).
I married as a feminist, out-earning my younger husband, who also held feminist views. BTW, he loved that I worked harder and paid the bills. I was a “liberated” woman, chained by my vows to a “liberated” man.
What changed? I became vulnerable. I should say I realized my vulnerability. I was afraid to have children with this man who was so liberated that he wouldn’t grow up and take responsibility.
He finally woke up to his God-given responsibility to provide for his wife and any future children.
Our immaturity in our professed faith had made us determined to mix up God’s order just to prove how progressive we were. But morning sickness and lack of chemistry for a weak man were a couple of the tools God used to show us that His plan for men and women is wiser and vastly superior to the androgenous roles-are-up-for-grabs approach in many marriages.
We are still married nearly 17 years later, and our marriage is strong and sweet. I am happy to be freed from the bondage of being liberated to do both my job and his. I cheerfully admit to obeying my strong husband who leads with kindness and thoughtfulness. I would not trade places with my young feminist self for anything.
I have experienced the difference in living my way and God’s way. He proved Himself.
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Arcadia: It’s not the childbirth that’s the result of Eve’s sin — it’s the PAIN of childbirth that is the punishment.
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#49 – meaningless sweeping generalizations about women. Anlir is unable to see diversity in how women feel, so he projects stereotypical attitudes on them as if they were mindless.
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#55, Arcadia wrote in response to my previous post; “None of whom (or for that matter you yourself) well ever have to spend a couple of hours a week listening to one about something that is very important to you.”
I’m not sure what you are saying, but I will tell you that I spend countless hours listening to our African refugees and others, and being listened to respectfully. I do their weddings and marriage counseling with them. They come to me for family guidance. I do funerals for them. I laugh and cry with them. I work with their children. I am in their homes. And all the same goes for all our diverse church members.
Arcadia added, “Just ask JoelMark’s congregation which every week foregoes and disparages the wisdom of over 1/2 of the human population.”
Disparages over 1/2 of the human population??? What a baseless dogmatic (and absurdly false) presumption about our church. But some leftists get most dogmatic when making claims they could not possibly have the slightest idea about. When attacking someone or something you don’t know at all, just pound harder and clinch your teeth tighter, Arcadia.
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No one has answered my question about men, what’s so great about them that we girls should do what they do. And who are all these men to talk about this? Shouldn’t they be listening to what we girls are saying instead of telling us we’re all blind? We’re the girls after all. It just shows, I guess, that even the most enlightened of men are sexist.
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#58, KBELLS, I loved your list!
To see a book review I published on a biography about Amy Carmichael (”A Chance to Die: The Life and Legend of Amy Carmichael,” by Elizabeth Elliot), go to:
http://www.campuscrosswalk.org/2004-fall-14.html
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Momof5, thanks for telling your story! I know so many men who in the interest of “equality” simply will not lead. It lets the man off the hook and doesn’t help his wife. I’m a single woman, but now in a church with strong men, and the women feel safer and more protected, and ironically more free, than at any other church I’ve ever attended.
Anlir, I really don’t think it’s possible for you to understand. You live outside the way God created men in so many ways that you can only guess what it’s like to be in the safe place of being under God’s authority and protection. But if you want a quick test, look at the faces of feminist women and of submissive Christian women, and see if you can see a difference in happiness and contentment. I’m guessing you’ll be shocked if you really study just this one area, the countenance of “free” feminists and “subservient” Christians. I for one know just by looking that I don’t want what the feminists are selling.
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KBELLS, I think I can say I was familiar with half the names, at #58 – just because I love Christian history.
I sure hope there is no one on this blog who is desperately driven to go back and dig through private letters to meticulously judge the orthodoxy of those leading Christian women to debunk their alleged status as “Christians.”
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Thanks, Cheryl! After I posted, I wondered if that was TMI…
Your point about the contrast in countenance is a great one. Submissive Christian women still struggle (we all will until Heaven), but the contrast I’ve observed is striking.
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Thanks Joel Mark.
94. Elizabeth Elliot
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66. Then let that person come up with the same number of men who meet the same standards.
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We’ve had
2 female Secretaries of State
1 female Speaker of the House
2 female Supreme Court Justices
many female Senators, Representatives, Governors, Olympic athletes, CEOs, etc.
Wow! Sexism really held them all back.
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Yup – kbells, I was going to add Elizabeth Elliot; also Lucy Swindol.
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How about Deborah – judge in the OT?
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Kbells: I have heard of perhaps 15 of your purported religious leaders. Mostly those whose husbands are known religious leaders who are perceived to have advanced the theology of their faiths. (With all due respect, when one mentions the names Dobson, Graham, Luther, Edwards and LaHaye, the images which come to mind are hardly female). And there are a few who became known in other fields.
The simple truth is that NOT A SINGLE ONE of these supposed religious leaders would be allowed to stand up in Joel Mark’s church and preach the gospel. Nor could they ever be in a position to make any major decision concerning the church. He would not let them. Nor would they be allowed to preach in a Catholic church, or in a host of other Christian sects’ churches, or, for that matter in a synagogue.
True or false Joel?? And, by the way, what did your god mean when told women that their husbands shall rule over them?
Outkast: That was truly pathetic. Why don’t you take a crack at the same question.
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Arcadia, how many folks do you think would be allowed to preach at Joel Mark’s church? Do you think that every male would be allowed to do so?
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Momof5: Thanks for your testimony. But, if morning sickness is your god’s way of showing women the way, why do only some get it? Or is it only god’s way of punishing women for the sins of weak men??? If a submissive woman gets bad morning sickness does that mean she should take charge?
After all, please recall that it is your god who also punishes women by making them eat their babies.
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Galadriel, I don’t know if this answers your question, but there are a lot of things men do — and even like to do — that would never interest me in a million years simply because I’m a girl.
What feminists wanted (and this is a mild interpretation) was to give women the opportunity to do what they want to do. I have often thought it would have been great if their movement had started a decade earlier, that I would have been taught more cabinetmaking skills by my dad. I think I might have had a great business designing kitchens or furniture, maybe even building a house.
Where the feminists went wrong was to insist that everyone be “equal.” This is the same mistake liberals are still making. The truth is everyone is different. They should have left it at equal opportunity instead of insisting that women act like men. They didn’t help men any either.
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Arcadia
We women are charged by God not to preach. “…women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.” (1 Corinthians 14:34)
Can you give me a single verse that says, “Husbands, rule over you wives” ? Here’s one to chew on: “The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.”(1Cor. 7:4) Or how about this: “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her…” (Ephesians 5:25) So our husbands belong to us just as much as we belong to them. Not only that, but our husbands should be willing to DIE for us, even if we don’t deserve it.
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Arcadia, the fact that you never heard of these ladies is more an indictment of your bad secular education than of my Christian education. Trust me, I knew who Annie Armstrong was long before I knew who Jonathan Edwards was. Also, why does having a husband who is also a leader cancel one’s influence. The Christian community has brought together quite a few very effective husband/wife teams. Will you only accept the names of single women or women with house husbands?
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And Arcadia a couple of the women on that list have spoken at my church.
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At our church we encourage each other to preach at all times, and if necessary, use words.
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Re: #60
From a literal reading of the KJV Bible, it’s “sorrow” that is the curse on women.
Genesis 3:16-17
“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life…”
The same word, “sorrow” is used for Eve and Adam.
Now, of course, I’m not disputing that there is pain in childbirth, only that it may part of childbirth even prior to the Fall. Birthing a 15 inch head is not going be easy.
Because of a broken relationship between God and man, there is brokenness in everything. Women no longer trusts their bodies to do what God intended. Instead of relaxing, we tense up our bodies and that causes us to feel more pain. Instead of accepting the laboring process, we want the doctors to tell us what to do, give us pain killers so we can’t feel our muscles to push and many times all those medical interventions lead to C-sections. All those are sorrowful things. Not just the pain.
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